Apu hasn't uttered a word on "The Simpsons" in six years.
April 28, 2023 7:32 AM Subscribe
In 2017, Hari Kondabolu created The Problem with Apu: a documentary that examined and criticized the character of Apu on The Simpsons, voiced by white actor Hank Azaria. Azaria, notably, did not appear in the film, and was not available for comment. Now, nearly six years later, Azaria and Kondabolu sat down with NPR's Codeswitch to discuss what came out of that callout.
I really enjoyed this conversation, in which Azaria takes a lot of ownership and responsibility for the damage that he caused, and Kondabolu discusses how this has ironically made him even more inextricable from the Simpsons character.
I really enjoyed this conversation, in which Azaria takes a lot of ownership and responsibility for the damage that he caused, and Kondabolu discusses how this has ironically made him even more inextricable from the Simpsons character.
It's a really thoughtful conversation between two people (with a moderator) who are honestly wrestling with the issue and larger, real-life effects of the character of Apu. Thanks for posting this.
Not that I've seen much of The Simpsons, but the character not saying a word in six years....says a lot in a different way.
Neither have I, so I had to look this up -- "The final time that Azaria voiced Apu was in the season 29 premiere "The Serfsons" in 2017; since then, Apu has appeared as a background character." One of the things Azaria mentions in the discussion is an incidence where a southeast asian person was physically attacked while the assailant referred to them as "Apu." I don't have an answer for this -- only more questions. In this moment, I am not sure how a show like the dominantly-white and buffoonery-heavy Simpsons can portray Apu in any way that doesn't feel like a "punch-down."
posted by Silvery Fish at 8:21 AM on April 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Not that I've seen much of The Simpsons, but the character not saying a word in six years....says a lot in a different way.
Neither have I, so I had to look this up -- "The final time that Azaria voiced Apu was in the season 29 premiere "The Serfsons" in 2017; since then, Apu has appeared as a background character." One of the things Azaria mentions in the discussion is an incidence where a southeast asian person was physically attacked while the assailant referred to them as "Apu." I don't have an answer for this -- only more questions. In this moment, I am not sure how a show like the dominantly-white and buffoonery-heavy Simpsons can portray Apu in any way that doesn't feel like a "punch-down."
posted by Silvery Fish at 8:21 AM on April 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Reading that conversation was like watching a couple of people slowly exhale after holding their breath for half a decade. Thanks for posting it.
(I feel like the correct solution would be just to have Apu drop the accent and talk like everybody else. If any of the characters ask he can just say "of course I don't have an accent. I've lived here for thirty five years, asshole.")
posted by phooky at 8:22 AM on April 28, 2023 [55 favorites]
(I feel like the correct solution would be just to have Apu drop the accent and talk like everybody else. If any of the characters ask he can just say "of course I don't have an accent. I've lived here for thirty five years, asshole.")
posted by phooky at 8:22 AM on April 28, 2023 [55 favorites]
Will be watching this later when I can give it my full and proper attention. I'm glad that Hari and Hank are sitting down to discuss it. It was the one thing really missing since Hari released the documentary.
Still deeply disappointed with The Simpsons reaction to that documentary but The Simpsons hasn't really been relevant the last 10+ years anyways. I enjoyed the first 10 seasons and then bounced off here and there, but the show has gone on too long (currently 34 seasons, and already confirmed renewal for 35 & 36).
This documentary from a few years ago and the subsequent discussion about race, identity, & representation is the only thing that had me thinking about this show. It's a show that has long past its prime.
posted by Fizz at 8:23 AM on April 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Still deeply disappointed with The Simpsons reaction to that documentary but The Simpsons hasn't really been relevant the last 10+ years anyways. I enjoyed the first 10 seasons and then bounced off here and there, but the show has gone on too long (currently 34 seasons, and already confirmed renewal for 35 & 36).
This documentary from a few years ago and the subsequent discussion about race, identity, & representation is the only thing that had me thinking about this show. It's a show that has long past its prime.
posted by Fizz at 8:23 AM on April 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
(I mean, the real real correct solution is to have a season of The Simpsons where nobody talks and they just do physical comedy and angrily text at each other while in the same room)
posted by phooky at 8:24 AM on April 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by phooky at 8:24 AM on April 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
have Apu drop the accent and talk like everybody else
Simpsons did it (kind of).
posted by box at 8:25 AM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Simpsons did it (kind of).
posted by box at 8:25 AM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
That, uh, wow, um, sorry, I've got to run and go return a monkey's paw and then shut up forever
posted by phooky at 8:28 AM on April 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by phooky at 8:28 AM on April 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm glad that Hank Azaria has grown so much, because I do love him as an actor, especially in Mystery Men. Of course, Blue Raja is problematic in his own ways. It feels like there are are genres and subjects of comedy, hilarious though they may be, that white Western culture just isn't mature enough to be trusted with.
