Nintendo can take 25-30% of his monthly income
April 19, 2023 4:52 AM Subscribe
Nintendo 'Hacker' Will Be Punished For The Rest Of His Life [Polygon] “A man sentenced to three years in prison for his role in a Nintendo Switch hack-selling scheme has been released early. But he says he will have to pay Nintendo a portion of whatever income he makes every month, for a very long time, as part of a $10 million settlement with company. In a podcast interview (first reported by TorrentFreak), Gary Bowser, 53, said he was let out of federal prison in Seattle early because of his age, medical condition, and nationality (he is Canadian). He will soon return to the Toronto area. But Bowser noted that his plea agreement calls for him to pay Nintendo $10 million in restitution. [...] In December 2021, he agreed to pay Nintendo $10 million to settle a civil lawsuit Nintendo had brought against him. Bowser’s criminal sentence also called for a $4.5 million fine, but since he is returning to Canada, Bowser said he is unlikely to have to pay that.” [Podcast interview with Gary Bowser about release.]
In other Nintendo related fuckery: Nintendo Escalates War On Popular Zelda YouTuber Behind Multiplayer Breath Of The Wild Mod [Kotaku]
“In the wake of a massive hype wave following the latest The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom trailer, Nintendo has seemingly ratched up the number of rogue copyright claims it puts out against content creators on Youtube, and at least one of them is hitting back. In his latest video, Eric “PointCrow” Morino pleaded with Nintendo to leave his channel alone after it recently issued dozens of additional claims against his videos. “Please remove these strikes and claims or at least start a dialogue with us so we can all move forward with the excitement I’m sure you would love to see about your future games,” Morino said in a video to Nintendo posted on YouTube on April 14 that he said was vetted by his lawyer. The request comes after the Switch manufacturer apparently doubled down on issuing copyright claims and strikes against Morino’s channel, increasing the total number to 28, including ones against older videos that had nothing to do with Breath of the Wild, like one about Wii Sports. Nintendo did not immediately respond to requests for comment.”posted by Fizz at 5:07 AM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Nintendo legal team really earning their salary. Blech.
posted by Fizz at 5:07 AM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 5:07 AM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Nintendo makes Disney look amiable when it comes to IP enforcement.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:08 AM on April 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 5:08 AM on April 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
Some bankruptcy courts have ordered sentences of criminal restitution discharged under Chapters 78 and 139 of the Bankruptcy Code, allowing debtors in bankruptcy to escape from sentences of criminal restitution scholarship.law.nd.edu (PDF)
But of course pursuing that is yet more legal fees.
posted by Lanark at 5:13 AM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
But of course pursuing that is yet more legal fees.
posted by Lanark at 5:13 AM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is awful awful awful, but I can't get past the fact that apparently his real last name is "Bowser".
Bowser!
posted by Kattullus at 5:22 AM on April 19, 2023 [59 favorites]
Bowser!
posted by Kattullus at 5:22 AM on April 19, 2023 [59 favorites]
Nominative determinism in action!
posted by rouftop at 5:25 AM on April 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by rouftop at 5:25 AM on April 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
The current President of Nintendo of America is also named Bowser. There are many and they are legion.
posted by Fizz at 5:25 AM on April 19, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 5:25 AM on April 19, 2023 [15 favorites]
Fizz: The current President of Nintendo of America is also named Bowser.
To be fair, making your defeated opponent your serf is exactly the kind of dick move video game Bowser would pull.
posted by Kattullus at 5:37 AM on April 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
To be fair, making your defeated opponent your serf is exactly the kind of dick move video game Bowser would pull.
posted by Kattullus at 5:37 AM on April 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
Nominative Determinism in action.
This is great news for my angry friend Gary Dickpuncher!!
posted by Fizz at 5:41 AM on April 19, 2023 [27 favorites]
This is great news for my angry friend Gary Dickpuncher!!
posted by Fizz at 5:41 AM on April 19, 2023 [27 favorites]
My favourite Discord has looked at the PointCrow thing, and the feeling there is that it's a bit more complicated than he presents it. They're not at all convinced that PointCrow is in the clear with regards to Nintendo's streamer provisions; streamers basically broadcast copyrighted content with the tolerance of the copyright holders, who have varying feelings about how it's in their interests. Nintendo is definitely on the less tolerant end; they explicitly state that you can only use "officially released Nintendo Game Content", which is emphatically not what PointCrow does.
More importantly, he runs an LLC, and Nintendo's guidelines (Q9) specifically state that they do not apply to companies.
Personally, I kind of wanted him to go down because he's contributing to this idea that multiplayer should be table stakes and any developer who doesn't do it is just lazy
posted by Merus at 6:33 AM on April 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
More importantly, he runs an LLC, and Nintendo's guidelines (Q9) specifically state that they do not apply to companies.
Personally, I kind of wanted him to go down because he's contributing to this idea that multiplayer should be table stakes and any developer who doesn't do it is just lazy
posted by Merus at 6:33 AM on April 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
This will most certainly bring an end to piracy.
posted by pashdown at 6:54 AM on April 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by pashdown at 6:54 AM on April 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
Kind of horrifying that someone ended up in prison for helping people use their devices in a way Nintendo didn't want. Starting to wonder if Tears of the Kingdom is going to be worth supporting Nintendo over that.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 7:20 AM on April 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 7:20 AM on April 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
Either the article is confused, or the man must have had a terrible lawyer, because he could've had the $10m civil settlement discharged in bankruptcy. I'm sure it was a nominal amount just made up for settlement purposes by Nintendo's counsel, since it's a number far beyond any regular individual's capacity to pay, so endorsing it over into the plea agreement was beyond dumb.
posted by praemunire at 7:20 AM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 7:20 AM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have some sympathy for Nintendo in their pointless was against streamers. People act as if video games are some natural resource like a national park that one can wander around in and take video. In reality, every blade of grass and creature was created by an artist, every sick move you pull off was planned, animated, and programmed by a team, every voice was played by an actor, every tune played by a musician (or an orchestra), and the plot was written by a writer.
All those people got paid, and in many cases continue to make a living from the game they helped produce. Streaming a recent game is one step removed from streaming a recent film without a license, talking over it and then claiming fair use.
posted by AndrewStephens at 7:26 AM on April 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
All those people got paid, and in many cases continue to make a living from the game they helped produce. Streaming a recent game is one step removed from streaming a recent film without a license, talking over it and then claiming fair use.
posted by AndrewStephens at 7:26 AM on April 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
All those people got paid, and in many cases continue to make a living from the game they helped produce. Streaming a recent game is one step removed from streaming a recent film without a license, talking over it and then claiming fair use.
This is the argument of someone who wouldn’t download a car, and I have no respect for it.
Streaming games is essentially free advertising. Watching someone play a game is not the same experience as playing the game.
I just.. was this a sarcastic comment, so dry that it turned and faced me and screamed and froze me in my tracks?
posted by curious nu at 7:34 AM on April 19, 2023 [43 favorites]
This is the argument of someone who wouldn’t download a car, and I have no respect for it.
Streaming games is essentially free advertising. Watching someone play a game is not the same experience as playing the game.
I just.. was this a sarcastic comment, so dry that it turned and faced me and screamed and froze me in my tracks?
posted by curious nu at 7:34 AM on April 19, 2023 [43 favorites]
Streaming a recent game is one step removed from streaming a recent film without a license, talking over it and then claiming fair use.
Playing a game vs. watching it seems like a pretty big step!
posted by atoxyl at 7:35 AM on April 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
Playing a game vs. watching it seems like a pretty big step!
posted by atoxyl at 7:35 AM on April 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
I watch gaming streams via youtube.com and twitch.tv MORE than any other streaming content that is available. There are so many amazing things happening in this streaming space (and of course some terrible ones too), but on the whole, watching my favorite streamers play a game or attempt a speed run or just shooting the shit while they play something, it just makes me super happy and it would be really depressing to have that taken away b/c a giant corporation wants more control of their product.
And its one thing if these corporations offered thier own version of this, but many don't and even the ones that do, it always feels really corporate and really staged. There's no authenticity or sense of wonder or fun, because then it just becomes really dull and all about generating money. And Nintendo is so bad at games preservation so that should also be taken into account. Many of these streamers, modders, "hackers", they often preserve and provide a way to see a game that would otherwise be lost to history b/c Nintendo can't get their shit together.
All the streamers I watch are excited about gaming, they want to engage with their fans and their community, they want to support the people who make these games. Just let people have fun with games.
There should be a balance. I'm not saying people should straight up be allowed to steal the hard work of a programmer in game development spaces. But it'd be nice if Nintendo (and these other corporate gaming giants) actually engaged with their community, but they're almost always on the worst side of this. And so much of this is just greed. It's really disheartening.
Sorry for the rant, just ugh. I really fucking love games.
posted by Fizz at 7:44 AM on April 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
And its one thing if these corporations offered thier own version of this, but many don't and even the ones that do, it always feels really corporate and really staged. There's no authenticity or sense of wonder or fun, because then it just becomes really dull and all about generating money. And Nintendo is so bad at games preservation so that should also be taken into account. Many of these streamers, modders, "hackers", they often preserve and provide a way to see a game that would otherwise be lost to history b/c Nintendo can't get their shit together.
All the streamers I watch are excited about gaming, they want to engage with their fans and their community, they want to support the people who make these games. Just let people have fun with games.
There should be a balance. I'm not saying people should straight up be allowed to steal the hard work of a programmer in game development spaces. But it'd be nice if Nintendo (and these other corporate gaming giants) actually engaged with their community, but they're almost always on the worst side of this. And so much of this is just greed. It's really disheartening.
Sorry for the rant, just ugh. I really fucking love games.
posted by Fizz at 7:44 AM on April 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
PointCrow didn't get targeted by Nintendo for streaming a game. He commissioned someone to design a multiplayer hack. That is, he paid someone to hack a Switch, develop ways to sideload an online multiplayer mode for Breath of the Wild, tested it with his friends and then went and posted multiple videos showing it off. He made a fat juicy target of himself.
