I tend to just see it, and I give it
May 1, 2023 11:45 AM Subscribe
I've never felt pressure to tip in a situation where I was confident the people I was tipping were making a significant fraction of a living wage.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:50 AM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 11:50 AM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
"I feel zero social pressure to ever hit anything except No Tip on those screens."
A favorite local bakery had upped the pressure last time I was there in a way I hadn't seen before. It's self-service, pay at the register, I never tipped before, but now they had a tip screen with words like "fair", "great", etc. next to each option. I don't think there was any way to skip the tip without telling them they sucked.
posted by bfields at 11:56 AM on May 1, 2023 [21 favorites]
A favorite local bakery had upped the pressure last time I was there in a way I hadn't seen before. It's self-service, pay at the register, I never tipped before, but now they had a tip screen with words like "fair", "great", etc. next to each option. I don't think there was any way to skip the tip without telling them they sucked.
posted by bfields at 11:56 AM on May 1, 2023 [21 favorites]
It's definitely confusing to be presented with an option to tip in some of the situations in seeing it in. I usually just tip because I'm pretty confident they need the money more than I do, but like...tips at the merch stand at a concert? What's that about? They're literally just grabbing a t-shirt from a pile?
I don't love it. I'd rather pay a higher sticker price for the good or service up front, than get hit up at the end for an unexpected service fee, and either pay it and feel taken advantage of or not pay it and feel like an asshole. I think most people would.
But ultimately I think this doesn't end without regulation, which I suspect will never come? It's absolutely in any individual business's best interests to do it this way.
posted by potrzebie at 12:01 PM on May 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
I don't love it. I'd rather pay a higher sticker price for the good or service up front, than get hit up at the end for an unexpected service fee, and either pay it and feel taken advantage of or not pay it and feel like an asshole. I think most people would.
But ultimately I think this doesn't end without regulation, which I suspect will never come? It's absolutely in any individual business's best interests to do it this way.
posted by potrzebie at 12:01 PM on May 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
The U.S. minimum wage has been been $7.25/hr since 2009 and if you can drop $5 bucks on a coffee you can drop $7. If you can drop $20 at a coffeeshop without fretting about it, you can drop $25. Tip your servers.
posted by mhoye at 12:01 PM on May 1, 2023 [103 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 12:01 PM on May 1, 2023 [103 favorites]
I don't think there was any way to skip the tip without telling them they sucked.
In stage magic, that would be referred to as “a force.”
posted by Silvery Fish at 12:01 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
In stage magic, that would be referred to as “a force.”
posted by Silvery Fish at 12:01 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
If I can afford $3 for a fucking cup of coffee, I can afford another 60c as a tip to the person who serves it to me. Last I checked there was still a pandemic going on, and I'm pretty sure my barista isn't getting hazard pay, so as for me, and my mask, I don't mind tipping for take-out. (Even though I'm in Ontario where minimum wage is >$15, the cost of living in Toronto makes that just as bullshit as $8 in the US.)
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:02 PM on May 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:02 PM on May 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
I honestly don't get why there hasn't been a violent revolt by back-of-house against front-of-house over this.
posted by kickingtheground at 12:07 PM on May 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by kickingtheground at 12:07 PM on May 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
The tipping culture that has gotten out of hand, of course, is companies not paying a living wage, and expecting their staff to survive off of the optional request for gratuity inserted into any interaction.
posted by entropone at 12:08 PM on May 1, 2023 [154 favorites]
posted by entropone at 12:08 PM on May 1, 2023 [154 favorites]
I honestly don't get why there hasn't been a violent revolt by back-of-house against front-of-house over this.
Because they split, maybe?
posted by Selena777 at 12:09 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Because they split, maybe?
posted by Selena777 at 12:09 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Either I don't get out of the house as much as I think I do, or I am not paying attention, but so far I've only encountered tipping in the usual settings: restaurants, coffee shops, or my stylist. I didn't realize people were being asked to tip for places like gift shops and the like. How strange. I mean, if we had UBI and a living wage, maybe we wouldn't have to be asked to tip in weird places.
posted by Kitteh at 12:10 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 12:10 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Sorry, I'm not tipping for takeout that I picked up myself. That involved no extra work on the staff's part. People who don't tip waitresses or bartenders are savages.
posted by greatalleycat at 12:10 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by greatalleycat at 12:10 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
And now places are starting to ask for separate tips for kitchen staff.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 12:11 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 12:11 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sorry, I'm not tipping for takeout that I picked up myself. That involved no extra work on the staff's part. People who don't tip waitresses or bartenders are savages.
The people working for minimum wage in the back are just as human and just as essential as the people working for minimum wage in the front. You, in this scenario, are the savage.
posted by mhoye at 12:14 PM on May 1, 2023 [30 favorites]
The people working for minimum wage in the back are just as human and just as essential as the people working for minimum wage in the front. You, in this scenario, are the savage.
posted by mhoye at 12:14 PM on May 1, 2023 [30 favorites]
I do tip at coffee shops, and as I said now I tip for takeout. But what I'm saying is I don't understand when people get mad at the very question.
For example, for a long time Starbucks could not accept tips at their credit card terminal. You could tip in cash, you could tip through mobile ordering, but not by credit card. In the past few months they added an option to tip at the credit card terminal and customers went absolutely wild at the audacity of having to press an extra button or feel any kind of "social pressure" from a store interaction.
Is tipping culture out of control? It's BEEN out of control. Why do we tip waiters and not store clerks? Hairdressers but not plumbers? There is a whole racial history of why some jobs are tipped.
posted by muddgirl at 12:17 PM on May 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
For example, for a long time Starbucks could not accept tips at their credit card terminal. You could tip in cash, you could tip through mobile ordering, but not by credit card. In the past few months they added an option to tip at the credit card terminal and customers went absolutely wild at the audacity of having to press an extra button or feel any kind of "social pressure" from a store interaction.
Is tipping culture out of control? It's BEEN out of control. Why do we tip waiters and not store clerks? Hairdressers but not plumbers? There is a whole racial history of why some jobs are tipped.
posted by muddgirl at 12:17 PM on May 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
A reminder that capitalism's main trick is pitting people against each other.
posted by wemayfreeze at 12:17 PM on May 1, 2023 [179 favorites]
posted by wemayfreeze at 12:17 PM on May 1, 2023 [179 favorites]
I was a waiter for a couple of years and the minimum wage for waitstaff is still $2.13. Of course I tip my waiter at a restaurant. I also tip my barber, because that's how they make most of their money. Everything else (which is starting to be a lot of places) gets the side eye, although I usually still tip.
My wife worked for Becks Prime a while last year, until her health issues flared up. They introduced tipping, and used it as an excuse to cut wages for the front of the house staff. I suspect that's why a lot of places are doing it.
posted by Spike Glee at 12:17 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
My wife worked for Becks Prime a while last year, until her health issues flared up. They introduced tipping, and used it as an excuse to cut wages for the front of the house staff. I suspect that's why a lot of places are doing it.
posted by Spike Glee at 12:17 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
But how much of it was kicked off at least by Point of Sale developers. Sort of like every online shopping site has a coupon/promo code section whether a store plans to use it or not?
I'm just very interested if this was pushed by payment processors like square, etc (and stores ran with it) or stores chose it from a bunch of screen options or whatever.
posted by atomicstone at 12:17 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm just very interested if this was pushed by payment processors like square, etc (and stores ran with it) or stores chose it from a bunch of screen options or whatever.
posted by atomicstone at 12:17 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
I always tip because I used to work service (any current/former service industry people know why), but I also can't help the creeping feeling that tipping "culture" is getting worse. For example, I often grab pickup window takeout on the way home from work, and there is now the option to tip for drive-thru. This did not used to be a thing. Why do I now tip someone for literally handing me a bag? We need to be getting rid of tipping and just paying people a damn wage. However, in the meantime, you still have to tip or you're an asshole.
posted by axiom at 12:21 PM on May 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by axiom at 12:21 PM on May 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
I had a strange thing happen the other day: A young woman who assisted me in ordering takeout at a restaurant refused a $5 bill as a tip saying, "We are not allowed to take cash tips." This, despite my having paid a cash tip for the same type of transaction at that restaurant many, many times before.
As I had already paid via credit card, I was unable (unwilling) to leave a tip.
posted by bz at 12:22 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
As I had already paid via credit card, I was unable (unwilling) to leave a tip.
posted by bz at 12:22 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sorry, I'm not tipping for takeout that I picked up myself. That involved no extra work on the staff's part.
My family and I had the same mentality until we heard from a family member who is a server that boxing and packaging to-go orders is part of that job.
posted by Selena777 at 12:23 PM on May 1, 2023 [36 favorites]
My only issue (and effectively the only time I dont tip) is when the tip menu comes up on the card reader and the lowest option over 20% and there's no button for a custom tip. That's only happened a few times, but each time I just hit no tip.
Some legit dark patterns are starting to get baked into the point of sale tip systems. While during the lockdowns we were doing what we could to even tip 30%+ where possible, it's also true that some people are setting up their tip systems in frankly hostile ways.
posted by tclark at 12:24 PM on May 1, 2023 [23 favorites]
Some legit dark patterns are starting to get baked into the point of sale tip systems. While during the lockdowns we were doing what we could to even tip 30%+ where possible, it's also true that some people are setting up their tip systems in frankly hostile ways.
posted by tclark at 12:24 PM on May 1, 2023 [23 favorites]
Sorry, I'm not tipping for takeout that I picked up myself. That involved no extra work on the staff's part. People who don't tip waitresses or bartenders are savages.
The people working for minimum wage in the back are just as human and just as essential as the people working for minimum wage in the front. You, in this scenario, are the savage.
posted by mhoye at 12:14 PM on May 1 [+] [!]
I'm pretty sure (at least here in Massachusetts) it's illegal to share tips with the back of house staff. Some restaurants are adding a % fee to the bill that (they claim) goes to back of house, but they cannot legally divide tips between front and back of house.
posted by youthenrage at 12:25 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
The people working for minimum wage in the back are just as human and just as essential as the people working for minimum wage in the front. You, in this scenario, are the savage.
posted by mhoye at 12:14 PM on May 1 [+] [!]
I'm pretty sure (at least here in Massachusetts) it's illegal to share tips with the back of house staff. Some restaurants are adding a % fee to the bill that (they claim) goes to back of house, but they cannot legally divide tips between front and back of house.
posted by youthenrage at 12:25 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Our tips are pooled, I get essentially minimum wage + tips, and those tips are heavily normalized so I make $x/hour no matter. Minimum wage for the State went up this year. Got an email that says my heavily normalized min. wage + tip will stay the same.
That's honestly pretty fucked.
I'd quit but I really need the money.
posted by alex_skazat at 12:25 PM on May 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
That's honestly pretty fucked.
I'd quit but I really need the money.
posted by alex_skazat at 12:25 PM on May 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
Those fucking terminals with the prechosen options have now made it to scandiland. People here are paid a normal amount, have free health care, paid holidays and all that jazz. If I enjoy everything a bit extra or I am a regular I am not adverse to dropping a few quid on top of that, but I think the next time I get presented with one of those screens I'm gonna walk.
posted by Iteki at 12:27 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Iteki at 12:27 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
Yes, tipping is out of control and it's a way of pressuring people to become sociopaths (by getting a "discount" for not tipping), which is the goal of capitalism.
When I saw this post, the first thing that popped into my head was, "Have they moved beyond cows now? Are kids out there tipping horses? Rhinos? Elephants???"
posted by rikschell at 12:27 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
When I saw this post, the first thing that popped into my head was, "Have they moved beyond cows now? Are kids out there tipping horses? Rhinos? Elephants???"
posted by rikschell at 12:27 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
There was a short-lived restaurant near me that had no tipping and there was language in their menu about how they paid the staff a living wage. That seems like the right way to do it. I wish their service didn't suck so badly -- it makes really bad example.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:29 PM on May 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:29 PM on May 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Do y'all think capitalism culture has gotten out of control?
posted by away for regrooving at 12:31 PM on May 1, 2023 [39 favorites]
posted by away for regrooving at 12:31 PM on May 1, 2023 [39 favorites]
If you can drop $20 at a coffeeshop without fretting about it, you can drop $25. Tip your servers.
Yeah. That's how I see it. It's definitely not cool that employers are shifting the burden of providing a living age onto the whims of customers rewarding emotional labor, but if we're going to have a de facto "pay what you are able" system, I'll gladly toss in some extra bucks because at least they're going to the employees (I hope!)
I also typically get my $19.95 supercuts haircut once or twice a year and plow the money that I would have been spending in getting a haircut every month into the tip as a way of sticking it to capitalism. It's only fair.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:31 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah. That's how I see it. It's definitely not cool that employers are shifting the burden of providing a living age onto the whims of customers rewarding emotional labor, but if we're going to have a de facto "pay what you are able" system, I'll gladly toss in some extra bucks because at least they're going to the employees (I hope!)
I also typically get my $19.95 supercuts haircut once or twice a year and plow the money that I would have been spending in getting a haircut every month into the tip as a way of sticking it to capitalism. It's only fair.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:31 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't care how much whining there is or attempts to guilt me, I will not contribute to any further shifting of responsibility to the consumer to pay wages directly, no matter how many point of sale terminals try to make me do so. I tip generously to people who are doing a personal, customized service for me, like house cleaners. People at takeout windows can suck it.
posted by tavella at 12:38 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by tavella at 12:38 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Well, besides wider frequency of people asking for tips, more places are also adding a surcharge to my bill when I use a credit card. Last week they just did it without even mentioning it, which I guess makes sense as a server because I bet a lot of people will immediately deduct it from the tip.
I know that tips are for staff and the surcharge goes to the business side of the house but...it feels like everyone involved in the transaction wants me to pay my bill and then also pay them something extra.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:43 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I know that tips are for staff and the surcharge goes to the business side of the house but...it feels like everyone involved in the transaction wants me to pay my bill and then also pay them something extra.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:43 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I agree that people deserve to be paid more, but five seconds of work to put a pre-made pastry into a bag does not deserve a 20% tip. That's literally insane. Employers all over are making money hand over fist and can afford to pay workers more. And if businesses argue that they "can't" — even though they really can, if we're being honest — then governments should both mandate pay increases and implement a ceiling on profit margins, so that they can't push the cost back onto consumers.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:46 PM on May 1, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:46 PM on May 1, 2023 [21 favorites]
Got prompted to tip at a Menchi's frozen yogurt the other day. You literally get your own bowl, fill it yourself, and then simply hand your credit card to the worker there. That one kinda blew my mind a bit...
Another one: I ordered something off a website that used something like squarespace or similar pre-fabbed e-commerce site. They asked for a tip on that transaction.
posted by keep_evolving at 12:51 PM on May 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Another one: I ordered something off a website that used something like squarespace or similar pre-fabbed e-commerce site. They asked for a tip on that transaction.
posted by keep_evolving at 12:51 PM on May 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
All this talk about what employers can and should do doesn't matter if they don't. Tip your servers.
posted by mhoye at 12:52 PM on May 1, 2023 [30 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 12:52 PM on May 1, 2023 [30 favorites]
I agree the servers should be paid more. The servers agree they should be paid more. The small-l-liberals I vote for agree the servers should be paid more. However, the bosses don't want to pay them more, and the small-c-conservatives that get elected don't want to pay them more. I think, on the whole, that it's better for me to pay them more directly and continue to vote for legislative relief, than to say "well I don't have to pay them more, so I won't." That's just shitty.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:53 PM on May 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:53 PM on May 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
Why do I now tip someone for literally handing me a bag?
Sorry, I'm not tipping for takeout that I picked up myself.
People at takeout windows can suck it.
five seconds of work to put a pre-made pastry into a bag does not deserve a 20% tip.
I am surprised to see this sentiment so prominent on Metafilter!
Do people really think the person at the takeout window is doing nothing but handing out bags all day? The food doesn't magically appear hot and ready and neatly packaged. People make it, to order, in the kitchen, and then the front of house prepares it to be served or delivered. It's invisible to you by design. The price does not reflect the total cost of the service of making, serving, and packaging the item — I agree that's a problem, but it's not a problem solved by refusing to acknowledge the true total cost by not tipping.
I will not contribute to any further shifting of responsibility to the consumer to pay wages directly
I understand this, but I don't feel choosing to not tip puts any pressure on the companies doing this. It only lowers the effective pay of people whose labor is being exploited. To be honest, by buying but not tipping I feel one is more complicit in this system than less; a greater proportion of your dollar goes to the bad actor, less to the worker.
Not buying at places that exploit workers feels like the way to make this principle felt by the companies in question. I think tips should be eliminated too, but until that happens I feel there are better forms of non-participation.
All this talk about what employers can and should do doesn't matter if they don't. Tip your servers.
This!
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 12:54 PM on May 1, 2023 [50 favorites]
Sorry, I'm not tipping for takeout that I picked up myself.
People at takeout windows can suck it.
five seconds of work to put a pre-made pastry into a bag does not deserve a 20% tip.
I am surprised to see this sentiment so prominent on Metafilter!
Do people really think the person at the takeout window is doing nothing but handing out bags all day? The food doesn't magically appear hot and ready and neatly packaged. People make it, to order, in the kitchen, and then the front of house prepares it to be served or delivered. It's invisible to you by design. The price does not reflect the total cost of the service of making, serving, and packaging the item — I agree that's a problem, but it's not a problem solved by refusing to acknowledge the true total cost by not tipping.
I will not contribute to any further shifting of responsibility to the consumer to pay wages directly
I understand this, but I don't feel choosing to not tip puts any pressure on the companies doing this. It only lowers the effective pay of people whose labor is being exploited. To be honest, by buying but not tipping I feel one is more complicit in this system than less; a greater proportion of your dollar goes to the bad actor, less to the worker.