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:28 AM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:28 AM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I am not sure how a show like the dominantly-white and buffoonery-heavy Simpsons can portray Apu in any way that doesn't feel like a "punch-down."
Apu, after years of savvy investing, conducts a venture-backed hostile takeover of the Springfield Nuclear Power Plant.
TFA skipped the obligatory discussion of Short Circuit.
So far as Azaria's impressions go, one wonders how Agador-Spartacus would land now.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:29 AM on April 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Apu, after years of savvy investing, conducts a venture-backed hostile takeover of the Springfield Nuclear Power Plant.
TFA skipped the obligatory discussion of Short Circuit.
So far as Azaria's impressions go, one wonders how Agador-Spartacus would land now.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:29 AM on April 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
It was nice that they finally had a public chat, since the conversation says they have had private chats about it. Putting this out there hopefully helps calm the vitriol Hari still encounters for making the Doc in the first place.
You can see the frustration in Hari when he encountered so many people who were reacting without watching the documentary. And Azaria's growth when he finally realized he caused real harm.
posted by indianbadger1 at 8:32 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
You can see the frustration in Hari when he encountered so many people who were reacting without watching the documentary. And Azaria's growth when he finally realized he caused real harm.
posted by indianbadger1 at 8:32 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
So far as Azaria's impressions go, one wonders how Agador-Spartacus would land now.
I did consider "Now do The Birdcage" as a post title, but that felt like a whole other conversation to have.
I feel like the correct solution would be just to have Apu drop the accent and talk like everybody else.
My wife and I were discussing this last night, specifically why they haven't just recast the role with a more appropriate voice actor. My theory, based on the initial response and the Lisa Simpson book episode (S29E15, No Good Read Goes Unpunished), is that Matt Groening would rather silence the character than let the critics "win."
posted by Four String Riot at 8:40 AM on April 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
I did consider "Now do The Birdcage" as a post title, but that felt like a whole other conversation to have.
I feel like the correct solution would be just to have Apu drop the accent and talk like everybody else.
My wife and I were discussing this last night, specifically why they haven't just recast the role with a more appropriate voice actor. My theory, based on the initial response and the Lisa Simpson book episode (S29E15, No Good Read Goes Unpunished), is that Matt Groening would rather silence the character than let the critics "win."
posted by Four String Riot at 8:40 AM on April 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
Damnit, I have so much work to do today and this is a conversation I've been waiting to see ever since I watched the documentary, which I found to be excellent and Kondabolu's argument in it pretty much unassailable. Like Kondabolu I grew up a massive Simpsons fan and still am to this day, and like pretty much every Simpsons fan that means I am referring exclusively to those early seasons that just so happen to be most tainted by Azaria's performance of Apu. The doc does a good job of demonstrating how you can still love something, be a fan, and still examine it through a critical lens and call out aspects of it.
Something I often think about: I can't help but wonder why Toby Huss's performance of Kahn on King of the Hill doesn't undergo similar scrutiny, and can't tell if it's because KOTH was not nearly as big of a cultural force as The Simpsons, and therefore did not yield nearly as large of a discourse? Or if there is something to be said about the fact that Kahn is also a richer and better-written character who gets to be funny and flawed in ways that goes far beyond what the Simpsons did with Apu (which amounted to "LOL he's Indian" brownfacing and not much else). I don't know the answer to these questions, and I know that it DOES get it's share of criticism, but I think about it often as a mega-fan of that show as well. If I remember correctly I recall reading once that KOTH even won an award from an AAPI Media organization for positive representation, which is *wild* to think about given that at the end of the day it is indeed a white guy doing an impression of a minority in a way that - to paraphrase Kondabolu - would absolutely get the shit beaten out of him in any other context! And I'm not sure Huss or Mike Judge has ever commented on it to this day like Azaria has?
