Cry Hard II
September 4, 2023 8:34 AM Subscribe
"Where we go one, we go all." Let's hope so.
posted by hangashore at 9:03 AM on September 4, 2023 [48 favorites]
posted by hangashore at 9:03 AM on September 4, 2023 [48 favorites]
Hey, thanks for posting this. Very interesting read full of details about the various trials that I hadn't known before. Great read.
posted by hippybear at 9:07 AM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 9:07 AM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the one hand, they are all terrible people and deserve the consequences from their actions. On the other hand, I hate that almost certainly they will get longer/harsher punishments than the people who did the organizing and scheming to make it all happen.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:08 AM on September 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 9:08 AM on September 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
They deserve Gitmo with all the rules their party applied to terrorists.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:13 AM on September 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:13 AM on September 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
Consequences... Life's funny like that.
posted by Czjewel at 9:14 AM on September 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 9:14 AM on September 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
The best part of this is how Trump’s Brownshirt contingent evaporated like a fart in the wind once the consequences started hitting. I’m sure he’d love to have rioters at the various courtrooms he’s being tried, but once they realized it’s not just patriot cosplay they completely disappeared on him.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:18 AM on September 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 9:18 AM on September 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
If a former Marine is convicted of seditious conspiracy, are they stripped of benefits and standing?
posted by Thorzdad at 9:19 AM on September 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 9:19 AM on September 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
The best part of this is how Trump’s Brownshirt contingent evaporated like a fart in the wind once the consequences started hitting.
I dunno, the article twice mentions that one of the guys shouted "Trump Won!" after sentencing as he was being lead away.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:21 AM on September 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
I dunno, the article twice mentions that one of the guys shouted "Trump Won!" after sentencing as he was being lead away.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:21 AM on September 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
I find it hard to believe anyone would hire Norm Pattis as a lawyer. His track record is, at least these days, complete defeats for his clients. On the other hand, he seems to focus on defending the indefensible, so….
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:23 AM on September 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:23 AM on September 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, once the head of the Proud Boys is put away, can we move on to dissolving the national group as a seditious organization, including their auxiliary, the Portland Police Department?
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:26 AM on September 4, 2023 [66 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:26 AM on September 4, 2023 [66 favorites]
I dunno, the article twice mentions that one of the guys shouted "Trump Won!" after sentencing as he was being lead away.
Eh, he's already been convicted, so he doesn't have a whole lot left to lose. But those who aren't facing prison sentences already aren't about to risk it, though, now that consequences are clear. Witness the very half-assed protests that have graced the indictments of the last few months.
posted by jackbishop at 9:51 AM on September 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Eh, he's already been convicted, so he doesn't have a whole lot left to lose. But those who aren't facing prison sentences already aren't about to risk it, though, now that consequences are clear. Witness the very half-assed protests that have graced the indictments of the last few months.
posted by jackbishop at 9:51 AM on September 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
In other proud boy news, Proud Boy Tusitala ‘Tiny’ Toese sentenced to 8 years for violence at Portland rallies.
posted by ryanrs at 10:02 AM on September 4, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 10:02 AM on September 4, 2023 [18 favorites]
The best part of this is how Trump’s Brownshirt contingent evaporated like a fart in the wind once the consequences started hitting.
I've always speculated that it has more to do with the money that funds these groups is drying up than it does anything about consequences.
posted by slogger at 10:08 AM on September 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've always speculated that it has more to do with the money that funds these groups is drying up than it does anything about consequences.
posted by slogger at 10:08 AM on September 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Toese is like the living embodiment of this meme.
posted by Slackermagee at 10:08 AM on September 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 10:08 AM on September 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Proud Boys finding out is very, very good and I have lots of thoughts on that especially as someone who lives in the DC area and engages in a certain amount of leftist activism some of which is occasionally a bit spicy. That said, I am begging for us to please have this conversation without saying anything negative about large bodies or fat people, something that has proved depressingly difficult in the past when stuff like this has come up.
posted by an octopus IRL at 10:24 AM on September 4, 2023 [38 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 10:24 AM on September 4, 2023 [38 favorites]
no one deserves gitmo and anyone put in a prison deserves humane conditions insofar as that as possible in a place where you can’t leave. “anyone,” in this case, includes cops and proud boys.
this has been your lowercase bombastic pronouncement for the day
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:46 AM on September 4, 2023 [48 favorites]
this has been your lowercase bombastic pronouncement for the day
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:46 AM on September 4, 2023 [48 favorites]
I look at the photos of Proud Boys all geared up and ready for war, and invariably my first reaction is "Wow, what a dork."
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:53 AM on September 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:53 AM on September 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
[U.S. Capitol Police Officer Shae Cooney] and other officers near her were beaten with “thin blue line” flags...
I always thought those flags were bullshit.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:12 AM on September 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
I always thought those flags were bullshit.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:12 AM on September 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
"no one deserves gitmo and anyone put in a prison deserves humane conditions"
Okay, sure, and I'm also against the death penalty but I don't think I'm gonna be looking for any vigils to attend for these skidmarks. Some things aren't worth fishing out of the latrine.
posted by kingv at 11:29 AM on September 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Okay, sure, and I'm also against the death penalty but I don't think I'm gonna be looking for any vigils to attend for these skidmarks. Some things aren't worth fishing out of the latrine.
posted by kingv at 11:29 AM on September 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
My anti-carcereal leanings for sure have a priority list and they are at the bottom of it.
I always thought those flags were bullshit.
Nah, it’s about who gets to be a cop. Kyle Rittenhouse? Honorary cop. Guy standing in the way of a fascist? Not-a-cop, false cop, not represented by the flag.
posted by Artw at 11:36 AM on September 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
I always thought those flags were bullshit.
Nah, it’s about who gets to be a cop. Kyle Rittenhouse? Honorary cop. Guy standing in the way of a fascist? Not-a-cop, false cop, not represented by the flag.
posted by Artw at 11:36 AM on September 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
Comparing their sneering, superior attitudes during cross examination (a separate article at the same site) to their desperate crying and begging for lenience afterwards is great. Overcome by regret, really?
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 11:38 AM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 11:38 AM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
"In other proud boy news, Proud Boy Tusitala ‘Tiny’ Toese sentenced to 8 years for violence at Portland rallies.
posted by ryanrs at 10:02 AM on September 4 [9 favorites −] Favorite added! [!] "
I would like to see him transported to prison via helicopter. Just to give him something to think about.
posted by cybrcamper at 11:42 AM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 10:02 AM on September 4 [9 favorites −] Favorite added! [!] "
I would like to see him transported to prison via helicopter. Just to give him something to think about.
posted by cybrcamper at 11:42 AM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Much like Simon and Garfunkel, malice and stupidity have had solo careers. But their most iconic work was as a duo.
posted by East14thTaco at 12:02 PM on September 4, 2023 [30 favorites]
posted by East14thTaco at 12:02 PM on September 4, 2023 [30 favorites]
I think the calls for these terrorists to be sent to Gitmo might be more along the lines of ironic-punishment-dept. than a serious suggestion. It wouldn't not be deserved, even so.
