Household Formation Is Destiny
April 14, 2023 2:11 AM Subscribe
Home-based workers became younger, more diverse in pandemic - "People working from home became younger, more diverse, better educated and more likely to move during the worst part of the COVID-19 pandemic, according to survey data from the U.S. Census Bureau." (More People in All Race/Ethnic Groups Worked From Home 2019-2021) [CW: link-heavy FPP]
U.S. Demographics: Largest 5-year cohorts, and Ten most Common Ages in 2022 - "This graph, based on the 2022 population estimate, shows the U.S. population by age in July 2022 according to the Census Bureau. Note that the largest age group is in the early-to-mid 30s. There is also a large cohort in their early 20s... Note the younger baby boom generation dominated in 2010. In 2022 the millennials had taken over and the boomers are off the list. This is why - a number of years ago - I was so positive on housing."
Current State of the Housing Market; Overview for mid-April - "In April 2021, the payment on a $500,000 house, with a 20% down payment and 3.06% 30-year mortgage rates, would be around $1,699 for principal and interest. The monthly payment for the same house, with house prices up 23% over two years and mortgage rates at 6.42%, would be $3,084 - an increase of 81%."
Tinder, Bumble, Grindr: This dating app hack works on all of them. [link removed by Mods] - "Dropping my salary expectation multiple times failed to bring any improvement. I dutifully dated one of the two for a couple of years before flinging 50 percent of my fish back into the sea. By that point, I was in my early 30s, desperate to produce a sibling for my daughter, and even more desperate to stop paying rent on my own... A first date in a grubby London watering hole on Rosh Hashana was a formality. Our daughter was born 18 months later, and he remains mildly amused that I ever thought he'd merely be my second-best option."
More Married Couples Earn Equal Pay, Few Do Equal Housework [ungated] - "The economics of marriage are changing, but women still take on more of the unpaid labor."
- Yes, it's OK to be mad about crime in San Francisco - "Let's not make excuses for Chaos City."
- The Dangerous Rise of 'Front-Yard Politics' - "Many public crusaders are private reactionaries."
- Why People Are Fleeing Blue Cities for Red States - "When you look inside the red states at where the growth is occurring, you notice immediately that the dynamism is not mostly in the red parts of the red states. The growth is in the metro areas — which are often blue cities in red states."
U.S. Demographics: Largest 5-year cohorts, and Ten most Common Ages in 2022 - "This graph, based on the 2022 population estimate, shows the U.S. population by age in July 2022 according to the Census Bureau. Note that the largest age group is in the early-to-mid 30s. There is also a large cohort in their early 20s... Note the younger baby boom generation dominated in 2010. In 2022 the millennials had taken over and the boomers are off the list. This is why - a number of years ago - I was so positive on housing."
Current State of the Housing Market; Overview for mid-April - "In April 2021, the payment on a $500,000 house, with a 20% down payment and 3.06% 30-year mortgage rates, would be around $1,699 for principal and interest. The monthly payment for the same house, with house prices up 23% over two years and mortgage rates at 6.42%, would be $3,084 - an increase of 81%."
Tinder, Bumble, Grindr: This dating app hack works on all of them. [link removed by Mods] - "Dropping my salary expectation multiple times failed to bring any improvement. I dutifully dated one of the two for a couple of years before flinging 50 percent of my fish back into the sea. By that point, I was in my early 30s, desperate to produce a sibling for my daughter, and even more desperate to stop paying rent on my own... A first date in a grubby London watering hole on Rosh Hashana was a formality. Our daughter was born 18 months later, and he remains mildly amused that I ever thought he'd merely be my second-best option."
More Married Couples Earn Equal Pay, Few Do Equal Housework [ungated] - "The economics of marriage are changing, but women still take on more of the unpaid labor."
Even when women earn as much as their husbands, they still put in around two more hours a week on caregiving than their husbands do, plus another 2.5 hours more on housework, according to Pew. In those same relationships, men spend nearly 3.5 more hours on leisure activities, such as watching television or playing videogames, than their wives do...More women are out-earning their husbands but still picking up a heavier load at home - "The share of women who earn as much as or significantly more than their husbands has roughly tripled over the last half-century, according to a new Pew Research Center survey. But as women's financial contributions increase, they still pick up a heavier load when it comes to household chores and caregiving responsibilities, the report also found."
Spouses within same-sex couples, however, tend to split the domestic labor more equally than their heterosexual counterparts, research shows. Some researchers say one reason for the housework divide is that most of these gender roles have been built up over generations. There is a fear from some women that stopping this work could risk their marriage.
Today, 55% of opposite sex marriages have a husband who is the primary or sole breadwinner, down from 85% 50 years ago, Pew found. Now, both spouses earn about the same amount of money in nearly one-third, or 29%, of such marriages, up from only 11% in 1972. And about 16% of opposite-sex marriages have a breadwinner wife, a jump from just 5% five decades ago, the analysis found.Why An Aging Population Might Not Doom The American Economy - "Like people in most developed countries, Americans are living longer and having fewer children. That has meant a shrinking pool of workers in recent decades — and a burgeoning cohort of Americans moving into retirement. According to one recent estimate from the Congressional Budget Office, the share of Americans age 65 or older is expected to grow faster over the next 30 years than the share of Americans between the ages of 25 and 54 — referred to as 'prime working age.' A 2017 projection from the U.S. Census Bureau found that by 2060, nearly a quarter of all Americans will be of retirement age — up from 15 percent in 2016."[2]
Women are achieving increasing levels of education, making them more likely to out-earn their husbands, according to Richard Fry, a senior researcher at Pew. But as women’s financial contributions increase, they still pick up a heavier load when it comes to household chores and caregiving responsibilities, the report also found...
Age, race and family size also play a role, the Pew report found, with Black women, as well as older women and women without children, more likely to be the breadwinners. Many studies show that women shoulder the brunt of the responsibilities at home, regardless of their financial contributions.
