Hugo, we have a problem
July 10, 2023 9:08 PM Subscribe
The 2023 Hugo Award Nominees were announced on July 6.
The 81st World Science Fiction Convention will be hosted in Chengdu, China, netting substantive objections from industry authors due to human rights abuses. To make matters worse, one of the Guests of Honor will be Sergei Lukyanenko, Russian author and noted supporter of the war in Ukraine.
March 2022: an open letter to the WorldCon Committee signed by a number of prominent authors objected to the location of the conference on the basis of ongoing Chinese government human rights abuses and genocidal persecution of the Uyghur. Notable signatories include N.K. Jemisin, Martha Wells, Kate Elliot, and many others. The issue was also addressed in The BookSeller: Science Fiction's Moral Reckoning, which points out that the persecution of Uyghur intellectuals makes this an exceedingly uncomfortable locale for a writer's conference.
December 2022: a petition was launched to request the Chengdu Worldcon Organizing Committee to uninvite Sergei Lukyanenko, signed by over 2,000 people.
This week: one author announced that they withdrew their work from consideration after being offered a nomination. One other (Richard Man, nominee for Best Fan Artist) has stated they will remain on the ballot while refusing to attend. S. B. Divya, who was eligible for her novelette Two Hands, Wrapped In Gold, declined to be nominated, and asked that their name be removed from a re-nomination for Escape Pod, co-edited with Mur Lafferty. It is unknown how many other authors may have similarly declined consideration before nominations were made public, as it is common to delay announcement of such withdrawals until after awards are decided out of respect for other nominees. (Presumably Divya chose this timing because Escape Pod remains on the ballot, without their name attached to it, making their absence conspicuous.)
Conflict of interest declaration: your editor is personally acquainted with S. B. Divya but has not discussed this topic with them.
March 2022: an open letter to the WorldCon Committee signed by a number of prominent authors objected to the location of the conference on the basis of ongoing Chinese government human rights abuses and genocidal persecution of the Uyghur. Notable signatories include N.K. Jemisin, Martha Wells, Kate Elliot, and many others. The issue was also addressed in The BookSeller: Science Fiction's Moral Reckoning, which points out that the persecution of Uyghur intellectuals makes this an exceedingly uncomfortable locale for a writer's conference.
December 2022: a petition was launched to request the Chengdu Worldcon Organizing Committee to uninvite Sergei Lukyanenko, signed by over 2,000 people.
This week: one author announced that they withdrew their work from consideration after being offered a nomination. One other (Richard Man, nominee for Best Fan Artist) has stated they will remain on the ballot while refusing to attend. S. B. Divya, who was eligible for her novelette Two Hands, Wrapped In Gold, declined to be nominated, and asked that their name be removed from a re-nomination for Escape Pod, co-edited with Mur Lafferty. It is unknown how many other authors may have similarly declined consideration before nominations were made public, as it is common to delay announcement of such withdrawals until after awards are decided out of respect for other nominees. (Presumably Divya chose this timing because Escape Pod remains on the ballot, without their name attached to it, making their absence conspicuous.)
Conflict of interest declaration: your editor is personally acquainted with S. B. Divya but has not discussed this topic with them.
Hu-gotta-go, Sergei.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:36 PM on July 10, 2023
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:36 PM on July 10, 2023
Speculation about missing titles:
Rumor has it that Babel by R. F. Kuang was NOT a withdrawal.
The Mountain In The Sea by Ray Nayler depicts an independent Tibet, speculation that it may not be widely available in China
Conspicuous absences:
A Prayer for the Crown-Shy by Becky Chambers
Spear by Nicola Griffith
The World We Make by N. K. Jemisin
Sea of Tranquility by Emily St. John Mandel
posted by bq at 10:15 PM on July 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
Rumor has it that Babel by R. F. Kuang was NOT a withdrawal.
The Mountain In The Sea by Ray Nayler depicts an independent Tibet, speculation that it may not be widely available in China
Conspicuous absences:
A Prayer for the Crown-Shy by Becky Chambers
Spear by Nicola Griffith
The World We Make by N. K. Jemisin
Sea of Tranquility by Emily St. John Mandel
posted by bq at 10:15 PM on July 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
Chengdu certainly is the entirely predictable shitshow that was expected so far.
A pity, as the actual Hugo shortlist is a pretty good one.
posted by Artw at 11:03 PM on July 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
A pity, as the actual Hugo shortlist is a pretty good one.
posted by Artw at 11:03 PM on July 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's a shame - Chinese speculative fiction is so interesting! Three Body Problem is great but Liu Cixin is just the tip of the iceberg. It would be pretty cool to go hang out with a bunch of Chinese sci-fi nerds in Chengdu, sigh.
posted by catcafe at 11:25 PM on July 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by catcafe at 11:25 PM on July 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Three Body Problem is great
The astrophysical system that's central to the story of The Three-Body Problem is an example of a FOUR-body problem. Its title is therefore INVALID.
posted by The Tensor at 12:04 AM on July 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
The astrophysical system that's central to the story of The Three-Body Problem is an example of a FOUR-body problem. Its title is therefore INVALID.
posted by The Tensor at 12:04 AM on July 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Who made the decision to host it in Chengdu, anyway?
