Checked Out
April 28, 2023 9:12 AM Subscribe
Ed Zitron goes on a lovely, if lengthy, rant about popularity, Twitter Blue and social media in general, before dropping a plug for Bluesky Social, a new social media network that was founded by Twitter in 2019 as an open-source, decentralized spinoff. It now seems to be getting much more media attention .
Because Jack Dorsey seems to have learned so much in the past ~15 years, I guess? I'm skeptical about 'composable moderation' without a good idea what the baseline, corporate-policy hard limits will be.
Also, I will burn down the internet, myself, server by server, if 'skeeting' catches on.
posted by sagc at 9:30 AM on April 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Also, I will burn down the internet, myself, server by server, if 'skeeting' catches on.
posted by sagc at 9:30 AM on April 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
My initial reaction was to start begging for an invite, but after thinking about it I might be better off without.
posted by slogger at 9:30 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by slogger at 9:30 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Jack Dorsey learned so much from Twitter he made a social media site with no block button.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 9:33 AM on April 28, 2023 [38 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 9:33 AM on April 28, 2023 [38 favorites]
The people on Twitter who I'd most care about following on another platform all seem excited about Bluesky, in a way they weren't about any of the other offerings. It would be extremely stupid if Bluesky was the site that won out here, but in a funny way? idk. "Skeeting" is such a dumb term that I find myself rooting for it out of instinct.
Anyway, Ed's newsletter has been on fire lately, it's absolutely worth subscribing to.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 9:34 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anyway, Ed's newsletter has been on fire lately, it's absolutely worth subscribing to.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 9:34 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
They should capitalize the S because I keep pronouncing it "Blueskee" in my head.
posted by HumanComplex at 9:38 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by HumanComplex at 9:38 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
If Bluesky takes off I'll just have to hope you all keep posting the interesting parts here on Metafilter, as you have with twitter.
Thanks!
-- A happy free rider.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 9:38 AM on April 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Thanks!
-- A happy free rider.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 9:38 AM on April 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
The terms of service are terrible, closer to the for-profit sites than any open/commons-based system. (Such as most Mastodon server's terms of service.)
posted by johnabbe at 9:42 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by johnabbe at 9:42 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have not heard great things about what it will be tracking (Facebook-esque tendrils into all your online activity), the ToS as noted above are bad/worse than others, and a lack of means of blocking people?
Yikes.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:46 AM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yikes.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:46 AM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
They should capitalize the S because I keep pronouncing it "Blueskee" in my head.
"Blueskee" sounds like a portmanteau of "Blues" and "Belushi" and I'm not sure that anyone would want to have that cultural/historical baggage on a social media site that they'd have to depend on in any way.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:47 AM on April 28, 2023
"Blueskee" sounds like a portmanteau of "Blues" and "Belushi" and I'm not sure that anyone would want to have that cultural/historical baggage on a social media site that they'd have to depend on in any way.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:47 AM on April 28, 2023
Fuck Jack Dorsey and everything he pollutes with his inane bullshit. Fuck corporate media. Fuck putting my content on a site that will use it to sell ads that it will also show me. Fuck to the no. There are alternatives. Use them.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:50 AM on April 28, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:50 AM on April 28, 2023 [25 favorites]
Crucially, it seems their product strategy appears to be “invite tech people and shitposters from Twitter and see what they do,” and it seems to be working. Growth stats aside, Bluesky feels like what’s good at Twitter - which, as Musk has repeatedly failed to see, is a certain community of funny/interesting/enjoyable posts that are worth interacting with
Heh. His ideas about whats good about Twitter don't coincide with mine. No surprise as he appears to be a PR consultant who loves shitposts. Twitter could not be everything to everyone and perhaps thats a good thing after all.
posted by vacapinta at 9:55 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Heh. His ideas about whats good about Twitter don't coincide with mine. No surprise as he appears to be a PR consultant who loves shitposts. Twitter could not be everything to everyone and perhaps thats a good thing after all.
posted by vacapinta at 9:55 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I made a rule for myself-- NO NEW SOCIAL MEDIA-- and it's working well for me. I can't speak highly enough about letting sites die naturally, then moving on to other pursuits. I read so many more books now.
posted by blnkfrnk at 9:55 AM on April 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by blnkfrnk at 9:55 AM on April 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
I got an early invite to Bluesky and have used it a bit. It's basically an underpopulated Twitter with no block function. So, kind of a shit-show. Meanwhile, Mastodon seems to be full of smug hall-monitors who do nothing but scold people for using it "wrong." I miss the old hole.
posted by riotnrrd at 9:56 AM on April 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by riotnrrd at 9:56 AM on April 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
There is nothing quite like Twitter for staying current with my local politics and connecting with like-minded people in my area. I am curious about BlueSky but the Android app has a bug where it closes the keyboard when you try to sign up for the waitlist. So I'm not optimistic. I found Mastodon way too cumbersome, Post too pretentious.
But if there's no block button on BlueSky, then it is a hard no from me, because that's what keeps my feed sane.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:57 AM on April 28, 2023
But if there's no block button on BlueSky, then it is a hard no from me, because that's what keeps my feed sane.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:57 AM on April 28, 2023
Jack Dorsey: Twitter Nazis Are Here to Stay
Wait, sorry, that was the last one, the one that clamped down a bit on Nazis when Dorsey stepped back but opened up to them when it was sold to his pal Elon. Also it partially owns this new one.
posted by Artw at 9:58 AM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wait, sorry, that was the last one, the one that clamped down a bit on Nazis when Dorsey stepped back but opened up to them when it was sold to his pal Elon. Also it partially owns this new one.
posted by Artw at 9:58 AM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
On the plus side I hear people are taunting Nate Silver with fake invites and that’s funny as hell.
posted by Artw at 10:00 AM on April 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:00 AM on April 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
[In other, related news] This American Life just had an interesting interview with the former head of Trust & Safety- Going Down with the Censorships
posted by Glinn at 10:00 AM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Glinn at 10:00 AM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m pretty dubious about this, but have to admit that it might be the most hilarious outcome if after Elon bought Twitter from jack, everyone on Twitter just moved over to jack’s new site, Twitter 2: electric blueskaloo.
posted by rodlymight at 10:01 AM on April 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by rodlymight at 10:01 AM on April 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
“… Elon is the singular solution I trust. I trust his mission to extend the light of consciousness.” - Jack Dorsey.
Your periodic reminder: that’s a thing he actually said.
posted by mhoye at 10:02 AM on April 28, 2023 [24 favorites]
Your periodic reminder: that’s a thing he actually said.
posted by mhoye at 10:02 AM on April 28, 2023 [24 favorites]
Yes, let's replace a centralised site run by a gross person which leeches your info for profit with a centralised site run by a gross person who leeches your info for profit. This time it will be different.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 10:03 AM on April 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 10:03 AM on April 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
Turns out I had an invite sitting in my inbox but too slow, expired. Anyway, derail, who'd'u like on the 'don?
posted by sammyo at 10:19 AM on April 28, 2023
posted by sammyo at 10:19 AM on April 28, 2023
Matt Yglesias is also apparently getting heavily bullied so that’s a point in favour of the no moderation approach.
