Bankruptcy Won't Save You Now, Alex
October 20, 2023 7:10 AM Subscribe
In the bankruptcy hearing for Infowars owner and conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Christopher Lopez hasruled that the $1.1B in rulings against Jones are non-dischargable, putting him personally on the hook for the full amount. (SLReuters)
While bankruptcy does allow for the discharge of most debts, including court rulings, rulings stemming from "willful or malicious injury" cannot be discharged by bankruptcy. This ruling confirms that the rulings were such.
While bankruptcy does allow for the discharge of most debts, including court rulings, rulings stemming from "willful or malicious injury" cannot be discharged by bankruptcy. This ruling confirms that the rulings were such.
Doesn't this presume he's got the $1.1B to give? Like, if he gives away everything to some trust or simply pays out all the money he has and has assets of $0.00, what, if anything, can the victims expect the court to do?
posted by Xoder at 7:15 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Xoder at 7:15 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like, if he gives away everything to some trust or simply pays out all the money he has and has assets of $0.00, what, if anything, can the victims expect the court to do?
I'm not so sure that the victims in this case care whether or not they get any money themselves, and are more concerned with Alex Jones being suitably punished. And if said punishment comes down to "I will personally only get $4.50 out of this, but Alex Jones will be broke and a pariah for the rest of his life, so I will happily spend that $4.50 on popcorn and sit there eating it while I watch him weep", I think they would be just fine with that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:21 AM on October 20, 2023 [86 favorites]
I'm not so sure that the victims in this case care whether or not they get any money themselves, and are more concerned with Alex Jones being suitably punished. And if said punishment comes down to "I will personally only get $4.50 out of this, but Alex Jones will be broke and a pariah for the rest of his life, so I will happily spend that $4.50 on popcorn and sit there eating it while I watch him weep", I think they would be just fine with that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:21 AM on October 20, 2023 [86 favorites]
Doesn't this presume he's got the $1.1B to give? Like, if he gives away everything to some trust or simply pays out all the money he has and has assets of $0.00, what, if anything, can the victims expect the court to do?
Garnish future earnings.
You're right that this doesn't mean that the victims get paid, though.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:23 AM on October 20, 2023 [16 favorites]
Garnish future earnings.
You're right that this doesn't mean that the victims get paid, though.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:23 AM on October 20, 2023 [16 favorites]
I want him to die alone, poor, and only brought up as a cautionary tale to the next right wing gasbag wannabee.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:23 AM on October 20, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by cmfletcher at 7:23 AM on October 20, 2023 [28 favorites]
The point is that he can’t just declare bankruptcy, liquidate infowars, and write off the debt, which would then allow him to just start up the grift machine again. Now basically every penny he makes has to go to restitution, for the rest of his life. Yeah, the victims are not getting a billion dollars, but Alex Jones is getting nothing at all.
posted by rockindata at 7:25 AM on October 20, 2023 [83 favorites]
posted by rockindata at 7:25 AM on October 20, 2023 [83 favorites]
It's good but I still wish stalking and torturing the families of murdered children was something one went to prison for.
posted by emjaybee at 7:28 AM on October 20, 2023 [111 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 7:28 AM on October 20, 2023 [111 favorites]
But he ruled that other parts of the verdicts, including $324 million in attorneys' fees that were awarded as punitive damages in the Connecticut case, could possibly be discharged.
