"I am not your Fleshlight."
June 9, 2023 8:31 AM Subscribe
The Vindication of Ariana Madix It’s familiar territory for any woman who has been cheated on: You weren’t giving your man enough time, you always talked down to him, you never wanted to have sex, you weren’t supportive enough.
It’s unfortunate that it went down the way it did, but surely Madix has got to feel some sort of relief, a little bit of weight being lifted? “I definitely feel this sense of freedom because I was the adviser,” she says, “the sounding board. And he didn't like that he wasn't getting constant validation from his adviser. Now I feel like I don't have to worry about anybody but myself.”
The narrative around sex—or rather, the lack of it—is particularly hard to watch. “I feel like I'm someone who craves intimacy outside of just penetrative sex,” Madix says. “And that was something that I was deprived of for so long. As women, we might bring something up a bunch of times and then we just stop. That's where I was at. I was like I cannot keep nagging this man to want to come home and spend time with me.”
Scandoval previously
It’s unfortunate that it went down the way it did, but surely Madix has got to feel some sort of relief, a little bit of weight being lifted? “I definitely feel this sense of freedom because I was the adviser,” she says, “the sounding board. And he didn't like that he wasn't getting constant validation from his adviser. Now I feel like I don't have to worry about anybody but myself.”
The narrative around sex—or rather, the lack of it—is particularly hard to watch. “I feel like I'm someone who craves intimacy outside of just penetrative sex,” Madix says. “And that was something that I was deprived of for so long. As women, we might bring something up a bunch of times and then we just stop. That's where I was at. I was like I cannot keep nagging this man to want to come home and spend time with me.”
Scandoval previously
Nothing against her, I hope she has a good life going forward, and it's not like the dynamics she's alluding to aren't familiar and toxic ones, but at the same time I find it difficult to find anyone who voluntarily appears on Vanderpump Rules an avatar of dignity. It's 2023. We know what happens on Bravo reality shows. You made yourself into a minor brand, and now you're monetizing being cheated on. When you talk about how you perceived your relationship as "endgame" for a reality narrative, you've left dignity behind some time ago. You can't even plausibly claim to be angry that the world is in your business; you invited them in and you're bragging about your ability to make money off the current scrutiny. Secure the bag, but spare me the rhetoric.
posted by praemunire at 8:50 AM on June 9, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 8:50 AM on June 9, 2023 [24 favorites]
When you talk about how you perceived your relationship as "endgame" for a reality narrative,
I think you misread this. I believe she's saying her relationship was going on for so long, people assumed it was a forever thing. It added to the shock for fans.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:58 AM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think you misread this. I believe she's saying her relationship was going on for so long, people assumed it was a forever thing. It added to the shock for fans.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:58 AM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
One thing I have always liked and respected about Ariana is that she's more intelligent, emotionally mature, and down-to-earth than the other cast members. Yeah, it's reality TV, so the bar is low. But she is someone I'd want to hang out with and befriend in real life. Can't say that about many other people I've seen on reality TV.
I won't judge her for the decisions she has made re: sponsorships or "monetizing" being cheated on. I think that's a little bit uncharitable given the context. She knows there's a good chance that she may have to leave the show if Lisa, the other producers, or her fellow cast members are unwilling to respect her boundaries as far as filming or maintaining contact with Sandoval or Raquel (assuming that either of them stay on, which they may not, whether forcibly or by choice). I don't think that's likely but it's certainly possible.
Either way, her income is not guaranteed. The entertainment industry is cruel, and even more cruel when you're a woman approaching 40. I think she understands that and is rightfully taking advantage of this moment to push her life in a more pleasing direction. Good for her!
I hope that Sandoval and Raquel get the axe. Some people might want them around as villains, but who needs them when we already have two classic villain archetypes: Lala and James.
Anyway, the best thing to come out of Scandoval isn't this. It's that Lisa has finally been forced to confront that she is no longer that relevant for the survival of the show, and that she no longer has control over the monsters she has created. Which might explain why she's been working on a show for a new team of monsters.
Don't get me wrong. I'm excited for the new show. I miss the early days of VPR when everyone was an actual restaurant server, struggling and hungry to make it in Hollywood. Now that it's just Housewives Lite, we deserve a return to the original concept.
posted by nightrecordings at 9:17 AM on June 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
I won't judge her for the decisions she has made re: sponsorships or "monetizing" being cheated on. I think that's a little bit uncharitable given the context. She knows there's a good chance that she may have to leave the show if Lisa, the other producers, or her fellow cast members are unwilling to respect her boundaries as far as filming or maintaining contact with Sandoval or Raquel (assuming that either of them stay on, which they may not, whether forcibly or by choice). I don't think that's likely but it's certainly possible.
Either way, her income is not guaranteed. The entertainment industry is cruel, and even more cruel when you're a woman approaching 40. I think she understands that and is rightfully taking advantage of this moment to push her life in a more pleasing direction. Good for her!
I hope that Sandoval and Raquel get the axe. Some people might want them around as villains, but who needs them when we already have two classic villain archetypes: Lala and James.
Anyway, the best thing to come out of Scandoval isn't this. It's that Lisa has finally been forced to confront that she is no longer that relevant for the survival of the show, and that she no longer has control over the monsters she has created. Which might explain why she's been working on a show for a new team of monsters.
Don't get me wrong. I'm excited for the new show. I miss the early days of VPR when everyone was an actual restaurant server, struggling and hungry to make it in Hollywood. Now that it's just Housewives Lite, we deserve a return to the original concept.
posted by nightrecordings at 9:17 AM on June 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
Either way, her income is not guaranteed. The entertainment industry is cruel, and even more cruel when you're a woman approaching 40. I think she understands that and is rightfully taking advantage of this moment to push her life in a more pleasing direction. Good for her!