On the minus side the site has Matt Yglesias.
posted by Artw at 10:26 AM on April 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
On the minus side the site has Matt Yglesias.
posted by Artw at 10:26 AM on April 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
I would very much like an invite to Bluesky.
I like Twitter but Musk has completely ruined it for everyone. I'm not just talking about "Nazis", none of whom I see in my timeline because I have curated it as such, but now I don't even see my friends in my timeline and I get a hell of a lot more spam. I know Jack is maybe not much better than Elon, but I don't recall him ever demanding that Twitter make him the most popular person on Twitter at the expense of everything else.
posted by bondcliff at 10:26 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I like Twitter but Musk has completely ruined it for everyone. I'm not just talking about "Nazis", none of whom I see in my timeline because I have curated it as such, but now I don't even see my friends in my timeline and I get a hell of a lot more spam. I know Jack is maybe not much better than Elon, but I don't recall him ever demanding that Twitter make him the most popular person on Twitter at the expense of everything else.
posted by bondcliff at 10:26 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mastodon seems to be full of smug hall-monitors who do nothing but scold people for using it "wrong."
You're apparently on a different "Mastodon" than I am.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:33 AM on April 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
You're apparently on a different "Mastodon" than I am.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:33 AM on April 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
Meanwhile, Mastodon seems to be full of smug hall-monitors who do nothing but scold people for using it "wrong."
Maybe I'm not understanding your meaning, but Mastodon doesn't have to be like that. On Mastodon there is no algorithm. Everything you see on your timeline is from someone you followed. If someone you follow displeases you, you can unfollow them. If someone scolds you in a reply, you can block them.
And it doesn't have to be any more cumbersome than adding your server name to your handle. You do have more options for browsing, and that might confuse some people. You have your personal timeline, your local timeline (people on your server), and the "federated" timeline (people followed by people on your server). But those can be ignored if you want.
I'm not sure that Mastodon as it stands is for everyone, but it's so nice to find a generally friendly place (specifically, the unofficial Metafilter server, mefi.social) that's not owned by a billionaire or large corporation. It feels a lot more like the old web, which I've greatly missed lately. It has some of the bad parts (a slightly greater technical barrier) but also doesn't have many of the issues the old web had regarding cultural and gender exclusion.
When I see Bluesky I see more of the same. It might seem better now, but it's still expected to eventually turn a profit, it's still owned by someone who could turn into Elon Musk at any moment, and in fact it's owned by someone who is friends with Musk.
Even if Bluesky joins the rest of the Fediverse, it won't last, just as how Facebook and Twitter turned off RSS, just as how Google killed Reader and disabled Jabber support in Talk. It's just another way to construct a walled garden. Outside connections are kept only for as long as they're useful, as soon as they judge they're unneeded they'll turn them off.
posted by JHarris at 10:36 AM on April 28, 2023 [34 favorites]
Maybe I'm not understanding your meaning, but Mastodon doesn't have to be like that. On Mastodon there is no algorithm. Everything you see on your timeline is from someone you followed. If someone you follow displeases you, you can unfollow them. If someone scolds you in a reply, you can block them.
And it doesn't have to be any more cumbersome than adding your server name to your handle. You do have more options for browsing, and that might confuse some people. You have your personal timeline, your local timeline (people on your server), and the "federated" timeline (people followed by people on your server). But those can be ignored if you want.
I'm not sure that Mastodon as it stands is for everyone, but it's so nice to find a generally friendly place (specifically, the unofficial Metafilter server, mefi.social) that's not owned by a billionaire or large corporation. It feels a lot more like the old web, which I've greatly missed lately. It has some of the bad parts (a slightly greater technical barrier) but also doesn't have many of the issues the old web had regarding cultural and gender exclusion.
When I see Bluesky I see more of the same. It might seem better now, but it's still expected to eventually turn a profit, it's still owned by someone who could turn into Elon Musk at any moment, and in fact it's owned by someone who is friends with Musk.
Even if Bluesky joins the rest of the Fediverse, it won't last, just as how Facebook and Twitter turned off RSS, just as how Google killed Reader and disabled Jabber support in Talk. It's just another way to construct a walled garden. Outside connections are kept only for as long as they're useful, as soon as they judge they're unneeded they'll turn them off.
posted by JHarris at 10:36 AM on April 28, 2023 [34 favorites]
Also, I will burn down the internet, myself, server by server, if 'skeeting' catches on.
Not only is it already extremely popular, it is also very important for prostate health. Aww skeet skeet!
(I have to believe choosing that was intentional)
posted by Vulgar Euphemism at 10:39 AM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Not only is it already extremely popular, it is also very important for prostate health. Aww skeet skeet!
(I have to believe choosing that was intentional)
posted by Vulgar Euphemism at 10:39 AM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Mastodon seems to be full of smug hall-monitors who do nothing but scold people for using it "wrong."
Don't say that out loud!
posted by grouse at 10:40 AM on April 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Don't say that out loud!
posted by grouse at 10:40 AM on April 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
To be honest, I don’t think I’ll ever use Bluesky, but I want an invite because I want to see what it looks like, sort of like clicking on a zillow link that tells me I won’t believe what I see in the basement.
Either I’ll forget about it within minutes, or what I see will haunt me to the end of my days.
posted by Kattullus at 10:45 AM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Either I’ll forget about it within minutes, or what I see will haunt me to the end of my days.
posted by Kattullus at 10:45 AM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I usually read and agree with Zitron's essays/rants, but I'm gonna have to tack a virtual [citation needed] on the "Mastodon has failed" bit, as it depends way too much on someone's definition of "success".
posted by The Lurkers Support Me in Email at 10:48 AM on April 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by The Lurkers Support Me in Email at 10:48 AM on April 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
> Everything you see on your timeline is from someone you followed. If someone you follow displeases you, you can unfollow them. If someone scolds you in a reply, you can block them.
Yes, I know this. I've been using Mastodon since well before the Twitter sale. It's just tiresome. I've had a follower of someone I follow tell me I'm using Mastodon wrong because I didn't put content warnings on my photo of my dog. It is better than having Nazis in my timeline, though, I'll give you that much.
posted by riotnrrd at 10:49 AM on April 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
Yes, I know this. I've been using Mastodon since well before the Twitter sale. It's just tiresome. I've had a follower of someone I follow tell me I'm using Mastodon wrong because I didn't put content warnings on my photo of my dog. It is better than having Nazis in my timeline, though, I'll give you that much.
posted by riotnrrd at 10:49 AM on April 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
Maybe I'm not understanding your meaning, but Mastodon doesn't have to be like that. On Mastodon there is no algorithm. Everything you see on your timeline is from someone you followed. If someone you follow displeases you, you can unfollow them. If someone scolds you in a reply, you can block them.
I mean, it doesn't *have* to, but in practice there's still norms & cultural patterns. If a significant number of people find themselves excluded by Mastodon, "NotAllServers" isn't going to bring them back.
If people are worried about BlueSky... make sure that your alternative is better. Not better for you, better for them. No arguing about "But people shouldn't want what they want" or "People should feel differently & prioritize the things I see as important".
