Jury finds Sam Bankman-Fried guilty
November 2, 2023 5:27 PM Subscribe
Jury finds Sam Bankman-Fried guilty. Not a big surprise for anybody who has been casually following the whole crypto "industry" or trial. For newcomers, FTX is (was?) a cryptocurrency exchange well known for their explosive growth and valuation and Sam Bankman-Fried (commonly abbreviated as SBF) was hailed as the genius CEO. A lot of people wondered how they managed it, and unsurprisingly, it turns out the magic ingredient was fraud.
Some previous hits involving FTX include SBF describing their business model as essentially a ponzi scheme and being hailed as a visionary by Sequoia Capital for hit pitch while playing League of Legends. His inability to shut up and dig himself into a deeper hole can't have helped.
Joining Elizabeth Holmes on the Forbes 30 doin' 30 list.
posted by tclark at 5:38 PM on November 2, 2023 [137 favorites]
posted by tclark at 5:38 PM on November 2, 2023 [137 favorites]
Bankman-Fried convicted on seven charges, faces maximum sentence of 110 years.
posted by adept256 at 5:39 PM on November 2, 2023 [66 favorites]
def _get_sentence() -> decimal:
return f2d(numpy.random.normal(2, 110))posted by adept256 at 5:39 PM on November 2, 2023 [66 favorites]
Jury finds Sam Bankman-Fried guilty
Nominative determinism always, always, always wins in the end.
posted by signal at 5:40 PM on November 2, 2023 [26 favorites]
Nominative determinism always, always, always wins in the end.
posted by signal at 5:40 PM on November 2, 2023 [26 favorites]
I'm minting a set of NFTs, each representing a possible jail term length for SBF. The one that matches the actual sentence is likely to appreciate in value dramatically! If you're interested in purchasing one, just lift your right buttcheek and fart loudly now. I'll hear you and get in touch.
posted by phooky at 5:42 PM on November 2, 2023 [44 favorites]
posted by phooky at 5:42 PM on November 2, 2023 [44 favorites]
Bankman-Fried chose to testify and tried to shift the blame to others. He repeatedly answered "I'm not sure" or "I can't recall" in response to a prosecutor's questions.
This also seems to be the defense used by the TFG clan in that other Manhattan fraud trial. Here's hoping history repeats itself, and quickly.
posted by swift at 5:50 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
This also seems to be the defense used by the TFG clan in that other Manhattan fraud trial. Here's hoping history repeats itself, and quickly.
posted by swift at 5:50 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
"Cryptocurrency" turned out to be a crypt of currency.
posted by Repack Rider at 5:50 PM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Repack Rider at 5:50 PM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
I am slightly heartened that a jury found one of the most utterly blatant crypto-grifters, who almost literally gift-wrapped himself for their edification, guilty. Now do the rest of them.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:51 PM on November 2, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:51 PM on November 2, 2023 [27 favorites]
He'll do fine in prison. My understanding is prison is largely about dealing in novel forms of currency.
posted by kensington314 at 6:11 PM on November 2, 2023 [32 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 6:11 PM on November 2, 2023 [32 favorites]
Now do the rest of them.
NYAG Tish James has filed suit against the Winklevii over their crypto bullshit, and the Safemoon execs just got arrested today.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:13 PM on November 2, 2023 [29 favorites]
NYAG Tish James has filed suit against the Winklevii over their crypto bullshit, and the Safemoon execs just got arrested today.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:13 PM on November 2, 2023 [29 favorites]
Also, let this be yet another object example of Why You Don't Let The Defendant Anywhere Near The Stand, Period. Bankman-Fried talked himself into a cell.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:21 PM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:21 PM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
The above chart shows Bankman-Fried donated to Protect Our Future, a Democratic political action committee primarily funded by the former FTX billionaire, as well as One Nation, a nonprofit group aligned with Republican Senate leader Mitch McConnell.(bloomberg)
Watch out for conservatives loud-mouthing SBF's deep ties to the Democratic party. Let them carry on about how awful that is - then remind them that he dined with McConnell as well.
posted by adept256 at 6:22 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
Watch out for conservatives loud-mouthing SBF's deep ties to the Democratic party. Let them carry on about how awful that is - then remind them that he dined with McConnell as well.
posted by adept256 at 6:22 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
He'll do fine in prison. My understanding is prison is largely about dealing in novel forms of currency.
When criminal crypto/money launderer Charlie Shrem was facing federal charges, as a thought experiment about prison he invented "MackerelCoin" which is a pen and paper cryptocurrency backed by tins of mackerel, which his prison consultant said was the primary form of currency.
Two years later he's released from prison camp, and he makes the rounds again with the same thought experiment, claiming that he invented MackerelCoin while doing time.
Despite having a federal record he's still working in the crypto space and just like the Mafia or hells Angels or other gangs serving time has probably buffed his reputation.
Is there a moral here? I don't know, the cryptosphere has a short memory and SBF will be back some day pulling his same old grifts.
posted by muddgirl at 6:23 PM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
When criminal crypto/money launderer Charlie Shrem was facing federal charges, as a thought experiment about prison he invented "MackerelCoin" which is a pen and paper cryptocurrency backed by tins of mackerel, which his prison consultant said was the primary form of currency.
Two years later he's released from prison camp, and he makes the rounds again with the same thought experiment, claiming that he invented MackerelCoin while doing time.
Despite having a federal record he's still working in the crypto space and just like the Mafia or hells Angels or other gangs serving time has probably buffed his reputation.
Is there a moral here? I don't know, the cryptosphere has a short memory and SBF will be back some day pulling his same old grifts.
posted by muddgirl at 6:23 PM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
Bankman-Fried talked himself into a cell.
I feel like the consensus has been that the evidence had that well covered and testifying was a Hail Mary that was the only possible way he didn’t end up there,
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:24 PM on November 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
I feel like the consensus has been that the evidence had that well covered and testifying was a Hail Mary that was the only possible way he didn’t end up there,
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:24 PM on November 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
(to be specific MackerelCoin wasn't really a cryptocurrency but a distributed ledger.)
posted by muddgirl at 6:24 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 6:24 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I just did the Nelson Muntz HA-ha sound. Fuck that guy: I hope he does fifty years (though I know he probably won't). Both of his parents deserve to do time, as well, imo—and almost certainly won't.
Crypto is terrible, and it can't go away soon enough.
posted by ivanthenotsoterrible at 6:25 PM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
Crypto is terrible, and it can't go away soon enough.
posted by ivanthenotsoterrible at 6:25 PM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
I want to see this guy do time. I'm also uninterested in deep diving into this story and digging for details and reading more and more articles about it. It's important, yes. But I just don't want to follow this particular story.
Anyone with expertise here that can make a rough guess as to how much jail time he'll do, what type of prison, any details? I know it's prognostication, but surely there are knowledgeable people here who can make a very educated guess.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:27 PM on November 2, 2023
Anyone with expertise here that can make a rough guess as to how much jail time he'll do, what type of prison, any details? I know it's prognostication, but surely there are knowledgeable people here who can make a very educated guess.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:27 PM on November 2, 2023
Is this where the schadenfreude goes?
posted by jacquilynne at 6:27 PM on November 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 6:27 PM on November 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
I'm not sure how good he really is at trading different kinds of currency. A throughline in the Michael Lewis book is that SBF sees something that doesn't make sense in market terms and says "Ah ha! A market inefficiency I can exploit!" and doesn't realize until too late that these gaps mostly exist because of regulation or other extraneous factors. E.g., Alameda Research made its money initially by arbitraging a difference in the price between Bitcoin in the U.S. and South Korea. Well the reason that gap existed was currency controls and banking regulations. SBF and his team found legalish grey market means to circumvent those and the regulators let it go for one reason or another.
The other really big one in the book is the election contributions. SBF observes that the amount of money spent on elections is tiny compared to the potential impact of an election win, because of how much money the federal government commands. Therefore, the rational thing to do is invest in election contributions. He went about trying to buy elections, such as by funding dead-eyed psycho Carrick Flynn's run for a U.S. House seat in Oregon, only to lose badly in the primary. For a variety of reasons, you can't exactly just buy elections. He didn't see that.
