"PGA Tour's goodwill is substantially connected to human rights issues."
June 6, 2023 10:20 AM Subscribe
The PGA has announced a merger (PGA site, NYT) with Saudi-backed LIV Golf.
(Previously, previouslier)
Some PGA members report finding out about it via Twitter. Players have been quoted saying things like "Y’all should be ashamed and have a lot of questions to answer," "It's insanity. The LIV tour was dead in the water. It wasn't working. Now, you're throwing them a life jacket? Is the moral of the story to just always take the money?" and "You don’t trash people [the PIF and Saudi Arabia] like this and then have a sudden drastic change of heart and then go into business with them. There has to be way more to this than we are being told."
(Previously, previouslier)
Some PGA members report finding out about it via Twitter. Players have been quoted saying things like "Y’all should be ashamed and have a lot of questions to answer," "It's insanity. The LIV tour was dead in the water. It wasn't working. Now, you're throwing them a life jacket? Is the moral of the story to just always take the money?" and "You don’t trash people [the PIF and Saudi Arabia] like this and then have a sudden drastic change of heart and then go into business with them. There has to be way more to this than we are being told."
$$$
Hooray. Another reason why I don't follow pro sports.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:26 AM on June 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
Hooray. Another reason why I don't follow pro sports.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:26 AM on June 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
The LIV tour was dead in the water. It wasn't working.
I wasn’t aware LIV was dead in the water. It sure seemed to be making headway, complete with a network tv deal. I’m guessing the Saudis backed a semi filled with cash up to the PGA’s door, and all was well? Well, it is professional golf, which is always about the money.
The big question is, did the Saudis, in fact, just buy the PGA?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:35 AM on June 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
I wasn’t aware LIV was dead in the water. It sure seemed to be making headway, complete with a network tv deal. I’m guessing the Saudis backed a semi filled with cash up to the PGA’s door, and all was well? Well, it is professional golf, which is always about the money.
The big question is, did the Saudis, in fact, just buy the PGA?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:35 AM on June 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
My reaction is the same as the players’ evidently. There was months of coverage singling out the players who went LIV, now they all might as well have done it.
posted by Selena777 at 10:36 AM on June 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 10:36 AM on June 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
So money and corruption wins again. Gross. I actually don't care one whit about golf, but I have many friends that do, and the thought of them having to watch the Bonesaw Opens fills me sadness.
posted by damienbarrett at 10:39 AM on June 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by damienbarrett at 10:39 AM on June 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
Wonder what the LPGA reaction will be. Awful lot of lesbians play golf.
posted by kokaku at 10:48 AM on June 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 10:48 AM on June 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
Putters to be replaced with bone saws.
posted by Nelson at 10:49 AM on June 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 10:49 AM on June 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
kokaku I think you mean a delightful lot of lesbians play golf.
posted by badbobbycase at 10:53 AM on June 6, 2023 [77 favorites]
posted by badbobbycase at 10:53 AM on June 6, 2023 [77 favorites]
I knew things would be heading this way.
posted by staggernation at 10:55 AM on June 6, 2023
posted by staggernation at 10:55 AM on June 6, 2023
Unbelievable timing. Trump might be indicted this week for selling state secrets to Guess Who.
Not to mention every other unsavory, immoral, illegal thing the Saudi government has been involved in, from murdering journalists to 9/11, beyond having the entire trump crime org (and Musk) in their back pocket.
Not that golf was ever noted for its enlightenment.
posted by NorthernLite at 11:05 AM on June 6, 2023 [18 favorites]
Not to mention every other unsavory, immoral, illegal thing the Saudi government has been involved in, from murdering journalists to 9/11, beyond having the entire trump crime org (and Musk) in their back pocket.
Not that golf was ever noted for its enlightenment.
posted by NorthernLite at 11:05 AM on June 6, 2023 [18 favorites]
As Cyndi Lauper said:
Money changes everythingposted by tommasz at 11:10 AM on June 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
I said money, money changes everything
We think we know what we're doing
That don't mean a thing
It's all in the past now
Money changes everything
There's nothing a government or corporation cannot ruin together.
posted by Fizz at 11:19 AM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Fizz at 11:19 AM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
One thing I read was the PGA Tour was going to have substantial legal trouble defending it's non-profit status in the litigation. You can't be a non-profit, and call the players independent contractors, and still bar people who are 'competing' in the LIV from your Tour sanctioned events.