posted by windbox at 9:23 AM on April 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
Something I often think about: I can't help but wonder why Toby Huss's performance of Kahn on King of the Hill doesn't undergo similar scrutiny, and can't tell if it's because KOTH was not nearly as big of a cultural force as The Simpsons, and therefore did not yield nearly as large of a discourse? Or if there is something to be said about the fact that Kahn is also a richer and better-written character who gets to be funny and flawed in ways that goes far beyond what the Simpsons did with Apu (which amounted to "LOL he's Indian" brownfacing and not much else). I don't know the answer to these questions, and I know that it DOES get it's share of criticism, but I think about it often as a mega-fan of that show as well. If I remember correctly I recall reading once that KOTH even won an award from an AAPI Media organization for positive representation, which is *wild* to think about given that at the end of the day it is indeed a white guy doing an impression of a minority in a way that - to paraphrase Kondabolu - would absolutely get the shit beaten out of him in any other context! And I'm not sure Huss or Mike Judge has ever commented on it to this day like Azaria has?
posted by windbox at 9:23 AM on April 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
Four String Riot, that point about Matt Groening sounds just about right. Listening now - thank you.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 9:24 AM on April 28, 2023
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 9:24 AM on April 28, 2023
dominantly-white and buffoonery-heavy Simpsons can portray Apu in any way that doesn't feel like a "punch-down."
The weird thing is that, above and beyond the lazy stereotyping, Apu came across (in the episodes where he got more than generic characterization) as one of the least terrible people in Springfield. He's apparently intelligent, well-educated, empathic, possessed of a reasonably well-developed moral sense, rarely hypocritical, and has good relationships with family and friends. Admittedly being a good person with useful skills plays into a stereotype which is insidious in its own right (the "model minority" role which is particularly foisted on south Asians and east Asians), but there are aspects of it which are subtler than punching down.
(Apropos of Springfield being white, I feel this has been mentioned before, but it's kinda strange that "cartoon yellow", which is not a remotely realistic analogue of "white" is the default skin tone in Springfield, but that Carl and Apu have dark skin tones. It's the nonmarkedness of white people made explicit, that "skin is yellow" overrides whiteness but not anything else)
posted by jackbishop at 9:42 AM on April 28, 2023 [39 favorites]
The weird thing is that, above and beyond the lazy stereotyping, Apu came across (in the episodes where he got more than generic characterization) as one of the least terrible people in Springfield. He's apparently intelligent, well-educated, empathic, possessed of a reasonably well-developed moral sense, rarely hypocritical, and has good relationships with family and friends. Admittedly being a good person with useful skills plays into a stereotype which is insidious in its own right (the "model minority" role which is particularly foisted on south Asians and east Asians), but there are aspects of it which are subtler than punching down.
(Apropos of Springfield being white, I feel this has been mentioned before, but it's kinda strange that "cartoon yellow", which is not a remotely realistic analogue of "white" is the default skin tone in Springfield, but that Carl and Apu have dark skin tones. It's the nonmarkedness of white people made explicit, that "skin is yellow" overrides whiteness but not anything else)
posted by jackbishop at 9:42 AM on April 28, 2023 [39 favorites]
because KOTH was not nearly as big of a cultural force, or because Kahn is also a richer and better-written character
Little of both, I think.
I feel like I'm criticizing the tv industry more than am praising King of the Hill when I say that it had, at the time, some of the best treatment of Asian-American immigrant experiences on American tv.
posted by box at 9:53 AM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Little of both, I think.
I feel like I'm criticizing the tv industry more than am praising King of the Hill when I say that it had, at the time, some of the best treatment of Asian-American immigrant experiences on American tv.
posted by box at 9:53 AM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
The unrealistic fear of my most cynical inner self is that there'll be some up and coming multi-racial, lesbian, muslim, disabled comedian/writer who gets tapped to be a writer for like 10 comedy shows at once so that they can be pointed to whenever questions about representation happen.
I once made the horrible mistake of doing an Apu impression in front of a South Indian coworker and friend and he was so insanely delighted that he never stopped begging me to do the voice for the next two years or so. I felt vaguely guilty and awkward every time, but I can still only vaguely imagine how Hank Azaria feels.
I'm gonna have to watch more Hari Kondabolu.
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:57 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I once made the horrible mistake of doing an Apu impression in front of a South Indian coworker and friend and he was so insanely delighted that he never stopped begging me to do the voice for the next two years or so. I felt vaguely guilty and awkward every time, but I can still only vaguely imagine how Hank Azaria feels.
I'm gonna have to watch more Hari Kondabolu.