Not buying at places that exploit workers feels like the way to make this principle felt by the companies in question. I think tips should be eliminated too, but until that happens I feel there are better forms of non-participation.
All this talk about what employers can and should do doesn't matter if they don't. Tip your servers.
This!
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 12:54 PM on May 1, 2023 [50 favorites]
I think the "kitchen appreciation fees" and such bs is just a way to raise prices without changing the price on the menu per item. I mean, you could just, like, PAY THE GODDAMNED KITCHEN STAFF MORE and have that reflected in your prices.
posted by rmd1023 at 12:54 PM on May 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 12:54 PM on May 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
I agree that people deserve to be paid more, but five seconds of work to put a pre-made pastry into a bag does not deserve a 20% tip. That's literally insane.
If you're talking about what people making minimum wage "deserve" you've already picked a side. Tipping is the battlefield medicine of class warfare, it's not going to cure anything but it might stop the bleeding for a while so if you can afford to do it you do it.
posted by mhoye at 12:55 PM on May 1, 2023 [63 favorites]
If you're talking about what people making minimum wage "deserve" you've already picked a side. Tipping is the battlefield medicine of class warfare, it's not going to cure anything but it might stop the bleeding for a while so if you can afford to do it you do it.
posted by mhoye at 12:55 PM on May 1, 2023 [63 favorites]
I also wonder if the money from these extra "tips" even go to the workers. I assume the business skims off the top of credit card transactions. Do they just go to the worker logged into the computer?
I've always been told to tip in cash whenever possible.
posted by greatalleycat at 12:55 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
I've always been told to tip in cash whenever possible.
posted by greatalleycat at 12:55 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
Social pressure comes from an individual's past, not a present situation. Two folks in the same line perceive different things. And the same person in two locations of the same franchise may think they are identical, but actually be facing two completely different scenarios behind the counter.
Tipping jobs provide a spectrum of risk/reward and a spectrum of effort/reward that changes by the worker, by the job, and by environmental factors.
While some feel they have no opportunity outside of jobs that take advantage of them, others choose these positions because they are getting the overall compensation that they want.
So, when I see tips showing up places they really shouldn't - self checkouts, online orders etc, what that's telling me is that the business is pitching their staff on accepting a below-market wage in return for a spin at the tips wheel.
On the other hand, I see it as a deceptive way to advertise a lower price than they final charge to customers. I remember when companies advertised the price and the shipping cost and that was that. But then they started adding "handling" fees. It's the same as that - lower price up front, trick you to pay more at checkout.
It's not just that they are lowering the price to appear competitive, but also that they are gambling with the staff over their wages.
I think that's total crap. Don't lowball your staff to make you look cheaper than your competitors. Don't advertise one price, and then guilt trip me into paying more.
It's all a trick, to make me feel guilty into paying more than advertised.
posted by rebent at 12:56 PM on May 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
Tipping jobs provide a spectrum of risk/reward and a spectrum of effort/reward that changes by the worker, by the job, and by environmental factors.
While some feel they have no opportunity outside of jobs that take advantage of them, others choose these positions because they are getting the overall compensation that they want.
So, when I see tips showing up places they really shouldn't - self checkouts, online orders etc, what that's telling me is that the business is pitching their staff on accepting a below-market wage in return for a spin at the tips wheel.
On the other hand, I see it as a deceptive way to advertise a lower price than they final charge to customers. I remember when companies advertised the price and the shipping cost and that was that. But then they started adding "handling" fees. It's the same as that - lower price up front, trick you to pay more at checkout.
It's not just that they are lowering the price to appear competitive, but also that they are gambling with the staff over their wages.
I think that's total crap. Don't lowball your staff to make you look cheaper than your competitors. Don't advertise one price, and then guilt trip me into paying more.
It's all a trick, to make me feel guilty into paying more than advertised.
posted by rebent at 12:56 PM on May 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
I've wondered whether tipping in cash is a better deal for the recipient, but I don't see any way to find out. I expect it varies from one establishment to another.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:57 PM on May 1, 2023
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:57 PM on May 1, 2023
I generally like tipping and do it in a lot of these over-the-counter circumstances. One of the advantages to being a tipper is that on the rare occasion where I decide against it I don't feel guilty, because I probably got 'em last time or I'll do it the next.
(Obviously I'm not talking about table service where tipping is mandatory every time.)
My philosophy on tipping is that it's a cheap way to feel both rich and generous. Totally worth it for the endorphin hit. We've occasionally given real money to scholarship funds etc. but honestly you get so much more emotional mileage out of $2 tips.
posted by anhedonic at 12:57 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
(Obviously I'm not talking about table service where tipping is mandatory every time.)
My philosophy on tipping is that it's a cheap way to feel both rich and generous. Totally worth it for the endorphin hit. We've occasionally given real money to scholarship funds etc. but honestly you get so much more emotional mileage out of $2 tips.
posted by anhedonic at 12:57 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Tips paid my rent and my groceries and my vet bills and much much more in the years of our Audre Lorde 2003-2009. I know what it's like to have to work for tips and what it's like when the people you serve treat you like shit but still expect to be treated like royalty (but still don't tip).
I understand the tip fatigue in places where we didn't have to tip, but when it comes to food prep, Jesus Christ, please tip. It's likely how the person pays the rent, their groceries, their vet bills, and whatever else they need to survive in this capitalist hellscape. We can bang on about employers needing to raise their wages but as folks have pointed out, until that day comes, people gotta survive.
posted by Kitteh at 1:05 PM on May 1, 2023 [36 favorites]
I understand the tip fatigue in places where we didn't have to tip, but when it comes to food prep, Jesus Christ, please tip. It's likely how the person pays the rent, their groceries, their vet bills, and whatever else they need to survive in this capitalist hellscape. We can bang on about employers needing to raise their wages but as folks have pointed out, until that day comes, people gotta survive.
posted by Kitteh at 1:05 PM on May 1, 2023 [36 favorites]
How do people feel about places that don't have a separate minimum wage for tipped workers? Speaking hypothetically, why does a server need tips when, say, an usher or a laborer working for minimum wage doesn't?
I mean, I tip, but I've also worked lots of jobs where I felt jealous of people who were tipped, because I, too, was doing customer service for minimum wage.
posted by sagc at 1:11 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
I mean, I tip, but I've also worked lots of jobs where I felt jealous of people who were tipped, because I, too, was doing customer service for minimum wage.
posted by sagc at 1:11 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
There's so many angles to this. I do not mind at all adding a few bucks or 20% or whatever is appropriate if it lands in the pocket of people who are preparing my food or beverages.
And I don't mind tipping at small businesses where I'm pretty sure they're just hanging on, I don't care that "all" the person did was hand me my order. As long as that tip is going into the workers' pockets, it's fine.
I worked food service and retail once upon a time. I managed to get out and I have a job that pays well without being on my feet all day or having to deal with unpleasant customers[1]. The least I can do (I feel) is kick in a little extra and hope that it makes a difference for other people. Likewise, if I'm helping a small business to stay afloat, I'm all for it.
I mind a lot when I feel like I'm supplementing shitty business practices by businesses that are doing just fine but refuse to pay people well. That is to say, major chains that are likely making a hefty profit already but add tipping to the process rather than just paying people a living wage.
But, yeah. It kind of feels "out of control" in the sense that it's spread a lot very quickly for things that didn't use to "require" tipping and I have no idea how that money is really being distributed. If I hit 20% tip on the screen who gets the money? Is the business skimming a cut? Is it being spread out amongst all staff?
Late stage capitalism really sucks.
[1] Which is not to say all of the people I encounter are pleasant, and there's the occasional workplace politics, but it's not as bad as dealing with the unfiltered public 8 hours a day.
posted by jzb at 1:12 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
And I don't mind tipping at small businesses where I'm pretty sure they're just hanging on, I don't care that "all" the person did was hand me my order. As long as that tip is going into the workers' pockets, it's fine.
I worked food service and retail once upon a time. I managed to get out and I have a job that pays well without being on my feet all day or having to deal with unpleasant customers[1]. The least I can do (I feel) is kick in a little extra and hope that it makes a difference for other people. Likewise, if I'm helping a small business to stay afloat, I'm all for it.
I mind a lot when I feel like I'm supplementing shitty business practices by businesses that are doing just fine but refuse to pay people well. That is to say, major chains that are likely making a hefty profit already but add tipping to the process rather than just paying people a living wage.
But, yeah. It kind of feels "out of control" in the sense that it's spread a lot very quickly for things that didn't use to "require" tipping and I have no idea how that money is really being distributed. If I hit 20% tip on the screen who gets the money? Is the business skimming a cut? Is it being spread out amongst all staff?
Late stage capitalism really sucks.
[1] Which is not to say all of the people I encounter are pleasant, and there's the occasional workplace politics, but it's not as bad as dealing with the unfiltered public 8 hours a day.
posted by jzb at 1:12 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
That article alleges that research shows that 97% of riders tip their cabbies. Well, I work for a Large Institution which reimburses tips incurred on business travel, I have reason to review travel expenses and the entire remaining 3% must work at my job. Trip after trip, ride after ride, and no tips, no tips at all. I would curl up and die of the very shame if some poor schmoe making sub minimum wage were driving me around at rush hour and I didn't give him his 20%, doubly and trebly so if my employer were going to reimburse it.
I find it pretty hard not to tip when tipping is even sort of expected. When I was growing up it was dinned into my head in various ways that if you were richer, stronger or more advantaged than someone you had an obligation to them - maybe a bit of a snob obligation - and you absolutely had to behave in an open-handed way. Making things harder for someone when they were at a disadvantage was simply not done. Admittedly, this is a bit hilarious when I'm tipping my barber, who is wildly successful, almost twenty years younger than me and almost certainly making a lot more than I do, but I'd rather behave in a generous way all the time than spend a lot of intellect nickeling and diming.
I think I also dislike the idea that money would have so much dominion over me that I'd always be calculating and withholding and allocating and measuring - better to be open-handed and maybe give a bit extra than always be stuck there with your horrible little scales weighing services down to the penny.
posted by Frowner at 1:12 PM on May 1, 2023 [31 favorites]
I find it pretty hard not to tip when tipping is even sort of expected. When I was growing up it was dinned into my head in various ways that if you were richer, stronger or more advantaged than someone you had an obligation to them - maybe a bit of a snob obligation - and you absolutely had to behave in an open-handed way. Making things harder for someone when they were at a disadvantage was simply not done. Admittedly, this is a bit hilarious when I'm tipping my barber, who is wildly successful, almost twenty years younger than me and almost certainly making a lot more than I do, but I'd rather behave in a generous way all the time than spend a lot of intellect nickeling and diming.
I think I also dislike the idea that money would have so much dominion over me that I'd always be calculating and withholding and allocating and measuring - better to be open-handed and maybe give a bit extra than always be stuck there with your horrible little scales weighing services down to the penny.
posted by Frowner at 1:12 PM on May 1, 2023 [31 favorites]
I don't mind tipping in food places- but I am now starting to see "take out fee" added to bills where we didn't before. I have also seen a "paid cash" fee and a "credit card fee."
And finally - the bodega next door to my work has a tip option, where they did not before.
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 1:15 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
And finally - the bodega next door to my work has a tip option, where they did not before.
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 1:15 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm fortunate that I've never had to wait tables and be dependent on tips, but I know people who have, and that means I always give 20% no questions asked. Even if I'm just picking my food up at the restaurant, I'll still give 20%.
Covid aside, I have a hard time seeing why anyone would want to go to a sit down restaurant with wait staff because why the fuck do we perpetuate this idea of being "served" and rewarding it with gratuities? I'll gladly bring my food back to the table and bus my dishes if it means someone doesn't have to work tables and beg for tips. Fast casual all the way. And I'll still leave a generous tip at the counter when I order because working food service in the kitchen also sucks.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:16 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Covid aside, I have a hard time seeing why anyone would want to go to a sit down restaurant with wait staff because why the fuck do we perpetuate this idea of being "served" and rewarding it with gratuities? I'll gladly bring my food back to the table and bus my dishes if it means someone doesn't have to work tables and beg for tips. Fast casual all the way. And I'll still leave a generous tip at the counter when I order because working food service in the kitchen also sucks.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:16 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
That last paragraph, Frowner - I feel like tipping can increase that feeling for some people, since there's this ever-rising hidden charge. If you're counting pennies, the tip can be unpleasant.
And you could say that just means you can't afford it, but it also means the business, by not paying a living wage, has tried to hide whose fault it is.
posted by sagc at 1:17 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
And you could say that just means you can't afford it, but it also means the business, by not paying a living wage, has tried to hide whose fault it is.
posted by sagc at 1:17 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
In Oregon waiters are paid a minimum wage of $13.50 as a baseline, in addition to tips. The $13.50 minimum wage has driven up the cost of food in restaurants, and being expected to pay a $15-20% tip on top of that can get very expensive. I do tip it when I eat out, but on the other hand I hardly ever eat at sit down restaurants anymore, just because it's so expensive now. I don't think I'm alone in that, either. For a lot of people I know, dining out has gone from being a fairly regular thing to an occasional extravagance. Waiters deserve a living wage, but I feel like it's ultimately going to be self-defeating, by driving away too many customers. Then again, people pay insane prices for door dash, so who knows.
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 1:19 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 1:19 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
did start tipping for takeaway service during the pandemic,
This is actually still my biggest motivator for nearly doubling the tip I always give takeout now. We're still isolating, and I know we're able to do that because I have a lot of privilege with my job. The people working at restaurants (and yes, any service job) are still COVID front line workers in my mind.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 1:20 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is actually still my biggest motivator for nearly doubling the tip I always give takeout now. We're still isolating, and I know we're able to do that because I have a lot of privilege with my job. The people working at restaurants (and yes, any service job) are still COVID front line workers in my mind.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 1:20 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Well, I work for a Large Institution which reimburses tips incurred on business travel, I have reason to review travel expenses and the entire remaining 3% must work at my job.
What's their policy on tipping? My workplace has a corporate Uber account and a strict policy about tipping, plus I'm not sure whether Uber skims the tips. So I just give cash out of my own pocket. I realize I'm subsidizing my employer somewhat, but thankfully I don't have to travel too much and it's not huge sums of money.
posted by jzb at 1:21 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
What's their policy on tipping? My workplace has a corporate Uber account and a strict policy about tipping, plus I'm not sure whether Uber skims the tips. So I just give cash out of my own pocket. I realize I'm subsidizing my employer somewhat, but thankfully I don't have to travel too much and it's not huge sums of money.
posted by jzb at 1:21 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
We can bang on about employers needing to raise their wages but as folks have pointed out, until that day comes, people gotta survive.
that's the thing, though, the day will NEVER come if people keep just going along with it.
posted by Clowder of bats at 1:22 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
that's the thing, though, the day will NEVER come if people keep just going along with it.
posted by Clowder of bats at 1:22 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well, I work for a Large Institution which reimburses tips incurred on business travel, I have reason to review travel expenses and the entire remaining 3% must work at my job.
For business travel I tip and tip well, but it comes out of my pocket since everywhere I've ever worked has fought with me on expenses and I'd rather have 22% come out of my pocket than leave a miserly 15% company approved tip and be an asshole.
posted by mikesch at 1:27 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
For business travel I tip and tip well, but it comes out of my pocket since everywhere I've ever worked has fought with me on expenses and I'd rather have 22% come out of my pocket than leave a miserly 15% company approved tip and be an asshole.
posted by mikesch at 1:27 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
Clowder of bats, what's your idea of "going along with it?" Does it involve not frequenting companies that solicit tips, or going there and not tipping?
posted by Selena777 at 1:28 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 1:28 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
I generally tip for any kind of service industry thing, but my problem is mixed service and retail spaces. If I'm buying a $25 hat and a $6 coffee I'm not leaving a $7 tip for that. It always ends up being some weird quick math in my head that comes out terribly skewed one way or another. I wish terminals knew how to split that kind of thing.
Also a place where I get my breakfast burritos defaults to $1, $2 or $3 if you're under $15 and then prompts 30%, 35% and 40% after that. And, hah, no. I round to the nearest 20-25% and enter it manually.
And yes, you should be tipping for takeout, it's often more work for the servers than if you are seated at the restaurant.
posted by mikesch at 1:32 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also a place where I get my breakfast burritos defaults to $1, $2 or $3 if you're under $15 and then prompts 30%, 35% and 40% after that. And, hah, no. I round to the nearest 20-25% and enter it manually.
And yes, you should be tipping for takeout, it's often more work for the servers than if you are seated at the restaurant.
posted by mikesch at 1:32 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
What's their policy on tipping?
We actually have a very clearly written policy on tipping (up to 20% on pre-tax taxi charges; can argue for more if truly extraordinary services are performed). When I have the opportunity to review policy with people, I always point out that tipping is reimbursed - but this seldom changes anything. It's funny - people at Large Institution very often feel no qualms about spending money on fancy meals and fancy events but it's all about "oh we've got to save the institution's money" when it's three or four dollars for the cab driver.
"Responsible stewardship" means little to them when it gets in the way of whatever lavish purchase they're eyeballing but it means the world when they might be expected to give some guy five dollars.
posted by Frowner at 1:33 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
We actually have a very clearly written policy on tipping (up to 20% on pre-tax taxi charges; can argue for more if truly extraordinary services are performed). When I have the opportunity to review policy with people, I always point out that tipping is reimbursed - but this seldom changes anything. It's funny - people at Large Institution very often feel no qualms about spending money on fancy meals and fancy events but it's all about "oh we've got to save the institution's money" when it's three or four dollars for the cab driver.
