I was a US nuclear missile operator. I’m grateful for “Oppenheimer.”
August 28, 2023 10:45 AM Subscribe
How pop culture (specifically movies) have helped shape our views on nuclear weapons. The questions at the center of “Oppenheimer” don’t feel theoretical to me. From 2012 to 2017, I worked on nearly 300 nuclear silo alerts
In the wake of the the widespread success and acclaim of the film Oppenheimer, a writer-director shares his experience as a 23-year-old Air Force nuclear operator.
From 2012 to 2017 I worked as a nuclear missile operator in the US air force. During that time, I worked nearly 300 “alerts”, or shifts in underground launch control centers, where I oversaw maintenance, security and launch operations for 10 nuclear-tipped intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs).
The problem is that, while a good day in nuclear missile operations is a quiet one, the quiet days don’t lead to a reduction in the number of these weapons. That’s why we need engaging stories about nuclear weapons in our movie theaters. We need journalism that comprehensively unpacks this issue.
Having just seen the film myself, I absolutely agree that we need a more robust conversation around nuclear weapons. After all, it wasn’t that long ago that a US President actually thought a nuclear disaster film validated his robust nuclear policy.
In the wake of the the widespread success and acclaim of the film Oppenheimer, a writer-director shares his experience as a 23-year-old Air Force nuclear operator.
From 2012 to 2017 I worked as a nuclear missile operator in the US air force. During that time, I worked nearly 300 “alerts”, or shifts in underground launch control centers, where I oversaw maintenance, security and launch operations for 10 nuclear-tipped intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs).
The problem is that, while a good day in nuclear missile operations is a quiet one, the quiet days don’t lead to a reduction in the number of these weapons. That’s why we need engaging stories about nuclear weapons in our movie theaters. We need journalism that comprehensively unpacks this issue.
Having just seen the film myself, I absolutely agree that we need a more robust conversation around nuclear weapons. After all, it wasn’t that long ago that a US President actually thought a nuclear disaster film validated his robust nuclear policy.
I've said it before, I'll say it again - we need some kind of rerelease of the 1980s film Threads and make it a free public event.
I'm not the first to have this kind of thought. Back when the BBC-produced War Game came out (it was supposed to be a BBC thing, but the BBC got cold feet and it was released in theaters instead), Roger Ebert was just starting out his career and had to review it. He said that "They should string up bedsheets between the trees and show 'The War Game' in every public park. "
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:59 AM on August 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
I'm not the first to have this kind of thought. Back when the BBC-produced War Game came out (it was supposed to be a BBC thing, but the BBC got cold feet and it was released in theaters instead), Roger Ebert was just starting out his career and had to review it. He said that "They should string up bedsheets between the trees and show 'The War Game' in every public park. "
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:59 AM on August 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
I never saw "Threads", but I do remember going to the Student Center to group watch "The Day After". Having grown up in KC, and spending a semester at KU, Lawrence being the focal point was very unsettling. And "Threads" is supposedly even more horrible and grueling, so I will have to pass on that one.
And to the actual link topic. What a stressful, horrible job that would be. But, seriously, thank you for your service.
posted by Windopaene at 12:03 PM on August 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
And to the actual link topic. What a stressful, horrible job that would be. But, seriously, thank you for your service.
posted by Windopaene at 12:03 PM on August 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I listened to the audiobook of "Command and Control" and, while I loved it, the perfectly steady, even tone of the narrator's voice just went on and on exactly like the impending threat of nuclear annihilation and I had to stop from time to time.
Damn good book, though.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:10 PM on August 28, 2023
Damn good book, though.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:10 PM on August 28, 2023
"Command and Control" is a lot more chilling than "Threads" or "The Day After" could ever be, because it highlights how amazingly lucky we have been over the last 75 years or so not to have set off an atomic blast through simple accidents or normal human stupidity, never mind actual war.
posted by briank at 12:21 PM on August 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by briank at 12:21 PM on August 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yeah, Nthing Command and Control. It's amazing how much dumbfuckery has happened around nukes over the years.