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:57 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Apu came across (in the episodes where he got more than generic characterization) as one of the least terrible people in Springfield...admittedly...plays into the "model minority" role...
Agreed and agreed.
I am a white person, and to me, it felt like Apu was written as what a white person THINKS and Indian immigrant is -- 8 kids, works at a mini-mart, overly sunny and deferential (from a very white, very middle-American-culture perspective).
As a maybe/maybe-not useful contrast, I've enjoyed Reservation Dogs, which has a 100% Indigenous writer's room. I lived for a period of time on the Navajo reservation, and what gets the humorous treatment in Rez Dogs sounds a lot like the jokes the Navajo nationals would make with each other about each other -- and has avoided the Anglo jokes and stereotypes that they talked about as being offense to them.
Again - I'm not offering a solution, because I am not the person who should be making that determination. This is me opening boxes I have in my head of non-white representation in media and trying to do some compare/contrast/listen/learn from it.
posted by Silvery Fish at 10:24 AM on April 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Agreed and agreed.
I am a white person, and to me, it felt like Apu was written as what a white person THINKS and Indian immigrant is -- 8 kids, works at a mini-mart, overly sunny and deferential (from a very white, very middle-American-culture perspective).
As a maybe/maybe-not useful contrast, I've enjoyed Reservation Dogs, which has a 100% Indigenous writer's room. I lived for a period of time on the Navajo reservation, and what gets the humorous treatment in Rez Dogs sounds a lot like the jokes the Navajo nationals would make with each other about each other -- and has avoided the Anglo jokes and stereotypes that they talked about as being offense to them.
Again - I'm not offering a solution, because I am not the person who should be making that determination. This is me opening boxes I have in my head of non-white representation in media and trying to do some compare/contrast/listen/learn from it.
posted by Silvery Fish at 10:24 AM on April 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
My theory...is that Matt Groening would rather silence the character than let the critics "win."
For the record, Sam Simon was the showrunner when Apu made his first appearance and, as I recall, the character was written as a generic store clerk but when Hank Azaria did the Apu voice during the table read everyone in the room thought it was so funny that they re-wrote the character to fit the voice. I believe Matt Groening was actually opposed to this, due to it's being a well-worn hacky comedy trope, but was basically outvoted by the other show producers.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:37 AM on April 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
For the record, Sam Simon was the showrunner when Apu made his first appearance and, as I recall, the character was written as a generic store clerk but when Hank Azaria did the Apu voice during the table read everyone in the room thought it was so funny that they re-wrote the character to fit the voice. I believe Matt Groening was actually opposed to this, due to it's being a well-worn hacky comedy trope, but was basically outvoted by the other show producers.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:37 AM on April 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
I kind of wish they accidentally gave Apu a cliche turban, then he could be Sikh and they could have leaned way in to him in totally culturally relevant and healthy in a number of ways like being a total community minded hero feeding most of Springfield after a disaster involving monorails or power plants or something.
When 9/11 happened I lived near one of those rare and independent franchised 7-11 that was owned by a really nice Sikh fellow and family, and of course he had fucking bricks thrown through his windows. It was really depressing and so stupid.
I had a brief, naive moment of hope that we'd have a national conversation about economic colonialism but that fantasy died just hours after the WTC collapsed and I went to that 7-11 to grab a bottle of wine only find him boarding up his broken windows and looking totally scared, disgusted and horrified. I can't imagine what he went through with dealing with the news and events of that day like every other American and then having to deal with all of that on top of it.
That guy was so generous and patient and often gave store credit to almost anyone who was a neighborhood regular even if it was for beer or wine and cashed people's paychecks and other services.
There's so many ways Apu could have been a great main character that was kind, funny and culturally appropriate and educational but instead they did all of that.
posted by loquacious at 11:15 AM on April 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
When 9/11 happened I lived near one of those rare and independent franchised 7-11 that was owned by a really nice Sikh fellow and family, and of course he had fucking bricks thrown through his windows. It was really depressing and so stupid.
I had a brief, naive moment of hope that we'd have a national conversation about economic colonialism but that fantasy died just hours after the WTC collapsed and I went to that 7-11 to grab a bottle of wine only find him boarding up his broken windows and looking totally scared, disgusted and horrified. I can't imagine what he went through with dealing with the news and events of that day like every other American and then having to deal with all of that on top of it.
That guy was so generous and patient and often gave store credit to almost anyone who was a neighborhood regular even if it was for beer or wine and cashed people's paychecks and other services.