So the victims might get paid but the attorneys might not? /Borat "very nice"
posted by Gorgik at 7:29 AM on October 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
So the victims might get paid but the attorneys might not? /Borat "very nice"
posted by Gorgik at 7:29 AM on October 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
Good.
posted by Artw at 7:39 AM on October 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:39 AM on October 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
At least one plaintiff is currently having to do GoFundMe to raise money for her cancer treatment while Alex fucks around trying to hide or spend all his money, so it's not entirely an academic question.
posted by Scattercat at 7:47 AM on October 20, 2023 [44 favorites]
posted by Scattercat at 7:47 AM on October 20, 2023 [44 favorites]
Reminded of someone else who spent down all his money so it couldn't go to child support. Things didn't go too good for him, which did not help his family immediately, but did prevent future harm.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:51 AM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 7:51 AM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
So the victims might get paid but the attorneys might not? /Borat "very nice"
Yeah, fuck the people who did the work to get the victims that money.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:51 AM on October 20, 2023 [46 favorites]
Yeah, fuck the people who did the work to get the victims that money.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:51 AM on October 20, 2023 [46 favorites]
Yeah, I’m not sure how leaving the plaintiffs’ attorneys out to dry is going to encourage future attempts to enact justice (whatever that means).
posted by garisimo at 7:57 AM on October 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by garisimo at 7:57 AM on October 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yeah, fuck the people who did the work to get the victims that money.
While I agree that the lawyers for the plaintiffs should be paid something, at least - it's arguable that the attorney who did most to benefit the plaintiffs was actually ALEX JONES' attorney, since he was the guy who accidentally shared Jones' ENTIRE phone text history with the prosecution. And - I have no qualms about Alex Jones' attorney also being screwed over, frankly.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:58 AM on October 20, 2023 [18 favorites]
While I agree that the lawyers for the plaintiffs should be paid something, at least - it's arguable that the attorney who did most to benefit the plaintiffs was actually ALEX JONES' attorney, since he was the guy who accidentally shared Jones' ENTIRE phone text history with the prosecution. And - I have no qualms about Alex Jones' attorney also being screwed over, frankly.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:58 AM on October 20, 2023 [18 favorites]
Now do the Sacklers / Purdue.
The university has nothing to do with the chicken.
posted by cooker girl at 8:01 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
The university has nothing to do with the chicken.
posted by cooker girl at 8:01 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe he will end up with criminal charges related to his attempts to hide and transfer assets around to avoid paying.
posted by interogative mood at 8:05 AM on October 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 8:05 AM on October 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
The chicken and the university have a letter difference.
posted by 41swans at 8:07 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by 41swans at 8:07 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
The university has nothing to do with the chicken.
The Purdue in question is the pharmaceutical company, owned by the Sackler family (and, fwiw, having no particular connection to the university or the chicken company).
posted by jedicus at 8:07 AM on October 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
The Purdue in question is the pharmaceutical company, owned by the Sackler family (and, fwiw, having no particular connection to the university or the chicken company).
posted by jedicus at 8:07 AM on October 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think the attorney fees in question were solely for the plantiffs, not for the defendant. If that is not the case (if they were going to ‘split’ the fess according to some previous agreeement), then I guess it’s good that AJ’s attorneys get nothing, but that still leaves the plantiff attorneys without payment for their work.
posted by garisimo at 8:10 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by garisimo at 8:10 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Something linked above says Jones spent $93,000 dollars in a month on personal things.
As one does...
Take him to church
posted by Windopaene at 8:20 AM on October 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
As one does...
Take him to church
posted by Windopaene at 8:20 AM on October 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
Best news I've heard today. I hope they can invert the guy and shake out enough (track down and sell assets, permanent garnishing, etc) to see something go to plaintiffs and their attorneys. Sadly, the powerful and well-off seldom actually touch bottom; between financial shenanigans and a bro with a spare suite over the garage, AJ won't miss a meal. Martyr status might even be good for his stature with the alt-right.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:21 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artful Codger at 8:21 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
financial shenanigans
The really irritating thing is that the legal system has mechanisms to break through those shenanigans, but god forbid those mechanisms be used against a white guy.
posted by aramaic at 8:30 AM on October 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
The really irritating thing is that the legal system has mechanisms to break through those shenanigans, but god forbid those mechanisms be used against a white guy.
posted by aramaic at 8:30 AM on October 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
Is he, personally, on the hook for paying, or are deep-pocketed supporters free to funnel the needed funds into Jones' hands?
posted by Thorzdad at 8:37 AM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 8:37 AM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
So the victims might get paid but the attorneys might not? /Borat "very nice"
The attorneys might not get paid by Alex Jones. That doesn't mean they can't bill their clients.