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:01 AM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:01 AM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Kadin2048, there's a complicated voting system where fans from various localities complete as groups to host a worldcon. The Chinese fans got the most votes.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:25 AM on July 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:25 AM on July 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
So this year the Hugos decided to ruin their own selves instead of waiting for some conglomeration of Puppies, Sad or otherwise?
Lovely.
posted by Scattercat at 2:13 AM on July 11, 2023 [20 favorites]
Lovely.
posted by Scattercat at 2:13 AM on July 11, 2023 [20 favorites]
Relatedly, there was a bid for Jeddah, Saudi Arabia for WorldCon 2022, which ended up going to Chicago instead. To put it in intentionally neutral terms, much as with the Chengdu bid, there was a lot of arguing about whether Saudi Arabia was a country one should even have a WorldCon in.
posted by Zarkonnen at 2:22 AM on July 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Zarkonnen at 2:22 AM on July 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
They're going to have to split it off into an explicitly Western/possibly American-only literature event or somehow disqualify the Chinese from voting if they are dead set on this not happening again. There's a big Chinese sci-fi audience who will naturally want to host at home or will propose "neutral" ground that isn't neutral enough.
posted by kingdead at 4:24 AM on July 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 4:24 AM on July 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Nicholas Whyte shared his assessment of the ballot, including of the "Babel" rumor.
posted by brainwane at 5:13 AM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by brainwane at 5:13 AM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
The astrophysical system that's central to the story of The Three-Body Problem is an example of a FOUR-body problem. Its title is therefore INVALID.
posted by The Tensor
This has bothered me from the first time I read it, I'm glad I'm not the only one
posted by KirTakat at 6:25 AM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The Tensor
This has bothered me from the first time I read it, I'm glad I'm not the only one
posted by KirTakat at 6:25 AM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
John Wiswell, also a finalist, wrote about it as well, specifically calling out the Guest of Honor choices.
The Hugos and Worldcon have a complicated relationship - they're technically separate entities, and administered separately, but they're also historically inseparable. Worldcon is put on by a different group of volunteers every year - in the US, there are some Usual Suspects who often either participate or at least advise regardless of the location, but especially overseas, it's a bunch of amateurs putting on a huge event and so it goes... amateurishly, usually. The Hugos are much simpler and don't conceptually *need* to be tied to Worldcon, and it's possible that there might need to be a greater degree of separation, especially as Worldcon seems to be getting more actually-worldwide and issues like this are likely to keep cropping up. It particularly sucks that the Hugo Awards have been getting more and more diverse, but people like S.B. Divya feel shut out by Worldcon itself.
That said, I am also not enjoying this opportunity for every overt racist *and* every low-information kneejerk liberal in the genre to show their ass. There's a lot of ass out there right now.
posted by restless_nomad at 6:29 AM on July 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
The Hugos and Worldcon have a complicated relationship - they're technically separate entities, and administered separately, but they're also historically inseparable. Worldcon is put on by a different group of volunteers every year - in the US, there are some Usual Suspects who often either participate or at least advise regardless of the location, but especially overseas, it's a bunch of amateurs putting on a huge event and so it goes... amateurishly, usually. The Hugos are much simpler and don't conceptually *need* to be tied to Worldcon, and it's possible that there might need to be a greater degree of separation, especially as Worldcon seems to be getting more actually-worldwide and issues like this are likely to keep cropping up. It particularly sucks that the Hugo Awards have been getting more and more diverse, but people like S.B. Divya feel shut out by Worldcon itself.
That said, I am also not enjoying this opportunity for every overt racist *and* every low-information kneejerk liberal in the genre to show their ass. There's a lot of ass out there right now.
