قهوة and cacahuaatl
September 9, 2023 10:08 AM Subscribe
From the Duolingo Blog: Are any words the same in all languages?
"Exceptions: Mandarin Chinese uses a different word for pineapple."
The pineapple thing is a trope, a regular on the "english wtf r u doin" language-joke circuit, but there's a good answer on the Linguistics section of Stack Overflow that puts a little more work (though the respondent focused only languages with romanized characters) into the answer and breaking it down into sounding like:
posted by mhoye at 10:39 AM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
The pineapple thing is a trope, a regular on the "english wtf r u doin" language-joke circuit, but there's a good answer on the Linguistics section of Stack Overflow that puts a little more work (though the respondent focused only languages with romanized characters) into the answer and breaking it down into sounding like:
- "ananas" (as a general phonetic shape, there's lots of variation in 42 languages
- "piña" or "pineapple" in 10 languages, and
- "ark’ayakhndzor", "bōluó", "sạbpard", "abacaxi", and "dứa" each in one language.
posted by mhoye at 10:39 AM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Pineapple-picked, surely
posted by rebent at 11:08 AM on September 9, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by rebent at 11:08 AM on September 9, 2023 [15 favorites]
The pedant in me wants to note that the Icelandic for taxi is “leigubíll”, with two ells at the end, not one, in the nominative (the single terminal ell version is the accusative and dative form).
Also, “taxi”, exists as a loanword, but it’s considerably rarer than “leigubíll”.
Now, since “leigubíll” is a compound word formed out of “rent” and “car”, some of you might wonder what the word for rental car is, and the answer is that in Icelandic you take the word for car rental, “bílaleiga”, and add “car” to it, for the delightfully tautological “bílaleigubíll”, or car rental car.
posted by Kattullus at 11:16 AM on September 9, 2023 [28 favorites]
Also, “taxi”, exists as a loanword, but it’s considerably rarer than “leigubíll”.
Now, since “leigubíll” is a compound word formed out of “rent” and “car”, some of you might wonder what the word for rental car is, and the answer is that in Icelandic you take the word for car rental, “bílaleiga”, and add “car” to it, for the delightfully tautological “bílaleigubíll”, or car rental car.
posted by Kattullus at 11:16 AM on September 9, 2023 [28 favorites]
If there are any Amharic (or other Ethiopian language) speakers here, I’m happy to be proven wrong, but my impression was that “bunn” or “bunna” is typically used to refer to coffee in Ethiopia—an exception to the “qahwa” rule! According to this Wordreference user, “bunn” is not only still used in Yemen to refer to coffee as a drink (in the rest of the Arab world, it refers to the plant alone), but also to our English-language conception of the coffee fruit as a “bean” [citation needed on this last one].
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:48 AM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:48 AM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
That does add a bit of etymological interest to the vegan Ethiopian joint in Bushwick named Bunna Café!
(Their coffee is really good.)
posted by thecaddy at 12:18 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Their coffee is really good.)
posted by thecaddy at 12:18 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not quite the same question, but No Such Thing as a Fish taught me a nice little fact about lox today.
posted by q*ben at 12:26 PM on September 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by q*ben at 12:26 PM on September 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
Interesting Kattullus! In Swedish we have "lego" which sounds the same and is used I think exclusively in the word for mercenary (n), legosoltat (not a lego soldier).
posted by Iteki at 1:21 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Iteki at 1:21 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
If there were such a word, it would go a long way toward establishing a single origin for all languages, wouldn’t it?
I've gone back and forth over my lifetime in my intuition about whether there was a single origin for language, and right now it’s at a low ebb.
What would really be most thrilling to me would be a discovery that one or more human languages had been significantly influenced by Neanderthal or Denisovan language — which in and of itself wouldn’t rule out a single origin, I suppose. But I can’t see how we would ever be able to demonstrate such a thing short of a time machine.
posted by jamjam at 1:53 PM on September 9, 2023
I've gone back and forth over my lifetime in my intuition about whether there was a single origin for language, and right now it’s at a low ebb.