So, even if the victims get ANY money, they may have to pay it to their attorneys.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:43 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
The attorneys might not get paid by Alex Jones. That doesn't mean they can't bill their clients.
So, even if the victims get ANY money, they may have to pay it to their attorneys.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:43 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't understand why the court doesn't just take everything from his bank account and seize all his assets? Why do they leave it to him to surrender it when he clearly has no intention of doing so?
Do they not have that power?
posted by dobbs at 8:56 AM on October 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
Do they not have that power?
posted by dobbs at 8:56 AM on October 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
Couldn't happen to a nicer.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 9:34 AM on October 20, 2023
posted by gentlyepigrams at 9:34 AM on October 20, 2023
Is he, personally, on the hook for paying, or are deep-pocketed supporters free to funnel the needed funds into Jones' hands?
I could be wrong but I don't think they're likely to do this because he's not useful anymore and right wing billionaires are not loyal. Look at Milo Yiannopoulos, when was the last time you heard anything about him? He used to be riding high on funding from rich conservatives and that completely dried up and I suspect the same thing will happen to Alex Jones. I don't think billionaires are going to be returning his calls.
posted by an octopus IRL at 9:48 AM on October 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
I could be wrong but I don't think they're likely to do this because he's not useful anymore and right wing billionaires are not loyal. Look at Milo Yiannopoulos, when was the last time you heard anything about him? He used to be riding high on funding from rich conservatives and that completely dried up and I suspect the same thing will happen to Alex Jones. I don't think billionaires are going to be returning his calls.
posted by an octopus IRL at 9:48 AM on October 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Luckily for Jones, his loyal friend Donald Trump has billions and billions of dollars to help him out.
posted by pracowity at 9:58 AM on October 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 9:58 AM on October 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I do not approve of physical harm being done to people, with the exception of medical emergencies and/or approval given by the person being harmed.
So, in that spirit, has anyone posted the video yet where Alex Jones asked to be choked out (X link) live on air?
posted by flamewise at 10:07 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
So, in that spirit, has anyone posted the video yet where Alex Jones asked to be choked out (X link) live on air?
posted by flamewise at 10:07 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Garnishing his future earnings is the worst choice, considering what he'd do to earn the money.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:53 AM on October 20, 2023
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:53 AM on October 20, 2023
It gives me a great deal of pleasure to know that Alex Jones will be working for the Sandy Hook families for the rest of his life.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:00 AM on October 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 11:00 AM on October 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
Being reminded of him by the NY Times headline on this news made me marvel at just how awful he is. Maybe something about our times has inured us to just how remarkable a concentration of vileness he is. And how flabbergasting it is that he has followers. Though it's Trump and MAGA on a smaller scale, if we push aside the "Oh yes, that's Alec Jones, he's a celebrity" and just recount: he called the families of murdered children liars and had people follow them around mocking them and making them fear in the midst of their grief you can't help but be shocked.
Seems to me he's a big crybaby who has to center his tantrums over his masculinity anxiety over anything else in the world. Murdered children don't matter! What if there's gun control??? That would make me feel less manly! How dare you even bring up murdered children???
posted by Schmucko at 11:02 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Seems to me he's a big crybaby who has to center his tantrums over his masculinity anxiety over anything else in the world. Murdered children don't matter! What if there's gun control??? That would make me feel less manly! How dare you even bring up murdered children???
posted by Schmucko at 11:02 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Like, if he gives away everything to some trust or simply pays out all the money he has and has assets of $0.00, what, if anything, can the victims expect the court to do?