"Responsible stewardship" means little to them when it gets in the way of whatever lavish purchase they're eyeballing but it means the world when they might be expected to give some guy five dollars.
posted by Frowner at 1:33 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Also germane to this discussion IMO is that no-tip restaurants were the hot new thing in NYC almost a decade ago, and they seem to have been mostly a disaster. Part of the draw was that the "service included" price could legally be distributed to back-of-house staff as well as servers, but the servers made less and hated it.
posted by anhedonic at 1:34 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by anhedonic at 1:34 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Any situation where it is customary to tip, I always do so. If it's an over-the-counter transaction and there's a tip jar, I'm hitting it. Sometimes I'll tip the drive thru guy if I hit the Taco Bell for late night munchies. If I'm a regular at a place, you get more tip. If we're friends or acquaintances, you get bonus tip. Even when I'm friends with the owner of a bar and they serve me, they get tipped. If I get a free drink, I tip the price of the drink in addition to the regular tip.
Life's hard. Work sucks. If you got the extra juice, give it the squeeze.
posted by slogger at 1:34 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
Life's hard. Work sucks. If you got the extra juice, give it the squeeze.
posted by slogger at 1:34 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
Raise the salaries to a reasonable wage and ban tipping, this is bullshit.
I kinda get that in a restaurant/bar context, it's some kind of profit/risk-sharing agreement and it allows for raising the effective salary on some shifts without killing the owner on bad shifts but they should figure that shit out without asking clients to intervene. Also the 'be good or I won't tip' part of this is just gross.
Also Americans keep exporting their tipping culture everywhere, it's so annoying.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:35 PM on May 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
I kinda get that in a restaurant/bar context, it's some kind of profit/risk-sharing agreement and it allows for raising the effective salary on some shifts without killing the owner on bad shifts but they should figure that shit out without asking clients to intervene. Also the 'be good or I won't tip' part of this is just gross.
Also Americans keep exporting their tipping culture everywhere, it's so annoying.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:35 PM on May 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
that's the thing, though, the day will NEVER come if people keep just going along with it.
There is evidence that tipping perpetuates low wages, in that those in legislative power who are opposed to minimum wage increases often use tipping culture as a way to argue against it, by saying that raises aren't needed, because we have tips. It's a cycle.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:36 PM on May 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
There is evidence that tipping perpetuates low wages, in that those in legislative power who are opposed to minimum wage increases often use tipping culture as a way to argue against it, by saying that raises aren't needed, because we have tips. It's a cycle.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:36 PM on May 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
I feel like the core problem is that a tip should ideally be ... well, a tip, not an actual wage. It shouldn't be so heavy or so hard to do, on both ends. The fact that tipping has become a payroll system is a deep problem. It adds up to real money, and just saying "you can't afford Thing/Event if you can't double that!" doesn't do justice to the problem.
Then there's the idea that tips scale with the cost of the item, when they really should scale with the amount of time spent. 20% of a $30 takeout order that I pick up myself, and where that person is processing dozens of these per hour, is not justified either by the amount of service they provide nor by the hourly rate that sets their pay at. Whereas someone who handles 5 four-tops for an hour probably overworked for the $40 that might earn them.
Fast tipping on tablets really needs to come with a multiplier: your tip of 20% here is equivalent to a $300/hr wage. That's where it's gotten way out of hand, it relies on exactly no one working that out.
posted by Dashy at 1:39 PM on May 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Then there's the idea that tips scale with the cost of the item, when they really should scale with the amount of time spent. 20% of a $30 takeout order that I pick up myself, and where that person is processing dozens of these per hour, is not justified either by the amount of service they provide nor by the hourly rate that sets their pay at. Whereas someone who handles 5 four-tops for an hour probably overworked for the $40 that might earn them.
Fast tipping on tablets really needs to come with a multiplier: your tip of 20% here is equivalent to a $300/hr wage. That's where it's gotten way out of hand, it relies on exactly no one working that out.
posted by Dashy at 1:39 PM on May 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
I worked food service and retail once upon a time. I managed to get out and I have a job that pays well without being on my feet all day or having to deal with unpleasant customers[1]. The least I can do (I feel) is kick in a little extra and hope that it makes a difference for other people. Likewise, if I'm helping a small business to stay afloat, I'm all for it.
That's how I think of it. I did my time working for tips before making the permanent leap to much better paying admin work so when I tip for food service, I do it with the thought of "I have been there, it was hard, and I am paying it forward."
posted by Kitteh at 1:39 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's how I think of it. I did my time working for tips before making the permanent leap to much better paying admin work so when I tip for food service, I do it with the thought of "I have been there, it was hard, and I am paying it forward."
posted by Kitteh at 1:39 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I tip for food/drinks, taxi/Uber/Lyft, and for services where someone has to touch you (e.g., piercer, massage, hair cut). Outside of that it is case by case, sometimes its a strong no and sometimes it is clearly the right thing to do.
Overall I really dislike tipping as an approach and wish we would just agree to pay people more, but for the moment this is the system we have here and therefore I behave appropriately and tip in those settings.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:43 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Overall I really dislike tipping as an approach and wish we would just agree to pay people more, but for the moment this is the system we have here and therefore I behave appropriately and tip in those settings.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:43 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
The real problem, though - as with platform services, AirBnB, etc - is that the very rich keep too much money.
Most of us don't in fact make enough money to pay a fair price for everything we buy. I tip like it's going out of style but I buy my groceries at Aldi and Trader Joe's and an awful lot of my entertainment is determined by "is it free on the internet". The barrista makes bank from me, but I can't afford for the gardener and the factory worker to do the same, and that is because - as you know, Bob - the wealthy get most of the profits while my wages stagnate.
If I can choose to screw over some workers - whether that's by not tipping, purchasing things made in sweatshops, staying in a quasi-legal AirBnB, patronizing non-union businesses or whatever - then I can conceal from myself the degree to which my wages are stolen. I get screwed over, I pass it along, I feel richer. And of course, while I can afford to tip, I can't afford the co-op or non-sweatshop clothes, so I'm passing it along too.
~~
I add that the whole "therefore we should not tip" thing doesn't make sense - the system isn't just propped up on tips, it's propped up on anti-union legislation, international trade deals and sweatshops, immigration policy, etc. If we all stopped tipping, all that would happen was that we'd have a little more money in our pockets and tipped workers would get even more screwed, just like farmworkers. The system is one thing.
As usual the answer is that we have to support worker organizing, whether that's unions, marches on the boss, etc and meanwhile be as fair with our money as we can. But the real deal is that the rich are taking all the money. We could pay fairly for things if we were paid fairly.
posted by Frowner at 1:49 PM on May 1, 2023 [35 favorites]
Most of us don't in fact make enough money to pay a fair price for everything we buy. I tip like it's going out of style but I buy my groceries at Aldi and Trader Joe's and an awful lot of my entertainment is determined by "is it free on the internet". The barrista makes bank from me, but I can't afford for the gardener and the factory worker to do the same, and that is because - as you know, Bob - the wealthy get most of the profits while my wages stagnate.
If I can choose to screw over some workers - whether that's by not tipping, purchasing things made in sweatshops, staying in a quasi-legal AirBnB, patronizing non-union businesses or whatever - then I can conceal from myself the degree to which my wages are stolen. I get screwed over, I pass it along, I feel richer. And of course, while I can afford to tip, I can't afford the co-op or non-sweatshop clothes, so I'm passing it along too.
~~
I add that the whole "therefore we should not tip" thing doesn't make sense - the system isn't just propped up on tips, it's propped up on anti-union legislation, international trade deals and sweatshops, immigration policy, etc. If we all stopped tipping, all that would happen was that we'd have a little more money in our pockets and tipped workers would get even more screwed, just like farmworkers. The system is one thing.
As usual the answer is that we have to support worker organizing, whether that's unions, marches on the boss, etc and meanwhile be as fair with our money as we can. But the real deal is that the rich are taking all the money. We could pay fairly for things if we were paid fairly.
posted by Frowner at 1:49 PM on May 1, 2023 [35 favorites]
Also Americans keep exporting their tipping culture everywhere, it's so annoying.
I wasn't aware that the commerce department had a film strip on this. Americans tipping other then in America is ok by me, I'm a cook and I get tips. But if the worker finds it offensive, by all means give it back, Americans love money., honesty and good service.
posted by clavdivs at 1:49 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wasn't aware that the commerce department had a film strip on this. Americans tipping other then in America is ok by me, I'm a cook and I get tips. But if the worker finds it offensive, by all means give it back, Americans love money., honesty and good service.
posted by clavdivs at 1:49 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can afford to tip well, and do. 20% is my minimum in almost every situation.
That said, I'm pretty damn tired of the scam that companies and American culture in general is pulling here. Lots of places now have a line at the bottom of the menu that they add an X% surcharge to support livable wages or benefits and I'm still tipping well on top of that.
The last family meal we had at a restaurant, I did some math after the fact, and the total amount I paid was something like 155% of the menu price.
How about we just have accurate prices and stop throwing in all these extra BS fees?
posted by Ickster at 1:51 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
That said, I'm pretty damn tired of the scam that companies and American culture in general is pulling here. Lots of places now have a line at the bottom of the menu that they add an X% surcharge to support livable wages or benefits and I'm still tipping well on top of that.
The last family meal we had at a restaurant, I did some math after the fact, and the total amount I paid was something like 155% of the menu price.
How about we just have accurate prices and stop throwing in all these extra BS fees?
posted by Ickster at 1:51 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
(The American service pricing model is like the inverse of our health care pricing model. It's like American business just can't handle transparent pricing, because then there's no way to screw customers.)
posted by Ickster at 1:53 PM on May 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Ickster at 1:53 PM on May 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
I wonder if some small percentage of the "I'm supposed to tip for THAT???" is from poor setup of newer POSs. Like, I bought a t-shirt at a concert a couple weeks ago and it asked for a tip (I did not tip anything) and all I could think was that surely it's just the default out-of-box setting that someone didn't bother to or know how to change. Similarly, if you're picking up food from a restaurant that also does table service and/or delivery, they probably can't give different options for a pickup order than they do for other transactions.
posted by misskaz at 1:56 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by misskaz at 1:56 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
There is evidence that tipping perpetuates low wages, in that those in legislative power who are opposed to minimum wage increases often use tipping culture as a way to argue against it, by saying that raises aren't needed, because we have tips. It's a cycle.
Yes, this, 1000%. It is not a coincidence that the genre of article "tipping is getting out of control!" has surged with the increase in touchscreen POS systems replacing older non-customer-facing POS systems. These new POS systems have default tipping options that frankly, a) are spreading tipping to a wider range of transactions than ever before and b) are insane. I've seen them as high as 45%. Forty-five percent!
I am a socialist. I believe in class solidarity. My default tip up to $20 is $5, and 20% for any amount $20.01 and above. (Yes, I tip $5 on a $4 cup of coffee.) I do this because I have the money and it hopefully gives these workers more money in pocket so they don't have to work second jobs and can do other things with that time (like unionize, but I'm not pushing anyone to do that.)
I do not tip at these customer-facing POS systems in any context in which it is not culturally expected. Gift shops, merch tables at shows, supermarkets (I have seen this but curiously enough, only at the non-unionized supermarkets. Funny how that works.)
If you want to tip every single wage worker you engage with in your life, hey, go for it. But the bottom line is, the new spread of tipping culture is directly increasing the profit margin of the capitalist, at both your expense and the expense of the worker.
posted by rhymedirective at 1:57 PM on May 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
Yes, this, 1000%. It is not a coincidence that the genre of article "tipping is getting out of control!" has surged with the increase in touchscreen POS systems replacing older non-customer-facing POS systems. These new POS systems have default tipping options that frankly, a) are spreading tipping to a wider range of transactions than ever before and b) are insane. I've seen them as high as 45%. Forty-five percent!
I am a socialist. I believe in class solidarity. My default tip up to $20 is $5, and 20% for any amount $20.01 and above. (Yes, I tip $5 on a $4 cup of coffee.) I do this because I have the money and it hopefully gives these workers more money in pocket so they don't have to work second jobs and can do other things with that time (like unionize, but I'm not pushing anyone to do that.)
I do not tip at these customer-facing POS systems in any context in which it is not culturally expected. Gift shops, merch tables at shows, supermarkets (I have seen this but curiously enough, only at the non-unionized supermarkets. Funny how that works.)
If you want to tip every single wage worker you engage with in your life, hey, go for it. But the bottom line is, the new spread of tipping culture is directly increasing the profit margin of the capitalist, at both your expense and the expense of the worker.
posted by rhymedirective at 1:57 PM on May 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
Capitalist billionaires reading these comments: *Ken Watanabe-Let Them Fight.gif*
posted by zardoz at 2:05 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 2:05 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
And yes, you should be tipping for takeout, it's often more work for the servers than if you are seated at the restaurant.
I'm having trouble reconciling this claim in my mind. Can someone try to explain how/why they hold that opinion?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:11 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm having trouble reconciling this claim in my mind. Can someone try to explain how/why they hold that opinion?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:11 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
The people working for minimum wage in the back are just as human and just as essential as the people working for minimum wage in the front. You, in this scenario, are the savage.
Do they share in the split of tips? I feel like surprisingly few comments are addressing the core thing that bugs me about all this convenient electronic tipping, which is that it feels very mysterious where it actually goes! Remember the DoorDash tipping scheme (where, as I understand, drivers wouldn’t actually get tips paid out until it was enough to “pay off” their guaranteed minimum wage)? I’m a pretty good tipper but the lack of transparency in these systems puts me off (and contributes to the feeling that it’s a “stealth” way to charge more).
posted by atoxyl at 2:18 PM on May 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Do they share in the split of tips? I feel like surprisingly few comments are addressing the core thing that bugs me about all this convenient electronic tipping, which is that it feels very mysterious where it actually goes! Remember the DoorDash tipping scheme (where, as I understand, drivers wouldn’t actually get tips paid out until it was enough to “pay off” their guaranteed minimum wage)? I’m a pretty good tipper but the lack of transparency in these systems puts me off (and contributes to the feeling that it’s a “stealth” way to charge more).
posted by atoxyl at 2:18 PM on May 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
then prompts 30%, 35% and 40% after that
The prompt screens have gotten really aggressive. If they don't have a 20% option I do a "custom tip" of 20%. Also places that deal with a lot of foreign tourists (like Miami Beach) often include a 20% tip in the bill, but they also have a blank line to add more tip on top of that, and they don't usually make it clear that they're doing that, and it makes the whole thing seem like a big scam.
I tip 20% in restaurants unless the bill is under $25.00, then they get $5.00. Anyone who delivers food to my house gets $10 at a minimum, even if what they're bringing is a $20 pizza. And I go to a weekly open mic at a bar where I always tip the bartender $10 on my $20 tab, because I can see most of the other musicians getting one Diet Coke or bottled water for the whole night and I bet they don't tip at all.
posted by Daily Alice at 2:24 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
The prompt screens have gotten really aggressive. If they don't have a 20% option I do a "custom tip" of 20%. Also places that deal with a lot of foreign tourists (like Miami Beach) often include a 20% tip in the bill, but they also have a blank line to add more tip on top of that, and they don't usually make it clear that they're doing that, and it makes the whole thing seem like a big scam.
I tip 20% in restaurants unless the bill is under $25.00, then they get $5.00. Anyone who delivers food to my house gets $10 at a minimum, even if what they're bringing is a $20 pizza. And I go to a weekly open mic at a bar where I always tip the bartender $10 on my $20 tab, because I can see most of the other musicians getting one Diet Coke or bottled water for the whole night and I bet they don't tip at all.
posted by Daily Alice at 2:24 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm tired of subsidizing businesses that would fail if the full price were evident and tired of being the backstop for a failed anti-trust regime (that allowed the business environment to degrade to this point from a number of angles).
posted by Slackermagee at 2:28 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 2:28 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Capitalist billionaires reading these comments: *Ken Watanabe-Let Them Fight.gif*
I have to think there are other people like me who find tipping sufficiently angsty and unpleasant that I mostly just stop doing things that tipping has expanded to.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:30 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
I have to think there are other people like me who find tipping sufficiently angsty and unpleasant that I mostly just stop doing things that tipping has expanded to.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:30 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm having trouble reconciling this claim in my mind. Can someone try to explain how/why they hold that opinion?
Yes!
I'll give you a personal example: Restaurant #1 - For take out orders, I had to get the boxes and give them to BOH, had to gather all the condiments. For some of those, we didn't have to go condiments, so you had to scrape the sauce from a regular ramekin to a to go one. Take all those ramekins to dishwasher. Carry all the food (on a tray) to the bar, gather to go plasticware and wait to bag up the order until the guest arrived. Once the guest arrives, show them each order to make sure it was correct.
For in house orders, I could on occasion get and place the drink order and food order, visit one time to see if everything was good and be done. We sometimes had food runners, somebody else would roll silver and if I was being particularly lazy, the bussers would fully bus the table.
Now, I never took advantage of this, but there were indeed times where the to go order was very time consuming. And, almost nobody tipped on take out.
(Also, at this particular restaurant, the bartenders took the to go orders, so yeah... definitely more work than opening a $3 bottle of beer, that people would tip a dollar for, but that's beside the point.)
At a different restaurant, BOH did the complete order. I literally did just have to hand it over when they walked in. At that place, almost everyone did tip.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 2:32 PM on May 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yes!