In all seriousness, I do hope against hope that the ringleaders are given the harshest penalties. Treason is a capital offense reserved for the worst offenders, and their acts of treason qualify, in my opinion, by virtue of being coordinated — almost certainly with the help of a certain foreign belligerent nation — and having nearly worked.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:04 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
In all seriousness, I do hope against hope that the ringleaders are given the harshest penalties. Treason is a capital offense reserved for the worst offenders, and their acts of treason qualify, in my opinion, by virtue of being coordinated — almost certainly with the help of a certain foreign belligerent nation — and having nearly worked.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:04 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Pezzola had begged the court for mercy through tears and vowed he was done with politics.Really telling. I don't expect there's any reaching that one.
posted by Western Infidels at 12:06 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Has everyone heard/seen The Late Show's "Abhor-Rent" musical number and slide show, which they did to mark the anniversary of Jan 6th? It's not new obviously, but it's a real goody that is just as enjoyable on rewatch.
posted by orange swan at 2:06 PM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 2:06 PM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
God, I hate these fuckers almost most of all for making me speak in sort-of-defense of them, but I think it is important to note that the things that are used against people we hate today are almost always used on people we like tomorrow.
"Domestic terrorism" charges against J6 may be appropriate in some instances, but I don't know that they are appropriate against all instances, just as they were inappropriate against J20 protesters and were inappropriate against Cop City protesters. Even the FBI, which I inherently distrust, defines domestic terrorism as "Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups to further ideological goals stemming from domestic influences". Violence must mean action against humans, not action against property. Breaking a window is not an inherently violent action, whether it is a capitol building window or a Starbucks window. Pushing over a fence is not an inherently violent action, whether it surrounds a capitol building or a facility to train murderous cops. Hitting humans with sticks is violence. Trampling and macing humans is violence.
And it's not like there was a shortage of charges to get these guys on without adding 'domestic terrorism' into the mix.
posted by corb at 2:23 PM on September 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
"Domestic terrorism" charges against J6 may be appropriate in some instances, but I don't know that they are appropriate against all instances, just as they were inappropriate against J20 protesters and were inappropriate against Cop City protesters. Even the FBI, which I inherently distrust, defines domestic terrorism as "Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups to further ideological goals stemming from domestic influences". Violence must mean action against humans, not action against property. Breaking a window is not an inherently violent action, whether it is a capitol building window or a Starbucks window. Pushing over a fence is not an inherently violent action, whether it surrounds a capitol building or a facility to train murderous cops. Hitting humans with sticks is violence. Trampling and macing humans is violence.
And it's not like there was a shortage of charges to get these guys on without adding 'domestic terrorism' into the mix.
posted by corb at 2:23 PM on September 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
yeah, the terrified legislators and staff in the capitol just didn't understand the definition of violence
posted by ryanrs at 2:32 PM on September 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 2:32 PM on September 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
Nor the capitol police who got assaulted? There was quite a bit of that on J6. And while admittedly ACAB, these "law-abiding patriots" attacked them. And they had an agenda, and they had further ideological goals. Just saying...
posted by Windopaene at 2:36 PM on September 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 2:36 PM on September 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
I think the calls for these terrorists to be sent to Gitmo might be more along the lines of ironic-punishment-dept. than a serious suggestion. It wouldn't not be deserved, even so.
I hope so and that's how I'm choosing to interpret it.
I understand that the idea is funny in a "hahaha you know whose face should really get eaten" sort of way, but the idea that some people don't deserve human rights, even people who are really awful, is a fundamental building block of fascism. We actually don't want leopards eating any faces at all.
I think one of the hardest things to grapple with as a leftist is the idea that even the worst people deserve some consideration as fellow human beings, even though they would never grant consideration to us. It seems so unfair. But it's important. Not believing in this leads to things like inhumane prison conditions - in my state, for example, any discussion of installing AC in prisons is met with "well you shouldn't commit crimes." It's hard to get people on board with improving the lives of people who they think deserve whatever they get. And yeah, some of the people in those prisons did absolutely awful things, worse than any rioter on Jan 6th.
So some people are sensitive to this type of joking because it's kind of like ... I don't know, doing an ironic sexism, only you're not sure how ironic the person actually is being. It reifies the very thing that you're fighting against, I suppose.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:44 PM on September 4, 2023 [25 favorites]
I hope so and that's how I'm choosing to interpret it.
I understand that the idea is funny in a "hahaha you know whose face should really get eaten" sort of way, but the idea that some people don't deserve human rights, even people who are really awful, is a fundamental building block of fascism. We actually don't want leopards eating any faces at all.
I think one of the hardest things to grapple with as a leftist is the idea that even the worst people deserve some consideration as fellow human beings, even though they would never grant consideration to us. It seems so unfair. But it's important. Not believing in this leads to things like inhumane prison conditions - in my state, for example, any discussion of installing AC in prisons is met with "well you shouldn't commit crimes." It's hard to get people on board with improving the lives of people who they think deserve whatever they get. And yeah, some of the people in those prisons did absolutely awful things, worse than any rioter on Jan 6th.
So some people are sensitive to this type of joking because it's kind of like ... I don't know, doing an ironic sexism, only you're not sure how ironic the person actually is being. It reifies the very thing that you're fighting against, I suppose.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:44 PM on September 4, 2023 [25 favorites]
Gitmo is a national shame, and we've been trying to close it through various means for I think decades now, but it's such a deeply entangled shame that it, much like a personal shame you have to keep digging at through therapy, has not yet been dislodged. At this point it feels like even after everyone being held there has died it is going to end up continuing because they can't untangle all the threads that were woven together to get it up and running in the first place.
I think any wishes of Gitmo on any US prisoner are sort of akin to prison rape jokes. Saying that you think the punishment for someone is that they should be sexually assaulted, even if not by officials of the government but by people being held by the government, held in circumstances in which sexual assault is overlooked, is sort of really shitty. Are Gitmo wishes any different in spirit?
posted by hippybear at 2:57 PM on September 4, 2023 [15 favorites]
I think any wishes of Gitmo on any US prisoner are sort of akin to prison rape jokes. Saying that you think the punishment for someone is that they should be sexually assaulted, even if not by officials of the government but by people being held by the government, held in circumstances in which sexual assault is overlooked, is sort of really shitty. Are Gitmo wishes any different in spirit?
posted by hippybear at 2:57 PM on September 4, 2023 [15 favorites]
On the other hand, the liberal urge to coddle Nazis is now we got to this point with these people, all consequences being delayed across years of political violence until the point they felt confident they could storm the Capitol unopposed.
Compare the responses the J6 to the George Floyd protests and tell me some kind of slippery slope argument is even slightly possible.
posted by Artw at 3:01 PM on September 4, 2023 [17 favorites]
Compare the responses the J6 to the George Floyd protests and tell me some kind of slippery slope argument is even slightly possible.
posted by Artw at 3:01 PM on September 4, 2023 [17 favorites]
One thing I've gleaned from things I've digested across the years is that after Waco and Ruby Ridge and Oklahoma City, there WAS a focus on domestic terrorism, but that 2001 entirely wiped that out and they just ignored all these people and groups for 20 years. Charlottesville was the wake-up call for much of law enforcement along with the country about this potential internal threat.
I think we're seeing right now the refocussed attention and willingness to make domestic moves with the recent arrests of a couple of people who made public threats against various political officials well before they made any action. I won't be surprised if we see a lot more of this in the coming while.
It's very very unfortunate that all this was ignored for literally a generation, even while in the part of the country where I live, diagonally across the country from the South, I was seeing more and more Rebel flags and 3%ers decals and other indications of rising white supremacy. A nail bomb was found in this area before a MLK day parade not too many years ago, before it went off thank goodness.
But my point is, this isn't new, it was known, it got ignored, it's being seen now. I hope the focus continues to be laser sharp.
posted by hippybear at 3:09 PM on September 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think we're seeing right now the refocussed attention and willingness to make domestic moves with the recent arrests of a couple of people who made public threats against various political officials well before they made any action. I won't be surprised if we see a lot more of this in the coming while.
