Free man on the land!
May 11, 2023 12:38 PM Subscribe
CW: Police violence in beginning of video
münecat on a Metafilter perennial favorite topic: Sovereign Citizens: Pseudolaw & Disorder (yes this is nearly 2 hours of video essay goodness)
münecat on a Metafilter perennial favorite topic: Sovereign Citizens: Pseudolaw & Disorder (yes this is nearly 2 hours of video essay goodness)
Metafilter: I do not consent to create joinder with you
posted by allegedly at 1:07 PM on May 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by allegedly at 1:07 PM on May 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
Metafilter: Am I free to leave?
posted by slater at 1:09 PM on May 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by slater at 1:09 PM on May 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
I had to deal with some of these folk in my professional capacity recently. Do Not Recommend.
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:27 PM on May 11, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:27 PM on May 11, 2023 [20 favorites]
I spend at least 50% of my working day dealing with these ding-dongs (yes, we have them in the UK too). Some of them are just greedy, arguing that because "there's no such thing as money" everything - houses, cars, utilities - should be free. Others are desperate, gullible people in debt who've fallen down an internet rabbit hole.
You only have to ask them "if you were selling your car, would you accept a handwritten promissory note as payment?" for their arguments to fall to pieces.
Six or seven years ago I was spending 100% of my day on these. They seem to come in waves, and when one popular theory fails, another one comes along, and they cycle through various get-things-for-free schemes on a regular basis.
posted by essexjan at 1:29 PM on May 11, 2023 [21 favorites]
You only have to ask them "if you were selling your car, would you accept a handwritten promissory note as payment?" for their arguments to fall to pieces.
Six or seven years ago I was spending 100% of my day on these. They seem to come in waves, and when one popular theory fails, another one comes along, and they cycle through various get-things-for-free schemes on a regular basis.
posted by essexjan at 1:29 PM on May 11, 2023 [21 favorites]
yes, we have them in the UK too
The linked video is from the UK.
posted by Ickster at 1:44 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
The linked video is from the UK.
posted by Ickster at 1:44 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Everyone knows that a 2 hour video essay with British accents in it should have a personalized custom link. That link should have my earth name, not my government name, in CAPITAL LETTERS, with a copyright date. This is all laid out according to moon law.
(I'm part owner of the moon since the official treaty is unclear, according to Politico)
Due to my unique American Super Patriot heritage, I invalidate the thesis of these videos. They weren't delivered unto my eyeballs the right way, so I am opting out of visual slavery.
I also saw a bird in a video and everyone knows birds aren't real. Again, this is all laid out in The Big Book of Moon Law: Why Everyone Else Is Wrong by Kate of Gaia.
*I conclude my defense by asking for my time back, at a cost of $1 million Republic of Texas dollars.
**This fine is to be assessed by the first local sheriff I find who doesn't laugh in my face.
***My attorney, Winston Shrout, will follow up when he's let out of Earth jail by the elites.
MAGNA CARTA 4EVER!
/s
This whole thing is a dream come true for a loser who wants an excuse for why the world isn't going their way. Great work by munecat!
posted by Freecola at 1:52 PM on May 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
(I'm part owner of the moon since the official treaty is unclear, according to Politico)
Due to my unique American Super Patriot heritage, I invalidate the thesis of these videos. They weren't delivered unto my eyeballs the right way, so I am opting out of visual slavery.
I also saw a bird in a video and everyone knows birds aren't real. Again, this is all laid out in The Big Book of Moon Law: Why Everyone Else Is Wrong by Kate of Gaia.
*I conclude my defense by asking for my time back, at a cost of $1 million Republic of Texas dollars.
**This fine is to be assessed by the first local sheriff I find who doesn't laugh in my face.
***My attorney, Winston Shrout, will follow up when he's let out of Earth jail by the elites.
MAGNA CARTA 4EVER!
/s
This whole thing is a dream come true for a loser who wants an excuse for why the world isn't going their way. Great work by munecat!
posted by Freecola at 1:52 PM on May 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Favorite quotes:
We come from our mother's waters.
Your mother has a birth canal, just lIKE a SHip!
It's about commerce.
They're speaking Legalese.
Concrete, glass, and steel are all plastic...something something 9/11.
Freedom School
NOTE: I was absolutely shocked to see some minorities show up in these clips, as if the "I'm special so listen to my wordy words and research" would work for them in court!
posted by Freecola at 2:11 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
"But obviously, when the poor avoid tax, it's illegal, stupid!"
Haha so funny because it is true, this is the part that burns my ass! Fuck you government! And fuck you grifters feeding off of these legitimate grievances.