What would really be most thrilling to me would be a discovery that one or more human languages had been significantly influenced by Neanderthal or Denisovan language — which in and of itself wouldn’t rule out a single origin, I suppose. But I can’t see how we would ever be able to demonstrate such a thing short of a time machine.
posted by jamjam at 1:53 PM on September 9, 2023
“bunn” or “bunna” is typically used to refer to coffee in Ethiopia
A happy coincidence with the Bunn-O-Matic Corporation, US maker of institutional drip coffee machines, named for founder George R. Bunn.
posted by zamboni at 2:06 PM on September 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
A happy coincidence with the Bunn-O-Matic Corporation, US maker of institutional drip coffee machines, named for founder George R. Bunn.
posted by zamboni at 2:06 PM on September 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
They forgot about kiki and bouba.
posted by ockmockbock at 2:07 PM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by ockmockbock at 2:07 PM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Coffee is "soorj" in Armenian.
posted by potrzebie at 2:17 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 2:17 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
jamjam: "If there were such a word, it would go a long way toward establishing a single origin for all languages, wouldn’t it?"
Or a single origin for that one word—like chocolate, tomato, etc.
posted by signal at 2:20 PM on September 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
Or a single origin for that one word—like chocolate, tomato, etc.
posted by signal at 2:20 PM on September 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
jynnan tonnix
gee'N'N-T'N-ix
chinanto/mnigs
tzjin-anthony-ks
jinond-o-nicks
gin and tonics
posted by tclark at 2:31 PM on September 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
gee'N'N-T'N-ix
chinanto/mnigs
tzjin-anthony-ks
jinond-o-nicks
gin and tonics
posted by tclark at 2:31 PM on September 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
As one of your resident linguist spoilsports, I'll remind you that Sign languages are languages too... and signs are silent.
The question of whether there's anything all languages have in common is in fact quite difficult. Even some very vague abstract claims (e.g. "they all have nouns and verbs") turn out to have exceptions or nuances.
posted by zompist at 2:35 PM on September 9, 2023 [14 favorites]
The question of whether there's anything all languages have in common is in fact quite difficult. Even some very vague abstract claims (e.g. "they all have nouns and verbs") turn out to have exceptions or nuances.
posted by zompist at 2:35 PM on September 9, 2023 [14 favorites]
Today, you'll find a form of ananas in Hindi, Arabic, Swahili, and most European languages. Interestingly, both Tupi-origin words are used in Portuguese: Ananás is the word in Portugal, abacaxi is the word in Brazil, and the Portuguese-speaking Azores use both, for different kinds of pineapples!
For the record, continental Portuguese also uses ananás and abacaxi, they refer to two very similar items, both pineapple-like in aspect and flavor, the former slightly larger, the latter slightly sweeter. More here, in Portuguese. Though some argue they are the same thing and that the differences are marketing and/or a conspiracy.
posted by chavenet at 3:12 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
For the record, continental Portuguese also uses ananás and abacaxi, they refer to two very similar items, both pineapple-like in aspect and flavor, the former slightly larger, the latter slightly sweeter. More here, in Portuguese. Though some argue they are the same thing and that the differences are marketing and/or a conspiracy.
posted by chavenet at 3:12 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
One of my Hmong students told me that pineapple (or a word that phonetically sounded just like it) was a curse word in Hmong.
posted by umbú at 3:32 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by umbú at 3:32 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
So apparently in Arabic at least, bunn means coffee beans (and is additionally what the Arabic word for “brown” is derived from). It’s conceivable that another language in the region might have imported that word and used it to refer to the drink too.
Incidentally, Polish uses “herbata” to mean “tea,” though apparently the “-ta” part is cognate with “tea,” so maybe they aren’t an exception there after all.
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:37 PM on September 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Incidentally, Polish uses “herbata” to mean “tea,” though apparently the “-ta” part is cognate with “tea,” so maybe they aren’t an exception there after all.
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:37 PM on September 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
One thing linguists agree upon is that the only truly universal thing across all languages is that foods make excellent names for cats
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:38 PM on September 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:38 PM on September 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
The story of the global commodities trade through everyday words.