It's very very unfortunate that all this was ignored for literally a generation, even while in the part of the country where I live, diagonally across the country from the South, I was seeing more and more Rebel flags and 3%ers decals and other indications of rising white supremacy. A nail bomb was found in this area before a MLK day parade not too many years ago, before it went off thank goodness.
But my point is, this isn't new, it was known, it got ignored, it's being seen now. I hope the focus continues to be laser sharp.
posted by hippybear at 3:09 PM on September 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
To be very clear no white proud boy moron in this story is being sent to Guantamo Bay. They are going to normal American prison for normal American people.
Normal American prison is an atrocity and these absolute pieces of shit deserve better than the place they're going to live while I drive from the airport to the city it was too expensive to fly to. But it's not Guantimo Bay, and the fact that none of the people in the article have Hussain in their name should have them thanking their lucky pearly-white fucking.
posted by East14thTaco at 3:13 PM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Normal American prison is an atrocity and these absolute pieces of shit deserve better than the place they're going to live while I drive from the airport to the city it was too expensive to fly to. But it's not Guantimo Bay, and the fact that none of the people in the article have Hussain in their name should have them thanking their lucky pearly-white fucking.
posted by East14thTaco at 3:13 PM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Put Trump and his gang of wealthy thugs in Gitmo and see how fast they close it down. My opinion on Trump is execution is the punishment for treason (look up the Rosenbergs) and he qualifies. I'm not expecting anything worse than a country club prison, but I know what I want to see. I'm happy that the proud Boys are going to prison, AND I still believe in prison reform, even if it means it makes their time easier. US prisons are inhumane. The whole prison industrial complex needs to shut down (and some of THOSE people need to see the inside of their "product") OK, yes, this is all over the map, but then so are my feelings.
posted by evilDoug at 3:21 PM on September 4, 2023
posted by evilDoug at 3:21 PM on September 4, 2023
But those who aren't facing prison sentences already aren't about to risk it, though, now that consequences are clear. Witness the very half-assed protests that have graced the indictments of the last few months.
Ehhh . . . I'm not very confident in this idea (expressed in multiple places) that the lack of "protests" around Trump's various court appearances is an indication that the MAGAhats are scared of consequences. I think the more likely explanations are far more mundane - time and money.
To wit, while the MAGAhats are generally more well-off than a lot of the public perceptions of them (they're more likely to own John Deere dealerships than a busted-down mobile home), they're still much like the rest of us - they've got limited time off and disposable income. It's one thing to make a trip to DC when you've got weeks to plan and budget for it and there's a chance you can put your god-emperor back on the throne. It's rather another to make that happen with 24 to 48 hours notice just to wave a sign around.
I also think it's more likely that with the leaders of the Proud Boys & Oath Keepers and a variety of other prominent right-wing rabble-rousers occupied with their own legal troubles, there's been no-one to really organize and promote a protest. While I don't think we've gotten nearly all the truth about the cooperation and communication between various people & organizations (very much possibly including various Tump administration officials and Congresspeople) the Congressional hearings and the trials of the various J6 defendants have made it clear that Trump was never some kind of wizard who could command thousands of supporters to spontaneously appear with a couple of Tweets. Many people spent a lot of time and effort to make Jan 6 happen. Nobody's had the time and effort to make anything similar happen for the indictments.
Sure, maybe some of them are scared and laying low. But I'd bet a lot of them just can't get their shit together enough to make a serious protest happen, which would be hard to do anyway in the short amount of time between the announcement of the indictments and Trump's actual court appearances.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:33 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ehhh . . . I'm not very confident in this idea (expressed in multiple places) that the lack of "protests" around Trump's various court appearances is an indication that the MAGAhats are scared of consequences. I think the more likely explanations are far more mundane - time and money.
To wit, while the MAGAhats are generally more well-off than a lot of the public perceptions of them (they're more likely to own John Deere dealerships than a busted-down mobile home), they're still much like the rest of us - they've got limited time off and disposable income. It's one thing to make a trip to DC when you've got weeks to plan and budget for it and there's a chance you can put your god-emperor back on the throne. It's rather another to make that happen with 24 to 48 hours notice just to wave a sign around.
I also think it's more likely that with the leaders of the Proud Boys & Oath Keepers and a variety of other prominent right-wing rabble-rousers occupied with their own legal troubles, there's been no-one to really organize and promote a protest. While I don't think we've gotten nearly all the truth about the cooperation and communication between various people & organizations (very much possibly including various Tump administration officials and Congresspeople) the Congressional hearings and the trials of the various J6 defendants have made it clear that Trump was never some kind of wizard who could command thousands of supporters to spontaneously appear with a couple of Tweets. Many people spent a lot of time and effort to make Jan 6 happen. Nobody's had the time and effort to make anything similar happen for the indictments.
Sure, maybe some of them are scared and laying low. But I'd bet a lot of them just can't get their shit together enough to make a serious protest happen, which would be hard to do anyway in the short amount of time between the announcement of the indictments and Trump's actual court appearances.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:33 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Normal American prison is an atrocity and these absolute pieces of shit deserve better than the place they're going to live while I drive from the airport to the city it was too expensive to fly to.
One of the amusing things about this was these far right Republicans feigning shock over the horrendous conditions in normal American correctional facilities now that thefederal agents and antifa agitators "Jan 6th political prisoners" are being held there.
posted by Selena777 at 3:48 PM on September 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
One of the amusing things about this was these far right Republicans feigning shock over the horrendous conditions in normal American correctional facilities now that the
posted by Selena777 at 3:48 PM on September 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
On the other hand, the liberal urge to coddle Nazis is now we got to this point with these people
Is it really okay to punch Nazis?
Here we are, I guess.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:20 PM on September 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Is it really okay to punch Nazis?
Here we are, I guess.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:20 PM on September 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
the liberal urge to coddle Nazis
[Citations needed]
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 5:29 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
[Citations needed]
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 5:29 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Violence must mean action against humans, not action against property
The January 6 traitors murdered police. There's no grey area there, despite what Republicans and other extremist sympathizers may say. There is also a rational (and IMO necessary/important) argument that these traitors should be charged with manslaughter and conspiracy in the death of Ashli Babbitt.
I don't think these people deserve time in a torture facility like Gitmo, but they have been let off lightly by all historical standards. We used to punch Nazis and now our mainstream media give them sympathetic coverage. The coddling that we allow them to do only enables further Republican extremism.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:53 PM on September 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
The January 6 traitors murdered police. There's no grey area there, despite what Republicans and other extremist sympathizers may say. There is also a rational (and IMO necessary/important) argument that these traitors should be charged with manslaughter and conspiracy in the death of Ashli Babbitt.
I don't think these people deserve time in a torture facility like Gitmo, but they have been let off lightly by all historical standards. We used to punch Nazis and now our mainstream media give them sympathetic coverage. The coddling that we allow them to do only enables further Republican extremism.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:53 PM on September 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
I’d like to feel good about this, but the fact that all of these sentences are barely half of the time that the government sought as punishment- especially when there’s no doubt that a) they did it, and b) they’re (almost all) unrepentant about having done it, and c) they are being held up as examples and fundraising inspiration by people hoping to repeat and glorify their offenses. If anything, the sentences say to me that what they’re finding out… isn’t the clear-cut message not to fuck around that we’re hoping it is.
posted by Mchelly at 5:54 PM on September 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 5:54 PM on September 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
There has to be a gray area, or someone would’ve been prosecuted for manslaughter at least, right?
posted by Selena777 at 6:33 PM on September 4, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 6:33 PM on September 4, 2023
I don't know about manslaughter, but there have been plenty of charges for Jan 6 defendants that are on the order of assault with a deadly weapon intending to do harm, etc. I don't know if any of those charges were carried through to prosecution, as there were a lot of plea deals made.