I'll give you a personal example: Restaurant #1 - For take out orders, I had to get the boxes and give them to BOH, had to gather all the condiments. For some of those, we didn't have to go condiments, so you had to scrape the sauce from a regular ramekin to a to go one. Take all those ramekins to dishwasher. Carry all the food (on a tray) to the bar, gather to go plasticware and wait to bag up the order until the guest arrived. Once the guest arrives, show them each order to make sure it was correct.
For in house orders, I could on occasion get and place the drink order and food order, visit one time to see if everything was good and be done. We sometimes had food runners, somebody else would roll silver and if I was being particularly lazy, the bussers would fully bus the table.
Now, I never took advantage of this, but there were indeed times where the to go order was very time consuming. And, almost nobody tipped on take out.
(Also, at this particular restaurant, the bartenders took the to go orders, so yeah... definitely more work than opening a $3 bottle of beer, that people would tip a dollar for, but that's beside the point.)
At a different restaurant, BOH did the complete order. I literally did just have to hand it over when they walked in. At that place, almost everyone did tip.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 2:32 PM on May 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
A relevant graph: https://masto.ai/@rbreich/110295356624782270
posted by wenestvedt at 2:35 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 2:35 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've wondered whether tipping in cash is a better deal for the recipient, but I don't see any way to find out.
Simple. Ask them. I have, and, as I suspected, cash is still king.
When we go out, we always make sure we carry a nicely mixed bit of cash with us, in order to put the appropriate tip together.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:44 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Simple. Ask them. I have, and, as I suspected, cash is still king.
When we go out, we always make sure we carry a nicely mixed bit of cash with us, in order to put the appropriate tip together.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:44 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is a good place to talk about my experiences being tipped while Doordashing. Doordash has two options for base pay: you can choose per session to either be paid a laughably low base amount for mileage, or "hourly," which sounds good at currently $11.25 an hour, except you only get that for time actually spent waiting for and delivering food. Usually around half of the time spent Doordashing is in driving back from a delivery, especially in semi-rural areas like Brunswick GA where many of your runs are going to be driving six or more miles away from civilization, which is less than minimum wage even in Georgia. Also: when driving hourly, you're only allowed to refuse one run; on the second the system will immediately end your session, meaning to keep Doordashing you have to wait for the next time the system will deem there's enough business to merit it, which may be in a time from either immediately to several hours or even the next day. Suffice to say, the hourly rate is so laughably bad that I never use it. All of the observations below are from "normal" doordashing, with the base pay decided by length of delivery.
I have had runs that have absolutely cost more in gas to deliver than I got from Doordash, before any consideration for my time. And then there's Jekyll Island, a place that Doordash will happily send me on runs to that are not only all at least nine miles just to get there, but that there's an $8 toll just to get on the wretched island, that Doordash doesn't acknowledge nor reimburse for. My only defense against that is to notice, from looking at the freaking route map before accepting it, that the destination is in this swath of faint green over here, and factor in that expense if it is. Also, there's a TIMER on the screen that asks if you want to accept a run, and if you dip below 70% acceptance rate you get penalized in which runs you will be offered. Think fast! Maybe doing arithmetic in your head!
Without tips, Doordash would not be feasible as a way of making money at all. With tips, it's barely okay. By current prices, my rule of thumb is, one dollar per mile given for the run's length in the app, which is a quick way to determine at least the gas involvement plus a basic amount of rembursement for the run. (It has to be a quick determination because, as noted above, tick tock.) Now, it is a good thing that we're usually shown the base pay+tip amount before accepting the run, since we can (to some extent) reject laughable runs. I have found that I have to train myself away from hitting the button immediately when a run is listed for $10 or more, since there is still a chance it'll be for a Jekyll run, or else be for an egregiously long drive.
I have noticed, sadly, that many times the runs that don't tip at all, or tip very small amounts, are those from the poorer neighboorhoods. I do not begrudge those orderers from trying to save money. But, alas, I have to support myself too, and so I must keep to my one-dollar-per-mile rule in any case. The solution would be for Doordash to both charge and pay a decent minimum, which is almost certain not to happen.
Also, I used to drive for Dominos, which assessed a deliery charge for runs that the driver didn't see. They did pay a little for mileage, but again it was laughably slight, and another case where the driver basically had to live off of tips. It amazes me when I see people who would never think about depriving on-foot waitpeople of a tip deciding not to tip for delivery, because between gas, car maintainence, insurance and the risks involved it seems like vehicle-based deliery should be tipped even more.
posted by JHarris at 2:46 PM on May 1, 2023 [29 favorites]
I have had runs that have absolutely cost more in gas to deliver than I got from Doordash, before any consideration for my time. And then there's Jekyll Island, a place that Doordash will happily send me on runs to that are not only all at least nine miles just to get there, but that there's an $8 toll just to get on the wretched island, that Doordash doesn't acknowledge nor reimburse for. My only defense against that is to notice, from looking at the freaking route map before accepting it, that the destination is in this swath of faint green over here, and factor in that expense if it is. Also, there's a TIMER on the screen that asks if you want to accept a run, and if you dip below 70% acceptance rate you get penalized in which runs you will be offered. Think fast! Maybe doing arithmetic in your head!
Without tips, Doordash would not be feasible as a way of making money at all. With tips, it's barely okay. By current prices, my rule of thumb is, one dollar per mile given for the run's length in the app, which is a quick way to determine at least the gas involvement plus a basic amount of rembursement for the run. (It has to be a quick determination because, as noted above, tick tock.) Now, it is a good thing that we're usually shown the base pay+tip amount before accepting the run, since we can (to some extent) reject laughable runs. I have found that I have to train myself away from hitting the button immediately when a run is listed for $10 or more, since there is still a chance it'll be for a Jekyll run, or else be for an egregiously long drive.
I have noticed, sadly, that many times the runs that don't tip at all, or tip very small amounts, are those from the poorer neighboorhoods. I do not begrudge those orderers from trying to save money. But, alas, I have to support myself too, and so I must keep to my one-dollar-per-mile rule in any case. The solution would be for Doordash to both charge and pay a decent minimum, which is almost certain not to happen.
Also, I used to drive for Dominos, which assessed a deliery charge for runs that the driver didn't see. They did pay a little for mileage, but again it was laughably slight, and another case where the driver basically had to live off of tips. It amazes me when I see people who would never think about depriving on-foot waitpeople of a tip deciding not to tip for delivery, because between gas, car maintainence, insurance and the risks involved it seems like vehicle-based deliery should be tipped even more.
posted by JHarris at 2:46 PM on May 1, 2023 [29 favorites]
This discussion has got me wondering. What are the laws that govern how employers handle tips? In other words, if they call it a tip, are they legally obligated to give it to the workers? Or maybe that's something that varies state to state?
I vaguely recall some delivery service saying that 100% of the tips went to the drivers, which was perhaps true in some very limited, legalistic sense. But they conveniently forgot to mention that they deducted an equal amount from the driver's hourly pay. IIRC they stopped this practice, but I'm not sure if that was because it was deemed illegal or just bad PR.
posted by tom_r at 2:53 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
I vaguely recall some delivery service saying that 100% of the tips went to the drivers, which was perhaps true in some very limited, legalistic sense. But they conveniently forgot to mention that they deducted an equal amount from the driver's hourly pay. IIRC they stopped this practice, but I'm not sure if that was because it was deemed illegal or just bad PR.
posted by tom_r at 2:53 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Tipping culture is just a way to subsidise assholes. Good people tip their servers, because they know otherwise the servers can't eat or pay rent, and they try to tip generously because they know other people won't. Assholes just don't tip, because they don't have to and don't give a fuck about anyone else.
End result: Folks who care about other people pay significantly more than the worst of us. And that is some bullshit system.
Waiters should get minimum wage, full stop. And minimum wage should be enough to live on! Anything else is an excuse to screw somebody.
And now that tipping is spreading we should consider why a barrista making minimum wage gets tipped, but everyone else making minimum wage doesn't. I've worked minimum wage and customer service, and never in a role that gets tipped, and I sure as hell resented the implication that I would tip other people who earned the same as me - we should be in the same boat, why do they deserve my money more than me?
Of course I tip servers and delivery people anyway because Capitalism is screwing those people (I'm not even in the US!), but it shouldn't be that way.
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:55 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
End result: Folks who care about other people pay significantly more than the worst of us. And that is some bullshit system.
Waiters should get minimum wage, full stop. And minimum wage should be enough to live on! Anything else is an excuse to screw somebody.
And now that tipping is spreading we should consider why a barrista making minimum wage gets tipped, but everyone else making minimum wage doesn't. I've worked minimum wage and customer service, and never in a role that gets tipped, and I sure as hell resented the implication that I would tip other people who earned the same as me - we should be in the same boat, why do they deserve my money more than me?
Of course I tip servers and delivery people anyway because Capitalism is screwing those people (I'm not even in the US!), but it shouldn't be that way.
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:55 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
More accurate title would be "Have landlords and property management companies commercial rents...and therefore business owners shitty business plans that rely on exploitative worker pay...in which tipping must increasingly make up the deficit............gotten out of control?"
posted by windbox at 3:02 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by windbox at 3:02 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I guess if you are morally opposed to tipping because it encourages the boss to pay poorly, a solution would be to go to the place and give the worker $20 to tell their boss that you won’t buy anything there until the wage situation is fixed.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:05 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:05 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
"tip your servers"
No! Charge more and pay them more, you greedy, parasitic capitalists. Stop externalizing your costs. And anyone who disagrees is not only wrong but actively part of the problem.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:12 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
No! Charge more and pay them more, you greedy, parasitic capitalists. Stop externalizing your costs. And anyone who disagrees is not only wrong but actively part of the problem.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:12 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
I find this whole discussion both enlightening and disappointing. Back when I was a broke as hell state park worker, I went to a Sonic almost every day for lunch. Mainly because the park I worked in didn't have any refrigeration available so it was PB&J for lunch and a lukewarm Coke or Sonic.
After a few weeks of going to said Sonic, I noticed that when I pulled up, at least 2 or more carhops would appear out of nowhere. Once I even noticed two carhops playfully wrestling over the tray to bring my order. So I asked, "What's up with that?" And the gal said, "Sweetie, you're the only customer we have that tips. We have a rotation for who gets to bring your dinner because it's not fair if the same person gets all those tips."
Mind you, I was also making minimum wage and my tips were always roughly 25% because I suck at math. Sometimes, I barely had enough money to cover my burger and coke and would opt for a water so I'd have enough money left over for a tip. I worked in food service and remember how necessary tips were. So I have always, always tipped any person who touches my food. I also tip people who make my life easier by bringing things to me, or cutting my hair, or cleaning for me. Honestly, the only thing I hate about traditional tipping culture is that I frequently forget to have cash money on me so I have to make a special trip to the ATM to get the tip money for any outings that will involve the traditional cash tips.
Do I think the workers and customers should unite and bring down the assholes in charge who continue to pay be less than a livable wage and expect us to make up for that? Yes. Do I think that will ever happen? No. Will I continue to tip 30% or more to compensate because I can now afford to? Hell yes.
Do I think people born and raised in the United States, who have the means to tip and refuse to do so are not nice people? Yuuuup. And I will not change my mind.
posted by teleri025 at 3:15 PM on May 1, 2023 [33 favorites]
After a few weeks of going to said Sonic, I noticed that when I pulled up, at least 2 or more carhops would appear out of nowhere. Once I even noticed two carhops playfully wrestling over the tray to bring my order. So I asked, "What's up with that?" And the gal said, "Sweetie, you're the only customer we have that tips. We have a rotation for who gets to bring your dinner because it's not fair if the same person gets all those tips."
Mind you, I was also making minimum wage and my tips were always roughly 25% because I suck at math. Sometimes, I barely had enough money to cover my burger and coke and would opt for a water so I'd have enough money left over for a tip. I worked in food service and remember how necessary tips were. So I have always, always tipped any person who touches my food. I also tip people who make my life easier by bringing things to me, or cutting my hair, or cleaning for me. Honestly, the only thing I hate about traditional tipping culture is that I frequently forget to have cash money on me so I have to make a special trip to the ATM to get the tip money for any outings that will involve the traditional cash tips.
Do I think the workers and customers should unite and bring down the assholes in charge who continue to pay be less than a livable wage and expect us to make up for that? Yes. Do I think that will ever happen? No. Will I continue to tip 30% or more to compensate because I can now afford to? Hell yes.
Do I think people born and raised in the United States, who have the means to tip and refuse to do so are not nice people? Yuuuup. And I will not change my mind.
posted by teleri025 at 3:15 PM on May 1, 2023 [33 favorites]
My wife and I both worked bar and restaurant for decades. We will both continue to tip until the day we die. And if we leave you only 10%, be assured we probably won't be back...
posted by jim in austin at 3:20 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 3:20 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
What are the laws that govern how employers handle tips?
It does vary from state to state, in general, employees are protected by the minimum wage laws. Federal is $7.25/hr and in my state (Massachusetts) it is $15/hr.
However certain states (such as Mass) allow employers to take a tip credit, which means they are allowed to use the employee's tips towards their minimum wage obligations.
So if a worker doesn't make enough in tips during a workweek to earn the minimum wage, the employer has to pay the difference.
There are also laws regarding tip pooling, again this differs from state to state, in MA, only wait staff, service employees, and service bartenders can be in the pool and by law these tips cannot go to owners or managers.
Things get murkier when you add the infamous "service charge" though. When a restaurant adds a service charge, again, by federal law, they are NOT required to share this with employees. Some states have passed laws against this, as it can be very deceptive, so in Mass, "service charges" are treated as tips and belong to the employees.
Tl;dr employers can count and track the tips their employees receive but taking any of it is illegal. (What happens under the table is another matter)
posted by jeremias at 3:22 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
It does vary from state to state, in general, employees are protected by the minimum wage laws. Federal is $7.25/hr and in my state (Massachusetts) it is $15/hr.
However certain states (such as Mass) allow employers to take a tip credit, which means they are allowed to use the employee's tips towards their minimum wage obligations.
So if a worker doesn't make enough in tips during a workweek to earn the minimum wage, the employer has to pay the difference.
There are also laws regarding tip pooling, again this differs from state to state, in MA, only wait staff, service employees, and service bartenders can be in the pool and by law these tips cannot go to owners or managers.
Things get murkier when you add the infamous "service charge" though. When a restaurant adds a service charge, again, by federal law, they are NOT required to share this with employees. Some states have passed laws against this, as it can be very deceptive, so in Mass, "service charges" are treated as tips and belong to the employees.
Tl;dr employers can count and track the tips their employees receive but taking any of it is illegal. (What happens under the table is another matter)
posted by jeremias at 3:22 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
I hate, hate, hate tipping. And I'm always surprised that that when I talk about this with friends their assumption its because I'd rather not pay service workers. Gah! Whoever said Capitalism is great at pitting workers against each other has it right. I'm all for paying service workers triple what they make now, but here's what tipping adds to the equation:
(1) Price uncertainty. Mentally I try to add 50% to menu prices when budgeting a meal but that's difficult, I'm bad at it and emotionally I'm always surprised when the bill lands.
(2) Stress over inadequate knowledge of social norms. There are seemingly dozens of job categories that all require different tipping strategies. Keeping them straight is like an additional mental tax to participating in the service economy.
(3) Inequality among the staff. On the one hand I get tipping in part compensates for very busy shifts. More tables, more orders, higher wage. But a lot of people get stuck working shitty lunch shifts and Max & Irma's making barely minimum wake thanks to few tables and the fact no one orders apps, desserts or beer during their lunch at a chain burger joint by the mall. Even if I wasn't busy, cleaning, marrying condiments and rolling silverware isn't my idea of fun and the shift probably felt 10x longer since I wasn't as busy.
(4) Reinforcing other types of inequality. I had a friend who stayed in the industry and wound up in a downtown wine bar. She made six figures in 2008 dollars, with taking time off during slow periods. Obviously a lot work and passion went into working her way up to a restaurant with such a high tab, but I'll also say she and all her coworkers had a few things in common with regard to their background and appearance.
(5) Increases potential for conflict. You don't get into managing a bar if you can't handle conflict but why increase the potential?
(6) I don't know where the tips are going. There's a lot more obscurity in tips. Management taking part of tips is probably rare but it still sucks.
(7) Encourages deceptive advertising. I've started trying to tune out prices on chain restaurant commercials because I feel like they have no basis in reality.
(8) Discourages worker action. I don't know for sure, but I feel like if there was greater wage transerancy and less inequality of income, it'd be easier for food service workers to organize.
(9) Does jack to reward better service. I suspect charisma and beauty have more to do with variance in tip size. I'll say, in my own anecdotal evidence, I was tipped more when people felt sorry for me. During my first week I was dogshit but people were dropping cash because it was so apparent I was strugglebussing.
All in all, tipping makes going getting food feel like buying a used car, there's a lot of wiggle room and uncertainty in what the final bill is going to be and those are feelings I hate. Not surprisingly, I've purchased 3/5 of my vehicles from Carvana/CarMax.
Meanwhile, as tip creep has worked its way into (1) my closest bakery (2) the plant guy at the farmer's market (3) A local gift shop, I've adopted a strategy of tipping 30% then leaving a 1 Star review on Google due to the management paying poverty wages and forcing the workers to depend on a capricious public to make rent.
posted by midmarch snowman at 3:38 PM on May 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
(1) Price uncertainty. Mentally I try to add 50% to menu prices when budgeting a meal but that's difficult, I'm bad at it and emotionally I'm always surprised when the bill lands.
(2) Stress over inadequate knowledge of social norms. There are seemingly dozens of job categories that all require different tipping strategies. Keeping them straight is like an additional mental tax to participating in the service economy.