I remember The Day After from when I was a kid. I keep thinking I should (re)watch it, along with Threads, but I can't bring myself to it.
posted by slogger at 12:27 PM on August 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I remember The Day After from when I was a kid. I keep thinking I should (re)watch it, along with Threads, but I can't bring myself to it.
posted by slogger at 12:27 PM on August 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
(In the pantheon of Nonfiction White Men, I would put Eric Schlosser several rungs above Michael Lewis.)
posted by box at 1:09 PM on August 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by box at 1:09 PM on August 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
And to the actual link topic. What a stressful, horrible job that would be. But, seriously, thank you for your service.
With all due respect to you, Windopaene, seriously, fuck that guy, actually. We should treat everyone in the US and around the world who is involved in the design, production, deployment, or possible use of nuclear weapons as pariahs. The best any of the them can say is they think they're providing deterrent for the other guy, but if all those guys were gone we wouldn't need any nuclear deterrence. They should all have the curse of Cain without the mark to protect them.
posted by Reverend John at 1:30 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
With all due respect to you, Windopaene, seriously, fuck that guy, actually. We should treat everyone in the US and around the world who is involved in the design, production, deployment, or possible use of nuclear weapons as pariahs. The best any of the them can say is they think they're providing deterrent for the other guy, but if all those guys were gone we wouldn't need any nuclear deterrence. They should all have the curse of Cain without the mark to protect them.
posted by Reverend John at 1:30 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
We should treat everyone in the US and around the world who is involved in the design, production, deployment, or possible use of nuclear weapons as pariahs.
....er.....
So, in 1967, just after they got married, my father took a job with Electric Boat in Groton; he was fresh out an electrics engineering design degree, and doing work with a company that had military ties also meant he was protected from the draft (something devoutly to be wished in those days). He spent the next two or three years there, and as part of his employment, was ordered to do some work on a government contract involving nukes. I don't know how much of a hand he had in things, but it was at least enough that there are still some things he is not allowed to tell anyone that he knows. My parents are the only left-leaning members of that generation in my family, and I am assuming this is 100% due to the things my father having learned at the time being enough to freak them both completely the fuck out and swear to side with a less combative political party. Once I was born, I was more of a protection from the draft and my father soon took alternate work with a small manufacturing firm closer to home instead.
...Consider this my formal application to absolve my father from "pariah" status, or at the very least, to illustrate that this is a situation in which a bit more nuance might need to be called for.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:52 PM on August 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
....er.....
So, in 1967, just after they got married, my father took a job with Electric Boat in Groton; he was fresh out an electrics engineering design degree, and doing work with a company that had military ties also meant he was protected from the draft (something devoutly to be wished in those days). He spent the next two or three years there, and as part of his employment, was ordered to do some work on a government contract involving nukes. I don't know how much of a hand he had in things, but it was at least enough that there are still some things he is not allowed to tell anyone that he knows. My parents are the only left-leaning members of that generation in my family, and I am assuming this is 100% due to the things my father having learned at the time being enough to freak them both completely the fuck out and swear to side with a less combative political party. Once I was born, I was more of a protection from the draft and my father soon took alternate work with a small manufacturing firm closer to home instead.
...Consider this my formal application to absolve my father from "pariah" status, or at the very least, to illustrate that this is a situation in which a bit more nuance might need to be called for.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:52 PM on August 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
Let's not discuss nuclear weapons without noting all the innocent people impacted by them. In this case, over 200,000 Japanese civilians died; southern New Mexicans living near the Trinity test site were forcibly displaced and/or exposed to radiation for generations (link).
posted by wicked_sassy at 1:53 PM on August 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by wicked_sassy at 1:53 PM on August 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
1989 saw Three Manhattan project films in production, perhaps more then any other year.
Day One, Fat man and Little Boy and Night Breaker.