With the Georgia indictments we're at well over 1000 people charged with crimes attached to this, many of them already sentenced.
posted by hippybear at 6:42 PM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
With the Georgia indictments we're at well over 1000 people charged with crimes attached to this, many of them already sentenced.
posted by hippybear at 6:42 PM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
W/r/t the grappling with anti-carceral leanings. There's many hundreds of years of context here. Despite the American notion that arms are there to resist one's Government in extremis, there is no State in the world with a more consistent history of absolutely and ruthlessly stomping on any group that tries to put that theory into practice; from the Whiskey Rebellion right on. From an outsider's point of view, that these people have managed to get themselves into the justice system is out-of-the-ordinary, from the historical perspective the 'normal' American response to an armed insurrection (which, remember, in historical context happens regularly) would have been a lot more like Waco, where the FBI brought an M1 Abrams tank along, or the 1920s miners' strikes, or any other instance where the State in the US has brought its infinite monopoly of violence. It's right to be keen for carceral reform, but it's worth remembering that the development of jails, as an alternative to simple violence, has been itself a reform.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:44 PM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:44 PM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
There has to be a gray area, or someone would’ve been prosecuted for manslaughter at least, right?
it is not necessary for a charge to be made by the State, for a crime that has been committed that everyone has seen
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:50 PM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
it is not necessary for a charge to be made by the State, for a crime that has been committed that everyone has seen
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:50 PM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Agreed on some of your points Fiasco da Gama others not so keen on. That said, these "patriot" 2nd Amendment shitgibbons are just so deluded, and bogus in their positions. Your AR-15 isn't going to do shit if some tanks roll in. And your compound gets wasted by a missile, shot well out of range of anything you have.
So it's just to intimidate the people who aren't armed to the teeth.
But the US Gov has always been on the side of keeping business running, and been able to take care of whatever business they are faced with. And never seem afraid to use it.
posted by Windopaene at 7:01 PM on September 4, 2023
So it's just to intimidate the people who aren't armed to the teeth.
But the US Gov has always been on the side of keeping business running, and been able to take care of whatever business they are faced with. And never seem afraid to use it.
posted by Windopaene at 7:01 PM on September 4, 2023
I mean: I am not an American, and I look at this from the perspective of an outsider, but it still astounds me how lenient was the armed response. The rioters had said, repeatedly, what they were going to do, then they did that! They credibly threatened to kill the Vice-President! It is extraordinary to me that it ended with arrests, and not with the clanking of tank tracks on the street. Good in its own way, but extraordinary in the scope of the history of the USA.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:06 PM on September 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:06 PM on September 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
usually the rebels don't have the president giving them cover
posted by ryanrs at 7:17 PM on September 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 7:17 PM on September 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
The January 6 traitors murdered police. There's no grey area there
So no, you are absolutely incorrect, when we are talking about criminal charges and not morality. We can say they are fuckers, or bastards, or immoral, but murder is a strong and specific word that means something in criminal law, just as domestic terrorism is a strong and specific set of words that should mean something. Just as it is not good for democracy when people attempt to storm the capitol to try to overturn an election, it is not good for a justice system when people attempt to overcharge criminal defendants simply because they perceive them as bad people even if they are right and they are in fact bad people.
Murder, federally, because this took place on federal grounds, is killing with malice aforethought, which is likely why they weren't, to my knowledge, charged with it.
When I say that not all of these people should be charged with domestic terrorism, I'm not saying they're not bad people, or that legislators in the capitol weren't afraid, or that people didn't die as a result of the overall event, or that what they did wasn't monstrous and an absolute violation of the rule of law. I'm saying that we don't need to overcharge in order to punish them, and when you let prosecutors get away with overcharging criminal defendants, it hurts people everywhere.
posted by corb at 8:27 PM on September 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
So no, you are absolutely incorrect, when we are talking about criminal charges and not morality. We can say they are fuckers, or bastards, or immoral, but murder is a strong and specific word that means something in criminal law, just as domestic terrorism is a strong and specific set of words that should mean something. Just as it is not good for democracy when people attempt to storm the capitol to try to overturn an election, it is not good for a justice system when people attempt to overcharge criminal defendants simply because they perceive them as bad people even if they are right and they are in fact bad people.
Murder, federally, because this took place on federal grounds, is killing with malice aforethought, which is likely why they weren't, to my knowledge, charged with it.
When I say that not all of these people should be charged with domestic terrorism, I'm not saying they're not bad people, or that legislators in the capitol weren't afraid, or that people didn't die as a result of the overall event, or that what they did wasn't monstrous and an absolute violation of the rule of law. I'm saying that we don't need to overcharge in order to punish them, and when you let prosecutors get away with overcharging criminal defendants, it hurts people everywhere.
posted by corb at 8:27 PM on September 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
There has to be a gray area, or someone would’ve been prosecuted for manslaughter at least, right?
Is it probable that officers would have still died, if those traitors had not traveled to and attacked Washington DC? Because if not, then then that attack, and the attackers, are causal elements and that needs to be acknowledged and addressed on all moral, ethical, and legal levels.
So no, you are absolutely incorrect
If historical precedent is required, people may die after a violent attack and that does not absolve the murderers of their guilt. When James Brady was wounded during the Reagan assassination attempt, he later died of his wounds and the murderer was found guilty of Brady's death, even though his death took place some time after the initial attack.
If not least as a legal matter, this is an actual reality outside of social media sites like Metafilter and not one I'm inventing from whole cloth. The January 6 traitors that FOX News and conservatives and other people (even here) celebrate as heroes or not-so-bad-people are actual cop killers, if not outright domestic terrorists and neo-Nazis.
I won't say what Metafilter should or should not be as a social media network, because that's really Metatalk territory, but if we're going to be a haven for defending white supremacists who tried to overthrow the government, domestic terrorists who literally killed officers of the law for getting in their way, we need to have a hard look in the mirror. Seriously.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:38 PM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is it probable that officers would have still died, if those traitors had not traveled to and attacked Washington DC? Because if not, then then that attack, and the attackers, are causal elements and that needs to be acknowledged and addressed on all moral, ethical, and legal levels.
So no, you are absolutely incorrect
If historical precedent is required, people may die after a violent attack and that does not absolve the murderers of their guilt. When James Brady was wounded during the Reagan assassination attempt, he later died of his wounds and the murderer was found guilty of Brady's death, even though his death took place some time after the initial attack.
If not least as a legal matter, this is an actual reality outside of social media sites like Metafilter and not one I'm inventing from whole cloth. The January 6 traitors that FOX News and conservatives and other people (even here) celebrate as heroes or not-so-bad-people are actual cop killers, if not outright domestic terrorists and neo-Nazis.
I won't say what Metafilter should or should not be as a social media network, because that's really Metatalk territory, but if we're going to be a haven for defending white supremacists who tried to overthrow the government, domestic terrorists who literally killed officers of the law for getting in their way, we need to have a hard look in the mirror. Seriously.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:38 PM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
So just to be clear, which defendant are you saying isn't a domestic terrorist? And are you mad at the prosecutor for seeking the enhancement, mad at the judge for agreeing, or mad at the legislature for making the law in the first place?
Like, just come out and say "I don't think Joe Biggs is a domestic terrorist" so we can argue about something concrete.
posted by ryanrs at 9:39 PM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like, just come out and say "I don't think Joe Biggs is a domestic terrorist" so we can argue about something concrete.
posted by ryanrs at 9:39 PM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Your AR-15 isn't going to do shit if some tanks roll in.