(3) Inequality among the staff. On the one hand I get tipping in part compensates for very busy shifts. More tables, more orders, higher wage. But a lot of people get stuck working shitty lunch shifts and Max & Irma's making barely minimum wake thanks to few tables and the fact no one orders apps, desserts or beer during their lunch at a chain burger joint by the mall. Even if I wasn't busy, cleaning, marrying condiments and rolling silverware isn't my idea of fun and the shift probably felt 10x longer since I wasn't as busy.
(4) Reinforcing other types of inequality. I had a friend who stayed in the industry and wound up in a downtown wine bar. She made six figures in 2008 dollars, with taking time off during slow periods. Obviously a lot work and passion went into working her way up to a restaurant with such a high tab, but I'll also say she and all her coworkers had a few things in common with regard to their background and appearance.
(5) Increases potential for conflict. You don't get into managing a bar if you can't handle conflict but why increase the potential?
(6) I don't know where the tips are going. There's a lot more obscurity in tips. Management taking part of tips is probably rare but it still sucks.
(7) Encourages deceptive advertising. I've started trying to tune out prices on chain restaurant commercials because I feel like they have no basis in reality.
(8) Discourages worker action. I don't know for sure, but I feel like if there was greater wage transerancy and less inequality of income, it'd be easier for food service workers to organize.
(9) Does jack to reward better service. I suspect charisma and beauty have more to do with variance in tip size. I'll say, in my own anecdotal evidence, I was tipped more when people felt sorry for me. During my first week I was dogshit but people were dropping cash because it was so apparent I was strugglebussing.
All in all, tipping makes going getting food feel like buying a used car, there's a lot of wiggle room and uncertainty in what the final bill is going to be and those are feelings I hate. Not surprisingly, I've purchased 3/5 of my vehicles from Carvana/CarMax.
Meanwhile, as tip creep has worked its way into (1) my closest bakery (2) the plant guy at the farmer's market (3) A local gift shop, I've adopted a strategy of tipping 30% then leaving a 1 Star review on Google due to the management paying poverty wages and forcing the workers to depend on a capricious public to make rent.
posted by midmarch snowman at 3:38 PM on May 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
For the record, I guess, I was in (west) LA at my family's for a wedding, etc and paid for mani/pedi's for me and my mom, but nothing fancy. It was sanitary and pleasant (and we walked from my parents house), and the cost was $40/each. I was so shocked, I cash tipped each manicurist $20 on top bc I expected to spend so much more on the base price anyway.
I'm super pro tip for tip type work!
posted by atomicstone at 3:47 PM on May 1, 2023
I'm super pro tip for tip type work!
posted by atomicstone at 3:47 PM on May 1, 2023
have these classist, baiting news headlines have gotten out of control? it used to be the NYTimes style page, now the insults have spread far and wide
posted by eustatic at 4:01 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 4:01 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you think tipping culture is out of control, wait till you hear about landlords!
posted by splitpeasoup at 4:02 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 4:02 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
I almost always tip when prompted. Then I simply never return to those places.
posted by dances with hamsters at 4:24 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by dances with hamsters at 4:24 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
However certain states (such as Mass) allow employers to take a tip credit, which means they are allowed to use the employee's tips towards their minimum wage obligations.
So if a worker doesn't make enough in tips during a workweek to earn the minimum wage, the employer has to pay the difference.
The mathematics of this deserve some thought. Basically, if you're in such a state, if an employee's tips doesn't add up to meet minimum wage, the employer is on the hook for the difference. Thus, up to that amount, your tips effectively go to the employer and not the employee.
Sometimes I think many of the various issues that contribute to the partisan paralysis that affects the US legislature is really a cover to prevent gross injustices like this one from ever being fixed.
posted by JHarris at 4:26 PM on May 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
So if a worker doesn't make enough in tips during a workweek to earn the minimum wage, the employer has to pay the difference.
The mathematics of this deserve some thought. Basically, if you're in such a state, if an employee's tips doesn't add up to meet minimum wage, the employer is on the hook for the difference. Thus, up to that amount, your tips effectively go to the employer and not the employee.
Sometimes I think many of the various issues that contribute to the partisan paralysis that affects the US legislature is really a cover to prevent gross injustices like this one from ever being fixed.
posted by JHarris at 4:26 PM on May 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
I always tip restaurant staff - at least 20% for eat in and 10% for takeout - because I worked in tip-based jobs from 13 until I left home for university; paperboy (that dates me!), busboy, server, waitron, bellhop, and asst. lifeguard in charge of renting chairs, umbrellas, rafts and cleaning the beach at quitting time. In all these jobs I was paid less than minimum wage which is allowed by the law. Tips sometimes were enough to get up to minimum wage but not dependably.
I always tip cash because, well, I really appreciated it. IME, tips by cc are taxed, pooled, and tithed by management or sometimes adjusted by management so net wages are no more than some arbitrary (usually minimum) wage. So I try to be generous to restaurant and hotel/motel staff but for the rest, no tips, and that includes fast food. I worked in a Hardie’s for a few weeks near the beach at minimum wage and they had a tip jar. The manager took those; neither I nor any of my co-workers saw a dime.
It was an abusive system then and it’s worse now. Unless you’re working in some joint with high prices and good seating numbers, you’re not going to make even minimum wage, and often less. I know because both my sons followed the same track as teenagers. So, tip your server - $20 in the hand can really be helpful to them. Have you checked out rents around here recently? Sheesh!
posted by sudogeek at 4:29 PM on May 1, 2023
I always tip cash because, well, I really appreciated it. IME, tips by cc are taxed, pooled, and tithed by management or sometimes adjusted by management so net wages are no more than some arbitrary (usually minimum) wage. So I try to be generous to restaurant and hotel/motel staff but for the rest, no tips, and that includes fast food. I worked in a Hardie’s for a few weeks near the beach at minimum wage and they had a tip jar. The manager took those; neither I nor any of my co-workers saw a dime.
It was an abusive system then and it’s worse now. Unless you’re working in some joint with high prices and good seating numbers, you’re not going to make even minimum wage, and often less. I know because both my sons followed the same track as teenagers. So, tip your server - $20 in the hand can really be helpful to them. Have you checked out rents around here recently? Sheesh!
posted by sudogeek at 4:29 PM on May 1, 2023
And now that tipping is spreading we should consider why a barrista making minimum wage gets tipped, but everyone else making minimum wage doesn't.
because they're making a DIFFERENT minimum wage. in pa, minimum for a job classified as non-tipped is $7.25. minimum for a job classified as tipped is $2.83.
posted by Clowder of bats at 4:38 PM on May 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
because they're making a DIFFERENT minimum wage. in pa, minimum for a job classified as non-tipped is $7.25. minimum for a job classified as tipped is $2.83.
posted by Clowder of bats at 4:38 PM on May 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Regardless of what your practice is anywhere else, NEVER tip in an Indian restaurant unless you've explicitly confirmed with your waitstaff that the owners don't keep the tips. SMH one of the Indian restaurants I worked at in Delaware even kept the money from the donation box they set out ostensibly for a big natural disaster in India that had just occurred. It sucks because you can't even report these assholes to the labor board or whatever without risking setting ICE on the workers, and of course you should never risk setting ICE on the workers.
On the plus side, my friends and I love going to Indian restaurants now because the prices are literally 20% cheaper.
posted by MiraK at 4:45 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the plus side, my friends and I love going to Indian restaurants now because the prices are literally 20% cheaper.
posted by MiraK at 4:45 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: The last bat family meal we had at a restaurant, I did some batmath after the fact, and the total amount I paid was something like 155% of the menu price.
How about we just have accurate prices and stop throwing in all these extra bat fees?
posted by Windopaene at 4:50 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
How about we just have accurate prices and stop throwing in all these extra bat fees?
posted by Windopaene at 4:50 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lately, I do feel bamboozled by the tipping expectation. (And, yes, you should look up the tipped wage in your area before having feelings about this. It is still $2.13 in Texas just like it was when I waited tables there in 1995. I digress…) I was always a good tipper. When cards became more common and you could “add a tip,” I often would put 0 and leave cash. Because cash does go home with servers. And can avoid taxes. (Remember, $2.13/hr.) But now nobody wants cash and fuck you to the places that forbid cash tips. I can’t help but think the tips being put into the POS are not going in full to the staff. But they definitely are getting fully taxed if they are going to the staff and that sucks. I’d love to know there’s a mechanism in place that ensures it is equitably distributed to staff but you can be assured that it’s skimmed at the very least.
posted by amanda at 4:56 PM on May 1, 2023
posted by amanda at 4:56 PM on May 1, 2023
“Paying proles, are we doing it too much?”
posted by Artw at 5:04 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:04 PM on May 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
I was astonished a while back - before COVID existed - when I bought some not-cheap paleoart merchandise from a website that sold mugs, tshirts, bags, and it asked if I wanted to tip on the total amount of my purchase.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:14 PM on May 1, 2023
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:14 PM on May 1, 2023
It's not "tipping culture" that's out of control, it's not-paying-people-what-they-deserve culture that's made it so everybody is trying to get the better of everyone else, while the people who are getting rich off of what we all do manage to stay out of the fray.
If we made it illegal (as in an fineable/imprisonable offense) for the owner/ceo/etc. of a given business to take home more than a particular multiple of their lowest-paid employee's monthly wages (including all tips), I think we'd see some real changes in pay for service workers, and almost definitely some changes in the paltry staffing levels we see across the service industry. If the boss can't sock away all the profits in fancy vacations and luxury cars, they have to either pay their employees more or hire more of them. None of this ridiculous false belt tightening where CEOs stay well-paid, while their businesses go understaffed and their remaining employees have to work multiple part-time jobs just to make ends meet.
posted by Strange Interlude at 5:15 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
If we made it illegal (as in an fineable/imprisonable offense) for the owner/ceo/etc. of a given business to take home more than a particular multiple of their lowest-paid employee's monthly wages (including all tips), I think we'd see some real changes in pay for service workers, and almost definitely some changes in the paltry staffing levels we see across the service industry. If the boss can't sock away all the profits in fancy vacations and luxury cars, they have to either pay their employees more or hire more of them. None of this ridiculous false belt tightening where CEOs stay well-paid, while their businesses go understaffed and their remaining employees have to work multiple part-time jobs just to make ends meet.
posted by Strange Interlude at 5:15 PM on May 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
midmarch snowman:
Inequality among the staff. On the one hand I get tipping in part compensates for very busy shifts. More tables, more orders, higher wage. But a lot of people get stuck working shitty lunch shifts
This is one I have always been super hesitant to talk about in any tipping post that comes up on the blue. In fact, I am surprised at how civil this one has been compared to others.
However....
I loved being tipped. I made WAY more money than if I was only getting an hourly rate. Like 2-3 times, minimum, on any shift. Why? Because I cared for my guests. I sympathized and empathized with them. I anticipated their needs. There was absolutely no way the restaurants would compensate like that.
As to "shitty lunch shifts", those were my favorite! It meant I got to work the same hours as my partner and the whole family (incl. kids) could spend time together. It takes a while (which, admittedly, some people wouldn't have), but you can develop regulars which give you a relatively predictable idea of what you will go home with each day.
Again, this was me as a bartender doing banker's hours. These regulars weren't drinking. They just knew they would get good food and great service with minimal work on their part.
I understand why tipping is problematic. It's just... problematic in a different way than other ways of capitalism?
(Oh, and amanda? I'm 100% convinced that 2.13/hr is just to ensure IRS gets their tax money. 90% of the people I know who were making that wage would not see a check after the end of January.)
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:18 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Inequality among the staff. On the one hand I get tipping in part compensates for very busy shifts. More tables, more orders, higher wage. But a lot of people get stuck working shitty lunch shifts
This is one I have always been super hesitant to talk about in any tipping post that comes up on the blue. In fact, I am surprised at how civil this one has been compared to others.
However....
I loved being tipped. I made WAY more money than if I was only getting an hourly rate. Like 2-3 times, minimum, on any shift. Why? Because I cared for my guests. I sympathized and empathized with them. I anticipated their needs. There was absolutely no way the restaurants would compensate like that.
As to "shitty lunch shifts", those were my favorite! It meant I got to work the same hours as my partner and the whole family (incl. kids) could spend time together. It takes a while (which, admittedly, some people wouldn't have), but you can develop regulars which give you a relatively predictable idea of what you will go home with each day.
Again, this was me as a bartender doing banker's hours. These regulars weren't drinking. They just knew they would get good food and great service with minimal work on their part.
I understand why tipping is problematic. It's just... problematic in a different way than other ways of capitalism?
(Oh, and amanda? I'm 100% convinced that 2.13/hr is just to ensure IRS gets their tax money. 90% of the people I know who were making that wage would not see a check after the end of January.)
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:18 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
ME, tips by cc are taxed, pooled, and tithed by management or sometimes adjusted by management so net wages are no more than some arbitrary (usually minimum) wage.
It's definitely important to separate the letter of the law from actual practice, but when it comes to credit card versus cash, the rules depend on the state.
If the employer has to pay the credit card company a processing fee, some states allow the employer to deduct the employee's "share" of the fee. For example, if the credit card company charges a 3% fee, the employer is allowed to reduce the employee's tip by 3% as well.
In MA, employers are specifically prohibited from doing this, but for me, I try to tip in cash as much as possible, it reduces the chance of management shenanigans is my working theory.
posted by jeremias at 5:23 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's definitely important to separate the letter of the law from actual practice, but when it comes to credit card versus cash, the rules depend on the state.
If the employer has to pay the credit card company a processing fee, some states allow the employer to deduct the employee's "share" of the fee. For example, if the credit card company charges a 3% fee, the employer is allowed to reduce the employee's tip by 3% as well.
In MA, employers are specifically prohibited from doing this, but for me, I try to tip in cash as much as possible, it reduces the chance of management shenanigans is my working theory.
posted by jeremias at 5:23 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Paying proles, are we doing it too much?
That’s not the argument here.
Random salary based on how busy the place is and how speedy clients are is not good for employees. If the employers need to offer compensation for crazy busy shifts (or redistribute the load) to get staff that’s between them and the staff.
As a client, what I want is a fixed and fair price allowing a decent salary for employees and then I can make my choices . I do not want the responsibility of choosing how much extra I should pay so that your employees have a decent wage, that’s on the employer.
Also taxes should be included in price by law.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:24 PM on May 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
That’s not the argument here.
Random salary based on how busy the place is and how speedy clients are is not good for employees. If the employers need to offer compensation for crazy busy shifts (or redistribute the load) to get staff that’s between them and the staff.
As a client, what I want is a fixed and fair price allowing a decent salary for employees and then I can make my choices . I do not want the responsibility of choosing how much extra I should pay so that your employees have a decent wage, that’s on the employer.
Also taxes should be included in price by law.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:24 PM on May 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
The whole wage/tip thing is super dependent on which state/country people are talking about. Oregon and Washington don't have a tipped wage and also have a different minimum wage depending on where you are. The current minimum wage in the Portland metro area is $14.75, so if you're working some place that has a high turn over or expensive average tab, it could be $20-$25/hr. or more.
The real sin is using the Federal minimum wage combined with a tipped wage. That's how you get to a <$3 minimum wage and it's a crime.
posted by fiercekitten at 5:30 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
The real sin is using the Federal minimum wage combined with a tipped wage. That's how you get to a <$3 minimum wage and it's a crime.
posted by fiercekitten at 5:30 PM on May 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
As someone living in a country where tipping is Not Done, and by law prices must include taxes, I am SO GLAD that I don't have to deal with this dysfunctional rubbish.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 5:46 PM on May 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by HiroProtagonist at 5:46 PM on May 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
Paying proles, are we doing it too much?
That’s not the argument here.
I’ve seen a bunch of these lately (random example: CNN) and IMHO its some kind of anti-worker manufacturing consent shit inline with the previous “people don’t want to work any more” BS.
posted by Artw at 5:53 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
That’s not the argument here.
I’ve seen a bunch of these lately (random example: CNN) and IMHO its some kind of anti-worker manufacturing consent shit inline with the previous “people don’t want to work any more” BS.
posted by Artw at 5:53 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
There are two issue here that seem to be conflated. Typical tip-oriented services such as waitstaff and tips solicited by non-traditional tip situations (such as retail).
I loved being tipped. I made WAY more money than if I was only getting an hourly rate. Like 2-3 times, minimum, on any shift. Why? Because I cared for my guests. I sympathized and empathized with them. I anticipated their needs. There was absolutely no way the restaurants would compensate like that.
And this is the problem I have with that take. I'm going to tell you the truth that many of us won't feel comfortable telling you, but thankfully, that part of my brain is broken. Not all of your customers are neurotypical or likely to even notice. I, for example, always tip waiters ~20%. it's no different in my mind than any other tax or service fee. I'm not your boss; I'm not there to evaluate or reward you based on your performance. But, if I feel you're sucking up to me for money, I'm going to be less inclined to feel comfortable returning to the restaurant. I simply expect you to do your job and I accept that social norms require me to respond in a certain way.
posted by dances with hamsters at 6:12 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
I loved being tipped. I made WAY more money than if I was only getting an hourly rate. Like 2-3 times, minimum, on any shift. Why? Because I cared for my guests. I sympathized and empathized with them. I anticipated their needs. There was absolutely no way the restaurants would compensate like that.
And this is the problem I have with that take. I'm going to tell you the truth that many of us won't feel comfortable telling you, but thankfully, that part of my brain is broken. Not all of your customers are neurotypical or likely to even notice. I, for example, always tip waiters ~20%. it's no different in my mind than any other tax or service fee. I'm not your boss; I'm not there to evaluate or reward you based on your performance. But, if I feel you're sucking up to me for money, I'm going to be less inclined to feel comfortable returning to the restaurant. I simply expect you to do your job and I accept that social norms require me to respond in a certain way.
posted by dances with hamsters at 6:12 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
This is one of those conversations Metafilter does poorly.