We can certainly debate the ethics of copyright and software and streaming etc. I 100% agree that Nintendo is abusing their size and lack of... giving a shit, essentially... to crush this one guy in particular and are now targeting his entire livelihood as a streamer and "content creator" (Lord how I do loathe that phrase) even on videos that have nothing to do with the multiplayer hack or with Zelda games. But it's not because he's a streamer, it's because he publicly, enthusiastically flogged his own work on top of their game.
Bet a dollar that there will in fact be some multiplayer mode for Tears of the Kingdom, which probably contributed to how trigger-happy Nintendo got over the hack.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:47 AM on April 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
We can certainly debate the ethics of copyright and software and streaming etc. I 100% agree that Nintendo is abusing their size and lack of... giving a shit, essentially... to crush this one guy in particular and are now targeting his entire livelihood as a streamer and "content creator" (Lord how I do loathe that phrase) even on videos that have nothing to do with the multiplayer hack or with Zelda games. But it's not because he's a streamer, it's because he publicly, enthusiastically flogged his own work on top of their game.
Bet a dollar that there will in fact be some multiplayer mode for Tears of the Kingdom, which probably contributed to how trigger-happy Nintendo got over the hack.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:47 AM on April 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
Interview without the echo.
Let them just sue the LLC, then; not so different than the WoW Glider and such cases except it's monetized via views rather than selling the mod. It's normalizing the backchannel major-to-major abuse of the already one-sided and inscrutable YT copyright system that's noxious.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:53 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Let them just sue the LLC, then; not so different than the WoW Glider and such cases except it's monetized via views rather than selling the mod. It's normalizing the backchannel major-to-major abuse of the already one-sided and inscrutable YT copyright system that's noxious.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:53 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have no horse in the race re: people streaming video game playthroughs, but I will say that I have tried to watch a few and the people playing are so @#&^%@#@ annoying that I have to stop. Like, I'd much rather watch someone play and not talk.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:57 AM on April 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:57 AM on April 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
Streaming a recent game is one step removed from streaming a recent film without a license, talking over it and then claiming fair use.
Uh, I guess a movie is one step removed from basically being a video game, in that you can control it with the fast forward and rewind buttons.
posted by AlSweigart at 7:57 AM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Uh, I guess a movie is one step removed from basically being a video game, in that you can control it with the fast forward and rewind buttons.
posted by AlSweigart at 7:57 AM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Streaming games is essentially free advertising.
Well, yes and no. Viewing a game non-interactively is advertising for a given person if that person's desire for the interactive component of the game is strong enough. So for me, BotW has a lot of cool stuff you can do*; as attractive as it is to watch, it's even better to play. But for games like those in the Final Fantasy series (whose interactive component doesn't offer much added value for me) watching a stream would obviate the need to get the game.
every sick move you pull off was planned
*BotW example: when you use Stasis on an object, you can hit the object and it will store the force applied to that object. When Stasis expires, all those stored forces get applied at once. My son was using this effect on large objects like boulders and climbing on top of them before the expiration of Stasis sent them flying so he would be carried along, too. He wanted to use chopped-down trees because they're easier to climb and hold onto. But he wanted to climb onto the tree while it was still at least partially vertical, and it was hard to apply Stasis before the the trunk fell all the way to the ground. So I suggested chopping the tree down, just letting it fall all the way down, and then sticking a balloon on one end of the trunk to lift it up before applying Stasis. It worked! I don't know if this combination of activities was specifically planned by the developers, but I'd almost feel cheated if it were.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:02 AM on April 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well, yes and no. Viewing a game non-interactively is advertising for a given person if that person's desire for the interactive component of the game is strong enough. So for me, BotW has a lot of cool stuff you can do*; as attractive as it is to watch, it's even better to play. But for games like those in the Final Fantasy series (whose interactive component doesn't offer much added value for me) watching a stream would obviate the need to get the game.
every sick move you pull off was planned
*BotW example: when you use Stasis on an object, you can hit the object and it will store the force applied to that object. When Stasis expires, all those stored forces get applied at once. My son was using this effect on large objects like boulders and climbing on top of them before the expiration of Stasis sent them flying so he would be carried along, too. He wanted to use chopped-down trees because they're easier to climb and hold onto. But he wanted to climb onto the tree while it was still at least partially vertical, and it was hard to apply Stasis before the the trunk fell all the way to the ground. So I suggested chopping the tree down, just letting it fall all the way down, and then sticking a balloon on one end of the trunk to lift it up before applying Stasis. It worked! I don't know if this combination of activities was specifically planned by the developers, but I'd almost feel cheated if it were.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:02 AM on April 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I have tried to watch a few and the people playing are so @#&^%@#@ annoying that I have to stop. Like, I'd much rather watch someone play and not talk.
FWIW -- though you have to make more of an effort to find them as the algos won't pop them up, there are definitely much more understated types out there who don't do the HEY CHAT LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOO streamer thing.
And there are also 'no talking' streams, but they tend to have even lower numbers. Scroll way down.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:03 AM on April 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
FWIW -- though you have to make more of an effort to find them as the algos won't pop them up, there are definitely much more understated types out there who don't do the HEY CHAT LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOO streamer thing.
And there are also 'no talking' streams, but they tend to have even lower numbers. Scroll way down.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:03 AM on April 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
> In that plea, Bowser admitted to selling tools that hacked Nintendo Switch consoles and which his customers used to get Switch games for free.
I mean, Nintendo has to hit this kind of shit hard. He doesn't sound like some kid goofing around — he was a mature adult trying to make a business out of undermining Nintendo's ability to monetize the content they spend a *huge* amount of time and resources creating. It sucks for him, now, but, I mean. Jesus Christ. What did he expect? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
posted by chasing at 8:19 AM on April 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
I mean, Nintendo has to hit this kind of shit hard. He doesn't sound like some kid goofing around — he was a mature adult trying to make a business out of undermining Nintendo's ability to monetize the content they spend a *huge* amount of time and resources creating. It sucks for him, now, but, I mean. Jesus Christ. What did he expect? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
posted by chasing at 8:19 AM on April 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
I don't know if this combination of activities was specifically planned by the developers, but I'd almost feel cheated if it were.
The possibilities are certainly intended even if every possible interaction isn't predicted. The game is designed to allow emergent gameplay -- and it has platforming roots.
Riding projectiles (or using explosions and other environmental effects to affect movement) is often an intentional thing in platformers (including various 3D Mario titles) and a predictable source of emergent gameplay in other genres if you choose not to prevent it. (Or, a source of exploits if you expect to prevent it and fail.)
Either the article is confused, or the man must have had a terrible lawyer, because he could've had the $10m civil settlement discharged in bankruptcy.
This Gizmodo article says "[a]ccording to his original plea agreement, Bowser has to pay $4.5 million in restitution to Nintendo of America. A separate civil suit Nintendo brought against Bowser also mandates Bowser pay Nintendo of America $10 million. Bowser told Moses that so far, he’s paid about $175 to Nintendo from his meager salary working in the prison library. He added that the agreement would take close to a quarter of his gross monthly income."
So perhaps the nominal $10M will go away, and Nintendo will have to content itself with haunting him for the only slightly less silly $4.5M -- in Canada, or elsewhere. Perhaps he's relying on that not being so easy for them. To the point that evading it makes better sense than trying to discharge it.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:24 AM on April 19, 2023
The possibilities are certainly intended even if every possible interaction isn't predicted. The game is designed to allow emergent gameplay -- and it has platforming roots.
Riding projectiles (or using explosions and other environmental effects to affect movement) is often an intentional thing in platformers (including various 3D Mario titles) and a predictable source of emergent gameplay in other genres if you choose not to prevent it. (Or, a source of exploits if you expect to prevent it and fail.)
Either the article is confused, or the man must have had a terrible lawyer, because he could've had the $10m civil settlement discharged in bankruptcy.
This Gizmodo article says "[a]ccording to his original plea agreement, Bowser has to pay $4.5 million in restitution to Nintendo of America. A separate civil suit Nintendo brought against Bowser also mandates Bowser pay Nintendo of America $10 million. Bowser told Moses that so far, he’s paid about $175 to Nintendo from his meager salary working in the prison library. He added that the agreement would take close to a quarter of his gross monthly income."
So perhaps the nominal $10M will go away, and Nintendo will have to content itself with haunting him for the only slightly less silly $4.5M -- in Canada, or elsewhere. Perhaps he's relying on that not being so easy for them. To the point that evading it makes better sense than trying to discharge it.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:24 AM on April 19, 2023
But for games like those in the Final Fantasy series (whose interactive component doesn't offer much added value for me) watching a stream would obviate the need to get the game.
I may be missing a major point here or something. I find the idea of watching a game being streamed utterly boring. Maybe watching a multi-player "esports" type thing would be fun, if you like spectating more than playing, but I just cannot summon any interest in watching other people play a game.
I've watched one or two walkthroughs to help me get past a point in games I was stuck on - and that strikes me as being firmly in the category of "good advertising" for a game. I'm not going to need a walkthrough on a game I haven't bought* and if I can't find walkthroughs I may not buy a game.
Then again - I'm a major cut-scene hater and want as little narrative as possible getting in the way of playing time. If I want a story, I'll watch a show or movie. Narrative just cuts down on the action. So I may not be even remotely like the majority audience that Nintendo has or thinks it has.
* I'm sure some people have games they haven't purchased legitimately but I don't truck with that.
posted by jzb at 8:24 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I may be missing a major point here or something. I find the idea of watching a game being streamed utterly boring. Maybe watching a multi-player "esports" type thing would be fun, if you like spectating more than playing, but I just cannot summon any interest in watching other people play a game.