He can go to jail for post-verdict money hiding financial shenanigans as can whatever people provide him with the financial expertise to try and evade the financial penalties. The time to divest is before the court case at best and before the verdict at worst. Post-facto is definitely most-fuckto. He is going to the cleaners and anybody who dicks around with money for him better have really good lawyers themselves because that guilt is contagious.
posted by srboisvert at 11:18 AM on October 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
He can go to jail for post-verdict money hiding financial shenanigans as can whatever people provide him with the financial expertise to try and evade the financial penalties. The time to divest is before the court case at best and before the verdict at worst. Post-facto is definitely most-fuckto. He is going to the cleaners and anybody who dicks around with money for him better have really good lawyers themselves because that guilt is contagious.
posted by srboisvert at 11:18 AM on October 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
So the victims might get paid but the attorneys might not? /Borat "very nice"
Yeah, no? I can only speak for the plaintiff’s attorneys in TX and CT, but they put up with an amazing amount of bullshit to get their clients justice, and did it with professionalism, good humor, and, apparently, deep concern for their clients.
My hope for all of this is that Jones won’t be able to self-fund anymore, and, since he is a terror to work with, his assets will get liquidated and he will end up unable to spread his noxious views. I could see him and his associates (possibly his father) suffering further consequences due to financial crimes as well.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:59 AM on October 20, 2023 [22 favorites]
Yeah, no? I can only speak for the plaintiff’s attorneys in TX and CT, but they put up with an amazing amount of bullshit to get their clients justice, and did it with professionalism, good humor, and, apparently, deep concern for their clients.
My hope for all of this is that Jones won’t be able to self-fund anymore, and, since he is a terror to work with, his assets will get liquidated and he will end up unable to spread his noxious views. I could see him and his associates (possibly his father) suffering further consequences due to financial crimes as well.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:59 AM on October 20, 2023 [22 favorites]
I remember reading that he said he had a prenup that required him to pay some large (though not insanely huge) amount of money -- maybe like $10,000 or so? -- to his wife every month, during their marriage. It stuck in my mind because I'd never heard of this sort of, uh, pre-alimony before, and while part of me thinks that it may be a reasonable thing at least in some cases, another part of me couldn't help but snidely think Alex Jones needs to pay his wife a salary for her to stay married to him.
Anyway, he gave this as one of his recurring expenses that he said he couldn't forgo. Assuming it's even true in the first place, how does this sort of thing work in bankruptcy? And more specifically in this "non-dischargable" version?
posted by Flunkie at 2:28 PM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Anyway, he gave this as one of his recurring expenses that he said he couldn't forgo. Assuming it's even true in the first place, how does this sort of thing work in bankruptcy? And more specifically in this "non-dischargable" version?
posted by Flunkie at 2:28 PM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, no? I can only speak for the plaintiff’s attorneys in TX and CT, but they put up with an amazing amount of bullshit to get their clients justice, and did it with professionalism, good humor, and, apparently, deep concern for their clients.
Fair enough. I apologize for and "retract" my flip comment.
posted by Gorgik at 2:58 PM on October 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Fair enough. I apologize for and "retract" my flip comment.
posted by Gorgik at 2:58 PM on October 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's worth noting that Mark Bankston, the lawyer for the Sandy Hook families who famously revealed his getting Jones' phone contents, is currently fighting to hold Elon Musk accountable for defaming a college student as a neo-Nazi.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:47 PM on October 20, 2023 [33 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:47 PM on October 20, 2023 [33 favorites]
So, is there anyone here who can explain the mechanism involved here and how that actually impacts Jones personally?
Does he get to say "well, I need a house so I get to keep that" or is the actual, no shit, for real, outcome of this going to be a total liquidation of his assets and Jones personally having a bank balance of $0 and a whole fuckton of debt to pay off?
If, hypothetically, some right wing billionaire felt like it, could they pay it for Jones or is that against the rules?
If, as I'm sure he'll try to, Jones manages to keep his show going and his wage are garnished, how much does that take and how much does that leave Jones? 50%? 10% 1%?