Don't tread on thee. Your tank won't do shit if you have to use it.
oh, the smiley guy early in the insurrection I remember him on TV and when they showed his big grin all the anchors were like snickering seems like the only funny thing that day.
posted by clavdivs at 10:17 PM on September 4, 2023
Don't tread on thee. Your tank won't do shit if you have to use it.
oh, the smiley guy early in the insurrection I remember him on TV and when they showed his big grin all the anchors were like snickering seems like the only funny thing that day.
posted by clavdivs at 10:17 PM on September 4, 2023
Well, they fucked around and now they found out that, unless you're a rich white person standing back and letting other people do your dirty work, there are sometimes consequences to your actions. Lesson: be a rich white person.
posted by dg at 10:25 PM on September 4, 2023
posted by dg at 10:25 PM on September 4, 2023
Not exclusively but, in this case, Trump was one of those people (perhaps 'self-proclaimed rich' fits better in his case).
posted by dg at 11:02 PM on September 4, 2023
posted by dg at 11:02 PM on September 4, 2023
Lesson: be a rich white person.
Stocks rally to record highs, Nasdaq closes above 13,000 for the first time
PUBLISHED WED, JAN 6 2021
Stocks close lower to start the week, pull back from all-time highs amid valuation concerns
PUBLISHED SUN, JAN 10 2021
posted by clavdivs at 11:34 PM on September 4, 2023
Stocks rally to record highs, Nasdaq closes above 13,000 for the first time
PUBLISHED WED, JAN 6 2021
Stocks close lower to start the week, pull back from all-time highs amid valuation concerns
PUBLISHED SUN, JAN 10 2021
posted by clavdivs at 11:34 PM on September 4, 2023
which defendant are you saying isn't a domestic terrorist? And are you mad at the prosecutor for seeking the enhancement, mad at the judge for agreeing, or mad at the legislature for making the law in the first place
So, looking more closely at just the article, it becomes clear to me that reporting on convictions is just really, really bad. There is not enough info in the article IMO to suggest the terrorism enhancement is appropriate on any of the named defendants (Rehl, Tarrio, Nordean, Biggs, Pezzola), and for the love of god, it doesn't even list all the charges they were convicted on. I assume if any of them had included assault rather than just walking past assault, it would have been mentioned, however.
You aren't wrong, though, that I do broadly disagree with the terrorism enhancement guidelines in the first place, because they create a special class of criminals, and impose additional sentences on top of existing crimes that already have valid sentencing. I'm not alone; there are strong debates about the constitutionality of the post 9/11 anti-terrorism provisions. Because of those debates, I also feel that prosecutors who seek to use those terrorism enhancements to create additional sentencing have some moral culpability. Even for those who believe in prison, there is no effective deterrance or rehabilitative effect by creating the additional time - 17 years and 10 years are effectively the same in terms of the yawning hell opening before them, and by the time they get out, they will be past the danger age where this sort of behavior is largely appealing.
I also feel the judge pulled a copout - Kelly said his job is to apply the sentencing guidelines, but that's BS - they are guidelines, and he has broad discretion, as of 2005, per SCOTUS. He can ignore them at his leisure.
posted by corb at 7:08 AM on September 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
So, looking more closely at just the article, it becomes clear to me that reporting on convictions is just really, really bad. There is not enough info in the article IMO to suggest the terrorism enhancement is appropriate on any of the named defendants (Rehl, Tarrio, Nordean, Biggs, Pezzola), and for the love of god, it doesn't even list all the charges they were convicted on. I assume if any of them had included assault rather than just walking past assault, it would have been mentioned, however.
You aren't wrong, though, that I do broadly disagree with the terrorism enhancement guidelines in the first place, because they create a special class of criminals, and impose additional sentences on top of existing crimes that already have valid sentencing. I'm not alone; there are strong debates about the constitutionality of the post 9/11 anti-terrorism provisions. Because of those debates, I also feel that prosecutors who seek to use those terrorism enhancements to create additional sentencing have some moral culpability. Even for those who believe in prison, there is no effective deterrance or rehabilitative effect by creating the additional time - 17 years and 10 years are effectively the same in terms of the yawning hell opening before them, and by the time they get out, they will be past the danger age where this sort of behavior is largely appealing.
I also feel the judge pulled a copout - Kelly said his job is to apply the sentencing guidelines, but that's BS - they are guidelines, and he has broad discretion, as of 2005, per SCOTUS. He can ignore them at his leisure.
posted by corb at 7:08 AM on September 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Every story about the Proud Boys makes me laugh at least a little, because this ultra-manly, violent, fascist, White supremacist group is named after one of (Jewish and openly gay musical theater giant) Howard Ashman’s songs for the Disney animated film Aladdin. They know this, and sing the song together as a group at meetings, which is such weird, oblivious self-parody.
Fascists have no sense of irony. (I assume that’s how Shostakovich openly “hid” the obvious protest at the end of his 5th symphony, Stalin took it at face value and heard that torturous conclusion as actually patriotic, somehow.)
posted by LooseFilter at 7:36 AM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Fascists have no sense of irony. (I assume that’s how Shostakovich openly “hid” the obvious protest at the end of his 5th symphony, Stalin took it at face value and heard that torturous conclusion as actually patriotic, somehow.)
posted by LooseFilter at 7:36 AM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Irony is when you do a fascism and get caught and say “it was ironic!”.
posted by Artw at 8:23 AM on September 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:23 AM on September 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
You aren't wrong, though, that I do broadly disagree with the terrorism enhancement guidelines in the first place, because they create a special class of criminals, and impose additional sentences on top of existing crimes that already have valid sentencing.
Terrorists should be a special class of criminal, though, as the very definition of terrorism denotes - terrorism is the use of violence in the furtherance of political goals. It's similar to bias enhancement (and the two are related as such.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:28 AM on September 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Terrorists should be a special class of criminal, though, as the very definition of terrorism denotes - terrorism is the use of violence in the furtherance of political goals. It's similar to bias enhancement (and the two are related as such.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:28 AM on September 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
17 years and 10 years are effectively the same in terms of the yawning hell opening before them, and by the time they get out, they will be past the danger age where this sort of behavior is largely appealing.
These are not young men convicted of a crime of passion/stupidity. This attempted takeover of government was planned and led by old men, some in their 50s and 60s. The average age of all Jan 6 defendants was 41. From what I've seen, this brand of right-wing terrorism remains attractive to these people late into their final years.
55 Rhodes
52 Meggs
44 Pezzola
41 Bertino
38 Watkins
37 Biggs
37 Minuta
36 Rehl
36 Tarrio
30 Nordean
(approx ages at time of offense)
posted by ryanrs at 1:15 PM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
These are not young men convicted of a crime of passion/stupidity. This attempted takeover of government was planned and led by old men, some in their 50s and 60s. The average age of all Jan 6 defendants was 41. From what I've seen, this brand of right-wing terrorism remains attractive to these people late into their final years.
55 Rhodes
52 Meggs
44 Pezzola
41 Bertino
38 Watkins
37 Biggs
37 Minuta
36 Rehl
36 Tarrio
30 Nordean
(approx ages at time of offense)
posted by ryanrs at 1:15 PM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm in favor of these people getting terrorism enhancements just to make it less palatable for a future R president to pardon them. If they are eligible under the letter of the law, then pile it on.
posted by ryanrs at 1:42 PM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ryanrs at 1:42 PM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
When I say that not all of these people should be charged with domestic terrorism, I'm not saying they're not bad people, or that legislators in the capitol weren't afraid, or that people didn't die as a result of the overall event, or that what they did wasn't monstrous and an absolute violation of the rule of law. I'm saying that we don't need to overcharge in order to punish them, and when you let prosecutors get away with overcharging criminal defendants, it hurts people everywhere.
