Weed the North
October 17, 2023 8:37 AM Subscribe
Today marks 5 years of legal cannabis in Canada Abi Roach, one of the original OGs of cannabis consumption pre-legal weed, is worried that the policy constraints and industry response will throttle the legal market and its growth.
Official Legislative Act review of the Cannabis Act (years overdue to due to COVID).
Observations from the review:
Excess taxes are choking the LPs, especially the smaller ones.
The cannabis industry is tightly controlled on how they can market and advertise (as compared to the alcohol ads everywhere).
Health Canada agrees that we should finally lift the cap on edibles, but there is resistance from healthcare providers.
The legal market is outperforming the illegal one, but with the restriction of high THC products, it's unlikely to go away.
There is severe unequality in how dispensaries are licensed; BiPOC folks don't have access to same capital that white folks do, and their communities were the most affected by prohibition.
The current expungement act for offenders needs to be changed or more accessible for those affected. The current policy puts onus and money on those wishing to have their records expunged.
Medical studies involving cannabis are mostly nonexistent, due to cannabis not having a DIN from Health Canada.
Official Legislative Act review of the Cannabis Act (years overdue to due to COVID).
Observations from the review:
Excess taxes are choking the LPs, especially the smaller ones.
The cannabis industry is tightly controlled on how they can market and advertise (as compared to the alcohol ads everywhere).
Health Canada agrees that we should finally lift the cap on edibles, but there is resistance from healthcare providers.
The legal market is outperforming the illegal one, but with the restriction of high THC products, it's unlikely to go away.
There is severe unequality in how dispensaries are licensed; BiPOC folks don't have access to same capital that white folks do, and their communities were the most affected by prohibition.
The current expungement act for offenders needs to be changed or more accessible for those affected. The current policy puts onus and money on those wishing to have their records expunged.
Medical studies involving cannabis are mostly nonexistent, due to cannabis not having a DIN from Health Canada.
All the handwringing scenarios of doom and gloom did not come to pass. I'll be honest, when I see that hospitalizations for children went up to due to the ingestion of edibles, I'd be willing to bet hard cash that those were black market ones. Frankly, given the current state of cannabis packaging for all legal products, not even goddamn adults can open those without some help. God help you if you have dexterity issues or are physically disabled in some capacity to open them. If the industry won't at least remedy that for recreational, they should be definitely do it for the medical side. Cannabis patients don't need to face a frustrating obstacle to access the plant.
*full disclosure: I work as a cannabis educator and currently sit on the board of CWIC (Canadian Women in Cannabis), so I have a very invested stake in reform, especially as it pertains to non-white folks and women wanting to be part of the industry.
posted by Kitteh at 8:55 AM on October 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
*full disclosure: I work as a cannabis educator and currently sit on the board of CWIC (Canadian Women in Cannabis), so I have a very invested stake in reform, especially as it pertains to non-white folks and women wanting to be part of the industry.
posted by Kitteh at 8:55 AM on October 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
Frankly, given the current state of cannabis packaging for all legal products, not even goddamn adults can open those without some help. God help you if you have dexterity issues or are physically disabled in some capacity to open them. I
We bought some recently that were specifically labeled/marketed as being for people with joint pain and similar symptoms. The container, however, was extremely hard to open even for me, a person with no joint pain or other physical limitations. I get that there are rules, but the packaging doesn't have to be that bad.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:58 AM on October 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
We bought some recently that were specifically labeled/marketed as being for people with joint pain and similar symptoms. The container, however, was extremely hard to open even for me, a person with no joint pain or other physical limitations. I get that there are rules, but the packaging doesn't have to be that bad.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:58 AM on October 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
packaging doesn't have to be that bad
I buy a brand that comes in a puzzle-box difficulty plastic container. I have found, however, that smashing the container against my concrete steps is an effective opening technique.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:09 AM on October 17, 2023
I buy a brand that comes in a puzzle-box difficulty plastic container. I have found, however, that smashing the container against my concrete steps is an effective opening technique.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:09 AM on October 17, 2023
Yeah. I joke that often these products are in stoner proof packaging. Can't comment too much as not sure the state of WA industry. But I'm certainly enjoying it's legality
posted by AngelWuff at 9:28 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by AngelWuff at 9:28 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
My favorites are the ziplock baggies that look like they should open right up when you pull the two tabs but no there's a secret little slit a little lower that you have to pull instead. I found myself questioning my intelligence and sanity one night trying to get to a gummy trapped inside one of those things.
