Coronation conductor does a Clarkson
August 23, 2023 3:25 PM Subscribe
Sir John Eliot Gardiner has reportedly struck a singer after a performance of Berlioz's Les Troyens at the Berlioz Festival in France.
"According to our informants, and with confirmation by a person authorised to speak on Gardiner’s behalf, Gardiner was annoyed that the English bass singer, William Thomas, 29, left the podium on the wrong side. Backstage, in the wings and out of sight of the audience, Gardiner, 80, rebuked Thomas in front of the cast, then slapped and punched him in the face."
OperaWire
Daily Telegraph [icky right-wing paper, paywalled]
Mirror of the Telegraph article at Microsoft News
This isn't Gardiner's first report of violence; in 2014 he was reported to have struck a trumpet player during a rehearsal with the London Symphony Orchestra. It was reported in Private Eye and the Spectator; Private Eye's report doesn't seem to be online, and I really don't want to link the Spectator, a right-wing cesspit. Here's a forum thread which quotes the Private Eye report.
Gardiner is due to conduct Les Troyens again at the BBC Proms on 3 September. As of now, both his name and that of William Thomas, the singer he allegedly struck, are still on the programme.
A spokesman for the BBC has said: “We take allegations about inappropriate behaviour seriously, and are currently establishing the facts about the incident.”
Will there be consequences for the man who conducted the pre-Coronation concert, and is apparently good friends with the King?
OperaWire
Daily Telegraph [icky right-wing paper, paywalled]
Mirror of the Telegraph article at Microsoft News
This isn't Gardiner's first report of violence; in 2014 he was reported to have struck a trumpet player during a rehearsal with the London Symphony Orchestra. It was reported in Private Eye and the Spectator; Private Eye's report doesn't seem to be online, and I really don't want to link the Spectator, a right-wing cesspit. Here's a forum thread which quotes the Private Eye report.
Gardiner is due to conduct Les Troyens again at the BBC Proms on 3 September. As of now, both his name and that of William Thomas, the singer he allegedly struck, are still on the programme.
A spokesman for the BBC has said: “We take allegations about inappropriate behaviour seriously, and are currently establishing the facts about the incident.”
Will there be consequences for the man who conducted the pre-Coronation concert, and is apparently good friends with the King?
Wow! I only know Gardiner because his is the fastest (and therefore best!) recording of Bach's St. Matthew Passion. I am sorry to hear that he is an asshole.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:22 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:22 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Gardiner is more than an asshole; the asshole line is way in the rear-view mirror of assault.
Just like any criminal, charges should be brought, and arrest, and same as would happen if a person struck anyone on the street, or in a market.
His job? Nope. Any awards stripped. A common criminal. Um, nope -- a violent criminal.
posted by dancestoblue at 4:37 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
Just like any criminal, charges should be brought, and arrest, and same as would happen if a person struck anyone on the street, or in a market.
His job? Nope. Any awards stripped. A common criminal. Um, nope -- a violent criminal.
posted by dancestoblue at 4:37 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
If Kathleen Battle can be fired from opera houses for her absurd diva behavior, then so can this guy, who sounds actually a lot worse.
posted by dnash at 5:01 PM on August 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by dnash at 5:01 PM on August 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
Jesus I am sick of old men getting away with murder and never seeing any consequences. Why was he not arrested for assault?? I mean, I know why, but seriously WHY?
posted by evilcupcakes at 5:02 PM on August 23, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by evilcupcakes at 5:02 PM on August 23, 2023 [18 favorites]
Tár, for real.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:12 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 5:12 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
Monsters like this, said to be excused for their skill, potentially displace more skillful non-monsters. They succeed because of their monstrosity, not despite it, because we live in a world of monsters that protect their own.
posted by krisjohn at 5:21 PM on August 23, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by krisjohn at 5:21 PM on August 23, 2023 [12 favorites]
New York Times article (I lack the skills to find or make an archive.org version, apologies!)