First, a lot of us don't agree that charging people who organized an armed revolt against the legitimate government of the United States with the intent to stop the lawful transfer of power with domestic terrorism is overcharging.
Second (and this is something I've brought up in many a thread), the 'bad people' argument is a bad faith euphemism that is meant to obscure needed context in order to strengthen an argument the person that positing it feels is weak. And as such, I'm going to respond with the response I've given in those prior threads - please tell us why everyone considers these individuals to be 'bad people'? Because the reality is that the answer to that is, as I just stated, that they are people who organized an armed revolt against the legitimate government of the United States with the intent to stop the lawful transfer of power. And if you honestly feel that they shouldn't be charged with domestic terrorism, that is your position to hold and argument to make - but I ask that you make the argument without resorting to euphemism to conceal context that you find detrimental - because in the end, all it does is show how weak the argument truly is.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:42 PM on September 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
First, a lot of us don't agree that charging people who organized an armed revolt against the legitimate government of the United States with the intent to stop the lawful transfer of power with domestic terrorism is overcharging.
Second (and this is something I've brought up in many a thread), the 'bad people' argument is a bad faith euphemism that is meant to obscure needed context in order to strengthen an argument the person that positing it feels is weak. And as such, I'm going to respond with the response I've given in those prior threads - please tell us why everyone considers these individuals to be 'bad people'? Because the reality is that the answer to that is, as I just stated, that they are people who organized an armed revolt against the legitimate government of the United States with the intent to stop the lawful transfer of power. And if you honestly feel that they shouldn't be charged with domestic terrorism, that is your position to hold and argument to make - but I ask that you make the argument without resorting to euphemism to conceal context that you find detrimental - because in the end, all it does is show how weak the argument truly is.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:42 PM on September 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
Enrique Tarrio gets a sentence of 22 years in prison.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 2:54 PM on September 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 2:54 PM on September 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
You beat me to it! But here's a news article for anyone looking.
“I am not a political zealot. Inflicting harm or changing the results of the election was not my goal,” Tarrio said.
“Please show me mercy,” he said, adding, “I ask you that you not take my 40s from me.”
Amazing. Just like the above, as soon as they realize this is real, they crumble. Just absolutely crumble into tiny pieces.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 3:00 PM on September 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
“I am not a political zealot. Inflicting harm or changing the results of the election was not my goal,” Tarrio said.
“Please show me mercy,” he said, adding, “I ask you that you not take my 40s from me.”
Amazing. Just like the above, as soon as they realize this is real, they crumble. Just absolutely crumble into tiny pieces.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 3:00 PM on September 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
And he cried.
posted by Artw at 3:05 PM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 3:05 PM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Shoulda been the full 33.
posted by Artw at 3:18 PM on September 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:18 PM on September 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
the 'bad people' argument is a bad faith euphemism that is meant to obscure needed context in order to strengthen an argument the person that positing it feels is weak.
So, I think you're very much misreading the context that I'm coming from. To be more clear, I'm a law student whose primary exposure to domestic terrorism charges for protesters has been against activists, largely anarchists, on the left. When I shorthand to 'yes, yes, I don't disagree these people are bad people' it's not to eliminate context and protect them, it's because I find that point uninteresting to discuss because we all agree there. Nobody here likes the January 6 white nationalists. We may dislike them for different reasons, or in different degrees, but it strikes me as just preaching to the choir to talk about how bad they are.
I feel that it is deeply morally important to force prosecutors to fight tooth and nail for every element of their case, and that if an enhancement is supposed to be for violent acts - if that was the intention of the legislature when it was creating that piece - then it should be used only for actual violent acts that meet the definition of domestic terrorism. Not seditious conspiracy, not conspiracy to interfere with congressional business. Acts where the violence in order to gain their goals was the point. And I don't think, in these circumstances, that it applies.
I believe that the prosecutor proved their case for a seditious conspiracy to change the results of the election by stopping the certification of Biden's win. But I do not believe that the prosecutor proved that they planned a specifically violent action in order to do so. Generic calls for starting a revolution are so ubiquitous on social media for this generation that they are meaningless. Puffed up talking to make themselves seem big and bad on signal chats are more in line with incitement to riot than domestic terrorism, in my view. And most importantly, that's all shit that applies to other movements. If these guys can be charged for domestic terrorism for calling for an armed revolution, or for calling for overrunning the capitol, so can half the left. And I'm not okay with that.
posted by corb at 3:23 PM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
So, I think you're very much misreading the context that I'm coming from. To be more clear, I'm a law student whose primary exposure to domestic terrorism charges for protesters has been against activists, largely anarchists, on the left. When I shorthand to 'yes, yes, I don't disagree these people are bad people' it's not to eliminate context and protect them, it's because I find that point uninteresting to discuss because we all agree there. Nobody here likes the January 6 white nationalists. We may dislike them for different reasons, or in different degrees, but it strikes me as just preaching to the choir to talk about how bad they are.
I feel that it is deeply morally important to force prosecutors to fight tooth and nail for every element of their case, and that if an enhancement is supposed to be for violent acts - if that was the intention of the legislature when it was creating that piece - then it should be used only for actual violent acts that meet the definition of domestic terrorism. Not seditious conspiracy, not conspiracy to interfere with congressional business. Acts where the violence in order to gain their goals was the point. And I don't think, in these circumstances, that it applies.
I believe that the prosecutor proved their case for a seditious conspiracy to change the results of the election by stopping the certification of Biden's win. But I do not believe that the prosecutor proved that they planned a specifically violent action in order to do so. Generic calls for starting a revolution are so ubiquitous on social media for this generation that they are meaningless. Puffed up talking to make themselves seem big and bad on signal chats are more in line with incitement to riot than domestic terrorism, in my view. And most importantly, that's all shit that applies to other movements. If these guys can be charged for domestic terrorism for calling for an armed revolution, or for calling for overrunning the capitol, so can half the left. And I'm not okay with that.
posted by corb at 3:23 PM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
What the hell? They didn't just call for an armed revolution, they did it! Nobody gave a shit about their social media posting until they swarmed the capitol.
posted by ryanrs at 3:28 PM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 3:28 PM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
When I shorthand to 'yes, yes, I don't disagree these people are bad people' it's not to eliminate context and protect them, it's because I find that point uninteresting to discuss because we all agree there.When I shorthand to 'yes, yes, I don't disagree these people are bad people' it's not to eliminate context and protect them, it's because I find that point uninteresting to discuss because we all agree there.
And my point is that it's not shorthand, but a lie of omission. Just because you don't find pointing out the acts of these individuals that is driving the animus against them to be interesting doesn't make it so, and I (and others) find that information to be quite relevant in these matters because as I've said before, people can "dislike" things for very good reasons! So no, I'm not misreading the context - I'm outright disagreeing with your position because I find the use of "like" and "dislike" in this context to be a lie of omission that obscures and hides relevant information.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:44 PM on September 5, 2023
And my point is that it's not shorthand, but a lie of omission. Just because you don't find pointing out the acts of these individuals that is driving the animus against them to be interesting doesn't make it so, and I (and others) find that information to be quite relevant in these matters because as I've said before, people can "dislike" things for very good reasons! So no, I'm not misreading the context - I'm outright disagreeing with your position because I find the use of "like" and "dislike" in this context to be a lie of omission that obscures and hides relevant information.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:44 PM on September 5, 2023
Amazing. Just like the above, as soon as they realize this is real, they crumble. Just absolutely crumble into tiny pieces.