So here is my free open source non-grifter idea: set up all of the machinery in the Cayman Islands, with a Dutch sandwich or whatever the fuck is required, anyone who wants in can join. Throw enough lawyers at it so it will stick. Members can drop out of the formal economy and all of their cash earnings getlaundered legally processed and reisuued as stock options or whatever.
Fuck you oligarchy. Eat the rich.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:11 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Haha so funny because it is true, this is the part that burns my ass! Fuck you government! And fuck you grifters feeding off of these legitimate grievances.
So here is my free open source non-grifter idea: set up all of the machinery in the Cayman Islands, with a Dutch sandwich or whatever the fuck is required, anyone who wants in can join. Throw enough lawyers at it so it will stick. Members can drop out of the formal economy and all of their cash earnings get
Fuck you oligarchy. Eat the rich.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:11 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
MetaFilter: total cross-eyed badger spit
posted by chavenet at 2:11 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 2:11 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
The whole sovcit thing is just one of the many manifestations of witchcraft worldview.
When these people look around them and see lawyers in a court of law, or researchers in a science journal, or doctors in a clinic, they don't see people using words, making sense of the world, and persuading judges or persuading peers.
They see people casting spells and making things happen.
Well, if those people can cast spells, they think, so can I.
Remember when you hear one fulminating about marine law or natural names or human coroporations, they're not making a case to change someone's opinion or convince them of something, they're attempting (despite the trappings of "reason") to cast a spell to change reality.
posted by tclark at 2:37 PM on May 11, 2023 [96 favorites]
When these people look around them and see lawyers in a court of law, or researchers in a science journal, or doctors in a clinic, they don't see people using words, making sense of the world, and persuading judges or persuading peers.
They see people casting spells and making things happen.
Well, if those people can cast spells, they think, so can I.
Remember when you hear one fulminating about marine law or natural names or human coroporations, they're not making a case to change someone's opinion or convince them of something, they're attempting (despite the trappings of "reason") to cast a spell to change reality.
posted by tclark at 2:37 PM on May 11, 2023 [96 favorites]
Oh, the UK! That makes sense, since their government was superseded by the EU, and was not formally reestablished following secession. Pretty much anyone who can stage a formal coronation ceremony can declare themselves self-sovereign at this point. All that's required is a non-compensated spiritual dignitary, a crown weighing not less than 700 grams, a level rock to squat on, and enough ermine as required by modesty. Be sure to tag your coronation pictures with the "#crowning" hashtag to ensure that this holds up in court.
posted by phooky at 2:39 PM on May 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by phooky at 2:39 PM on May 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
You can find a very similar mindset in some of the more pathetic meme stock subreddits, where they use "DD" (due diligence) to invoke an intercession by Carl Icahn, Ryan Cohen, Elon Musk, or some other (male) wealthy person who will descend from the heavens to bestow wealth upon them because they are loyal owners of some stupid meme stock.
...there are even ones who still hold the True Sears faith, and believe that their cancelled Sears holdings will be saved the The Redeemer, who will transfer their worthless shares into New Shares that are worth huge sums, and that by this the corrupt institutions of the world will be destroyed and replaced by heaven on earth.
Seriously. Go read them if you don't believe me. Check out CMKM, MMLTP, BBBY, AMC, SHDLQ etc. subreddits (there are many many splinter groups). It's amazing to watch them devolve.
posted by aramaic at 3:11 PM on May 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
...there are even ones who still hold the True Sears faith, and believe that their cancelled Sears holdings will be saved the The Redeemer, who will transfer their worthless shares into New Shares that are worth huge sums, and that by this the corrupt institutions of the world will be destroyed and replaced by heaven on earth.
Seriously. Go read them if you don't believe me. Check out CMKM, MMLTP, BBBY, AMC, SHDLQ etc. subreddits (there are many many splinter groups). It's amazing to watch them devolve.
posted by aramaic at 3:11 PM on May 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
In times of insomnia I sometimes watch a crime porn thing called Court TV.
The sovcit shows up occasionally and I must say those judges have more self control than I would.
posted by aiq at 3:18 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
The sovcit shows up occasionally and I must say those judges have more self control than I would.
posted by aiq at 3:18 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh so that's why they're called prowed bouys
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 3:30 PM on May 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 3:30 PM on May 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
aramaic: Seriously. Go read them if you don't believe me. Check out CMKM, MMLTP, BBBY, AMC, SHDLQ etc. subreddits (there are many many splinter groups). It's amazing to watch them devolve.