Threads is highly recommend.
had a history teacher whose father worked on various programs including ANP and the Chrysler TV-8. interestingly enough the teacher's father decided maybe work on other projects when they came up with the Convair NB-36H.
something something nuclear reactors being installed on jet planes.
posted by clavdivs at 2:35 PM on August 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Day One, Fat man and Little Boy and Night Breaker.
Threads is highly recommend.
had a history teacher whose father worked on various programs including ANP and the Chrysler TV-8. interestingly enough the teacher's father decided maybe work on other projects when they came up with the Convair NB-36H.
something something nuclear reactors being installed on jet planes.
posted by clavdivs at 2:35 PM on August 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I guess they never made a Mandarin translation of any of these books or films. (see China's race to match or surpass both USA and Russian nuclear arsenals in the next 10 years)
posted by some loser at 3:10 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by some loser at 3:10 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just started listening to Command & Control and it really reminds me how terrifyingly crazy it is that so much of the work in the military falls to the hands of <25 year olds (as is always the case about the war machine)
And anyone else remember that there was a whole exploratory project with operating prototypes of nuclear powered bombers? Madness. Utterly
posted by drewbage1847 at 3:12 PM on August 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
And anyone else remember that there was a whole exploratory project with operating prototypes of nuclear powered bombers? Madness. Utterly
posted by drewbage1847 at 3:12 PM on August 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
With all due respect to you, Windopaene, seriously, fuck that guy, actually. We should treat everyone in the US and around the world who is involved in the design, production, deployment, or possible use of nuclear weapons as pariahs.
There are of course a variety of permutations on this conversation that can be had about people joining or working for the military in general but it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to single out people who get assigned to that particular duty. As far as I’ve heard it’s already a job most people don’t really want, which is probably a contributor to sloppy handling of weapon systems and protocols, which is not something anybody wants.
posted by atoxyl at 5:50 PM on August 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
There are of course a variety of permutations on this conversation that can be had about people joining or working for the military in general but it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to single out people who get assigned to that particular duty. As far as I’ve heard it’s already a job most people don’t really want, which is probably a contributor to sloppy handling of weapon systems and protocols, which is not something anybody wants.
posted by atoxyl at 5:50 PM on August 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I clearly remember watching "Threads" back in the 80s, and the visceral fear of a nuclear war that I felt even before watching the film. It suddenly hit me one day: my world appeared safe and stable, but it could all disappear in minutes if things went wrong, which they so very easily could.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 5:59 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 5:59 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
All of the recent bluster and/or hype and/or praise for the Oppenheimer flick is to be expected, and essays such as this in response.
But what the author doesn't seem to realize (or admit) is that there is literally no way this genie can be put back in the bottle. No way. There is no Superman IV: Quest For Peace who is going to gather up all nuclear weapons and hurl them into space.
I'm not criticizing him (in fact, I commend and appreciate his military service) or others - it's natural to want a world free of the threat of nuclear war, imagine world peace, etc.
But...reality.
posted by davidmsc at 6:09 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
But what the author doesn't seem to realize (or admit) is that there is literally no way this genie can be put back in the bottle. No way. There is no Superman IV: Quest For Peace who is going to gather up all nuclear weapons and hurl them into space.
I'm not criticizing him (in fact, I commend and appreciate his military service) or others - it's natural to want a world free of the threat of nuclear war, imagine world peace, etc.
But...reality.
posted by davidmsc at 6:09 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Other itop notch books on the topic: Restricted Data by Dr. Alex Wellerstein = history of nuclear secrecy. The Dead Hand by David Hoffman = history of WMD with a focus on the cleanup of the former USSR.