You want social media off centralized VC-funded crypto-adjacent sites? Be the choice people want to pick when they don't care about any of that. I have no interest in jumping onto BlueSky myself, but I can't stand ineffectual "but they're caring about the *wrong things*" reactions. Sure! You've got the ideal prefigurative network model. All those people with issues don't know what they're talking about. If they would just care about things in the right way, & be motivated to invest energy in the right things...
Meanwhile, here's the new upstart. It has issues. Lots of them. But if people are picking the potential of that over what you've got... is what you have actually better?
posted by CrystalDave at 10:50 AM on April 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mean, it doesn't *have* to, but in practice there's still norms & cultural patterns. If a significant number of people find themselves excluded by Mastodon, "NotAllServers" isn't going to bring them back.
If people are worried about BlueSky... make sure that your alternative is better. Not better for you, better for them. No arguing about "But people shouldn't want what they want" or "People should feel differently & prioritize the things I see as important".
You want social media off centralized VC-funded crypto-adjacent sites? Be the choice people want to pick when they don't care about any of that. I have no interest in jumping onto BlueSky myself, but I can't stand ineffectual "but they're caring about the *wrong things*" reactions. Sure! You've got the ideal prefigurative network model. All those people with issues don't know what they're talking about. If they would just care about things in the right way, & be motivated to invest energy in the right things...
Meanwhile, here's the new upstart. It has issues. Lots of them. But if people are picking the potential of that over what you've got... is what you have actually better?
posted by CrystalDave at 10:50 AM on April 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
They had to choose something better than 'tooting' (Mastodon), and somehow failed.
posted by meowzilla at 10:50 AM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 10:50 AM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Anyway, derail, who'd'u like on the 'don?
There's a guy named John Overholt who's a pretty good follow.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:57 AM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's a guy named John Overholt who's a pretty good follow.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:57 AM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’ve resisted the pull of Mastodon, I think I can survive without Bluesky. If anything, Twitter has demonstrated how remarkably unnecessary it is in my life.
As always, YMMV.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 10:58 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
As always, YMMV.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 10:58 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was trying to find this 'federated timeline' in Mastodon being discussed, and it looks like it, and the local timeline, are less emphasized:
Official apps now available for iOS and Android:
posted by meowzilla at 11:05 AM on April 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Official apps now available for iOS and Android:
The federated timeline has too low of a signal vs. noise ratio to be effective as a discovery tool. Due to the way Mastodon pulls down content to provide more detailed profiles and conversations, the federated timeline becomes unmanageable on servers of all sizes, even single-user ones. Unsurprisingly, most content is not actually worth looking at, and in some cases, actively undesirable.Discovery is clearly a major problem for Mastodon.
[...] Instead, we offer a new explore tab that highlights, among other things, currently popular posts. It is a much more efficient way to find interesting content and follow users on Mastodon without scrolling through many low-quality posts and unfamiliar languages. All data that Mastodon uses for calculating rankings is locally sourced so it’s heavily skewed towards things that are popular on your server, and everything goes through your server’s moderators before appearing on the explore tab, making it much less prone to abuse.
posted by meowzilla at 11:05 AM on April 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ryan Broderick at Garbage Day:
posted by General Malaise at 11:19 AM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
A few hours later, after dril and a bunch of other high-profile Twitter users like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez had moved over to Bluesky, blogger Matthew Yglesias announced he had joined, as well. And then a bunch of users threatened to kill him with hammers until he announced he was taking a break from the app. User have not threatened to beat Jake Tapper to death, for what it’s worth. In other words, yesterday was a normal day on Twitter in 2019. Or, maybe, more accurately, a normal day on Twitter in 2012.(And make sure to stick around for the Elon Torment Nexus)
posted by General Malaise at 11:19 AM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is the first toot in a Mastodon thread that I saw today:
All of the posts on Mastodon about how the Blue Sky team was silly for releasing a social media network in 2023 without blocking and moderation, even in private beta, and that the Blue Sky team should have known what would happen...posted by aniola at 11:22 AM on April 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
...are being written on Mastodon: a social media platform that in 2023, still doesn't take into account that Black users face a disproportionate amount of very specific types of abuse, and is missing key features that would make the Black population safer. 🙂🙃
I’m confused by that - it seems a bit hairy without adding specificity , since Mastodon very much does have blocking and reporting features.
posted by Artw at 11:26 AM on April 28, 2023
posted by Artw at 11:26 AM on April 28, 2023
After watching one social media network started by Jack Dorsey implode, I'm not inclined to invest any time in another social media network started by Jack Dorsey.
posted by abucci at 11:33 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by abucci at 11:33 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's a whole thread, I just posted the first sentence.
posted by aniola at 11:33 AM on April 28, 2023
posted by aniola at 11:33 AM on April 28, 2023
From the thread not a lot seems to be about features, more administration choices on instances.
posted by Artw at 11:41 AM on April 28, 2023
posted by Artw at 11:41 AM on April 28, 2023
I don't really understand where features end and administrative choices begin, but I hadn't seen race brought up yet, and the thread I shared talks about "why more Black folk are on BlueSky" which I thought y'all might find interesting.
posted by aniola at 11:58 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by aniola at 11:58 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Getting manual moderation on Mastodon to work like it did on Twitter seems to be difficult, given that we know now that Twitter had a dozen opaque neural nets doing the heavy lifting of ranking and filtering. And also because there are vastly different opinions on what should and should not be blocked on Mastodon, e.g. journalism.
It is a shame that there is not a better canonical "which server to pick" guide, and too much FUD about how it doesn't matter, because then people could easily pick servers that implement their preferred moderation preferences for their communities.
One think I worry about is that running servers takes patience, money, and sweat, and admins are uncompensated and only human.
posted by credulous at 12:04 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is a shame that there is not a better canonical "which server to pick" guide, and too much FUD about how it doesn't matter, because then people could easily pick servers that implement their preferred moderation preferences for their communities.
One think I worry about is that running servers takes patience, money, and sweat, and admins are uncompensated and only human.
posted by credulous at 12:04 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm really happy, for both nerdy and cultural reasons, that Mastodon exists, and I'm also happy that it's forming a sizable niche culture of its own, and I totally get why The Thing That Mastodon Is speaks so loudly to so many MeFites.
And at the same time, the people who are critical and dismissive of Mastodon have reasons for being so. I didn't last longer than a week on Mastodon (and that's despite missing all the connections with MeFites that I was forming there!), so I get where its haters are coming from. And the ways in which criticisms of Mastodon get dismissed—and even, to some extent, the ways in which critiques of BlueSky are starting to form—feel extremely in keeping with Mastodon as a culture and as a vibe, for better or for worse.
The whole "you can have whatever culture you want to on Mastodon" jawn is only partly true, by the way. The technical machinations of a platform fundamentally influence the kinds of people who use it, and Mastodon's design basically makes it very appealing for certain kinds of people and very unappealing for others, which in turn leads to certain tendencies gaining momentum and others struggling with inertia. And the question of "what platform will win out" basically relies on the assumption that what's needed is a neutral platform, one that's universal enough that governments will be able to rely on it as a form of broadcast, media people will be able to use it as part of their hype circles, etc. Now, you don't need to want every platform to be "universal," and I certainly like the Internet better when it's decentralized, but I think that there's a reason why centralized platforms are so damn appealing, I don't think we're going to see the end of that appeal any time soon, and I think that the willful insistence that actually platforms don't need to be universal is exactly how the people whose ethics and cultural mores I most identify with cede victories to the corporatist dickbags who, if I had to bet, I'd bet on winding up with the biggest platform yet again.