posted by vverse23 at 9:32 AM on October 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by vverse23 at 9:32 AM on October 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Sitting on the beach at English Bay I nearly gave my three-pack case of pre-rolls to the crows smashing things on the ground to get them open
posted by avocet at 10:23 AM on October 17, 2023
posted by avocet at 10:23 AM on October 17, 2023
'll be honest, when I see that hospitalizations for children went up to due to the ingestion of edibles, I'd be willing to bet hard cash that those were black market ones
Could simply be that there's less stigma around it, it's a legal substance now. It's still a horrible parenting fail when it happens due to parent negligence, but it doesn't involve an illegal substance so it's probably more likely than parent will go seek medical help. This is good, we don't want parent to make their child tough it out because they're afraid.
Statistics Canada has their own report.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:09 AM on October 17, 2023
Could simply be that there's less stigma around it, it's a legal substance now. It's still a horrible parenting fail when it happens due to parent negligence, but it doesn't involve an illegal substance so it's probably more likely than parent will go seek medical help. This is good, we don't want parent to make their child tough it out because they're afraid.
Statistics Canada has their own report.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:09 AM on October 17, 2023
This post title is excellent.
posted by beepbeepboopboop at 11:19 AM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by beepbeepboopboop at 11:19 AM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Could simply be that there's less stigma around it
As someone who works in advocacy and education in the cannabis sector, I can assure you there isn't less stigma. Less stigma would mean we stop making legal cannabis look shady and furtive--all stores in Ontario have to have frosted glass or some other partition so people cannot see products from outside--and allow LPs advertise like alcohol makers do. I can see billboards and marketing for booze every place but god forbid we do the same for advertising cannabis products. You can go into a liquor store and buy as much booze as you want, but we cap the cannabis purchases at 30 grams. We infantilize legal purchasers as well as put dispensary employees at risk with the current storefront restrictions. So yes, cannabis is legal here in Canada but the government and provinces still treat the industry like a pariah.
Even people who are interested in trying it for the first time don't want to go into a dispensary because they are embarrassed. Years of prohibition still impacts so many people. It's okay to drink a lot but you use weed? EW.
posted by Kitteh at 11:43 AM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
As someone who works in advocacy and education in the cannabis sector, I can assure you there isn't less stigma. Less stigma would mean we stop making legal cannabis look shady and furtive--all stores in Ontario have to have frosted glass or some other partition so people cannot see products from outside--and allow LPs advertise like alcohol makers do. I can see billboards and marketing for booze every place but god forbid we do the same for advertising cannabis products. You can go into a liquor store and buy as much booze as you want, but we cap the cannabis purchases at 30 grams. We infantilize legal purchasers as well as put dispensary employees at risk with the current storefront restrictions. So yes, cannabis is legal here in Canada but the government and provinces still treat the industry like a pariah.
Even people who are interested in trying it for the first time don't want to go into a dispensary because they are embarrassed. Years of prohibition still impacts so many people. It's okay to drink a lot but you use weed? EW.
posted by Kitteh at 11:43 AM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
As someone who smokes weed and drinks, I'd be fine not seeing ads for either.
posted by Dark Messiah at 11:48 AM on October 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Dark Messiah at 11:48 AM on October 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
all stores in Ontario have to have frosted glass or some other partition
I believe this is a national regulation. However...
put dispensary employees at risk with the current storefront restrictions
This is a big issue and some shops in my city openly violate the rules about exterior visibility for exactly this reason. One shop owner, in particular, publicly stated that he was removing the frosted window treatment after his staff were robbed multiple times by people who knew they could simply walk in and do as they pleased, since no one would be able to look through a window and see what was happening.
posted by asnider at 11:54 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I believe this is a national regulation. However...
put dispensary employees at risk with the current storefront restrictions
This is a big issue and some shops in my city openly violate the rules about exterior visibility for exactly this reason. One shop owner, in particular, publicly stated that he was removing the frosted window treatment after his staff were robbed multiple times by people who knew they could simply walk in and do as they pleased, since no one would be able to look through a window and see what was happening.
posted by asnider at 11:54 AM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
That store owner has the right idea. It's not fair to put the employees' lives at risk.
posted by Kitteh at 11:55 AM on October 17, 2023
posted by Kitteh at 11:55 AM on October 17, 2023
Kitteh, wrong word maybe, but this still went from illegal to legal, to me that removes a-lot/some of the stresses of showing up at the hospital for a cannabis related problem.
From a Qc, perspective you're right it's a double standard.