There's so many ways Apu could have been a great main character that was kind, funny and culturally appropriate and educational but instead they did all of that.
posted by loquacious at 11:15 AM on April 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
I'm just tired of S. Asian men and women being portrayed in the most reductive ways possible when on screen. And while there are many tv shows and films that are now starting to finally get it and are portraying my people in a way that is more real, more human, and not just a cliche.
We still have a long ass way to go (looking at you Raj from The Big Bang Theory & Al from United States of Al) fuck you very much Chuck Lorre. I honestly feel like Chuck Lorre picked up the hateful torch that The Simpsons room left on the ground with regards to hateful bigoted stereotypes.
We can be better and I'm glad this conversation happened. Glad that Hank finally gets it, though its really fucked up it took this long and this many people to finally get through to him. But progress, even slow progress is still welcome.
posted by Fizz at 11:23 AM on April 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
We still have a long ass way to go (looking at you Raj from The Big Bang Theory & Al from United States of Al) fuck you very much Chuck Lorre. I honestly feel like Chuck Lorre picked up the hateful torch that The Simpsons room left on the ground with regards to hateful bigoted stereotypes.
We can be better and I'm glad this conversation happened. Glad that Hank finally gets it, though its really fucked up it took this long and this many people to finally get through to him. But progress, even slow progress is still welcome.
posted by Fizz at 11:23 AM on April 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
And a big thank you to Hari! So glad he made this documentary and so sorry to hear how much he had to put up with afterwards. What a king.
posted by Fizz at 11:25 AM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 11:25 AM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
I believe Matt Groening was actually opposed to this, due to it's being a well-worn hacky comedy trope, but was basically outvoted by the other show producers.
It's disappointing Groening reacted the way he did to the Apu thing because in the early days he was opposed to a lot of this kind of racial humor. You can see on storyboards included on the DVDs of the early seasons that he'd write in notes about, e.g., toning down how a non-white character was drawn because it was a racist caricature jokingly signed with "PC Matt", and writers tell stories about how he hated things like Hitler jokes and fought against them getting on the show.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:47 AM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's disappointing Groening reacted the way he did to the Apu thing because in the early days he was opposed to a lot of this kind of racial humor. You can see on storyboards included on the DVDs of the early seasons that he'd write in notes about, e.g., toning down how a non-white character was drawn because it was a racist caricature jokingly signed with "PC Matt", and writers tell stories about how he hated things like Hitler jokes and fought against them getting on the show.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:47 AM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Fizz: ...there are many tv shows and films that are now starting to finally get it and are portraying my people in a way that is more real, more human, and not just a cliche.
Which ones do you feel are doing the best job? I can always use some better media in my diet, and I am grateful to have the good stuff pointed out if you don't mind me asking.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:42 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Which ones do you feel are doing the best job? I can always use some better media in my diet, and I am grateful to have the good stuff pointed out if you don't mind me asking.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:42 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
@wenestvedt, this list is a pretty decent list (don't agree with all of it) but its got some fun shows with some stand out actors.
Also, Polite Society just got released and I've heard its a lot of fun.
posted by Fizz at 12:58 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also, Polite Society just got released and I've heard its a lot of fun.
posted by Fizz at 12:58 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Oh, just this week I saw Polite Society as a book and grabbed it -- I will look for the movie, too!
And now I am off to check that list. Thanks, Fizz!
posted by wenestvedt at 1:18 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
And now I am off to check that list. Thanks, Fizz!
posted by wenestvedt at 1:18 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
One of the things Azaria mentions in the discussion is an incidence where a southeast asian person was physically attacked while the assailant referred to them as "Apu."
Not knowing the incident in question, I can't say whether anyone's gotten the victim's racial identity correct, but Hank Azaria says the victim was Middle Eastern, and Middle East and South East Asia are dramatically different places. Though (especially after 9/11) it's not like anyone could tell the difference between Middle East, South Asia, and South East Asia (let alone grasp the idea that people can migrate between regions in Asia!!) - which is why loquacious's suggestion of "give Apu a turban to make him Sikh" wouldn't work. Lots of Sikh people became targets of Islamophobic violence simply because of that turban, because turban + brown = terrorist apparently.
How are we supposed to do this kind of thing at scale, to shake people awake, without it being so costly to the person who was doing the shaking, right?