I’m not sure they really “crumbled,” exactly. While I kind of like the idea of Christopher Cantwell having to change his nickname to “A Crying Nazi,” I think a lot of the tears and begging was a display for the court, jurors, and judge in hopes of getting a lighter sentence. Joe Biggs, who made a very sad plea to not be taken away from his daughter, because, you know, your Honor, he had a child who will have to grow up without a father, was bragging to Alex Jones this week about how he-manly he was and how the judge railroaded him. The moment the sentence came down, the waterworks went off.
Why he’s allowed to call into Alex Jones’ propaganda fest from prison, I don’t know, but here we are.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:50 PM on September 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’m not sure they really “crumbled,” exactly. While I kind of like the idea of Christopher Cantwell having to change his nickname to “A Crying Nazi,” I think a lot of the tears and begging was a display for the court, jurors, and judge in hopes of getting a lighter sentence. Joe Biggs, who made a very sad plea to not be taken away from his daughter, because, you know, your Honor, he had a child who will have to grow up without a father, was bragging to Alex Jones this week about how he-manly he was and how the judge railroaded him. The moment the sentence came down, the waterworks went off.
Why he’s allowed to call into Alex Jones’ propaganda fest from prison, I don’t know, but here we are.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:50 PM on September 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
And if you honestly feel that they shouldn't be charged with domestic terrorism, that is your position to hold and argument to make - but I ask that you make the argument without resorting to euphemism to conceal context that you find detrimental - because in the end, all it does is show how weak the argument truly is.
I'm outright disagreeing with your position because I find the use of "like" and "dislike" in this context to be a lie of omission that obscures and hides relevant information.
Agh, it's possible I'm dense, but NoxAeternum can you elaborate on the "lie of omission" part of this, or what relevant information you're saying is being hidden?
It's possible it's just my 4:30pm brain but I'm just trying to follow the back-and-forth between you and corb and finding myself a little lost, sorry.
posted by kensington314 at 4:23 PM on September 5, 2023
I'm outright disagreeing with your position because I find the use of "like" and "dislike" in this context to be a lie of omission that obscures and hides relevant information.
Agh, it's possible I'm dense, but NoxAeternum can you elaborate on the "lie of omission" part of this, or what relevant information you're saying is being hidden?
It's possible it's just my 4:30pm brain but I'm just trying to follow the back-and-forth between you and corb and finding myself a little lost, sorry.
posted by kensington314 at 4:23 PM on September 5, 2023
Shoulda been the full 33
While I agree - 22 years should still be enough time for him to start a solo career from inside after the rest of the J6 Prison Choir have long been released.
(Would be kind of wild if the “royalties” from that J6 Choir song topping digital charts earlier this year ended up flowing to Torrio’s family more over time as he slowly becomes the last prisoner that the “charity” for that song was set up to aid. Like the world’s shittest Tontine. Of course assumes any “royalties” aren’t grifted from the “charity” along the way…which umm…yeah…I wouldn’t budget for them…)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 4:24 PM on September 5, 2023
While I agree - 22 years should still be enough time for him to start a solo career from inside after the rest of the J6 Prison Choir have long been released.
(Would be kind of wild if the “royalties” from that J6 Choir song topping digital charts earlier this year ended up flowing to Torrio’s family more over time as he slowly becomes the last prisoner that the “charity” for that song was set up to aid. Like the world’s shittest Tontine. Of course assumes any “royalties” aren’t grifted from the “charity” along the way…which umm…yeah…I wouldn’t budget for them…)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 4:24 PM on September 5, 2023
They didn't just call for an armed revolution, they did it! Nobody gave a shit about their social media posting until they swarmed the capitol.
This is literally the entire basis for the charges against Trump. You can say anything you want, but as soon as you take action, it ceases to be a First Amendment case about free speech and every action taken becomes a criminal act.
posted by hippybear at 4:28 PM on September 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is literally the entire basis for the charges against Trump. You can say anything you want, but as soon as you take action, it ceases to be a First Amendment case about free speech and every action taken becomes a criminal act.
posted by hippybear at 4:28 PM on September 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
None of this shit counts as “in Minecraft”. They did not plan a coup “ironically”.
posted by Artw at 4:30 PM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 4:30 PM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Judge Kelly has said that the enhancement technically applies to each of the five men’s cases though he has acknowledged that none of them engaged in typical acts of terrorism like blowing up buildings or attacking military installations.
Since the Oklahoma City bombing, there has been a systemic reluctance to label violent right-wing extremists as terrorists, within the justice system, by law enforcement, as well as by mainstream media. To the extent that parole or a Republican official will ultimately give these terrorists their freedom, these sentences are tragically short, failing to acknowledge the seriousness of the acts involved.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:10 PM on September 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
Since the Oklahoma City bombing, there has been a systemic reluctance to label violent right-wing extremists as terrorists, within the justice system, by law enforcement, as well as by mainstream media. To the extent that parole or a Republican official will ultimately give these terrorists their freedom, these sentences are tragically short, failing to acknowledge the seriousness of the acts involved.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:10 PM on September 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
Agh, it's possible I'm dense, but NoxAeternum can you elaborate on the "lie of omission" part of this, or what relevant information you're saying is being hidden?
So, the issue is there is a rhetorical technique where the person making the argument reduces the subject to something the other person "likes" or "dislikes", or the subject of the discussion to "good" or "bad", in order to make the argument that the opposing position is based on the person's opinion, and thus is flawed. The problem with this is that opinions don't happen in a vacuum - people "like" or "dislike" for reasons, and those reasons can be very much material to the argument. Thus the euphemism is a lie of omission because it focuses on the fact of the other person's dislike while looking to obscure the rationale.
Or to come back to the topic at hand, "we shouldn't prosecute people we consider 'bad' as domestic terrorists" is a position that has merit. "We shouldn't prosecute as domestic terrorists people who actively planned an attempt to overthrow the legitimate government and prevent the lawful transfer of power in a coup - and then executed that plan" is a decidedly weaker position.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:13 PM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
So, the issue is there is a rhetorical technique where the person making the argument reduces the subject to something the other person "likes" or "dislikes", or the subject of the discussion to "good" or "bad", in order to make the argument that the opposing position is based on the person's opinion, and thus is flawed. The problem with this is that opinions don't happen in a vacuum - people "like" or "dislike" for reasons, and those reasons can be very much material to the argument. Thus the euphemism is a lie of omission because it focuses on the fact of the other person's dislike while looking to obscure the rationale.
Or to come back to the topic at hand, "we shouldn't prosecute people we consider 'bad' as domestic terrorists" is a position that has merit. "We shouldn't prosecute as domestic terrorists people who actively planned an attempt to overthrow the legitimate government and prevent the lawful transfer of power in a coup - and then executed that plan" is a decidedly weaker position.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:13 PM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
NoxAeternum thanks, your previous comments click now.
I believe that the prosecutor proved their case for a seditious conspiracy to change the results of the election by stopping the certification of Biden's win. But I do not believe that the prosecutor proved that they planned a specifically violent action in order to do so.
corb, I really haven't followed this case very closely, can you say more on this point?
I'm inclined toward corb's general spirit of caution in using terrorism charges or enhancements in general--I say this as someone who is not trained in the law, just a lefty who hates how the justice system and prison system operate. But if someone said to me, "These Jan. 6 people were engaged in terrorism, as in, political violence intended to coerce a specific political outcome," I'd say well yeah that seems about accurate to me! So I would be curious to hear the perspective that it's not technically proven in the case of the individuals sentenced this week. I'm reflexively a skeptic of that viewpoint but am curious to hear it!
posted by kensington314 at 5:35 PM on September 5, 2023
I believe that the prosecutor proved their case for a seditious conspiracy to change the results of the election by stopping the certification of Biden's win. But I do not believe that the prosecutor proved that they planned a specifically violent action in order to do so.
corb, I really haven't followed this case very closely, can you say more on this point?