I've watched one or two walkthroughs to help me get past a point in games I was stuck on - and that strikes me as being firmly in the category of "good advertising" for a game. I'm not going to need a walkthrough on a game I haven't bought* and if I can't find walkthroughs I may not buy a game.
Then again - I'm a major cut-scene hater and want as little narrative as possible getting in the way of playing time. If I want a story, I'll watch a show or movie. Narrative just cuts down on the action. So I may not be even remotely like the majority audience that Nintendo has or thinks it has.
* I'm sure some people have games they haven't purchased legitimately but I don't truck with that.
posted by jzb at 8:24 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
> Kind of horrifying that someone ended up in prison for helping people use their devices in a way Nintendo didn't want.
Yeah, they don't want you pirating their games. Seems reasonable to me, even though I do understand that on some level it feels nice to take things without paying for them.
posted by chasing at 8:25 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, they don't want you pirating their games. Seems reasonable to me, even though I do understand that on some level it feels nice to take things without paying for them.
posted by chasing at 8:25 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's nothing. When I was a kid Nintendo took 99% of my income, with 1% for candy or Crystal Pepsi.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:25 AM on April 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:25 AM on April 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
Here's my hot take: If companies want to argue that a video game is so non interactive that streaming it captures enough of the essence of the thing to make a copyright claim on it, they should be legally forbidden from advertising it as a game, and instead have to call it a "digital experience."
I actually have some reasoning behind that though. I mean, on it's face it seems to me that trying to file a copyright claim on a stream of a video game is as ridiculous as a bicycle company trying to claim copyright on a video of someone doing trick on a awesome looking bike that they made. Both of them involve a lot of mental and creative labor to make something that people can have fun with and make it look nice, but no matter how cool it looks, just looking at it isn't the point.
But video games are a continuum, and there are some genres of video game, like visual novels, where jut watching someone play through it, even if there are multiple paths, does really give you enough of the experience that just watching a playthrough of it should be copyrightable.
But companies should be made to be clear upfront about what they think they are doing. And yes I know this will mostly just result in companies calling everything "interactive digital experiences" rather than "games" instead of ceding any possible power they might have. But let some of the burden of the law fall on the big guys for once.
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:28 AM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I actually have some reasoning behind that though. I mean, on it's face it seems to me that trying to file a copyright claim on a stream of a video game is as ridiculous as a bicycle company trying to claim copyright on a video of someone doing trick on a awesome looking bike that they made. Both of them involve a lot of mental and creative labor to make something that people can have fun with and make it look nice, but no matter how cool it looks, just looking at it isn't the point.
But video games are a continuum, and there are some genres of video game, like visual novels, where jut watching someone play through it, even if there are multiple paths, does really give you enough of the experience that just watching a playthrough of it should be copyrightable.
But companies should be made to be clear upfront about what they think they are doing. And yes I know this will mostly just result in companies calling everything "interactive digital experiences" rather than "games" instead of ceding any possible power they might have. But let some of the burden of the law fall on the big guys for once.
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:28 AM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
> This is the argument of someone who wouldn’t download a car, and I have no respect for it. Watching someone play a game is not the same experience as playing the game. I just.. was this a sarcastic comment, so dry that it turned and faced me and screamed and froze me in my tracks?My comment was not sarcastic. Don't get me wrong, I occasionally watch streamers (or youtube clips of streamers) and have pirated stuff in the past. And some games lend themselves to streaming, multiplayer competitive games are basically sports.
But Nintendo is well within their rights to ask that people not stream certain games. Even then, they only seem to really crack down on the most egregious examples.
>Streaming games is essentially free advertising.I guess it is this argument that particularly annoys me - the streamers are not doing Nintendo some favor. They are trying to make money of a property that they do not own, potentially harming the brand. There are plenty of other games out there that they could be streaming instead.
posted by AndrewStephens at 8:33 AM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
and which his customers used to get Switch games for free.
Thanks for pointing that out; I'd missed that. While I think the violence of prison is still not appropriate for that, it helps me understand the severity of the situation.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:39 AM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Thanks for pointing that out; I'd missed that. While I think the violence of prison is still not appropriate for that, it helps me understand the severity of the situation.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:39 AM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Kind of horrifying that someone ended up in prison for helping people use their devices in a way Nintendo didn't want.
The weird thing is that there has always been a community putting Nintendo hacks in the public domain, but the Justice Department only went after the people who set up multiple shell companies in foreign countries to sell hacks specifically made to evade paying for products. I can't see what the difference would be.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:40 AM on April 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
The weird thing is that there has always been a community putting Nintendo hacks in the public domain, but the Justice Department only went after the people who set up multiple shell companies in foreign countries to sell hacks specifically made to evade paying for products. I can't see what the difference would be.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:40 AM on April 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
> Thanks for pointing that out; I'd missed that. While I think the violence of prison is still not appropriate for that, it helps me understand the severity of the situation.
I don't know enough about this guy to judge the penalties (although my guts tells me that he was essentially committing intentional organized crime with the goal of getting rich — again, not some kid fucking around).
THAT SAID, one of my personal philosophies is that you don't fuck around with lion cubs and then complain that getting mauled by a lion was way too severe a punishment for the crime.
posted by chasing at 8:42 AM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know enough about this guy to judge the penalties (although my guts tells me that he was essentially committing intentional organized crime with the goal of getting rich — again, not some kid fucking around).
THAT SAID, one of my personal philosophies is that you don't fuck around with lion cubs and then complain that getting mauled by a lion was way too severe a punishment for the crime.
posted by chasing at 8:42 AM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
> > Streaming games is essentially free advertising.
> I guess it is this argument that particularly annoys me - the streamers are not doing Nintendo some favor. They are trying to make money of a property that they do not own, potentially harming the brand. There are plenty of other games out there that they could be streaming instead.
Also, Nintendo aren't idiots. They're aware of streaming and understand probably very clearly the benefits and drawbacks. And they've decided where they stand.
posted by chasing at 8:47 AM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
> I guess it is this argument that particularly annoys me - the streamers are not doing Nintendo some favor. They are trying to make money of a property that they do not own, potentially harming the brand. There are plenty of other games out there that they could be streaming instead.
Also, Nintendo aren't idiots. They're aware of streaming and understand probably very clearly the benefits and drawbacks. And they've decided where they stand.
posted by chasing at 8:47 AM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I guess it is this argument that particularly annoys me - the streamers are not doing Nintendo some favor. They are trying to make money of a property that they do not own, potentially harming the brand. There are plenty of other games out there that they could be streaming instead.
Both things can be true! Streamers are doing Nintendo a favor AND they are participating in a desperate attempt to survive in countries with governments that are actively trying to make being alive as difficult as possible.
I don't watch streamers as a rule unless there is an amusing gimmick (Trial by Fieri is pretty great, for example), so I don't have a stake in this. Nintendo is a big weird control freak and has been forever.
posted by curious nu at 8:54 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Both things can be true! Streamers are doing Nintendo a favor AND they are participating in a desperate attempt to survive in countries with governments that are actively trying to make being alive as difficult as possible.
I don't watch streamers as a rule unless there is an amusing gimmick (Trial by Fieri is pretty great, for example), so I don't have a stake in this. Nintendo is a big weird control freak and has been forever.
posted by curious nu at 8:54 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure why we're having the "is streaming a game ethical" debate when the actions taken by PointCrow go well beyond just showing a game. It does seem like the automated DMCA bots went ham on his account, but that is another issue entirely -- one that really needs to be addressed -- which affects a lot of YouTube accounts on a daily basis.
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:59 AM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:59 AM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Can someone explain this better than the article? If the guy was selling console hacks via a shell corporation, he’s clearly the bad guy right? If the game is worth $60 to you, buy it. If not don’t. You can’t simultaneously argue that the game isn’t worth spending $60 for, but that you’ve just gotta get it for free because it’s SO GREAT and you’d be missing out. Or is it really just about streaming ?
posted by caviar2d2 at 9:08 AM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 9:08 AM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
The guy in the article who is getting out of prison is not the multiplayer mod streaming guy. He's the guy behind Team Xecuter.
The 'deep lore' here is Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc, and then later Micro Star v. FormGen Inc limiting it. And then statutory rules under the DMCA. Nintendo doesn't want another legit Game Genie, ever.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:13 AM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
The 'deep lore' here is Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc, and then later Micro Star v. FormGen Inc limiting it. And then statutory rules under the DMCA. Nintendo doesn't want another legit Game Genie, ever.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:13 AM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Nominative Determinism in action.
This is great news for my angry friend Gary Dickpuncher!!
So, he's a musician?
posted by HeroZero at 9:23 AM on April 19, 2023
This is great news for my angry friend Gary Dickpuncher!!
So, he's a musician?
posted by HeroZero at 9:23 AM on April 19, 2023
You can’t simultaneously argue that the game isn’t worth spending $60 for, but that you’ve just gotta get it for free because it’s SO GREAT and you’d be missing out.
First day on the Internet?
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:37 AM on April 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
First day on the Internet?
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:37 AM on April 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don’t know anything about the streamer being talked about here (beyond what I just read here) but I think this thread kind of got off the rails when that person came up, because whatever they are doing and what Bowser did are in two totally different universes.
Bowser was actively involved in an organization that sold piracy devices, intentionally and for a profit, that were openly advertised as such. This is not Nintendo being petty, Nintendo trying to prevent Game Genie 2020, Nintendo overzealously guarding its IP. This is Nintendo coming down on what was essentially a company operating out in the open that was selling mod chips specifically advertised as being able to play pirated games. Bowser was literally a PR guy!
Somebody upthread called it organized crime and I think, given the facts here, I’d have to agree. This was not fans jailbreaking a device to run their own apps. It was a for-profit end run around copyright.
posted by tubedogg at 10:32 AM on April 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
Bowser was actively involved in an organization that sold piracy devices, intentionally and for a profit, that were openly advertised as such. This is not Nintendo being petty, Nintendo trying to prevent Game Genie 2020, Nintendo overzealously guarding its IP. This is Nintendo coming down on what was essentially a company operating out in the open that was selling mod chips specifically advertised as being able to play pirated games. Bowser was literally a PR guy!