That may be what caused them to cave. If I read correctly, they are still going to maintain the Tour as a non-profit; but the holding company is a for profit in the coming set-up.
ChatGPT has a similar but reverse model where the ChatGPT itself is a for profit, but the holding company is a non-profit.
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:23 AM on June 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
That may be what caused them to cave. If I read correctly, they are still going to maintain the Tour as a non-profit; but the holding company is a for profit in the coming set-up.
ChatGPT has a similar but reverse model where the ChatGPT itself is a for profit, but the holding company is a non-profit.
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:23 AM on June 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
That's what I had also heard indianbadger1. "don't look too closely into our non-profit status", which doesn't work well when you are being sued.
Feel a bit bad for the fringe pros who turned down ridiculous amounts of cash to not jump ship, because the PGA said it was bad. Missed out on millions and millions of dollars, only to have the PGA say, "naw, it's all good now".
posted by Windopaene at 11:27 AM on June 6, 2023
Feel a bit bad for the fringe pros who turned down ridiculous amounts of cash to not jump ship, because the PGA said it was bad. Missed out on millions and millions of dollars, only to have the PGA say, "naw, it's all good now".
posted by Windopaene at 11:27 AM on June 6, 2023
Feel a bit bad for the fringe pros who turned down ridiculous amounts of cash to not jump ship, because the PGA said it was bad.
If the only reason they didn't take the blood money was the risk of consequences, I don't feel that bad for them. Didn't get the opportunity to shill for a murderous regime, how very sad.
posted by Dysk at 11:30 AM on June 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
If the only reason they didn't take the blood money was the risk of consequences, I don't feel that bad for them. Didn't get the opportunity to shill for a murderous regime, how very sad.
posted by Dysk at 11:30 AM on June 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
Now I have to find a way to not give a shit about professional golf even more.
Jokes aside, what did anybody expect? That the PGA was going to hew to a principled stance? Have they ever done anything to realistically give the impression that they would?
posted by axiom at 11:52 AM on June 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
Jokes aside, what did anybody expect? That the PGA was going to hew to a principled stance? Have they ever done anything to realistically give the impression that they would?
posted by axiom at 11:52 AM on June 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
I wasn’t aware LIV was dead in the water. It sure seemed to be making headway, complete with a network tv deal
No, it was an absolute joke. Their "network TV deal" was with the CW of all things. Last week for their event in D.C. their broadcast was on in 5,000 households in that market. A market with six million people.
I realize that the Venn diagram of golf fans and mefites is quite small, but this is an ugly and corrupt thing for reasons well outside of golf. The Saudis principal motivation, as also evidenced by the government buying the four largest football clubs in Saudi Arabia just a few days ago, is sportswashing their brutal dictatorship.
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:53 AM on June 6, 2023 [49 favorites]
No, it was an absolute joke. Their "network TV deal" was with the CW of all things. Last week for their event in D.C. their broadcast was on in 5,000 households in that market. A market with six million people.
I realize that the Venn diagram of golf fans and mefites is quite small, but this is an ugly and corrupt thing for reasons well outside of golf. The Saudis principal motivation, as also evidenced by the government buying the four largest football clubs in Saudi Arabia just a few days ago, is sportswashing their brutal dictatorship.
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:53 AM on June 6, 2023 [49 favorites]
what did anybody expect?
Definitely not this. They were far-and-away out-competing LIV for the product they were serving, and Brooks Koepka aside nobody was missing any of the sell-outs.
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:55 AM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Definitely not this. They were far-and-away out-competing LIV for the product they were serving, and Brooks Koepka aside nobody was missing any of the sell-outs.
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:55 AM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Agree Dysk, throwing in with LIV for cash was shitty.
But, life-changing wads of cash is hard to turn down when you are just hanging on on the tour, and many of your playing partners are taking it.
It is a bad look for the PGA though, regardless.
posted by Windopaene at 11:55 AM on June 6, 2023
But, life-changing wads of cash is hard to turn down when you are just hanging on on the tour, and many of your playing partners are taking it.
It is a bad look for the PGA though, regardless.
posted by Windopaene at 11:55 AM on June 6, 2023
Their "network TV deal" was with the CW of all things.