In concert, those two forces suggest the coming decades will see fewer Americans working and more who need caregiving, creating a potentially crushing burden on the U.S. economy and welfare system. What’s unclear, though, is just how big of a deal that is for America’s economic future, as a lot hinges on what policymakers do in the coming years to beat back Father Time. For now, the good news is that America has a lot of time to solidify its approach to dealing with an aging population — and its existing welfare system is, perhaps surprisingly, resilient to the coming economic winds of change.It's Not 'Deaths of Despair.' It's Deaths of Children. [ungated] - Deaths among children are now driving the country's life expectancy declines."[3,4,5]
And the death rates are growing at a startling speed. According to that March JAMA essay, the death rate among America’s youths increased by 10.7 percent from 2019 to 2020 and 8.3 percent from 2020 to 2021. The phenomenon was more pronounced among older children and adolescents, but the death rate among those age 1 to 9 increased by 8.4 percent from 2020 to 2021, and almost none of that effect was the result of the pandemic itself.A Tale Of Two Countries - "What a life expectancy map tells us about the state of the US right now."
The pandemic years look even grimmer when we examine pediatric mortality by cause. Guns were responsible for almost half of the increase from 2019 to 2020, as homicides among children age 10 to 19 grew more than 39 percent. Deaths from drug overdoses for that age cohort more than doubled. In 2021, as schools reopened, pediatric deaths from Covid nearly doubled but still accounted for only one-fifth of the increase in overall pediatric deaths — a large increase on top of the previous year’s even larger one.
The disparities are remarkable and striking, as well. Most of the increase in pediatric mortality was among males, with female deaths making only a small jump. Almost two-thirds of the victims of homicide were non-Hispanic Black youths 10 to 19, who had a homicide rate six times as high as that of Hispanic children and teenagers, and more than 20 times as high as that of white children and teenagers. In recent years, the authors of the JAMA essay write, deaths from overdose were higher among white children and teenagers, but increases in the death rates among Black and Hispanic children and teenagers erased that gap, statistically speaking, in 2020.
I think you can make the case that life expectancy at birth is the single most revealing datapoint for measuring how well a nation or region is functioning—more revelatory than GDP or educational attainment, or any other yardstick. If you’re trying to get a sense of how well a given society is doing, asking how long people live on average is a great place to start.Abortion Pill Battle Threatens to Further Box In GOP [ungated] - "Should Americans lose access to mifepristone, it would further ostracize young voters, independents and suburban women, who Republicans must win over."[1] (Florida House passes six-week abortion ban backed by DeSantis)
Viewed by that standard, the life expectancy map of the US tells a tale of two countries. The gap between the US county with the highest life expectancy—Summit County, Colorado, with an LE of nearly 87—and the lowest—Oglala Lakota County in South Dakota—is a full twenty years. Overall, the United States ranks about 50th in life expectancy worldwide, but if coastal, urban America broke off and formed its own country, it might well rank in the top ten. If Appalachia formed its own country, it would be about 70th in the world rankings, roughly in the same league as Algeria and Iran.
If you know something about the history, the map is an extraordinary display of one of the most important demographic trends of the past two centuries: the great reversal of urban/rural health outcomes—a transformation that began with Snow and Farr’s work in the middle of the 19th century. A century and half ago, the most deadly places to live in industrialized countries were the big cities. Today it’s the countryside that kills you.
- Texas governor seeks to pardon man found guilty of murdering Black Lives Matter protester - "I think what we have seen emerge in the United States is a political formation for which we can use legitimately, with historical reference, the F-word, fascism, which is to say, it's a kind of celebration of violence."
- A Texas County Keeps Libraries Open Amid Battle Over Books - "A federal judge had ordered Llano County to return about a dozen books to its shelves."
- American Library Association report shows book bans and challenges surged in 2022 - "Deborah Caldwell is director of the American Library Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom and the Freedom to Read Foundation."
I guess I should clarify - sure jobs may be unfilled and production of real goods may go down, but the same or greater amount of money will be flitting around between finance companies, and that's the same thing as the economy doing well and growing.
Right?
posted by jellywerker at 5:42 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Right?
posted by jellywerker at 5:42 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
The piece about the dating algorithms was interesting in theory, but the author began the piece by making fun of a date's height. It felt meanspirited and ruined the piece for me.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:42 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 6:42 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
> The piece about the dating algorithms was interesting in theory, but the author began the piece by making fun of a date's height. It felt meanspirited and ruined the piece for me.
I don't want to derail the whole thing to be about that dating piece but a quick scan of the author's twitter shows she's a proud resident of TERF island, regularly posting about "gender critical" issues. The bad taste it left in my mouth confirmed by the barf quality of some of her posts. Glad she found her mate, though!
I am really fascinated by how the world has changed since the pandemic showed that the internet means many jobs have no need to be done in an office (and are even done more efficiently and productively from home) and how this has lead to a weird new class distinction between those who have the luxury to stay at home all day and those who can only afford shelter by spending most of their day outside of it doing the work that makes the world function for those who can stay inside. It's an ominous echo of sci fi tropes about ground dwellers and people who can live in the rarefied heights and luxury of the sky cities. This distinction will probably only continue to widen, as a new generation emerges split between those who were raised with the constant attention of a two-parent work-from-home family and the latch key kids whose parents, with four jobs between them, are never at home.
posted by dis_integration at 7:03 AM on April 14, 2023 [18 favorites]
I don't want to derail the whole thing to be about that dating piece but a quick scan of the author's twitter shows she's a proud resident of TERF island, regularly posting about "gender critical" issues. The bad taste it left in my mouth confirmed by the barf quality of some of her posts. Glad she found her mate, though!
I am really fascinated by how the world has changed since the pandemic showed that the internet means many jobs have no need to be done in an office (and are even done more efficiently and productively from home) and how this has lead to a weird new class distinction between those who have the luxury to stay at home all day and those who can only afford shelter by spending most of their day outside of it doing the work that makes the world function for those who can stay inside. It's an ominous echo of sci fi tropes about ground dwellers and people who can live in the rarefied heights and luxury of the sky cities. This distinction will probably only continue to widen, as a new generation emerges split between those who were raised with the constant attention of a two-parent work-from-home family and the latch key kids whose parents, with four jobs between them, are never at home.
posted by dis_integration at 7:03 AM on April 14, 2023 [18 favorites]
Thanks for confirming my sense of "ick" on that one.