Whisky deserves to make this list as well, imho!
posted by plep at 4:39 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Whisky deserves to make this list as well, imho!
posted by plep at 4:39 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
IDK, I might have a hard time calling a cat Pineapple.
posted by Mitheral at 5:27 PM on September 9, 2023
posted by Mitheral at 5:27 PM on September 9, 2023
How about “okay”?
posted by bz at 5:31 PM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by bz at 5:31 PM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Why is no one mentioning "ma"? Also "ba" or "pa"?
posted by gregoreo at 5:39 PM on September 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by gregoreo at 5:39 PM on September 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Speaking of ma and pa, the Quechua word for baby is "wawa" or "guagua".
posted by lukemeister at 5:52 PM on September 9, 2023
posted by lukemeister at 5:52 PM on September 9, 2023
Why is no one mentioning "ma"? Also "ba" or "pa"?
Because LLMs don't have parents.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:04 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Because LLMs don't have parents.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:04 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
lukemeister: "Speaking of ma and pa, the Quechua word for baby is "wawa" or "guagua"."
Guagua is also the word we use in Chilean Spanish, and it's also used in Aymara and Mapudungun.
posted by signal at 8:35 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Guagua is also the word we use in Chilean Spanish, and it's also used in Aymara and Mapudungun.
posted by signal at 8:35 PM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Pepsi" or "Nike" seems likely to be the same in every language.
posted by Pyry at 10:40 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Pyry at 10:40 PM on September 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Zebra" seems to be a good contender for many languages, although I've no idea where the Arabic ("alhimar alwahshiu") comes from.
As others have noted, "papa"/"baba" (for father) seems pretty universal, and "mama" (for mother) similarly. A hint at a pre-human language, perhaps?
And/or an example of the Bouba-Kiki Effect that our collective universal word for mothers uses soft consonants and our one for fathers uses hard consonants, perhaps?
posted by avapoet at 10:51 PM on September 9, 2023
As others have noted, "papa"/"baba" (for father) seems pretty universal, and "mama" (for mother) similarly. A hint at a pre-human language, perhaps?
And/or an example of the Bouba-Kiki Effect that our collective universal word for mothers uses soft consonants and our one for fathers uses hard consonants, perhaps?
posted by avapoet at 10:51 PM on September 9, 2023
The Finnish words for dad and mom are “isä” and “äiti” respectively.
That said, I remember reading some research paper that argues that the first consonants kids are able to form are m and b/p, and parents will assign their sounds to names for themselves, and kids pick that up from their parents, so these words aren’t subject to the normal rules of linguistics.
posted by Kattullus at 10:59 PM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
That said, I remember reading some research paper that argues that the first consonants kids are able to form are m and b/p, and parents will assign their sounds to names for themselves, and kids pick that up from their parents, so these words aren’t subject to the normal rules of linguistics.
posted by Kattullus at 10:59 PM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
there’s also the social phenomenon where children are named by their parents, and grandparents are named by the children
posted by DoctorFedora at 12:19 AM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 12:19 AM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've no idea where the Arabic ("alhimar alwahshiu") comes from
This just means “wild donkey”—according to the animal’s Arabic Wikipedia page, other names include “himaar al-zarad” (maybe from “zarad,” or “coat of mail”?), “al-himaar al-mukhattat” (“(the) striped donkey,” especially popular among children), and “al-himaar al-3attaabii” (“(the) tabby donkey”—see the etymology of “tabby” for more).
But YMMV with dialects—the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia article is simply entitled “ziibraa”!
(The list of Zebra articles in all languages, incidentally, shows a bunch of titles that are not cognate to “zebra,” so it’s probably not a major competitor here.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 6:00 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
This just means “wild donkey”—according to the animal’s Arabic Wikipedia page, other names include “himaar al-zarad” (maybe from “zarad,” or “coat of mail”?), “al-himaar al-mukhattat” (“(the) striped donkey,” especially popular among children), and “al-himaar al-3attaabii” (“(the) tabby donkey”—see the etymology of “tabby” for more).
But YMMV with dialects—the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia article is simply entitled “ziibraa”!
(The list of Zebra articles in all languages, incidentally, shows a bunch of titles that are not cognate to “zebra,” so it’s probably not a major competitor here.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 6:00 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
O.K.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:22 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by leotrotsky at 7:22 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Querido Duolingo:
Cuando las universidades le piden que reemplacer sus programas de idiomas, por favor rechace.