I don't want to say this is SBF's whole thing cuz there's a lot of things but he's really a guy who has a lot of certainty about things he doesn't understand all the way. It makes him look very smart when he's right and everyone predicted he would fail, but it leads to just totally predictable catastrophic failures like his post indictment media tour.
posted by chrchr at 6:40 PM on November 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
The other really big one in the book is the election contributions. SBF observes that the amount of money spent on elections is tiny compared to the potential impact of an election win, because of how much money the federal government commands. Therefore, the rational thing to do is invest in election contributions. He went about trying to buy elections, such as by funding dead-eyed psycho Carrick Flynn's run for a U.S. House seat in Oregon, only to lose badly in the primary. For a variety of reasons, you can't exactly just buy elections. He didn't see that.
I don't want to say this is SBF's whole thing cuz there's a lot of things but he's really a guy who has a lot of certainty about things he doesn't understand all the way. It makes him look very smart when he's right and everyone predicted he would fail, but it leads to just totally predictable catastrophic failures like his post indictment media tour.
posted by chrchr at 6:40 PM on November 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
I feel like the consensus has been that the evidence had that well covered and testifying was a Hail Mary that was the only possible way he didn’t end up there,
And instead he pretty much guaranteed that a good portion of the remainder of his life will be as an involuntary guest of the United States government. Of course, when he was actively mansplaining to the AUSA on the stand, he was asking for it.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:42 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
And instead he pretty much guaranteed that a good portion of the remainder of his life will be as an involuntary guest of the United States government. Of course, when he was actively mansplaining to the AUSA on the stand, he was asking for it.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:42 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
The case against him was quite solid. His only real chance was to try to riz his way out of it. Didn't work, but it's not what's putting him away.
posted by praemunire at 6:44 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 6:44 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
The best article during the whole thing was probably Elizabeth Lopatto covering the first day of cross-examination for The Verge:
Midway through Sam Bankman-Fried’s cross examination, as prosecutor Danielle Sassoon went through a brutal line of questioning like a hot buzzsaw through a butter cow, I found myself reflecting on how smart the average person is.posted by clawsoon at 6:45 PM on November 2, 2023 [51 favorites]
I agree that his testimony was a hail mary. I feel like his repeated "I do not recall" evasions were worse than nothing. At that point you might as well tell the truth and try to look pitiable and regretful and hope for the best. Tell a good story! People like stories.
posted by chrchr at 6:46 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 6:46 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Will this scatter the Effective Altruism herd? Or will they bleat that he Did It Wrong, and the movement can never fail only be failed by the weak, &c.?
posted by wenestvedt at 6:51 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 6:51 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
I wonder how the parents are going to come out of this. Dad was the "in-house legal counsel" for FTX and his sign-offs were all over most of the arrangements put in place.
Joseph Bankman and Barbara Fried are both Stanford professors.
The most dangerous words in investing, "This time it's different". Nope, it's not - the sorts of returns being touted could only come from a Ponzi scheme.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 6:58 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Joseph Bankman and Barbara Fried are both Stanford professors.
The most dangerous words in investing, "This time it's different". Nope, it's not - the sorts of returns being touted could only come from a Ponzi scheme.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 6:58 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
I was hoping he’d go full Bond villain in the courtroom, ranting about how he stole all that money for the greater good, and all us peons are too stupid to appreciate his genius.
posted by mbrubeck at 7:02 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 7:02 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Jury finds Sam Bankman-Fried guilty.
They didn't even really have to find him. The dude's testimony put a big red google maps flag on it.
posted by srboisvert at 7:05 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
They didn't even really have to find him. The dude's testimony put a big red google maps flag on it.
posted by srboisvert at 7:05 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Alameda Research made its money initially by arbitraging a difference in the price between Bitcoin in the U.S. and South Korea. Well the reason that gap existed was currency controls and banking regulations. SBF and his team found legalish grey market means to circumvent those and the regulators let it go for one reason or another.
Part of that was lying to get Korean and Japanese bank accounts, so crime from the get go. I suppose he wasn’t prosecuted at that point because it seemed like too much trouble for the international cooperation.
At the heart of this is that Bankman-Fried is a white, well-off “very special boy” who seems to have avoided any consequences until his bad behavior was too much to ignore. Probably being told he was an idiot more often would have helped, but here we are.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:07 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Part of that was lying to get Korean and Japanese bank accounts, so crime from the get go. I suppose he wasn’t prosecuted at that point because it seemed like too much trouble for the international cooperation.
At the heart of this is that Bankman-Fried is a white, well-off “very special boy” who seems to have avoided any consequences until his bad behavior was too much to ignore. Probably being told he was an idiot more often would have helped, but here we are.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:07 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
i was absolutely rapt following the trial on a schadenfreude level and because have you seen the rest of the news, have you, have you looked at it? wouldn't you rather be looking at crypto-doofuses betraying an arch-cryptodoofus who just so happened to do a media tour about how good he was at criming the crime he crimed while actually awaiting trial? but my interest just totally deflated the second the world's worst boyfriend, the betrayer of and betrayee by his closest childhood friends, the apple that didn't fall far from the tree, once he took the stand. because watching a dude, even that dude, climb up on a witness stand and commit suicide there was simply too grim.
maybe it proves my commiment to not-prison that i cannot celebrate this stupid stupid stupid stupid man going to prison. suicide by words all out there in public with everyone on his defense team (presumably) begging him not to testify because the only possible outcome would be suicide by words, and oh yes actually incidentally he's already a dead man walking because he went and committed suicide by words all over every podcast he possibly could all the way back last year.
gruesome, like that one guy who shot his own head off on live tv was gruesome.
he should have to never handle money in any amount and have to live off of a teensy-tiny stipend and literally never get to play lol ever again (anyway he sucks at it, it's for his own good) and maybe have to do odd jobs for people but prison's too much, just too much, even for him.
like i know i sound just pious as hell saying this since this dude is a shit just an obvious naked shit of a turd of a man he's martin shkreli minus the patented shkreli charm but also prison's the pits, man, the pits.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:12 PM on November 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
maybe it proves my commiment to not-prison that i cannot celebrate this stupid stupid stupid stupid man going to prison. suicide by words all out there in public with everyone on his defense team (presumably) begging him not to testify because the only possible outcome would be suicide by words, and oh yes actually incidentally he's already a dead man walking because he went and committed suicide by words all over every podcast he possibly could all the way back last year.
gruesome, like that one guy who shot his own head off on live tv was gruesome.
he should have to never handle money in any amount and have to live off of a teensy-tiny stipend and literally never get to play lol ever again (anyway he sucks at it, it's for his own good) and maybe have to do odd jobs for people but prison's too much, just too much, even for him.
like i know i sound just pious as hell saying this since this dude is a shit just an obvious naked shit of a turd of a man he's martin shkreli minus the patented shkreli charm but also prison's the pits, man, the pits.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:12 PM on November 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
It was both kind of schadenfreudalicious-fun and also just a twinge nerve-wracking in the last few days of the trial, since his approach (really, the approach of his whole defense team) seemed so counterproductive that some people were wondering if it was a crazy-like-a-fox gambit to convince at least one juror that SBF couldn't have managed a lemonade stand, let alone a years-long con that tossed billions around like so many bales of Monopoly money. The fact that he roped Michael Lewis into his con--all the second thoughts about him notwithstanding--added to that a little bit.
So, yay, at least a few people remain in the justice system who are willing and able to treat him like an actual adult. Hopefully, that will translate into a decently-long sentence. But I'm reminded that Dan Olson just put out another video, this one about GME cultists, which shows that they liberally borrowed a lot of slang ("diamond hands," "HODL", etc.) from crypto. The virus isn't gone, or even waning particularly, it just mutated into something with slightly different symptoms.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:13 PM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
So, yay, at least a few people remain in the justice system who are willing and able to treat him like an actual adult. Hopefully, that will translate into a decently-long sentence. But I'm reminded that Dan Olson just put out another video, this one about GME cultists, which shows that they liberally borrowed a lot of slang ("diamond hands," "HODL", etc.) from crypto. The virus isn't gone, or even waning particularly, it just mutated into something with slightly different symptoms.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:13 PM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't care for crypto and its fans/promoters/profiteers/grifters, however, what I find significant about this is that as a counter example essentially no one ever got prosecuted for their contributions to the Great Financial Crisis. I'm not sure if the difference is fraud vs legal fraud or if it is outsiders vs establishment but I feel like it reconfirms my cynicism as did the prosecution of Martha Stewart for insider trading.
posted by Pembquist at 7:22 PM on November 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Pembquist at 7:22 PM on November 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
What I thought was really smart about this trial was that it basically had nothing to do with crypto, is was just good ol’ fraud. The prosecution could have gotten lost in crypto weirdness, but they didn’t, because they didn’t have to.
posted by rockindata at 7:42 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by rockindata at 7:42 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
If you're interested in purchasing one, just lift your right buttcheek and fart loudly
This is a perfect example of how the financial markets are closed to those of us without butt cheeks... and all the while, Big Buttock just keeps getting bigger.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:05 PM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
This is a perfect example of how the financial markets are closed to those of us without butt cheeks... and all the while, Big Buttock just keeps getting bigger.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:05 PM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
I really liked Lopatto’s coverage of this trial for The Verge. Can any of you recommend similarly good reporting on the ongoing Trump fraud trial?
posted by oddman at 8:07 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by oddman at 8:07 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
NYAG Tish James has filed suit against the Winklevii
It gives a plaintive vibe to the Winklevii's music.
posted by Arctan at 8:24 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
It gives a plaintive vibe to the Winklevii's music.
posted by Arctan at 8:24 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Good. It is a small ray of sunshine on a bleak landscape. He deserves whatever he ends up getting, the weasel.