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:33 PM on August 23, 2023
"Gardiner and the ensembles still have four more planned stops on the tour, including at the Salzburg Festival in Austria, the Opéra Royal in Versailles, the Berliner Festspiele in Germany and the Proms, the BBC’s classical music festival, in England.[Les Troyens is so huge that it's basically two operas, and is usually performed over two days.]
[...]Gardiner was replaced at the Festival Berlioz on Wednesday by Dinis Sousa, an associate conductor of the Monteverdi Choir, for a performance of the final acts of “Les Troyens.”
Bruno Messina, the general and artistic director of the Festival Berlioz, said in a statement that he was “devastated by the incident,” which he did not describe or give details of, but that he felt it was important that Wednesday’s show go on.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:33 PM on August 23, 2023
The NYT writes: "Thomas, a rising bass from England"
Isn't he, in fact, Welsh?
posted by doctornemo at 5:38 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Isn't he, in fact, Welsh?
posted by doctornemo at 5:38 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Quite the contrast from yesterday's thread about Yo-Yo Ma. I can only hope we're reaching a tipping point against tolerating this sort of behavior because "genius". You don't gotta be an abusive asshole to be a genius!
posted by drewbage1847 at 6:08 PM on August 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 6:08 PM on August 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
Isn't he, in fact, Welsh?
A quick Google search seems to indicate that he was born in England.
posted by explosion at 7:01 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
A quick Google search seems to indicate that he was born in England.
posted by explosion at 7:01 PM on August 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
As a conductor myself, I have long admired Gardiner's work. His recordings of the Beethoven and Brahms symphonies, for instance, are absolutely among the best I've ever encountered, and as a young musician his interpretations--and the really fantastic ensembles he put together--knocked the dust off of old music for me, and helped teach me to strive to hear all music in its native context (stylistically, expressively) as much as possible.
But then I finally saw some rehearsal footage of him working, and it was awful. Short-tempered, demanding and exacting while being hilariously unclear physically, and that glowering, non-eye-contact, downward slump in his posture that disdainfully said 'I may have to tolerate you all to make this music, but if I could do this without you I really would prefer to.' And then I started to hear the stories. Another awful, abusive, narcissist conductor to add to the pile, ugh. (If I ever hear any bad stories about Simon Rattle I will be truly despondent. He's a terrific person as far as everything I've ever heard, and his work is brilliant too, technically and expressively. I should note that my two primary mentors were rare gems in the conducting world, both retired now, gentle and nurturing souls who lead ensembles of musicians because they genuinely find collaboration joyful, and love to share music with the world. Many, many conductors, however, are not that.)
John Gardiner's privilege in all this stems partly from his personal musical roots (and of course being from multi-generational wealth): his great-uncle was Henry Balfour Gardiner, a composer of some note in his own right, but most influential for his generous support of other significant contemporaries; for instance, (HB) Gardiner was on holiday with his friends and fellow composers Arnold Bax and Gustav Holst in 1913 when a conversation about astrology sparked interest in Holst that led to the idea for his piece The Planets. Holst earned his living as a school teacher, so could only compose on weekends and summers, which meant it took until 1917 or so for him to complete the piece. But then he had this huge piece (meaning: expensive to perform) and no resources or connections to get it programmed, so Gardiner paid for the first performances so that the piece could be realized. And it was the piece that finally, in his 40s, launched Holst's professional career as a composer.
But holy shit, hitting people and spitting on them? Fuck that guy.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:27 PM on August 23, 2023 [39 favorites]
But then I finally saw some rehearsal footage of him working, and it was awful. Short-tempered, demanding and exacting while being hilariously unclear physically, and that glowering, non-eye-contact, downward slump in his posture that disdainfully said 'I may have to tolerate you all to make this music, but if I could do this without you I really would prefer to.' And then I started to hear the stories. Another awful, abusive, narcissist conductor to add to the pile, ugh. (If I ever hear any bad stories about Simon Rattle I will be truly despondent. He's a terrific person as far as everything I've ever heard, and his work is brilliant too, technically and expressively. I should note that my two primary mentors were rare gems in the conducting world, both retired now, gentle and nurturing souls who lead ensembles of musicians because they genuinely find collaboration joyful, and love to share music with the world. Many, many conductors, however, are not that.)