And she's in an especially sticky financial situation where her former partner took out a massive home equity loan (not two years after buying the place) (in addition to draining $250K from his mother's retirement funds) in order to pay for his vanity bar and vanity cover band. Some people are saying he's unwilling to sell, and is trying to gum up the works so that she can't buy him out. So she'll need some extra cash on hand just to find a place to live in that area.
Normally, this level of cash-grabbing is distasteful. But she's being smart in striking while this particular iron is hot.
posted by knotty knots at 9:29 AM on June 9, 2023 [22 favorites]
And she's in an especially sticky financial situation where her former partner took out a massive home equity loan (not two years after buying the place) (in addition to draining $250K from his mother's retirement funds) in order to pay for his vanity bar and vanity cover band. Some people are saying he's unwilling to sell, and is trying to gum up the works so that she can't buy him out. So she'll need some extra cash on hand just to find a place to live in that area.
Normally, this level of cash-grabbing is distasteful. But she's being smart in striking while this particular iron is hot.
posted by knotty knots at 9:29 AM on June 9, 2023 [22 favorites]
AND shes starting a new business. Take that money, girl! She's very clear in the article she wants to secure her family's future. What a jerk, amirite? (Eyeroll).
I would love it if people who don't watch the show wouldn't try to dunk on it cause it really doesn't land.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:32 AM on June 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
I would love it if people who don't watch the show wouldn't try to dunk on it cause it really doesn't land.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:32 AM on June 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
I have never heard of these people, I have never heard of this show, I don't remember seeing the previously on the blue, but damn, I am a fan of this woman now.
posted by chavenet at 9:38 AM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 9:38 AM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
You can't even plausibly claim to be angry that the world is in your business; you invited them in and you're bragging about your ability to make money off the current scrutiny. Secure the bag, but spare me the rhetoric.
Respectfully, I don't know if you're responding to the article and/or story here. She's not angry that the world is in her business. She's angry that her partner of almost a decade carried out a lengthy affair with her close friend, and also that he insulted her, her ways of loving, and their intimate moments.
On- or off-camera, that would be appalling. And I think that's one of the reasons why this has resonated so much with people. If you've ever been cheated on, betrayed, etc., it's enormously gratifying to see someone handle it the way Madix has. She says to him so many of the things I wish I'd had the presence of mind to say to my abusive ex. It's a l'esprit d'escalier with high emotional stakes, and she nails it.
posted by knotty knots at 9:39 AM on June 9, 2023 [22 favorites]
Respectfully, I don't know if you're responding to the article and/or story here. She's not angry that the world is in her business. She's angry that her partner of almost a decade carried out a lengthy affair with her close friend, and also that he insulted her, her ways of loving, and their intimate moments.
On- or off-camera, that would be appalling. And I think that's one of the reasons why this has resonated so much with people. If you've ever been cheated on, betrayed, etc., it's enormously gratifying to see someone handle it the way Madix has. She says to him so many of the things I wish I'd had the presence of mind to say to my abusive ex. It's a l'esprit d'escalier with high emotional stakes, and she nails it.
posted by knotty knots at 9:39 AM on June 9, 2023 [22 favorites]
Considering how often shitty men profit from scandals like this, I have no issue with Ariana's new business venture blowing up and it looks like she's thriving in her new relationship and new business, so good for her.
I'm relatively new to the cinematic bravo universe of housewives and vpr. But for anyone who hasn't watched over the many seasons, one thing to note is that Ariana has always come across as the most chill and normie of the varied cast. She just wants to enjoy her life and for a long time, it did seem like that was happening for her and Tom.
But with that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if she leaves the show in another year or two. Based on this profile, you can sense she's growing out of the show and the boost to her business as a result of the 'scandoval' is giving her an opportunity to put that shit behind her and as others have referenced, she's trying to take care of her family.
If anyone deserves to be under scrutiny, its Tom and Rachel and the other sadder Tom.
posted by Fizz at 9:41 AM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm relatively new to the cinematic bravo universe of housewives and vpr. But for anyone who hasn't watched over the many seasons, one thing to note is that Ariana has always come across as the most chill and normie of the varied cast. She just wants to enjoy her life and for a long time, it did seem like that was happening for her and Tom.
But with that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if she leaves the show in another year or two. Based on this profile, you can sense she's growing out of the show and the boost to her business as a result of the 'scandoval' is giving her an opportunity to put that shit behind her and as others have referenced, she's trying to take care of her family.
If anyone deserves to be under scrutiny, its Tom and Rachel and the other sadder Tom.
posted by Fizz at 9:41 AM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
You can't even plausibly claim to be angry that the world is in your business; you invited them in and you're bragging about your ability to make money off the current scrutiny. Secure the bag, but spare me the rhetoric.
I read the whole article - I don't disagree with praemunire. She talks about wanting time at home with him while she herself is starting a restaurant, appearing in a reality show, and having a dream of being an actor, and the article takes a weird aside on getting a college degree and a normal job. I just don't think her wants and needs align with the life she has lead and seems to want to lead in the future.
I'm on the get the money side, and be as private as you want, and her boyfriend who started this seems terrible and they even allude to her having a part in breaking up his original relationship (with Kristen Doute). I don't know I feel bad for her but then again, this is kind of what you get when you sign on to a Bravo reality show.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:00 AM on June 9, 2023
I read the whole article - I don't disagree with praemunire. She talks about wanting time at home with him while she herself is starting a restaurant, appearing in a reality show, and having a dream of being an actor, and the article takes a weird aside on getting a college degree and a normal job. I just don't think her wants and needs align with the life she has lead and seems to want to lead in the future.