"In April 2021, the payment on a $500,000 house, with a 20% down payment and 3.06% 30-year mortgage rates, would be around $1,699 for principal and interest. The monthly payment for the same house, with house prices up 23% over two years and mortgage rates at 6.42%, would be $3,084 - an increase of 81%."
All of the charts and graphs in that piece about housing are interesting, but this bit that got quoted in the main FPP above just really confirms how much harder things got, very fast, for first time buyers especially. It seems really unworkable for it to stay like that, but I'm not sure what would give way -- inventory is still limited and at least around here I don't seen any signs (so far at least) of serious price drops.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:19 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
"In April 2021, the payment on a $500,000 house, with a 20% down payment and 3.06% 30-year mortgage rates, would be around $1,699 for principal and interest. The monthly payment for the same house, with house prices up 23% over two years and mortgage rates at 6.42%, would be $3,084 - an increase of 81%."
All of the charts and graphs in that piece about housing are interesting, but this bit that got quoted in the main FPP above just really confirms how much harder things got, very fast, for first time buyers especially. It seems really unworkable for it to stay like that, but I'm not sure what would give way -- inventory is still limited and at least around here I don't seen any signs (so far at least) of serious price drops.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:19 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Seems really unworkable for it to stay like that" has been the story of Toronto real estate for 20+ years now, and a couple of minor and short-lived dips aside it still is. By the end of this decade we might see a listing with an infinity symbol.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:24 AM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:24 AM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Red States/blue cities article: This is the only pertinent fact.
The growing states also have fewer restrictions on home construction. That contributes to lower housing prices. The median home price in those 10 population-gaining states is an average of 23 percent less than that of the 10 biggest population-losing states.
Also, again, it doesn't matter if they are moving to blue cities in red states. The amount of political change is pretty low, and it makes an assumption that people from blue states are interested/excited about blue policies, but the evidence is pretty mixed about that. Often they are straight up pissed about liberal/blue state policies that forced them from their homes, and vote against progressive polices in their new homes.
You'd think the latest census with many blue states losing house representation would mean something would drastically change, but no not really. Montana is leading the US in housing liberalization policy while the California government 's more housing-progressive policies are being fought by both blue and red cities.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:01 AM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
The growing states also have fewer restrictions on home construction. That contributes to lower housing prices. The median home price in those 10 population-gaining states is an average of 23 percent less than that of the 10 biggest population-losing states.
Also, again, it doesn't matter if they are moving to blue cities in red states. The amount of political change is pretty low, and it makes an assumption that people from blue states are interested/excited about blue policies, but the evidence is pretty mixed about that. Often they are straight up pissed about liberal/blue state policies that forced them from their homes, and vote against progressive polices in their new homes.
You'd think the latest census with many blue states losing house representation would mean something would drastically change, but no not really. Montana is leading the US in housing liberalization policy while the California government 's more housing-progressive policies are being fought by both blue and red cities.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:01 AM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
People working from home became younger, more diverse, better educated
Damn, I'm really missing out!
posted by aws17576 at 8:14 AM on April 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
Damn, I'm really missing out!
posted by aws17576 at 8:14 AM on April 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
dis_integration, I feel like I see the opposite just as much - the c-suite and management stay in the office and have a much more casual culture, whereas the low-paid workers are expected to work from home, submit to various monitoring to facilitate that, and end up atomized, easily-replaceable units of labour.
Personally, I don't really think I'm getting a ton of benefit from being home all day - I don't see how it's any more of a "luxury" than a company paying for my work PC.
posted by sagc at 8:14 AM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Personally, I don't really think I'm getting a ton of benefit from being home all day - I don't see how it's any more of a "luxury" than a company paying for my work PC.
posted by sagc at 8:14 AM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Personally, I don't really think I'm getting a ton of benefit from being home all day - I don't see how it's any more of a "luxury" than a company paying for my work PC.
I'm running a load of dishes and a load of laundry right now. Both things took less than 10 mins to get started. I'll put everything away and take a shower at "lunch" time, then actually eat food while sitting in front of my computer, available for doing work. At the end of the day all of my boringest life tasks will be completed. I can wake up later because there's no commute, and start my weekend at exactly 5pm with no commute, not even any chores left to do.
Working from home has improved my life so dramatically I will never ever take a fully (or even mostly) on site job ever again.
posted by phunniemee at 8:20 AM on April 14, 2023 [38 favorites]
I'm running a load of dishes and a load of laundry right now. Both things took less than 10 mins to get started. I'll put everything away and take a shower at "lunch" time, then actually eat food while sitting in front of my computer, available for doing work. At the end of the day all of my boringest life tasks will be completed. I can wake up later because there's no commute, and start my weekend at exactly 5pm with no commute, not even any chores left to do.
Working from home has improved my life so dramatically I will never ever take a fully (or even mostly) on site job ever again.
posted by phunniemee at 8:20 AM on April 14, 2023 [38 favorites]
Personally, I don't really think I'm getting a ton of benefit from being home all day - I don't see how it's any more of a "luxury" than a company paying for my work PC.
What? You can schedule things, like packages, repairmen, cleaners, etc between 8-5 without having to take a day off. You have no commute expenses, which is approximately equivalent to getting a raise equal to your commuting costs. You can dress how you want, which means your 'office clothes/uniform' budget is dramatically lower. It's definitely a luxury.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:21 AM on April 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
Personally, I don't really think I'm getting a ton of benefit from being home all day - I don't see how it's any more of a "luxury" than a company paying for my work PC.
Every thread about WFH eventually devolves into "people are different and need different things." And it also devolves into "turns out not all jobs are the same job."