Con mucho amor,
Alejandro
Novecientos ochenta y ocho días
(When universities ask you to replace their language programs, please decline.)
posted by hypnogogue at 8:08 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Cuando las universidades le piden que reemplacer sus programas de idiomas, por favor rechace.
Con mucho amor,
Alejandro
Novecientos ochenta y ocho días
(When universities ask you to replace their language programs, please decline.)
posted by hypnogogue at 8:08 AM on September 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
oh yeah Arabic dialects vary TREMENDOUSLY. Like imagine if newspapers in continental Europe were all written in "Modern Standard Latin."
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:00 PM on September 10, 2023
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:00 PM on September 10, 2023
Interesting that you went for "cacahuatl" in the title. While yes, this does refer to the cacao pod, it's not the Nahuatl word for chocolate and is not the term the Duolingo article references.
"Chocolate" comes from xocoatl, literally "bitter water" (xoco- + atl). The term can be confusing until you remember that chocolate was a drink in Mesoamerica, and that is how it was introduced to Europe. Bars of chocolate came centuries later.
Cacahuatl survives today as the root word for cacao, but is in more common use as the Spanish word for peanut, "cacahuate." This comes from "tlalcacahuatl" meaning "ground/earth cacao pod."
posted by Panjandrum at 5:50 PM on September 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Chocolate" comes from xocoatl, literally "bitter water" (xoco- + atl). The term can be confusing until you remember that chocolate was a drink in Mesoamerica, and that is how it was introduced to Europe. Bars of chocolate came centuries later.
Cacahuatl survives today as the root word for cacao, but is in more common use as the Spanish word for peanut, "cacahuate." This comes from "tlalcacahuatl" meaning "ground/earth cacao pod."
posted by Panjandrum at 5:50 PM on September 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
See I went into this with the same understanding that the most common words would be the oldest, with the deepest roots.
But now I think it's likely that it's the newest, that gets coined then spread, but we dismiss that as a 'loanword' which I don't think is fair. Words move around all the time, and we can't disqualify them just because we're being picky.
Like 'robot', a great word from Czeck, would be my top contender.
posted by Jilder at 9:41 PM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
But now I think it's likely that it's the newest, that gets coined then spread, but we dismiss that as a 'loanword' which I don't think is fair. Words move around all the time, and we can't disqualify them just because we're being picky.
Like 'robot', a great word from Czeck, would be my top contender.
posted by Jilder at 9:41 PM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
In Icelandic “robot” is “vélmenni” (machine-man), and if the robot isn’t man-like then the prefix “vél” is used with whatever is most appropriate.
posted by Kattullus at 12:11 AM on September 11, 2023
posted by Kattullus at 12:11 AM on September 11, 2023
I suppose to do my due diligence I should mention there's a bit of debate over cacahuatl vs xocoatl usage, as the latter is better attested to in peri-Conquest Nahuatl sources. Regardless, the adoption of xocoatl by the Spanish is how chocolate was introduced to the rest of the world.
posted by Panjandrum at 2:34 AM on September 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Panjandrum at 2:34 AM on September 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Katullus: In Icelandic “robot” is “vélmenni”...
Due to Iceland's linguistic purity program, I suspect there will always be an Icelandic exception to any attempt to find a universal or near-universal word.
posted by vacapinta at 6:11 AM on September 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Due to Iceland's linguistic purity program, I suspect there will always be an Icelandic exception to any attempt to find a universal or near-universal word.
posted by vacapinta at 6:11 AM on September 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
In this particular case it’s because “robot” doesn’t mesh well with Icelandic grammar. In a related case, the loanword “bot” became “botti”, which works well, and so the neologism “þjarkur” seems to have lost out. Purism is policy, but policy isn’t language. I’ll note that even before it was policy, it was practice in Iceland, that words which didn’t have obvious routes to being Icelandicized, lost out to neologisms.