I'm on the get the money side, and be as private as you want, and her boyfriend who started this seems terrible and they even allude to her having a part in breaking up his original relationship (with Kristen Doute). I don't know I feel bad for her but then again, this is kind of what you get when you sign on to a Bravo reality show.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:00 AM on June 9, 2023
Either way, her income is not guaranteed. The entertainment industry is cruel, and even more cruel when you're a woman approaching 40. I think she understands that and is rightfully taking advantage of this moment to push her life in a more pleasing direction. Good for her!
Given her career choices, this is how she's going to make her money. Like I said, go ahead, secure the bag. The rent must be paid. And, as far as I know, she didn't do anything wrong, while her ex is a dick. But it's hard for me to admire the noble fortitude required to endure the public fallout of choosing to conduct your most important relationship not only on camera, but on camera on a show whose entire point is wild, contrived interpersonal drama. This is just another pose for her, another marketing angle. You can respect a person's business savvy while not particularly respecting the business.
(And, tinyfryingpan, she said "so many people, including myself, saw us as endgame," so...this is how you're conceptualizing your situation with your apparent life partner. It's one thing to do this kind of thing on something like Summer House when you're 25 and stupid and hooking up with randos anyway. As a way to think of your real life...)
posted by praemunire at 10:02 AM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Given her career choices, this is how she's going to make her money. Like I said, go ahead, secure the bag. The rent must be paid. And, as far as I know, she didn't do anything wrong, while her ex is a dick. But it's hard for me to admire the noble fortitude required to endure the public fallout of choosing to conduct your most important relationship not only on camera, but on camera on a show whose entire point is wild, contrived interpersonal drama. This is just another pose for her, another marketing angle. You can respect a person's business savvy while not particularly respecting the business.
(And, tinyfryingpan, she said "so many people, including myself, saw us as endgame," so...this is how you're conceptualizing your situation with your apparent life partner. It's one thing to do this kind of thing on something like Summer House when you're 25 and stupid and hooking up with randos anyway. As a way to think of your real life...)
posted by praemunire at 10:02 AM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Okay, but why is seeing one's relationship as endgame bad? It's not an uncommon expression. Is your issue that they didn't formally commit and get married, or?
posted by knotty knots at 10:07 AM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by knotty knots at 10:07 AM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
And, tinyfryingpan, she said "so many people, including myself, saw us as endgame," so...this is how you're conceptualizing your situation with your apparent life partner.
Meaning, their relationship was going to be forever. Not what you think it means here. You're still reading it wrong in your rush to condem the people on this show for some reason.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:10 AM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Meaning, their relationship was going to be forever. Not what you think it means here. You're still reading it wrong in your rush to condem the people on this show for some reason.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:10 AM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
But it's hard for me to admire the noble fortitude required to endure the public fallout of choosing to conduct your most important relationship not only on camera, but on camera on a show whose entire point is wild, contrived interpersonal drama.
Luckily, no one is asking you too! But you seem pretty unfamiliar with these people.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:11 AM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Luckily, no one is asking you too! But you seem pretty unfamiliar with these people.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:11 AM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
She talks about wanting time at home with him while she herself is starting a restaurant, appearing in a reality show, and having a dream of being an actor, and the article takes a weird aside on getting a college degree and a normal job. I just don't think her wants and needs align with the life she has lead and seems to want to lead in the future.
I liked hearing about her background.
It's not at all weird to ask your partner for more time together, and they don't deliver, and then cheat on you with your friend, to mildly explain that you wanted more intimacy than penetrative sex.
Why cast about for an explanation that SHE is not actually wanting time with a partner?? That's such a strange take as to be noteworthy to me.
I don't mean to reply to everyone but some of the complaints about her in the world are bizarre.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:17 AM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
I liked hearing about her background.
It's not at all weird to ask your partner for more time together, and they don't deliver, and then cheat on you with your friend, to mildly explain that you wanted more intimacy than penetrative sex.
Why cast about for an explanation that SHE is not actually wanting time with a partner?? That's such a strange take as to be noteworthy to me.
I don't mean to reply to everyone but some of the complaints about her in the world are bizarre.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:17 AM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
I actually have a different complaint about the article....this is what they have towards the beginning:
It's here we must pause and wonder whether anyone reading this really needs a comprehensive rundown of the Vanderpump Rules drama that has captivated everyone from a roomful of politicians to Jennifer Lopez. You already know the players, you’ve already pored over the timeline.
....uh....yes, I actually would have appreciated a summation of what this was about, because no, I don't know the players or the timeline. Up until the news broke I'd been under the impression that "Vanderpump Rules" was an early Ryan Reynolds film and had no idea what was going on.
I mean, it sounds like Ms. Madix is savvy and resilient and that's great, but....could the journalist not have had some mercy on some of us who'd been living under a rock?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:27 AM on June 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
It's here we must pause and wonder whether anyone reading this really needs a comprehensive rundown of the Vanderpump Rules drama that has captivated everyone from a roomful of politicians to Jennifer Lopez. You already know the players, you’ve already pored over the timeline.
....uh....yes, I actually would have appreciated a summation of what this was about, because no, I don't know the players or the timeline. Up until the news broke I'd been under the impression that "Vanderpump Rules" was an early Ryan Reynolds film and had no idea what was going on.
I mean, it sounds like Ms. Madix is savvy and resilient and that's great, but....could the journalist not have had some mercy on some of us who'd been living under a rock?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:27 AM on June 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
(The previous link to the MeFi FPP posted here luckily has a very full breakdown if anyone needs it!)