For me, gaining fully 2.5 hours a day that I used to lose to commuting feels hella luxurious. Sitting in a chair I chose at a desk in a quiet, sunlit room, instead of in a freezing cold, badly-lit, jam-packed "open office" with another person less than two feet away from me at all times also feels hella luxurious. Being able to hang out with pets while I work feels almost miraculous. Not having to spend a bunch of time crammed cheek by jowl with a bunch of people I don't particularly like? FANbloodyTASTIC.
Obviously, some people had good jobs in nice offices. I never did, but I heard tell about them. Some people lived close to those offices. I never could afford that, but I heard tell about walking five minutes to work every day. (Mostly, I heard about that from the rich assholes who laid me off time and time again.) Obviously, some people have coworkers that don't pepper them with endless microaggressions or just general unpleasantness.
In a sane world people would just have some fucking options, but we can't have that, we can only all-or-nothing it. Because we suck.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:21 AM on April 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
Every thread about WFH eventually devolves into "people are different and need different things." And it also devolves into "turns out not all jobs are the same job."
For me, gaining fully 2.5 hours a day that I used to lose to commuting feels hella luxurious. Sitting in a chair I chose at a desk in a quiet, sunlit room, instead of in a freezing cold, badly-lit, jam-packed "open office" with another person less than two feet away from me at all times also feels hella luxurious. Being able to hang out with pets while I work feels almost miraculous. Not having to spend a bunch of time crammed cheek by jowl with a bunch of people I don't particularly like? FANbloodyTASTIC.
Obviously, some people had good jobs in nice offices. I never did, but I heard tell about them. Some people lived close to those offices. I never could afford that, but I heard tell about walking five minutes to work every day. (Mostly, I heard about that from the rich assholes who laid me off time and time again.) Obviously, some people have coworkers that don't pepper them with endless microaggressions or just general unpleasantness.
In a sane world people would just have some fucking options, but we can't have that, we can only all-or-nothing it. Because we suck.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:21 AM on April 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
Yikes. I'm not here to take anyone's WFH privileges, y'all.
Mostly, I just wanted to push back on the idea that there's a clear line between working-from-home "haves" vs working-in-offices "have nots". I don't think it breaks down quite like that.
I will, as I have every time this comes up, remind people that things like dishwashers, a quiet environment, hell, even an ergonomic place to work from - those all aren't universal!
posted by sagc at 8:35 AM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Mostly, I just wanted to push back on the idea that there's a clear line between working-from-home "haves" vs working-in-offices "have nots". I don't think it breaks down quite like that.
I will, as I have every time this comes up, remind people that things like dishwashers, a quiet environment, hell, even an ergonomic place to work from - those all aren't universal!
posted by sagc at 8:35 AM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you look at these success stories you see they are actually the product of a red-blue mash-up. Republicans at the state level provide the general business climate, but Democrats at the local level influence the schools, provide many social services and create a civic atmosphere that welcomes diversity and attracts highly educated workers.
Well, yes. A business's incentives are to cut costs as much as possible, which means low taxes and lax regulations. An employee's incentives are to live somewhere affordable, safe, and pleasant.
Until recently, the daily experience of living in a blue city in a red state wasn't that much different than living in a blue city in a blue state, as long as you were fairly well-off and not affected by the lack of social services. The cost of living might also be lower (though not always). Republican state governments were reigned in by federal courts and federal law, so while they have always wanted to drive us off the cliff into a white supremacist theocracy, there was some security in knowing that there were at least some brakes.
(pause for internal screaming)
The fundamental flaw of this article is that the writer thinks employees moving to these states do so because the low taxes and lax regulations make them better places to live. No, it makes them better for business, and it does not follow that better for business is better for everyone. The writer sees the growth of businesses in these cities as an endorsement of the state-level politics.
Like, nothing about the growth of these cities tells us that this is where taxes and regulation "should" be. It just means that it's cheaper to do business in Texas than California. Businesses will always seek lower costs; there is no floor, they do not care of the ways in which they achieve those lower costs are good for people or for society. Boomtowns throughout history have been rife with worker exploitation and disasters and the mere fact of their growth does not mean that their politics were ideal.
It's an interesting blind spot on the author's part. Intentional? Dunno.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:43 AM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Well, yes. A business's incentives are to cut costs as much as possible, which means low taxes and lax regulations. An employee's incentives are to live somewhere affordable, safe, and pleasant.
Until recently, the daily experience of living in a blue city in a red state wasn't that much different than living in a blue city in a blue state, as long as you were fairly well-off and not affected by the lack of social services. The cost of living might also be lower (though not always). Republican state governments were reigned in by federal courts and federal law, so while they have always wanted to drive us off the cliff into a white supremacist theocracy, there was some security in knowing that there were at least some brakes.
(pause for internal screaming)
The fundamental flaw of this article is that the writer thinks employees moving to these states do so because the low taxes and lax regulations make them better places to live. No, it makes them better for business, and it does not follow that better for business is better for everyone. The writer sees the growth of businesses in these cities as an endorsement of the state-level politics.
Like, nothing about the growth of these cities tells us that this is where taxes and regulation "should" be. It just means that it's cheaper to do business in Texas than California. Businesses will always seek lower costs; there is no floor, they do not care of the ways in which they achieve those lower costs are good for people or for society. Boomtowns throughout history have been rife with worker exploitation and disasters and the mere fact of their growth does not mean that their politics were ideal.
It's an interesting blind spot on the author's part. Intentional? Dunno.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:43 AM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Mostly, I just wanted to push back on the idea that there's a clear line between working-from-home "haves" vs working-in-offices "have nots". I don't think it breaks down quite like that.
It's that there is a clear line between the relatively small percentage of people who have the option to work from home, and the much larger percentage of people who don't have that option. Someone with the option may instead choose to work from an office, but the person who either has a job that can only be done in person (like retail or the trades, say), or who works for a company that mandates in-office work, can't choose to work from home.