Possibly the most interesting in my collection is Atom Bombs: The Top Secret Inside Story of Little Boy and Fat Man by John Coster Mullin, a truck driver who spent his spare time building a scale model of the Little Boy weapon.
posted by ensign_ricky at 7:42 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Possibly the most interesting in my collection is Atom Bombs: The Top Secret Inside Story of Little Boy and Fat Man by John Coster Mullin, a truck driver who spent his spare time building a scale model of the Little Boy weapon.
posted by ensign_ricky at 7:42 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
...Consider this my formal application to absolve my father from "pariah" status, or at the very least, to illustrate that this is a situation in which a bit more nuance might need to be called for.
To be fair, tenses: it doesn't sound like your dad is involved in nuclear weapon design or anything. Was, maybe. But the call was for people who are involved to be pariahs. I think it would be fair to your dad to treat him that way if he stuck with the nuclear weapons job and is in fact still involved.
posted by Dysk at 10:41 PM on August 28, 2023
To be fair, tenses: it doesn't sound like your dad is involved in nuclear weapon design or anything. Was, maybe. But the call was for people who are involved to be pariahs. I think it would be fair to your dad to treat him that way if he stuck with the nuclear weapons job and is in fact still involved.
posted by Dysk at 10:41 PM on August 28, 2023
For my money the most chilling depiction of a nuclear exchange (spoiler: Birmingham, then Minsk) is in Sir John Hackett's The Third World War, a very odd quasi-technothriller set in the then-near future 1985, that happened to be written by a retired senior British general and NATO leader—someone who had been involved in choices developing, and deploying the weapons, war planning with them, and who would have been directly responsible for using them in a NATO-Warsaw Pact conflict. He was no abolitionist, and the book, which is an argument for [conventional] rearmament and assertive NATO policy, shows it. As such the description of the effects of the bomb, which are explicit, are harrowing. If anyone deserved pariah status it would be senior leaders like Hackett (and as he would be the first to point out, his counterparts on the Soviet side), yet there you can read in his own words, he faced up to the reality of the weapons and refused to delude himself.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:05 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:05 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
“But the call was for people who are involved to be pariahs.”
I actually wouldn't be able to give an accurate count of family, friends, and acquaintances who've worked at Sandia or Los Alamos National Laboratories. More than a dozen but less than two dozen, I guess.
It's a lot easier to be glib about this if you think of the people involved as distant and strange. They're not to me. (And I consider Hiroshima and Nagasaki to be war crimes, by the way.)
There was a thread here in the last two months wherein someone told a story of their grandfather working at LANL during WWII, which was followed a bit down the thread by another commenter wishing everyone involved to burn in hell forever.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:39 PM on August 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I actually wouldn't be able to give an accurate count of family, friends, and acquaintances who've worked at Sandia or Los Alamos National Laboratories. More than a dozen but less than two dozen, I guess.
It's a lot easier to be glib about this if you think of the people involved as distant and strange. They're not to me. (And I consider Hiroshima and Nagasaki to be war crimes, by the way.)
There was a thread here in the last two months wherein someone told a story of their grandfather working at LANL during WWII, which was followed a bit down the thread by another commenter wishing everyone involved to burn in hell forever.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:39 PM on August 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have family who were in the military. Quite a few. I absolutely treated them like pariahs when they were. Now that they're not, I don't.
posted by Dysk at 11:41 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 11:41 PM on August 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
...and that wasn't even nuclear weapons! They stood to be (partly) responsible for murder, not genocide.
posted by Dysk at 11:42 PM on August 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 11:42 PM on August 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
To be fair, tenses: it doesn't sound like your dad is involved in nuclear weapon design or anything. Was, maybe. But the call was for people who are involved to be pariahs. I think it would be fair to your dad to treat him that way if he stuck with the nuclear weapons job and is in fact still involved.
I think it would be more fair to just plain not treat anyone as a pariah based simply on a workplace affiliation and ignoring all context and/or nuance, but you do you.