IMHO, one of the funniest thing about this trial has been that fake courtroom sketch (potentially AI generated) that somehow made the rounds a few days ago. It says something about style over substance, which is pretty much the essence of SBF vibes...
posted by gemmy at 8:27 PM on November 2, 2023
IMHO, one of the funniest thing about this trial has been that fake courtroom sketch (potentially AI generated) that somehow made the rounds a few days ago. It says something about style over substance, which is pretty much the essence of SBF vibes...
posted by gemmy at 8:27 PM on November 2, 2023
I can recommend Marcy Wheeler as somebody who has been good in covering, among other things, the Trump trial. She was the first person to figure out who was behind the Valerie Plame leak and is ahead of the curve on a lot of topics.
posted by ndr at 8:27 PM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by ndr at 8:27 PM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
but prison's too much, just too much, even for him.
bombastic lowercase pronouncements
No. It's not.
I've seen this reverse-Anatole France sentiment on MetaFilter (“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.") before, and it's truly bizarre, though I can see how you mistakenly get there. You're trying to apply an equal solution to an unequal problem.
The problem with the prison-industrial complex is that it chews up and commodifies the poor, but the rich have the exact opposite problem: they almost never face any actual consequences (read: serious prison time) for their crimes. The rich get fines or toothless consent decrees. They get what you suggest, walking free in the world with some restrictions that somehow never really manage to stick over time and even more somehow seem to find a bunch of money left over.
This is false empathy and is leading you down the wrong path. The only thing that will actually deter the rich is knowing for certain that they will see the inside of a jail cell for decades if they fuck around. Anything less is just the cost of doing business of their crimes.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:51 PM on November 2, 2023 [64 favorites]
bombastic lowercase pronouncements
No. It's not.
I've seen this reverse-Anatole France sentiment on MetaFilter (“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.") before, and it's truly bizarre, though I can see how you mistakenly get there. You're trying to apply an equal solution to an unequal problem.
The problem with the prison-industrial complex is that it chews up and commodifies the poor, but the rich have the exact opposite problem: they almost never face any actual consequences (read: serious prison time) for their crimes. The rich get fines or toothless consent decrees. They get what you suggest, walking free in the world with some restrictions that somehow never really manage to stick over time and even more somehow seem to find a bunch of money left over.
This is false empathy and is leading you down the wrong path. The only thing that will actually deter the rich is knowing for certain that they will see the inside of a jail cell for decades if they fuck around. Anything less is just the cost of doing business of their crimes.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:51 PM on November 2, 2023 [64 favorites]
Unpopular opinion, maybe: I don't think SBF needs to serve longer in prison than murderers in Norway do.
posted by 0xFCAF at 10:16 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by 0xFCAF at 10:16 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Unpopular opinion, maybe: I don't think SBF needs to serve longer in prison than murderers in Norway do.
There's arguably a calculus there. A person who affects a few lives horrifically vs. a person who affects many lives terribly.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:24 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
There's arguably a calculus there. A person who affects a few lives horrifically vs. a person who affects many lives terribly.
Sir Pterry put it wonderfully in Going Postal:
Sir Pterry put it wonderfully in Going Postal:
“Do you understand what I'm saying?" shouted Moist. "You can't just go around killing people!"posted by NoxAeternum at 10:40 PM on November 2, 2023 [66 favorites]
"Why Not? You Do." The golem lowered his arm.
"What?" snapped Moist. "I do not! Who told you that?"
"I Worked It Out. You Have Killed Two Point Three Three Eight People," said the golem calmly.
"I have never laid a finger on anyone in my life, Mr Pump. I may be–– all the things you know I am, but I am not a killer! I have never so much as drawn a sword!"
"No, You Have Not. But You Have Stolen, Embezzled, Defrauded And Swindled Without Discrimination, Mr Lipvig. You Have Ruined Businesses And Destroyed Jobs. When Banks Fail, It Is Seldom Bankers Who Starve. Your Actions Have Taken Money From Those Who Had Little Enough To Begin With. In A Myriad Small Ways You Have Hastened The Deaths Of Many. You Do Not Know Them. You Did Not See Them Bleed. But You Snatched Bread From Their Mouths And Tore Clothes From Their Backs. For Sport, Mr Lipvig. For Sport. For The Joy Of The Game.”
Official statement from Merrick Garland: ”Sam Bankman-Fried thought that he was above the law. Today’s verdict proves he was wrong. This case should send a clear message to anyone who tries to hide their crimes behind a shiny new thing they claim no one else is smart enough to understand: the Justice Department will hold you accountable. I am grateful to the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York and the FBI for their outstanding work in bringing Mr. Bankman-Fried to justice.” [emphasis mine]
Link here.
posted by carmicha at 11:51 PM on November 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
Link here.
posted by carmicha at 11:51 PM on November 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
Buy high, cell low
posted by chavenet at 12:26 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 12:26 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Official statement from Merrick Garland..I find it difficult to overstate how very unwelcome I find pontificating from Merrick Effing Garland concerning the foolishness of anyone believing they are above the law.
posted by Nerd of the North at 12:32 AM on November 3, 2023 [19 favorites]
Unpopular opinion, maybe: I don't think SBF needs to serve longer in prison than murderers in Norway do.
In the abstract, devoid of context, no, of course not. However, SBF is not in Norway, he is in the USA, and while I am fully behind a massive reform of the US prison system, that hasn't yet happened, and in a context where white collar crime is often not taken particularly serially, it might be worth making sure he gets more than a shoplifter or whatever.
This guy - a demographic that are rarely held accountable like others, for a crime which is rarely taken as seriously as others (when done by the right people, of whom SBF is one) is not the place to start for prison reform.
posted by Dysk at 1:33 AM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
In the abstract, devoid of context, no, of course not. However, SBF is not in Norway, he is in the USA, and while I am fully behind a massive reform of the US prison system, that hasn't yet happened, and in a context where white collar crime is often not taken particularly serially, it might be worth making sure he gets more than a shoplifter or whatever.
This guy - a demographic that are rarely held accountable like others, for a crime which is rarely taken as seriously as others (when done by the right people, of whom SBF is one) is not the place to start for prison reform.
posted by Dysk at 1:33 AM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
We started a craze once at school. I was about 11 and had been given a John Bull printing set - the ones with little pictures and rubber letters that you put into a rack with tweezers. We thought it would be good fun to print our own money. It caught on and soon we were buying and selling stuff with it around the school. I remember I got a really nice pencil case and a set of colouring pens in particular. As the craze wore on we printed more and more money, in ever increasing denominations. We ended up owning a whole bunch of stuff, while the other kids were left holding piles of paper. One day the Head called us all in, confiscated all the money and the printing set, made us give all the other kids their stuff back, and put us in detention.
Cryptocurrency? Pah!
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:43 AM on November 3, 2023 [41 favorites]
Cryptocurrency? Pah!
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:43 AM on November 3, 2023 [41 favorites]
There's arguably a calculus there. A person who affects a few lives horrifically vs. a person who affects many lives terribly.
That's about 80,000 years for Mark Zuckerberg, then.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:48 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
That's about 80,000 years for Mark Zuckerberg, then.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:48 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
It’s impossible to cheer anybody going into the US prison system, even such a ridiculous asshat as this, because the US prison system is cruel and ancient and utterly fucking stupid. It’s another example of the things that America has refused to modernise, and gives an example to all the wrong people in the world.