And not even the good version of the CW that used to run Arrow, The Flash, and Legends of Tomorrow!
posted by Servo5678 at 11:56 AM on June 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
And not even the good version of the CW that used to run Arrow, The Flash, and Legends of Tomorrow!
posted by Servo5678 at 11:56 AM on June 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
Their "network TV deal" was with the CW of all things
Right between Moesha and an all-new Dawson’s Creek.
posted by dr_dank at 12:14 PM on June 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
Right between Moesha and an all-new Dawson’s Creek.
posted by dr_dank at 12:14 PM on June 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
Via Twitter, reproduced here in its entirety:
"As part of the merger, the PGA will control holes 1-8 and 12-18.
The Saudis do 9-11."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:17 PM on June 6, 2023 [112 favorites]
"As part of the merger, the PGA will control holes 1-8 and 12-18.
The Saudis do 9-11."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:17 PM on June 6, 2023 [112 favorites]
LIV golf was controlled by the only group more unsavory than the PGA. If it had been bankrolled by North Korea or China or the GOP party it would have been easy to wish to see them triumph,
posted by Keith Talent at 12:25 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Keith Talent at 12:25 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
At the risk of some overgeneralization, but probably not too unfairly made, have golfers and people who watch golf as a group generally cared all that much about human rights to begin with? This isn't like the WNBA, say, which has been pushing on civil rights pretty much since the BLM marches. Once the checks clear, the media will probably move on to business as usual.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:34 PM on June 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:34 PM on June 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I'm going to go with overgeneralization, there. I know all kinds of people who are golfers, from the people you were probably thinking of to famous punks you probably weren't.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:41 PM on June 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:41 PM on June 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
Maybe appeal to the PGA watchers supposed patriotism? Lol... sorry, really trying to be constructive, but we all know that's only going to peel of a small percentage of their audience.
posted by kokaku at 12:59 PM on June 6, 2023
posted by kokaku at 12:59 PM on June 6, 2023
With Jack Dorsey starting to gather information about Trump's involvement with LIV, I'm wondering if there was some amount of "we're going to have to pivot and quickly" moment within the Saudi Fund management for some reason.
I'm not expressing that clearly, but I think maybe you get what I'm thinking.
Also, I'm entirely unable to look at LIV and not have my brain interpret it as Fifty-Four. Too many years looking at roman numerals at the end of movies.
posted by hippybear at 1:06 PM on June 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm not expressing that clearly, but I think maybe you get what I'm thinking.
Also, I'm entirely unable to look at LIV and not have my brain interpret it as Fifty-Four. Too many years looking at roman numerals at the end of movies.
posted by hippybear at 1:06 PM on June 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
With Jack Dorsey starting to gather information about Trump's involvement with LIV, I'm wondering if there was some amount of "we're going to have to pivot and quickly" moment within the Saudi Fund management for some reason.
Totally fair, and the corruption connection between the U.S.'s worst family and LIV is 100% a thing.
However, this very much looks like the PGA tour capitulating to the Saudis, not the other way around. Pivoting to getting significant ownership and leadership of the PGA tour is a hell of a win if you're concerned about the status quo.
posted by mcstayinskool at 1:10 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Totally fair, and the corruption connection between the U.S.'s worst family and LIV is 100% a thing.
However, this very much looks like the PGA tour capitulating to the Saudis, not the other way around. Pivoting to getting significant ownership and leadership of the PGA tour is a hell of a win if you're concerned about the status quo.
posted by mcstayinskool at 1:10 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
With Jack Dorsey starting to gather information about Trump's involvement with LIV
I think you mean special prosecutor Jack Smith?
Jack Dorsey was the founder of Twitter.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:13 PM on June 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think you mean special prosecutor Jack Smith?
Jack Dorsey was the founder of Twitter.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:13 PM on June 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
Didn't get the opportunity to shill for a murderous regime, how very sad.
There is an uncomfortable conversation you'd have to have with yourself. You turned down millions for ethical reasons with the owners and now they just bought up the only alternative. Keep playing for the PGA or go teach someplace?
posted by Mitheral at 1:22 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
There is an uncomfortable conversation you'd have to have with yourself. You turned down millions for ethical reasons with the owners and now they just bought up the only alternative. Keep playing for the PGA or go teach someplace?
posted by Mitheral at 1:22 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe the PGA decision makers didn't want to end up chainsawed and put into baggies at some point in the future?
posted by srboisvert at 1:43 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 1:43 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
HippyBear, LIV literally stands for 54, as in three round no-cut tournaments (18 x 3 = 54 holes) rather than four round tournaments with a cut after the first two rounds.
The PGA Tour was headed for a very nasty litigation beat by LIV that would have had ramifications beyond -- far beyond -- the damages they were going to pay, but even getting those damages LIV was going to be 10-figure black hole for the Saudis.