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:29 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:29 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do know that the previous FPP has a rundown, I was commenting more about an assumption the article was making. It just sort of smacked of a whole cool-girl "well, duh, everyone knows what this is about" kind of vibe that just bugged me was all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:34 AM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:34 AM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I kinda feel for the writer there. It's been months and many, many articles. For a cover story, yeah, people who are gonna read are mostly going to know what it's all about. Maybe that's the shame of today's journalism but hey.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:36 AM on June 9, 2023
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:36 AM on June 9, 2023
I was in the same boat and the article does go on to give quite a bit of context thankfully for me. I feel like Glamour was trying to go out of their way to excuse the fact they have a reality star on their cover (no excuse needed IMO but I'm sure some Glamour readers disagree).
posted by muddgirl at 10:37 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 10:37 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
"Endgame" definitely means "life partner" in this context.
Ariana had said many, many times, both before and after the breakup, that she viewed Sandoval as her "ride or die" life partner. It's on record.
I think that if you're not a fan of the show, it's harder to wrap your head around this situation because Ariana is an outlier as far as reality TV personalities go. I mean, the entire show is an outlier, if we're being honest. I don't think it's going to be useful or insightful to apply the same framework that we often use to assess reality television as a whole, but we're at a point where the story has grown beyond the limits of the show's core viewer base. It's understandable that people want to have an opinion but I would urge folks to learn more about the show, and the show's stars, before jumping to conclusions.
I cannot emphasize enough how different Ariana is from your average reality television star. She's the people's princess of a reality TV royal family. And she could have easily spent the last decade finding ways to instigate drama or cash in, but at the end of the day she was always a chill girl-next-door who just wanted to hang at home with her friends. You don't have to believe me, but I think this position will make more sense if you've been watching since the beginning.
posted by nightrecordings at 10:48 AM on June 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
Ariana had said many, many times, both before and after the breakup, that she viewed Sandoval as her "ride or die" life partner. It's on record.
I think that if you're not a fan of the show, it's harder to wrap your head around this situation because Ariana is an outlier as far as reality TV personalities go. I mean, the entire show is an outlier, if we're being honest. I don't think it's going to be useful or insightful to apply the same framework that we often use to assess reality television as a whole, but we're at a point where the story has grown beyond the limits of the show's core viewer base. It's understandable that people want to have an opinion but I would urge folks to learn more about the show, and the show's stars, before jumping to conclusions.
I cannot emphasize enough how different Ariana is from your average reality television star. She's the people's princess of a reality TV royal family. And she could have easily spent the last decade finding ways to instigate drama or cash in, but at the end of the day she was always a chill girl-next-door who just wanted to hang at home with her friends. You don't have to believe me, but I think this position will make more sense if you've been watching since the beginning.
posted by nightrecordings at 10:48 AM on June 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
Yes for anyone who is genuinely curious the prior FPP is excellent! Also the subreddit for VPR fans has a scandoval affair master post with a ridiculous number of minute details about the whole affair.
It's totally cool that some people are above all of this but for some of us this is a story of someone rising and shining through some very dark shit and we need that story. She says in the interview that she recognizes that people want to know how she's handling it. She's thriving and she wants us all to know that.
I find it sad and unsurprising that some people want to make sure she feels low right now. She had an amazing response to a lovely comment on her social media recently.
So yeah, I think she's a total star.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 10:50 AM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
It's totally cool that some people are above all of this but for some of us this is a story of someone rising and shining through some very dark shit and we need that story. She says in the interview that she recognizes that people want to know how she's handling it. She's thriving and she wants us all to know that.
I find it sad and unsurprising that some people want to make sure she feels low right now. She had an amazing response to a lovely comment on her social media recently.
So yeah, I think she's a total star.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 10:50 AM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
LOL, check our her latest endorsement,Duracell.
When she said "I buy my own batteries now," so funny.
Context: Her idiot cheating ex who buys pens and batteries, what a gent: Tik Tok link
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:46 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
When she said "I buy my own batteries now," so funny.
Context: Her idiot cheating ex who buys pens and batteries, what a gent: Tik Tok link
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:46 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm not a fan of the genre, but I'm exposed to it because my wife likes it. Is it just me, or were they even more unruly than is normal for a reunion show? Also, fuck Sandival. I had no clue who these people are, and he still came off as a horrible jerk.
posted by Spike Glee at 12:01 PM on June 9, 2023
posted by Spike Glee at 12:01 PM on June 9, 2023
Is it just me, or were they even more unruly than is normal for a reunion show?
Yes. That was, by a margin of many miles, the most chaotic and out-of-control reunion show I have ever watched. Ever. Emotions were ... high. Sandoval and Raquel had betrayed everyone in the room.
Reunions are always heated but never like that (the closet I've seen is the reunion for Season 9 of Real Housewives of Atlanta). I would say that Andy, Lisa, and the other producers "lost control," but it was pretty clear they never had control to begin with.
posted by nightrecordings at 12:23 PM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes. That was, by a margin of many miles, the most chaotic and out-of-control reunion show I have ever watched. Ever. Emotions were ... high. Sandoval and Raquel had betrayed everyone in the room.