However, there’s something worse. The success rate for federal prosecutions in the USA is staggeringly high. As John Lanchester points out in the LRB (gated)
posted by The River Ivel at 1:58 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
However, there’s something worse. The success rate for federal prosecutions in the USA is staggeringly high. As John Lanchester points out in the LRB (gated)
FTX.com was a company incorporated in Antigua, with headquarters in Hong Kong and then the Bahamas, on whose main exchange US citizens were legally forbidden to trade. Yes, there was a US subsidiary, one of FTX’s 120-odd subsidiary companies, but the grand jury indictment cites the parent company. The prosecution presented as its first witness a representative victim of the FTX collapse. An American victim, for an American fraud trial? No, a French cocoa trader, based in London, who had been attracted to FTX because he had seen an ad featuring Gisele Bündchen. He lost $100,000 in bitcoin. A heartrending tale of woe, obviously, but the basis for a decades-long sentence in a US prison? A non-US citizen dealing with a non-US company whose main business was off-limits to citizens of the US?It’s not hard to imagine a version of this trial happening somewhere else; how loud would American politicians complain if China had arrested, sentenced, and imprisoned a similar trader for the same non-jurisdictional crimes, and then locked them away for decades in a rat infested prison?
posted by The River Ivel at 1:58 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
If we want prisons to become a place we can ethically and humanely put people who can't be trusted among the general populace, a credible threat of putting rich people there would be a faster track to making that happen than probably any other route we could try.
posted by rifflesby at 2:00 AM on November 3, 2023 [70 favorites]
posted by rifflesby at 2:00 AM on November 3, 2023 [70 favorites]
FTX.com was a company incorporated in Antigua
You think this motherfucker lived in Antigua? Avoiding accountability is exactly why you choose dots in the ocean to be your company's home.
Prosecutors hate this one weird trick!!
It's fucking absurd moon-law logic.
posted by adept256 at 2:22 AM on November 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
You think this motherfucker lived in Antigua? Avoiding accountability is exactly why you choose dots in the ocean to be your company's home.
Prosecutors hate this one weird trick!!
It's fucking absurd moon-law logic.
posted by adept256 at 2:22 AM on November 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
It’s not hard to imagine a version of this trial happening somewhere else; how loud would American politicians complain if China had arrested, sentenced, and imprisoned a similar trader for the same non-jurisdictional crimes, and then locked them away for decades in a rat infested prison?
This is an interesting point, though I think that if the "similar trader" were a Chinese national in the way that SBF is a US national there would be very little outcry or even attention paid.
posted by chavenet at 2:35 AM on November 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
This is an interesting point, though I think that if the "similar trader" were a Chinese national in the way that SBF is a US national there would be very little outcry or even attention paid.
posted by chavenet at 2:35 AM on November 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
I have a lot of difficulty imagining what restorative justice even looks like for someone who thinks they're the smartest person in the room and that the correct solution to whatever you're complaining about is to just let them go at it. Like, it's going to take a long time for Sam Bankman-Fried to even acknowledge the magnitude of how badly he fucked up, if he even ever does. Martin Shkreli went to prison and apparently all he learned there was that prison isn't so bad.
posted by Merus at 3:14 AM on November 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Merus at 3:14 AM on November 3, 2023 [11 favorites]
It’s not hard to imagine a version of this trial happening somewhere else; how loud would American politicians complain if China had arrested, sentenced, and imprisoned a similar trader for the same non-jurisdictional crimes, and then locked them away for decades in a rat infested prison?
I, for one, do find it very hard.to imagine as fair and open a trial as this one occurring in China. And if you said Belgium instead, your hypothetical seems much less threatening.
Further, a large tranche of corporate crime is built on the foundation of making businesses non-jurisdictional so that no country's laws (especially the pesky tax laws) affect them, which is the largest theft from the common wealth of humanity in history. It would be nice to start to push back on that foundation, and hopefully erode some of this crime and waste.
FTX was happy to pay the basketball arena located in Miami, United States of America, millions of dollars to brand itself with the name of a business that was, as Lanchester faimts, legally forbidden to operate in the US. That's not because the sign didn't have room for the five letter name of the American subsidiary; it's because FTX was a business marketing in America and the subsidiary was a legal fig leaf to get around the fact that their business was not exactly legal.
It's particularly rich to use the legal fig leaf of which subsidiary was based where to try to defend a man convicted of seven charges of fraud, where the main action of fraud was his complete and direct disregard of corporate boundaries, moving FTX money to the completely separate Alameda.
posted by Superilla at 3:29 AM on November 3, 2023 [22 favorites]
I, for one, do find it very hard.to imagine as fair and open a trial as this one occurring in China. And if you said Belgium instead, your hypothetical seems much less threatening.
Further, a large tranche of corporate crime is built on the foundation of making businesses non-jurisdictional so that no country's laws (especially the pesky tax laws) affect them, which is the largest theft from the common wealth of humanity in history. It would be nice to start to push back on that foundation, and hopefully erode some of this crime and waste.
FTX was happy to pay the basketball arena located in Miami, United States of America, millions of dollars to brand itself with the name of a business that was, as Lanchester faimts, legally forbidden to operate in the US. That's not because the sign didn't have room for the five letter name of the American subsidiary; it's because FTX was a business marketing in America and the subsidiary was a legal fig leaf to get around the fact that their business was not exactly legal.
It's particularly rich to use the legal fig leaf of which subsidiary was based where to try to defend a man convicted of seven charges of fraud, where the main action of fraud was his complete and direct disregard of corporate boundaries, moving FTX money to the completely separate Alameda.
posted by Superilla at 3:29 AM on November 3, 2023 [22 favorites]
One of the most striking thing about the SBF and FTX thing is how young and dumb all the people seem to be. Just... remarkably inexperienced, not particularly intelligent people who got high on their own supply, got way in over their head. Just so so young and dumb.
posted by entropone at 4:38 AM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by entropone at 4:38 AM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
Neither John Lanchester nor I are defending SBF (as I thought I made clear by the phrase “ridiculous asshat”) and it’s clear that a vast amount of crime has, indeed, been committed. However, to make very explicit the subtext of my earlier comment, America - as a nation and as individuals - favour retributive justice because that means they can vengefully punish individuals rather than fix the causes and effects of crime.
posted by The River Ivel at 4:50 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 4:50 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
A good and necessary step for reforming the justice system is for those with the most power to be subject to it, in proportion to the harm they cause, and on the same terms as everyone else.
posted by lookoutbelow at 5:25 AM on November 3, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by lookoutbelow at 5:25 AM on November 3, 2023 [25 favorites]
Can we now hold crypto bros accountable for the enviromental damage their product causes?
posted by nofundy at 5:28 AM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by nofundy at 5:28 AM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
The jury basically went to the bathroom, got a snack, and then voted on each of the charges. Deliberation seems to have been unnecessary.
posted by tommasz at 5:39 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 5:39 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
The feds have a staggeringly good conviction rate mainly because by policy they have the luxury only to go after the most obviously guilty people.
posted by MattD at 5:51 AM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by MattD at 5:51 AM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
Also, because most rational people take a plea deal even if they believe in their own innocence, due to said high conviction rate, variability in sentencing and the staggering costs of putting on a defence.
posted by lookoutbelow at 5:56 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by lookoutbelow at 5:56 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm opposed to retribution as a form of "justice" and I'd much rather we were focused on help to the victims and preventing future crime of the same nature along with some rehab or other means of avoiding recividism by the perpetrators.
However, I cannot agree that we should START that reformation in America's vile criminal justice system with the richest, most priviliged, and most sociopathic criminals that exist.
Let's start by decriminalizing drugs and sex work, let's start by repairing the ongoing devistation the police and courts are wreaking on Black communities and poor communities, let's start by reforming our sytem of justice and the way it works to destroy poor people. Then, after that's been fixed, let's see about being kinder and gentler to the richest, most priviliged, and most harmful criminals around.
So yes, I agree that a vindictive prison sentence for SBF is bad. In a proper system he wouldn't spend any time in prison and his penalties would be entirely focused on prohibiting him from participating in finance and business in general for the rest of his life along with confiscation of his wealth to repay his creditors and so on.
But given the system as it exists for everyone else, I cannot agree that we should take that approach with him while poor Black men are being thrown in prison for life after writing three bad checks.
I'd also suggest that, more generally, this entire sordid affair is more proof that we need some truly revolutionary changes in how we regulate business, especially international business, and that we should start treating all cryptocurrency as a scam and just ban it entirely. Make possession of crypto a felony and treate it like we do child pornography.