I frequently receive emails through the fidelity program of our state owned monopoly on alcohol. The shops allow you in without being carded, will only card you when paying if you look youngish
(big bushy beard with gray streaks takes care of that for me), often have samplers for you to taste and they run promos on TV and radio. And age limit is 18.
In contrario the cannabis store cards everybody, no exceptions, then the security guard will buzz you in, then you wait for a clerk. There are no promos, no marketing, no samplers. It's a nice store, but very clinical. Age limit is 21. Not exactly sure how the security guard the fact it's state owned, plays with the robbery aspect.
I think we're trying to do for cannabis what we recognize we should have done for alcohol, make it available for a variety of public health, financial and social reasons but not glamorize it or build artificial attraction to it.
And we're both too far gone into promotion of alcohol right now and too coy about cannabis, but promoting cannabis as we promote alcool seems like we'd have learned the wrong lesson from all this. Also, according to my elders, the first state owned alcool stores were quite bleak, nothing like what we have now, so lets give it some time.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 12:25 PM on October 17, 2023
From a Qc, perspective you're right it's a double standard.
I frequently receive emails through the fidelity program of our state owned monopoly on alcohol. The shops allow you in without being carded, will only card you when paying if you look youngish
(big bushy beard with gray streaks takes care of that for me), often have samplers for you to taste and they run promos on TV and radio. And age limit is 18.
In contrario the cannabis store cards everybody, no exceptions, then the security guard will buzz you in, then you wait for a clerk. There are no promos, no marketing, no samplers. It's a nice store, but very clinical. Age limit is 21. Not exactly sure how the security guard the fact it's state owned, plays with the robbery aspect.
I think we're trying to do for cannabis what we recognize we should have done for alcohol, make it available for a variety of public health, financial and social reasons but not glamorize it or build artificial attraction to it.
And we're both too far gone into promotion of alcohol right now and too coy about cannabis, but promoting cannabis as we promote alcool seems like we'd have learned the wrong lesson from all this. Also, according to my elders, the first state owned alcool stores were quite bleak, nothing like what we have now, so lets give it some time.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 12:25 PM on October 17, 2023
Ooh, do your stores have security guards? Ours don't, but QC opted for the provincially run model, instead of the different businesses we have here (I mean, all ON dispos buy from the same provider: Ontario Cannabis Store). I can only speak for the ones in Ontario, but we got some nice ass stores that are not at all bleak. QC is a booze heavy province so I am not surprised they are so restrictive. The fact that y'all and Manitoba can't grow your own is ridiculous.
I stand by the fact they should be allowed to market as alcohol does, or alcohol needs to be restricted too.
posted by Kitteh at 12:34 PM on October 17, 2023
I stand by the fact they should be allowed to market as alcohol does, or alcohol needs to be restricted too.
posted by Kitteh at 12:34 PM on October 17, 2023
I live near Manhattan in the U.S. and it's been legal in my state for more than a year and the dispensaries are VERY slow to appear. I still have to drive 45 mins to get to a dispensary, and then I can buy 1/4 of the amount I could buy if I drove an hour in the other direction into Massachusetts. There are a handful of "collectives" that have popped up that sell cannabis for half the price of the dispensaries. They are like little weed farmer's markets, and I prefer this over the dispensaries. There's something legal-adjacent about it -- they call themselves clubs and you have to register as a club member to make your "donation" when you show up. I've noticed there are small storefronts popping up in Manhattan now that they ran out the mobile vans that parked on the streets. I just recently bought some pre-rolls in Manhattan from a small storefront that I was buzzed into. Very limited selection but I'm too old to be meeting strangers in a CVS parking lot anymore and looking over my shoulder constantly.
All of this to say your southern neighbors are dealing with the same red tape and nonsense.
posted by archimago at 12:41 PM on October 17, 2023
All of this to say your southern neighbors are dealing with the same red tape and nonsense.
posted by archimago at 12:41 PM on October 17, 2023
Not entirely. Our cannabis vendors can use real banks instead of having massive amounts of cash on hand, we have fully legalized nationally--the US is a patchwork of legality--and you can't move for all the new cannabis stores opening. Once the first one opened here in Kingston in 2017, within three months, there were three new ones within a few blocks of each other and they keep coming.
Our biggest issues involve equality, taxes, edible cap limits, and having too many weed stores.
posted by Kitteh at 12:53 PM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Our biggest issues involve equality, taxes, edible cap limits, and having too many weed stores.
posted by Kitteh at 12:53 PM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ooh, do your stores have security guards?