It’s wild, I never thought I’d see DRS fan fiction before, but there it is. I think I’ve used up my lifetime allotment of “that’s not how any of this works!” exclamations.
posted by dr_dank at 3:43 PM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
It’s wild, I never thought I’d see DRS fan fiction before, but there it is. I think I’ve used up my lifetime allotment of “that’s not how any of this works!” exclamations.
posted by dr_dank at 3:43 PM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I just got through the video (great work by münecat!)
A number of years ago in some other MeFi thread on this topic, I compared it to a child's attempt at plumbing - knowing that "plumbing" involves wrenches and pipes, so let's do a lot of putting wrenches on pipes!
And then trust someone else to clean up the mess, of course.
The alchemy analogy in the video is also right on, and I'm glad she distinguises between the ""gurus" who promote this shit online and scam people out of their money, and their marks (who often are the ones ending up in videos showing just how well this tends to go in practice.)
I could go on and on, but any point I could make, münecat makes better, so I won't. But this was a great find.
posted by Navelgazer at 4:19 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
A number of years ago in some other MeFi thread on this topic, I compared it to a child's attempt at plumbing - knowing that "plumbing" involves wrenches and pipes, so let's do a lot of putting wrenches on pipes!
And then trust someone else to clean up the mess, of course.
The alchemy analogy in the video is also right on, and I'm glad she distinguises between the ""gurus" who promote this shit online and scam people out of their money, and their marks (who often are the ones ending up in videos showing just how well this tends to go in practice.)
I could go on and on, but any point I could make, münecat makes better, so I won't. But this was a great find.
posted by Navelgazer at 4:19 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Metafilter: Am I free to leave?
yes, any time you want, but you can never check out.
posted by philip-random at 4:49 PM on May 11, 2023 [19 favorites]
yes, any time you want, but you can never check out.
posted by philip-random at 4:49 PM on May 11, 2023 [19 favorites]
🏃⚪
posted by clavdivs at 5:49 PM on May 11, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 5:49 PM on May 11, 2023 [16 favorites]
yes, any time you want, but you can never check out.
Welcome to the Coattail Halifornia?
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:54 PM on May 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Welcome to the Coattail Halifornia?
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:54 PM on May 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
If I watch this video is YouTube going to turn all my recommendations into wacko stuff?.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:03 PM on May 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:03 PM on May 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
As a freeman-on-the-land, Youtube cannot force your corporation to enter joinder with their suggestion algorithm if you watch the video in an incognito/private window.
(I just did a normal link on this one, but anytime I get anywhere remotely near more toxic fashy people, I always use incognito.)
posted by tclark at 6:07 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
(I just did a normal link on this one, but anytime I get anywhere remotely near more toxic fashy people, I always use incognito.)
posted by tclark at 6:07 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Basically, Incognito mode hides your browsing activity from other users on your device. But Incognito mode doesn't hide your info from websites, advertisers, your Internet service provider (ISP), or Big Tech companies. Even in Incognito mode, Google and others can still track you."
Google
(Bastards)
posted by mmrtnt at 6:24 PM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
(Bastards)
posted by mmrtnt at 6:24 PM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
The whole sovcit thing is just one of the many manifestations of witchcraft worldview.
When these people look around them and see lawyers in a court of law, or researchers in a science journal, or doctors in a clinic, they don't see people using words, making sense of the world, and persuading judges or persuading peers
If you want to look at the Chinese world, might as well settle in and expect it to be its own thing - this is pretty much the dynamic for the folk religion side that has developed its own ersatz govt processes and rituals. Centuries now.
posted by cendawanita at 6:26 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
When these people look around them and see lawyers in a court of law, or researchers in a science journal, or doctors in a clinic, they don't see people using words, making sense of the world, and persuading judges or persuading peers
If you want to look at the Chinese world, might as well settle in and expect it to be its own thing - this is pretty much the dynamic for the folk religion side that has developed its own ersatz govt processes and rituals. Centuries now.
posted by cendawanita at 6:26 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
As you can see, sir, my underwear is decorated with the gold fringe of the admiralty, so as long as my head is in this toilet I am subject only to maritime law.
posted by mhoye at 6:36 PM on May 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 6:36 PM on May 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
I was absolutely shocked to see some minorities show up in these clips
One of the most famous people to try a sovereign citizen defense (and get thrown in prison for it) for income tax evasion is Wesley Snipes.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:44 PM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
One of the most famous people to try a sovereign citizen defense (and get thrown in prison for it) for income tax evasion is Wesley Snipes.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:44 PM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
So, Terry Nichols, eh? No mention of Timothy McVeigh anywhere?
That's a small quibble, but it's a weird omission.