If you live in the UK or Australia congratulations, you don’t have to deal with this in a meaningful way and can probably leave it alone, you have some pretense of a social safety net.
Anyone in the US who doesn’t tip food service workers outside jurisdictions/restaurants where it’s explicitly not required is an enemy of the hourly class, and you have my permission to regard them as such.
If you don’t agree with their tipping system, don’t go back, and push for legislation that gets rid of this bullshit.
NEVER tip in an Indian restaurant unless you've explicitly confirmed with your waitstaff that the owners don't keep the tips
JFC, I mean what are you even doing with this.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:13 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
If you live in the UK or Australia congratulations, you don’t have to deal with this in a meaningful way and can probably leave it alone, you have some pretense of a social safety net.
Anyone in the US who doesn’t tip food service workers outside jurisdictions/restaurants where it’s explicitly not required is an enemy of the hourly class, and you have my permission to regard them as such.
If you don’t agree with their tipping system, don’t go back, and push for legislation that gets rid of this bullshit.
NEVER tip in an Indian restaurant unless you've explicitly confirmed with your waitstaff that the owners don't keep the tips
JFC, I mean what are you even doing with this.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:13 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
An addendum to my Doortipping report from above: I turned on Doordashing today, and in five minutes got offered three runs that failed to meet even my-one-dollar-a mile mininum. One of them had no tip at all, offering the base of $2.25 for probably having to wait at the restaurant for the then over six miles of driving, and not counting the miles back. I turned Doordash off for the day; Monday evenings are almost always bad for it.
posted by JHarris at 6:14 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 6:14 PM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is one of those conversationsMetafilter does poorly.
I don't think that's the case, I think we're largely on the same page but it's sometimes easy to get the wrong idea when you look too hard at comments.
posted by JHarris at 6:15 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't think that's the case, I think we're largely on the same page but it's sometimes easy to get the wrong idea when you look too hard at comments.
posted by JHarris at 6:15 PM on May 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
because they're making a DIFFERENT minimum wage. in pa, minimum for a job classified as non-tipped is $7.25. minimum for a job classified as tipped is $2.83.
There aren’t many states where baristas are classified as a tipped wage. Some states don’t even have a tipped wage.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:38 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
There aren’t many states where baristas are classified as a tipped wage. Some states don’t even have a tipped wage.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:38 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
SF Chronicle: S.F. Marriott Hotel illegally kept $9 million in workers’ tips, judge says
The workers’ lawyer, Shannon Liss-Riordan, said this was the first case to go to trial since a state appeals court ruled in 2019, in another San Francisco case, that service charges belonged to the employees under California law if they were reasonably viewed as tips by the customers who paid them.
Sounds like this may be the first of many similar suits. Good. Soak them for everything they can. Wage theft is vastly underprosecuted for its volume & frequency in this country, compared to its counterparts.
posted by CrystalDave at 6:49 PM on May 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
The workers’ lawyer, Shannon Liss-Riordan, said this was the first case to go to trial since a state appeals court ruled in 2019, in another San Francisco case, that service charges belonged to the employees under California law if they were reasonably viewed as tips by the customers who paid them.
Sounds like this may be the first of many similar suits. Good. Soak them for everything they can. Wage theft is vastly underprosecuted for its volume & frequency in this country, compared to its counterparts.
posted by CrystalDave at 6:49 PM on May 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
me:
I loved being tipped. I made WAY more money than if I was only getting an hourly rate. Like 2-3 times, minimum, on any shift. Why? Because I cared for my guests. I sympathized and empathized with them. I anticipated their needs. There was absolutely no way the restaurants would compensate like that.
dances with hamsters
And this is the problem I have with that take. I'm going to tell you the truth that many of us won't feel comfortable telling you, but thankfully, that part of my brain is broken. Not all of your customers are neurotypical or likely to even notice. I, for example, always tip waiters ~20%. it's no different in my mind than any other tax or service fee. I'm not your boss; I'm not there to evaluate or reward you based on your performance. But, if I feel you're sucking up to me for money, I'm going to be less inclined to feel comfortable returning to the restaurant. I simply expect you to do your job and I accept that social norms require me to respond in a certain way.
I 100% hear you on this. I am struggling to understand where I fall on the neurodivergence/"neurotypical" scale (whatever neurotypical really means. We all are weird in our own right.) And that is me working for a hospital! I can't even schedule a therapy appointment for pay. I am supposed to use EAP. *shakes head*
I worked with people who were actually sucking up to the guests, but that is NOT what I did. I just gave the guests the best experience I could. And, that is why they would come back.
I get your point and I agree that my employer should have paid me better. Given the number of options people had for lunch, I stood out by giving better customer service (getting them in and out in the hour they had, knowing what they were drinking, making sure they had their bill in time to get back to work, etc.)
Again, it's crappy. Just like all jobs can crap on the lower echelon. I would absolutely love to see tipping go away. But, it's really the only way I could have lived for about 1/3 of my life because I was absolutely committed to taking care of my guests.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:01 PM on May 1, 2023
I loved being tipped. I made WAY more money than if I was only getting an hourly rate. Like 2-3 times, minimum, on any shift. Why? Because I cared for my guests. I sympathized and empathized with them. I anticipated their needs. There was absolutely no way the restaurants would compensate like that.
dances with hamsters
And this is the problem I have with that take. I'm going to tell you the truth that many of us won't feel comfortable telling you, but thankfully, that part of my brain is broken. Not all of your customers are neurotypical or likely to even notice. I, for example, always tip waiters ~20%. it's no different in my mind than any other tax or service fee. I'm not your boss; I'm not there to evaluate or reward you based on your performance. But, if I feel you're sucking up to me for money, I'm going to be less inclined to feel comfortable returning to the restaurant. I simply expect you to do your job and I accept that social norms require me to respond in a certain way.
I 100% hear you on this. I am struggling to understand where I fall on the neurodivergence/"neurotypical" scale (whatever neurotypical really means. We all are weird in our own right.) And that is me working for a hospital! I can't even schedule a therapy appointment for pay. I am supposed to use EAP. *shakes head*
I worked with people who were actually sucking up to the guests, but that is NOT what I did. I just gave the guests the best experience I could. And, that is why they would come back.
I get your point and I agree that my employer should have paid me better. Given the number of options people had for lunch, I stood out by giving better customer service (getting them in and out in the hour they had, knowing what they were drinking, making sure they had their bill in time to get back to work, etc.)
Again, it's crappy. Just like all jobs can crap on the lower echelon. I would absolutely love to see tipping go away. But, it's really the only way I could have lived for about 1/3 of my life because I was absolutely committed to taking care of my guests.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:01 PM on May 1, 2023
> > NEVER tip in an Indian restaurant unless you've explicitly confirmed with your waitstaff that the owners don't keep the tips
> JFC, I mean what are you even doing with this.
What's the problem here? Was my meaning unclear?
The owners steal the tips. They get away with it because the waitstaff they employ are usually lacking work visas or are straight up illegal immigrants. Since realizing that this is a very common practice (from working at Indian restaurants in multiple states myself), I ALWAYS ask waitstaff at Indian restaurants whether they (the waiters) get to keep the tips. I've never once heard a yes. So I've never had to tip at an Indian restaurant yet.
(It sucks for the waitstaff, of course, but there's no way I can fix their issue for them. Reporting their employer would set ICE on the workers which puts their lives in jeopardy. Their concerns are better addressed via completely other channels such as volunteering at your local refugee and immigrant service center or joining in local activism against ICE.)
But re: tipping, I strongly suggest that everyone here start making similar enquiries of your waitstaff at Indian restaurants (and possibly other cuisines too, I wouldn't know!) and stop tipping unless the server confirms that the tips don't go to the owners.
Hope that clears it up!
posted by MiraK at 7:05 PM on May 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
> JFC, I mean what are you even doing with this.
What's the problem here? Was my meaning unclear?
The owners steal the tips. They get away with it because the waitstaff they employ are usually lacking work visas or are straight up illegal immigrants. Since realizing that this is a very common practice (from working at Indian restaurants in multiple states myself), I ALWAYS ask waitstaff at Indian restaurants whether they (the waiters) get to keep the tips. I've never once heard a yes. So I've never had to tip at an Indian restaurant yet.
(It sucks for the waitstaff, of course, but there's no way I can fix their issue for them. Reporting their employer would set ICE on the workers which puts their lives in jeopardy. Their concerns are better addressed via completely other channels such as volunteering at your local refugee and immigrant service center or joining in local activism against ICE.)
But re: tipping, I strongly suggest that everyone here start making similar enquiries of your waitstaff at Indian restaurants (and possibly other cuisines too, I wouldn't know!) and stop tipping unless the server confirms that the tips don't go to the owners.
Hope that clears it up!
posted by MiraK at 7:05 PM on May 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've been horrified to see tip jars creeping in in Australia. In 2018 (before COVID) I saw a tip jar at a cinema candy bar - collecting cash tips for handing over a packet of salted nuts and ringing it up on the cash register.
Context: minimum wage for an adult is Australian $21.38 per hour (which converts to 14.18 US dollars, but people are paying their rent/groceries in Australian dollars, so...)
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 7:15 PM on May 1, 2023
Context: minimum wage for an adult is Australian $21.38 per hour (which converts to 14.18 US dollars, but people are paying their rent/groceries in Australian dollars, so...)
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 7:15 PM on May 1, 2023
My philosophy on tipping is that it's a cheap way to feel both rich and generous. Totally worth it for the endorphin hit. We've occasionally given real money to scholarship funds etc. but honestly you get so much more emotional mileage out of $2 tips.
This is insight into a different world for me. I'm currently unemployed, and all bar my last job were (UK) minimum wage, or so close to it as to make no DIFFERENCE. Tips are not and never have been a way to feel rich for me, just a way to feel poor and inadequate. Like, shit is expensive already, and being presented with a POS UI that expects a tip, forcing me to type "0" into a custom field or whatever, on a transaction that is probably financially ill-advised anyway, that sure doesn't make me feel rich. Nor does eating the cost of the extra 20% or whatever- it's not always clear that the person it's going to (assuming it even goes to them, and doesn't just get taken by the business owners) needs it more than I do, and the pennies kinda matter, make a difference to me.
(None of my jobs have ever been ones where you'd be tipped, though several of them have been directly customer-facing or even customer service.)
If you live in the UK or Australia congratulations, you don’t have to deal with this in a meaningful way and can probably leave it alone, you have some pretense of a social safety net.
Wish that this were true - tipping has been an ever-increasing expectation in the UK for years now, and has been present in food service for ages. A fair few places will add a 10% gratuity automatically, or to the printed bill. Of course you'd still be expected to leave a cash tip (though paying cash is rarer since covid).
posted by Dysk at 7:31 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
This is insight into a different world for me. I'm currently unemployed, and all bar my last job were (UK) minimum wage, or so close to it as to make no DIFFERENCE. Tips are not and never have been a way to feel rich for me, just a way to feel poor and inadequate. Like, shit is expensive already, and being presented with a POS UI that expects a tip, forcing me to type "0" into a custom field or whatever, on a transaction that is probably financially ill-advised anyway, that sure doesn't make me feel rich. Nor does eating the cost of the extra 20% or whatever- it's not always clear that the person it's going to (assuming it even goes to them, and doesn't just get taken by the business owners) needs it more than I do, and the pennies kinda matter, make a difference to me.
(None of my jobs have ever been ones where you'd be tipped, though several of them have been directly customer-facing or even customer service.)
If you live in the UK or Australia congratulations, you don’t have to deal with this in a meaningful way and can probably leave it alone, you have some pretense of a social safety net.
Wish that this were true - tipping has been an ever-increasing expectation in the UK for years now, and has been present in food service for ages. A fair few places will add a 10% gratuity automatically, or to the printed bill. Of course you'd still be expected to leave a cash tip (though paying cash is rarer since covid).
posted by Dysk at 7:31 PM on May 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
I am very easy to strongarm into paying extra for service. I don’t evaluate the quality of that service when I’m doing it. Bluntly, I don’t care at all. I just want to get out of the experience without feeling like a bad person.
Post COVID I resent this quite a bit less, actually. Public facing work carries different risks now.
posted by eirias at 7:33 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Post COVID I resent this quite a bit less, actually. Public facing work carries different risks now.
posted by eirias at 7:33 PM on May 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
> I would absolutely love to see tipping go away. But, it's really the only way I could have lived for about 1/3 of my life
There's the rub!
IMO the issue lies in our general consensus that waiting tables, bartending, and other food service jobs are "unskilled" "menial" labor deserving of bare minimum, not something any employer needs to offer competitive rates for. Tips put many of these workers solidly into median wage territory (or better) which is therefore what they are worth - but there's no way employers will offer this level of pay, given their prejudices against this "menial" class of worker. (See: employers refusing to offer farm workers reasonable market rates. Capitalism? We should be so lucky!)
Anyway, it's hard to argue that tipping should go away when the vast majority of tipped workers would make less money if employers started paying "merely" a living wage instead. Who would support this argument? Not employers for obvious reasons, and not tipped workers either who have everything to gain from keeping tipping culture alive. And we would be ghoulish to go against the interests of tipped workers.
If we could get the culture to shift in the direction of recognizing that tipped food service workers are closer to the category of salespeople who work on commission (i.e. higher status, seen as more deserving of median-or-higher wages), THAT seems to be the only way we can reasonably work to end tipping culture and also ensure that tipped food service workers don't see a reduction in pay.
posted by MiraK at 7:34 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's the rub!
IMO the issue lies in our general consensus that waiting tables, bartending, and other food service jobs are "unskilled" "menial" labor deserving of bare minimum, not something any employer needs to offer competitive rates for. Tips put many of these workers solidly into median wage territory (or better) which is therefore what they are worth - but there's no way employers will offer this level of pay, given their prejudices against this "menial" class of worker. (See: employers refusing to offer farm workers reasonable market rates. Capitalism? We should be so lucky!)
Anyway, it's hard to argue that tipping should go away when the vast majority of tipped workers would make less money if employers started paying "merely" a living wage instead. Who would support this argument? Not employers for obvious reasons, and not tipped workers either who have everything to gain from keeping tipping culture alive. And we would be ghoulish to go against the interests of tipped workers.
If we could get the culture to shift in the direction of recognizing that tipped food service workers are closer to the category of salespeople who work on commission (i.e. higher status, seen as more deserving of median-or-higher wages), THAT seems to be the only way we can reasonably work to end tipping culture and also ensure that tipped food service workers don't see a reduction in pay.
posted by MiraK at 7:34 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
If you live in the UK or Australia congratulations, you don’t have to deal with this in a meaningful way and can probably leave it alone, you have some pretense of a social safety net.
Except that we do, because the culture of tipping keeps creeping in here and, given that almost everything is paid by card these days, I doubt any of that tip money is ending up in the pockets of workers.
I don't have a problem with anyone getting extra money for providing excellent service, but I do have a fundamental problem with people being forced to rely on tips to survive because an employer is too mean to pay a living wage to their staff. The idea that a worker only 'deserves' $2.13 an hour for any kind of work and has to rely on the kindness of strangers for the rest of their wage is capitalism at its most disgraceful.
posted by dg at 7:50 PM on May 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Except that we do, because the culture of tipping keeps creeping in here and, given that almost everything is paid by card these days, I doubt any of that tip money is ending up in the pockets of workers.
I don't have a problem with anyone getting extra money for providing excellent service, but I do have a fundamental problem with people being forced to rely on tips to survive because an employer is too mean to pay a living wage to their staff. The idea that a worker only 'deserves' $2.13 an hour for any kind of work and has to rely on the kindness of strangers for the rest of their wage is capitalism at its most disgraceful.
posted by dg at 7:50 PM on May 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
My philosophy on tipping is that it's a cheap way to feel both rich and generous.
This is actually what I hate most about tipping! Feeling rich and generous for two minutes is a paltry morsel when you're starving for the feeling of being secure in a society of equals. (Whatever that tastes like.)
posted by aws17576 at 8:23 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
This is actually what I hate most about tipping! Feeling rich and generous for two minutes is a paltry morsel when you're starving for the feeling of being secure in a society of equals. (Whatever that tastes like.)
posted by aws17576 at 8:23 PM on May 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
As someone who spent years working back of house in restaurants my biggest question is who is getting access to this money. I'm not against the idea of offering workers more, but it fucking sucks being back of house and bending over backwards to solve front of house issues and get... the same minimum wage.
I barely go to restaurants anymore because of how miserable the situation for back of house staff is, especially with the labor supply issues that continue to push more and more miserable work onto people like people with prison records who can't get a job elsewhere.
posted by Ferreous at 8:26 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I barely go to restaurants anymore because of how miserable the situation for back of house staff is, especially with the labor supply issues that continue to push more and more miserable work onto people like people with prison records who can't get a job elsewhere.
posted by Ferreous at 8:26 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Totally worth it for the endorphin hit
posted by anhedonic 🙃
posted by tigrrrlily at 10:53 PM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
First off, the $7.25 federal minimum wage is criminally low and should have been raised across the board a long time ago.
Second, here's a handy chart from the US Dept of Labor listing different states' minimum wage policies for tipped employees.
Folks talk about a $2.13 minimum wage for servers in some states, but the actual minimum wage for servers (with possible exemptions for trainees and students) is at least $7.25 in every US state and most territories.