They're all on the same design, and they all do. The fact is state owned kinda allows for some stores to be no fully profitable, as long as the whole operation is, the mandate is respected. So that's at least that. It's kinda like a very quiet/low-key LCBO but for cannabis.
I can only speak for the ones in Ontario, but we got some nice ass stores that are not at all bleak.
They're not bleak, that was the old liquor commission stores, they're just very.... I don't know.... clinical? Especially compared to more recent and nicer SAQ stores.
QC is a booze heavy province so I am not surprised they are so restrictive. The fact that y'all and Manitoba can't grow your own is ridiculous.
We lead the country for wine, in the average for beer, lowest for hard liquor. According to the stats can data we have the lowest cannabis consumption. Which I would not have figured, considering how much of it I smelled in the streets both before and after legalization.
It could be done otherwise especially the limit on growing, which makes no sense considering how impractical this is to enforce, but this all came to pass while we had a somewhat conservative provincial government, it'll take time for this change.
Also the 21 yo age limit is completely bonkers since the alcohol age limit is 18 yo, and to attempt this for the age where young adults have the biggest networks available to get cannabis from the black market... it seems deeply stupid.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:19 PM on October 17, 2023
They're all on the same design, and they all do. The fact is state owned kinda allows for some stores to be no fully profitable, as long as the whole operation is, the mandate is respected. So that's at least that. It's kinda like a very quiet/low-key LCBO but for cannabis.
I can only speak for the ones in Ontario, but we got some nice ass stores that are not at all bleak.
They're not bleak, that was the old liquor commission stores, they're just very.... I don't know.... clinical? Especially compared to more recent and nicer SAQ stores.
QC is a booze heavy province so I am not surprised they are so restrictive. The fact that y'all and Manitoba can't grow your own is ridiculous.
We lead the country for wine, in the average for beer, lowest for hard liquor. According to the stats can data we have the lowest cannabis consumption. Which I would not have figured, considering how much of it I smelled in the streets both before and after legalization.
It could be done otherwise especially the limit on growing, which makes no sense considering how impractical this is to enforce, but this all came to pass while we had a somewhat conservative provincial government, it'll take time for this change.
Also the 21 yo age limit is completely bonkers since the alcohol age limit is 18 yo, and to attempt this for the age where young adults have the biggest networks available to get cannabis from the black market... it seems deeply stupid.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:19 PM on October 17, 2023
Also the 21 yo age limit is completely bonkers since the alcohol age limit is 18 yo, and to attempt this for the age where young adults have the biggest networks available to get cannabis from the black market... it seems deeply stupid.
As I recall, there is some medical research supporting the idea of 21 (brain development and such), but given the feds' primary argument for legalization being to combat the black market and make it more difficult for children to access cannabis, Quebec's decision to stick with a legal age of 21 is certainly odd.
Would it better if no one used cannabis before the age of 21? Research says: probably, yes. Is that realistic? Not really! At least not while a black market continues to thrive.
posted by asnider at 2:09 PM on October 17, 2023
As I recall, there is some medical research supporting the idea of 21 (brain development and such), but given the feds' primary argument for legalization being to combat the black market and make it more difficult for children to access cannabis, Quebec's decision to stick with a legal age of 21 is certainly odd.
Would it better if no one used cannabis before the age of 21? Research says: probably, yes. Is that realistic? Not really! At least not while a black market continues to thrive.
posted by asnider at 2:09 PM on October 17, 2023
We lead the country for wine, in the average for beer, lowest for hard liquor. According to the stats can data we have the lowest cannabis consumption. Which I would not have figured, considering how much of it I smelled in the streets both before and after legalizati
Yup. And I legitimately imagine that having such high alcohol consumption is much more profitable and respectable than weed. I lived in Sherbrooke for five years so I am aware of how much QC loves the booze. It is a boozy boozy province.
I don't think QC raising the age limit for cannabis instead of having it be the same is an accident. Quebec is incredibly restrictive in their cannabis offerings compared to other provinces. IIRC, vape carts are prohibited, and edibles must be "healthy." (Lotsa dried fruit and energy balls, etc.) I think they would much rather have people drink than ingest cannabis. You can go anywhere to get alcohol and socialize, but you can't do that with weed.* Alcohol is looped into celebration/mourning/etc.
*I so badly want any province to pass the creation of cannabis lounges. I would love to go somewhere and drink coffee and have a toke.