It's less of a question of "what is better?" since that varies by person, and more "are you able to make that decision for yourself?". But, it is telling that highly-educated and -paid white collar workers increasingly see this as a major perk to hold onto.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:20 AM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's that there is a clear line between the relatively small percentage of people who have the option to work from home, and the much larger percentage of people who don't have that option. Someone with the option may instead choose to work from an office, but the person who either has a job that can only be done in person (like retail or the trades, say), or who works for a company that mandates in-office work, can't choose to work from home.
It's less of a question of "what is better?" since that varies by person, and more "are you able to make that decision for yourself?". But, it is telling that highly-educated and -paid white collar workers increasingly see this as a major perk to hold onto.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:20 AM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I will, as I have every time this comes up, remind people that things like dishwashers, a quiet environment, hell, even an ergonomic place to work from - those all aren't universal!
sagc
But time is. It's the one universal constant that works the same for all people.
And that's the ultimate benefit of WFH or even just hybrid models: you get some precious time back. All the other benefits people list above are incidental to that. Even a good commute of around 30 minutes each way means an hour of every day is just gone. Gone and not even compensated for! And that's on top of all the other time you waste getting ready for the office and at the office.
This is why I struggle to believe there even are other points of view on working from home. It gives you back some of your time, the one thing there literally can't ever be more of. No other concern or preference could possibly outweigh that.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:31 AM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
sagc
But time is. It's the one universal constant that works the same for all people.
And that's the ultimate benefit of WFH or even just hybrid models: you get some precious time back. All the other benefits people list above are incidental to that. Even a good commute of around 30 minutes each way means an hour of every day is just gone. Gone and not even compensated for! And that's on top of all the other time you waste getting ready for the office and at the office.
This is why I struggle to believe there even are other points of view on working from home. It gives you back some of your time, the one thing there literally can't ever be more of. No other concern or preference could possibly outweigh that.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:31 AM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
And let's not forget that for immunocompromised people, working from home can be a literal life saver.
(Speaking of, if anyone has any leads on a WFH job, I desperately need one).
posted by MrVisible at 9:47 AM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
(Speaking of, if anyone has any leads on a WFH job, I desperately need one).
posted by MrVisible at 9:47 AM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
In my usual role as weird outlier, I have a counterpoint to the "WFH gives you back some of your time" argument.
As someone who had a long daily train+walk commute, I gain flexibility - it's much easier to choose to go to bed at ten if you're not still on a train home at that time - but I don't really gain time, as such. For one thing, most of that commute time was spent in ways I enjoyed (reading, language study, walking). For another, working from home, I put in a lot more hours at the desk, because I don't have good boundaries, and neither do I have helpful cues like people around me getting up to leave or inviting me to come to the pub. I would say I've had a lot less free time since switching to full-time WFH. And yes, that's on me - but I'm definitely not unique in having those blurred boundaries.
I do gain an effective gross pay rise of about £11,000, which is considerable. And there are plenty of other reasons why I would find it hard to go back to the office.
But what I lose completely is in-person contact with other human beings. I live alone, my family is scattered around the country, and as I don't know how to make friends other than through work, my friends are at the other end of that long train commute. I think for a lot of people, that would outweigh everything else. Even time.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 9:54 AM on April 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
As someone who had a long daily train+walk commute, I gain flexibility - it's much easier to choose to go to bed at ten if you're not still on a train home at that time - but I don't really gain time, as such. For one thing, most of that commute time was spent in ways I enjoyed (reading, language study, walking). For another, working from home, I put in a lot more hours at the desk, because I don't have good boundaries, and neither do I have helpful cues like people around me getting up to leave or inviting me to come to the pub. I would say I've had a lot less free time since switching to full-time WFH. And yes, that's on me - but I'm definitely not unique in having those blurred boundaries.
I do gain an effective gross pay rise of about £11,000, which is considerable. And there are plenty of other reasons why I would find it hard to go back to the office.
But what I lose completely is in-person contact with other human beings. I live alone, my family is scattered around the country, and as I don't know how to make friends other than through work, my friends are at the other end of that long train commute. I think for a lot of people, that would outweigh everything else. Even time.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 9:54 AM on April 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
This is why I struggle to believe there even are other points of view on working from home. It gives you back some of your time, the one thing there literally can't ever be more of. No other concern or preference could possibly outweigh that.
Well, a bunch of things have outweighed it at various times in my life, but the above doesn't exactly read like someone interested in other opinions.
posted by sagc at 9:59 AM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Well, a bunch of things have outweighed it at various times in my life, but the above doesn't exactly read like someone interested in other opinions.
posted by sagc at 9:59 AM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Mostly, I just wanted to push back on the idea that there's a clear line between working-from-home "haves" vs working-in-offices "have nots". I don't think it breaks down quite like that.
I don't think it's a clear bright unbreakable line, but it is not really controversial to note that a coder who can WFH is on average much better compensated by things OTHER than the WFH privilege than a McDonald's cashier who absolutely cannot WFH.
Of course there is nuance to it; there are also very highly paid doctors who must go into medical facilities every day, and knowledge workers who aren't paid very much at all. But the lowest paid jobs are almost always very much onsite-mandatory jobs, and this is worth addressing. WFH doesn't have to feel luxurious to you, personally, to be an indicator of status.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:19 AM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't think it's a clear bright unbreakable line, but it is not really controversial to note that a coder who can WFH is on average much better compensated by things OTHER than the WFH privilege than a McDonald's cashier who absolutely cannot WFH.
Of course there is nuance to it; there are also very highly paid doctors who must go into medical facilities every day, and knowledge workers who aren't paid very much at all. But the lowest paid jobs are almost always very much onsite-mandatory jobs, and this is worth addressing. WFH doesn't have to feel luxurious to you, personally, to be an indicator of status.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:19 AM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is why I struggle to believe there even are other points of view on working from home. It gives you back some of your time, the one thing there literally can't ever be more of. No other concern or preference could possibly outweigh that.
I don't get it. Why do you think you know other people's concerns and preferences better than they do? That's weird.
When I was in grad school, I would regularly commute to campus to work even when I wasn't required to. It was a mix of reasons. I didn't have a home office, and I often found it easier to concentrate in a dedicated space; I liked the other grad students; the surrounding area had places I liked to go for lunch or after work. I did lose time to the commute, but my commute wasn't too long and I didn't feel it painfully. I waste more time per day on Twitter.