I think it's possible to create a less corporatist universal Twitteresque, but nobody's working on one, and it's delusional to think that either (1) Mastodon's going to be that universal platform or that (2) we're done, as a culture, with centralized platforms. Hence the interest in BlueSky from people who, contrary to what you might think, recognize that Jack is a shitty dude and that BlueSky, if it succeeds, will immediately begin selling its own users out, and still have more interest in BlueSky than in anything else. (I'm not completely sold on BlueSky yet, but I will say that the momentum and enthusiasm I'm seeing for it is the first time I'm seeing anything that strikes me as significant—and that's despite having a lot of close personal friends who are very pro-Mastodon.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 12:14 PM on April 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
And at the same time, the people who are critical and dismissive of Mastodon have reasons for being so. I didn't last longer than a week on Mastodon (and that's despite missing all the connections with MeFites that I was forming there!), so I get where its haters are coming from. And the ways in which criticisms of Mastodon get dismissed—and even, to some extent, the ways in which critiques of BlueSky are starting to form—feel extremely in keeping with Mastodon as a culture and as a vibe, for better or for worse.
The whole "you can have whatever culture you want to on Mastodon" jawn is only partly true, by the way. The technical machinations of a platform fundamentally influence the kinds of people who use it, and Mastodon's design basically makes it very appealing for certain kinds of people and very unappealing for others, which in turn leads to certain tendencies gaining momentum and others struggling with inertia. And the question of "what platform will win out" basically relies on the assumption that what's needed is a neutral platform, one that's universal enough that governments will be able to rely on it as a form of broadcast, media people will be able to use it as part of their hype circles, etc. Now, you don't need to want every platform to be "universal," and I certainly like the Internet better when it's decentralized, but I think that there's a reason why centralized platforms are so damn appealing, I don't think we're going to see the end of that appeal any time soon, and I think that the willful insistence that actually platforms don't need to be universal is exactly how the people whose ethics and cultural mores I most identify with cede victories to the corporatist dickbags who, if I had to bet, I'd bet on winding up with the biggest platform yet again.
I think it's possible to create a less corporatist universal Twitteresque, but nobody's working on one, and it's delusional to think that either (1) Mastodon's going to be that universal platform or that (2) we're done, as a culture, with centralized platforms. Hence the interest in BlueSky from people who, contrary to what you might think, recognize that Jack is a shitty dude and that BlueSky, if it succeeds, will immediately begin selling its own users out, and still have more interest in BlueSky than in anything else. (I'm not completely sold on BlueSky yet, but I will say that the momentum and enthusiasm I'm seeing for it is the first time I'm seeing anything that strikes me as significant—and that's despite having a lot of close personal friends who are very pro-Mastodon.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 12:14 PM on April 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Yes, I know this. I've been using Mastodon since well before the Twitter sale. It's just tiresome. I've had a follower of someone I follow tell me I'm using Mastodon wrong because I didn't put content warnings on my photo of my dog. It is better than having Nazis in my timeline, though, I'll give you that much.
I don't have any info on context there, but I concede that's a factor. In some circles you'll find people actually saying they not only block people who don't put alt text on images, but urge others to do that too. (I put alt text on my own images and am sympathetic to the needs of blind users, but it seems harsh to be that strident about it.)
And I also concede that Mastodon has a discoverability problem. Twitter's algorithm has serious issues (it'll penalize your posts' discoverability if your follow more people than follow you, for just one example) but the idea of a program that looks for things you might like to show you isn't necessarily a bad one. I just think it should be transparent and open source, and ideally selected by the user themselves.
posted by JHarris at 12:19 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't have any info on context there, but I concede that's a factor. In some circles you'll find people actually saying they not only block people who don't put alt text on images, but urge others to do that too. (I put alt text on my own images and am sympathetic to the needs of blind users, but it seems harsh to be that strident about it.)
And I also concede that Mastodon has a discoverability problem. Twitter's algorithm has serious issues (it'll penalize your posts' discoverability if your follow more people than follow you, for just one example) but the idea of a program that looks for things you might like to show you isn't necessarily a bad one. I just think it should be transparent and open source, and ideally selected by the user themselves.
posted by JHarris at 12:19 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
or that (2) we're done, as a culture, with centralized platforms
If we aren't now, maybe will be the next time the cycle comes around and all this has happened again. Even if the next big centralized platform isn't a cynical money squid, there's reason to believe that a single social media that can appeal to everyone isn't even possible.
If you don't think of Mastodon as a single thing but a lot of little things that talk to each other, and can each not only abide by different rules but run different software, I think it may have a shot.
posted by JHarris at 12:24 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
If we aren't now, maybe will be the next time the cycle comes around and all this has happened again. Even if the next big centralized platform isn't a cynical money squid, there's reason to believe that a single social media that can appeal to everyone isn't even possible.
If you don't think of Mastodon as a single thing but a lot of little things that talk to each other, and can each not only abide by different rules but run different software, I think it may have a shot.
posted by JHarris at 12:24 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tim Bray put together a post on Bluesky facts and opinions.
posted by credulous at 12:26 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by credulous at 12:26 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
a neutral platform, one that's universal enough that governments will be able to rely on it as a form of broadcast
SMS, lean on the app makers to allow some kind of "yes this is the government or transit authority" verification and let users filter on it, allow SMS-social media bridges.
That is, for actual health, safety, emergency announcements. Parks outreach joking about their local animals can be on whatever media is currently social.
posted by clew at 1:13 PM on April 28, 2023
SMS, lean on the app makers to allow some kind of "yes this is the government or transit authority" verification and let users filter on it, allow SMS-social media bridges.
That is, for actual health, safety, emergency announcements. Parks outreach joking about their local animals can be on whatever media is currently social.
posted by clew at 1:13 PM on April 28, 2023
it's delusional to think that either (1) Mastodon's going to be that universal platform or that (2) we're done, as a culture, with centralized platforms
nobody likes centralized social media platforms - unfortunately they lend themselves, by nature, to centralization!
posted by atoxyl at 1:20 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
nobody likes centralized social media platforms - unfortunately they lend themselves, by nature, to centralization!
posted by atoxyl at 1:20 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Really I think there is room for both - I still use several old school small-scale forums, after all, including this one, but, like, Twitter is nothing without the network effect and therefore neither is any Twitter replacement.
posted by atoxyl at 1:24 PM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 1:24 PM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oddly, Bluesky doesn't read as Blooskee for me.
posted by bluesky43 at 1:33 PM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 1:33 PM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Is this another one of those app-only social networks? If so, hard pass. If I can't use it in a desktop browser or send permalinks to people without an account I'm not even slightly interested. (Also, Mastodon's scratching the itch for me well enough that I haven't used twitter in any non-incidental way since roughly November.)
posted by Aleyn at 2:06 PM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Aleyn at 2:06 PM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
BlueSky’s TOS is extremely concerning .