Would it better if no one used cannabis before the age of 21? Research says: probably, yes. Is that realistic? Not really! At least not while a black market continues to thrive
I agree, actually. Your brain doesn't finish fully forming until your early 20s. But most teenagers are gonna experiment with weed. It's practically a rite of passage. At least if you can legally buy at 18, you know that your weed won't be laced with some other shit.
posted by Kitteh at 2:41 PM on October 17, 2023
Yup. And I legitimately imagine that having such high alcohol consumption is much more profitable and respectable than weed. I lived in Sherbrooke for five years so I am aware of how much QC loves the booze. It is a boozy boozy province.
I don't think QC raising the age limit for cannabis instead of having it be the same is an accident. Quebec is incredibly restrictive in their cannabis offerings compared to other provinces. IIRC, vape carts are prohibited, and edibles must be "healthy." (Lotsa dried fruit and energy balls, etc.) I think they would much rather have people drink than ingest cannabis. You can go anywhere to get alcohol and socialize, but you can't do that with weed.* Alcohol is looped into celebration/mourning/etc.
*I so badly want any province to pass the creation of cannabis lounges. I would love to go somewhere and drink coffee and have a toke.
Would it better if no one used cannabis before the age of 21? Research says: probably, yes. Is that realistic? Not really! At least not while a black market continues to thrive
I agree, actually. Your brain doesn't finish fully forming until your early 20s. But most teenagers are gonna experiment with weed. It's practically a rite of passage. At least if you can legally buy at 18, you know that your weed won't be laced with some other shit.
posted by Kitteh at 2:41 PM on October 17, 2023
Asnider, I’m not sure how they ranked their reasons but for sure eliminating the black market was one of them.
I’m very much pro research and telling it how it is, and it looks like waiting longer before starting your cannabis consumption is a good idea for brain development, and that’s how they presented this choice. Absent a black market I could see the logic, but like we’re both saying it not really stopping anybody just steering towards the black market which is not logical.
And personally this was THE age where finding black market cannabis was trivial, and legal cannabis hasn’t killed this market yet.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:44 PM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m very much pro research and telling it how it is, and it looks like waiting longer before starting your cannabis consumption is a good idea for brain development, and that’s how they presented this choice. Absent a black market I could see the logic, but like we’re both saying it not really stopping anybody just steering towards the black market which is not logical.
And personally this was THE age where finding black market cannabis was trivial, and legal cannabis hasn’t killed this market yet.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:44 PM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
As I recall, there is some medical research supporting the idea of 21 (brain development and such)
There is definitely research suggesting that cannabis use by young teenagers, younger than maybe 17-18, isn’t great for brain development, but I’m not sure I’ve actually seen anyone even attempting to study directly whether it’s more harmful to use it at 18 vs. 21. I’m not sure there’s actually a concrete answer to “when is brain development complete” in general.
posted by atoxyl at 4:04 PM on October 17, 2023
There is definitely research suggesting that cannabis use by young teenagers, younger than maybe 17-18, isn’t great for brain development, but I’m not sure I’ve actually seen anyone even attempting to study directly whether it’s more harmful to use it at 18 vs. 21. I’m not sure there’s actually a concrete answer to “when is brain development complete” in general.
posted by atoxyl at 4:04 PM on October 17, 2023
> As I recall, there is some medical research supporting the idea of 21 (brain development and such)
I don't know about the study, but I definitely waited until I was 18-20ish before I ever even tried cannabis. And I know you all know I'm a huge fan of iit. As an anecdotal data point of one I'm glad I did, but *shrug* who knows if it even matters.
As for growing? Yeah, people should just be allowed to grow for personal use. In legal states the ability and profit motivation to do a black market indoor or outdoor grow are basically over. You used to be able to make some decent money doing an indoor "sea of green" hydro or soil grow - with, say, 50-200 plants or so - by focusing on a quality product and maximum yield.
Those days are gone because there's just not enough financial reward to distribute cannabis in the traditional ways where it ends up at "I Know A Guy" acting as the retailer.
And, frankly, I really, really don't miss any of that. I deeply appreciate their service but to be honest I don't miss having to pretend to be someone's best friend and watch them play XBox for an hour or two or listen to bad white boy reggae, because everything about that was awkward and lame for everyone. And that's before you address issues like they might be dealing much more harmful and legally risky drugs as well.
But in my experience, one of the side effects of legalization in many places seems to be no one really cares if you grow a few plants or a few dozen plants even in fairly strictly regulated state like Washington State. Like you'd basically have to start up a full sized commercial operation to attract the attention of WA states Liquor and Cannabis Control Board for bootlegging, and I'm not even sure what they'd charge you with except maybe tax evasion.