Somebody upthread called it organized crime and I think, given the facts here, I’d have to agree. This was not fans jailbreaking a device to run their own apps. It was a for-profit end run around copyright.
posted by tubedogg at 10:32 AM on April 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
I apologize. That' entirely my fault, I shouldn't have put TWO different Nintendo stories in such a way, its caused some confusion and conflation.
*** The Bowser law-suit is ONE story and the Pointcrow streaming take-down is ANOTHER story. ***
I only referenced them both in this same thread as a way of demonstrating how litigious Nintendo is as a company.
posted by Fizz at 10:39 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
*** The Bowser law-suit is ONE story and the Pointcrow streaming take-down is ANOTHER story. ***
I only referenced them both in this same thread as a way of demonstrating how litigious Nintendo is as a company.
posted by Fizz at 10:39 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
More background on Team Xecuter in this 2020 Ars Technica article.
I'm surprised to see the copyright-maximalist position being asserted so strongly here on Metafilter. It's not obvious to me that selling tools to hack your own device to play pirated games is the greater evil in this situation. My VCR didn't prevent me from playing "illegal" tapes; I can buy a region-free DVD player to play discs that aren't authorized for sale in my region.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 10:45 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm surprised to see the copyright-maximalist position being asserted so strongly here on Metafilter. It's not obvious to me that selling tools to hack your own device to play pirated games is the greater evil in this situation. My VCR didn't prevent me from playing "illegal" tapes; I can buy a region-free DVD player to play discs that aren't authorized for sale in my region.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 10:45 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
It is kinda about preventing Game Genie 2020 -- the DMCA's anti-circumvention measures changed the law on derivative works and reverse engineering. That said, marketing it for the purpose of playing pirated ROMs is different than for extending or experimenting with gameplay, even if functionally doing either requires the same jailbreaks and other hacks.
Sort of relatedly, Bungie just started a new crackdown on people using hardware adapters like Xim to enable non-standard input devices on the console version of Destiny 2. In this context, that just means a ban. But that's significant for the (ugh) content creators, or people with huge hours invested in an account doing something that was long tolerated.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:04 AM on April 19, 2023
Sort of relatedly, Bungie just started a new crackdown on people using hardware adapters like Xim to enable non-standard input devices on the console version of Destiny 2. In this context, that just means a ban. But that's significant for the (ugh) content creators, or people with huge hours invested in an account doing something that was long tolerated.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:04 AM on April 19, 2023
I'm surprised to see the copyright-maximalist position being asserted so strongly here on Metafilter.
There are too many people here who have created content.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:08 AM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
There are too many people here who have created content.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:08 AM on April 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Streaming games is essentially free advertising. Watching someone play a game is not the same experience as playing the game.
There are many games I haven't bought because I had the option of watching a stream instead. Alien Isolation, Observation, Bridge Builder - all kinds of stuff.
But whether it's free advertising or not is beside the point - you don't have some inalienable right to stream other people's work. I can't do a stream of cover songs, which seems like far more original work, but people treat game streaming like it's somehow a special case where of course the authors of the work have no rights to interfere. That's just not the case, legally.
posted by Dysk at 11:09 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
There are many games I haven't bought because I had the option of watching a stream instead. Alien Isolation, Observation, Bridge Builder - all kinds of stuff.
But whether it's free advertising or not is beside the point - you don't have some inalienable right to stream other people's work. I can't do a stream of cover songs, which seems like far more original work, but people treat game streaming like it's somehow a special case where of course the authors of the work have no rights to interfere. That's just not the case, legally.
posted by Dysk at 11:09 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Is this an endorsement of copyright law as it stands? No. But I am definitely not in favour of game streaming being some kind of special case where the law doesn't apply. If we're going to fix it, we should fix it for everything, not make an exception for game streaming while leaving the problematic bullshit in place for everything else.)
posted by Dysk at 11:14 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 11:14 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
There are too many people here who have created content.
Some of us have created content yet realize that even from the economic point of view, copyright-maximalism lines the pockets of the corporations, not of the creators.
posted by praemunire at 11:45 AM on April 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
Some of us have created content yet realize that even from the economic point of view, copyright-maximalism lines the pockets of the corporations, not of the creators.
posted by praemunire at 11:45 AM on April 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
I can't do a stream of cover songs
? Yes, you can. Check out the music category on Twitch. There is so much fantastic stuff.
Separately, the idea that normal streaming doesn't help a game at all is...an extreme view not shared by most gaming companies, to my knowledge. Right now eight Twitch streamers I follow are online, and two of them are doing sponsored streams, where the game companies (including one of the biggest, Microsoft) are paying these streamers to play their games on stream. Because streaming a game is an advertisement for the game. If it weren't, they wouldn't do that.
Now, Nintendo is kind of special. Most of their games aren't the kind that most benefit from streaming, and their really big ones would be really big no matter what. This isn't the only way they keep an especially tight grip on their IP. Having Nintendo sponsor a stream would feel kind of like Apple having a big sale--it's just not their thing. And still--there's no question they sold a lot of Switches they otherwise wouldn't have, thanks to Animal Crossing: New Horizon's explosion on Twitch during the first year+ of the pandemic.
But obviously streamers only help a game when they are playing it more or less the way it was developed to play. Some creators like Let's Game it Out, are so entertaining when trying to break games that game companies still clamor to be featured. But there are countless ways to play that could, in theory, actively hurt the brand. It makes sense that in those cases the companies would not work with those creators and in the cases featured in this post, go so far as to stop them.
posted by lampoil at 11:59 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
? Yes, you can. Check out the music category on Twitch. There is so much fantastic stuff.
Separately, the idea that normal streaming doesn't help a game at all is...an extreme view not shared by most gaming companies, to my knowledge. Right now eight Twitch streamers I follow are online, and two of them are doing sponsored streams, where the game companies (including one of the biggest, Microsoft) are paying these streamers to play their games on stream. Because streaming a game is an advertisement for the game. If it weren't, they wouldn't do that.
Now, Nintendo is kind of special. Most of their games aren't the kind that most benefit from streaming, and their really big ones would be really big no matter what. This isn't the only way they keep an especially tight grip on their IP. Having Nintendo sponsor a stream would feel kind of like Apple having a big sale--it's just not their thing. And still--there's no question they sold a lot of Switches they otherwise wouldn't have, thanks to Animal Crossing: New Horizon's explosion on Twitch during the first year+ of the pandemic.
But obviously streamers only help a game when they are playing it more or less the way it was developed to play. Some creators like Let's Game it Out, are so entertaining when trying to break games that game companies still clamor to be featured. But there are countless ways to play that could, in theory, actively hurt the brand. It makes sense that in those cases the companies would not work with those creators and in the cases featured in this post, go so far as to stop them.
posted by lampoil at 11:59 AM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
? Yes, you can. Check out the music category on Twitch. There is so much fantastic stuff.
I can also take stuff that's lying about, and even get away with it if I'm careful, but I cannot do the same legally. Live performance of covers requires the venue to be licensed and paying royalties to the rights-holders in my jurisdiction, and every other one in familiar with. People doing this on Twitch from anywhere else are simply flying under the radar.
posted by Dysk at 1:15 PM on April 19, 2023
I can also take stuff that's lying about, and even get away with it if I'm careful, but I cannot do the same legally. Live performance of covers requires the venue to be licensed and paying royalties to the rights-holders in my jurisdiction, and every other one in familiar with. People doing this on Twitch from anywhere else are simply flying under the radar.
posted by Dysk at 1:15 PM on April 19, 2023
I would simply stream in front of the Eiffel Tower at night.
posted by RobotHero at 1:59 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by RobotHero at 1:59 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
This discussion of copyright is pointless. Whether the current law is good or bad, whether what these people did was moral or immoral, the current situation is what it is. Nintendo has been known for decades to nuke perceived violators from orbit for even the slightest infraction. Until the law changes, messing with Nintendo IP is playing with fire. These people knew the risk, did it anyway, and predictably got burned.
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:03 PM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:03 PM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, they don't want you pirating their games. Seems reasonable to me, even though I do understand that on some level it feels nice to take things without paying for them.
I find that for older games, more and more, the energy is in ways to experience them that are not as they were originally intended. I mean, Super Mario Bros, and The Legend of Zelda, you play them once, you're through. Even if every new person decided to play them, it will never again be like they were when they were new.
Increasingly, the major thrust of older games is in streaming and modifications. More people watch play of classic games than play them themselves any more, and for people who do play them, mods like hacks and randomizers, which are very not-Nintendo-approved, are where the interest lies. There's this whole scene that Nintendo, in the most charitable cases, chooses to ignore, and it's bigger than you'd think it'd be.
Of course these are all things that apply to older, "retro" games. But the thing to remember is, all new games, plus time, are retro games.
Nintendo could get ahead of all of this. They could sell licenses to play games in a modified way. They could even offer ways to play these roms on their platforms. It'd be awesome to play Zelda Randomizer on a Switch. Maybe after a certain number of years after a title's original release, maybe ten or twenty? I'm not sure that they ever will, but it'd be the forward thinking way to do it.
posted by JHarris at 3:19 PM on April 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I find that for older games, more and more, the energy is in ways to experience them that are not as they were originally intended. I mean, Super Mario Bros, and The Legend of Zelda, you play them once, you're through. Even if every new person decided to play them, it will never again be like they were when they were new.
Increasingly, the major thrust of older games is in streaming and modifications. More people watch play of classic games than play them themselves any more, and for people who do play them, mods like hacks and randomizers, which are very not-Nintendo-approved, are where the interest lies. There's this whole scene that Nintendo, in the most charitable cases, chooses to ignore, and it's bigger than you'd think it'd be.