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 2:11 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 2:11 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
- i’m rooting for bluesky for a couple of reasons:
- the ego damage that grimes’s big mistake will take if everyone leaves to join the ancient and mystic society of no-elons
- skeet skeet skeet
- but also — everyone take cover cause this take is coming in hot — in less petty, less “fuck that one guy in particular” terms i hope it fails hard, because i’m coming to realize that the problem with social media isn’t related to surfacing algorithms or centralization or decentralization or doctorovian enshittification or whatever, but instead to the problem that hot take!!! publics are bad. they’re a bad idea.
- leaning on a preëxisting universally shared commonality of experience and commonality of norms between the participants in the public — but i suspect that this type of organically shared commonality may be a purely fictional concept
- fabricating an imaginary shared commonality of experience, imposing and enforcing nominally shared norms, pretending those norms and experiences are natural, and then marginalizing anyone who doubts their universality (see: the mass media publics of the mid 1900s, see also zuckerberg’s late-2000s construction of a facebook public tailor-made for at-the-time young members of the professional class and everyone else had to try to awkwardly smoosh themselves into those bespoke-for-someone-else clothes)
- explicitly designating an élite group as the only valid participants in the public (see: classical democracy and the enlightenment res publica) and everyone else can go straight to hell.
the dream of the microblogging platforms is that somehow conversations that are exposed to the blinding light of publicity will be as rich as conversations in person, on private discords, or on bathroom stalls. this dream is nonsense: culture grows in the dark.
down with publics, up with conspiracies. down with publicity, up with obscurity. down with social media, up with group texts.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:30 PM on April 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Along similar lines: the Dark Forest Theory of the Internet. Which has taken on new currency with the prospect of generative AI crowding over all text-based digital commons.
posted by naju at 2:42 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by naju at 2:42 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Six Months In: Thoughts On The Current Post-Twitter Diaspora Options
posted by Artw at 3:12 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:12 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
BlueSky’s TOS is extremely concerning .
None of that looks worse than Twitter's TOS pre-Musk, unless I'm missing something?
posted by BungaDunga at 3:17 PM on April 28, 2023
None of that looks worse than Twitter's TOS pre-Musk, unless I'm missing something?
posted by BungaDunga at 3:17 PM on April 28, 2023
Mastodon just fails for me, at some basic level. It’s not the design, it’s more the culture of people, who often seem a little like Reddit users in being monomaniacally focused on one thing. I’ve curated a nice little group but it feels like hard work to find more people, and I’m not excited to reestablish myself on another corner of the internet.
posted by The River Ivel at 3:19 PM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 3:19 PM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, I will burn down the internet, myself, server by server, if 'skeeting' catches on.
Not only is it already extremely popular, it is also very important for prostate health. Aww skeet skeet!
(I have to believe choosing that was intentional)
posted by Vulgar Euphemism
say it with me, people
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:30 PM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Not only is it already extremely popular, it is also very important for prostate health. Aww skeet skeet!
(I have to believe choosing that was intentional)
posted by Vulgar Euphemism
say it with me, people
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:30 PM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
If we aren't now, maybe will be the next time the cycle comes around and all this has happened again. Even if the next big centralized platform isn't a cynical money squid, there's reason to believe that a single social media that can appeal to everyone isn't even possible.
One of the books I read for my undergraduate thesis had to do with the phenomenon of digital migration: specifically, gamers leaving MMORPGs as they shut down in search of other mediums to preserve their community.
A major takeaway from the book, whose name I've unfortunately forgotten, is that communities seek the most similar platform that's available to them when they migrate. They don't want to adjust themselves to their medium: they want a medium that's essentially invisible to them. Which is one reason why it's so hard to make a successful social network: the rules for what feel "invisible" are very tricky.
But another big lesson from the book was: we have always been like this. The relationship between communities and their mediums existed long before those mediums were digital, and there has always been a flux between "what's convenient and pleasing" and "what's actually going to stick around."
I'm talking about this from a biased position, in that I'm actively working on a platform for (hopefully!) helping people develop decentralized communities. And I love Mastodon in theory. I just don't want to use it. It doesn't fulfill the actual thing I get from Twitter. And it's not exactly that decentralization causes that, but I think that the way Mastodon went about decentralization prevents the kinds of community from forming that I want it to have. The kind of platform that enables what I'm looking for, on the other hand, is also the kind that's likely to be accessible enough, and broadly usable enough, that a lot of people will flock to it.
I don't see centralization going away so long as the technology to theoretically connect billions of users in the same place exists. There will always be "long tail" niches, and they will always be sought after by the people who have the most technical and cultural ability to thrive in those spaces. But while what centralization looks like will change—a social network that's designed to be wristwatch-friendly will be different than one that's phone-friendly—the fact of centralization itself will remain.
You see this in gaming too. MMORPGs never went truly everybody-does-this mainstream. But Among Us and Fortnite and Roblox are all absolute mammoths. If gaming platforms change, the next megahits will look and play differently from those titles, but there will be megahits, unless the Internet fundamentally ceases to exist the way it presently does.
I am all in favor of people's ability to duck out of the mainstream in favor of other platforms—naju's dark forest theory above sounds very pleasant, even if I'm not sure I believe it describes the future of digital spaces. And I have my own strong opinionated thoughts about what I'd like to see happen next. But what I learned during my participation in the early social network wars is that the people who claim that centralization is over, that decentralization is the next big thing, are usually just guaranteeing that the next big centralized thing will come from someone with a very different worldview. And there are reasons for that, which behoove the kinds of people who hate contemporary social media to understand—because if we don't understand how this happened or why it's likely to happen again, we'll be flat-footed by what happens next.
(Again: I'm extremely biased and opinionated here, so if what I'm saying is abrasive in any way, (1) my apologies and (2) please feel free to just ignore it.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 3:36 PM on April 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
One of the books I read for my undergraduate thesis had to do with the phenomenon of digital migration: specifically, gamers leaving MMORPGs as they shut down in search of other mediums to preserve their community.
A major takeaway from the book, whose name I've unfortunately forgotten, is that communities seek the most similar platform that's available to them when they migrate. They don't want to adjust themselves to their medium: they want a medium that's essentially invisible to them. Which is one reason why it's so hard to make a successful social network: the rules for what feel "invisible" are very tricky.
But another big lesson from the book was: we have always been like this. The relationship between communities and their mediums existed long before those mediums were digital, and there has always been a flux between "what's convenient and pleasing" and "what's actually going to stick around."
I'm talking about this from a biased position, in that I'm actively working on a platform for (hopefully!) helping people develop decentralized communities. And I love Mastodon in theory. I just don't want to use it. It doesn't fulfill the actual thing I get from Twitter. And it's not exactly that decentralization causes that, but I think that the way Mastodon went about decentralization prevents the kinds of community from forming that I want it to have. The kind of platform that enables what I'm looking for, on the other hand, is also the kind that's likely to be accessible enough, and broadly usable enough, that a lot of people will flock to it.