posted by restless_nomad at 6:29 AM on July 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments and responses removed. Per the Community Guidelines, please be considerate and sensitive to context. Suggesting Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA as an alternative location in a post about about a different location that's causing controversy concerning human rights abuses isn't helpful or funny and will derail the current conversation.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:37 AM on July 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:37 AM on July 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
As far as I can tell, a lot of people don't think a Worldcon is a Worldcon unless the Hugo winners are announced there.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:45 AM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:45 AM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
it's interesting that RF Kuang wasn't on the list given that her previous trilogy essentially had the Nationalists (ie Taiwan for the Americans here) coming out on top of WWII with her surrogate Mao ceding control in an, imo, pretty hamfisted realization that she's too emotionally unstable to govern (which also means she set up a pretty boy princeling instead of a peasant farmer woman overcoming sexist adversity to rule? like... hm)
that said, I do think there's something universally comical about Americans decrying China's human rights abuses when there's ongoing systemic, American-government-backed human rights abuses that are quite easily Googleable
are kids in cages bad? because there's still kids in cages. is Biden's deportation of Haitians on a mass scale bad? because that's happening a lot. was Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, and the various drone strikes of family and children bad? because that was a hell of a way to start of Biden's Presidency
which isn't to say that the nation state-backed ethnic corralling and oppression of Uighurs in China isn't bad - it's horrible - but if you'd like to talk to any of your Arab and Muslim friends about their experience of US law enforcement sometime, I'm sure you might hear some fairly similar things
I think the issue for me is whether or not specifically there have been influences by the oppression machine that is every nation state on this planet on the winners, the choices, the attendees - and with John Chu, a Taiwanese American nominated, I think there's something of a less likely chance of that though, again, RF Kuang's Babel seems to be making everyone's shortlist this year so I'm curious to know how that decision making process for the most prestigious of the Hugo Awards went
posted by paimapi at 8:14 AM on July 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
that said, I do think there's something universally comical about Americans decrying China's human rights abuses when there's ongoing systemic, American-government-backed human rights abuses that are quite easily Googleable
are kids in cages bad? because there's still kids in cages. is Biden's deportation of Haitians on a mass scale bad? because that's happening a lot. was Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, and the various drone strikes of family and children bad? because that was a hell of a way to start of Biden's Presidency
which isn't to say that the nation state-backed ethnic corralling and oppression of Uighurs in China isn't bad - it's horrible - but if you'd like to talk to any of your Arab and Muslim friends about their experience of US law enforcement sometime, I'm sure you might hear some fairly similar things
I think the issue for me is whether or not specifically there have been influences by the oppression machine that is every nation state on this planet on the winners, the choices, the attendees - and with John Chu, a Taiwanese American nominated, I think there's something of a less likely chance of that though, again, RF Kuang's Babel seems to be making everyone's shortlist this year so I'm curious to know how that decision making process for the most prestigious of the Hugo Awards went
posted by paimapi at 8:14 AM on July 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
Mod note: Few comments removed per Community Guidelines. Please focus on the topic, not other posters.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:15 AM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:15 AM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
If you (pl) are assuming the authors who have spoken out this week are white Americans, you are almost entirely incorrect.
posted by bq at 8:15 AM on July 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by bq at 8:15 AM on July 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
I’ll also point out that the petition to remove Sergei Lukyanenko originated in Polish fandom. The Open Letter originated in Canada and was spearheaded by Sarah Mughal Rana, a Muslim writer and social outreach member of Uyghur Rights Advocacy Project, and Dr. Ausma Khan, author of The Khorasan Archives quartet and human rights lawyer.
“Rana told File 770 today, “It was our idea because we both are Muslim SFF writers but it was also done with Uyghurs who cannot be named for safety reasons. I lived in China, I also work for the Uyghur Rights Advocacy Project – so this letter was made also in collaboration with most of the listed Uyghur rights groups that signed the letter to put their perspective, fact-check, and prioritize their opinions.”
This is not an American issue or an American reaction.
posted by bq at 8:28 AM on July 11, 2023 [26 favorites]
“Rana told File 770 today, “It was our idea because we both are Muslim SFF writers but it was also done with Uyghurs who cannot be named for safety reasons. I lived in China, I also work for the Uyghur Rights Advocacy Project – so this letter was made also in collaboration with most of the listed Uyghur rights groups that signed the letter to put their perspective, fact-check, and prioritize their opinions.”
This is not an American issue or an American reaction.
posted by bq at 8:28 AM on July 11, 2023 [26 favorites]
Having thought about it a bit, my actual take:
The question of whether to do events in countries with human rights abuses is not new - consider the evergreen question as to whether bands should do gigs in certain places. And I genuinely don't know which approach is better: "do events so people aren't isolated and international understanding can grow" or "don't do events so that governments can see that there are consequences".
But I do find it telling that the Jeddah bid got rejected while Chengdu got accepted. It's easier to go to a WorldCon where the human rights abuses are nicely hidden away somewhere else, and your experience won't be impacted by them.
posted by Zarkonnen at 8:34 AM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
The question of whether to do events in countries with human rights abuses is not new - consider the evergreen question as to whether bands should do gigs in certain places. And I genuinely don't know which approach is better: "do events so people aren't isolated and international understanding can grow" or "don't do events so that governments can see that there are consequences".
But I do find it telling that the Jeddah bid got rejected while Chengdu got accepted. It's easier to go to a WorldCon where the human rights abuses are nicely hidden away somewhere else, and your experience won't be impacted by them.
posted by Zarkonnen at 8:34 AM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
is this the part where we prop up BIPOC as tokens of how this obviously has nothing to do with a predominantly white American audience that makes up a lot of the Hugo Awards audience because look at the BIPOC saying the same thing we all are, we require no further critical analysis of our own opinions, lol?
I'm also finding out that RF Kuang's maternal grandfather literally fought for Chiang Kai-Shek which, well, if my understanding of the CCP is correct, is just the kind of pettiness that a mid-level official helping coordinate this event would look to act upon in order to advance in the party ranks
that said, that info was gleaned from a fairly positive SCMP profile of the author written a few years after their acquisition by Alibaba (ie a Chinese media conglomerate with party members in leadership positions) so it's all still just supposition and speculation on mine and anyone's end
posted by paimapi at 8:35 AM on July 11, 2023
I'm also finding out that RF Kuang's maternal grandfather literally fought for Chiang Kai-Shek which, well, if my understanding of the CCP is correct, is just the kind of pettiness that a mid-level official helping coordinate this event would look to act upon in order to advance in the party ranks
that said, that info was gleaned from a fairly positive SCMP profile of the author written a few years after their acquisition by Alibaba (ie a Chinese media conglomerate with party members in leadership positions) so it's all still just supposition and speculation on mine and anyone's end
posted by paimapi at 8:35 AM on July 11, 2023
Whyte noted regarding Babel by R.F. Kuang:
But I do find it telling that the Jeddah bid got rejected while Chengdu got accepted.