Of course these are all things that apply to older, "retro" games. But the thing to remember is, all new games, plus time, are retro games.
Nintendo could get ahead of all of this. They could sell licenses to play games in a modified way. They could even offer ways to play these roms on their platforms. It'd be awesome to play Zelda Randomizer on a Switch. Maybe after a certain number of years after a title's original release, maybe ten or twenty? I'm not sure that they ever will, but it'd be the forward thinking way to do it.
posted by JHarris at 3:19 PM on April 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
In reality, every blade of grass and creature was created by an artist, every sick move you pull off was planned, animated, and programmed by a team, every voice was played by an actor, every tune played by a musician (or an orchestra), and the plot was written by a writer.
And?
How does a streamer effect that in any way that is not covered by the pre-streamer reviews and word of mouth about a product?
Is the position being taken here is Oracle is right with their 'you can not offer reviews or create performance data and publish it' like existed in their software EULA?
Is the view here the same as a book publisher/author who claims libraries are EVIL with an argument about how the overall production of the book is lessened due to the existence of a library?
What about the machines no longer supported - say a WII console. Is that OK to modify to deal with the dead DVD drive and now load the games from a USB stick? is that somehow effecting the people/jobs listed?
I already remember Microsoft being a corporate ass over the years. I have to remind myself Sony isn't any better than Microsoft. Reading what Nintendo does reminds me why they don't deserve more of my money.
posted by rough ashlar at 3:54 PM on April 19, 2023
And?
How does a streamer effect that in any way that is not covered by the pre-streamer reviews and word of mouth about a product?
Is the position being taken here is Oracle is right with their 'you can not offer reviews or create performance data and publish it' like existed in their software EULA?
Is the view here the same as a book publisher/author who claims libraries are EVIL with an argument about how the overall production of the book is lessened due to the existence of a library?
What about the machines no longer supported - say a WII console. Is that OK to modify to deal with the dead DVD drive and now load the games from a USB stick? is that somehow effecting the people/jobs listed?
I already remember Microsoft being a corporate ass over the years. I have to remind myself Sony isn't any better than Microsoft. Reading what Nintendo does reminds me why they don't deserve more of my money.
posted by rough ashlar at 3:54 PM on April 19, 2023
He wasn't just helping people use their device out the kindness of his heart. He made a product that he sold for money. That product was designed to let people avoid paying for the games they wanted to play. It was marketed as a piracy device, not just some cool thing that let you run some indie games that can't get through Nintendo licensing.
posted by interogative mood at 4:01 PM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 4:01 PM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
But Nintendo is well within their rights to ask that people not stream certain games.
What rights are these? In the EULA? Copyright? Got caselaw to show this right?
Last time I looked at caselaw streaming of an interactive game isn't clear....yet. But you seem to have better data so please share.
They are trying to make money of a property that they do not own, potentially harming the brand.
And yet where is the outcry from Nike or other clothing brands when their branded clothes show up in stupid tiktok challenges or prank videos? While your position is established for branding in movies social media isn't a movie unless one takes the Q-Anon position about things being a movie VS something on social media.
posted by rough ashlar at 4:10 PM on April 19, 2023
What rights are these? In the EULA? Copyright? Got caselaw to show this right?
Last time I looked at caselaw streaming of an interactive game isn't clear....yet. But you seem to have better data so please share.
They are trying to make money of a property that they do not own, potentially harming the brand.
And yet where is the outcry from Nike or other clothing brands when their branded clothes show up in stupid tiktok challenges or prank videos? While your position is established for branding in movies social media isn't a movie unless one takes the Q-Anon position about things being a movie VS something on social media.
posted by rough ashlar at 4:10 PM on April 19, 2023
You can make your own games, y’know. Do whatever you want with ‘em.
posted by chasing at 4:29 PM on April 19, 2023
posted by chasing at 4:29 PM on April 19, 2023
And yet where is the outcry from Nike or other clothing brands when their branded clothes show up in stupid tiktok challenges or prank videos?
WIthout having formed an opinion on streaming itself, there's a fundamental different between showing brand signs (like trademarked logos) and creative works (which are copyrighted). Both legally and (IMHO at lest) how much protection they should have.
Big difference between using a picture of the Paramount logo and posting a copy of one of their feature films.
posted by mark k at 5:18 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
WIthout having formed an opinion on streaming itself, there's a fundamental different between showing brand signs (like trademarked logos) and creative works (which are copyrighted). Both legally and (IMHO at lest) how much protection they should have.
Big difference between using a picture of the Paramount logo and posting a copy of one of their feature films.
posted by mark k at 5:18 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I may be missing a major point here or something. I find the idea of watching a game being streamed utterly boring.
I don't get it either, but in getting my kids into Breath of the Wild, they somehow discovered and enjoy watching other people play the game instead of, you know, playing it themselves. So far they just watch YouTube videos instead of Twitch or other live-streaming, but they seem to enjoy it as much as the game itself. So without meaning to, I've now become aware of several of the major Breath of the Wild streamers, and I have to say PointCrow is by far the most obnoxious—to the extent that he was the only streamer I would switch off even if my kids were actively watching.
posted by stopgap at 5:41 PM on April 19, 2023
I don't get it either, but in getting my kids into Breath of the Wild, they somehow discovered and enjoy watching other people play the game instead of, you know, playing it themselves. So far they just watch YouTube videos instead of Twitch or other live-streaming, but they seem to enjoy it as much as the game itself. So without meaning to, I've now become aware of several of the major Breath of the Wild streamers, and I have to say PointCrow is by far the most obnoxious—to the extent that he was the only streamer I would switch off even if my kids were actively watching.
posted by stopgap at 5:41 PM on April 19, 2023
Yeah, they don't want you pirating their games. Seems reasonable to me, even though I do understand that on some level it feels nice to take things without paying for them.
There are other reasons than illicit copying to jailbreak consoles. I jailbroke my PS3 to get back an advertised feature that I used. Turned out not to work as well as OtherOS did since there was no easy way to switch between modes, but that was my initial motivation. It was also nice to dump all the games I'd bought so I didn't risk killing the Blu-Ray drive again and having to pay Sony yet another $150 to replace it. That, at least, worked very well. Could it be used to get games without paying? Sure. But that wasn't the only use of the technology.
I had (still have, actually) one of those DS carts that can load games from a MicroSD card for a similar reason. Carrying around 50 DS carts is a pain in the ass, not to mention they're easy to lose. In that case I did have to download the games that I owned since I didn't have any way of dumping my own carts, for which I have zero qualms about having done since I already paid for the games and just wanted to format shift, as is my right under US law.
posted by wierdo at 6:31 PM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
There are other reasons than illicit copying to jailbreak consoles. I jailbroke my PS3 to get back an advertised feature that I used. Turned out not to work as well as OtherOS did since there was no easy way to switch between modes, but that was my initial motivation. It was also nice to dump all the games I'd bought so I didn't risk killing the Blu-Ray drive again and having to pay Sony yet another $150 to replace it. That, at least, worked very well. Could it be used to get games without paying? Sure. But that wasn't the only use of the technology.
I had (still have, actually) one of those DS carts that can load games from a MicroSD card for a similar reason. Carrying around 50 DS carts is a pain in the ass, not to mention they're easy to lose. In that case I did have to download the games that I owned since I didn't have any way of dumping my own carts, for which I have zero qualms about having done since I already paid for the games and just wanted to format shift, as is my right under US law.
posted by wierdo at 6:31 PM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I jumped through hoops I don't even remember the particulars of anymore to get my Wii U BOTW save onto my Switch (and bought a used switch with a known early serial number to be confident it would work). Nintendo had said it was not possible; in fact it was trivial except for the platform lockdowns.
That's the sort of thing that can be extremely annoying about Nintendo. And they do it for no clear reason. I would have never bought a Switch if the unofficial save transfer path wasn't there. I bought the Wii U super cheap used specifically for BOTW (I think I paid as much as the game itself) and it charmed me enough to play it on the Switch and check out Nintendo's other current titles.
In theory my Switch is still hackable, I could sideload emulators and whatnot, but in practice I haven't done anything unauthorized since the save transfer.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:52 PM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's the sort of thing that can be extremely annoying about Nintendo. And they do it for no clear reason. I would have never bought a Switch if the unofficial save transfer path wasn't there. I bought the Wii U super cheap used specifically for BOTW (I think I paid as much as the game itself) and it charmed me enough to play it on the Switch and check out Nintendo's other current titles.
In theory my Switch is still hackable, I could sideload emulators and whatnot, but in practice I haven't done anything unauthorized since the save transfer.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:52 PM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
So as an illustration, given that I was sort of responsible for kicking off the PointCrow discussion: there are streamers who will stream romhacks of Super Mario World. These take a digital, typically pirated, copy of Super Mario World, and then apply modifications to it that transform it into something completely different, such as "kaizo" versions which play deeply unfair tricks on the player. Nintendo are clearly aware these exist, because the Super Mario Maker games definitely take inspiration from them, but it crosses the line into transformative to me - it's taking the original "Mario" experience and subverting it to make something mean-spirited and comedic. I'd be livid if Nintendo started going after these romhacks.
Closer to the line are what are called "randomisers", that take a specific (pirated) version of a game like Link to the Past or Super Metroid, and make modifications to it to shuffle around the items in the game, which requires players to explore efficiently and use vastly different methods than normal to get around. These are fascinating to watch and are quite fun to play (although I think the Super Metroid randomiser unfortunately can't really allow a lot of interesting exploration without forcing players to go through a specific difficult area under-equipped). These don't really add any new content to what already exists, but I'd argue they are transformative, despite making fairly minimal modifications, because you have to play a randomiser very differently to the base game.