That said, yeah, cultures with a rich tradition of linguistic neologism, like in Iceland, will tend to be outliers.
posted by Kattullus at 6:38 AM on September 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
That said, yeah, cultures with a rich tradition of linguistic neologism, like in Iceland, will tend to be outliers.
posted by Kattullus at 6:38 AM on September 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I hate to be a linguistic spoilsport (I love that phrase, zompist), but I can come up with dozens of other words that are (most probably) the same in all languages - stethoscope (and most other "scopes" - microscope, telescope, periscope), mafia (possibly?), agoraphobia (and most other phobias), observatory, computer, etc. etc. Strange, that not even a nod was given to the internationalization of scientific language that actually goes way back (first use of "Telescope" in English - 1650. First use of "Taxi" - 1907).
edited - according to google translate - "periscope" is "periscope" in Icelandic, and "mafia" is "mafían". Ha!
posted by Dotty at 12:37 PM on September 11, 2023
edited - according to google translate - "periscope" is "periscope" in Icelandic, and "mafia" is "mafían". Ha!
posted by Dotty at 12:37 PM on September 11, 2023
Sorry, in Icelandic it’s “sjónpípa” (vision pipe, literally).
And I’m not sure mafia counts because it’s a proper noun.
Incidentally, if you want other languages to check against, Japanese and Vietnamese both have rich traditions of forming neologisms.
posted by Kattullus at 1:38 PM on September 11, 2023
And I’m not sure mafia counts because it’s a proper noun.
Incidentally, if you want other languages to check against, Japanese and Vietnamese both have rich traditions of forming neologisms.
posted by Kattullus at 1:38 PM on September 11, 2023
It’s not much of a trick finding words that are the same in Indo-European languages. Try putting those into google translate for non indo-European languages such as Hebrew, Cantonese, Mandarin, or Vietnamese.
posted by bq at 3:58 PM on September 11, 2023
posted by bq at 3:58 PM on September 11, 2023
Every language I tried for "covid" in Google Translate returns either "covid" or something that is a cognate of "corona", and "covid" is derived from "corona", soooooo....
Oh, but there's one tiny little exception: Chinese. I found this in Google and it seems to be telling me that in China the various terms tend to be based on the chinese word for "crown" that doesn't look like a cognate to me.
So I propose that to get a word into almost every language you simply need to grab the entire world's attention for a year or more and beat it into submission.
posted by polecat at 6:24 PM on September 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh, but there's one tiny little exception: Chinese. I found this in Google and it seems to be telling me that in China the various terms tend to be based on the chinese word for "crown" that doesn't look like a cognate to me.
So I propose that to get a word into almost every language you simply need to grab the entire world's attention for a year or more and beat it into submission.
posted by polecat at 6:24 PM on September 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I do sort of feel like "Chinese doesn't use it as a loanword" is kind of a cheat, because Chinese by its nature tends to calque almost exclusively
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:23 PM on September 11, 2023
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:23 PM on September 11, 2023
It's typical of English that "calque" is a loanword and "loanword" is a calque.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:42 PM on September 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:42 PM on September 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Incidentally, if you want other languages to check against, Japanese and Vietnamese both have rich traditions of forming neologisms.
Japanese is full of loanwords that are in common use. Its just that they write them with a different alphabet. Coffee for example is コーヒー pronounced like 'kōhii' and bread is usually パン which is 'pan' from either the Portuguese or Spanish word for bread.
posted by vacapinta at 1:56 AM on September 12, 2023
Japanese is full of loanwords that are in common use. Its just that they write them with a different alphabet. Coffee for example is コーヒー pronounced like 'kōhii' and bread is usually パン which is 'pan' from either the Portuguese or Spanish word for bread.
posted by vacapinta at 1:56 AM on September 12, 2023
Well yes, Icelandic has plenty of loanwords that are in common use, for example "kaffi" and "fax" for "coffee" and "fax". My point wasn't that there are no loanwords in Japanese, but that Japanese-speakers have a tradition of creating neologisms that goes back centuries.
posted by Kattullus at 5:45 AM on September 12, 2023
posted by Kattullus at 5:45 AM on September 12, 2023
Dotty: " dozens of other words that are (most probably) the same in all languages -…, computer, etc. etc. …"
In the Spain variant of Spanish, computer is ordenador, which apparently comes from the French ordinateur.
posted by signal at 9:31 AM on September 12, 2023
In the Spain variant of Spanish, computer is ordenador, which apparently comes from the French ordinateur.
posted by signal at 9:31 AM on September 12, 2023
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posted by Dr. Curare at 10:30 AM on September 9, 2023 [3 favorites]