Now I don't have the option to work from home, but if I did, I'd probably be one of those people who'd be happiest with a mixed schedule, if the office environment was pleasant enough.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:20 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't get it. Why do you think you know other people's concerns and preferences better than they do? That's weird.
When I was in grad school, I would regularly commute to campus to work even when I wasn't required to. It was a mix of reasons. I didn't have a home office, and I often found it easier to concentrate in a dedicated space; I liked the other grad students; the surrounding area had places I liked to go for lunch or after work. I did lose time to the commute, but my commute wasn't too long and I didn't feel it painfully. I waste more time per day on Twitter.
Now I don't have the option to work from home, but if I did, I'd probably be one of those people who'd be happiest with a mixed schedule, if the office environment was pleasant enough.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:20 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese, pretty much agreed, but I dno't think that's anything new; office jobs were already higher status than the service industry before WFH. There are people for whom going into the office would be a privilege, and not just a choice that they're making. People doing data entry aren't just choosing to work from home; they don't have a choice.
it just seems reductive to make this about WFHers vs non-WFHers, when the person doing data entry, the CEO taking meetings in their fancy office, a software developer making 150k+, and an Uber Eats driver are all reduced to their WFH status.
posted by sagc at 10:25 AM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
it just seems reductive to make this about WFHers vs non-WFHers, when the person doing data entry, the CEO taking meetings in their fancy office, a software developer making 150k+, and an Uber Eats driver are all reduced to their WFH status.
posted by sagc at 10:25 AM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese, pretty much agreed, but I dno't think that's anything new; office jobs were already higher status than the service industry before WFH.
Seems possible that one or more recent and developing global catastrophes might have made the consequences of that particular divide rather more stark tho?
Anyway the point of this wasn't "is WFH terrible" it was "how has a shifting/widening of WFH altered household formation" and "what do WFH employees look like these days." It's...not even an argument for people to take sides on, really.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:42 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Seems possible that one or more recent and developing global catastrophes might have made the consequences of that particular divide rather more stark tho?
Anyway the point of this wasn't "is WFH terrible" it was "how has a shifting/widening of WFH altered household formation" and "what do WFH employees look like these days." It's...not even an argument for people to take sides on, really.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:42 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was responding to the dichotomy dis_integration posited in their comment, specifically, of a "new class distinction", and adding some confounding factors to the idea of "those who have the luxury to stay at home all day and those who can only afford shelter by spending most of their day outside of it doing the work that makes the world function for those who can stay inside".
posted by sagc at 10:47 AM on April 14, 2023
posted by sagc at 10:47 AM on April 14, 2023
People who have a choice between two conditions can’t be worse off than people assigned one of the two, right? So having the choice is a strict improvement over not having, whichever you prefer.
posted by clew at 11:00 AM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by clew at 11:00 AM on April 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Re: first link: any person who used Bill Lee's tragic murder as an example of the alleged out-of-control crime in SF and who hasn't updated that piece to reflect the fact that he was actually murdered by an acquaintance and professional colleague has forfeited the right to be taken seriously as anything other than a dog-whistler.
This is why I struggle to believe there even are other points of view on working from home. It gives you back some of your time, the one thing there literally can't ever be more of. No other concern or preference could possibly outweigh that.
Perhaps you would like to think about low-wage workers for whom WFH means they are paying a subsidy to their employers for office equipment, workspace, and utilities. I've seen this type of comment on Mefi with some frequency, and, man, it's one thing to be comfortable with WFH yourself, but if you literally cannot understand why some poor Tier I customer-service rep might prefer to have the company pay for the computer and the Internet and to keep the lights on, you really need to change how you interact with your fellow-people.
posted by praemunire at 11:01 AM on April 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
This is why I struggle to believe there even are other points of view on working from home. It gives you back some of your time, the one thing there literally can't ever be more of. No other concern or preference could possibly outweigh that.
Perhaps you would like to think about low-wage workers for whom WFH means they are paying a subsidy to their employers for office equipment, workspace, and utilities. I've seen this type of comment on Mefi with some frequency, and, man, it's one thing to be comfortable with WFH yourself, but if you literally cannot understand why some poor Tier I customer-service rep might prefer to have the company pay for the computer and the Internet and to keep the lights on, you really need to change how you interact with your fellow-people.
posted by praemunire at 11:01 AM on April 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
People working from home became younger, more diverse, better educated
Damn, I'm really missing out!
I wouldn't be so sure about that - I've been working from home for over 10 years, and I haven't become any of those things.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:31 AM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Damn, I'm really missing out!
I wouldn't be so sure about that - I've been working from home for over 10 years, and I haven't become any of those things.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:31 AM on April 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Re: first link: any person who used Bill Lee's tragic murder as an example of the alleged out-of-control crime in SF and who hasn't updated that piece to reflect the fact that he was actually murdered by an acquaintance and professional colleague has forfeited the right to be taken seriously as anything other than a dog-whistler.
Looks like the author of that piece deftly shifted their whistling so that now it's "look how horrible that nobody HELPED him!" which seems fair if tacked-on.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:58 AM on April 14, 2023
Looks like the author of that piece deftly shifted their whistling so that now it's "look how horrible that nobody HELPED him!" which seems fair if tacked-on.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:58 AM on April 14, 2023
now it's "look how horrible that nobody HELPED him!" which seems fair if tacked-on
Given that the people who refused to help him were most likely (given location/hour) other elites, it's not even fair. The "disintegration of the social fabric" he complains of is caused by the wealthy pulling away from the rest of us. "Look how callous you make us become just to endure being in your vicinity!" is a terrible line.
(A bleeding stranger at 2 am is legit scary, but if you are in your car, you can lock your doors before calling for help.)
posted by praemunire at 12:25 PM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Given that the people who refused to help him were most likely (given location/hour) other elites, it's not even fair. The "disintegration of the social fabric" he complains of is caused by the wealthy pulling away from the rest of us. "Look how callous you make us become just to endure being in your vicinity!" is a terrible line.