On the business side, I'd say we're looking at yet more evidence that all corporate entities should be required to have 100% open finances down to the last penny spent on paperclips. Put the books online so everyone can see them rather than letting them keep it secret.
posted by sotonohito at 6:05 AM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
However, I cannot agree that we should START that reformation in America's vile criminal justice system with the richest, most priviliged, and most sociopathic criminals that exist.
Let's start by decriminalizing drugs and sex work, let's start by repairing the ongoing devistation the police and courts are wreaking on Black communities and poor communities, let's start by reforming our sytem of justice and the way it works to destroy poor people. Then, after that's been fixed, let's see about being kinder and gentler to the richest, most priviliged, and most harmful criminals around.
So yes, I agree that a vindictive prison sentence for SBF is bad. In a proper system he wouldn't spend any time in prison and his penalties would be entirely focused on prohibiting him from participating in finance and business in general for the rest of his life along with confiscation of his wealth to repay his creditors and so on.
But given the system as it exists for everyone else, I cannot agree that we should take that approach with him while poor Black men are being thrown in prison for life after writing three bad checks.
I'd also suggest that, more generally, this entire sordid affair is more proof that we need some truly revolutionary changes in how we regulate business, especially international business, and that we should start treating all cryptocurrency as a scam and just ban it entirely. Make possession of crypto a felony and treate it like we do child pornography.
On the business side, I'd say we're looking at yet more evidence that all corporate entities should be required to have 100% open finances down to the last penny spent on paperclips. Put the books online so everyone can see them rather than letting them keep it secret.
posted by sotonohito at 6:05 AM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
(If you want to learn more about crypto and Sam Bankman-Fried, and you're considering reading Michael Lewis' book, I recommend you instead read Zeke Faux's Number Go Up (excerpt).)
posted by box at 6:09 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by box at 6:09 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Personally I wish people would stop calling him 'SBF'.
I mean, who calls L. Ron Hubbard 'LRH'?
posted by Cardinal Fang at 6:17 AM on November 3, 2023
I mean, who calls L. Ron Hubbard 'LRH'?
posted by Cardinal Fang at 6:17 AM on November 3, 2023
I have to admit I was disappointed in SBFs testimony. I was hoping for some rousing Randian end-of-The-Fountainhead speech where he would try to convince the Jury that any illegal acts he performed were for a higher purpose and his only regret was not frauding harder for the betterment of mankind. Then everyone would clap and the jury would buy him dinner.
It turns out that real life is different and now SBF will be spending a large portion of his life serving at Uncle Sam's (and a lot of other people's) pleasure.
posted by AndrewStephens at 6:17 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
It turns out that real life is different and now SBF will be spending a large portion of his life serving at Uncle Sam's (and a lot of other people's) pleasure.
posted by AndrewStephens at 6:17 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
However, to make very explicit the subtext of my earlier comment, America - as a nation and as individuals - favour retributive justice because that means they can vengefully punish individuals rather than fix the causes and effects of crime.
I think that where we disagree is in the treatment of "crime" in the US justice system as a monolithic entity. I believe that there are a lot of crimes (see: nonviolent drug offences, petty theft, being homeless) that are frequently and harshly punished in the system; increasing the harshness of sentencing makes no sense at all, and I believe we agree that the best solution to these is diverting resources from punishing these people into reducing the poverty that causes the majority of these crimes.
But I also believe that there are a lot of crimes, including most white collar crimes (but not exclusively -- see also crimes committed by law enforcement officials, crimes committed by motorists) that are almost entirely unpunished. White collar criminals in particular are capable of doing the math that they stand to make a billion dollars from whatever crime and on the off chance that they are prosecuted, they are most likely to face a fine that is a fraction of what they have stolen. I think that for these types of crimes, it is likely that the people who are committing them are doing so in part because they believe -- rationally -- that it is unlikely they will face consequences. And in these cases, I believe that increasing the likelihood that they will face more serious consequences will reduce the amount of crime.
Sam Bankman-Fried is a man born to almost every privilege it is possible to have, and these privileges enabled him to spend years clocking in every day, 80 hours a week, to personally and directly conduct one of the largest frauds in history, and he has made it pretty clear that he thinks the primary thing he did wrong was to get caught. I hope you'll forgive me for thinking this case is not the one to use as a springboard to talk about what happens to unhoused people who get popped for loitering.
posted by Superilla at 6:20 AM on November 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
I think that where we disagree is in the treatment of "crime" in the US justice system as a monolithic entity. I believe that there are a lot of crimes (see: nonviolent drug offences, petty theft, being homeless) that are frequently and harshly punished in the system; increasing the harshness of sentencing makes no sense at all, and I believe we agree that the best solution to these is diverting resources from punishing these people into reducing the poverty that causes the majority of these crimes.
But I also believe that there are a lot of crimes, including most white collar crimes (but not exclusively -- see also crimes committed by law enforcement officials, crimes committed by motorists) that are almost entirely unpunished. White collar criminals in particular are capable of doing the math that they stand to make a billion dollars from whatever crime and on the off chance that they are prosecuted, they are most likely to face a fine that is a fraction of what they have stolen. I think that for these types of crimes, it is likely that the people who are committing them are doing so in part because they believe -- rationally -- that it is unlikely they will face consequences. And in these cases, I believe that increasing the likelihood that they will face more serious consequences will reduce the amount of crime.
Sam Bankman-Fried is a man born to almost every privilege it is possible to have, and these privileges enabled him to spend years clocking in every day, 80 hours a week, to personally and directly conduct one of the largest frauds in history, and he has made it pretty clear that he thinks the primary thing he did wrong was to get caught. I hope you'll forgive me for thinking this case is not the one to use as a springboard to talk about what happens to unhoused people who get popped for loitering.
posted by Superilla at 6:20 AM on November 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
Yeah, I'm tired of all the three letter abbreviations of people's names, too. Like, why is everyone on my feed so excited about Harry R Truman? Dude got buried by a volcano like half a century ago
posted by phooky at 6:25 AM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by phooky at 6:25 AM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Yeah, why don't villains have boring names like Mike or Mr Johnson.
posted by adept256 at 6:29 AM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 6:29 AM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Stipulated: 1) crypto is bad. 2) Bankman-Fried lied and stole.
But - and I've only read about 0.1 percent of the coverage, so I could be missing something - the two seem only tangentially related. Just like Levi-Strauss made money in the gold rush by selling to the miners, it seems like there was plenty of room for someplace like FTX to make money by charging fees to crypto traders regardless of which way the market was going. If FTX had been truly independent from Alameda, would FTX have had any problems? I understand that the lightly regulated atmosphere and general insanity of the crypto world made the theft from FTX more feasible, but it seems like there was room for Bankman-Fried to profit by simply running the casino and taking a cut if he hadn't gotten arrogant and greedy.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:33 AM on November 3, 2023
But - and I've only read about 0.1 percent of the coverage, so I could be missing something - the two seem only tangentially related. Just like Levi-Strauss made money in the gold rush by selling to the miners, it seems like there was plenty of room for someplace like FTX to make money by charging fees to crypto traders regardless of which way the market was going. If FTX had been truly independent from Alameda, would FTX have had any problems? I understand that the lightly regulated atmosphere and general insanity of the crypto world made the theft from FTX more feasible, but it seems like there was room for Bankman-Fried to profit by simply running the casino and taking a cut if he hadn't gotten arrogant and greedy.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:33 AM on November 3, 2023
If people are stealing bread to feed their families, the way to prevent that crime is to give them bread. John Winthrop, the same guy who coined the "city on a hill" language that every politician in the US is so fond of quoting, once mused that he had "cured" someone of firewood thievery by letting the accused freely take firewood from his own supply until the thief had enough to stay warm.
I don't know how to similarly prevent people from stealing money if they already have money.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:37 AM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
I don't know how to similarly prevent people from stealing money if they already have money.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:37 AM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
In theory, it should be possible to run a crypto exchange honestly by charging fees for trading, raking in some small interest on the float, and selling trading data to big traders, just like stockbrokers do.
However, since the whole space is an unregulated cesspool, such a hypothetical exchange would quickly find itself out competed by a dozen exchanges offering better deals to traders. No honest exchange can compete so no honest exchanges exist.
posted by AndrewStephens at 6:41 AM on November 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
However, since the whole space is an unregulated cesspool, such a hypothetical exchange would quickly find itself out competed by a dozen exchanges offering better deals to traders. No honest exchange can compete so no honest exchanges exist.
posted by AndrewStephens at 6:41 AM on November 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
SBF seemed like a human LLM-- he had the ability to sound plausible to people who weren't paying close attention.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:50 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:50 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
I am gratified to see that my perception of real world effective altruism was completely correct - that it was functionally a symptom of this type of guy's vanity, stupidity, coerciveness and general spoiled character, all of which were pretty much due to his social position as a child of extremely privileged people who receive a lot of cultural deference. Never forget that in addition to being a greedy, creepy thief, this is a guy who thought that he deserved to run the world via "effective altruism" and make decisions for all the lesser people out there like you and me.