John Gardiner's privilege in all this stems partly from his personal musical roots (and of course being from multi-generational wealth): his great-uncle was Henry Balfour Gardiner, a composer of some note in his own right, but most influential for his generous support of other significant contemporaries; for instance, (HB) Gardiner was on holiday with his friends and fellow composers Arnold Bax and Gustav Holst in 1913 when a conversation about astrology sparked interest in Holst that led to the idea for his piece The Planets. Holst earned his living as a school teacher, so could only compose on weekends and summers, which meant it took until 1917 or so for him to complete the piece. But then he had this huge piece (meaning: expensive to perform) and no resources or connections to get it programmed, so Gardiner paid for the first performances so that the piece could be realized. And it was the piece that finally, in his 40s, launched Holst's professional career as a composer.
But holy shit, hitting people and spitting on them? Fuck that guy.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:27 PM on August 23, 2023 [39 favorites]
In high school, I sang in a choir-of-choirs for a concert conducted by Lukas Foss.
And Lukas Foss was baaaaaaaaaaaaaad at conducting choirs. Just super-basic stuff like "there's only so loud human beings can sing" (the sections were imbalanced such that we didn't have nearly enough tenors) and "not all singers have perfect pitch; the conductor can't pick up from just anywhere without asking the rehearsal pianist to give people their starting note." He snarled, he yelled, he insulted. A lot of us (self included) left the first rehearsal in tears.
(Luckily, he turned over the next rehearsals to the conductor of one of the other choirs, who knew what he was doing and was kind to boot. That guy actually got us into tolerable shape quickly. All blessings on his head, wherever he is.)
But for fuck's sake, Foss did not lay hands on anyone. Fuck Gardiner. I hope he never works again.
posted by humbug at 8:03 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
And Lukas Foss was baaaaaaaaaaaaaad at conducting choirs. Just super-basic stuff like "there's only so loud human beings can sing" (the sections were imbalanced such that we didn't have nearly enough tenors) and "not all singers have perfect pitch; the conductor can't pick up from just anywhere without asking the rehearsal pianist to give people their starting note." He snarled, he yelled, he insulted. A lot of us (self included) left the first rehearsal in tears.
(Luckily, he turned over the next rehearsals to the conductor of one of the other choirs, who knew what he was doing and was kind to boot. That guy actually got us into tolerable shape quickly. All blessings on his head, wherever he is.)
But for fuck's sake, Foss did not lay hands on anyone. Fuck Gardiner. I hope he never works again.
posted by humbug at 8:03 PM on August 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
I had a High School Choir teacher in 1985 who acted like this (including actual assault) and wasn't fired.
Guess when I stopped singing in choirs.
I'm so sick of hearing about "irreplaceable" old terrible white men. Replace them all. We'll find other people with talent...
posted by mmoncur at 8:13 PM on August 23, 2023 [15 favorites]
Guess when I stopped singing in choirs.
I'm so sick of hearing about "irreplaceable" old terrible white men. Replace them all. We'll find other people with talent...
posted by mmoncur at 8:13 PM on August 23, 2023 [15 favorites]
Stick a fork in him.
If he doesn't get the message, da capo.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:57 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
If he doesn't get the message, da capo.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:57 PM on August 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
This sent me back to Gardiner's book on Bach, Music in the Castle of Heaven, and his discussion of Bach's famously short temper (which on one occasion led him to pull the wig off an unfortunate organist and throw it at his head). Gardiner discusses this at some length and suggests that Bach believed his anger was justified, even necessary, in the service of his art and vocation. In the light of what we now know about Gardiner's temper tantrums, this reads like a self-serving excuse for his own unprofessional behaviour.
posted by verstegan at 10:11 PM on August 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by verstegan at 10:11 PM on August 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
verstegan: I remember that passage clearly as he did seem to belabor the point. I went back to my copy and put an excerpt here for others. The theme actually continues even after this passage and appears to be a major element of the book.