Using Texas as an example, since that's where I worked as a tipped server very briefly during the previous millennium, every server working in Texas for an employer that follows the law (big if, I know) will earn a minimum average of $7.25 per hour. The employer will pay every server $2.13 for each hour they work. If the server's tips + the hourly $2.13 paid by the employer average out to less than $7.25 per hour, the employer has to make up the difference.
Examples:
If I work an hour and earn $0 in tips, my employer will have to pay me $7.25, and that is all I will earn for the hour.
If I work an hour and earn $2 in tips, my employer will have to pay me $5.25, and I will earn $7.25 for the hour ($2.13 base + $2.00 tips + $3.12 extra from my employer).
If I work an hour and earn $5.12 in tips, my employer will have to pay me $2.13, and I will earn $7.25 for the hour ($2.13 base + $5.12 tips).
If I work an hour and earn $15.12 in tips, my employer will have to pay me $2.13, and I will earn $17.25 for the hour ($2.13 base + $15.12 tips).
These are simplistic examples. The figures are actually averaged out over multiple hours so the server is guaranteed to earn at least $7.25 per hour averaged over a whole pay period (maybe one week, two weeks or one month).
Again, take a look at the DOL chart I linked above. From my reading of the chart, the situation for servers is generally best in states toward the top of the chart and gets worse as you scroll down. Texas is in the bottom section, and therefore one of the worst states, unsurprisingly.
But even in Texas, servers are guaranteed to earn a minimum of $7.25 per hour.
Coda: The federal minimum hourly wage of $7.25 is far too low. I tip my servers well. All servers working for employers who follow the law are making at least the federal minimum wage in all US states and most territories.
posted by syzygy at 12:27 AM on May 2, 2023
Second, here's a handy chart from the US Dept of Labor listing different states' minimum wage policies for tipped employees.
Folks talk about a $2.13 minimum wage for servers in some states, but the actual minimum wage for servers (with possible exemptions for trainees and students) is at least $7.25 in every US state and most territories.
Using Texas as an example, since that's where I worked as a tipped server very briefly during the previous millennium, every server working in Texas for an employer that follows the law (big if, I know) will earn a minimum average of $7.25 per hour. The employer will pay every server $2.13 for each hour they work. If the server's tips + the hourly $2.13 paid by the employer average out to less than $7.25 per hour, the employer has to make up the difference.
Examples:
If I work an hour and earn $0 in tips, my employer will have to pay me $7.25, and that is all I will earn for the hour.
If I work an hour and earn $2 in tips, my employer will have to pay me $5.25, and I will earn $7.25 for the hour ($2.13 base + $2.00 tips + $3.12 extra from my employer).
If I work an hour and earn $5.12 in tips, my employer will have to pay me $2.13, and I will earn $7.25 for the hour ($2.13 base + $5.12 tips).
If I work an hour and earn $15.12 in tips, my employer will have to pay me $2.13, and I will earn $17.25 for the hour ($2.13 base + $15.12 tips).
These are simplistic examples. The figures are actually averaged out over multiple hours so the server is guaranteed to earn at least $7.25 per hour averaged over a whole pay period (maybe one week, two weeks or one month).
Again, take a look at the DOL chart I linked above. From my reading of the chart, the situation for servers is generally best in states toward the top of the chart and gets worse as you scroll down. Texas is in the bottom section, and therefore one of the worst states, unsurprisingly.
But even in Texas, servers are guaranteed to earn a minimum of $7.25 per hour.
Coda: The federal minimum hourly wage of $7.25 is far too low. I tip my servers well. All servers working for employers who follow the law are making at least the federal minimum wage in all US states and most territories.
posted by syzygy at 12:27 AM on May 2, 2023
because they're making a DIFFERENT minimum wage. in pa, minimum for a job classified as non-tipped is $7.25. minimum for a job classified as tipped is $2.83.
I actually deliberately picked baristas in my example as a job that is often tipped, but actually DOES usually get paid a real minimum wage and not a tipped one in the US. Am I wrong about this?
They definitely get paid the same as I was in the UK, but still all have tip jars out because everyone has agreed that you tip the person who makes your coffee but nobody else behind a register.
I think Amazon delivery drivers probably need tips as much (if not more!) as baristas do, but when we start tipping *everyone* because employers don't pay enough.... Well what's the point in a minimum wage nobody can live on. It's a fundamentally broken system that benefits rich companies, cynical assholes who dont pay their share, and those lucky enough to be attractive and charming enough that people want to give them enough extra money.
But even in Texas, servers are guaranteed to earn a minimum of $7.25 per hour.
I have gathered, from reading a lot of personal anecdotes online, is that this is supposed to happen but just... Doesn't, in practice.
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:54 AM on May 2, 2023
I actually deliberately picked baristas in my example as a job that is often tipped, but actually DOES usually get paid a real minimum wage and not a tipped one in the US. Am I wrong about this?
They definitely get paid the same as I was in the UK, but still all have tip jars out because everyone has agreed that you tip the person who makes your coffee but nobody else behind a register.
I think Amazon delivery drivers probably need tips as much (if not more!) as baristas do, but when we start tipping *everyone* because employers don't pay enough.... Well what's the point in a minimum wage nobody can live on. It's a fundamentally broken system that benefits rich companies, cynical assholes who dont pay their share, and those lucky enough to be attractive and charming enough that people want to give them enough extra money.
But even in Texas, servers are guaranteed to earn a minimum of $7.25 per hour.
I have gathered, from reading a lot of personal anecdotes online, is that this is supposed to happen but just... Doesn't, in practice.
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:54 AM on May 2, 2023
MetaFilter: I think we're largely on the same page but it's sometimes easy to get the wrong idea when you look too hard at comments.
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:43 AM on May 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:43 AM on May 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Totally worth it for the endorphin hit
posted by anhedonic 🙃
Exactly. I finally found the one thing that makes me happy and it's paying an extra dollar for a bagel.
posted by anhedonic at 4:51 AM on May 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by anhedonic 🙃
Exactly. I finally found the one thing that makes me happy and it's paying an extra dollar for a bagel.
posted by anhedonic at 4:51 AM on May 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
And then there's Jekyll Island, a place that Doordash will happily send me on runs to that are not only all at least nine miles just to get there, but that there's an $8 toll just to get on the wretched island, that Doordash doesn't acknowledge nor reimburse for.
JHarris: Thanks for telling this story. Jekyll is our favorite place to vacation, but we haven't been back during the pandemic because the outdoor dining options on the island are limited, especially in the evening, and we were skeptical about getting delivery there. Thanks for confirming that it would be a bad idea. (side note: The Days Inn on Jekyll Island is the best place for people who want an amazing beach experience at budget prices)
posted by hydropsyche at 5:02 AM on May 2, 2023
JHarris: Thanks for telling this story. Jekyll is our favorite place to vacation, but we haven't been back during the pandemic because the outdoor dining options on the island are limited, especially in the evening, and we were skeptical about getting delivery there. Thanks for confirming that it would be a bad idea. (side note: The Days Inn on Jekyll Island is the best place for people who want an amazing beach experience at budget prices)
posted by hydropsyche at 5:02 AM on May 2, 2023
I have always tipped 20%+ for waiters. However, I hear that fairly soon we will be asked to tip if we drive by a coffee shop without purchasing anything.
posted by DJZouke at 5:03 AM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by DJZouke at 5:03 AM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
My problem with the stance that one should tip customer-facing food service workers not just because they are specifically paid a lower "tipped wage" than other workers but because they are low-paid/non-living-wage jobs in general is that there are so many low-wage jobs out there where there's no tip option to help boost their take-home. I'll use my area (exurbia Maryland) as an example. Right now, the state min. wage is $13.25/hr whether one is working a straight wage job or sub. minimum "tipped wage"+ tips. So restaurant servers are making at least $13.25/hr factoring in tips. Baristas are making at least $13.25/hr without . Do you tip the barista at Starbucks because $13.25 is still a shit wage? At Dunkin? Ditto for workers at counter service restaurants, none of whom are being paid a sub-minimum tipped wage. Do you tip at the counter at the locally owned "nice" place? At Panera? At Subway? At McDonalds? But then...the floor staff at the grocery store, the pharmacy, at Walmart...they're all making the same as a barista or a sandwich maker. You CAN'T tip them. The receptionist at the chiropracter, the desk clerk at the hotel, nursing home caregivers... the list of people working hard jobs for low wages is long and expanded tipping practices beyond jobs making tipped minimum wage is only going to make a difference for a fraction of them.
posted by drlith at 5:54 AM on May 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by drlith at 5:54 AM on May 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
(in case it's not clear, I'm not saying don't tip waitstaff who ARE making a "tipped minimum wage"!)
posted by drlith at 5:55 AM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by drlith at 5:55 AM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
But even in Texas, servers are guaranteed to earn a minimum of $7.25 per hour.stillnocturnal: I have gathered, from reading a lot of personal anecdotes online, is that this is supposed to happen but just... Doesn't, in practice.
I'm certain some (many?) employers skirt the rules. I did mention that this is how it works if the employer is following the law, and that that is a big "if".
I worked in a mid-to-upper-scale Italian food restaurant with a nice wine list and waitstaff in starched white Ralph Lauren Polo shirts who were mostly similar to the high school or college kids of the restaurant's patrons - young, white, (on average) pretty attractive and with good manners (i.e. privileged). Tips were good there, and no server working at that restaurant earned less than the federal minimum wage after adding their tips to the $2.13/hour the restaurant paid. I'm certain the restaurant would have fired any server whom they did have to pay more than $2.13/hour in order to get them to the federal minimum wage, though.
---
Takeout orders: Where I worked, a single server would be assigned to handle takeout orders during each shift. That waitperson would generally have one table fewer than they would get during most shifts. A waitperson who qualified to have a 4-table station during most shifts would only get a 3-table station during shifts where they also worked takeouts.
This is one of the reasons I tip for takeouts, although not as much as I tip for table service. I know the waitperson handling my takeout order will likely earn less during their current takeout shift than they usually would, and that it's just about as much work to handle takeouts as it is to wait a single table during a single shift.
---
Cash is king: Where I worked, the unofficial practice among waitstaff was to declare a minimum of $30-$40 in tips per shift. A portion of those tips were 'tipped out' to greeters, busfolks and bartenders (and possibly other team members - I don't recall the exact details). The reason you underdeclared your tips wasn't to stiff those folks of their share, though. It was to walk home with some untaxed income, which only worked if enough people paid their tips in cash.
---
I have tons of tipping stories, but the most important point is that everyone should be paid a living wage by their employers.
posted by syzygy at 7:15 AM on May 2, 2023
IIRC, MiraK is Indian, so I'd guess she is speaking from knowledge, though it may only apply in her area.
posted by tavella at 7:42 AM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tavella at 7:42 AM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mod note: No comments have been removed at this point, but drop the derail about whether to tip in Indian restaurants immediately. If anyone continues bringing it up, they may be invited to take a day off from the site.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:00 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:00 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
When I see the tip selection at a corporate place like Panera is: who is getting this? Does the person putting the scone in a bag actually see a dime of that tip? Does anyone know that with this large corporations incorporating tipping into everything, are the wage slaves getting any taste at all of that 20%? I have no problem tipping for service but I'll be damned if I want mega-corp just drilling me for an extra twenty.
posted by Ber at 8:12 AM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Ber at 8:12 AM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Thorzdad, I've asked waitstaff how they prefer to be tipped, and they've always said "whichever way you want".
syzygy: Thank you for answering, with the answer being cash.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:49 AM on May 2, 2023
syzygy: Thank you for answering, with the answer being cash.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:49 AM on May 2, 2023
You can believe both that tipping is part and parcel of the exploitation of service workers, that it puts the burden of paying a living wage to laborers on the consumer, that it should already be priced into the product, that tips should only be for exceptional service, that laws should be passed at the national level to ensure a living wage for all workers, that tipping is complicity with the wrong state of things *and* that you should still tip as much as you can afford, regardless of quality of service, because the alternative is coldness and indifference to the struggle of your fellow human beings. We can't be Kantians about tipping, we can't have clean and pure moral actions in when the whole world is wrong.
posted by dis_integration at 9:10 AM on May 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 9:10 AM on May 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
I wonder how big of an impact it would make if every time you came across a tipping situation, you complained to management and asked them to pay their workers better. I might start and see what kinds of responses I get, if any.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:13 AM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:13 AM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, tipping culture sucks. I've always lived in a jurisdiction where there is no separate tipped wage, everyone gets the same $18/hr minimum wage (ridiculously HCOL area) no matter what. Yet the wait staff (and maybe the BOH) get 20%+ on already relatively high priced food (especially since the pandemic) for what amounts to barely fast-casual levels of service. Meanwhile the McDonald's worker in the same jurisdiction is making the same minimum wage, no tips. The CVS worker manning 4 self checkout lanes while running back and forth unlocking the baby formula and razors also getting the same minimum wage, no tips. I mean, if we are saying that tipping is crucial to supporting low wage workers and anybody who's against tipping is a monster, are we willing to expand tipping culture to the guy at the non unionized supermarket? If not, why not?
On preview, sorta what drlilth said.
posted by flamk at 9:34 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
On preview, sorta what drlilth said.
posted by flamk at 9:34 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think this thread (and the article) are biased towards the same old criticisms of tipping - you know, it's been over 30 years since Mr. Pink delivered his monologue, it's an old story. But in the past year, many of us have been on the receiving side of completely baffling and bad-faith requests for tipping that don't have anything to do with the standard question of whether tipping is a good system or not.
I've tipped well during the pandemic, even when running into a shop to grab a sandwich order off a shelf by the door; if someone was following my specific instructions about what sauces or breads to build the sandwich with, it's still personalized service, and I'm happy to tip. Service workers should be treated well. If I personally were building society from scratch I'd just pay everyone a living wage and maybe we wouldn't have to tip, but at some point, you live in a world larger than yourself and still should be decent to people, and that's just the way things are.
But the most egregious moment of this past year was going to see a concert at a local arena. Instead of concessionaires, there was now an area where you walked in, grabbed bottled drinks or packaged snacks out of the cooler, went to one of the self-checkouts, scanned it and paid for the items yourself. No service at all. An employee or two were hybrid security guards and tech support, standing around in case of trouble. Yet, after ringing up the transaction (at wildly inflated prices), I was asked to tip 20, 25, 30 percent, despite not interacting with a single person or receiving any service whatsoever. I was dumbfounded. It was one of the first times I refused a tip, since there did not appear to be literally anybody I was tipping.
Similarly, I went to a local salad bar restaurant - grab your plate, load it up yourself from the salad bar, pour a water or get a drink yourself from the machine, eat, and then bus everything yourself - I was faced with the same dilemma. When walking out to pay, I was asked the same question - 20, 25, 30 percent tip? Who was I tipping, the manager or owner who was at the payment station, literally the only person I encountered during my trip there?
Both of these examples - and there are many others - were places that seemed to be explicitly designed to provide literally no personalized service and to staff a bare minimum number of people, letting the customers do all the work. While I'm happy to tip a barista or bartender who makes a drink to my specifications, I'm absolutely not going to provide a tip on a machine to serve something to myself, to bus or dispose of it myself, and finally pay for it myself on a terminal. Sheesh.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 10:28 AM on May 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
I've tipped well during the pandemic, even when running into a shop to grab a sandwich order off a shelf by the door; if someone was following my specific instructions about what sauces or breads to build the sandwich with, it's still personalized service, and I'm happy to tip. Service workers should be treated well. If I personally were building society from scratch I'd just pay everyone a living wage and maybe we wouldn't have to tip, but at some point, you live in a world larger than yourself and still should be decent to people, and that's just the way things are.
But the most egregious moment of this past year was going to see a concert at a local arena. Instead of concessionaires, there was now an area where you walked in, grabbed bottled drinks or packaged snacks out of the cooler, went to one of the self-checkouts, scanned it and paid for the items yourself. No service at all. An employee or two were hybrid security guards and tech support, standing around in case of trouble. Yet, after ringing up the transaction (at wildly inflated prices), I was asked to tip 20, 25, 30 percent, despite not interacting with a single person or receiving any service whatsoever. I was dumbfounded. It was one of the first times I refused a tip, since there did not appear to be literally anybody I was tipping.
Similarly, I went to a local salad bar restaurant - grab your plate, load it up yourself from the salad bar, pour a water or get a drink yourself from the machine, eat, and then bus everything yourself - I was faced with the same dilemma. When walking out to pay, I was asked the same question - 20, 25, 30 percent tip? Who was I tipping, the manager or owner who was at the payment station, literally the only person I encountered during my trip there?
Both of these examples - and there are many others - were places that seemed to be explicitly designed to provide literally no personalized service and to staff a bare minimum number of people, letting the customers do all the work. While I'm happy to tip a barista or bartender who makes a drink to my specifications, I'm absolutely not going to provide a tip on a machine to serve something to myself, to bus or dispose of it myself, and finally pay for it myself on a terminal. Sheesh.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 10:28 AM on May 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
Personalized service is the business model more often than not, isn't it? Tipping someone for doing exactly what they were hired to do and exactly what you asked them to do is a truly weird concept. I still do it, but it makes little sense. I sort of view it through the lens of the journalism adage about how "dog bites man" isn't news but "man bites dog" is. Compulsory tipping for "dog bites man" work is weird.
posted by emelenjr at 11:02 AM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by emelenjr at 11:02 AM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mean the idea of tipping 10% for bad service is just, to me, lunacy. It's like saying I'm paying that guy who is "washing" my windows at the stoplights for his service, or perhaps more kindly like when I let that other guy return my cart and keep the 1 dollar deposit at the grocery store. If you aren't getting paid why are you at work, is it even employment?