I've dealt with these people before. Had one as an employee for a while, which was a charming thing because he was in and out of a lot of places across a day and it took me a while and a bit of strategy to figure out how to get him to be less hot and less SovCit when he was out in a company uniform. He eventually pissed off a customer enough that he was let go, and I have no idea what happened to him after that.
Living pretty close to the Idaho panhandle, there's a lot of crazy going on around here. Sigh.
posted by hippybear at 7:01 PM on May 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
That's a small quibble, but it's a weird omission.
I've dealt with these people before. Had one as an employee for a while, which was a charming thing because he was in and out of a lot of places across a day and it took me a while and a bit of strategy to figure out how to get him to be less hot and less SovCit when he was out in a company uniform. He eventually pissed off a customer enough that he was let go, and I have no idea what happened to him after that.
Living pretty close to the Idaho panhandle, there's a lot of crazy going on around here. Sigh.
posted by hippybear at 7:01 PM on May 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
She does mention 2 "notable" Canadians in that movement, Robert Arthur Menard and Dean Clifford, which is a bit of deep dive. I had been wondering if we had exported our Magna Carta tinged version of the freeman-on-the-land to the UK.
posted by Ashwagandha at 7:25 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Ashwagandha at 7:25 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: Joinder? But I hardly know her!
posted by jonp72 at 7:35 PM on May 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by jonp72 at 7:35 PM on May 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
My fav Sovcit encounter was when I had to assess someone for a competency to stand trial report (because they'd been sending bunches of weird messages and documents to the judge) and just getting them to verify their identity took over 30 minutes and involved going through multiple binders of crazypants nonsense moonlaw stuff. Afterwards, they issued me with a "demand" for several million dollars. Interestingly, although they denied the legitimacy and indeed independent or sovereign existence of the United States, the Federal Reserve and its "scrip," they declined an offer of several million "meehawlbucks" and said they could only accept this Federal Reserve "scrip" as payment.
posted by meehawl at 8:09 PM on May 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by meehawl at 8:09 PM on May 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
Yeah, there are entire YT channels devoted to covering SovCits and their antics (mostly in the U.S. but also in the U.K. and Australia). Some of them also branch out and cover so-called "first amendment auditors" (a.k.a. "frauditors") and "copwatchers" who are more interested in provoking folks for clicks, donations, power-trips and (most likely as their endgame) a nice fat lawsuit than in actually protecting our rights. (Moors occasionally get a look in as well). And of course, there are some folks who transcend categories and have descended straight into psychopathy, sometimes with a nice dose of narcissism and/or drug abuse thrown in for good measure. (Regular watchers of said channels would recognize the folks in question.)
In case you're interested in SovCits having more fun with judges and traffic stops, Van Balion and Team Skeptic are good folks to follow. Just be prepared to occasionally be frustrated when a cop lets a SovCit without license, tags, or insurance go on his/her merry way instead of towing his/her car. And there are one or two vids that show some gunplay...
posted by gtrwolf at 9:07 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
In case you're interested in SovCits having more fun with judges and traffic stops, Van Balion and Team Skeptic are good folks to follow. Just be prepared to occasionally be frustrated when a cop lets a SovCit without license, tags, or insurance go on his/her merry way instead of towing his/her car. And there are one or two vids that show some gunplay...
posted by gtrwolf at 9:07 PM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Basically, Incognito mode hides your browsing activity from other users on your device. But Incognito mode doesn't hide your info from websites, advertisers, your Internet service provider (ISP), or Big Tech companies. Even in Incognito mode, Google and others can still track you."
I don't use incognito to remain anonymous or impossible for various people to track (there are some actually useful means for to avoid lazy corporate surveillance, if you're willing to go to some lengths, and have above-average tech savvy). I go incognito sometimes on Youtube because from the very moment I once watched a Russell Brand video, I got fashy recommendations for weeks, but since using incognito to watch videos that get vaguely near that (or even explicitly watching trainwrecks by Crowder and the like), Even if Youtube knows someone in my house watched it, they at least have the restraint, or no way to know it's me with enough certainty so as not to fash up all my recommendations.
And I'm fairly sure they're not avoiding recommending Crowder videos because of restraint.
posted by tclark at 9:08 PM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't use incognito to remain anonymous or impossible for various people to track (there are some actually useful means for to avoid lazy corporate surveillance, if you're willing to go to some lengths, and have above-average tech savvy). I go incognito sometimes on Youtube because from the very moment I once watched a Russell Brand video, I got fashy recommendations for weeks, but since using incognito to watch videos that get vaguely near that (or even explicitly watching trainwrecks by Crowder and the like), Even if Youtube knows someone in my house watched it, they at least have the restraint, or no way to know it's me with enough certainty so as not to fash up all my recommendations.