I am in the bit of fandom that goes to Worldcon. The Chengdu bid had a lot more individual fans from the host city/bid committee actively showing up at other conventions, putting out publicity materials, engaging in conversations in person and online (including about potential participants' concerns), and otherwise promoting their bid than the Jeddah bid did, as I recall. So that's also worth noting.
posted by brainwane at 8:37 AM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hugo voters have different tastes to Nebula and Locus voters, and it’s not at all unusual that a Nebula winning novel fails to make the Hugo ballot – I count eight precedents so far this century, starting with Octavia Butler’s Parable of the Talents.To the point Zarkonnen made:
But I do find it telling that the Jeddah bid got rejected while Chengdu got accepted.
I am in the bit of fandom that goes to Worldcon. The Chengdu bid had a lot more individual fans from the host city/bid committee actively showing up at other conventions, putting out publicity materials, engaging in conversations in person and online (including about potential participants' concerns), and otherwise promoting their bid than the Jeddah bid did, as I recall. So that's also worth noting.
posted by brainwane at 8:37 AM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Jeddah wasn't 'rejected', it just didn't win. Chengdu did, likely because as noted above there was a lot more genuine fan activity and voting.
posted by tavella at 8:47 AM on July 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tavella at 8:47 AM on July 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Just a note to anyone interested in future Worldcons elsewhere, it will be held in Glasgow in 2024--follow along at that link for more news--and Seattle is the only bid on the ballot for 2025.
posted by Wobbuffet at 8:54 AM on July 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Wobbuffet at 8:54 AM on July 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don’t understand why anyone would think it’s unlikely that a boycott aimed at objecting to the Ughyur genocide and objecting to inviting a Russian propagandist would be led by Muslim and European activists.
posted by bq at 9:02 AM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by bq at 9:02 AM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Apparently according to the wisdom of the poster, they are mere tokens and have no agency of their own. Very respectful.
posted by tavella at 9:05 AM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tavella at 9:05 AM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mod note: [btw, this post has been added to the sidebar]
posted by taz (staff) at 9:05 AM on July 11, 2023
posted by taz (staff) at 9:05 AM on July 11, 2023
Jeddah wasn't 'rejected', it just didn't win
Yeah, site selection is done by people with Worldcon memberships for the Worldcon two years before a given year. So you need a large enough base of attendees in a given region to vote for a given site. (Sites often throw parties/campaign/do a lot of outreach to build up this base.) I'm not at all surprised that China has more fans than Saudi Arabia, because China has... a lot more people than Saudi Arabia, and Chinese SF has been getting translated to English at an increasing rate and there's at least one Chinese mag that translates English short SF. I am not aware of equivalent efforts to/from Arabic, and if they're happening, they haven't hit the major publishers yet.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:12 AM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah, site selection is done by people with Worldcon memberships for the Worldcon two years before a given year. So you need a large enough base of attendees in a given region to vote for a given site. (Sites often throw parties/campaign/do a lot of outreach to build up this base.) I'm not at all surprised that China has more fans than Saudi Arabia, because China has... a lot more people than Saudi Arabia, and Chinese SF has been getting translated to English at an increasing rate and there's at least one Chinese mag that translates English short SF. I am not aware of equivalent efforts to/from Arabic, and if they're happening, they haven't hit the major publishers yet.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:12 AM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was in Dublin in 2019 and three years before actual site selection voting Chengdu was running a very prominent campaign - it wasn't the first year either. Stands, panels, parties, swag. The only other 2023 bid present was Nice, France, and they looked much less organised (and ended up withdrawing). I got the feeling that Winnipeg, the city that ended up on the ballot in 2022 as Chengdu's competition, only started up their campaign less than a year in advance. Chinese fans have been wanting a Worldcon for years now.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 9:35 AM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by I claim sanctuary at 9:35 AM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was in the online conversations in CoNZealand about Jeddah, and apart from it being probably a weak bid anyway, there were a lot of people who very much objected to the idea of having WorldCon in Saudi Arabia.
But you're right, there's plenty other reasons why Jeddah failed where Chengdu succeeded.
posted by Zarkonnen at 9:38 AM on July 11, 2023
But you're right, there's plenty other reasons why Jeddah failed where Chengdu succeeded.
posted by Zarkonnen at 9:38 AM on July 11, 2023
I feel bad for anyone nominated this year who doesn't feel safe going here.
I know people in the SF community are so psyched about the Hugos, but man, it seems like almost every year there is some kind of drama. I know you can't help who got the majority vote and I feel bad for the Chinese geeks, but...ugh, just ugh on the safety issues. It makes me sad.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I know people in the SF community are so psyched about the Hugos, but man, it seems like almost every year there is some kind of drama. I know you can't help who got the majority vote and I feel bad for the Chinese geeks, but...ugh, just ugh on the safety issues. It makes me sad.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the topic of human rights abuses, yes, the US has a particularly lousy record. But we stopped committing organized genocide against our own people in 1968. China is actively committing genocide. They are sterilizing people, keeping them in concentration camps, doing their best to wipe out Uyghur culture.