Whenever I read about his parents feeling bad, I cheer in my heart. You should feel bad, and maybe you too will be prosecuted! Normally I do not feel this way about the parents of people who do even quite terrible things, but there's such a clear line here.
posted by Frowner at 7:03 AM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
Whenever I read about his parents feeling bad, I cheer in my heart. You should feel bad, and maybe you too will be prosecuted! Normally I do not feel this way about the parents of people who do even quite terrible things, but there's such a clear line here.
posted by Frowner at 7:03 AM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
He's 31yo. Sure his parents raised him as a golden boy, but he's still an adult and has been for a while.
There's a universe where he still lives with his parents, and is eating a poptart in his underpants right now. In that universe the parents wonder where they went wrong.
posted by adept256 at 7:44 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
There's a universe where he still lives with his parents, and is eating a poptart in his underpants right now. In that universe the parents wonder where they went wrong.
posted by adept256 at 7:44 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
A non-US citizen dealing with a non-US company whose main business was off-limits to citizens of the US?
Lanchester has always set himself up as a literary guy who nonetheless understands finance and the law around it, so he should know that the extraterritoriality doctrine around financial fraud is actually extremely favorable to defendants. SBF defrauded U.S.-based customers, lenders, and investors he communicated with in the United States. If this is something Lanchester didn't understand, nothing stopping him from doing some reading.
posted by praemunire at 7:51 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lanchester has always set himself up as a literary guy who nonetheless understands finance and the law around it, so he should know that the extraterritoriality doctrine around financial fraud is actually extremely favorable to defendants. SBF defrauded U.S.-based customers, lenders, and investors he communicated with in the United States. If this is something Lanchester didn't understand, nothing stopping him from doing some reading.
posted by praemunire at 7:51 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Whenever I read about a trial, and there are a lot of them right now, I immediately think of the poor jurors. And I say this having just spend two and half weeks empaneled in a criminal case. My god being on a jury is so boring. Yeah yeah duty, service, justice whatever. Just poor one out for any juror sitting on a long-ass case.
posted by misterpatrick at 7:53 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by misterpatrick at 7:53 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have a lot of difficulty imagining what restorative justice even looks like for someone who thinks they're the smartest person in the room and that the correct solution to whatever you're complaining about is to just let them go at it.
Restorative justice must start with contrition - with the person involved acknowledging the totality of their misconduct. Without that, restorative justice will not work, as the foundation for the process is missing.
And the reality here is that a large cause of this crime comes down to Bankman-Fried thinking he would never be caught, and if he was that all he'd have to do is "explain", and all would be right. Holding him accountable with real consequences like incarceration is addressing that cause.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:57 AM on November 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
Restorative justice must start with contrition - with the person involved acknowledging the totality of their misconduct. Without that, restorative justice will not work, as the foundation for the process is missing.
And the reality here is that a large cause of this crime comes down to Bankman-Fried thinking he would never be caught, and if he was that all he'd have to do is "explain", and all would be right. Holding him accountable with real consequences like incarceration is addressing that cause.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:57 AM on November 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
If FTX had been truly independent from Alameda, would FTX have had any problems?Yes. Alameda was used as slush to hide losses on FTX, though those losses were relatively small compared to the giant hole in the balance sheet.
FTX offered trading on margin and futures and all of that risky stuff that has blown up a lot of previous exchanges. They claimed to have an innovative risk engine that made it safe for the exchange to detect and liquidate negative positions. That was mostly not true. Mostly they just dumped those positions into Alameda. The gains showed up in FTX's balance sheet and the losses on Alameda's and that worked fine as long as Alameda could hide the losses behind a lot of "number go up".
posted by chrchr at 8:01 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
As for referring to him by initials rather than his name, for me the simple answer is laziness and a desire not to appear ignorant by misspelling his name. I had to look in the thread to know it was Sam Bankman-Fried and I'll admit that I was prepared to spell it Sam Bankmann Freed before I did. So out of sheer, unremitting, laziness and the fact that I don't really care about him, I just went with his initials because it was easier than spending five seconds figuring out how to spell his name.
And now I've spent several minutes explaining why I chose to save five seconds....
posted by sotonohito at 8:08 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
And now I've spent several minutes explaining why I chose to save five seconds....
posted by sotonohito at 8:08 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Surprising number of people in Forbes 30 under 30 list have run into trouble with the law
Level of "surprising" may vary.
posted by RobotHero at 8:42 AM on November 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
Level of "surprising" may vary.
posted by RobotHero at 8:42 AM on November 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
The jury basically went to the bathroom, got a snack, and then voted on each of the charges. Deliberation seems to have been unnecessary.
I spent more time last night trying to figure out where to eat in Hells Kitchen after missing my bus than the jury needed in this case.
posted by thecaddy at 8:46 AM on November 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
I spent more time last night trying to figure out where to eat in Hells Kitchen after missing my bus than the jury needed in this case.
posted by thecaddy at 8:46 AM on November 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
Crypto Clown loses Coin Crown, Online Town Frowns.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:20 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:20 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't know - the sentiment online from my perspective has been "and the peasants rejoiced."
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:54 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:54 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
thecaddy - where did you eat in Hells Kitchen? I've been a fan of Ariana Afghan Kebab for a very long time but I rarely get to Hells Kitchen any more.
posted by moonmilk at 11:02 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by moonmilk at 11:02 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the SBF thing, I don't care that people do it (You do you, ya know?) I find it really annoying that the media is doing it just because, "that's what he prefers and that's what everyone calls him. Follow the rules of your style sheet!
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 12:14 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 12:14 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The other connection that wasn't the subject of the trial is that the possibility that Alameda engaged in market manipulation here and there to support prices, which correspondingly would increase how appealing FTX was for consumers.
Also, Alameda's holdings and trading of "Samcoins", including FTT which was functionally similar to stock in FTX, would have increased FTX's valuation, at least of itself I think. And propping up the price of same allowed them to perpetuate the belief that the value of the assets held by FTX and Alameda collectively didn't put the platform at risk.
So, in my view, dynamics particular to crypto are a big part of the overall narrative even though the prosecution, for good reasons, focused on very basic and universal types of fraud.
posted by lookoutbelow at 12:34 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also, Alameda's holdings and trading of "Samcoins", including FTT which was functionally similar to stock in FTX, would have increased FTX's valuation, at least of itself I think. And propping up the price of same allowed them to perpetuate the belief that the value of the assets held by FTX and Alameda collectively didn't put the platform at risk.
So, in my view, dynamics particular to crypto are a big part of the overall narrative even though the prosecution, for good reasons, focused on very basic and universal types of fraud.
posted by lookoutbelow at 12:34 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
i believe that ultimately all rich people in the world — for people keeping track of influences, i’ve lifted this from the pre-revolution bolshevik sci-fi novelist alexander bogdanov — ultimately must be given the following choice. either:
basically, watching a man die, or even enter into a life that’s good as death, is an experience never unmixed with sorrow, even if that man is a villain and even if the man is a particularly stupid form of villain.
with regard to punishing him for the sake of punishing him for the sake of encouraging the other rich to follow laws, i don’t think that’s effective for a couple of reasons. first, he wasn’t born to great wealth; he was born to star-level academic parents human-scale wealth, and used crimes to try to upjump himself into rich as croesus wealth, with many of these crimes committed against people who were already within the rich as croesus inner circle. throwing him in the oubliette is more likely a relief to the real rich rather than a warning.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:23 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
- relinquish all ownership over productive property and accept a lifelong stipend that is so large that you can have a life of total leisure and any luxury you can dream of, but you can’t pass any of it along to your kids, or else
- kindly stand against that wall over there, if you’d like a blindfold you can have one
basically, watching a man die, or even enter into a life that’s good as death, is an experience never unmixed with sorrow, even if that man is a villain and even if the man is a particularly stupid form of villain.
with regard to punishing him for the sake of punishing him for the sake of encouraging the other rich to follow laws, i don’t think that’s effective for a couple of reasons. first, he wasn’t born to great wealth; he was born to star-level academic parents human-scale wealth, and used crimes to try to upjump himself into rich as croesus wealth, with many of these crimes committed against people who were already within the rich as croesus inner circle. throwing him in the oubliette is more likely a relief to the real rich rather than a warning.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:23 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
You think this motherfucker lived in Antigua?