(A bleeding stranger at 2 am is legit scary, but if you are in your car, you can lock your doors before calling for help.)
posted by praemunire at 12:25 PM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One link from a Slate TERF author in the original post removed. We're not giving a platform to TERF authors here. Thank you everyone for flagging it.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:46 PM on April 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:46 PM on April 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
The Dangerous Rise of 'Front-Yard Politics'
I can’t say I strongly disagree with the spirit of this one, though I’m not sure that petty political hypocrisy and concern with appearances over action are on the rise.
But a few of the examples, man…
Texas produces more renewable energy than deep-blue California, and Oklahoma and Iowa produce more renewable energy than New York.
Does this table tell the story that he wants us to imagine it tells?
posted by atoxyl at 3:50 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can’t say I strongly disagree with the spirit of this one, though I’m not sure that petty political hypocrisy and concern with appearances over action are on the rise.
But a few of the examples, man…
Texas produces more renewable energy than deep-blue California, and Oklahoma and Iowa produce more renewable energy than New York.
Does this table tell the story that he wants us to imagine it tells?
posted by atoxyl at 3:50 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's an ominous echo of sci fi tropes about ground dwellers and people who can live in the rarefied heights and luxury of the sky cities.
...
You have no commute expenses, which is approximately equivalent to getting a raise equal to your commuting costs. You can dress how you want, which means your 'office clothes/uniform' budget is dramatically lower. It's definitely a luxury.
Plus you're saving on food costs, because you can eat simple meals at home more often, and you might be more deliberate about when and where you go out as opposed to going to happy hour at the $8/pint downtown pub because everyone else is. And anecdotally it feels like a lot of people now working from home are channeling those savings into housing costs, which is reasonable: You're spending more time at home and might want a dedicated office for multiple monitors or so that you have a nice Zoom background.
And if you're young and single, it might make less sense to have roommates if you're all going to be stuck home all day tripping over each other, or if you're worried you'll end up with a roommate who wants to practice drums or play Call of Duty at full volume while you're on the big client call.
So office workers now have more to spend on housing, and might be willing to spend a bigger portion of their income on housing, which drives up prices for everybody else. Including the people who still have to commute every day and haven't seen the same effective pay raise. Great.
posted by smelendez at 4:06 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
...
You have no commute expenses, which is approximately equivalent to getting a raise equal to your commuting costs. You can dress how you want, which means your 'office clothes/uniform' budget is dramatically lower. It's definitely a luxury.
Plus you're saving on food costs, because you can eat simple meals at home more often, and you might be more deliberate about when and where you go out as opposed to going to happy hour at the $8/pint downtown pub because everyone else is. And anecdotally it feels like a lot of people now working from home are channeling those savings into housing costs, which is reasonable: You're spending more time at home and might want a dedicated office for multiple monitors or so that you have a nice Zoom background.
And if you're young and single, it might make less sense to have roommates if you're all going to be stuck home all day tripping over each other, or if you're worried you'll end up with a roommate who wants to practice drums or play Call of Duty at full volume while you're on the big client call.
So office workers now have more to spend on housing, and might be willing to spend a bigger portion of their income on housing, which drives up prices for everybody else. Including the people who still have to commute every day and haven't seen the same effective pay raise. Great.
posted by smelendez at 4:06 PM on April 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
So office workers now have more to spend on housing, and might be willing to spend a bigger portion of their income on housing, which drives up prices for everybody else. Including the people who still have to commute every day and haven't seen the same effective pay raise. Great.
Well, one would also expect in the long run that remote-first companies will tend to pay less than in-office companies in the same area, because they can hire in cheaper areas. That’s their side of the bargain. My employer has been fairly explicit about this - they are committed to WFH, but will not adjust pay for cost of living going forward.
Of course, this still creates an upward pressure on housing costs in second or third tier CoL areas - that’s already very visible.
posted by atoxyl at 4:42 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well, one would also expect in the long run that remote-first companies will tend to pay less than in-office companies in the same area, because they can hire in cheaper areas. That’s their side of the bargain. My employer has been fairly explicit about this - they are committed to WFH, but will not adjust pay for cost of living going forward.
Of course, this still creates an upward pressure on housing costs in second or third tier CoL areas - that’s already very visible.
posted by atoxyl at 4:42 PM on April 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
thanks for the catch dis_integration and the mod assist from loup!
posted by kliuless at 10:04 PM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by kliuless at 10:04 PM on April 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
star gentle uterus: This is why I struggle to believe there even are other points of view on working from home. It gives you back some of your time, the one thing there literally can't ever be more of. No other concern or preference could possibly outweigh that.
I've got another point of view, believe me. My time on my own is the loneliness of the middle-aged man, where actual face-to-face time with friends can be rare. Work in the office provides contact with people of similar interests and validation -- being seen as a human being -- for doing what I do.
I respect your view and the gains you value from WFH. It makes worse things that aren't good for me.
Article-wise, I didn't understand what the (now-culled) dating article says she got right or wrong. I didn't like the style of it, to be honest. Props again to Kliuless for lots to read and consider.
posted by k3ninho at 12:43 PM on April 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've got another point of view, believe me. My time on my own is the loneliness of the middle-aged man, where actual face-to-face time with friends can be rare. Work in the office provides contact with people of similar interests and validation -- being seen as a human being -- for doing what I do.
I respect your view and the gains you value from WFH. It makes worse things that aren't good for me.
Article-wise, I didn't understand what the (now-culled) dating article says she got right or wrong. I didn't like the style of it, to be honest. Props again to Kliuless for lots to read and consider.
posted by k3ninho at 12:43 PM on April 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Since this is the WFH thread I’ll share that I got that rug pulled out from under me in April 2021.
My lease was up in June and we had had a baby in March, so we upgraded from one bedroom to two when we moved.