While it's not actually legal, it's pretty much defacto legal to grow a few plants in your garden simply because no one cares, and there's a lot of random people who are now interested in growing some just as a hobby and for personal use in the same way people like to grow tomatoes even though it's cheaper to go to a store or farmer's market and just buy tomatoes.
And the delightful side effect of all of that for me personally is people just keep giving me weed. It's like people keep growing too much and don't know what to do with it and they remember they know me or a friend says something that they know someone that would like some, so people just keep randomly giving me jars or food storage containers of nicely groomed and cured flower like they're sharing some freshly baked cookies.
Which I have to say is pretty nice.
posted by loquacious at 5:01 PM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know about the study, but I definitely waited until I was 18-20ish before I ever even tried cannabis. And I know you all know I'm a huge fan of iit. As an anecdotal data point of one I'm glad I did, but *shrug* who knows if it even matters.
As for growing? Yeah, people should just be allowed to grow for personal use. In legal states the ability and profit motivation to do a black market indoor or outdoor grow are basically over. You used to be able to make some decent money doing an indoor "sea of green" hydro or soil grow - with, say, 50-200 plants or so - by focusing on a quality product and maximum yield.
Those days are gone because there's just not enough financial reward to distribute cannabis in the traditional ways where it ends up at "I Know A Guy" acting as the retailer.
And, frankly, I really, really don't miss any of that. I deeply appreciate their service but to be honest I don't miss having to pretend to be someone's best friend and watch them play XBox for an hour or two or listen to bad white boy reggae, because everything about that was awkward and lame for everyone. And that's before you address issues like they might be dealing much more harmful and legally risky drugs as well.
But in my experience, one of the side effects of legalization in many places seems to be no one really cares if you grow a few plants or a few dozen plants even in fairly strictly regulated state like Washington State. Like you'd basically have to start up a full sized commercial operation to attract the attention of WA states Liquor and Cannabis Control Board for bootlegging, and I'm not even sure what they'd charge you with except maybe tax evasion.
While it's not actually legal, it's pretty much defacto legal to grow a few plants in your garden simply because no one cares, and there's a lot of random people who are now interested in growing some just as a hobby and for personal use in the same way people like to grow tomatoes even though it's cheaper to go to a store or farmer's market and just buy tomatoes.
And the delightful side effect of all of that for me personally is people just keep giving me weed. It's like people keep growing too much and don't know what to do with it and they remember they know me or a friend says something that they know someone that would like some, so people just keep randomly giving me jars or food storage containers of nicely groomed and cured flower like they're sharing some freshly baked cookies.
Which I have to say is pretty nice.
posted by loquacious at 5:01 PM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know about the study, but I definitely waited until I was 18-20ish before I ever even tried cannabis. And I know you all know I'm a huge fan of iit. As an anecdotal data point of one I'm glad I did, but *shrug* who knows if it even matters.
I'm of an age where it was Nancy Reagan telling us to not smoke weed. I ignored her and I feel like I'm mostly fine these days. Whatever the impact is, it isn't catastrophic.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:21 PM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm of an age where it was Nancy Reagan telling us to not smoke weed. I ignored her and I feel like I'm mostly fine these days. Whatever the impact is, it isn't catastrophic.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:21 PM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
With due respect for the rank and file of the weed industry, I am pleased that the big companies are struggling. The decriminalization scheme appears to have been optimized for a pump-and-dump investment operation. Big investors in the know made their money, while all the self-employed artisanal growers lost their livelihood. And, in the companies' drive for legitimacy, former drug warriors who made careers out of sending potheads to jail were rewarded with lucrative directorships with the companies. In other words, the side that lost the war on drugs ended up profiting the most.
My hope is that the big companies dwindle to become purveyors of a generic product for a middling-sized market of indiscriminating customers. And that unlicensed artisanal growers of refined strains of weed can recover their livelihoods by supplying smaller markets of local, discerning customers.
posted by SnowRottie at 5:30 PM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
My hope is that the big companies dwindle to become purveyors of a generic product for a middling-sized market of indiscriminating customers. And that unlicensed artisanal growers of refined strains of weed can recover their livelihoods by supplying smaller markets of local, discerning customers.
posted by SnowRottie at 5:30 PM on October 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
And I am surprised that Quebec averages low on weed consumption. Almost every Quebecer I know smokes weed, but I can't say that about any other province.
posted by SnowRottie at 5:36 PM on October 17, 2023
posted by SnowRottie at 5:36 PM on October 17, 2023
I'm of an age where it was Nancy Reagan telling us to not smoke weed. I ignored her and I feel like I'm mostly fine these days. Whatever the impact is, it isn't catastrophic.