Rarely is Bach called 'Beethovenian' in his passion and it appears as if Gardiner was projecting his own personality back onto one of his idols.
Rarely is Bach called 'Beethovenian' in his passion and it appears as if Gardiner was projecting his own personality back onto one of his idols.
All that we have managed to glean so far from Bach’s troubled cantorate suggests a constant struggle between the desire to do his job conscientiously and to the utmost of his abilities, on the one hand (to the glory of God and the betterment of his neighbour, as he would have put it), and, on the other hand, the bother of having to put up with ‘almost continual vexation, envy and persecution’ (as he described it in a letter to a friend)posted by vacapinta at 3:12 AM on August 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
...
Bach was a natural dissident — almost a proto-Beethovenian rebel avant la lettre. One thinks of Beethoven composing ‘between tears and mourning’ (Op. 69) or Berlioz’s self-description: ‘I have found only one way of completely satisfying this immense appetite for emotion, and that’s music ... I live only for music, it’s the only thing that carries me over this abyss of miseries of every kind.’
In his copy of Calov’s commentary we encounter a passage (which Bach underlined and flagged up with a marginal ‘NB’) in which Luther makes a distinction between illicit shows of anger and those that are justifiable: ‘Of course, as we have said, anger is sometimes necessary and proper, but be sure that you use it correctly. You are commanded to get angry not on your own behalf, but on behalf of your office and of God; you must not confuse the two, your person and your office. As far as your person is concerned, you must not get angry with anyone regardless of the injury he may have done you. But where your Office requires it, there you must get angry, even though no injury has been done to you personally ... But if your brother has done something against you and angered you, and then begs your pardon, your anger too should disappear. Where does the secret spite come from which you continue to keep in your heart?’ In other words, if you are attacked it is not for you to retaliate if it is personal; but if the attack is on your vocation or profession you are duty-bound to defend yourself or get someone to do it for you — exactly what Bach did by hiring Magister Birnbaum to represent him in the Scheibe dispute (see Chapter 7, this page). An account by one of his earliest biographers, Carl Ludwig Hilgenfeldt (with connections going back to C. P. E. Bach), confirms this vital distinction:Peaceful, quiet, and even-tempered though Bach was whenever he encountered unpleasantness at the hands of third persons so long as it concerned only his own personality, he was however quite another man when, no matter in what form, anyone slighted art, which was sacred to him. In such cases it doubtless happened at times that he donned his armour and gave expression to his wrath in the strongest ways. The organist of St Thomas’s, who was in general a worthy artist, once so enraged him by a mistake on the organ during the rehearsal of a cantata that he tore the wig from his head and, with the thundering exclamation, ‘You should have been a cobbler!’ threw it at the organist’s head.
He's not the only elderly conductor who has assaulted musicians/singers etc. I read once, and I don't remember if it was an article or what, but Fritz Reiner once broke a clarinet by hitting the clarinetist with it, then slapping them.
Riccardo Muti was also a bad tempered dick head.
posted by james33 at 4:22 AM on August 24, 2023
Riccardo Muti was also a bad tempered dick head.
posted by james33 at 4:22 AM on August 24, 2023
Muti’s workers at La Scala were at least able to vote him out in ‘05. Gardiner’s Monteverdians hold no such power. They can leave (as many have), but he’s a big employer in the field and musicians often can’t afford to lose a source of employment.
Meanwhile: there’s a little more detail about the punching incident in The Times’s article this morning (link to tweet with screenshot as the Times is strongly paywalled)
And the BBC is reporting that Gardiner has now withdrawn from the upcoming Proms concert, which will be conducted by his associate Dinis Sousa.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:40 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile: there’s a little more detail about the punching incident in The Times’s article this morning (link to tweet with screenshot as the Times is strongly paywalled)
And the BBC is reporting that Gardiner has now withdrawn from the upcoming Proms concert, which will be conducted by his associate Dinis Sousa.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:40 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
... Fritz Reiner once broke a clarinet by hitting the clarinetist with it, then slapping them.