Reunions are always heated but never like that (the closet I've seen is the reunion for Season 9 of Real Housewives of Atlanta). I would say that Andy, Lisa, and the other producers "lost control," but it was pretty clear they never had control to begin with.
posted by nightrecordings at 12:23 PM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
As somebody who has not watched the show but did RTFA, I think she comes off well here, but also I don't know that it's wholly necessary to extensively cross examine anyone who responds with anything other than gushing admiration? Branding yourself as having a thoughtful, mature public response to being publicly cheated on during the filming of a reality show, can be genuinely empowering to both her and a lot of viewers, and at the same time also represent a very specific kind of empowerment that won't resonate for everyone. I think that's OK.
posted by eponym at 4:07 PM on June 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by eponym at 4:07 PM on June 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
Reality TV is a special case, though, you know? Anyone can comment on it with opinions that hold the same weight, for some reason. Even though a fictional television series isn't the same way. You don't have the same amount of people saying they know what the character of someone is, the style of the show is ____, this is meaningful, this is vapid...but also state they have never watched it. I've never seen it with any hit show, Sopranos, Breaking Bad, etc. It hits different for me, I dunno.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:18 PM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:18 PM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
(Just musing here. No offense to y'all)
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:22 PM on June 9, 2023
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:22 PM on June 9, 2023
Presumably the reason Madix is seeking additional career opportunities and doing interviews like this with general interest publications is precisely to broaden her reach beyond the existing audience for the show!
posted by eponym at 4:54 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eponym at 4:54 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Reality TV gave us the Trump Presidency.
That it is thriving despite that tells us something about human nature I probably don’t want to think about too much.
posted by jamjam at 4:57 PM on June 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
That it is thriving despite that tells us something about human nature I probably don’t want to think about too much.
posted by jamjam at 4:57 PM on June 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
Trying to single out reality tv seems pointless, oh the Great British Bake Off gave us Trump? It's a formula of clips of interviews and live interaction edited for maximum drama, and it turns out to be super entertaining. Blaming his presidency on his use of that formula seems like a reach as well, like I'm sure it helped but other factors were in play there.
Anyway, great article and good for her, she rose up through a super shitty situation like a champ and is using the publicity to her advantage.
(I only know the whole Bravo-verse through gifsets on Tumblr and an unfortunate crush on Joe Guidice)
posted by drinkyclown at 7:03 PM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Anyway, great article and good for her, she rose up through a super shitty situation like a champ and is using the publicity to her advantage.
(I only know the whole Bravo-verse through gifsets on Tumblr and an unfortunate crush on Joe Guidice)
posted by drinkyclown at 7:03 PM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Presumably the reason Madix is seeking additional career opportunities and doing interviews like this with general interest publications is precisely to broaden her reach beyond the existing audience for the show!
Of course! I'm excited she's getting so much attention it even landed here!
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:10 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Of course! I'm excited she's getting so much attention it even landed here!
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:10 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
the Great British Bake Off gave us Trump?
Well, it did sort of seem like the Nailed It! presidency
posted by staggernation at 7:21 PM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Well, it did sort of seem like the Nailed It! presidency
posted by staggernation at 7:21 PM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I assume the reference to reality TV and Trump is about The Apprentice. I've lived in New Jersey most of my life, so I knew who Trump was before the show, but I suspect that show introduced him to the majority of Americans. So it's entirely possible that we would not have had a Trump presidency without reality TV. This is obviously a derail, and I have no opinion about this particular show or the people involved, but I hate Trump, so I had to say it.
posted by mollweide at 7:33 PM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mollweide at 7:33 PM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
What else can you say? She was an amazing woman.
posted by grobstein at 7:43 PM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by grobstein at 7:43 PM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Went down a rabbit hole about this and:
1. Deuxmoi had the gossip? I always thought that Deuxmoi was fake but I have been proved wrong!
2. I am supposed to believe that mustachioed Los Angeles bartender/bar owner/beauty line creator/middle aged cover band lead singer Tom Sandoval cheated on Ariana with ONLY Raquel? And one or two other girls? Please! He's like the Platonic ideal of a complete dog.
posted by kingdead at 7:44 PM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
1. Deuxmoi had the gossip? I always thought that Deuxmoi was fake but I have been proved wrong!
2. I am supposed to believe that mustachioed Los Angeles bartender/bar owner/beauty line creator/middle aged cover band lead singer Tom Sandoval cheated on Ariana with ONLY Raquel? And one or two other girls? Please! He's like the Platonic ideal of a complete dog.
posted by kingdead at 7:44 PM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I... made myself finish the article, but I still don't care. I mean, I'm glad this woman got past a shitty cheater and appears to be thriving? But the article insulted me from the start with the "we assume you know about this", and then once I managed to unravel that this was some shitty "reality" show? About a restaurant, I think? I stopped caring. I don't understand for even a moment why people watch these things at all, let alone become invested in them. And I'm not a high-culture snob, either: I'll happily hang while my daughter binges "Supernatural". It's just that these aren't real shows or real people, and I've never understood it, all the way back to "The Real World", which was not. Maybe I'm the outlier here.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:19 PM on June 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:19 PM on June 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
You're by no means an outlier but this kind of response is frustrating because, like you don't care so much that you needed to comment? "reality" in quotes like nobody knows that these shows are slickly produced and edited for entertainment? The people in these shows know they're being recorded, if you were on tv you would probably act much differently than you would in private, right? It's no different than "fictional" tv, where audiences grow interest in not just the character but the person playing the role.
posted by drinkyclown at 8:52 PM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by drinkyclown at 8:52 PM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
My Dumb Things I Like Are OK But Yours Suck
Ok got it. 👍
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:18 PM on June 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
Ok got it. 👍
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:18 PM on June 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
Reality TV gave us the Trump Presidency.Recently, I watched my first-ever season of Survivor with a friend, because Mike White—the writer and director of The White Lotus—appeared on it. And White has been pretty open about how he's not just a Survivor megafan, but he finds the way that it's plotted and edited far more compelling than a lot of literary fiction. I wanted to see how a writer and artist who I deeply admired came off when crammed into Reality Television Logic, but I wound up coming away pretty hooked on Survivor itself. Because White is right: as a storytelling medium, it's got vividness and substance and wit that you don't always see in more highbrow works.