I realize a lot of this is specific to this case, but going by other similar cases what's it usually wind up being like?
posted by sotonohito at 3:51 PM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Does he get to say "well, I need a house so I get to keep that" or is the actual, no shit, for real, outcome of this going to be a total liquidation of his assets and Jones personally having a bank balance of $0 and a whole fuckton of debt to pay off?
If, hypothetically, some right wing billionaire felt like it, could they pay it for Jones or is that against the rules?
If, as I'm sure he'll try to, Jones manages to keep his show going and his wage are garnished, how much does that take and how much does that leave Jones? 50%? 10% 1%?
I realize a lot of this is specific to this case, but going by other similar cases what's it usually wind up being like?
posted by sotonohito at 3:51 PM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I remember reading that he said he had a prenup that required him to pay some large (though not insanely huge) amount of money -- maybe like $10,000 or so? -- to his wife every month, during their marriage. It stuck in my mind because I'd never heard of this sort of, uh, pre-alimony before, and while part of me thinks that it may be a reasonable thing at least in some cases, another part of me couldn't help but snidely think Alex Jones needs to pay his wife a salary for her to stay married to him.
If they were planning on her being out of the workforce, this sort of agreement is a huge deal in terms of her ability to leave a bad marriage.
posted by hoyland at 4:06 PM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have worked for attorneys of various types. I have known people who had attorneys help with personal injury cases. Not all attorneys are good, hut I have also known attorneys who go to bat for their clients, who care for them, fight for them, go extra mile after extra mile for them.
posted by lhauser at 6:00 PM on October 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by lhauser at 6:00 PM on October 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
FAFO.
Finally, incredibly, this seems to be becoming a common chorus for the People vs the MAGA mega-maniacals - from the 1000+ behind bars for Jan 6 to the Sydney Powells/K Chesebros/(soon to be ?) lining up for their guilty pleas, to Rudy & Co. facing the ruins of poverty. And, in unlikely synchronicity, the entire GOP conference whom, driven to frenzy, are gleefully, madly and publicly dismembering their own comrades in full glare of the cameras, the combined consensus even leading serious minded pundits to begin weaving a beggining-of-the-end--of-Trumpsim narrative that actually feels somewhat plausible.
Of course, it only took 'til we find ourselves on the precipice of WWIII armageddon so, you know, that's why we can't have nice things.
posted by thecincinnatikid at 6:46 PM on October 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
Finally, incredibly, this seems to be becoming a common chorus for the People vs the MAGA mega-maniacals - from the 1000+ behind bars for Jan 6 to the Sydney Powells/K Chesebros/(soon to be ?) lining up for their guilty pleas, to Rudy & Co. facing the ruins of poverty. And, in unlikely synchronicity, the entire GOP conference whom, driven to frenzy, are gleefully, madly and publicly dismembering their own comrades in full glare of the cameras, the combined consensus even leading serious minded pundits to begin weaving a beggining-of-the-end--of-Trumpsim narrative that actually feels somewhat plausible.
Of course, it only took 'til we find ourselves on the precipice of WWIII armageddon so, you know, that's why we can't have nice things.
posted by thecincinnatikid at 6:46 PM on October 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
If, hypothetically, some right wing billionaire felt like it, could they pay it for Jones or is that against the rules?
If, as I'm sure he'll try to, Jones manages to keep his show going and his wage are garnished, how much does that take and how much does that leave Jones? 50%? 10% 1%?
IANAL, but my understanding is that the court is generally more interested in the plaintiffs getting paid, and less interested in the defendant being financially punished per se.
So I would expect that if someone else were to pay off the settlement, they could. Similarly, a person with $0 to their name is generally not able to hold down a job with which to pay more money, so the amount of a wage garnishment is limited to a percent of “disposable” income (as determined by the court). The rules are complex but the government has a fact sheet about it.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 6:57 PM on October 20, 2023
If, as I'm sure he'll try to, Jones manages to keep his show going and his wage are garnished, how much does that take and how much does that leave Jones? 50%? 10% 1%?