Good God, that was expensive
posted by Countess Elena at 6:52 AM on August 24, 2023
Good God, that was expensive
posted by Countess Elena at 6:52 AM on August 24, 2023
Thank you, explosion.
posted by doctornemo at 6:57 AM on August 24, 2023
posted by doctornemo at 6:57 AM on August 24, 2023
I can't believe we're talking about whether he should or will lose his job, not what charges he will be facing. It's assault.
posted by Dysk at 7:57 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 7:57 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
(And that is no shade on this thread or the people in it, but the systems that enable and perpetuate this kind of bullshit from men like Gardiner.)
posted by Dysk at 7:58 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 7:58 AM on August 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's mildly annoying when someone is so famous you can't email them directly to tell them how you feel about their behaviour and character.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:43 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:43 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Now we see the violins inherent in the system.
posted by zippy at 10:29 AM on August 24, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by zippy at 10:29 AM on August 24, 2023 [17 favorites]
"I'm not abusive, just passionate -- in fact, my so-called abusive behavior is PROOF of how passionate and I am therefore obligated by my devotion to The Art to continue that behavior". Looking from mostly the outside, this vicious-circle line of thinking seems to be so prevalent in the arts. And not just the professional arts -- I've seen it in software development and Burning Man builds, for instance. I wonder how many truly talented and wonderful people are driven away by it -- probably far more than we realize
posted by treepour at 10:30 AM on August 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by treepour at 10:30 AM on August 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
Hit back more.
posted by mattgriffin at 10:52 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mattgriffin at 10:52 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Askonas Holt, the (quite high-powered) agency which represents William Thomas, issued a statement saying the singer himself will not be making a statement at this time, and that "all musicians deserve the right to practise their art in an environment free from abuse or physical harm."
Gardiner's now issued an apology.
Since it was assault in the workplace with multiple witnesses, there are murmurs about the justice of Gardiner's being allowed to apologise and 'decide to withdraw' from the handful of concerts remaining on the tour rather than face legal or professional consequences.
posted by Pallas Athena at 11:33 AM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Gardiner's now issued an apology.
Since it was assault in the workplace with multiple witnesses, there are murmurs about the justice of Gardiner's being allowed to apologise and 'decide to withdraw' from the handful of concerts remaining on the tour rather than face legal or professional consequences.
posted by Pallas Athena at 11:33 AM on August 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Even if this guy were the best conductor in the world, we can live just fine with the 2nd best taking the top spot. Flush this pos and move on.
posted by fncll at 2:00 PM on August 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by fncll at 2:00 PM on August 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
Dinis Sousa is now replacing JEG for the rest of the tour.
posted by lokta at 6:00 AM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by lokta at 6:00 AM on August 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
How terrible. I love the ORR recordings but I didn't know much about this guy. It's awful to know that music I've enjoyed so much came from such an abusive situation. I will never be able to listen to them the same way again.
For anyone who knows more about the scene than I do, can you recommend alternatives? Especially for Beethoven's 5th and 7th and Faure's requiem. Those have been two of my favourite recordings of all time up to now.
I hope the police step in and also that the people who have been abused and harmed by him are able to find comfort and hopefully begin to heal.
posted by mosessis at 9:20 PM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
For anyone who knows more about the scene than I do, can you recommend alternatives? Especially for Beethoven's 5th and 7th and Faure's requiem. Those have been two of my favourite recordings of all time up to now.
I hope the police step in and also that the people who have been abused and harmed by him are able to find comfort and hopefully begin to heal.
posted by mosessis at 9:20 PM on August 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
"John Eliot Gardiner is still going to be allowed to conduct @bbcproms? Are you joking?"
From the replies to the above:
"He literally spat in my face during Carmen in front of the cast when angry"
and:
"I wrote the libretto for an opera he conducted the 1st perf of many moons ago. I never met such a rude, unpleasant, misogynistic man before or in the 40 years since"
"That man is able to behave in a totally unacceptable way to his musicians because he is enabled by a system that prioritises market worth and artistic reputation over basic standards of dignity, respect and decency."
posted by Pallas Athena at 3:36 PM on August 23, 2023 [9 favorites]