To be clear, when travelling in the US we do tip, generously, and without begrudging, but it's a messed up system that damages everyone except the business owners.
posted by Iteki at 11:11 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
To be clear, when travelling in the US we do tip, generously, and without begrudging, but it's a messed up system that damages everyone except the business owners.
posted by Iteki at 11:11 AM on May 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Capitol Hill restaurant explains its fee structure and its relationship to tipping.
posted by jgirl at 11:55 AM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by jgirl at 11:55 AM on May 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm curious of the Capitol Hill restaurant management's background and motivations leading into that service fee plan.
Honestly, I could imagine myself as an idealist trying to raise wages and give employees stability, trying to use a fee like that to gradually step away from tip based compensation. Add 20% for a while as a pilot, and if things go well, raise menu prices by 20% and tell people tips are included in menu price. But I can also imagine complete assholes doing it as a way raise prices without raising prices.
I just checked the website for Northstar Cafe in Columbus that used to have menu prices with built in tip, and it looks like they've moved away from that but still do a 100% tip share where all staff receive their share every two weeks with their check. This would eliminate the parts of tipping that most annoyed me when I worked food service; its inequity among staff and shifts, and its arbitrary and capricious nature.
posted by midmarch snowman at 12:17 PM on May 2, 2023
Honestly, I could imagine myself as an idealist trying to raise wages and give employees stability, trying to use a fee like that to gradually step away from tip based compensation. Add 20% for a while as a pilot, and if things go well, raise menu prices by 20% and tell people tips are included in menu price. But I can also imagine complete assholes doing it as a way raise prices without raising prices.
I just checked the website for Northstar Cafe in Columbus that used to have menu prices with built in tip, and it looks like they've moved away from that but still do a 100% tip share where all staff receive their share every two weeks with their check. This would eliminate the parts of tipping that most annoyed me when I worked food service; its inequity among staff and shifts, and its arbitrary and capricious nature.
posted by midmarch snowman at 12:17 PM on May 2, 2023
Germane to the discussion:
Chicago restaurants rethink tipping amid pandemic-born industry shifts
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:44 PM on May 2, 2023
Chicago restaurants rethink tipping amid pandemic-born industry shifts
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:44 PM on May 2, 2023
(Note that Rick Bayless, one of the people featured about doing away with tipping, is fucking R-I-C-H and is someone who should have done this ages ago for his restaurant, but I'm of the mind that if you can afford to run a restaurant at all you can afford to pay your people a living wage. Or you shouldn't be in business.)
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:47 PM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:47 PM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, I had no idea how to search for this but I should have just tried because it's out there! We can stop complaining about this culture and support businesses that do the right thing.
Reddit thread about Chicago restaurants who pay a living wage
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:54 PM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Reddit thread about Chicago restaurants who pay a living wage
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:54 PM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
(Not much info...in search of more. This might be an AskMe)
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:56 PM on May 2, 2023
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:56 PM on May 2, 2023
Yet, after ringing up the transaction (at wildly inflated prices), I was asked to tip 20, 25, 30 percent, despite not interacting with a single person or receiving any service whatsoever
I think this is a weirdly common perspective - that tips have to be relative to the service provided whereas my thinking, after having grown up with parents who worked in restaurants and who worked service himself, it's always been relative to 'how wealthy am I, how much disposable income do I have, do I really need that nice present,' etc
accordingly, after a few salary bumps, my partner and I have a minimum 20% tip for any place where we're pretty sure they're making less than $18/hour (which is barely a livable wage in a lot of places now much less one that affords you the happiness that comes with having enough money) though we average 35%+
and I think that's how it always should be? like if you make a comfortable amount of money, spread that shit instead of acting like Lorde Capitalism Jr., he who is the Determiner the value of thy labor, if ye be worthye of $5.48 or whatever the fuck
posted by paimapi at 1:04 PM on May 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think this is a weirdly common perspective - that tips have to be relative to the service provided whereas my thinking, after having grown up with parents who worked in restaurants and who worked service himself, it's always been relative to 'how wealthy am I, how much disposable income do I have, do I really need that nice present,' etc
accordingly, after a few salary bumps, my partner and I have a minimum 20% tip for any place where we're pretty sure they're making less than $18/hour (which is barely a livable wage in a lot of places now much less one that affords you the happiness that comes with having enough money) though we average 35%+
and I think that's how it always should be? like if you make a comfortable amount of money, spread that shit instead of acting like Lorde Capitalism Jr., he who is the Determiner the value of thy labor, if ye be worthye of $5.48 or whatever the fuck
posted by paimapi at 1:04 PM on May 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Casa Nueva, a worker-owned, no-tip restaurant in Athens, Ohio
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:08 PM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 1:08 PM on May 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I find the idea that I would be expected to toss money around as charity, but only to certain classes of workers, bizarre. For example, all workers, including waitstaff, in California get the state minimum wage, $15.50, and tips go on top of that. But for some reason I'm supposed to give 20 percent extra to people I never interact with? No thanks, I donate to food banks and a number of other charities where I know there is need, and I'll pass on tip-nagging POS at restaurants that literally have no waitstaff.
Unless you go around tipping cashiers 20 percent of your grocery bill, oil change places 20 percent, the clerk at the gas station, etc, it become just bizarre special pleading.
posted by tavella at 2:09 PM on May 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
Unless you go around tipping cashiers 20 percent of your grocery bill, oil change places 20 percent, the clerk at the gas station, etc, it become just bizarre special pleading.
posted by tavella at 2:09 PM on May 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
For example, all workers, including waitstaff, in California get the state minimum wage, $15.50,
That's fantastic (not enough to live on still, though, from what I understand? So....) But that's not at all the norm across the U.S.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:12 PM on May 2, 2023
That's fantastic (not enough to live on still, though, from what I understand? So....) But that's not at all the norm across the U.S.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:12 PM on May 2, 2023
I bet card readers are adding tipping for everything by default because they get a cut, not because society has decided that this or that job diserve a tip.
Yet another reason we need to nationalize our payment system.
posted by rebent at 6:14 PM on May 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
Yet another reason we need to nationalize our payment system.
posted by rebent at 6:14 PM on May 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
Mod note: A few deleted. Let's not get into it with other users please. Take a break from the thread if you find yourself over-commenting and/or directly responding to other users.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 7:54 PM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 7:54 PM on May 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I heard a long time ago that servers get taxed on their tips by assuming a 10% tip for each ticket or something. For that reason, I always tipped 10% at the minimum for super shitty service, because no one should get taxed on income they didn’t even actually earn.
Is this actually true? I still think I’ll stick with the 10% minimum, just to be a decent human. But I really have trouble with this “need” argument for tipping. If we tip based on need instead of service, are we just giving donations then? Should I request the poorest looking server in the place who must obviously deserve it more? We don’t, because tipping is paying for a service. Don’t be an asshole and use that as an excuse to lord over your server, but this is an exchange of goods, not a charity.
Why don’t we tip at McDonalds? It is also hard work but I have worked at both McDonalds and a table-service restaurant and you just do more at the restaurant. Generally the work at McDonald’s is pretty siloed, everyone is doing a specific job and there’s even a specific person to put it all together at the end. While it may be similar physical requirements, I would say that restaurant work needs higher level emotional and mental demands. Keeping everything in your mind for all your tables is a lot harder than filling up fries, just taking an order after order or only filling up drinks.
posted by LizBoBiz at 12:15 AM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is this actually true? I still think I’ll stick with the 10% minimum, just to be a decent human. But I really have trouble with this “need” argument for tipping. If we tip based on need instead of service, are we just giving donations then? Should I request the poorest looking server in the place who must obviously deserve it more? We don’t, because tipping is paying for a service. Don’t be an asshole and use that as an excuse to lord over your server, but this is an exchange of goods, not a charity.
Why don’t we tip at McDonalds? It is also hard work but I have worked at both McDonalds and a table-service restaurant and you just do more at the restaurant. Generally the work at McDonald’s is pretty siloed, everyone is doing a specific job and there’s even a specific person to put it all together at the end. While it may be similar physical requirements, I would say that restaurant work needs higher level emotional and mental demands. Keeping everything in your mind for all your tables is a lot harder than filling up fries, just taking an order after order or only filling up drinks.
posted by LizBoBiz at 12:15 AM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
tavella's idea was that they give money to food banks instead of tipping. I don't know whether this is a great idea, but it's not just refusing to help people.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:29 AM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:29 AM on May 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have mild dyscalculia and social anxiety and this makes tipping torture. At the end of a nice meal with friends the last thing I want to do is mental math while feeling judged. Or after getting a haircut — I’m a people pleaser and I know I will see this person again, so I have major anxiety about not tipping enough while also needing to do math at the end of a haircut, like, just charge me what you feel your services are worth?! so I can have a pleasant experience rather than a fraught one. (Seriously, ever since the pandemic I cut my own hair now, and being afraid of the tipping part is a major part of that.)
And tipping has always felt to me like a power move meant to demean the recipient, like, you are at the mercy of my largess, (lifts pinky) let me choose what I shall deign to bestow upon you. Gross. And when I worked as a server, it felt demeaning.
And the roots of the practice are racist. It was a way to not pay black staff, and it’s still being used as a way to not pay staff.
I can’t in good conscience say the answer is not to tip, because people need to be paid for their labor and it’s legal for restaurants to underpay staff. And I certainly made a point to patronize restaurants that were experimenting with paying their staff and forbidding tips when I lived in the US. But I don’t think we get out of this without a law requiring restaurants to pay all of their employees a living wage and possibly also making the request of tips by a business illegal.
posted by antinomia at 7:38 AM on May 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
And tipping has always felt to me like a power move meant to demean the recipient, like, you are at the mercy of my largess, (lifts pinky) let me choose what I shall deign to bestow upon you. Gross. And when I worked as a server, it felt demeaning.
And the roots of the practice are racist. It was a way to not pay black staff, and it’s still being used as a way to not pay staff.
I can’t in good conscience say the answer is not to tip, because people need to be paid for their labor and it’s legal for restaurants to underpay staff. And I certainly made a point to patronize restaurants that were experimenting with paying their staff and forbidding tips when I lived in the US. But I don’t think we get out of this without a law requiring restaurants to pay all of their employees a living wage and possibly also making the request of tips by a business illegal.
posted by antinomia at 7:38 AM on May 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
In the Chicago Tribune article, they say that they're hoping to get the 'subminimum wage' repealed, but IMHO, that won't change anything until culture changes. In Oregon, there is no subminimal wage, but tipping is just as out of hand as it is everywhere else. And many places are also adding a service fee to compensate for higher food costs.
I really just hate all the added fees that our society has. And tipping is really just another fee that we theoretically have free agency over (but we don't). Hotels have a resort fee; shipping companies have fees for higher gas prices; restaurants have a inflation fee; airlines have baggage fees, etc. When prices go up, I'd rather just see a higher price tag. (I mean, not really, but it's better than gotcha fees everywhere.)
The problem is that the general public would rather see a 'lower' price with a higher price at the end after fees. They say they don't want this, but time and again they seek out the 'bargains'.
posted by hydra77 at 11:21 AM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I really just hate all the added fees that our society has. And tipping is really just another fee that we theoretically have free agency over (but we don't). Hotels have a resort fee; shipping companies have fees for higher gas prices; restaurants have a inflation fee; airlines have baggage fees, etc. When prices go up, I'd rather just see a higher price tag. (I mean, not really, but it's better than gotcha fees everywhere.)
The problem is that the general public would rather see a 'lower' price with a higher price at the end after fees. They say they don't want this, but time and again they seek out the 'bargains'.
posted by hydra77 at 11:21 AM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The problem there is, people see the gotcha fees after they pay, then they either get mad and don't go there again (if possible), or forget about it for next time, or it's just a one-time purchase anymore and the damage to repeat business doesn't matter anyway.
What we need is a site that records what people actually pay for a good or service, and presents it in relation to the advertised price.
posted by JHarris at 1:53 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
What we need is a site that records what people actually pay for a good or service, and presents it in relation to the advertised price.
posted by JHarris at 1:53 PM on May 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Here's additional food for thought:
Unionized Apple Workers Say Tip Your Genius Bar-Tender
To be clear, this is not about factory workers, delivery drivers, etc. This is the staff at one of the only two unionized Apple stores in the country.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:24 AM on May 5, 2023
Unionized Apple Workers Say Tip Your Genius Bar-Tender
To be clear, this is not about factory workers, delivery drivers, etc. This is the staff at one of the only two unionized Apple stores in the country.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:24 AM on May 5, 2023
Two thoughts:
-Fuuuuck service fees. Raise your prices. It's the same thing but a lot less underhanded. I'm not sure about other places but the fees are getting super confusing and aggressive in DC, to the point where the DC subreddit created an extensive tracker of restaurants' fees and what the restaurant says they go to.
-Tip culture and the power dynamics associated with it are directly linked to sexual harassment of tipped employees.
Obviously all servers and service staff should be paid a fair and living wage, and that wage should increase from there commensurately with their skill. So should back of house and other non-customer-facing service (and non-service) jobs. I'm not convinced tipping is the right way to achieve that and I'm always saddened to see news stories and in-person trends of US restaurants trying various tip-free models that ultimately fail and revert to traditional tipped models.
posted by mosst at 8:35 AM on May 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
-Fuuuuck service fees. Raise your prices. It's the same thing but a lot less underhanded. I'm not sure about other places but the fees are getting super confusing and aggressive in DC, to the point where the DC subreddit created an extensive tracker of restaurants' fees and what the restaurant says they go to.
-Tip culture and the power dynamics associated with it are directly linked to sexual harassment of tipped employees.
Obviously all servers and service staff should be paid a fair and living wage, and that wage should increase from there commensurately with their skill. So should back of house and other non-customer-facing service (and non-service) jobs. I'm not convinced tipping is the right way to achieve that and I'm always saddened to see news stories and in-person trends of US restaurants trying various tip-free models that ultimately fail and revert to traditional tipped models.
posted by mosst at 8:35 AM on May 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also - I have to say, I hate how our convoluted tip culture makes all kinds of non-food things super confusing and makes it easy to accidentally stiff someone and therefore contribute to their underpayment if you didn't know the tipping expectation was there (which often happens when you're not from the social class or tradition where you did those things regularly).
I'll tell on myself and say that I have accidentally stiffed people I didn't know I was supposed to tip in all of the following scenarios (mostly these things happened in college while I was learning the ropes of adulthood): hotel porters, coat check, open bar bartenders, tour guides, hotel housekeeping, dog groomers, mail delivery people (during the holidays), doormen (same).
Obviously now I know about all of those and I always try to tip well, but I am always low-level stressed about which other things are also on that list that I'm not even aware of. Someone above mentioned piercers - I'm glad they did because I'm planning to get my first piercing as an adult soon and I genuinely had no idea. I also googled up a list of professions you're supposed to tip and a few of those are news to me - ski instructors? Whoops, well, I took my also-first-as-an-adult ski lesson last year and I thought the already hefty price tag would have covered that.
And this is from someone who grew up in the US - I can't imagine how much harder it'd be if I were an immigrant. Why do we tip housekeeping and not janitors? Massage therapists but not physical therapists? The baggage handlers who work on the hotel shuttle but not the ones that work for the airline? And the fact that tipping culture does feel like it's evolving/growing rapidly does not help my anxiety about this one bit.
posted by mosst at 9:02 AM on May 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'll tell on myself and say that I have accidentally stiffed people I didn't know I was supposed to tip in all of the following scenarios (mostly these things happened in college while I was learning the ropes of adulthood): hotel porters, coat check, open bar bartenders, tour guides, hotel housekeeping, dog groomers, mail delivery people (during the holidays), doormen (same).
Obviously now I know about all of those and I always try to tip well, but I am always low-level stressed about which other things are also on that list that I'm not even aware of. Someone above mentioned piercers - I'm glad they did because I'm planning to get my first piercing as an adult soon and I genuinely had no idea. I also googled up a list of professions you're supposed to tip and a few of those are news to me - ski instructors? Whoops, well, I took my also-first-as-an-adult ski lesson last year and I thought the already hefty price tag would have covered that.
And this is from someone who grew up in the US - I can't imagine how much harder it'd be if I were an immigrant. Why do we tip housekeeping and not janitors? Massage therapists but not physical therapists? The baggage handlers who work on the hotel shuttle but not the ones that work for the airline? And the fact that tipping culture does feel like it's evolving/growing rapidly does not help my anxiety about this one bit.
posted by mosst at 9:02 AM on May 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Unionized Apple Workers Say Tip Your Genius Bar-Tender
there is currently no other mechanism that would otherwise allow customers to directly thank or contribute to the team that provided them with exceptional service
So the only way to thank someone or express appreciation for exceptional service is to give them money?
posted by dg at 5:19 PM on May 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
there is currently no other mechanism that would otherwise allow customers to directly thank or contribute to the team that provided them with exceptional service
So the only way to thank someone or express appreciation for exceptional service is to give them money?
posted by dg at 5:19 PM on May 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
This has been a really interesting thread. I don't think atomized service fees, designating tips for this worker groups X or Y or Z at a business, or broader tipping are the answers. Trying to figure out this shit is tiring and unpleasant on those occasions when I go out to a restaurant or bar and the array of possible suggested actions is broader than preset tip options or it's simply up to you to tip as you will (I am generally a 20% person, give or take). I would prefer higher prices overall, with a guarantee that employees were well paid, whether enforced by law or written into union contracts.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:58 AM on May 9, 2023
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:58 AM on May 9, 2023
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I did start tipping for takeaway service during the pandemic, so maybe that's not 100% true.
posted by muddgirl at 11:47 AM on May 1, 2023 [3 favorites]