And I'm fairly sure they're not avoiding recommending Crowder videos because of restraint.
posted by tclark at 9:08 PM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
One advantage of growing up in a place where you couldn't throw a rock without hitting somebody who had a stack of sovereign citizen pamphlets on their coffee table is that it has a great inoculation effect. The way they talked about it was just offputting and it far too often overlapped with conspiracy theory bullshit that I only later came to realize was really about Jews running the world because at the time in the late 80s and early 90s most of the nuts had the good sense not to be so obvious about being racists. That's not to say I haven't always found some amusement in listening to their alternate reality shit. The same kind I get from the SCP files.
Needless to say, it was not a surprise to me when so many of the adults I knew as a kid ended up going to jail after deciding to not pay taxes or child support or something because they were just certain they had found the correct incantations to free themselves of the gold fringed flags of the admiralty court. What was a surprise to me was when an actual practicing attorney who had an office next door to my Dad's ended up being disbarred and going to prison over it.
It is somewhat worrisome how they seem to be becoming more common now that they're spreading their message with increasingly respectable looking web sites rather than passing around shitty mimeographs or publishing websites that have the outward appearance of being made by a crackpot or a mid 90s teen with all the colors and gifs of waving flags, terrible background images that make the ALL CAPS TEXT even harder to read, and every other indicia of unreliability you could possibly imagine.
What's really sad is that they're still stuck on the same tired conspiracy theories and the same tired strategies they were then. Nobody learns, largely because the law ignores them for so long they think their spells are working and somehow seeing the hammer come down as it always does eventually does not dissuade them.
posted by wierdo at 3:14 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Needless to say, it was not a surprise to me when so many of the adults I knew as a kid ended up going to jail after deciding to not pay taxes or child support or something because they were just certain they had found the correct incantations to free themselves of the gold fringed flags of the admiralty court. What was a surprise to me was when an actual practicing attorney who had an office next door to my Dad's ended up being disbarred and going to prison over it.
It is somewhat worrisome how they seem to be becoming more common now that they're spreading their message with increasingly respectable looking web sites rather than passing around shitty mimeographs or publishing websites that have the outward appearance of being made by a crackpot or a mid 90s teen with all the colors and gifs of waving flags, terrible background images that make the ALL CAPS TEXT even harder to read, and every other indicia of unreliability you could possibly imagine.
What's really sad is that they're still stuck on the same tired conspiracy theories and the same tired strategies they were then. Nobody learns, largely because the law ignores them for so long they think their spells are working and somehow seeing the hammer come down as it always does eventually does not dissuade them.
posted by wierdo at 3:14 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
I could exchange "religious fundamentalist" with many of the sovcit examples above and it would fit better than a random Mad Libs.
posted by djseafood at 5:46 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by djseafood at 5:46 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Afterwards, they issued me with a "demand" for several million dollars.
You’re lucky they didn’t file a lien against your property. That’s a very common tactic these nutbags employ against people they get pissed at. And, it can be extremely difficult to remove a lien once it’s filed, especially if you’re going up against a SovCit, because they will utterly bomb you and the court with all manner of idiot paperwork, costing you real money.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:44 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
You’re lucky they didn’t file a lien against your property. That’s a very common tactic these nutbags employ against people they get pissed at. And, it can be extremely difficult to remove a lien once it’s filed, especially if you’re going up against a SovCit, because they will utterly bomb you and the court with all manner of idiot paperwork, costing you real money.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:44 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
I would feel remiss if a sovereign citizen thread went by and I didn't mention David-Wynn: Miller, who came up with his own brand of legalese by supposedly discovering "the mathematical interface in the truth that certifies all 5,000 languages, frontwards and backwards". It looked like this:
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:49 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
FOR THE FORMS OF OUR PUNCTUATIONS ARE WITH THE CLAIM OF THE USE: FULL-COLON=POSITION-LODIO-FACTS, HYPHEN=COMPOUND-FACTS =KNOWN, PERIOD=END-THOUGHT, COMMA-PAUSE, AND LOCATION-TILDES WITH THE MEANINGS AND USES OF THE COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE FULL-COLON OF THE POSITION-LODIAL-FACT-PHRASE WITH THE FACT/KNOWN-TERM OF THE POSITIONAL-LODIO-FACT-PHRASE AND WITH THE VOID OF THE NOM-DE-GUERRE = DEAD-PERSON.His entire website was written like that, and he used to teach seminars on how to use this kind of language in court filings. It may shock you to learn that it never worked.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:49 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
If anyone wants to see a really disturbing version of this in action, a redditor is doing the reddit equivalent of live tweeting an attempted murder trial after a SovCiv shot his friend (who was helping the SovCiv's ex-wife move her stuff out). The judge has been putting him (the SovCiv) in the time out booth because he has been so disruptive. The subreddit is r/behindthebastards.