It's like that one scene from Oppenheimer where Oppenheimer visits President Truman to discuss the bomb, and Oppenheimer blurts out that he feels like he has blood on his hands now for having designed the bomb. Truman just says that the Japanese don't really care who designed the bomb - what they care about is who used the bomb. There definitely are people worthy of scorn in the military complex - but far more of them are either ignorant of what they were getting into, or have maybe told themselves they're trying to affect change from the inside, or they're trying to keep their heads down and get training for a skill and then get out because they couldn't afford a university or trade school. And well, calling someone a pariah when they may just be ignorant, quixotic, or broke, doesn't sit right with me.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:39 AM on August 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think it would be more fair to just plain not treat anyone as a pariah based simply on a workplace affiliation and ignoring all context and/or nuance, but you do you.
It's like that one scene from Oppenheimer where Oppenheimer visits President Truman to discuss the bomb, and Oppenheimer blurts out that he feels like he has blood on his hands now for having designed the bomb. Truman just says that the Japanese don't really care who designed the bomb - what they care about is who used the bomb. There definitely are people worthy of scorn in the military complex - but far more of them are either ignorant of what they were getting into, or have maybe told themselves they're trying to affect change from the inside, or they're trying to keep their heads down and get training for a skill and then get out because they couldn't afford a university or trade school. And well, calling someone a pariah when they may just be ignorant, quixotic, or broke, doesn't sit right with me.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:39 AM on August 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
A bunch of us manage to be ignorant and broke without participating in the military.
posted by Dysk at 7:03 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 7:03 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have family who were in the military. Quite a few. I absolutely treated them like pariahs when they were. Now that they're not, I don't.
If you have family who were in the military, then no doubt you are aware that a lot of people join the military because it's the only option to get a free college education, learn some skills, maybe get some structure, and often escape poor small towns that have no other real job options.
I'm a US federal employee (no doubt you think I'm the scum of the earth as well) so I work with a lot of vets. The vast majority are not the fanatics you are picturing, they are kids who are putting in a few years to get that GI Bill. Because unfortunately American society has decided you're not worthy of that kind of assistance unless you join the military.
Maybe instead of blaming the kid from Iowa who just wants out of his crappy small town, you should blame the politicians, or the think tanks, or the Beltway Bandits who are getting fat off DoD contracts. Plenty of folks to blame without taking it out on individual service members.
posted by photo guy at 8:37 AM on August 29, 2023
If you have family who were in the military, then no doubt you are aware that a lot of people join the military because it's the only option to get a free college education, learn some skills, maybe get some structure, and often escape poor small towns that have no other real job options.
I'm a US federal employee (no doubt you think I'm the scum of the earth as well) so I work with a lot of vets. The vast majority are not the fanatics you are picturing, they are kids who are putting in a few years to get that GI Bill. Because unfortunately American society has decided you're not worthy of that kind of assistance unless you join the military.
Maybe instead of blaming the kid from Iowa who just wants out of his crappy small town, you should blame the politicians, or the think tanks, or the Beltway Bandits who are getting fat off DoD contracts. Plenty of folks to blame without taking it out on individual service members.
posted by photo guy at 8:37 AM on August 29, 2023
If you have family who were in the military, then no doubt you are aware that a lot of people join the military because it's the only option to get a free college education, learn some skills, maybe get some structure, and often escape poor small towns that have no other real job options.
a) I'm not American
b) I also have lots of family who didn't get an education and/or didn't/don't have prospects. Better to be poor than a cog in the military machine
c) I personally am very poor, with no earnings potential at all. I'm not full of sympathy for people who joined an organisation dedicated to killing in order to avoid being like me. Better to be poor than a big in the military machine
d) Being a government employee is in no way equivalent to being in the military (unless you mean you're specifically in immigration enforcement or something) and it is a bizarre non-sequitur to equate the two
I'm against stepping on the others in your bucket to try and get ahead for yourself. An even slightly global perspective recognises that joining a military (with possible exceptions for countries under current invasion/occupation) is doing exactly that - crushing other crabs under your feet to try and get yourself out.