That it is thriving despite that tells us something about human nature I probably don’t want to think about too much.
I studied the sociology of play and games in college, and one of the ideas that most stuck with me was that the computer is to processes what the printing press was to language. Technology allows us to invent new mediums for consumption. The twentieth century, and the evolution of mass media, is a story about people devising new delivery methods for information and entertainment, some of which are technical in nature (like broadcasting itself) and some of which involves learning just how a medium can be used. And there's a continual escalation of how quickly new delivery methods are invented, especially as the world goes increasingly digital.
I don't think this is inherently a net good or bad for humanity as a whole. And I don't think it says something inherently bad about us that we discover the crowd-pleasing stuff before we discover the nuances and sophistication. Early movies were entirely rooted in spectacle, finding ways to dazzle and entertain; early TV was essentially ad stuffing. Early radio broadcasting, and early print publication, discovered yellow journalism incredibly early. There's often a trend in which, even if the inventor of a medium tries to be classy about their own uses of said medium, someone else runs in and starts doing junky stuff right away.
The thing we're running into, in part, is that the sheer slowness of media evolution in the 1900s led to institutions that assumed they'd be eternal: media enterprises that are slow to evolve their norms, bad at self-reflection, and run by the dumbest people alive. Fox News, for example, started its shtick in the mid-90s, and other news outlets had literally no idea how to respond to it or to shut its jingoism down; they didn't even recognize that as their responsibility, which it was for both ethical and financial reasons. Donald Trump literally became the president eight years ago, and CNN still doesn't know how to fucking handle him in a goddamn town hall.
Reality TV is a fascinating evolution as TV as a medium. It sucks because it's a huge, new institution, and giant institutions tend to attract abuse and exploitation even on top of the damage that they do from their sheer scale. And, yes, it works because it's compelling, and because we simply do not have the media literacy as a society to tell scam apart from reality. That kind of literacy is still brand-new, in many ways, and will take a while to catch on.
Curiously enough, the political chaos of this era does have a precedent in the 1400s and 1500s: the ability to distribute text rapidly was part of why Martin Luther had as much disruptive influence as he did, and there were similar apocalyptic attitudes towards the new invention, as if it would dismantle the bonds of society outright. And in many ways it did undo the existing order—but it also enabled more potent forms of democracy and society-making, without which the United States wouldn't have been possible to begin with. (I'm painting with a broad brush here, and would need more time than I'm devoting to an Internet comment to do more than handwave in the direction of that era, so please forgive me.)
I think the thing that Trump, and reality TV, tells us about human nature is that a part of our nature is a kind of perpetual adolescence. We are always coming of age, growing into things too quickly for comfort and hurting ourselves before we learn our lesson. Which means it's hard for us to build order in the world without accidentally knocking holes in it—Legos if you're optimistic, sand castles if you're not—but also means that we are capable of learning, and even of maturing, here and there, now and again.
Anyway, to get way less lofty, I've heard for ages that Vanderpump Rules is like the caviar of trashy reality TV, and keep regretting that I haven't seen it. That's been true since well before this recent scandal. And the people in it are, at the end of the day, people—yes, they're edited to hell and they're doing this to get paid, but they don't stop being human just because they're on TV. (That happens when they become billionaires, duhh.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 9:59 PM on June 9, 2023 [16 favorites]
It’s been roughly 1,007 years since that particular portion of the Old Testament was said to have been written
I also struggled a bit with this article, though I went off the rails earlier when it opened with this startling 'fact'. Is this some sort weird VPR inside joke, a wink and nod that the rest shouldn't be taken too seriously, or is Glamour really so poor that they can't afford a fact checker for the opening paragraph of their cover article?
I feel like I must be missing something because surely someone at Glamour knows that the Bible is more than a 1000 years old and yet...
posted by nangua at 3:04 AM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I also struggled a bit with this article, though I went off the rails earlier when it opened with this startling 'fact'. Is this some sort weird VPR inside joke, a wink and nod that the rest shouldn't be taken too seriously, or is Glamour really so poor that they can't afford a fact checker for the opening paragraph of their cover article?
I feel like I must be missing something because surely someone at Glamour knows that the Bible is more than a 1000 years old and yet...
posted by nangua at 3:04 AM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would love to call a moratorium on posters who pop into pop culture threads just to declare their superiority over the media others enjoy.
posted by Kitteh at 4:30 AM on June 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 4:30 AM on June 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
CNN knew exactly how to handle Trump! These are for-profit institutions, they need viewers and Trump is more compelling as a storyline than, I don't know, government budgets. This has been happening since enough Americans learned to read to make newspapers a going thing.
posted by kingdead at 4:47 AM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kingdead at 4:47 AM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
“We have no generational wealth in our family,” she says. “I want to make enough money to be able to take care of my mom and my brother and any other family members who may or may not need it. I never want to worry about it ever, ever, ever. So I will work as much as possible to not have to [worry].”
(my word addition at the end, that is how I read it)
I don't watch the show and would not have known Ariana if I spilled wine on her, but I respect this because why the f*ck not. I note that she does not say (or was not quoted as saying) anything like, "I want to make enough money so that I can lounge around doing nothing." Her motivation, as I choose to perceive it, seems nobler. She is her family's future. She is charging into it with the skills and resources that she has, and seems to recognize their limitations and shelf life. How can I not respect that? Strike that iron, Ariana.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:47 AM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
(my word addition at the end, that is how I read it)
I don't watch the show and would not have known Ariana if I spilled wine on her, but I respect this because why the f*ck not. I note that she does not say (or was not quoted as saying) anything like, "I want to make enough money so that I can lounge around doing nothing." Her motivation, as I choose to perceive it, seems nobler. She is her family's future. She is charging into it with the skills and resources that she has, and seems to recognize their limitations and shelf life. How can I not respect that? Strike that iron, Ariana.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:47 AM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
I would love to call a moratorium on posters who pop into pop culture threads just to declare their superiority over the media others enjoy.