I don't see centralization going away so long as the technology to theoretically connect billions of users in the same place exists. There will always be "long tail" niches, and they will always be sought after by the people who have the most technical and cultural ability to thrive in those spaces. But while what centralization looks like will change—a social network that's designed to be wristwatch-friendly will be different than one that's phone-friendly—the fact of centralization itself will remain.
You see this in gaming too. MMORPGs never went truly everybody-does-this mainstream. But Among Us and Fortnite and Roblox are all absolute mammoths. If gaming platforms change, the next megahits will look and play differently from those titles, but there will be megahits, unless the Internet fundamentally ceases to exist the way it presently does.
I am all in favor of people's ability to duck out of the mainstream in favor of other platforms—naju's dark forest theory above sounds very pleasant, even if I'm not sure I believe it describes the future of digital spaces. And I have my own strong opinionated thoughts about what I'd like to see happen next. But what I learned during my participation in the early social network wars is that the people who claim that centralization is over, that decentralization is the next big thing, are usually just guaranteeing that the next big centralized thing will come from someone with a very different worldview. And there are reasons for that, which behoove the kinds of people who hate contemporary social media to understand—because if we don't understand how this happened or why it's likely to happen again, we'll be flat-footed by what happens next.
(Again: I'm extremely biased and opinionated here, so if what I'm saying is abrasive in any way, (1) my apologies and (2) please feel free to just ignore it.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 3:36 PM on April 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Someone I follow on Mastodon vanished for a bit and then reappeared with some toots about how he was sad because Bluesky was about to go down for maintenance and he was no longer getting those sweet dopamine hits from it, and it’s not like I’m gonna get on another social media ride with Jack at the helm anyway but that really made me never wanna fucking touch it. And the beginning of this article is just a list of all the ways Bluesky is making all interaction feel like being back in high school, and fuck that. I’m past fifty. I am not one of those people who peaked at being a popular kid in high school, and I do not want to play those games any more, no matter how much energy a new site puts into trying to wave lots of increasing numbers at me to get me addicted.
Mastodon does not attempt to tickle my addiction places at all. It’s great. I check it, there’s posts from the people I follow, and then I’m done and I have to go do something else instead of scrolling the Content Swamp forever.
posted by egypturnash at 4:22 PM on April 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Mastodon does not attempt to tickle my addiction places at all. It’s great. I check it, there’s posts from the people I follow, and then I’m done and I have to go do something else instead of scrolling the Content Swamp forever.
posted by egypturnash at 4:22 PM on April 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Reading about #bluesky, it's impressive to me how little Jack has learned.
As somebody who (briefly) worked at Twitter on anti-abuse, the place is a goldmine of lessons on fucked-up behavior. And the CEO comes out of the cryptocurrency space, which also has a rich history of garbage people run wild.
But instead of something that applies any of that, they have apparently produced the same sort of tired neoliberal marketplace-of-ideas horseshit product that Twitter was to start.
(a thread)
posted by Artw at 4:35 PM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
As somebody who (briefly) worked at Twitter on anti-abuse, the place is a goldmine of lessons on fucked-up behavior. And the CEO comes out of the cryptocurrency space, which also has a rich history of garbage people run wild.
But instead of something that applies any of that, they have apparently produced the same sort of tired neoliberal marketplace-of-ideas horseshit product that Twitter was to start.
(a thread)
posted by Artw at 4:35 PM on April 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Elon Torment Nexus
I am always ready to enjoy the Elon Torment Nexus. I will always be available for that, no matter what else happens in my life, from this moment forward.
posted by aramaic at 5:17 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am always ready to enjoy the Elon Torment Nexus. I will always be available for that, no matter what else happens in my life, from this moment forward.
posted by aramaic at 5:17 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I remain unconvinced that society needs a Twitter replacement. I think we would all be better off getting our faces out of our phones more.
posted by rhymedirective at 5:37 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rhymedirective at 5:37 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Per bsky.app themselves (second-hand copy-paste because, well, it's locked behind a wall)
To paraphrase mhoye, it sure seems like those folks have a history of not doing the reading before coming to class.
posted by introp at 8:36 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
@Bsky.app says:JFC. There's certainly no way to abuse that! Did they just ignore the whole last decade of social networking protocol development?
Important: Similar to your likes, your block list is public data!
While users of the Bluesky app can't easily find this list now, the data is public and enumerable at the protocol level. This means that third-party apps or clients can surface and display your list.
To paraphrase mhoye, it sure seems like those folks have a history of not doing the reading before coming to class.
posted by introp at 8:36 PM on April 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well I sure hope this fizzles and dies
posted by Bottlecap at 9:00 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 9:00 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Here is author Chuck Wendig's take on the subject, FWIW. I saw it a little while before seeing the FPP.
posted by bryon at 9:13 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bryon at 9:13 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
JFC. There's certainly no way to abuse that! Did they just ignore the whole last decade of social networking protocol development?
Wow.
Well, no surprise that Gamergate happened on this guys watch, I guess.
posted by Artw at 10:31 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wow.
Well, no surprise that Gamergate happened on this guys watch, I guess.
posted by Artw at 10:31 PM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Chuck Wendig is awful. Anyway, Mastodon is not really useful to me, Twitter was useful to me but is basically a burning clown car at this point, and part of me feels like this would be a good time to start going to the beach and painting sunsets.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:38 AM on April 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:38 AM on April 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Really I think there is room for both - I still use several old school small-scale forums, after all, including this one, but, like, Twitter is nothing without the network effect and therefore neither is any Twitter replacement.
Personally I wouldn't be sad if Bluesky got all of Twitter's shit posters, celebs, politicians, news outlets, and corporate accounts along with anyone whose primary goal is to follow and interact with them, all hastening Twitter's final demise, while Mastodon became the better platform for the community aspect some valued in Twitter. The noise of the former effectively made Twitter read-only for me as it was.
posted by Pryde at 6:56 AM on April 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Personally I wouldn't be sad if Bluesky got all of Twitter's shit posters, celebs, politicians, news outlets, and corporate accounts along with anyone whose primary goal is to follow and interact with them, all hastening Twitter's final demise, while Mastodon became the better platform for the community aspect some valued in Twitter. The noise of the former effectively made Twitter read-only for me as it was.
posted by Pryde at 6:56 AM on April 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Do they have the NFT people? They can have ALL of the NFT people.
posted by Artw at 7:08 AM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:08 AM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
BTW for news etc.. on Mastodon I highly suggest following the hashtag for your local area or any fields of interest. Worlds well both as a way of putting anything relating to that in your feed and as a way of figuring out to follow based on who posts on the subject.
posted by Artw at 7:10 AM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:10 AM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Bluesky doesn't seem like it'll be very useful for communicating or building community.
But it does seem good for posting*.
*jokes, smut, takes and dunking
posted by Reyturner at 8:48 AM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
But it does seem good for posting*.
*jokes, smut, takes and dunking
posted by Reyturner at 8:48 AM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
There are lots of people talking about this. For all that plenty of them are regular pepole genuinely excited about it, it feels like we're ignoring the marketing budget, strategy, and personal networking connections that Bluesky is almost certainly deploying to create and direct that buzz.
posted by trig at 11:05 AM on April 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by trig at 11:05 AM on April 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh my assumption is this is a MASSIVE deployment of VC influence and money to try and buy a self sustaining position. Everyone at Verge falling over each other ridiculously to big it up feels particularly inorganic and makes me wonder what investors they share.
posted by Artw at 11:11 AM on April 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:11 AM on April 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
What would be interesting is if this did succeed as nuTwitter, but things like Mastodon that got such a big boost remain more robust and provide an alternate discussion space. I could be ok with that.