It's not just human rights. It's attempting to wipe out a people in their entirety, either culturally or physically to those who will not assimilate.
At the same time, Chengdu did win legitimately. There is the real life factor of good old fashion racism at play as well. There is a huge SFF market in China and the fans have a right to ask to be recognized. I guess I wish there was a way to grant the location but throw something into the charter that countries engaged in genocide or aggressive wars are ineligible until said behavior stops. Essentially, hold it in Chengdu the year that the Uyghur genocide stops. It's unrealistic, I know, but I have trouble coming up with any other idea to deal with it.
As for Lukyanenko, I have the entire Watch series translated on my shelves. I bought them before the Sochi Olympics. He's in the same category as Woody Allen, JK Rowling, Roman Polansky, etc. As long as he continues to breath and does not try to make amends for what he has said and done, I will not be consuming anything he has created, as much as I really enjoy his writing. If you want to read some good Russian SFF, check out the Metro series. It's just as good and the author isn't encouraging additional war crimes.
posted by Hactar at 12:49 PM on July 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's not just human rights. It's attempting to wipe out a people in their entirety, either culturally or physically to those who will not assimilate.
At the same time, Chengdu did win legitimately. There is the real life factor of good old fashion racism at play as well. There is a huge SFF market in China and the fans have a right to ask to be recognized. I guess I wish there was a way to grant the location but throw something into the charter that countries engaged in genocide or aggressive wars are ineligible until said behavior stops. Essentially, hold it in Chengdu the year that the Uyghur genocide stops. It's unrealistic, I know, but I have trouble coming up with any other idea to deal with it.
As for Lukyanenko, I have the entire Watch series translated on my shelves. I bought them before the Sochi Olympics. He's in the same category as Woody Allen, JK Rowling, Roman Polansky, etc. As long as he continues to breath and does not try to make amends for what he has said and done, I will not be consuming anything he has created, as much as I really enjoy his writing. If you want to read some good Russian SFF, check out the Metro series. It's just as good and the author isn't encouraging additional war crimes.
posted by Hactar at 12:49 PM on July 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
seems like almost every year there is some kind of drama.
2021 there was controversy bc their major sponsor was Raytheon.
2020 there was controversy bc GRRM mispronounced a bunch of people’s names when giving them awards, and overcrowding issues.
2019 Jeanette Ng caught flack for pointing out that Campbell was a rascist fascist during her acceptance speech
2018 Worldcon committee had to start over in the middle of programming due to pushback on various sketchy choices
2013-2017 saw Sad Puppies drama
I guess 2022 went ok? It’s not a good record.
posted by bq at 1:28 PM on July 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
2021 there was controversy bc their major sponsor was Raytheon.
2020 there was controversy bc GRRM mispronounced a bunch of people’s names when giving them awards, and overcrowding issues.
2019 Jeanette Ng caught flack for pointing out that Campbell was a rascist fascist during her acceptance speech
2018 Worldcon committee had to start over in the middle of programming due to pushback on various sketchy choices
2013-2017 saw Sad Puppies drama
I guess 2022 went ok? It’s not a good record.
posted by bq at 1:28 PM on July 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hahahah, I did think "wasn't there one year of no drama?" and amended my "every year" comment before posting.
I wouldn't be inclined to pay for a Hugo membership (never gonna go to that con) just to vote on the winners anyway because I just wanna read what I wanna read without having to read it all, but there is so much drama almost every year that even if I wanted to, I don't think I'd want to pay up to be able to vote. Even if I think Seanan McGuire needs to win Best Series for October Daye, as it is literally the best plotted series I've ever read (and made a fan site for) in my life.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:36 PM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't be inclined to pay for a Hugo membership (never gonna go to that con) just to vote on the winners anyway because I just wanna read what I wanna read without having to read it all, but there is so much drama almost every year that even if I wanted to, I don't think I'd want to pay up to be able to vote. Even if I think Seanan McGuire needs to win Best Series for October Daye, as it is literally the best plotted series I've ever read (and made a fan site for) in my life.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:36 PM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hmmm, I’ve mixed up those years and events some. Nobody rely on that list.
posted by bq at 1:39 PM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by bq at 1:39 PM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
This post reminds me I need to check in with my friends in Hugo fandom and see how they are with this and whether they're going or not. So thanks for that.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 1:42 PM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by gentlyepigrams at 1:42 PM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
2022 did seem like a low-drama year, yeah. Part of the perpetual-drama part of the Hugos, though, is that it is an all-volunteer, fan-run, popular-vote award and Worldcon is likewise fan-run and all-volunteer. This means the people involved in it are involved in it for, usually, intense personal reasons (and artistic-career reasons, which are not less intense) and so there are always going to be big personalities and amateur-hour fuckups and all the static involved in trying to run a thing where thousands of (increasingly diverse on a number of axes) people are involved. You don't have professional conrunning and PR firms and a central entity to be mad at, you have, at this point, some seventy years of culture and grudges and weird intersections between the personal, the political, and the professional. It's not gonna be clean and slick and polished and I think that's kinda the charm.