I think you're looking for fanfare. Culture means a give and take while we work together to set boundaries that empower and protect both those willing to enjoy the kayfabe and those who see it as dangerous to the well being of the people who don't have television shows.
posted by abulafa at 5:33 AM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think you're looking for fanfare. Culture means a give and take while we work together to set boundaries that empower and protect both those willing to enjoy the kayfabe and those who see it as dangerous to the well being of the people who don't have television shows.
posted by abulafa at 5:33 AM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
All this grrar over reality TV makes me want to post about reality TV enough that this over wrought posting about how awful it is will have to subside.
It's a show. We like it. The horror! The horror!
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:07 AM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's a show. We like it. The horror! The horror!
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:07 AM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Boundaries that empower and protect? This is TV. You don't have to look at it, talk about a thing you've never seen, here, or insult people for liking it.
The loftiness is extreme.
Thank you to those who discussed kindly, I enjoyed you!
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:13 AM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
The loftiness is extreme.
Thank you to those who discussed kindly, I enjoyed you!
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:13 AM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is TV. You don't have to look at it, talk about a thing you've never seen, here, or insult people for liking it.
TV and the culture it reflects, helps create, and conspicuously ignores sure seems relevant whether I watch it or not. The defensiveness about discussing it is you proposing a boundary. It's not one everyone agrees with - you're having a loud and animated conversation on the train and acting like anyone who rolls their eyes in your direction should just move somewhere else.
Some folks - myself included - come to this kind of thread to figure out if there's some depth or connection I should understand about this particular TV thing. Yes, I come in with baggage, as do we all. Seeing honest criticism met with "just let us have our trashy thing and don't question or respond to it because that insults me!" and (especially in the previous thread) ad hominems that made uncharitable and frankly shitty assumptions about those participating then neither apologized or acknowledged those needless insults... Well it's not a great look.
So, yeah. Boundaries. It's clearly not just TV because it's part of this culture and both reflects and impacts how lots of people perceive relationships, brands, the notion of the protagonist's emotional intelligence, all those are things that affect how fans live their lives and what they expect from each other.
I mean, was Oprah responsible for the rise of several charlatans? I didn't watch the show but here we are in a world with her media creations in positions of power (nevermind the previously covered reality TV to politics pipelines). Pretending that TV stays TV when it's convenient ignores that we're all here in the world with you.
posted by abulafa at 6:48 AM on June 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
TV and the culture it reflects, helps create, and conspicuously ignores sure seems relevant whether I watch it or not. The defensiveness about discussing it is you proposing a boundary. It's not one everyone agrees with - you're having a loud and animated conversation on the train and acting like anyone who rolls their eyes in your direction should just move somewhere else.
Some folks - myself included - come to this kind of thread to figure out if there's some depth or connection I should understand about this particular TV thing. Yes, I come in with baggage, as do we all. Seeing honest criticism met with "just let us have our trashy thing and don't question or respond to it because that insults me!" and (especially in the previous thread) ad hominems that made uncharitable and frankly shitty assumptions about those participating then neither apologized or acknowledged those needless insults... Well it's not a great look.
So, yeah. Boundaries. It's clearly not just TV because it's part of this culture and both reflects and impacts how lots of people perceive relationships, brands, the notion of the protagonist's emotional intelligence, all those are things that affect how fans live their lives and what they expect from each other.
I mean, was Oprah responsible for the rise of several charlatans? I didn't watch the show but here we are in a world with her media creations in positions of power (nevermind the previously covered reality TV to politics pipelines). Pretending that TV stays TV when it's convenient ignores that we're all here in the world with you.
posted by abulafa at 6:48 AM on June 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Some folks - myself included - come to this kind of thread to figure out if there's some depth or connection I should understand about this particular TV thing. Yes, I come in with baggage, as do we all. Seeing honest criticism met with "just let us have our trashy thing and don't question or respond to it because that insults me!" and (especially in the previous thread) ad hominems that made uncharitable and frankly shitty assumptions about those participating then neither apologized or acknowledged those needless insults... Well it's not a great look.
It's also not a great look to be a flat out dick about other people's enjoyment. I don't watch this show but I don't go around looking for threads to be a dick in.
posted by Kitteh at 7:04 AM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's also not a great look to be a flat out dick about other people's enjoyment. I don't watch this show but I don't go around looking for threads to be a dick in.
posted by Kitteh at 7:04 AM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you want to be critical of all the grody bullshit that pops up in entertainment media, do so! That involves observing said media with a critical eye, and making specific critiques of the things going on. It does not look like waving your hands generally and saying "ALL OF THIS IS FUCKING SHIT!! BURN IT TO THE GROUND!! UNWASHED MASSES!!"
For instance: hypothetically—HYPOTHETICALLY—what if people were talking about a woman who had been cheated on, who handled the situation she found herself in bravely and gracefully and with aplomb, and then you rushed in and were like, "Actually this woman fucking SUCKS ASS, what a piece of SHIT"?
You'd come off like quite the boor, I'd imagine!! Not that that would ever really happen, ha ha! (I, too, like everybody else in this thread, didn't bother to read the actual post.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 7:43 AM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
For instance: hypothetically—HYPOTHETICALLY—what if people were talking about a woman who had been cheated on, who handled the situation she found herself in bravely and gracefully and with aplomb, and then you rushed in and were like, "Actually this woman fucking SUCKS ASS, what a piece of SHIT"?