Part 1
Part 2
posted by Hactar at 7:53 AM on May 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Part 1
Part 2
posted by Hactar at 7:53 AM on May 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Regarding SovCit minorities, there are a number of Black SovCit groups that are largely Moorish Science Temple adjacent, e.g. Washitaw Nation.
posted by zamboni at 9:02 AM on May 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by zamboni at 9:02 AM on May 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Speaking of subreddits, r/amibeingdetained is also a good source for this sort of thing, specializing in traffic stops. This one might be my favorite; the sovcit is the son of, I kid you not, a local county clerk.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:02 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:02 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
What zero Marx does to a mf.
posted by Reyturner at 9:19 AM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Reyturner at 9:19 AM on May 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
NOTE: I was absolutely shocked to see some minorities show up in these clips, as if the "I'm special so listen to my wordy words and research" would work for them in court!
The idea of “cheat codes” to defeat the system is pretty popular among people who are used to feeling like they are on the wrong side of the system. The idea of getting rich quick is pretty popular among people who are poor.
posted by atoxyl at 10:22 AM on May 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
The idea of “cheat codes” to defeat the system is pretty popular among people who are used to feeling like they are on the wrong side of the system. The idea of getting rich quick is pretty popular among people who are poor.
posted by atoxyl at 10:22 AM on May 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Speaking of "cheat codes", if you want to watch the youtubes without being tracked, see if there's an invidious instance that works for you. Check invidio.us for a list of instances. If the video doesn't load for you on the first one you pick, there's a button to try the same vid on a different instance. It works somewhat spottily for me due to my somewhat paranoiac script-blocker settings, but others have reported satisfactory results.
I'm not part of whomever makes the software, but when i had friends some of them deployed an instance that i used happily (whilst their computer was working)
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 10:57 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not part of whomever makes the software, but when i had friends some of them deployed an instance that i used happily (whilst their computer was working)
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 10:57 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
She does mention 2 "notable" Canadians in that movement, Robert Arthur Menard and Dean Clifford, which is a bit of deep dive. I had been wondering if we had exported our Magna Carta tinged version of the freeman-on-the-land to the UK.
Heh. I was kind of wondering about that too when I got to that part.
There's also Gauthier, who was declared a vexatious litigant in 2017 to stop him from doing stuff like this:
He wished to commence an action alleging that the police had no right to stop him from driving without insurance and while unauthorized.
My understanding is that you have to go the extra couple of miles into unhinged-asshole territory to get courts in any place in Canada to declare you a vexatious litigant because it's an extreme step.
But as a non-lawyer, I'm fairly confident in stating that you can't modify court forms like this:
The Statement of Claim is also unusual in that Gauthier has scratched out elements of the standard Alberta Rules of Court, Alta Reg 124/2010 [the “Rules” or individually a “Rule”] Form 10 and replaced “Plaintiff(s)” with “Prosecutor(s)”, and “Defendant(s)” with “Wrongdoer(s).
The judge in a similar case, Meads v. Meads came up with "Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Arguments" as a framework for talking about what they're on about:
This Court has developed a new awareness and understanding of a category of vexatious litigant. As we shall see, while there is often a lack of homogeneity, and some individuals or groups have no name or special identity, they (by their own admission or by descriptions given by others) often fall into the following descriptions: Detaxers; Freemen or Freemen-on-the-Land; Sovereign Men or Sovereign Citizens; Church of the Ecumenical Redemption International (CERI); Moorish Law; and other labels - there is no closed list. In the absence of a better moniker, I have collectively labelled them as Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument litigants [“OPCA litigants”], to functionally define them collectively for what they literally are. These persons employ a collection of techniques and arguments promoted and sold by ‘gurus’ (as hereafter defined) to disrupt court operations and to attempt to frustrate the legal rights of governments, corporations, and individuals.
Over a decade of reported cases have proven that the individual concepts advanced by OPCA litigants are invalid. What remains is to categorize these schemes and concepts, identify global defects to simplify future response to variations of identified and invalid OPCA themes, and develop court procedures and sanctions for persons who adopt and advance these vexatious litigation strategies.
One participant in this matter, the Respondent Dennis Larry Meads, appears to be a sophisticated and educated person, but is also an OPCA litigant. One of the purposes of these Reasons is, through this litigant, to uncover, expose, collate, and publish the tactics employed by the OPCA community, as a part of a process to eradicate the growing abuse that these litigants direct towards the justice and legal system we otherwise enjoy in Alberta and across Canada. I will respond on a point-by-point basis to the broad spectrum of OPCA schemes, concepts, and arguments advanced in this action by Mr. Meads.