For example, the whole Sad Puppies drama was appalling, but it also brought a lot of simmering conflict to the surface and made people confront it and think about it and, you know, insofar as there was a winner, it was the good guys. Jeanette Ng caught flack for calling out Campbell and that's shitty, no question, but also... it's not the Campbell Award any more. There's room for change in this slice of culture, and while making it happen is maybe more of a brawl than I would prefer, at least it's happening.
posted by restless_nomad at 2:21 PM on July 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
For example, the whole Sad Puppies drama was appalling, but it also brought a lot of simmering conflict to the surface and made people confront it and think about it and, you know, insofar as there was a winner, it was the good guys. Jeanette Ng caught flack for calling out Campbell and that's shitty, no question, but also... it's not the Campbell Award any more. There's room for change in this slice of culture, and while making it happen is maybe more of a brawl than I would prefer, at least it's happening.
posted by restless_nomad at 2:21 PM on July 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
2022 was a low drama year as much as possible because my lovely partner (who was the chair of the convention) worked her (and her committee's) asses off to make it turn up that way (carrying forward as many possible lessons from years past in the process). One thing that hits the Worldcon (less so the Hugos) is that the convention is run by an entirely different organization every year, and probably doesn't act anything like what you might assume an 80-year-old institution does. There are very few rules, a lot of tradition, and not many mechanisms to make rules that'll stick in any case. (Whether that's good or bad, I'll decline to say)
The Hugo Awards, though... those are, barring a very small set of technical disqualifications that can be seen clearly in the nomination data that is released after the awards are given, entirely shortlisted by members of the current and previous convention, and voted on by members of the current one. There's no "Hugo Awards" to be screwing up; when you say that, you're saying that the people who read SF/F are screwing up, not some mysterious organizations or shadowy cabals. The same is true of site selection; there is no cabal, nobody's awarding anything. It's possibly the best example of why a pure democracy miiiiiight not be the perfect system for all things, since this is basically the end result.
(disclaimer: the Hugo Award administrator for Chengdu was literally staying at my house last night, my partner is the site selection administrator, etc, etc. I'm about as close to people in this as you can get without actually being a conrunner)
posted by ChrisR at 3:29 PM on July 11, 2023 [23 favorites]
The Hugo Awards, though... those are, barring a very small set of technical disqualifications that can be seen clearly in the nomination data that is released after the awards are given, entirely shortlisted by members of the current and previous convention, and voted on by members of the current one. There's no "Hugo Awards" to be screwing up; when you say that, you're saying that the people who read SF/F are screwing up, not some mysterious organizations or shadowy cabals. The same is true of site selection; there is no cabal, nobody's awarding anything. It's possibly the best example of why a pure democracy miiiiiight not be the perfect system for all things, since this is basically the end result.
(disclaimer: the Hugo Award administrator for Chengdu was literally staying at my house last night, my partner is the site selection administrator, etc, etc. I'm about as close to people in this as you can get without actually being a conrunner)
posted by ChrisR at 3:29 PM on July 11, 2023 [23 favorites]
that said, I do think there's something universally comical about Americans decrying China's human rights abuses when there's ongoing systemic, American-government-backed human rights abuses that are quite easily Googleable
That the US has and continues to have human rights issues does not excuse China, nor does it make what China has done and continues to do acceptable, and this "both sidesism" is a rhetorical tactic employed by truly vile people for generations. (Stalinists seem particularly fond of it.)
But they are nothing but a propagandistic distraction, and as arguments they are as devoid of merit as the "but both parties are bad!" political takes internal to the US.
Does the US do awful shit? Yes. But there is nothing going on currently in the US that approaches the scale and human cost of what the Chinese government is currently doing in the western parts of that country, or indeed that it has done with alarming regularity throughout its history. (And even if there were, it wouldn't make the Chinese less guilty of genocide; it would just make the US also guilty. That is not the defense you think it is.) It's moral relativist—perhaps moral absenteeist—garbage.
If your argument is that the US's behavior makes it an unsuitable place for an international event, by all means feel free to make that argument—people have, historically, done so and there are, or at least have been at times, significant merits in it. But hand-waving at the US's record does not excuse China's.
Do better.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:23 AM on July 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
That the US has and continues to have human rights issues does not excuse China, nor does it make what China has done and continues to do acceptable, and this "both sidesism" is a rhetorical tactic employed by truly vile people for generations. (Stalinists seem particularly fond of it.)
But they are nothing but a propagandistic distraction, and as arguments they are as devoid of merit as the "but both parties are bad!" political takes internal to the US.
Does the US do awful shit? Yes. But there is nothing going on currently in the US that approaches the scale and human cost of what the Chinese government is currently doing in the western parts of that country, or indeed that it has done with alarming regularity throughout its history. (And even if there were, it wouldn't make the Chinese less guilty of genocide; it would just make the US also guilty. That is not the defense you think it is.) It's moral relativist—perhaps moral absenteeist—garbage.
If your argument is that the US's behavior makes it an unsuitable place for an international event, by all means feel free to make that argument—people have, historically, done so and there are, or at least have been at times, significant merits in it. But hand-waving at the US's record does not excuse China's.