As all things it’s probably all in the dosage. Smoking a bit of cannabis once in a while is probably not meaningful, smoking everyday and the increased tolerance that goes with it that allows you to smoke more might be more meaningful. Story goes that cannabis in the 80s was much less potent than was is sold now, this is probably another factor.
There’s an another part to this where even if it doesn’t affect your brain long term THC seems to have an effect on sleep quality (shorter REM phases), and that by itself can lead to various issues.
Now if you drank till you felt drunk everyday it would also have adverse effects whatever the age, education and resources for those who need help is still key.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:02 PM on October 17, 2023
As all things it’s probably all in the dosage. Smoking a bit of cannabis once in a while is probably not meaningful, smoking everyday and the increased tolerance that goes with it that allows you to smoke more might be more meaningful. Story goes that cannabis in the 80s was much less potent than was is sold now, this is probably another factor.
There’s an another part to this where even if it doesn’t affect your brain long term THC seems to have an effect on sleep quality (shorter REM phases), and that by itself can lead to various issues.
Now if you drank till you felt drunk everyday it would also have adverse effects whatever the age, education and resources for those who need help is still key.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:02 PM on October 17, 2023
It would be educational to compare the Conservative Party's fearmongering with the actual outcomes. One question was about impaired driving, and I don't think it has been a huge issue? Given the trend of monstrous SUVs & trucks that render kids (invisible), it might be hard to distinguish that effect on overall road safety...
posted by anthill at 7:02 PM on October 17, 2023
posted by anthill at 7:02 PM on October 17, 2023
Yup. And I legitimately imagine that having such high alcohol consumption is much more profitable and respectable than weed. I lived in Sherbrooke for five years so I am aware of how much QC loves the booze. It is a boozy boozy province.
We sure love wine, and there’s not really a stigma around its consumption in reasonable quantities.
The Qc government went into this quite grudgingly, this clearly was something they HAD to do, not something they wanted to do. It’s still wrapped in a lot of ´think of the children’ arguments. For example the limit on growing at home is justified by the fact it could give easy access to cannabis to kids, the edibles being quite unique choices, for example dehydrated cauliflower, again it’s justified by not having attractive sweet edibles kids can eat inadvertently.
Not allowing easy/accidental access to cannabis to kids is a worthy goal, but education/parental responsibility is key, not banning gummies. It’s like they think you can’t make edibles at home from flower/oil. You won’t be doing nano infusions or CO2 extractions but there’s still a wide range of easy possibilities and your cookies/brownies/gummies may not come with correct labeling, safe storage or known dosage and we’re back where it all started about access.
Preventing access to plants, that’s where parental responsibility kicks in, do what’s right in your situation, some people choose not to have kids, why shouldn’t they be allowed to grow their own? This is no more an issue in Qc than in Ontario or BC, they just took every out they could take. It’s not really enforced but selective enforcement of laws always ends up being a force for inequality.
For the vape cartridges, there’s an old unfavorable advisory note from the province’s public health agency for those. Could change, but on the other hand the province is banning flavors from
nicotine vapes this month because it’s too popular with kids and instead of vaping to get off cigarettes people are going straight into vaping.
And the elephant in the room is that you can mail order it from the other provinces, drive to the next one for a bit of shopping (not always practical), or go to an Indian reserve that has decided that it’s ok to sell and buy all those things. So access is reduced but far from eliminated.
I think they would much rather have people drink than ingest cannabis. You can go anywhere to get alcohol and socialize, but you can't do that with weed.* Alcohol is looped into celebration/mourning/etc.
*I so badly want any province to pass the creation of cannabis lounges. I would love to go somewhere and drink coffee and have a toke.
While I’ll admit vape cartridges and vaporizing flower are quite discrete vs smoking herb (or god forbid cigarettes) I do not miss the days of indoor smoking in bars/restaurants at all and have no wish to return there.
I get what you mean though, cannabis is still very much a ´go for a walk’ thing when not on a private property where the owner is cool with it.
And if you can operate a cigar lounge why can’t you operate a cannabis lounge? Well I guess we somehow decided cigars were sophisticated and worthy of being smoked, you’re not even allowed to light up a cig in there. Makes no god damn sense.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:45 PM on October 17, 2023
We sure love wine, and there’s not really a stigma around its consumption in reasonable quantities.