I don't know if a multiplayer mod crosses that line for me. I think the mod has to make the game play substantially differently, not just "with friends".
posted by Merus at 6:56 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Closer to the line are what are called "randomisers", that take a specific (pirated) version of a game like Link to the Past or Super Metroid, and make modifications to it to shuffle around the items in the game, which requires players to explore efficiently and use vastly different methods than normal to get around. These are fascinating to watch and are quite fun to play (although I think the Super Metroid randomiser unfortunately can't really allow a lot of interesting exploration without forcing players to go through a specific difficult area under-equipped). These don't really add any new content to what already exists, but I'd argue they are transformative, despite making fairly minimal modifications, because you have to play a randomiser very differently to the base game.
I don't know if a multiplayer mod crosses that line for me. I think the mod has to make the game play substantially differently, not just "with friends".
posted by Merus at 6:56 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
According to Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc. (the "time-shifting" case), if a technology has significant non-infringing uses, the creators of that technology shouldn't be on the hook for "contributory infringement". The DMCA made things a bit stricter, but a multiplayer mod isn't infringing in itself, and is pretty significant, so I'm not convinced Bowser couldn't have won out if he'd been willing and able to take his case further, but as is often the case, individuals being sued by large corporations have little actual recourse to the law, and are advised by their lawyers to plead guilty so they can avoid even harsher penalties.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 7:14 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 7:14 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
But Nintendo is well within their rights to ask that people not stream certain games.
What rights are these?
If we're talking about rights... Nintendo is merely asking YouTube to please take down these videos they don't like, and YouTube is saying, yup, not a problem. No need to get into the legal weeds over what is transformative or fair use.
An individual YouTuber doesn't have the ability to legally force YouTube to broadcast their content.
The Bowser case didn't make it to trial, so we don't really know if Nintendo would have been able to substantiate the damages they were claiming.
posted by xdvesper at 8:23 PM on April 19, 2023
What rights are these?
If we're talking about rights... Nintendo is merely asking YouTube to please take down these videos they don't like, and YouTube is saying, yup, not a problem. No need to get into the legal weeds over what is transformative or fair use.
An individual YouTuber doesn't have the ability to legally force YouTube to broadcast their content.
The Bowser case didn't make it to trial, so we don't really know if Nintendo would have been able to substantiate the damages they were claiming.
posted by xdvesper at 8:23 PM on April 19, 2023
He commissioned someone to design a multiplayer hack. That is, he paid someone to hack a Switch, develop ways to sideload an online multiplayer mode for Breath of the Wild, tested it with his friends and then went and posted multiple videos showing it off.
This is a great summary, and I just want to say, what Pointcrow did is awesome behavior of the sort which should be encouraged. Seriously, it is the kind of thing that makes me glad to be human. Nintendo issuing copyright strikes over it is petty evil fuckery, and while you are welcome to disagree, your disagreement is evil. Come the revolution, you all will be first up against the tree (which will then be chopped down, have a balloon attached, stasis cast on it, and then struck repeatedly until you and the tree are launched into the Out of Bounds, never to be heard from again.)
posted by surlyben at 8:57 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is a great summary, and I just want to say, what Pointcrow did is awesome behavior of the sort which should be encouraged. Seriously, it is the kind of thing that makes me glad to be human. Nintendo issuing copyright strikes over it is petty evil fuckery, and while you are welcome to disagree, your disagreement is evil. Come the revolution, you all will be first up against the tree (which will then be chopped down, have a balloon attached, stasis cast on it, and then struck repeatedly until you and the tree are launched into the Out of Bounds, never to be heard from again.)
posted by surlyben at 8:57 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nintendo is merely asking YouTube to please take down these videos they don't like, and YouTube is saying, yup, not a problem. No need to get into the legal weeds over what is transformative or fair use.
If Nintendo is filing DMCA notices with Youtube (and it sounds like it is), it sure is a problem.
I'm not sure what it is about U.S. copyright law that causes people to just assume that they understand exactly how it works.
posted by praemunire at 9:07 PM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
If Nintendo is filing DMCA notices with Youtube (and it sounds like it is), it sure is a problem.
I'm not sure what it is about U.S. copyright law that causes people to just assume that they understand exactly how it works.
posted by praemunire at 9:07 PM on April 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I find the idea of watching a game being streamed utterly boring.
I guess you all had all the quarters in the world as kids and didn't have to make do in arcades with standing around watching other people play! But, seriously, it can be as fun as watching anyone play any physical sport, or as boring. (Or worse, to be honest, since we don't generally ask the players to color-commentate as they go in physical sports.) I don't spend a ton of time watching streams or Let's Plays, but, with congenial players, they can be gently enjoyable background entertainment.
posted by praemunire at 9:11 PM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I guess you all had all the quarters in the world as kids and didn't have to make do in arcades with standing around watching other people play! But, seriously, it can be as fun as watching anyone play any physical sport, or as boring. (Or worse, to be honest, since we don't generally ask the players to color-commentate as they go in physical sports.) I don't spend a ton of time watching streams or Let's Plays, but, with congenial players, they can be gently enjoyable background entertainment.
posted by praemunire at 9:11 PM on April 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are many games I haven't bought because I had the option of watching a stream instead. Alien Isolation, Observation, Bridge Builder - all kinds of stuff.
Fair enough, you've convinced me. What do you think your punishment should be?
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:19 PM on April 19, 2023
Fair enough, you've convinced me. What do you think your punishment should be?
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:19 PM on April 19, 2023
It’s worth pointing out that Bowser put DRM on the chip he sold, and if you didn’t continue paying *him* it bricked your console. So like. He is not actually an innocent victim that I would plant my flag behind.
posted by Bottlecap at 9:50 PM on April 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 9:50 PM on April 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
> There are other reasons than illicit copying to jailbreak consoles.
Yeah, but. C'mon. ;-)
Personal anecdote that may have no bearing on reality, but: Every single person I've known who has jailbroken a game console... did it to pirate games. Like, without exception. Freedom of ownership, want to unlock that feature the company locked for dumb reasons, "I want to play games I bought the way I want..." Of course. All of that, I'm sure. And, y'know, also to pirate a fuck ton of games.
posted by chasing at 10:00 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but. C'mon. ;-)
Personal anecdote that may have no bearing on reality, but: Every single person I've known who has jailbroken a game console... did it to pirate games. Like, without exception. Freedom of ownership, want to unlock that feature the company locked for dumb reasons, "I want to play games I bought the way I want..." Of course. All of that, I'm sure. And, y'know, also to pirate a fuck ton of games.
posted by chasing at 10:00 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Jailbreaking the original xbox so as to run XBMC on it was quite popular. Though, one of main purposes of XBMC was to be able to play content obtained from Bittorrent or Usenet conveniently, over your home network, before there were a lot of options for that. And other linuxy media stuff.
To the extent people I knew used jailbroken xboxes to play pirated ROMs, they were largely for other, older consoles under emulation. Of course, this was most popular when the xbox was getting cheap on the used market. Not much interest in its titles then.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:40 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
To the extent people I knew used jailbroken xboxes to play pirated ROMs, they were largely for other, older consoles under emulation. Of course, this was most popular when the xbox was getting cheap on the used market. Not much interest in its titles then.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:40 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
And yet where is the outcry from Nike or other clothing brands when their branded clothes show up in stupid tiktok challenges or prank videos?
Maybe I'm getting old, but they sure did used to cry about it before the days of tiktok. Blurred out logos in stuff used to be pretty common.
Fair enough, you've convinced me. What do you think your punishment should be?
None. I just don't think the streamers deserve some sort of fucking medal for doing game publishers a supposed favour like so many in this thread seem to.
posted by Dysk at 10:43 PM on April 19, 2023
Maybe I'm getting old, but they sure did used to cry about it before the days of tiktok. Blurred out logos in stuff used to be pretty common.
Fair enough, you've convinced me. What do you think your punishment should be?
None. I just don't think the streamers deserve some sort of fucking medal for doing game publishers a supposed favour like so many in this thread seem to.
posted by Dysk at 10:43 PM on April 19, 2023
If we're talking about rights... Nintendo is merely asking YouTube to please take down these videos they don't like, and YouTube is saying, yup, not a problem. No need to get into the legal weeds over what is transformative or fair use.
The right of might then. He who has the bigger stick.
The "legal weeds" of transformation and fair use DO matter. Because if one doesn't take that into account you get emotional appeals about blades of grass and artists. Even if the game is a procedural generation one where the stated emotional appeal doesn't apply per the emotional appeal.
Otherwise you get people who think that because a check was written they have some kind of power. That way of thinking leads to suppression of art along with the accumulation of power to those who have a bigger stick. Such a system will only help the bottom line of corporations like Disney who are so kind to bring the Frozen soundtrack to everyone's lives.
Maybe I'm getting old, but they sure did used to cry about it before the days of tiktok.
The wailers and knashers of teeth still do.
And reasons given for the crying include that brand protection.
But caselaw is still not established for the issue when it comes to social media like it was for movies. At this point the non-enforcement is not gonna help the poor blade of grass artist get the pay day for their corporate masters will it?
I'd be in 100% favor of the same level "brand protection" applied to social media as is done for a movie. But only if applied for all cases by all brands. And that 14 year old should be bankrupted over such use because we need to think of the artists who make their living on the making of blades of grass as noted above.
posted by rough ashlar at 1:54 AM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
The right of might then. He who has the bigger stick.
The "legal weeds" of transformation and fair use DO matter. Because if one doesn't take that into account you get emotional appeals about blades of grass and artists. Even if the game is a procedural generation one where the stated emotional appeal doesn't apply per the emotional appeal.
Otherwise you get people who think that because a check was written they have some kind of power. That way of thinking leads to suppression of art along with the accumulation of power to those who have a bigger stick. Such a system will only help the bottom line of corporations like Disney who are so kind to bring the Frozen soundtrack to everyone's lives.
Maybe I'm getting old, but they sure did used to cry about it before the days of tiktok.
The wailers and knashers of teeth still do.
And reasons given for the crying include that brand protection.