IANAL, but my understanding is that the court is generally more interested in the plaintiffs getting paid, and less interested in the defendant being financially punished per se.
So I would expect that if someone else were to pay off the settlement, they could. Similarly, a person with $0 to their name is generally not able to hold down a job with which to pay more money, so the amount of a wage garnishment is limited to a percent of “disposable” income (as determined by the court). The rules are complex but the government has a fact sheet about it.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 6:57 PM on October 20, 2023
As I mentioned upthread.
$93K a month...
posted by Windopaene at 7:08 PM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
$93K a month...
posted by Windopaene at 7:08 PM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have worked for attorneys of various types. I have known people who had attorneys help with personal injury cases. Not all attorneys are good, hut I have also known attorneys who go to bat for their clients, who care for them, fight for them, go extra mile after extra mile for them.
I'm a big fan of the Knowledge Fight podcast, they listen to Alex Jones and debunk his bullshit. They have around 850 episodes! Anyhow they have a number of interviews with the attorneys, you may be able to find them if you look into their archives around the date of the verdict.
I can tell you that this has been a years long labor of love for them. They say themselves they don't care about the money. They'll take it! But it's their deep empathy for the victims that keeps them driven. They're not just clients, they're life-long personal friends, and it's a great honor to help them in this way. And fuckin' WIN!
They're really great guys with big hearts doing tough work. They'll never pay for beer if I'm around.
posted by adept256 at 7:28 PM on October 20, 2023 [19 favorites]
I'm a big fan of the Knowledge Fight podcast, they listen to Alex Jones and debunk his bullshit. They have around 850 episodes! Anyhow they have a number of interviews with the attorneys, you may be able to find them if you look into their archives around the date of the verdict.
I can tell you that this has been a years long labor of love for them. They say themselves they don't care about the money. They'll take it! But it's their deep empathy for the victims that keeps them driven. They're not just clients, they're life-long personal friends, and it's a great honor to help them in this way. And fuckin' WIN!
They're really great guys with big hearts doing tough work. They'll never pay for beer if I'm around.
posted by adept256 at 7:28 PM on October 20, 2023 [19 favorites]
Oh, I also learnt a lot about Jones' lawyers. They are complete fuck-ups who studied Moon Law at the University of Uranus. They didn't even present a defense. They were no-shows. They just didn't come to court when it was their turn to plead their case. They just ghosted! The judge had no choice but to give a summary judgement of guilty. So there was no actual trial - it proceeded directly to damages.
You may forgive them for not showing up because it was arguably worse when they did. I'll share the most glaringly obvious fuck-up. During discovery of evidence they had to provide all of Jones' text messages from his personal phone related to Sandy Hook. They didn't just give them those texts though, they sent the entire contents of his phone to the plaintiff's attorneys. Realizing that this must be a mistake, they emailed asking if they were sure they meant to send this. Legally, they had two weeks to retract that evidence. Two weeks passed. A full two weeks when they didn't check their email. They only found out in the court room, when they broke the news to Alex Jones' fucking stupid face.
Trash client, trash lawyers. Alex could have hired competent lawyers. Just apply the money funnel to the problem, let some evil bastard make this go away for a huge pile of cash. The Sacklers did it. He could have just settled for much less. But he chose these weird losers.
posted by adept256 at 8:21 PM on October 20, 2023 [20 favorites]
You may forgive them for not showing up because it was arguably worse when they did. I'll share the most glaringly obvious fuck-up. During discovery of evidence they had to provide all of Jones' text messages from his personal phone related to Sandy Hook. They didn't just give them those texts though, they sent the entire contents of his phone to the plaintiff's attorneys. Realizing that this must be a mistake, they emailed asking if they were sure they meant to send this. Legally, they had two weeks to retract that evidence. Two weeks passed. A full two weeks when they didn't check their email. They only found out in the court room, when they broke the news to Alex Jones' fucking stupid face.