So the settlement makes sense for both parties (as settlements usually do).
PGA Tour could have avoided this by playing cool: "We welcome LIV to the world of golf; the more sponsors, the better. We wish Phil and Brooks the best, and of course look forward to seeing top LIV and PGA Tour players compete against each other in the majors and with each other in national play."
posted by MattD at 1:44 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
The PGA Tour was headed for a very nasty litigation beat by LIV that would have had ramifications beyond -- far beyond -- the damages they were going to pay, but even getting those damages LIV was going to be 10-figure black hole for the Saudis.
So the settlement makes sense for both parties (as settlements usually do).
PGA Tour could have avoided this by playing cool: "We welcome LIV to the world of golf; the more sponsors, the better. We wish Phil and Brooks the best, and of course look forward to seeing top LIV and PGA Tour players compete against each other in the majors and with each other in national play."
posted by MattD at 1:44 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Right between Moesha and an all-new Dawson’s Creek.
Hey, Moesha was a perfectly respectable show, unlike LIV.
Also, it aired on UPN.
posted by eckeric at 1:47 PM on June 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
Hey, Moesha was a perfectly respectable show, unlike LIV.
Also, it aired on UPN.
posted by eckeric at 1:47 PM on June 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
I know all kinds of people who are golfers, from the people you were probably thinking of to famous punks you probably weren't.
Like Max Headroom!
posted by credulous at 2:04 PM on June 6, 2023
Like Max Headroom!
posted by credulous at 2:04 PM on June 6, 2023
And this dude, MBS's pal Yasir Al-Rumayyan, is the new chairman of a new PGA Tour/LIV Golf entity.
PIF is paying big $$$ as part of the merger
posted by Hash at 2:42 PM on June 6, 2023
PIF is paying big $$$ as part of the merger
posted by Hash at 2:42 PM on June 6, 2023
Waiting for the link to the article that ranks the best golf tours....
posted by MorgansAmoebas at 2:45 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by MorgansAmoebas at 2:45 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
A co-worker is an avid golfer, and super Trumpy conservative type of guy and he is appalled by this. I talked to a friend who works in golf media and this is going over like a fart in a spacesuit. Gonna be curious to see what happens going forward, if a lot of PGA guys decide to break away. This news is not playing g well at all with pretty much anyone.
posted by azpenguin at 2:50 PM on June 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by azpenguin at 2:50 PM on June 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
Was this part of Jared's $2BN deal, combined with T***p's Iran document? Shaping up to be the sequel to Icarus...
posted by Chuffy at 3:03 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 3:03 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have to admit I am finding it a bit funny that lots of millionaires with managers, agents and financial advisors in the tory-est of all sports are just now finding out that when an organization says "We're all family and we value your loyalty" they mean the opposite.
posted by srboisvert at 3:11 PM on June 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 3:11 PM on June 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think you mean special prosecutor Jack Smith?
Jack Dorsey was the founder of Twitter.
Yes yes, of course. The name felt wrong while I was typing it but I'm tired and didn't bother to open another window and google the name.
posted by hippybear at 3:13 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Jack Dorsey was the founder of Twitter.
Yes yes, of course. The name felt wrong while I was typing it but I'm tired and didn't bother to open another window and google the name.
posted by hippybear at 3:13 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
By the end of the week, it is my most fervent wish that Insane Clown Posse announce the institution of Juggalo Championship Golf to bring the sport back to where it belongs -- with the people.
Top players and classic courses and facepaint and Faygo and windmills and ramps on every green.
posted by delfin at 3:29 PM on June 6, 2023 [33 favorites]
Top players and classic courses and facepaint and Faygo and windmills and ramps on every green.
posted by delfin at 3:29 PM on June 6, 2023 [33 favorites]
Blech! Color me totally disgusted
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 3:39 PM on June 6, 2023
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 3:39 PM on June 6, 2023
"As part of the merger, the PGA will control holes 1-8 and 12-18.This joke is great, but could have used another edit pass:
The Saudis do 9-11."
"With the merger, the PGA controls holes 1-8 and 12-18.
The Saudis are responsible for 9-11."
posted by 3j0hn at 4:12 PM on June 6, 2023 [47 favorites]
They sucked… yes, let’s do judge people who play a sport you don’t like. I think all NBA players are pituitary cases.
posted by Ideefixe at 4:52 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 4:52 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wonder what the LPGA reaction will be.