The Qc government went into this quite grudgingly, this clearly was something they HAD to do, not something they wanted to do. It’s still wrapped in a lot of ´think of the children’ arguments. For example the limit on growing at home is justified by the fact it could give easy access to cannabis to kids, the edibles being quite unique choices, for example dehydrated cauliflower, again it’s justified by not having attractive sweet edibles kids can eat inadvertently.
Not allowing easy/accidental access to cannabis to kids is a worthy goal, but education/parental responsibility is key, not banning gummies. It’s like they think you can’t make edibles at home from flower/oil. You won’t be doing nano infusions or CO2 extractions but there’s still a wide range of easy possibilities and your cookies/brownies/gummies may not come with correct labeling, safe storage or known dosage and we’re back where it all started about access.
Preventing access to plants, that’s where parental responsibility kicks in, do what’s right in your situation, some people choose not to have kids, why shouldn’t they be allowed to grow their own? This is no more an issue in Qc than in Ontario or BC, they just took every out they could take. It’s not really enforced but selective enforcement of laws always ends up being a force for inequality.
For the vape cartridges, there’s an old unfavorable advisory note from the province’s public health agency for those. Could change, but on the other hand the province is banning flavors from
nicotine vapes this month because it’s too popular with kids and instead of vaping to get off cigarettes people are going straight into vaping.
And the elephant in the room is that you can mail order it from the other provinces, drive to the next one for a bit of shopping (not always practical), or go to an Indian reserve that has decided that it’s ok to sell and buy all those things. So access is reduced but far from eliminated.
I think they would much rather have people drink than ingest cannabis. You can go anywhere to get alcohol and socialize, but you can't do that with weed.* Alcohol is looped into celebration/mourning/etc.
*I so badly want any province to pass the creation of cannabis lounges. I would love to go somewhere and drink coffee and have a toke.
While I’ll admit vape cartridges and vaporizing flower are quite discrete vs smoking herb (or god forbid cigarettes) I do not miss the days of indoor smoking in bars/restaurants at all and have no wish to return there.
I get what you mean though, cannabis is still very much a ´go for a walk’ thing when not on a private property where the owner is cool with it.
And if you can operate a cigar lounge why can’t you operate a cannabis lounge? Well I guess we somehow decided cigars were sophisticated and worthy of being smoked, you’re not even allowed to light up a cig in there. Makes no god damn sense.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:45 PM on October 17, 2023
As someone who works in advocacy and education in the cannabis sector, I can assure you there isn't less stigma. Less stigma would mean we stop making legal cannabis look shady and furtive--all stores in Ontario have to have frosted glass or some other partition so people cannot see products from outside
As mentioned above, not that many decades ago liquor and beer stores were run on a sort of Eastern European government office model: people shuffled in, looked through a catalogue, filled out a slip, handed it to a clerk who went into the back room and came back with a package. Now, of course, they are full-on random access: shelves of product on display, pick up what you want, take it to the front to pay.
In Union Station in Toronto, as if to demonstrate… something, there is a liquor store and a cannabis store side by side. One has floor-to-ceiling plate glass, is brightly lit, and has at least hundreds of bottles there to browse through.
Next door to it is a store which obscures the entire interior behind opaque walls; within, clerks will let you look at small displays each with a single image, the product name, and perhaps ten words of ad copy. You order your product of choice and the clerk retrieves it for you.
Cannabis has been legal here for five years; alcohol for one hundred. It’s curious to see how slowly the gubmint of Ontario relaxes its restrictions on intoxicants.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:45 PM on October 17, 2023
As mentioned above, not that many decades ago liquor and beer stores were run on a sort of Eastern European government office model: people shuffled in, looked through a catalogue, filled out a slip, handed it to a clerk who went into the back room and came back with a package. Now, of course, they are full-on random access: shelves of product on display, pick up what you want, take it to the front to pay.
In Union Station in Toronto, as if to demonstrate… something, there is a liquor store and a cannabis store side by side. One has floor-to-ceiling plate glass, is brightly lit, and has at least hundreds of bottles there to browse through.
Next door to it is a store which obscures the entire interior behind opaque walls; within, clerks will let you look at small displays each with a single image, the product name, and perhaps ten words of ad copy. You order your product of choice and the clerk retrieves it for you.
Cannabis has been legal here for five years; alcohol for one hundred. It’s curious to see how slowly the gubmint of Ontario relaxes its restrictions on intoxicants.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:45 PM on October 17, 2023
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