Trash client, trash lawyers. Alex could have hired competent lawyers. Just apply the money funnel to the problem, let some evil bastard make this go away for a huge pile of cash. The Sacklers did it. He could have just settled for much less. But he chose these weird losers.
posted by adept256 at 8:21 PM on October 20, 2023 [20 favorites]
Ms. Windo is a lawyer. She does work for a non-profit that represents children and teens that have fallen into the system. These "lawyers" make me so angry.
posted by Windopaene at 8:28 PM on October 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 8:28 PM on October 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hey - Jones' lawyers failed him so badly he has the biggest defamation settlement in history. $1.1 billion, that's the new record. Congratulations Alex, you're number one, you made history.
I'm not angry at his lawyers at all, I think they did a great job!
posted by adept256 at 11:40 PM on October 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm not angry at his lawyers at all, I think they did a great job!
posted by adept256 at 11:40 PM on October 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Oh, I also learnt a lot about Jones' lawyers. They are complete fuck-ups who studied Moon Law at the University of Uranus. They didn't even present a defense. They were no-shows. They just didn't come to court when it was their turn to plead their case. They just ghosted! The judge had no choice but to give a summary judgement of guilty. So there was no actual trial - it proceeded directly to damages.
This is a bit nit picky, but the problem was not Jones’ lawyers. Well, Jones’ lawyers* were problems, but of the “shitty dude in a courtroom” variety — they were combative, disruptive, constantly interrupted and obstructed proceedings, and generally added to the circus they were trying to build (hoping, I think, for a mistrial).
The summary judgements (as I understand it) came from Jones and his people refusing to comply with the discovery process — during depositions they sent unprepared people to represent the company, tried to turn the process into ads for Infowars, were frequently caught out in misstatements and misrepresentations, etc. Jones seemed to have believed that, if he avoided giving up information, he could block the trial. Unfortunately for him, this is an obvious ploy, and the court system has methods for dealing with it.
I am told that getting a summery judgement is pretty rare — you have to be massively obstructionist to manage it. Getting something like four in a year is a mark of… well, something.
* Even with Jones being in at least four lawsuits at the same time, he’s gone through a ridiculous number of lawyers — well over a dozen. Some have been incompetent, some just awful. Many have racked up sanctions and a staggering level of fines, which I hope aren’t reimbursed. Norm Pattis, the main defense lawyer in CT, was suspended for 6 months for his behavior in the courtroom, but Federico Reynal, the main lawyer in TX (whose office turned over the phone contents after which he failed to do the paperwork to claw the data back) seems to have avoided formal punishment.
As for Knowledge Fight, which is entertaining and exhausting to listen to, has about 40 hours of episodes relating to the depositions and trials in the CT and TX cases. They are heavily annotated to help you understand where Jones & Co are obfuscating and obstructing (and just being… dumb? way too privileged?). You also get to see two different plaintiff’s teams attacking the same rotting edifice. It’s full of humor and horror and well worth the listen if you have the time and stomach for it.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:15 AM on October 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is a bit nit picky, but the problem was not Jones’ lawyers. Well, Jones’ lawyers* were problems, but of the “shitty dude in a courtroom” variety — they were combative, disruptive, constantly interrupted and obstructed proceedings, and generally added to the circus they were trying to build (hoping, I think, for a mistrial).
The summary judgements (as I understand it) came from Jones and his people refusing to comply with the discovery process — during depositions they sent unprepared people to represent the company, tried to turn the process into ads for Infowars, were frequently caught out in misstatements and misrepresentations, etc. Jones seemed to have believed that, if he avoided giving up information, he could block the trial. Unfortunately for him, this is an obvious ploy, and the court system has methods for dealing with it.
I am told that getting a summery judgement is pretty rare — you have to be massively obstructionist to manage it. Getting something like four in a year is a mark of… well, something.