I'm inclined toward corb's general spirit of caution in using terrorism charges or enhancements in general--I say this as someone who is not trained in the law, just a lefty who hates how the justice system and prison system operate. But if someone said to me, "These Jan. 6 people were engaged in terrorism, as in, political violence intended to coerce a specific political outcome," I'd say well yeah that seems about accurate to me! So I would be curious to hear the perspective that it's not technically proven in the case of the individuals sentenced this week. I'm reflexively a skeptic of that viewpoint but am curious to hear it!
posted by kensington314 at 5:35 PM on September 5, 2023
And if there was actually an error in law, then appeal it. (I'm sure they will.)
posted by ryanrs at 5:42 PM on September 5, 2023
posted by ryanrs at 5:42 PM on September 5, 2023
I really haven't followed this case very closely, can you say more on this point?
I'll follow up via memail, I think at this point NoxAeternum and I's difference of opinion on what constitutes acceptable discourse and what doesn't runs the risk of derailing the entire thread otherwise.
posted by corb at 6:27 PM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'll follow up via memail, I think at this point NoxAeternum and I's difference of opinion on what constitutes acceptable discourse and what doesn't runs the risk of derailing the entire thread otherwise.
posted by corb at 6:27 PM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I know the process of "becoming white" is a very complicated one in the US, but it's still fascinating to me that the leader of a white supremacist group would be named Enrique Tarrio with mocha skin and nobody in the organization batted an eye.
posted by hippybear at 7:28 PM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 7:28 PM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I know the process of "becoming white" is a very complicated one in the US, but it's still fascinating to me that the leader of a white supremacist group would be named Enrique Tarrio with mocha skin and nobody in the organization batted an eye.
I've been wondering how he'll land in the prison racial categories, if the Proud Boys membership will carry over inside. Years ago I knew a couple of guys who joined the white gangs in the pen even though they weren't what you might call fully Aryan; they explained it as more of an identity/group thing than a genetic identification criteria. So I'm guessing he'll fit in just fine and probably has the right tattoos already.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:51 PM on September 5, 2023
I've been wondering how he'll land in the prison racial categories, if the Proud Boys membership will carry over inside. Years ago I knew a couple of guys who joined the white gangs in the pen even though they weren't what you might call fully Aryan; they explained it as more of an identity/group thing than a genetic identification criteria. So I'm guessing he'll fit in just fine and probably has the right tattoos already.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:51 PM on September 5, 2023
Great headline at Axios: Man accused of restraining officer Fanone joins 1,145 others arrested over Jan. 6 - Sareen Habeshian for Axios:
posted by kristi at 11:31 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Four other men have pleaded guilty to assaulting Fanone, per the Washington Post.I'm glad to see ongoing investigations and arrests.
Among them are Daniel Rodriguez, from Fontana, California, who received a 12-year prison sentence, and Albuquerque Head, from Kingsport, Tennessee, who was sentenced to more than seven years.
posted by kristi at 11:31 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
DeSantis and Ramaswamy Call Proud Boys’ Sentences ‘Excessive’ and ‘Wrong’
The two G.O.P. presidential candidates also floated the idea of pardoning some of the Jan. 6 defendants if they are elected.
To the corbs out there: This is why it was important for these terrorists to be called terrorists, before Republicans would be allowed to give them a voice again.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:21 PM on September 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
The two G.O.P. presidential candidates also floated the idea of pardoning some of the Jan. 6 defendants if they are elected.
To the corbs out there: This is why it was important for these terrorists to be called terrorists, before Republicans would be allowed to give them a voice again.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:21 PM on September 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Words matter.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:26 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:26 PM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Peter Navarro Convicted of Contempt of Congress Over Jan. 6 Subpoena
“I am willing to go to prison to settle this issue, I’m willing to do that,” [Navarro] said. “But I also know that the likelihood of me going to prison is relatively small because we are right on this issue.”
Republicans are emboldened to violate the law because they know they can usurp and corrupt justice whenever they are again put in charge, allowing them to free their extremists from having to serve prison sentences for breaking our shared laws.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:34 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
“I am willing to go to prison to settle this issue, I’m willing to do that,” [Navarro] said. “But I also know that the likelihood of me going to prison is relatively small because we are right on this issue.”
Republicans are emboldened to violate the law because they know they can usurp and corrupt justice whenever they are again put in charge, allowing them to free their extremists from having to serve prison sentences for breaking our shared laws.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:34 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Almost every Republican is a right-wing domestic terrorist functionally acting at the behest of the Russian government. Even the "nice" ones who may not get paid off directly.
When Republicans don't get their way in our legal system, they threaten to overturn it by fiat, once they get put into a position of power where they can affect those changes.
And even if they can't pardon at an executive federal level, they have packed courts and legislative positions so as to affect those changes where any state-level cases can be manipulated into being brought to or otherwise tried at a federal level.
Watch for pardons at all levels for these perpetraitors. Look for the language they will use to call these particular individuals "political prisoners".
Nothing will stop Republicans from trying to let their imprisoned comrades go free, at this juncture. If there was ever a declaration of civil war, it was when Republicans stated that they would set these violent criminals free as a political platform.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:46 PM on September 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
When Republicans don't get their way in our legal system, they threaten to overturn it by fiat, once they get put into a position of power where they can affect those changes.
And even if they can't pardon at an executive federal level, they have packed courts and legislative positions so as to affect those changes where any state-level cases can be manipulated into being brought to or otherwise tried at a federal level.
Watch for pardons at all levels for these perpetraitors. Look for the language they will use to call these particular individuals "political prisoners".
Nothing will stop Republicans from trying to let their imprisoned comrades go free, at this juncture. If there was ever a declaration of civil war, it was when Republicans stated that they would set these violent criminals free as a political platform.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:46 PM on September 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Reporting from The Independent that many Proud Boys members were offered plea deals that they declined in favor of going to trial. These plea deals were for easily half the time they've been sentenced to.
posted by hippybear at 7:29 AM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 7:29 AM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
And now they're acting like their poor decisions are a violation of their rights and they were "punished for going to trial." 17 year old drug dealer doesn't get to make that argument, 45 year old father of three who joined a gang a few years ago certainly doesn't.
posted by Selena777 at 9:45 AM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 9:45 AM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Without going into the merits of these individuals, I will say that the state of prosecutors offering plea deals to 90% of defendants - in many other cases, guilty or innocent - to get out of having to meet the constitutional requirements for trials, with the threat of seeking higher sentences if it goes to trial as a punishment for making it work, is absolutely a problem for the "justice system" in this country. That 17 year old should be able to make that argument, and the world would be a lot better if they did.
Unfortunately, I don't think that their newfound outrage at the dirty little secrets of prosecutor tricks are going to last much past it personally affecting them, nor will the Republican candidates care much after that either. But one can always dream.
posted by corb at 1:31 PM on September 8, 2023
Unfortunately, I don't think that their newfound outrage at the dirty little secrets of prosecutor tricks are going to last much past it personally affecting them, nor will the Republican candidates care much after that either. But one can always dream.
posted by corb at 1:31 PM on September 8, 2023
Reporting from The Independent that many Proud Boys members were offered plea deals that they declined in favor of going to trial.
Nelson: "Ha-ha!"
posted by kirkaracha at 4:26 PM on September 8, 2023
Nelson: "Ha-ha!"
posted by kirkaracha at 4:26 PM on September 8, 2023
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Ho-ho-ho
posted by ryanrs at 8:49 AM on September 4, 2023 [31 favorites]