posted by Dysk at 9:04 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
a) I'm not American
b) I also have lots of family who didn't get an education and/or didn't/don't have prospects. Better to be poor than a cog in the military machine
c) I personally am very poor, with no earnings potential at all. I'm not full of sympathy for people who joined an organisation dedicated to killing in order to avoid being like me. Better to be poor than a big in the military machine
d) Being a government employee is in no way equivalent to being in the military (unless you mean you're specifically in immigration enforcement or something) and it is a bizarre non-sequitur to equate the two
I'm against stepping on the others in your bucket to try and get ahead for yourself. An even slightly global perspective recognises that joining a military (with possible exceptions for countries under current invasion/occupation) is doing exactly that - crushing other crabs under your feet to try and get yourself out.
posted by Dysk at 9:04 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Like, we're collectively happy to say ACAB, but a lot of those guys are just people doing their jobs too. They probably have families to feed! And yet, we recognise that sometimes putting yourself first above other considerations is immoral.
Call it ASAB (the S being for solidier) if you like.
posted by Dysk at 9:08 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Call it ASAB (the S being for solidier) if you like.
posted by Dysk at 9:08 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
This seems like an oddly binary, very black-and-white way of viewing the world. No offense but that's how you turn people off to your cause. Also a friendly reminder that the UK might be busy tearing their social programs and NHS apart, but it's still a hell of a lot more than we have in the US.
At any rate, this is quickly turning into a weird derail so I'm going to bow out now.
posted by photo guy at 9:20 AM on August 29, 2023
At any rate, this is quickly turning into a weird derail so I'm going to bow out now.
posted by photo guy at 9:20 AM on August 29, 2023
I didn't grow up in the UK, and I have friends around the world, quite a few of them in places with no more formal social safety net than the US (if not less).
posted by Dysk at 9:23 AM on August 29, 2023
posted by Dysk at 9:23 AM on August 29, 2023
I guess Dysk is far more saintly than anyone else around them and lives in a much simpler and more straightforward universe. But I reckon that people in Ukraine are glad they have the military they have, and not the military that Iceland or Costa Rica have. There are a spectrum of approaches here. And it's rather glib to carve out your own special list of government functions as bad while attacking someone else for making the same argument. "Or something" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.
I, personally, WANT to have the same military that Iceland or Costa Rica have. I try to live my life to make that possible. But I'm also realistic about what that likely means given 10,000 years of human history, and the likelihood of achieving it. I want to increase the ability of inner city kids to get the education our country needs WITHOUT the risk of going in harm's way, while at the same time recognizing that the GI Bill was a significant factor in our nation's post-war growth, AND gave my father his PhD which enabled him to teach HUNDREDS of students, AND was also a racially biased and imperfect thing.
You can't "except countries under invasion" without some investment in making sure that invasion doesn't happen in the first place. The key is getting the balance right.
posted by scolbath at 12:56 PM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
I, personally, WANT to have the same military that Iceland or Costa Rica have. I try to live my life to make that possible. But I'm also realistic about what that likely means given 10,000 years of human history, and the likelihood of achieving it. I want to increase the ability of inner city kids to get the education our country needs WITHOUT the risk of going in harm's way, while at the same time recognizing that the GI Bill was a significant factor in our nation's post-war growth, AND gave my father his PhD which enabled him to teach HUNDREDS of students, AND was also a racially biased and imperfect thing.
You can't "except countries under invasion" without some investment in making sure that invasion doesn't happen in the first place. The key is getting the balance right.
posted by scolbath at 12:56 PM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
A bunch of us manage to be ignorant and broke without participating in the military.
A bunch of us also manage to dislike the things the military does without dismissively and cruelly calling other Mefites' loved ones "pariahs".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:28 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
A bunch of us also manage to dislike the things the military does without dismissively and cruelly calling other Mefites' loved ones "pariahs".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:28 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I said I treated my loved ones who were on the military as pariahs when they were. I said nothing about your loved ones. And I also wasn't the person who introduced the idea here. I pointed out that the person who did also wouldn't have said your dad is a parish. He said your dad would have been, while he was working on nukes.