They probably won’t like it when the Saudis tell them they can’t drive golf carts.
(It’s a joke. I am aware that pro golfers don’t use carts and that the kingdom has fairly recently relaxed its ban on women operating motor vehicles.)
posted by box at 5:17 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
They probably won’t like it when the Saudis tell them they can’t drive golf carts.
(It’s a joke. I am aware that pro golfers don’t use carts and that the kingdom has fairly recently relaxed its ban on women operating motor vehicles.)
posted by box at 5:17 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I'm going to go with overgeneralization, there. I know all kinds of people who are golfers, from the people you were probably thinking of to famous punks you probably weren't.
you can let Macklemore defend himself
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:05 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
you can let Macklemore defend himself
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:05 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Does sports washing even work anymore? The World Cup in Qatar seems to have generated a lot of negative publicity. We were all ready to assume that they murdered Grant Wahl! At the last minute, they refused to sell beer in the venues! There was a missile strike at an F1 race in Saudi Arabia! The drivers went on record saying things like, “This is scary and terrible and we hate it here.” The LIV thing annoyed golf fans and had pro golfers giving quotes about how disgusting Saudi policies are. Nothing about these events suggests that these countries are normal and good.
posted by chrchr at 6:08 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 6:08 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
So, can the golf folks tell me about the Zurich classic? Is that PGA?
Stranded Assets. All that oil isn't worth anything and the futures must be spent
posted by eustatic at 6:27 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Stranded Assets. All that oil isn't worth anything and the futures must be spent
posted by eustatic at 6:27 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Kevin Clark for the Ringer:
[Rory] McIlroy and the rest of the PGA loyalists learned a very valuable lesson about modern sports (or modern life) on Tuesday: If you do not sell out, someone will sell you out.posted by chrchr at 6:40 PM on June 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
This news is not playing g well at all with pretty much anyone.
What's astonishing to me is not that the PGA settled to avoid a lawsuit that would've jeopardized its nonprofit status - what's astonishing to me is how absolutely badly they've handled this announcement. Like, how do you have these organizations, with this much money in play, and just -- nobody involved thought to hire a PR firm to handle this major announcement?
This is the biggest absolutely unforced public relations fail (and not just the public, but also a player-relations fail) I've seen in a while. I mean sure, there's no real way around the fact that this is a turd, but you'd think somebody would've at least attempted to polish it a little, y'know?
posted by mstokes650 at 6:50 PM on June 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
What's astonishing to me is not that the PGA settled to avoid a lawsuit that would've jeopardized its nonprofit status - what's astonishing to me is how absolutely badly they've handled this announcement. Like, how do you have these organizations, with this much money in play, and just -- nobody involved thought to hire a PR firm to handle this major announcement?
This is the biggest absolutely unforced public relations fail (and not just the public, but also a player-relations fail) I've seen in a while. I mean sure, there's no real way around the fact that this is a turd, but you'd think somebody would've at least attempted to polish it a little, y'know?
posted by mstokes650 at 6:50 PM on June 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Nothing about these events suggests that these countries are normal and good.
And yet the F1 races in Qatar and Saudi have kinda become just some more races in the calendar. It gets those countries into people's consciousness, not in the context of civil unrest but as a place you might go on holiday, right alongside Miami and Singapore. The football was similar - the Guardian was busy wagging its finger, and the TV coverage paid brief lip service to the issues for about two minutes at the start is way programme, but that was dwarfed by images of tourists and football fans having a good time, being interviewed about how good a time they were having. Tourist board ads in the breaks.
It works. It normalises these places as places you might go, moves them out of the mental category with Iran and North Korea.
posted by Dysk at 6:50 PM on June 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
And yet the F1 races in Qatar and Saudi have kinda become just some more races in the calendar. It gets those countries into people's consciousness, not in the context of civil unrest but as a place you might go on holiday, right alongside Miami and Singapore. The football was similar - the Guardian was busy wagging its finger, and the TV coverage paid brief lip service to the issues for about two minutes at the start is way programme, but that was dwarfed by images of tourists and football fans having a good time, being interviewed about how good a time they were having. Tourist board ads in the breaks.