Do better.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:23 AM on July 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Do better.
you know, it's always interesting as a Chinese immigrant raised in the US to be stranded between two sides of this convo - on one side, it's Chinese nationalists criticizing me for criticizing China with comments like 'ah so this is the diaspora from the imperial core defending the monster that is the US' and on the other side are the Americans, predominantly white, who say 'China is a truly despicable monstrous country and you are truly despicable and monstrous for defending it'
it's analogous to that perpetual foreigner experience - you're never Chinese enough to be Chinese, you're never American enough to be American, something that I'm sure many Chinese American authors themselves (RF Kuang included) probably have to contend with esp in convos like these
neither side, of course, see this perspective because neither side recognizes or even if they do incorporates their own positionality into the conversation. it's always a high horse, philosophical distinction devoid of, say, whether or not you yourself are an American fed a diet of anti-Chinese propaganda, whose feelings are indubitably supported in an American-centric web forum or the opposite, a wu mao picking up a thread posted by the propaganda machine. because it's comments like
But there is nothing going on currently in the US that approaches the scale and human cost of what the Chinese government is currently doing in the western parts of that country
that I'm like... yeah, the history of indigenous Americans and our current placement of them in infrastructure barren places with no resources along with concerted efforts by Christian institutions to systemically sexually abuse and murder them, sure, that definitely doesn't exist and it's certainly never been anywhere near as bad as what China's doing to the Uighurs. nor has the treatment of the US of it's Black population by forcing them into carceral slavery in double digit percentages to this very day - that's certainly, again, not nearly as bad and isn't redolent of a centuries long project of white supremacy
to be so mad that I would dare imply that US domestic policies are even nearly close to as bad as Chinese domestic policies when both nation states have vested interests and active programs to enforce ethnic supremacy, white and Han, that have extended back centuries is just... at this point it's just amusing to me more than anything else lol
posted by paimapi at 9:29 AM on July 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
you know, it's always interesting as a Chinese immigrant raised in the US to be stranded between two sides of this convo - on one side, it's Chinese nationalists criticizing me for criticizing China with comments like 'ah so this is the diaspora from the imperial core defending the monster that is the US' and on the other side are the Americans, predominantly white, who say 'China is a truly despicable monstrous country and you are truly despicable and monstrous for defending it'
it's analogous to that perpetual foreigner experience - you're never Chinese enough to be Chinese, you're never American enough to be American, something that I'm sure many Chinese American authors themselves (RF Kuang included) probably have to contend with esp in convos like these
neither side, of course, see this perspective because neither side recognizes or even if they do incorporates their own positionality into the conversation. it's always a high horse, philosophical distinction devoid of, say, whether or not you yourself are an American fed a diet of anti-Chinese propaganda, whose feelings are indubitably supported in an American-centric web forum or the opposite, a wu mao picking up a thread posted by the propaganda machine. because it's comments like
But there is nothing going on currently in the US that approaches the scale and human cost of what the Chinese government is currently doing in the western parts of that country
that I'm like... yeah, the history of indigenous Americans and our current placement of them in infrastructure barren places with no resources along with concerted efforts by Christian institutions to systemically sexually abuse and murder them, sure, that definitely doesn't exist and it's certainly never been anywhere near as bad as what China's doing to the Uighurs. nor has the treatment of the US of it's Black population by forcing them into carceral slavery in double digit percentages to this very day - that's certainly, again, not nearly as bad and isn't redolent of a centuries long project of white supremacy
to be so mad that I would dare imply that US domestic policies are even nearly close to as bad as Chinese domestic policies when both nation states have vested interests and active programs to enforce ethnic supremacy, white and Han, that have extended back centuries is just... at this point it's just amusing to me more than anything else lol
posted by paimapi at 9:29 AM on July 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
The US has a sordid history of land theft, slavery, and genocide. I'm not, and no reasonable person should, dispute that.
But whether the US did shitty stuff is not relevant to the wrongness of what the Chinese government is doing.
Genocide is always wrong, period.
It doesn't become somehow excusable because other states have done it. That's some real bullshit moral relativism, and that's the most charitable way I can put it.
In purely pragmatic terms, the second you start allowing "but $STATE did $HORRIBLE_THING in the past, so we should be able to do it too!" there are no limits to what becomes allowable, because there are a practically infinite number of historical justifications for any horrible thing you want to do. There are extant states that have gotten away with land theft (basically all of them depending on your time horizon), with genocide (many of them), chattel slavery (at least a few dozen by my napkin math), systematic rape as a tool of warfare (Japan, probably others), etc. States, whether by virtue of being recently-created or simply having not had or taken the opportunity, do not bank up 'atrocity credits' that they can choose to spend when advantageous.
China's arguments are, as the USSR's were in past decades, morally bankrupt and largely incoherent; they are an intellectual smokescreen designed to create a sense of debatability in which they can act with impunity until their actions become a fait accompli. (It is not dissimilar to how the oil companies work to create an atmosphere of uncertainty around climate change to allow them to continue to pollute.) In either case, actual engagement with the arguments as presented is normally a mistake and amounts to pig-wrestling.