Yes, didn't he? In a weird group house with a bunch of co-conspirators. Not quite sure how that matters . . .
posted by aspersioncast at 2:29 PM on November 3, 2023
Yes, didn't he? In a weird group house with a bunch of co-conspirators. Not quite sure how that matters . . .
posted by aspersioncast at 2:29 PM on November 3, 2023
The weird group house was in Barbados.
It does matter when defenders are trying to claim that the US can't prosecute US citizens for crimes because their companies are incorporated overseas.
posted by muddgirl at 2:34 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
It does matter when defenders are trying to claim that the US can't prosecute US citizens for crimes because their companies are incorporated overseas.
posted by muddgirl at 2:34 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
BAHAMAS. Shit I just looked that up too.
posted by muddgirl at 2:35 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 2:35 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
basically, watching a man die, or even enter into a life that’s good as death, is an experience never unmixed with sorrow, even if that man is a villain and even if the man is a particularly stupid form of villain.
Yes, but said sorrow is severely tempered for me by the fact that all that is falling on his head is due to his own actions. He was repeatedly given chances to avert from this ignoble end, and yet he refused, thinking he could turn it around if he could just hold out, while never once doing more than putting a thin veneer on his contempt for people deining to hold him accountable. These consequences were purely of his own making, and thus the responsibility for them solely rests on his shoulders.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:54 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes, but said sorrow is severely tempered for me by the fact that all that is falling on his head is due to his own actions. He was repeatedly given chances to avert from this ignoble end, and yet he refused, thinking he could turn it around if he could just hold out, while never once doing more than putting a thin veneer on his contempt for people deining to hold him accountable. These consequences were purely of his own making, and thus the responsibility for them solely rests on his shoulders.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:54 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Shh, everyone pipe down. I'm trying to listen to the explanation for why this is Good For BitCoin.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:20 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 3:20 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
One commonality of a lot of ponzi schemes is people feel like they're under pressure to deliver so they'll just slightly fudge the books, fully intending to fill the hole later. Except once you start, it's hard to stop and that one million in the red then becomes ten million - pretty soon you're talking real money.
I have a relative who used to work in financial regulation and by his account the vast majority of white-collar crime is never caught. Most of of the tip-offs they received were from disgruntled (ex) spouses.
posted by ndr at 4:09 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
I have a relative who used to work in financial regulation and by his account the vast majority of white-collar crime is never caught. Most of of the tip-offs they received were from disgruntled (ex) spouses.
posted by ndr at 4:09 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Interesting how our perception of something/someone on one day can be "genius" but another day be the complete opposite. It makes me think if there's anything I know about this world that is real/factual or not.
posted by atpuga at 5:24 AM on November 4, 2023
posted by atpuga at 5:24 AM on November 4, 2023
The perception of Bankman-Fried as "genius" was very carefully cultivated, though. And even then, there were a lot of people calling bullshit on it (see also: prior threads on "effective altruism".)
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:38 AM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:38 AM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
The low-grade, sorry-ass purported "geniuses" of the twenty-first century are a genuine embarrassment.
posted by praemunire at 10:45 AM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 10:45 AM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
The urge some people have to declare any sufficiently self aggrandizing asshole who bought his way into tech, to be a genius is really weird and dangeorus.
Is the Tony Stark model really so burned into the popular mindset that all it takes is being rich, some bragging, being a visibly self centered asshole, and using some technobabble is all it actually takes to be labeled as a genius? They said Steve Jobs was a genius too, right up until he geniused his way to dying from one of the most treatable forms of cancer that exists because he bought his own hype.
I don't think it's even that people are gullible, it's that people WANT to be fooled. The desire to have someone, anyone, better than us in charge is strong in a lot of people. They see how messed up they are, how often they mess up, how easy it is for organizations run by regular people to mess up, and rather than concluding that what we need are better error handling mechanisms and mutual support so person A can fill the gaps in person B's expertise and vice versa, they conclude that what we need is some god king type figure who is just plain better than us plebes.
I think its related to goldbuggery and the crypto obsession. People mess up, money is important, so the solution is to take people out of money and make money be this external, hypothetically objective, thing that no one can mess up. It can't actually work, but I can see how a certain sort of person who doesn't really think very hard about it might imagine it could.
The actual solution of messy, annoying meetings and politics and regulation just isn't sexy and it goes against the libertarian bro idea that regulation is inherently bad. They want the easy, top down, sort of solution.
I'm pretty sure the urge to turn Musk, and Bankman-Fried, into geniuses is related to the same urge that right wingers have for a "strong leader". Which lead them to turn Donald Trump, of all people, into the cult figure that could fill that role.
Probably the just world belief is in there too somewhere. Bankman-Fried got rich so therefore he MUST be worthy of that wealth and power. Otherwise the world wouldn't be just.
posted by sotonohito at 11:56 AM on November 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
Is the Tony Stark model really so burned into the popular mindset that all it takes is being rich, some bragging, being a visibly self centered asshole, and using some technobabble is all it actually takes to be labeled as a genius? They said Steve Jobs was a genius too, right up until he geniused his way to dying from one of the most treatable forms of cancer that exists because he bought his own hype.
I don't think it's even that people are gullible, it's that people WANT to be fooled. The desire to have someone, anyone, better than us in charge is strong in a lot of people. They see how messed up they are, how often they mess up, how easy it is for organizations run by regular people to mess up, and rather than concluding that what we need are better error handling mechanisms and mutual support so person A can fill the gaps in person B's expertise and vice versa, they conclude that what we need is some god king type figure who is just plain better than us plebes.
I think its related to goldbuggery and the crypto obsession. People mess up, money is important, so the solution is to take people out of money and make money be this external, hypothetically objective, thing that no one can mess up. It can't actually work, but I can see how a certain sort of person who doesn't really think very hard about it might imagine it could.
The actual solution of messy, annoying meetings and politics and regulation just isn't sexy and it goes against the libertarian bro idea that regulation is inherently bad. They want the easy, top down, sort of solution.
I'm pretty sure the urge to turn Musk, and Bankman-Fried, into geniuses is related to the same urge that right wingers have for a "strong leader". Which lead them to turn Donald Trump, of all people, into the cult figure that could fill that role.
Probably the just world belief is in there too somewhere. Bankman-Fried got rich so therefore he MUST be worthy of that wealth and power. Otherwise the world wouldn't be just.
posted by sotonohito at 11:56 AM on November 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
(If you want to learn more about crypto and Sam Bankman-Fried, and you're considering reading Michael Lewis' book
I know it’s very secondary to all this, but kind of hoping between this and the revelations about the nature of the family relationship from The Blind Side, that Lewis goes and has a long, hard look at himself.
posted by nubs at 2:00 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I know it’s very secondary to all this, but kind of hoping between this and the revelations about the nature of the family relationship from The Blind Side, that Lewis goes and has a long, hard look at himself.
posted by nubs at 2:00 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Michael Lewis should be embarrassed. He probably won't be, but he should be.
I read the book and the Zeke Faux book and I've occasionally listened to his podcast since the trial began out of morbid curiosity (though its somewhat intolerable and I turned it off several times).
It's classic motivated reasoning. He liked the guy, or at least found him interesting, he believed he has "full access" and SBF "never lied to him" before the shit publically hit the fan. He had a nearly finished book casting SBF as the scrappy underdog misunderstood genius. And then ever since has seemed to tune out the voluminous evidence to the contrary.
The tacked-on chapter to the book speculating the money's all there still somehow, the bankruptcy lawyers are conflicted, the trustee doesn't understand the business, and the principals who plead guilty did so even though they were not, all while ignoring the voluminous evidence against these propositions is embarassing. The pre-release podcasts where he seemed tied to reality then flipped to credulity when trying to promote the book on release was embarrassing. The constantly shifting explanations during the trial are embarassing. His showing no apparent understanding of the legal issues is embarassing.
But if you're a celebrated author surrounded by devoted acolytes you don't need to be embarrassed, I guess.
posted by lookoutbelow at 3:29 AM on November 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
I read the book and the Zeke Faux book and I've occasionally listened to his podcast since the trial began out of morbid curiosity (though its somewhat intolerable and I turned it off several times).