It works. It normalises these places as places you might go, moves them out of the mental category with Iran and North Korea.
posted by Dysk at 6:50 PM on June 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
My dad, who would have turned 105 in April if he were still with us, was a golfer and enjoyed watching PGA golf on the weekends. He worked in technical oilfield sales in the 50s/60s/70s/80s and while we never lived "in the compound", we knew people who did and heard all the apocryphal (and generally racist and Islamophobic tbh) stories. I can only imagine how he would have reacted to this but it would have been Not Good even before the current regime got into murdering journalists and expecting, apparently correctly, that it wouldn't impair their ability to do business.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 7:48 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by gentlyepigrams at 7:48 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
it's like there's a secret contest underway to see which of the major global sporting entities can be the first to realize the Platonic form of Shittiest Sportball Association.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:05 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:05 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
It gets those countries into people's consciousness, not in the context of civil unrest but as a place you might go on holiday,
According to them I'm a terrorist so no thank you very much.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:09 PM on June 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
According to them I'm a terrorist so no thank you very much.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:09 PM on June 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am wondering when players statements are going to start to emerge. From what I understand, they were as taken by surprise by this as the general public. If you're a sporting league dependent on your players' participation, it's generally good form to consult with them before you do a Big Deal Thing.
posted by hippybear at 8:24 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 8:24 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
What happened to etiquette on the course? Is it just money and green/sports washing now? Fuck the PGA. This is just fuckery on a grand scale.
posted by shoesfullofdust at 8:52 PM on June 6, 2023
posted by shoesfullofdust at 8:52 PM on June 6, 2023
At first I was ready to chime in say I agreed with everything chrchr said, but Dysk's cynicism has won me over, I'm afraid to say.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 10:10 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 10:10 PM on June 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
It works. It normalises these places as places you might go, moves them out of the mental category with Iran and North Korea.
See also WWE's deal with Saudi Arabia, which, if you look at it, even at $50 million a year, WWE got bought cheap. Two shows a year, constantly hyped, complete with full on propaganda/tourism promos, that's an incredible publicity deal. Fans don't even bat an eyelash at the company's female wrestlers suddenly wearing full-body covering outfits, and their participation was trumpeted as a "hey, look how the kingdom is changing!" moment. That's not even getting into this last show, where Sami Zayn wrestled there for the first time since 2014, and whatever Syria/Saudi politics that was going on was swept under the rug for heartwarming "Look, he's speaking Arabic, and the fans love him" stuff. Even at $500 million over ten years, Saudi Arabia got a great deal.
(It was, honestly, pretty awesome, and says something about WWE that shouldn't need to be said, but I saw people praising the company because he's the only person of Middle-Eastern descent to never be given an outright racist gimmick)
posted by Ghidorah at 11:36 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
See also WWE's deal with Saudi Arabia, which, if you look at it, even at $50 million a year, WWE got bought cheap. Two shows a year, constantly hyped, complete with full on propaganda/tourism promos, that's an incredible publicity deal. Fans don't even bat an eyelash at the company's female wrestlers suddenly wearing full-body covering outfits, and their participation was trumpeted as a "hey, look how the kingdom is changing!" moment. That's not even getting into this last show, where Sami Zayn wrestled there for the first time since 2014, and whatever Syria/Saudi politics that was going on was swept under the rug for heartwarming "Look, he's speaking Arabic, and the fans love him" stuff. Even at $500 million over ten years, Saudi Arabia got a great deal.
(It was, honestly, pretty awesome, and says something about WWE that shouldn't need to be said, but I saw people praising the company because he's the only person of Middle-Eastern descent to never be given an outright racist gimmick)
posted by Ghidorah at 11:36 PM on June 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
According to them I'm a terrorist so no thank you very much.
Trust me, they think far worse of me, and in ways I could not hope to hide. I don't even get to choose to not go.
But, however principled you personally are, they don't care. You're one person. There's still loads of people travelling to these events, booking hotels, or watching them on TV and coming away with a good time and positive associations. They wouldn't keep spending this bulk money if it didn't work.
posted by Dysk at 12:44 AM on June 7, 2023
Trust me, they think far worse of me, and in ways I could not hope to hide. I don't even get to choose to not go.
But, however principled you personally are, they don't care. You're one person. There's still loads of people travelling to these events, booking hotels, or watching them on TV and coming away with a good time and positive associations. They wouldn't keep spending this bulk money if it didn't work.
posted by Dysk at 12:44 AM on June 7, 2023
Capital punishment for homosexuality (Saudi Arabia has stoning to death for homosexual acts.) 2019: Mass Execution in Saudi Arabia Kills 5 Linked to Homosexual Acts.