If anyone knows the answer, let me know. I lost an entire burlesque career over this (pointing out racism) and it took about 6 years or so before the people in the scene actually recognised what I was doing and apologised to me for icing me out.
posted by creatrixtiara at 10:46 PM on April 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Not knowing the incident in question, I can't say whether anyone's gotten the victim's racial identity correct, but Hank Azaria says the victim was Middle Eastern, and Middle East and South East Asia are dramatically different places. Though (especially after 9/11) it's not like anyone could tell the difference between Middle East, South Asia, and South East Asia (let alone grasp the idea that people can migrate between regions in Asia!!) - which is why loquacious's suggestion of "give Apu a turban to make him Sikh" wouldn't work. Lots of Sikh people became targets of Islamophobic violence simply because of that turban, because turban + brown = terrorist apparently.
How are we supposed to do this kind of thing at scale, to shake people awake, without it being so costly to the person who was doing the shaking, right?
If anyone knows the answer, let me know. I lost an entire burlesque career over this (pointing out racism) and it took about 6 years or so before the people in the scene actually recognised what I was doing and apologised to me for icing me out.
posted by creatrixtiara at 10:46 PM on April 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
How are we supposed to do this kind of thing at scale, to shake people awake, without it being so costly to the person who was doing the shaking, right?
Allies and collective imagination. It can't be on the victim to change individuals around them, no, we must be a fair and just society that listens and sets thing right when we're told they're wrong.
Azaria was afraid he'd lose individual status -- and that's how it unravels, causing fighting between individuals that stops us forming a collective. (That and people get tied to feeling safe as an individual and can also hide personal gains from unfairness by burying the costs elsewhere in their community -- technically un-community -- because it's out of sight and out of mind.)
Nth-ing "this felt like a relieved sigh after half a decade." Nice framing, there's still justice to achieve.
posted by k3ninho at 1:06 AM on April 29, 2023
Allies and collective imagination. It can't be on the victim to change individuals around them, no, we must be a fair and just society that listens and sets thing right when we're told they're wrong.
Azaria was afraid he'd lose individual status -- and that's how it unravels, causing fighting between individuals that stops us forming a collective. (That and people get tied to feeling safe as an individual and can also hide personal gains from unfairness by burying the costs elsewhere in their community -- technically un-community -- because it's out of sight and out of mind.)
Nth-ing "this felt like a relieved sigh after half a decade." Nice framing, there's still justice to achieve.
posted by k3ninho at 1:06 AM on April 29, 2023
Not knowing the incident in question, I can't say whether anyone's gotten the victim's racial identity correct, but Hank Azaria says the victim was Middle Eastern, and Middle East and South East Asia are dramatically different places.
That was me, I made the original error, due to poor listening and not confirming what I thought I heard. I agree with the points you make in the rest of your post and also felt I needed to put my hand up and own my error.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:48 AM on April 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
That was me, I made the original error, due to poor listening and not confirming what I thought I heard. I agree with the points you make in the rest of your post and also felt I needed to put my hand up and own my error.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:48 AM on April 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Racial issues aside, I think that one of the present day issues with Apu is that dude is a shopkeeper.
There's been a real change over the past 30 years--and yeah, it's been more than 30 years of The Simpsons--that depicting anyone under a certain level of wealth and education is depressing at best and harmful at worst. You see the change in a lot of long-running media--like if you look at old Sesame Street, there are a lot of adults (or puppets of adults) around, modeling various working-class or middle-class jobs that the child is supposed to take an interest in. That fell away and now you have the modern version where there are no adults except celebrities. It's a street, but there aren't any people on it that work, because that's not something that is considered pleasant or helpful to think about.
It really struck me when the controversy about editing Dahl sprung up. There's a section of The Witches where Dahl starts creeping out the reader by pointing out how witches are hiding everywhere. They could be secretaries or even the woman at the till at the grocery store! That section was edited to something like "they could even be scientists or directors of companies!" Now that everyone has their own personal computer, I'm not sure if there are still really secretaries, but the elimination of the grocery store worker struck me. There are still cashiers around but the young reader isn't to think about that type of woman--just like you don't want your kid calling someone fat or stupid, she's not something you'd want poisoning your developing mind. Like a Victorian child presumably passed by "ladies of the night," but that wasn't something to be put in Grady's Reader or Tom Brown Goes to Eton or whatever they read back in those days. You can see them, but you're not supposed to consider their existence as on the same plane as your own.