It's classic motivated reasoning. He liked the guy, or at least found him interesting, he believed he has "full access" and SBF "never lied to him" before the shit publically hit the fan. He had a nearly finished book casting SBF as the scrappy underdog misunderstood genius. And then ever since has seemed to tune out the voluminous evidence to the contrary.
The tacked-on chapter to the book speculating the money's all there still somehow, the bankruptcy lawyers are conflicted, the trustee doesn't understand the business, and the principals who plead guilty did so even though they were not, all while ignoring the voluminous evidence against these propositions is embarassing. The pre-release podcasts where he seemed tied to reality then flipped to credulity when trying to promote the book on release was embarrassing. The constantly shifting explanations during the trial are embarassing. His showing no apparent understanding of the legal issues is embarassing.
But if you're a celebrated author surrounded by devoted acolytes you don't need to be embarrassed, I guess.
posted by lookoutbelow at 3:29 AM on November 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
I saw an interview with Michael Lewis, and he didn't seem embarrassed at all.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:09 AM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:09 AM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
what I find significant about this is that as a counter example essentially no one ever got prosecuted for their contributions to the Great Financial Crisis. I'm not sure if the difference is fraud vs legal fraud or if it is outsiders vs establishment
The difference is that the financial sector has its tendrils deeply entwined in every aspect of society while bitcoin mostly just buys you illicit stuff or ape jpegs. The real finance boys know that if they have problems it is everyone's problem. Bitcoiner problems are only problems for bitcoiners at this point so they have no suicide switch that can blow up the entire economy like the real finance sector do.
posted by srboisvert at 11:17 AM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
The difference is that the financial sector has its tendrils deeply entwined in every aspect of society while bitcoin mostly just buys you illicit stuff or ape jpegs. The real finance boys know that if they have problems it is everyone's problem. Bitcoiner problems are only problems for bitcoiners at this point so they have no suicide switch that can blow up the entire economy like the real finance sector do.
posted by srboisvert at 11:17 AM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
The difference is that the financial sector has its tendrils deeply entwined in every aspect of society while bitcoin mostly just buys you illicit stuff or ape jpegs.
And, notably, most governments are working really hard to block crypto access to central banks, if not banking entirely. Because banks linked to crypto have high rates of implosion, and no one except extremely stupid libertarians* want a return to late-19th C bank implosions and rolling depressions.
* Or those deeply invested in crypto, but those groups are pretty much identical.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:42 AM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
And, notably, most governments are working really hard to block crypto access to central banks, if not banking entirely. Because banks linked to crypto have high rates of implosion, and no one except extremely stupid libertarians* want a return to late-19th C bank implosions and rolling depressions.
* Or those deeply invested in crypto, but those groups are pretty much identical.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:42 AM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
The only thing that will actually deter the rich is knowing for certain that they will see the inside of a jail cell for decades if they fuck around.
The problem is, as with all criminals, they never believe they'll actually be caught. Prison is no deterance unless people believe they'll be caught.
posted by dg at 3:43 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
The problem is, as with all criminals, they never believe they'll actually be caught. Prison is no deterance unless people believe they'll be caught.
posted by dg at 3:43 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
In the New Statesman, an update on the fallout of this debacle within the effective altruism movement: Sam Bankman-Fried and the effective altruism delusion.
posted by chrchr at 4:37 PM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 4:37 PM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
> Nancy Lebovitz: "I saw an interview with Michael Lewis, and he didn't seem embarrassed at all."
This was definitely the case with the raft of interviews he did promoting his book near the beginning of October, just as the trial was starting. However, I am very, very curious to see if he's still as confident in his assessment of SBF (and his dismissal of critics) now that the trial is over. I think I saw from one of the accounts that was live-tweeting the trial that Lewis was present in the courtroom on at least one of the days. I would be very interested to hear Lewis explain SBF's performance under cross-examination.
posted by mhum at 11:56 AM on November 7, 2023
This was definitely the case with the raft of interviews he did promoting his book near the beginning of October, just as the trial was starting. However, I am very, very curious to see if he's still as confident in his assessment of SBF (and his dismissal of critics) now that the trial is over. I think I saw from one of the accounts that was live-tweeting the trial that Lewis was present in the courtroom on at least one of the days. I would be very interested to hear Lewis explain SBF's performance under cross-examination.
posted by mhum at 11:56 AM on November 7, 2023
I would be very interested to hear Lewis explain SBF's performance under cross-examination.
I would imagine he would say that Bankman-Fried got blindsided by the prosecution.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:11 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would imagine he would say that Bankman-Fried got blindsided by the prosecution.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:11 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Over at Philosophy Tube, Abigail Thorn did a video about Effective Alturism a while back. She wasn't impressed and had some pretty interesting criticisms.
posted by sotonohito at 1:04 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by sotonohito at 1:04 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would imagine he would say that Bankman-Fried got blindsided by the prosecution.
Bankman-Fried tried to play liar's poker, but the judge was playing moneyball, and now Bankman-Fried is hoping that his sentence will be the big short.
posted by box at 1:44 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Bankman-Fried tried to play liar's poker, but the judge was playing moneyball, and now Bankman-Fried is hoping that his sentence will be the big short.
posted by box at 1:44 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
one thing that can at least partially inoculate one from the "tech industry tony stark genius!11!1!11!" disease is to always remember that there is no such thing as a genius in a general sense, there's just people who are good at specific thing.
like, for example, jim henson was undeniably a genius in a ton of domains, but a damned fool in the field of not being so self-effacing that you don't go to the doctor when you're dying because you think you going to the doctor while you're dying might mildly inconvenience someone else. and like steve jobs was a genius at promotion and terrible in the field of not getting so high on your own supply that you kill yourself with woo.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:10 AM on November 8, 2023
like, for example, jim henson was undeniably a genius in a ton of domains, but a damned fool in the field of not being so self-effacing that you don't go to the doctor when you're dying because you think you going to the doctor while you're dying might mildly inconvenience someone else. and like steve jobs was a genius at promotion and terrible in the field of not getting so high on your own supply that you kill yourself with woo.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:10 AM on November 8, 2023
> bombastic lowercase pronouncements: "always remember that there is no such thing as a genius in a general sense, there's just people who are good at specific thing."
My go-to analogy for this is Michael Jordan: one of the greatest basketball players ever to play the game had a .202 batting average in a single unremarkable season of AA minor league baseball (tbc, still better at baseball than 99% of the general population, but worse than 99% of actual major league players). If physical abilities don't translate automatically like that, why would we think mental abilities would?
posted by mhum at 11:09 AM on November 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
My go-to analogy for this is Michael Jordan: one of the greatest basketball players ever to play the game had a .202 batting average in a single unremarkable season of AA minor league baseball (tbc, still better at baseball than 99% of the general population, but worse than 99% of actual major league players). If physical abilities don't translate automatically like that, why would we think mental abilities would?
posted by mhum at 11:09 AM on November 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
And now it's Binance's turn as the company pleads guilty to violating anti-money laundering laws and sanctions, with the company paying a $4.3B fine, and CEO Changpeng Zhao on the hook personally for $50M along with resigning from his position.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:34 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:34 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
And now it's Binance's turn as the company pleads guilty to violating anti-money laundering laws and sanctions, with the company paying a $4.3B fine, and CEO Changpeng Zhao on the hook personally for $50M along with resigning from his position.
Wait, is he the guy who has been gloating how much better he is than SBF this whole time? "Funds are safu" guy?
posted by clawsoon at 4:15 AM on November 22, 2023
Wait, is he the guy who has been gloating how much better he is than SBF this whole time? "Funds are safu" guy?
posted by clawsoon at 4:15 AM on November 22, 2023
Yep. I imagine that two things caused the change in tune:
* The speed at which Bankman-Fried was convicted, showing that a "flood the zone with shit" strategy wouldn't work, and
* One of the charges against Binance was providing an endrun around sanctions to Hamas.
Between the two, I imagine that gave Zhao an inkling of how badly a trial would go.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:54 AM on November 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
* The speed at which Bankman-Fried was convicted, showing that a "flood the zone with shit" strategy wouldn't work, and
* One of the charges against Binance was providing an endrun around sanctions to Hamas.
Between the two, I imagine that gave Zhao an inkling of how badly a trial would go.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:54 AM on November 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wait, is he the guy who has been gloating how much better he is than SBF this whole time? "Funds are safu" guy?
To be fair, maybe the funds are safe. This is an exciting different crime!
posted by Dysk at 10:10 AM on November 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
To be fair, maybe the funds are safe. This is an exciting different crime!
posted by Dysk at 10:10 AM on November 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
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