Is the PGA going to have tournaments in Saudi Arabia? How will they guarantee the safety of their players, staff, and any fans attending?
posted by Nelson at 1:18 AM on June 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Is the PGA going to have tournaments in Saudi Arabia? How will they guarantee the safety of their players, staff, and any fans attending?
posted by Nelson at 1:18 AM on June 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Based on the F1, and the world cup in Qatar, I suspect they'll have a carve-out for PGA staff while at work or on the course (off camera, of course). Everyone else (i.e. fans) are on their own, and can take their chances. Remember all the official advice from FIFA, UEFA, the UK government to just "respect cultural differences" and try not to let on that you were gay if you wanted to go watch the footy.
posted by Dysk at 2:16 AM on June 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 2:16 AM on June 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree it's unlikely Saudi Arabia would want a public international incident where they arrest or murder a PGA player. (Although ask Britney Griner what guarantee to safety being a sports figure is.) But if there is a carve out the least PGA could do is make sure it's written down and public. If nothing else then to guarantee it's real.
As for "respect cultural differences", is anyone saying that out loud in the west? International human rights should overrule murderous religious edicts.
posted by Nelson at 2:55 AM on June 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
As for "respect cultural differences", is anyone saying that out loud in the west? International human rights should overrule murderous religious edicts.
posted by Nelson at 2:55 AM on June 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
As for "respect cultural differences", is anyone saying that out loud in the west?
Yes, the UK government for one.
posted by Dysk at 3:16 AM on June 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes, the UK government for one.
posted by Dysk at 3:16 AM on June 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Does sports washing even work anymore?
I believe it isn't sports washing anymore. It's money flexing using sports. The autocrats and oligarchs are announcing boldly and publically "We own and run the world and can do whatever the hell we want. We can buy your heroes. We can make your best of anything kneel before us holding a bowl". That the current batch of capitulators are for the most parts sports either owned by oligarchs already (FIFA) or are sports based around selling advertising for luxury goods (F1 and now the PGA) to terrible people or both also greases these transactions.
posted by srboisvert at 4:19 AM on June 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
I believe it isn't sports washing anymore. It's money flexing using sports. The autocrats and oligarchs are announcing boldly and publically "We own and run the world and can do whatever the hell we want. We can buy your heroes. We can make your best of anything kneel before us holding a bowl". That the current batch of capitulators are for the most parts sports either owned by oligarchs already (FIFA) or are sports based around selling advertising for luxury goods (F1 and now the PGA) to terrible people or both also greases these transactions.
posted by srboisvert at 4:19 AM on June 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
> > It works. It normalises these places as places you might go, moves them out of the mental category with Iran and North Korea.
as saudi arabia normalizes relations with iran (and syria).
posted by kliuless at 5:14 AM on June 7, 2023
as saudi arabia normalizes relations with iran (and syria).
posted by kliuless at 5:14 AM on June 7, 2023
The subheading of the NY Times' analysis piece on the merger sums it all up pretty well: "The PGA Tour’s merger with LIV is the perfect union of the tour’s lack of principle and LIV’s paucity of character."
posted by Dip Flash at 5:37 AM on June 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 5:37 AM on June 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
So, can the golf folks tell me about the Zurich classic? Is that PGA?
The Zurich Classic is a PGA Tour event, yes. As far as I know it is the only one that uses that team format with fourball and alternate shot, but I could be wrong on that.
posted by CheeseLouise at 7:27 AM on June 7, 2023
The Zurich Classic is a PGA Tour event, yes. As far as I know it is the only one that uses that team format with fourball and alternate shot, but I could be wrong on that.
posted by CheeseLouise at 7:27 AM on June 7, 2023
A lot of chatter on Twitter around the merger seems to repeatedly mention 9/11 and the role of Saudi Arabia in that terrorist attack. I haven't seen people make that association as widely, before this week, outside of legal cases that did not manage to make much progress in courts. I suppose increased public awareness would be one good thing to come out of this, if only to help plaintiffs perhaps get justice one day.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:37 AM on June 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:37 AM on June 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
So how does this work for all the courses that the PGA TOUR plays on? Can they just up and say 'nope not here anymore' (absent unbreakable contract requirements)? Are there expectations that a lot more money will flow to keep that from happening?
posted by achrise at 8:06 AM on June 7, 2023
posted by achrise at 8:06 AM on June 7, 2023
Hey I'd boycott golf and the PGA but I was already 'hard pass' on both those things, wondering what more I can do?