Then at the beginning of 2022 my company brought WFH back, but you had to have a dedicated room for it. You even had to submit photos to prove you had a workspace. I was pissed because had I known this was coming I could have found a three bedroom apartment.
I just mention all that because this discussion often seems to ignore that the free time you’re getting back is something you’re also buying with money. I definitely spend less on my commute than I would be spending on a larger apartment, and although I’d prefer to have done that and bought that free time back, some people wouldn’t or can’t afford it and I understand that.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 1:29 PM on April 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
My lease was up in June and we had had a baby in March, so we upgraded from one bedroom to two when we moved.
Then at the beginning of 2022 my company brought WFH back, but you had to have a dedicated room for it. You even had to submit photos to prove you had a workspace. I was pissed because had I known this was coming I could have found a three bedroom apartment.
I just mention all that because this discussion often seems to ignore that the free time you’re getting back is something you’re also buying with money. I definitely spend less on my commute than I would be spending on a larger apartment, and although I’d prefer to have done that and bought that free time back, some people wouldn’t or can’t afford it and I understand that.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 1:29 PM on April 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
The luxury for me also depended heavily on job quality. In March 2020, my former office job went remote until fall 2021. The job had been meh before, but taking away the sometimes fun parts of coworker interaction etc made me quickly hate it. I dreaded getting up and facing 8 hours a day on my couch doing stuff I hated. I was lucky and was able to change careers and I now WFH in a job I like, which is a million times better.
On the whole, my meh office job was still slightly preferable at home, for all the reasons given about commutes and sleeping more and etc. But it wasn't the slam-dunk I would have thought, it really laid bare how much I did not like my job, and I can see how it would have been absolutely awful to continue if you didn't have the luxury of switching to a job you liked.
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:04 PM on April 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the whole, my meh office job was still slightly preferable at home, for all the reasons given about commutes and sleeping more and etc. But it wasn't the slam-dunk I would have thought, it really laid bare how much I did not like my job, and I can see how it would have been absolutely awful to continue if you didn't have the luxury of switching to a job you liked.
posted by nakedmolerats at 5:04 PM on April 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Then at the beginning of 2022 my company brought WFH back, but you had to have a dedicated room for it. You even had to submit photos to prove you had a workspace.
[...]
I just mention all that because this discussion often seems to ignore that the free time you’re getting back is something you’re also buying with money.
I mean that sounds like a story about your company being unreasonable discriminatory shitbricks than about WFH? Like...my company has a lot of problems but they did not make telecommuting contingent on having bananapants levels of spare cash on hand.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:50 PM on April 16, 2023
[...]
I just mention all that because this discussion often seems to ignore that the free time you’re getting back is something you’re also buying with money.
I mean that sounds like a story about your company being unreasonable discriminatory shitbricks than about WFH? Like...my company has a lot of problems but they did not make telecommuting contingent on having bananapants levels of spare cash on hand.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:50 PM on April 16, 2023
Like...my company has a lot of problems but they did not make telecommuting contingent on having bananapants levels of spare cash on hand.
But there is almost no regulatory ceiling to WFH requirements, so, capitalism being what it is, one should expect WFH conditions to deteriorate over time, especially among the marginalized. It's important that as we liberate some workers to do work in environments they find more comfortable, we don't end up jeopardizing the work conditions of more vulnerable workers.
posted by praemunire at 1:44 PM on April 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
But there is almost no regulatory ceiling to WFH requirements, so, capitalism being what it is, one should expect WFH conditions to deteriorate over time, especially among the marginalized. It's important that as we liberate some workers to do work in environments they find more comfortable, we don't end up jeopardizing the work conditions of more vulnerable workers.
posted by praemunire at 1:44 PM on April 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Lotta jobs involve talking about other peoples finances, health, etc. Those employers should provide or require private workspaces.
posted by clew at 2:43 PM on April 16, 2023
posted by clew at 2:43 PM on April 16, 2023
So in other words, like I said, all conversations about WFH defy generalization because all jobs are different and all people are different. We can honestly remove the very idea of WFH from ALL of these conversations, because in the end the conversations need to be about forcing employers to be decent.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:08 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:08 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
So office workers now have more to spend on housing, and might be willing to spend a bigger portion of their income on housing, which drives up prices for everybody else. Including the people who still have to commute every day and haven't seen the same effective pay raise. Great.
I think the evidence of this is pretty weak. People impute costs for children, suggesting that size of home is correlated, but I find the evidence of that pretty weak as median home size has risen for the past 5 decades as the number of people per household has fallen. So sure, maybe some office workers are buying a larger house so they can WFH, but are all of them, or are they buying larger homes because they want a better investment, or because they want to avoid minorities, or because when they become empty nesters, they want space for their kids to come home, or because larger houses the only ones available? IMO the evidence is strongest people are buying larger houses because larger homes are the only ones being built. People move into older, smaller homes regularly, and only a tiny percentage overall enlarge them.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:37 AM on April 18, 2023
I think the evidence of this is pretty weak. People impute costs for children, suggesting that size of home is correlated, but I find the evidence of that pretty weak as median home size has risen for the past 5 decades as the number of people per household has fallen. So sure, maybe some office workers are buying a larger house so they can WFH, but are all of them, or are they buying larger homes because they want a better investment, or because they want to avoid minorities, or because when they become empty nesters, they want space for their kids to come home, or because larger houses the only ones available? IMO the evidence is strongest people are buying larger houses because larger homes are the only ones being built. People move into older, smaller homes regularly, and only a tiny percentage overall enlarge them.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:37 AM on April 18, 2023
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The economy won't slow down much as people age, in the sense that someone will be talking all their money while the poor ones starve and become homeless. The money will just be in different areas of the economy, and by that I mean buying a few people yachts.
Plenty of people do move to red states, anecdotally it usually seems to be people with a skin color or class level that allows them to turn a blind eye to the parts they used to say they didn't agree with. Highly regulated blue states could streamline things a bit, and also the federal government could step in and stop letting some states get away with fucking up the planet more than others.
posted by jellywerker at 5:36 AM on April 14, 2023 [2 favorites]