But caselaw is still not established for the issue when it comes to social media like it was for movies. At this point the non-enforcement is not gonna help the poor blade of grass artist get the pay day for their corporate masters will it?
I'd be in 100% favor of the same level "brand protection" applied to social media as is done for a movie. But only if applied for all cases by all brands. And that 14 year old should be bankrupted over such use because we need to think of the artists who make their living on the making of blades of grass as noted above.
posted by rough ashlar at 1:54 AM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Streaming a recent game is one step removed from streaming a recent film without a license, talking over it and then claiming fair use.
The thing is that there are an infinite number of ways to play a game, so it is not at all comparable with watching a movie. A better analogy would be buying an expensive designer shirt and then the designer saying you can't have your photo taken while wearing the shirt because copyright.
Now if you take the shirt apart and turn it into a pattern and start selling those patterns so that others can make a copy that would be closer to this lawsuit.
posted by Lanark at 2:00 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
The thing is that there are an infinite number of ways to play a game, so it is not at all comparable with watching a movie. A better analogy would be buying an expensive designer shirt and then the designer saying you can't have your photo taken while wearing the shirt because copyright.
Now if you take the shirt apart and turn it into a pattern and start selling those patterns so that others can make a copy that would be closer to this lawsuit.
posted by Lanark at 2:00 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think was got Bowser into trouble was the fact that the device he and his partners manufactured and sold was actively advertised as a way to pirate games, not for some more legitimate / ethical jailbreak like running an indie game that wouldn't get past the Nintendo approval process, custom development, etc. It is as if someone was selling lock picks with a map of town indicating times when people are not at home and explaining how to get free stuff from your neighbors.
posted by interogative mood at 8:30 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 8:30 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
It does feel like a muddy post, it's a titch hard to follow the conversation as it shifts from what feels like Bowser to Pointcrow topic, which both seem pretty different. That Nintendo is litigious is a wider topic than here. Bowser seems pretty cut and dry.
Bowser was selling modding tools and systems, where the tools are for reworking Nintendo products. Which will result in the direct loss of sales, as those products were supposed to be finished consumable products in themselves. (I don't personally like this, but that's not the point)
This feels like punishing Bowser who was saying "Let's learn how to steal from, or just steal from, Nintendo." While I would root for a modding/Robin Hood, FAAFO, you know? I hate the carceral state, but...this is predictable and within the rules of our society. This was taking a product meant to be purchased, and making it free, or way cheaper, when the expected return is the reason the company exists.
Like, I love my hacker spaces, and hackers, think we should be able to hack things, will fight against the laws that say we can't use products as we want after being sold them (Especially tractors) but Bowser doesn't feel like that. Bowser feels like "I'm making something to steal something, or something that is stolen."
posted by burntbook at 11:05 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Bowser was selling modding tools and systems, where the tools are for reworking Nintendo products. Which will result in the direct loss of sales, as those products were supposed to be finished consumable products in themselves. (I don't personally like this, but that's not the point)
This feels like punishing Bowser who was saying "Let's learn how to steal from, or just steal from, Nintendo." While I would root for a modding/Robin Hood, FAAFO, you know? I hate the carceral state, but...this is predictable and within the rules of our society. This was taking a product meant to be purchased, and making it free, or way cheaper, when the expected return is the reason the company exists.
Like, I love my hacker spaces, and hackers, think we should be able to hack things, will fight against the laws that say we can't use products as we want after being sold them (Especially tractors) but Bowser doesn't feel like that. Bowser feels like "I'm making something to steal something, or something that is stolen."
posted by burntbook at 11:05 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
The question of Pointcrow, who has modded and hired modders, but primarily around creating content where the final product is just to watch it. It might encourage people to do the same because they want to create similar experiences for themselves or others, but materially the damage doesn't result in a loss of sales that can be measured meaningfully. Largely Pointcrow creates material that isn't modded.
The issues around Pointcrow feel like being told how to play a game after you buy it, as well as what content can be made after the purchase. The rules are fluid, and not applied evenly, and the use cases from Nintendo on videos are inflexible and punished in one scenario, and not applied at all in many others. It's a whimsical application of arbitrary justice on people who are trying to make a consistent living on something like streaming. And that's not getting into non-Nintendo products.
Streamers create content out of the game. They generally have to be talking, constantly, to release videos (partially due to the Terms of Service of the games they play, it varies case by case). They are crafting a specific experience of a game, which is what people are consuming. Speed runners create the experience of letting you see what a person who can basically break a game into being a new game. Modders show what it would be like if someone put something unintended into the game.
The content creation is crazy when it comes to the back end for streamers, most feel like game show hosts at this point, and often better than the game show hosts I grew up with. Calling them that also points out that they have a similar, but smaller, production scale to TV game shows as well.
Video editors, managers, social media teams, moderators of chat, moderators of discords, a wide variety of assistants. It's a whole ecosystem of people, and it's largely ignored because you only see one person on the screen.
Then you have the people who are watching the streams or youtube with the intention of interacting with it. Many people who post on youtube are streamers as well, but more of what they are doing is actually closer to full on creation of products.
If you are in a chat, you are contributing to the experience as well. Clever comments are called out, they become lore, and become the point of videos, and communities grow. Specific chats have a different kind of feel, because they are genuinely shaped around the person who is streaming, as well as who is moderating the chat. There are specific rewards for interacting in different ways on streams.
I will say that Pointcrow will be just fine at the end of the day. He's selling the experience of engaging with the way that "Pointcrow" does things, not stealing things. He has already moved on from playing modded BoTW. But it feels like bullying by Nintendo.
Nintendo will now continue to unevenly apply consequences on Pointcrow's channel in inconsistent ways with takedowns, but that's the same as it ever has been. They tend to take down more videos with harsher consequences for channels they have taken down from before, so it does mean that the uneven and arbitrary application of their rules will be weighted more heavily in this case, but it is pretty standard.
I really don't understand in an attention economy why Nintendo would want less attention paid to their products in a way that is pretty innocuous and in a way that encourages purchase or use, but Nintendo doesn't tend to listen to arguments unless someone can show a measurable uptick in sales directly correlating to use cases.
posted by burntbook at 11:13 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
The issues around Pointcrow feel like being told how to play a game after you buy it, as well as what content can be made after the purchase. The rules are fluid, and not applied evenly, and the use cases from Nintendo on videos are inflexible and punished in one scenario, and not applied at all in many others. It's a whimsical application of arbitrary justice on people who are trying to make a consistent living on something like streaming. And that's not getting into non-Nintendo products.
Streamers create content out of the game. They generally have to be talking, constantly, to release videos (partially due to the Terms of Service of the games they play, it varies case by case). They are crafting a specific experience of a game, which is what people are consuming. Speed runners create the experience of letting you see what a person who can basically break a game into being a new game. Modders show what it would be like if someone put something unintended into the game.
The content creation is crazy when it comes to the back end for streamers, most feel like game show hosts at this point, and often better than the game show hosts I grew up with. Calling them that also points out that they have a similar, but smaller, production scale to TV game shows as well.
Video editors, managers, social media teams, moderators of chat, moderators of discords, a wide variety of assistants. It's a whole ecosystem of people, and it's largely ignored because you only see one person on the screen.
Then you have the people who are watching the streams or youtube with the intention of interacting with it. Many people who post on youtube are streamers as well, but more of what they are doing is actually closer to full on creation of products.
If you are in a chat, you are contributing to the experience as well. Clever comments are called out, they become lore, and become the point of videos, and communities grow. Specific chats have a different kind of feel, because they are genuinely shaped around the person who is streaming, as well as who is moderating the chat. There are specific rewards for interacting in different ways on streams.
I will say that Pointcrow will be just fine at the end of the day. He's selling the experience of engaging with the way that "Pointcrow" does things, not stealing things. He has already moved on from playing modded BoTW. But it feels like bullying by Nintendo.
Nintendo will now continue to unevenly apply consequences on Pointcrow's channel in inconsistent ways with takedowns, but that's the same as it ever has been. They tend to take down more videos with harsher consequences for channels they have taken down from before, so it does mean that the uneven and arbitrary application of their rules will be weighted more heavily in this case, but it is pretty standard.
I really don't understand in an attention economy why Nintendo would want less attention paid to their products in a way that is pretty innocuous and in a way that encourages purchase or use, but Nintendo doesn't tend to listen to arguments unless someone can show a measurable uptick in sales directly correlating to use cases.
posted by burntbook at 11:13 AM on April 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm surprised that more gamers haven't gotten into prison abolition honestly.
A couple of years ago, I ran a fringe festival on Animal Crossing New Horizons. I got a dedicated Switch, set up an arts themed island, and organised a 12 hour stream from the island featuring a bevy of artists performing and presenting work on this island. I wanted to pay my artists, which was incredibly difficult - we couldn't really get grants because people assumed Nintendo was funding us, meanwhile we had to be careful not to get on Nintendo's radar because of the very real possibility that they'll shut us down. Then in a miracle move I got accepted into an (unrelated) arts fellowship with a large stipend and I used that money to pay my artists.
Literally the day before the stream, Nintendo put out a news release basically saying "please don't use ACNH for commercial purposes". I was full on panicked because we were collecting donations through this stream (again to pay artists) and I honestly thought we would be shut down. Luckily we weren't, and so far our island is still up, but urgh.
If Nintendo had released some kind of arts licensing for situations like mine (and many others that used ACNH as a creative platform for something else), I would be all over it!! Then again, given my current struggle to get a licence for a different video game property to turn into a stage play (they're keen but they only licence to established companies, and finding said company here has been hard), it'd probably be really expensive and restrictive.
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:09 PM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
A couple of years ago, I ran a fringe festival on Animal Crossing New Horizons. I got a dedicated Switch, set up an arts themed island, and organised a 12 hour stream from the island featuring a bevy of artists performing and presenting work on this island. I wanted to pay my artists, which was incredibly difficult - we couldn't really get grants because people assumed Nintendo was funding us, meanwhile we had to be careful not to get on Nintendo's radar because of the very real possibility that they'll shut us down. Then in a miracle move I got accepted into an (unrelated) arts fellowship with a large stipend and I used that money to pay my artists.