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:43 AM on June 7, 2023
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:43 AM on June 7, 2023
A lot of chatter on Twitter around the merger seems to repeatedly mention 9/11 and the role of Saudi Arabia in that terrorist attack.
There have been some pretty funny tweets about it too, like the one saying that in the merger, the PGA will get holes 1-8 and 12-18, while the Saudis will keep 9-11.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:50 AM on June 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
There have been some pretty funny tweets about it too, like the one saying that in the merger, the PGA will get holes 1-8 and 12-18, while the Saudis will keep 9-11.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:50 AM on June 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Saudis money and violations of animal rights near ruined equine endurance riding. Their attempts to buy off the FEA officials (Fédération Equestre Internationale. Global governing body for equestrian sport) as well as attempting to corrupt the AERC (American Endurance Ride Conference).
Lame horse, dead horses, beatings, cheating--all ignored until horse lovers and animal activists said ENOUGH! The FEA finally is attempting to do their job.
The split in American riders is directly down the middle with amateurs and backyard riders following the motto 'To Finish is to Win' with the horse's welfare being primary, vs the riders that believe 'Only to Win is to Win, Money is Everything', because there's always another horse you can buy if you ruin the one you have. A lot of highly regarded US riders jumped on the money boat and exported their champion horses for big big bucks, even after knowing that Saudis were running a meat grinder.
Saudi camel racing is another disgusting sport. Human rights violations finally prompted the removal of child slaves as jockeys, but there is still a hidden industry involving abusing children as stable workers. Camels are worth thousands but are still beaten by their mechanical jockeys every stride of their races, and shockers and drugging are common occurrences, mostly protested by race losers missing out on the big bucks.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:55 AM on June 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Lame horse, dead horses, beatings, cheating--all ignored until horse lovers and animal activists said ENOUGH! The FEA finally is attempting to do their job.
The split in American riders is directly down the middle with amateurs and backyard riders following the motto 'To Finish is to Win' with the horse's welfare being primary, vs the riders that believe 'Only to Win is to Win, Money is Everything', because there's always another horse you can buy if you ruin the one you have. A lot of highly regarded US riders jumped on the money boat and exported their champion horses for big big bucks, even after knowing that Saudis were running a meat grinder.
Saudi camel racing is another disgusting sport. Human rights violations finally prompted the removal of child slaves as jockeys, but there is still a hidden industry involving abusing children as stable workers. Camels are worth thousands but are still beaten by their mechanical jockeys every stride of their races, and shockers and drugging are common occurrences, mostly protested by race losers missing out on the big bucks.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:55 AM on June 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Soccer superstar mononym MESSI has rejected a massive offer from Saudi Arabia reportedly worth €320 million per year, opting instead to play with MLS’s Miami entrant.
posted by chrchr at 1:49 PM on June 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 1:49 PM on June 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hey I'd boycott golf and the PGA but I was already 'hard pass' on both those things, wondering what more I can do?
Help me rent a few thousand rototillers and let’s get to work.
posted by badbobbycase at 2:26 PM on June 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Help me rent a few thousand rototillers and let’s get to work.
posted by badbobbycase at 2:26 PM on June 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Help me rent a few thousand rototillers and let’s get to work.
To be quite honest, a lot of golf courses are built in places where they simply should not exist* and I support this monkeywrench strategy.
*Phoenix springs immediately to mind.
posted by hippybear at 8:29 PM on June 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
To be quite honest, a lot of golf courses are built in places where they simply should not exist* and I support this monkeywrench strategy.
*Phoenix springs immediately to mind.
posted by hippybear at 8:29 PM on June 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe it's time to get that pro-LGBT, anti-golf shirt I've been coveting, No TERFS and No Turfs
posted by emjaybee at 10:38 PM on June 7, 2023
posted by emjaybee at 10:38 PM on June 7, 2023
The Saudi-PGA deal isn't going to happen (Matt Stoller, who writes about monopolies)
posted by box at 8:58 AM on June 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by box at 8:58 AM on June 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Secrecy, Cigars and a Venetian Wedding: How the PGA Tour Made a Deal with Saudi Arabia. Lots of details of the dealmaking process. It's gross.
posted by Nelson at 8:40 AM on June 13, 2023
posted by Nelson at 8:40 AM on June 13, 2023
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So weird. PGA officials were in my office just months ago talking about how the Saudis' human rights record should disqualify them from having a stake in a major American sport.
I guess maybe their concerns weren't really about human rights?
posted by Etrigan at 10:24 AM on June 6, 2023 [64 favorites]