It's definitely a weird time to be doing social media marketing right now. I'm only tentatively connected to that side but I feel for my coworkers constantly trying to just do basic promotion as Twitter implodes.
posted by emjaybee at 11:20 AM on April 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's definitely a weird time to be doing social media marketing right now. I'm only tentatively connected to that side but I feel for my coworkers constantly trying to just do basic promotion as Twitter implodes.
posted by emjaybee at 11:20 AM on April 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
so: fuck a public — all you’ll find in them is a diminishment of discourse at best, but more often a malevolent-oligarchic distortion of the whole field of potential discourse in total.
Not sure I agree with you here, but I dig your energy.
posted by slogger at 11:31 AM on April 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not sure I agree with you here, but I dig your energy.
posted by slogger at 11:31 AM on April 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
If there's VC dark money behind Matt Yglesias getting yelled at so much that they fast tracked the block function, that'd be pretty funny.
posted by Reyturner at 11:57 AM on April 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Reyturner at 11:57 AM on April 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I haven't seen Mike Masnick's Techdirt piece Six Months In: Thoughts On The Current Post-Twitter Diaspora Options mentioned here. He quotes Bluesky CEO Jay Graber about issues like blocking and moderation. She sounds like she and the Bluesky dev team have been giving it a lot of thought, and she has some reasonable-sounding explanations for why they haven't been implemented yet. She raises questions like How do you implement blocking in a federated environment without making people's block list public, which may be problematic for some.
Unlike many people I know, I've been quite happy with Mastodon, but there are features of Bluesky that sound appealing, and I can see why some would find it easier to use (once you get in). The terms of service may be a show-stopper, but Graber says that those are also under development and may change.
posted by Surely This at 2:00 PM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Unlike many people I know, I've been quite happy with Mastodon, but there are features of Bluesky that sound appealing, and I can see why some would find it easier to use (once you get in). The terms of service may be a show-stopper, but Graber says that those are also under development and may change.
posted by Surely This at 2:00 PM on April 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
She raises questions like How do you implement blocking in a federated environment without making people's block list public, which may be problematic for some.Again, it's like they didn't even do their reading. If only a pile of the smartest, most experience folks on the planet hadn't gotten together, worked this all out over years of brainstorming and arguments, based on over a decade-plus of real-world protocol deployments (GNU Social, Diaspora, et al), and come up with what appears to be the least-bad way of doing it. If only those people hadn't kept their work top-secret and hidden from the prying eyes of Jay Graber and team. Oh wait, it's a public standard. That people are still free to comment on, improve, and revise.
Yes, in any federated protocol there will always* be ways for creative bad actors to discover some of your block list. But just publishing the thing as a property is pants-on-head fucking foolish. At least make the attackers put in time, bandwidth, and CPU cycles to try to guess at the edges of the list, the part which impacts the actors they control.
Again: this doesn't seem so much like a properly-designed social network as it does a SV project to reinvent a system they only understand about half of. The other half is going to suffer.
posted by introp at 7:45 AM on April 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Which is all to say: you don't have to look very long at Bluesky's design, implementation, and press for very long before you realize they *know* all this and are deliberately building a system which serves a *very specific* idea about social networking that's going to be real good for the Jacks and Jays of the world and really abusive to most of the rest of folks.
posted by introp at 8:08 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by introp at 8:08 AM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's one line of the specification. I wouldn't call it *the* least-bad way, because ActivityPub servers disagree on whether to share blocks with other servers at all. I don't see any commentary about how to choose in the spec. Apparently the Mastodon software does federate blocks by default. It's good if you trust the other server, and bad if you don't.
There's various real-world bots that a malicious admin can run to scrape that information out of their own server. I guess they don't work if the target uses "Require follow request", and correctly shuns that entire server.
posted by sourcejedi at 8:22 AM on April 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's various real-world bots that a malicious admin can run to scrape that information out of their own server. I guess they don't work if the target uses "Require follow request", and correctly shuns that entire server.
posted by sourcejedi at 8:22 AM on April 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Rahaeli (who has several decades experience in social media) points out:
Bluesky has opened to public use without registering a DMCA designated agent, which is (for those who missed the explanation the last time) the literal most basic step a UGC site needs to take to mitigate its liability before openingand says:
the tl;dr: they think you can solve people problems with technology (and you absolutely cannot solve people problems with technology) and are consequently ignoring every single one of the people problems they should have already thought aboutposted by cheshyre at 1:12 PM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
time for social media to die off
posted by mrgrimm at 11:49 PM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mrgrimm at 11:49 PM on April 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I got an invite to Bluesky yesterday, and it feels like pre-2022 Twitter more than any of the other alternatives I've seen yet. I particularly like how it seems to be organized around giving people fleeing Twitter what we want instead of explaining why what we want is wrong.
posted by grouse at 5:42 AM on May 1, 2023
posted by grouse at 5:42 AM on May 1, 2023
A new onboarding experience on Mastodon
Some interesting updates here.
And our work continues. We’re always listening to the community and we’re excited to bring you some of the most requested features, such as quote posts, improved content and profile search, and groups. We’re also continuously working on improving content and profile discovery, onboarding, and of course our extensive set of moderation tools, as well as removing friction from decentralized features. Keep a lookout for these updates soon.
Quotetoots being a major bone of contention in some quarters it’ll be good to see that just settled. It’ll also by extension make the other bone of contention, content warnings, a lot more useful as it will be possible to take an un-CWed post and share it with a CW wrapper.
posted by Artw at 9:11 AM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some interesting updates here.
And our work continues. We’re always listening to the community and we’re excited to bring you some of the most requested features, such as quote posts, improved content and profile search, and groups. We’re also continuously working on improving content and profile discovery, onboarding, and of course our extensive set of moderation tools, as well as removing friction from decentralized features. Keep a lookout for these updates soon.
Quotetoots being a major bone of contention in some quarters it’ll be good to see that just settled. It’ll also by extension make the other bone of contention, content warnings, a lot more useful as it will be possible to take an un-CWed post and share it with a CW wrapper.
posted by Artw at 9:11 AM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
But it does seem good for posting*.
*jokes, smut, takes and dunking
Seriously if this is what it's good for that is the most interested in it I have been. What can I say, I still like my entertainment entertaining.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:04 AM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
*jokes, smut, takes and dunking
Seriously if this is what it's good for that is the most interested in it I have been. What can I say, I still like my entertainment entertaining.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:04 AM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Have to say I have NOT missed people amplifying some asshole to dunk on them, so I’m hoping that’s not what QuoteToots get used for.
posted by Artw at 11:15 AM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:15 AM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
It has to be said, nothing is quite as good an advertisement for Bluesky as having Twitter log you out for no reason and then refuse to let you log back in.
posted by Kattullus at 2:32 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Kattullus at 2:32 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I hope they still haven’t let Nate Silver in, it would be driving him absolutely apoplectic at this point.
posted by Artw at 3:18 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 3:18 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's a guy named John Overholt who's a pretty good follow.