Also, "treating someone as a pariah" is about your/one's relationship to them. It is not something one can be in yourself, it is only possible in relation to other people. Being shunned is an act, not a feature of a person.
posted by Dysk at 1:51 AM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, "treating someone as a pariah" is about your/one's relationship to them. It is not something one can be in yourself, it is only possible in relation to other people. Being shunned is an act, not a feature of a person.
posted by Dysk at 1:51 AM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I guess Dysk is far more saintly than anyone else around them and lives in a much simpler and more straightforward universe.
No, I live in a complicated universe, and life is hard. I just don't accept putting myself before others in a lot of ways that others seem to ignore. It costs me a lot, but it is the only way I can live with myself. I'm autistic, so I like rules, I like thinking the broader consequences of shit through. I am incapable of ignoring the things that it would make life easier to ignore, once I am aware.
posted by Dysk at 1:55 AM on August 30, 2023
No, I live in a complicated universe, and life is hard. I just don't accept putting myself before others in a lot of ways that others seem to ignore. It costs me a lot, but it is the only way I can live with myself. I'm autistic, so I like rules, I like thinking the broader consequences of shit through. I am incapable of ignoring the things that it would make life easier to ignore, once I am aware.
posted by Dysk at 1:55 AM on August 30, 2023
I said I treated my loved ones who were on the military as pariahs when they were. I said nothing about your loved ones. And I also wasn't the person who introduced the idea here.
You weren't the person who introduced the idea, but you used my words to someone else to make your own comment. Clearly at some level you agree with them.
It is possible for someone to only learn the truth about something by going through that experience - much as this missile operator in TFA seems to have done himself.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:12 AM on August 30, 2023
You weren't the person who introduced the idea, but you used my words to someone else to make your own comment. Clearly at some level you agree with them.
It is possible for someone to only learn the truth about something by going through that experience - much as this missile operator in TFA seems to have done himself.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:12 AM on August 30, 2023
Which is why we stop shunning people who stop being part of the military-industrial complex. It's not a perma-ban or a tattoo.
posted by harriet vane at 4:49 AM on August 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by harriet vane at 4:49 AM on August 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Fuck this.
Y'all, I'm thisclose to buttoning my account right now after about 20 years, because YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MY DAMN FATHER.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:11 AM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Y'all, I'm thisclose to buttoning my account right now after about 20 years, because YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MY DAMN FATHER.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:11 AM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Just a quick note and reminder from the Community Guidelines:
Allow others to express themselvesposted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:30 AM on August 30, 2023
Think about what other people have to say. While it is OK to disagree, allow others to speak about their experience and keep the conversation on topic. Avoid turning the conversation into a discussion with specific people. If you see something that you find offensive or inappropriate, feel free to flag it for our moderators to review it and engage with the content of the post instead.
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MY DAMN FATHER.
Everybody is someone's family. Two of us have said we would not associate with your dad, who you brought up as an example (while he was working on nukes!) which hardly seems like the gross offense you're making it out to be? Different people have different morality principles. Are we not allowed to shun anyone, by implication, or is it just your family that are sacrosanct?
posted by Dysk at 10:29 PM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Everybody is someone's family. Two of us have said we would not associate with your dad, who you brought up as an example (while he was working on nukes!) which hardly seems like the gross offense you're making it out to be? Different people have different morality principles. Are we not allowed to shun anyone, by implication, or is it just your family that are sacrosanct?
posted by Dysk at 10:29 PM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like, Republicans are people's family too. Assholes that roll coal are people's family. Billionaires are. Vicars and clergy. All kinds of people that are regularly criticised in the worst terms here on metafilter, that's people's family too. "People working on nuclear weapons" doesn't feel like it should be a special protected class?
posted by Dysk at 10:33 PM on August 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 10:33 PM on August 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
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posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:58 AM on August 28, 2023 [26 favorites]