This dives into what's followed since: After the Hammer: Six Years of Meads v. Meads, 2019
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:19 PM on May 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Heh. I was kind of wondering about that too when I got to that part.
There's also Gauthier, who was declared a vexatious litigant in 2017 to stop him from doing stuff like this:
He wished to commence an action alleging that the police had no right to stop him from driving without insurance and while unauthorized.
My understanding is that you have to go the extra couple of miles into unhinged-asshole territory to get courts in any place in Canada to declare you a vexatious litigant because it's an extreme step.
But as a non-lawyer, I'm fairly confident in stating that you can't modify court forms like this:
The Statement of Claim is also unusual in that Gauthier has scratched out elements of the standard Alberta Rules of Court, Alta Reg 124/2010 [the “Rules” or individually a “Rule”] Form 10 and replaced “Plaintiff(s)” with “Prosecutor(s)”, and “Defendant(s)” with “Wrongdoer(s).
The judge in a similar case, Meads v. Meads came up with "Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Arguments" as a framework for talking about what they're on about:
This Court has developed a new awareness and understanding of a category of vexatious litigant. As we shall see, while there is often a lack of homogeneity, and some individuals or groups have no name or special identity, they (by their own admission or by descriptions given by others) often fall into the following descriptions: Detaxers; Freemen or Freemen-on-the-Land; Sovereign Men or Sovereign Citizens; Church of the Ecumenical Redemption International (CERI); Moorish Law; and other labels - there is no closed list. In the absence of a better moniker, I have collectively labelled them as Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument litigants [“OPCA litigants”], to functionally define them collectively for what they literally are. These persons employ a collection of techniques and arguments promoted and sold by ‘gurus’ (as hereafter defined) to disrupt court operations and to attempt to frustrate the legal rights of governments, corporations, and individuals.
Over a decade of reported cases have proven that the individual concepts advanced by OPCA litigants are invalid. What remains is to categorize these schemes and concepts, identify global defects to simplify future response to variations of identified and invalid OPCA themes, and develop court procedures and sanctions for persons who adopt and advance these vexatious litigation strategies.
One participant in this matter, the Respondent Dennis Larry Meads, appears to be a sophisticated and educated person, but is also an OPCA litigant. One of the purposes of these Reasons is, through this litigant, to uncover, expose, collate, and publish the tactics employed by the OPCA community, as a part of a process to eradicate the growing abuse that these litigants direct towards the justice and legal system we otherwise enjoy in Alberta and across Canada. I will respond on a point-by-point basis to the broad spectrum of OPCA schemes, concepts, and arguments advanced in this action by Mr. Meads.
This dives into what's followed since: After the Hammer: Six Years of Meads v. Meads, 2019
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:19 PM on May 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
I saw a video a year or so ago where an older female judge was dealing with a guy who wouldn’t admit his name. And the judge said “what did your mother call you?” and he gave his name. And she said “out of respect for your mother, I will also call you [name].” And the guy apparently couldn’t argue with that, and the hearing progressed.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:37 PM on May 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:37 PM on May 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
I liked this comment on the video:
Sofia Lafitte
12 hours ago
It baffles me that these people simultaneously expect both to be recognized by civil servants and that said servants somehow never thought to opt out of the system themselves. Like somehow cops and judges and clerks are taught what screaming “i do not consent” means in a traffic stop while also somehow never deciding to revoke their “contract” as well.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:05 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sofia Lafitte
12 hours ago
It baffles me that these people simultaneously expect both to be recognized by civil servants and that said servants somehow never thought to opt out of the system themselves. Like somehow cops and judges and clerks are taught what screaming “i do not consent” means in a traffic stop while also somehow never deciding to revoke their “contract” as well.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:05 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I find pseudo-law to be endlessly fascinating, because it demonstrates how close to nonsense the law can be; or rather, that what we consider "law" is much closer to these kind of language games than not.