I've engaged so far because of an assumption of good faith here on Metafilter, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go: if we can't agree that genocide is intrinsically wrong for a state to engage in, there's really no middle ground from which to base any discussion.
posted by Kadin2048 at 2:58 PM on July 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
But whether the US did shitty stuff is not relevant to the wrongness of what the Chinese government is doing.
Genocide is always wrong, period.
It doesn't become somehow excusable because other states have done it. That's some real bullshit moral relativism, and that's the most charitable way I can put it.
In purely pragmatic terms, the second you start allowing "but $STATE did $HORRIBLE_THING in the past, so we should be able to do it too!" there are no limits to what becomes allowable, because there are a practically infinite number of historical justifications for any horrible thing you want to do. There are extant states that have gotten away with land theft (basically all of them depending on your time horizon), with genocide (many of them), chattel slavery (at least a few dozen by my napkin math), systematic rape as a tool of warfare (Japan, probably others), etc. States, whether by virtue of being recently-created or simply having not had or taken the opportunity, do not bank up 'atrocity credits' that they can choose to spend when advantageous.
China's arguments are, as the USSR's were in past decades, morally bankrupt and largely incoherent; they are an intellectual smokescreen designed to create a sense of debatability in which they can act with impunity until their actions become a fait accompli. (It is not dissimilar to how the oil companies work to create an atmosphere of uncertainty around climate change to allow them to continue to pollute.) In either case, actual engagement with the arguments as presented is normally a mistake and amounts to pig-wrestling.
I've engaged so far because of an assumption of good faith here on Metafilter, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go: if we can't agree that genocide is intrinsically wrong for a state to engage in, there's really no middle ground from which to base any discussion.
posted by Kadin2048 at 2:58 PM on July 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
your good faith assumption of the point I'm trying to make is that I'm claiming genocide is fine? lol whats your bad faith assumption? I'd like to think I was trying to make a nuanced point about how people don't realize the extent of their internalized jingoism and how that affects their opinion of largely non-state related things like where the Hugo Awards are hosted by pointing out the hypocritical lack of fervor on posts about events hosted in the US on a US centric web forum like this one but maybe you're right, maybe I'm just a genocide apologist like all my Chinese ilk :(
posted by paimapi at 3:29 PM on July 18, 2023
posted by paimapi at 3:29 PM on July 18, 2023
Umm, but the entire point is that no one raises an objection when the US hosts something. It's a given that the US is a complicated place, where minorities are still treated terribly and the Iraq war is still a recent memory, but there are no organized protests against it hosting events like this.
The idea that we can't discuss China's hosting in the context of the global hegemon is absurd. Whataboutism isn't what's happening in this thread.
posted by chaz at 5:39 PM on July 18, 2023
The idea that we can't discuss China's hosting in the context of the global hegemon is absurd. Whataboutism isn't what's happening in this thread.
posted by chaz at 5:39 PM on July 18, 2023
the entire point is that no one raises an objection when the US hosts something.
I very much doubt that's true. But the people who are objecting aren't going to be the US-based fans, who have the reasonable desire for Worldcon to be somewhere accessible and affordable to them at least part of the time, just like the concom in Chengdu is not where I'd go to find public objections to China's government. Again, this is a volunteer-run event and the locations are selected by popular vote among members. Since the bulk of SF publishing is still English-language, it's not at all a surprise that Worldcons are very nearly always held in English-speaking countries, and that the US is heavily represented.
It is very nice to see, though, that in the last ten or fifteen years, there has been a vastly higher rate of non-US Worldcons, and I hope that continues. The more non-US Worldcons we have, the more people get experience running them, and the more objections to US-based events can be paired with a functional alternative. Seattle is the only bid for 2025 - if people object to that, then the way this event works, someone needs to come up with a bid package for somewhere else. It's kind of pointless, in my opinion, to suggest that because the US government sucks, people who live in the US shouldn't... gather? Hold events? I mean, what is the actual win condition there?
posted by restless_nomad at 6:54 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I very much doubt that's true. But the people who are objecting aren't going to be the US-based fans, who have the reasonable desire for Worldcon to be somewhere accessible and affordable to them at least part of the time, just like the concom in Chengdu is not where I'd go to find public objections to China's government. Again, this is a volunteer-run event and the locations are selected by popular vote among members. Since the bulk of SF publishing is still English-language, it's not at all a surprise that Worldcons are very nearly always held in English-speaking countries, and that the US is heavily represented.
It is very nice to see, though, that in the last ten or fifteen years, there has been a vastly higher rate of non-US Worldcons, and I hope that continues. The more non-US Worldcons we have, the more people get experience running them, and the more objections to US-based events can be paired with a functional alternative. Seattle is the only bid for 2025 - if people object to that, then the way this event works, someone needs to come up with a bid package for somewhere else. It's kind of pointless, in my opinion, to suggest that because the US government sucks, people who live in the US shouldn't... gather? Hold events? I mean, what is the actual win condition there?
posted by restless_nomad at 6:54 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Gonna be interesting if anyone tries hosting anything in Florida ever again.
posted by Artw at 7:37 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:37 AM on July 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Good point. There have been plenty of state level boycotts within the US when objectionable laws are passed. The Indiana boycott was extremely effective.
posted by bq at 8:00 AM on July 19, 2023
posted by bq at 8:00 AM on July 19, 2023
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