Anyway, I wouldn't say that Apu was a particularly malicious stereotype--immigrant owners of minimarts exist, and they have accents, and he was never depicted as meaner or dumber than any of the other residents of Springfield or as freakish or disgusting for not being white and Christian. (If anyone was consistently portrayed as congenitally stupid, lazy, and worthless, it was Officer Wiggum, but if somebody was like "Officer Wiggum truly harmed me, Blue Lives Matter" I would have to laugh in their face.) He was never aspirational, though, and that makes him seem somehow dirtier than he really was. RIP Apu Nahasapeemapetilon.
posted by kingdead at 8:38 AM on April 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
There's been a real change over the past 30 years--and yeah, it's been more than 30 years of The Simpsons--that depicting anyone under a certain level of wealth and education is depressing at best and harmful at worst. You see the change in a lot of long-running media--like if you look at old Sesame Street, there are a lot of adults (or puppets of adults) around, modeling various working-class or middle-class jobs that the child is supposed to take an interest in. That fell away and now you have the modern version where there are no adults except celebrities. It's a street, but there aren't any people on it that work, because that's not something that is considered pleasant or helpful to think about.
It really struck me when the controversy about editing Dahl sprung up. There's a section of The Witches where Dahl starts creeping out the reader by pointing out how witches are hiding everywhere. They could be secretaries or even the woman at the till at the grocery store! That section was edited to something like "they could even be scientists or directors of companies!" Now that everyone has their own personal computer, I'm not sure if there are still really secretaries, but the elimination of the grocery store worker struck me. There are still cashiers around but the young reader isn't to think about that type of woman--just like you don't want your kid calling someone fat or stupid, she's not something you'd want poisoning your developing mind. Like a Victorian child presumably passed by "ladies of the night," but that wasn't something to be put in Grady's Reader or Tom Brown Goes to Eton or whatever they read back in those days. You can see them, but you're not supposed to consider their existence as on the same plane as your own.
Anyway, I wouldn't say that Apu was a particularly malicious stereotype--immigrant owners of minimarts exist, and they have accents, and he was never depicted as meaner or dumber than any of the other residents of Springfield or as freakish or disgusting for not being white and Christian. (If anyone was consistently portrayed as congenitally stupid, lazy, and worthless, it was Officer Wiggum, but if somebody was like "Officer Wiggum truly harmed me, Blue Lives Matter" I would have to laugh in their face.) He was never aspirational, though, and that makes him seem somehow dirtier than he really was. RIP Apu Nahasapeemapetilon.
posted by kingdead at 8:38 AM on April 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
There's been a real change over the past 30 years--and yeah, it's been more than 30 years of The Simpsons--that depicting anyone under a certain level of wealth and education is depressing at best and harmful at worst. … You can see them, but you're not supposed to consider their existence as on the same plane as your own.I can buy that there’s been a shift, but I wouldn’t overstate it. Look at recent, successful shows about working-class people like Superstore (2015–2021), Kim’s Convenience (2016–2021), and Bob’s Burgers (2011–present). Awkwafina’s character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Shang-Chi, 2021) has an immigrant shopkeeper family, and her own job is parking valet. It’s hard to square all this with the idea that depicting people in “unskilled” jobs is now considered anathema or demeaning.
posted by mbrubeck at 9:05 AM on April 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
That was a great conversation and I'm glad I got to listen to it instead of just read the transcript. Both Azaria and Kondabolu are great actors and voices and hearing the timing of them interact conveyed a lot of subtlety.
The organization mentioned by Gene Demby (the host) caught my attention:
The organization mentioned by Gene Demby (the host) caught my attention:
He got put on to this organization called the Soul Focused Group, and they hold these seminars about race and power and privilege, and they have these very intense conversations. He said it was a space where he could go and ask questions and say the wrong or underconsidered thing. And he told me it felt like a safe space for him to be a beginner on race stuff and to get better. And he said he wouldn't have gotten there were it not for Hari and his documentary.posted by Nelson at 11:19 AM on April 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
That section was edited to something like "they could even be scientists or directors of companies!" Now that everyone has their own personal computer, I'm not sure if there are still really secretaries
They're called administrative assistants (or 'professionals') now. The ironies of which are better left to another thread.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:10 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
They're called administrative assistants (or 'professionals') now. The ironies of which are better left to another thread.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:10 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
As an admin, I prefer "buttmonkey" for its realness and accuracy.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:28 PM on April 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:28 PM on April 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
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