I was an (alternate) juror in a very low stakes trial when I lived in San Francisco that pitted a self-rep against the city, and her ability to bring the proceedings to a screeching halt was really remarkable. She did this not by grandstanding or acting out, but by using the language and the structure of legitimate legal claims and proceedings, to unhinged ends.
posted by tftio at 1:30 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was an (alternate) juror in a very low stakes trial when I lived in San Francisco that pitted a self-rep against the city, and her ability to bring the proceedings to a screeching halt was really remarkable. She did this not by grandstanding or acting out, but by using the language and the structure of legitimate legal claims and proceedings, to unhinged ends.
posted by tftio at 1:30 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Some of these magic words and spells are real, though. Just not as powerful as they think. "I'd rather not, officer" doesn't take effect until it's time to exclude something from being submitted as evidence.
posted by tigrrrlily at 2:08 PM on May 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by tigrrrlily at 2:08 PM on May 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
You’re lucky they didn’t file a lien against your property. That’s a very common tactic these nutbags employ against people they get pissed at. And, it can be extremely difficult to remove a lien once it’s filed, especially if you’re going up against a SovCit, because they will utterly bomb you and the court with all manner of idiot paperwork, costing you real money.
Freemen on the Land (UK SovCits) try to go this route, but the lien process doesn't work here as it does in the USA, as our land registration laws are very different and it's simply not possible to file a lien against someone's property in the UK.
But they think that if they 'publish' on a website (usually a FOTL Facebook Group) that they've issued a lien against someone (usually the CEO of a bank, utility company or head of government department such as HMRC or DWP), that it's binding and that the CEO has agreed to be responsible for all their debts and pay them millions of pounds. Hilariously, they are then utterly astonished to find their cunning plan hasn't worked and they end up with bailiffs at their door, their car impounded and towed, an attachment of earnings order made garnishing their wages, or a charging order against their property, which is an actual legal way of enforcing an outstanding debt by securing it against someone's property.
posted by essexjan at 4:41 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Freemen on the Land (UK SovCits) try to go this route, but the lien process doesn't work here as it does in the USA, as our land registration laws are very different and it's simply not possible to file a lien against someone's property in the UK.
But they think that if they 'publish' on a website (usually a FOTL Facebook Group) that they've issued a lien against someone (usually the CEO of a bank, utility company or head of government department such as HMRC or DWP), that it's binding and that the CEO has agreed to be responsible for all their debts and pay them millions of pounds. Hilariously, they are then utterly astonished to find their cunning plan hasn't worked and they end up with bailiffs at their door, their car impounded and towed, an attachment of earnings order made garnishing their wages, or a charging order against their property, which is an actual legal way of enforcing an outstanding debt by securing it against someone's property.
posted by essexjan at 4:41 PM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
if you want to watch the youtubes without being tracked, see if there's an invidious instance that works for you
Another way to refuse Google's gold fringed offer of joinder is to watch YouTube via FreeTube which suppresses advertising and tracking, lets you maintain a subscription list that's entirely local to your own machine without signing in with a Google ID, and has nice features like coloring parts of the seek bar differently for main content, sponsorship content and self-promotion.
posted by flabdablet at 10:17 PM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Another way to refuse Google's gold fringed offer of joinder is to watch YouTube via FreeTube which suppresses advertising and tracking, lets you maintain a subscription list that's entirely local to your own machine without signing in with a Google ID, and has nice features like coloring parts of the seek bar differently for main content, sponsorship content and self-promotion.
posted by flabdablet at 10:17 PM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
The idea of getting rich quick is pretty popular among people who are poor.
While I'm sure this is generally true worldwide, when I moved to the US I realised it seems to be deeply embedded in the USian psyche much more than elsewhere - everyone thinks that one day they personally will get rich, win the lottery, the big law suit, it's very much part of the social narrative - it's the reason for "Life Styles of the Rich and Famous" and its descendants (like the Kardashians etc)
posted by mbo at 1:52 PM on May 14, 2023
While I'm sure this is generally true worldwide, when I moved to the US I realised it seems to be deeply embedded in the USian psyche much more than elsewhere - everyone thinks that one day they personally will get rich, win the lottery, the big law suit, it's very much part of the social narrative - it's the reason for "Life Styles of the Rich and Famous" and its descendants (like the Kardashians etc)
posted by mbo at 1:52 PM on May 14, 2023
"They talk about getting rich quick. Quick is the only way you can get rich. You just don't live long enough to get rich slow."
The Secrets of Success
posted by philip-random at 2:48 PM on May 14, 2023
The Secrets of Success
posted by philip-random at 2:48 PM on May 14, 2023
I'm trying to think of anything to say just to make a Fremen-on-the-Sand joke.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 7:42 AM on May 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 7:42 AM on May 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
What do you mean, devour me? I do not consent! I DO NOT CONSENT! I demand to speak to your supervisaaaargh
posted by flabdablet at 4:36 AM on May 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 4:36 AM on May 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
The only valid thumpers for attracting Shai-Hulud are the thumpers with gold fringe.
posted by hippybear at 9:59 AM on May 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 9:59 AM on May 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by rikschell at 1:02 PM on May 11, 2023 [41 favorites]