You'd come off like quite the boor, I'd imagine!! Not that that would ever really happen, ha ha! (I, too, like everybody else in this thread, didn't bother to read the actual post.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 7:43 AM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
In case those are for me - I did read the post. I did wade through the inside baseball and weird old testament thing. I did read back through the previous post in its entirety. I did assume positive intent and generally "good for this person" with regard to working towards financial stability after this personal tragedy.
Then I read this thread and saw several incisive comments about the impossible line walked by this reality show and the real lives of those in it. About how new technologies and expressions of media always both truly undermine an existing system and also are perceived as move disruptive than they actually turn out to be by those in power. (While I agree in principle, I think it lets off the hook technologies and those who would weaponize them to undermine things like reality-based reasoning at a scale of assault never before possible, leveraging a parasocial vulnerability in the human psyche for their own ends.)
But as I considered how best to frame the criticisms I noticed some pretty unreasonable boundaries being laid out that, effectively, any criticism doesn't belong here - let us love our thing uncritically. There's a place for that and I don't think it's the front page.
Pushing back on that seemed to escalate it. Predictably, I suppose. But in short, we all spend time here and and while I do generally support leaving threads alone which "aren't for me", what about the ones that seem like they are for me and then rapidly become very much not? Not because they start that way but because we let them? Flagging and moving on just creates a silly mod burden for a somewhat nuanced problem - but here we are I guess.
I'm sure someone thinks I can't differentiate between drive by dickery and critique - the question isn't whether I can but whether those establishing new, non-consensus policies will. It didn't look like it was going a good direction.
posted by abulafa at 8:41 AM on June 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
Then I read this thread and saw several incisive comments about the impossible line walked by this reality show and the real lives of those in it. About how new technologies and expressions of media always both truly undermine an existing system and also are perceived as move disruptive than they actually turn out to be by those in power. (While I agree in principle, I think it lets off the hook technologies and those who would weaponize them to undermine things like reality-based reasoning at a scale of assault never before possible, leveraging a parasocial vulnerability in the human psyche for their own ends.)
But as I considered how best to frame the criticisms I noticed some pretty unreasonable boundaries being laid out that, effectively, any criticism doesn't belong here - let us love our thing uncritically. There's a place for that and I don't think it's the front page.
Pushing back on that seemed to escalate it. Predictably, I suppose. But in short, we all spend time here and and while I do generally support leaving threads alone which "aren't for me", what about the ones that seem like they are for me and then rapidly become very much not? Not because they start that way but because we let them? Flagging and moving on just creates a silly mod burden for a somewhat nuanced problem - but here we are I guess.
I'm sure someone thinks I can't differentiate between drive by dickery and critique - the question isn't whether I can but whether those establishing new, non-consensus policies will. It didn't look like it was going a good direction.
posted by abulafa at 8:41 AM on June 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
But as I considered how best to frame the criticisms I noticed some pretty unreasonable boundaries being laid out that, effectively, any criticism doesn't belong here - let us love our thing uncritically. There's a place for that and I don't think it's the front page.
Completely agree and I guess I think there's a lot of premature line-drawing in this thread. Both, the proposals for where to put the lines seem a bit unreasonable, and also they would preempt any collective effort to feel them out.
Obviously from the beginning reality programming has been used as a symbol of decadence by people who are not sincerely engaging in any conversation. But equally, not everything that seems judgmental or disapproving is per se a bad or bad faith contribution. You also can't really say, yes critical comments should be allowed but they have to meet my personal standard of detachment and insight. Obviously all comments should be pearls of wisdom that make us see the
I mean, in a way, who cares. It's not like there's any shortage of places to discuss reality TV drama from inside the fandom, I assume. And the same for places to criticize it. It's about what you can / should do here in particular. Hold up not sure I care anymore ttyl
posted by grobstein at 11:26 AM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Completely agree and I guess I think there's a lot of premature line-drawing in this thread. Both, the proposals for where to put the lines seem a bit unreasonable, and also they would preempt any collective effort to feel them out.
Obviously from the beginning reality programming has been used as a symbol of decadence by people who are not sincerely engaging in any conversation. But equally, not everything that seems judgmental or disapproving is per se a bad or bad faith contribution. You also can't really say, yes critical comments should be allowed but they have to meet my personal standard of detachment and insight. Obviously all comments should be pearls of wisdom that make us see the
I mean, in a way, who cares. It's not like there's any shortage of places to discuss reality TV drama from inside the fandom, I assume. And the same for places to criticize it. It's about what you can / should do here in particular. Hold up not sure I care anymore ttyl
posted by grobstein at 11:26 AM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
For instance: hypothetically—HYPOTHETICALLY—what if people were talking about a woman who had been cheated on, who handled the situation she found herself in bravely and gracefully and with aplomb, and then you rushed in and were like, "Actually this woman fucking SUCKS ASS, what a piece of SHIT"?
I haven't seen a lot of hate towards Ariana herself, maybe some hate towards the reality TV format. But odds are that Ariana is going to post something problematic, date someone questionable, or promote something gross and then we're all going to be like "I can't believe I liked that nasty bitch Ariana! I was rooting for her!"
posted by kingdead at 6:08 AM on June 11, 2023
I haven't seen a lot of hate towards Ariana herself, maybe some hate towards the reality TV format. But odds are that Ariana is going to post something problematic, date someone questionable, or promote something gross and then we're all going to be like "I can't believe I liked that nasty bitch Ariana! I was rooting for her!"
posted by kingdead at 6:08 AM on June 11, 2023
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oh it gives me a feminist thrill inside it does
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:46 AM on June 9, 2023 [15 favorites]