Truth!
I got an invite to BlueSky yesterday and spent a while reading a LOT of stuff from the CEO about why they didn't have moderation yet, why it's okay for people to go to Mastodon if this wasn't okay with them (which is a MOOD) and how busy she was being the CEO of Bluesky with all the... stuff happening and how she thought moderation was going to, eventually, be just fine.
I've also heard a lot of stuff from Black users on Mastodon about how they feel things are not okay and I've heard things from Black users on Bluesky feeling that things feel better there. I'm aware there are a lot of different people with opinions on these things, those are just two that I seem to be hearing a lot.
I'm on a small librarian/archivist/galleries/museums Mastodon instance and it's sort of calm and quiet without the scoldy sorts that I do see elsewhere. I still get scolded occasionally. I follow a lot of people on MeFi.social as well. I'm not on social media that much but I still miss the Twitter grabass stuff (just people making funny jokes and mixing it up in the replies) and I'll be interested to see if either place winds up having any of that feel to it.
posted by jessamyn at 6:33 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Truth!
I got an invite to BlueSky yesterday and spent a while reading a LOT of stuff from the CEO about why they didn't have moderation yet, why it's okay for people to go to Mastodon if this wasn't okay with them (which is a MOOD) and how busy she was being the CEO of Bluesky with all the... stuff happening and how she thought moderation was going to, eventually, be just fine.
I've also heard a lot of stuff from Black users on Mastodon about how they feel things are not okay and I've heard things from Black users on Bluesky feeling that things feel better there. I'm aware there are a lot of different people with opinions on these things, those are just two that I seem to be hearing a lot.
I'm on a small librarian/archivist/galleries/museums Mastodon instance and it's sort of calm and quiet without the scoldy sorts that I do see elsewhere. I still get scolded occasionally. I follow a lot of people on MeFi.social as well. I'm not on social media that much but I still miss the Twitter grabass stuff (just people making funny jokes and mixing it up in the replies) and I'll be interested to see if either place winds up having any of that feel to it.
posted by jessamyn at 6:33 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
@dprk_ebooks@social.coop:
Mastodon plot twist:
* Everyone onboards with mastodon.social by default but after 3 months you must migrate to a PVP server
* Toots are now searchable but only the bad ones where you got ratio'd
* You can now get ratio'd
posted by Artw at 11:11 PM on May 1, 2023
Mastodon plot twist:
* Everyone onboards with mastodon.social by default but after 3 months you must migrate to a PVP server
* Toots are now searchable but only the bad ones where you got ratio'd
* You can now get ratio'd
posted by Artw at 11:11 PM on May 1, 2023
@chadloder:
Some early observations about Bluesky:
• People are having fun. People clearly missed using Twitter to shitpost.
• There are no norms yet. Nobody uses content warnings, nor is there a built-in feature for content warnings.
• Nobody uses alt text. Nobody gets scolded for not using alt text. Right now, Bluesky seems like a nightmare for blind and low-vision people.
• It's eery to see known abusers on Bluesky who I've had blocked for years, without the ability to block them.
• It's only a matter of days before violent right-wing accounts like A*dy Ng* show up on Bluesky. They WILL be allowed on, and they WILL build large followings, and the content moderation and privacy tools of Bluesky are not yet up to the task.
posted by Artw at 9:53 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Some early observations about Bluesky:
• People are having fun. People clearly missed using Twitter to shitpost.
• There are no norms yet. Nobody uses content warnings, nor is there a built-in feature for content warnings.
• Nobody uses alt text. Nobody gets scolded for not using alt text. Right now, Bluesky seems like a nightmare for blind and low-vision people.
• It's eery to see known abusers on Bluesky who I've had blocked for years, without the ability to block them.
• It's only a matter of days before violent right-wing accounts like A*dy Ng* show up on Bluesky. They WILL be allowed on, and they WILL build large followings, and the content moderation and privacy tools of Bluesky are not yet up to the task.
posted by Artw at 9:53 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
It turns out you can simply serve a file from a domain to use it as your bsky handle.
So this guy is now S3. All of S3.
posted by Artw at 8:44 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
So this guy is now S3. All of S3.
posted by Artw at 8:44 PM on May 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's hilarious. Although reading the replies to that toot definitely give me the following vibe:
Mastodon users: I feel bad for you.
Bluesky users: I don't think about you at all.
posted by grouse at 9:37 AM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mastodon users: I feel bad for you.
Bluesky users: I don't think about you at all.
posted by grouse at 9:37 AM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
only people with parasocial relationship problems expects celebrities to think about them.
posted by Artw at 10:11 AM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 10:11 AM on May 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Seriously if this is what it's good for that is the most interested in it I have been. What can I say, I still like my entertainment entertaining.
Same here. Anyone have an invite?
posted by joedan at 6:46 PM on May 4, 2023
Same here. Anyone have an invite?
posted by joedan at 6:46 PM on May 4, 2023
@aiefel@mastodon.social
Elon is daily attacking journalists and news outlets on his Twitter while former Twitter boss Jack trundles support to anti-vaxxer conspiracy nutter RFK jr. on his walled-in Bluesky beta. Maybe the answer to how to build reliable online communities isn't billionaires.
(Screenshots attached)
posted by Artw at 7:28 PM on May 6, 2023
Elon is daily attacking journalists and news outlets on his Twitter while former Twitter boss Jack trundles support to anti-vaxxer conspiracy nutter RFK jr. on his walled-in Bluesky beta. Maybe the answer to how to build reliable online communities isn't billionaires.
(Screenshots attached)
posted by Artw at 7:28 PM on May 6, 2023
@ davidgerard l:
this is a whole thread by @sam on the AT protocol that bluesky uses
so, bluesky was set up to be a decentralised fediverse2 with beer and crypto shills
bluesky itself seems to have lucked into a vibrant and interesting twitter2, because it recruited important parts of black twitter and queer shitposter twitter
and it turns out it's never the tech. it's always the people.
anyway, the thread is a great rant on the tech itself. it's the sort of tech you'd expect cryptocurrency bozos to come up with. that being, of course, precisely what it is.
pfraze from bluesky answers here
i have previously noted that bluesky needs to pivot away from the dumb federation idea and *first* build a server that's worth duplicating. ban the nazis, that sort of thing.
posted by Artw at 5:49 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
this is a whole thread by @sam on the AT protocol that bluesky uses
so, bluesky was set up to be a decentralised fediverse2 with beer and crypto shills
bluesky itself seems to have lucked into a vibrant and interesting twitter2, because it recruited important parts of black twitter and queer shitposter twitter
and it turns out it's never the tech. it's always the people.
anyway, the thread is a great rant on the tech itself. it's the sort of tech you'd expect cryptocurrency bozos to come up with. that being, of course, precisely what it is.
pfraze from bluesky answers here
i have previously noted that bluesky needs to pivot away from the dumb federation idea and *first* build a server that's worth duplicating. ban the nazis, that sort of thing.
posted by Artw at 5:49 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
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posted by zymil at 9:24 AM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]