* Even with Jones being in at least four lawsuits at the same time, he’s gone through a ridiculous number of lawyers — well over a dozen. Some have been incompetent, some just awful. Many have racked up sanctions and a staggering level of fines, which I hope aren’t reimbursed. Norm Pattis, the main defense lawyer in CT, was suspended for 6 months for his behavior in the courtroom, but Federico Reynal, the main lawyer in TX (whose office turned over the phone contents after which he failed to do the paperwork to claw the data back) seems to have avoided formal punishment.
As for Knowledge Fight, which is entertaining and exhausting to listen to, has about 40 hours of episodes relating to the depositions and trials in the CT and TX cases. They are heavily annotated to help you understand where Jones & Co are obfuscating and obstructing (and just being… dumb? way too privileged?). You also get to see two different plaintiff’s teams attacking the same rotting edifice. It’s full of humor and horror and well worth the listen if you have the time and stomach for it.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:15 AM on October 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
.
(for his wallet)
Hell, not even his wallet deserves pity.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:45 AM on October 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
(for his wallet)
Hell, not even his wallet deserves pity.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:45 AM on October 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
The overripe tomato that squats like a toad and screams like a howler monkey that is Alex Jones desperately deserves to have everything he owns disposed of at auction and all the money given to the families, leaving him with a pair of sandals, a pair of underpants, and a poncho. The nicest thing I can think to say about the man is that he has the kind of voice that repels vermin.
Let him be impoverished and unhomed and dropped onto a small, remote island and forced to work for his life where no one can hear him.
posted by mephron at 2:05 PM on October 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
Let him be impoverished and unhomed and dropped onto a small, remote island and forced to work for his life where no one can hear him.
posted by mephron at 2:05 PM on October 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
he has the kind of voice that repels vermin
I take it you haven't met his fans.
posted by ryanrs at 11:28 PM on October 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
I take it you haven't met his fans.
posted by ryanrs at 11:28 PM on October 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is your regular reminder that Jones et al claiming that Sandy Hook was a hoax in order to push gun control is an admission that the obvious response to a horror like Sandy Hook is gun control.
posted by Gelatin at 4:58 AM on October 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 4:58 AM on October 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
> "A full two weeks when they didn't check their email."
My understanding it was even dumber than that. I was under the impression it was more like:
PLAINTIFF'S LAWYERS: Did you mean to send us all this information?
DEFENSE LAWYERS: No, please don't use that.
PLAINTIFF'S LAWYERS: OK, fill out the necessary formal legal paperwork to claw it back and we'll delete it.
DEFENSE LAWYERS: *utter silence*
PLAINTIFF'S LAWYERS: *"Perry Mason moment" in courtroom*
DEFENDANT: *taken by complete surprise since none of this was mentioned to him*
DEFENSE LAWYERS: Wait, you're using that? But we asked you not to! We said please!
JUDGE: Are you kidding me here?
posted by kyrademon at 5:31 AM on October 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
My understanding it was even dumber than that. I was under the impression it was more like:
PLAINTIFF'S LAWYERS: Did you mean to send us all this information?
DEFENSE LAWYERS: No, please don't use that.
PLAINTIFF'S LAWYERS: OK, fill out the necessary formal legal paperwork to claw it back and we'll delete it.
DEFENSE LAWYERS: *utter silence*
PLAINTIFF'S LAWYERS: *"Perry Mason moment" in courtroom*
DEFENDANT: *taken by complete surprise since none of this was mentioned to him*
DEFENSE LAWYERS: Wait, you're using that? But we asked you not to! We said please!
JUDGE: Are you kidding me here?
posted by kyrademon at 5:31 AM on October 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
Reynal was in a "fucked either way" situation with the phone data, as a large amount of it was information the plaintiffs were entitled to (and their not having it was a large part of the summary judgement that Jones recieved.) A legal clawback request would have led to wrangling as the court would then decide what did get clawed back. That said, Reynal chose the absolute worst option of making no request in an attempt to fish out a mistrial - and we all saw how that went.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:35 AM on October 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:35 AM on October 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
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