Literally the day before the stream, Nintendo put out a news release basically saying "please don't use ACNH for commercial purposes". I was full on panicked because we were collecting donations through this stream (again to pay artists) and I honestly thought we would be shut down. Luckily we weren't, and so far our island is still up, but urgh.
If Nintendo had released some kind of arts licensing for situations like mine (and many others that used ACNH as a creative platform for something else), I would be all over it!! Then again, given my current struggle to get a licence for a different video game property to turn into a stage play (they're keen but they only licence to established companies, and finding said company here has been hard), it'd probably be really expensive and restrictive.
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:09 PM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I found this press release issued by the DOJ on Bowser’s conviction and sentencing. I’ve also found the original indictment. According to prosecutors Bowser didn’t just hack Nintendo, he had products for Xbox and PlayStation as well. The products came bundled with pirated games and Bowser ran websites where you could download pirated games. They even had an extra license upgrade you had to pay in order to unlock the pirated games. In the indictment prosecutors note Team Xecuter at times cloaked its illegal activity with a purported desire to support gaming enthusiasts who wanted to design their own videogames for noncommercial use. However, the overwhelming demand and use for the enterprise’s devices was to play pirated videogames..
posted by interogative mood at 10:35 PM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 10:35 PM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I really don't understand in an attention economy why Nintendo would want less attention
We're all here in this thread paying Nintendo a lot of attention.
posted by Dysk at 12:50 AM on April 21, 2023
We're all here in this thread paying Nintendo a lot of attention.
posted by Dysk at 12:50 AM on April 21, 2023
This feels like punishing Bowser who was saying "Let's learn how to steal from, or just steal from, Nintendo."
This is not illegal. It's okay to teach, for example, lockpicking. There are
>I really don't understand in an attention economy why Nintendo would want less attention
We're all here in this thread paying Nintendo a lot of attention.
The scale of the attention from this thread is microscopic compared to the attention generated by streamers. Also, this attention is entirely negative. It's not true that all PR is good PR, a lot there depends on context. Nintendo succeeds in part because they have this reputation of a whimsical, family-friendly company. Compare to Disney, which is similarly family-friendly but their name is also nearly a synonym for an aggressively litigious corporation. Nintendo could use some more media light shone on their legal processes.
posted by JHarris at 8:07 AM on April 21, 2023
This is not illegal. It's okay to teach, for example, lockpicking. There are
>I really don't understand in an attention economy why Nintendo would want less attention
We're all here in this thread paying Nintendo a lot of attention.
The scale of the attention from this thread is microscopic compared to the attention generated by streamers. Also, this attention is entirely negative. It's not true that all PR is good PR, a lot there depends on context. Nintendo succeeds in part because they have this reputation of a whimsical, family-friendly company. Compare to Disney, which is similarly family-friendly but their name is also nearly a synonym for an aggressively litigious corporation. Nintendo could use some more media light shone on their legal processes.
posted by JHarris at 8:07 AM on April 21, 2023
Compare to Disney, which is similarly family-friendly but their name is also nearly a synonym for an aggressively litigious corporation.
Last I checked, Disney weren't exactly suffering as a result. Nor are Nintendo. People keep saying that this will burn all their goodwill and alienate all their fans, but experience doesn't suggest that this is the case.
posted by Dysk at 8:22 AM on April 21, 2023
Last I checked, Disney weren't exactly suffering as a result. Nor are Nintendo. People keep saying that this will burn all their goodwill and alienate all their fans, but experience doesn't suggest that this is the case.
posted by Dysk at 8:22 AM on April 21, 2023
Every single person I've known who has jailbroken a game console... did it to pirate games.
I jailbroke my Wii because I had a bunch of DVDs and no DVD player, and it seemed silly to buy one when I knew the hardware I already owned could do it.
posted by solotoro at 8:32 AM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I jailbroke my Wii because I had a bunch of DVDs and no DVD player, and it seemed silly to buy one when I knew the hardware I already owned could do it.
posted by solotoro at 8:32 AM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I read the indictment too. If they wanted to go after Bowser for selling pirated games, fair enough. But most of the indictment, and at least half of the charges, are about breaking anti-circumvention laws, and those laws are bullshit. Nintendo does not have the moral right to prevent people from hacking the devices they own, and I don't believe they have the moral right to prevent people from selling hacking tools either, even if the goal is to play pirated games.
Rights-holders like Nintendo take the position that they are entitled to compensation every time someone consumes the content they own. Modern copyright law has normalized that position. But that's not how "content consumption" actually works. The number of people who pay has always been much smaller than the number of people who read or watch or listen, because people have always borrowed, shared, resold, and read or watched or listened together. (In the days of physical media, we had carve-outs like the first sale doctrine to reflect this. Secondary uses are built into the sale price.) The world would be a better place if folks like Nintendo would chill out a little and recognize that not every unpaid interaction with their stuff is a lost sale, that those interactions are just a natural and inevitable part of "producing content."
Also, like, do streaming platforms not pay mechanical royalties? Isn't there a revenue stream for compensating rights-holders already?
posted by Gerald Bostock at 9:00 AM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Rights-holders like Nintendo take the position that they are entitled to compensation every time someone consumes the content they own. Modern copyright law has normalized that position. But that's not how "content consumption" actually works. The number of people who pay has always been much smaller than the number of people who read or watch or listen, because people have always borrowed, shared, resold, and read or watched or listened together. (In the days of physical media, we had carve-outs like the first sale doctrine to reflect this. Secondary uses are built into the sale price.) The world would be a better place if folks like Nintendo would chill out a little and recognize that not every unpaid interaction with their stuff is a lost sale, that those interactions are just a natural and inevitable part of "producing content."
Also, like, do streaming platforms not pay mechanical royalties? Isn't there a revenue stream for compensating rights-holders already?
posted by Gerald Bostock at 9:00 AM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Last I checked, Disney weren't exactly suffering as a result. Nor are Nintendo. People keep saying that this will burn all their goodwill and alienate all their fans, but experience doesn't suggest that this is the case.
I mean, we don't know how well Disney would do if they weren't super litigious. But to follow your reasoning, we shouldn't even care that Nintendo's lawyers are awful. At least we have the chance to hold them account individually, no matter how slight the cumulative effect might be.
posted by JHarris at 6:14 PM on April 21, 2023
I mean, we don't know how well Disney would do if they weren't super litigious. But to follow your reasoning, we shouldn't even care that Nintendo's lawyers are awful. At least we have the chance to hold them account individually, no matter how slight the cumulative effect might be.
posted by JHarris at 6:14 PM on April 21, 2023
I think it'd be more productive to change the broken laws than to expect megacorporations to not take advantage of the legal avenues they have out of the goodness of their hearts, or to expect this kind of pressure which has historically not achieved success to suddenly start working.
posted by Dysk at 7:00 PM on April 21, 2023
posted by Dysk at 7:00 PM on April 21, 2023
it'd be more productive to change the broken laws
I'd love to see broken laws changed. However over the course of a half century of life I've watched law in this area get drastically worse despite growing outcry and reasoned objection, rather than better. Profitable law rarely seems to change in such a way as to risk that profit. Ever it ratchets in the direction of rent-seeking and profit protection.
Laws as written are not always right. Anti-circumvention laws never are.
posted by majick at 7:22 PM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd love to see broken laws changed. However over the course of a half century of life I've watched law in this area get drastically worse despite growing outcry and reasoned objection, rather than better. Profitable law rarely seems to change in such a way as to risk that profit. Ever it ratchets in the direction of rent-seeking and profit protection.
Laws as written are not always right. Anti-circumvention laws never are.
posted by majick at 7:22 PM on April 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree that the laws aren't right. I see it similarly to how I see prohibition: it's stupid and wrong, but it's also not reasonable to expect to be able to walk down the street in my country smoking a spliff without risk of arrest (I don't live somewhere with legalisation or decriminalisation are a thing), and someone staking their career on doing exactly that very publicly shouldn't be too surprised when the foreseeable consequences come knocking. I want the laws changed too, but putting the cart before the horse is asking for trouble. They asked, trouble came knocking, and now they're shocked and outraged?
posted by Dysk at 8:32 PM on April 21, 2023
posted by Dysk at 8:32 PM on April 21, 2023
Well, sure, the guy's a jack-hole because he was selling something for money that, honestly, should just have been some useful utility getting passed around, maybe with a middle finger splash screen or something. Throw the source out there and let a thousand malware-ridden crappy malicious Windows download sites bloom. The ethical answer to a bunch of corpo dudes going around rent-seeking through abuse of the legislature is not building a system for rent-seeking their victims. I'm in full agreement.
Doesn't mean he needs to cop a $15 million club to the dome, though. Disproportionate application of unjust law throws the unjustness of the law into even starker relief.
posted by majick at 8:53 PM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Doesn't mean he needs to cop a $15 million club to the dome, though. Disproportionate application of unjust law throws the unjustness of the law into even starker relief.
posted by majick at 8:53 PM on April 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Bungie has also just finished a successful suit against people selling cheating kits.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:20 AM on May 1, 2023
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:20 AM on May 1, 2023
If only Bungie QA was as good as its legal. (One of Bungie's GCs is a rather charming presence on Twitter.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:09 AM on May 1, 2023
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:09 AM on May 1, 2023
Meanwhile, ha ha ha, Tears of the Kingdom leaked two weeks early anyway.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:49 PM on May 1, 2023
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:49 PM on May 1, 2023
« Older People Lived in This Cave for 78,000 Years | Deck of Cards. Useless? Perhaps. Cool? Depends Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by box at 5:00 AM on April 19, 2023 [36 favorites]