Merchant of Death
November 3, 2023 8:15 AM Subscribe
"He presented himself as an enlightened humanist, offering the option of a dignified death to those who had no other recourse." (slToronto life)
CW: suicide
Man, this wrecked me. I knew it was going to. My heart aches for those were in such pain and/or hopelesssness. I dearly hope that the families can find some peace.
For people in the US:
Crisis Text Line Text HOME to 741741
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1-800-273-8255
Trans Lifeline 1-877-565-8860 (for the transgender community)
TrevorLifeline 1-866-488-7386 (for LGBTQ youth)
Veterans Crisis Line 1-800-273-8255, Press 1
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 9:37 AM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
For people in the US:
Crisis Text Line Text HOME to 741741
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1-800-273-8255
Trans Lifeline 1-877-565-8860 (for the transgender community)
TrevorLifeline 1-866-488-7386 (for LGBTQ youth)
Veterans Crisis Line 1-800-273-8255, Press 1
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 9:37 AM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
Best kind of eponysterical there, BigHeartedGuy.
posted by AdamCSnider at 10:12 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by AdamCSnider at 10:12 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
That was a hard read. Thanks for the post, Kitteh. I remember that guy being arrested and wondered what was going on with him. A few things from the article really hit me.
From one parent: Kim has tried to avoid fixating on Law as a villain. “Everyone wants somebody to blame,” she says. “And it’s easy to blame him.” But pretending that Law is the only problem, she says, ignores other issues. Even when Ashtyn went looking for help, he couldn’t find any. “There are so many things that are broken about our system,” says Kim. “The blame, the shame, the lack of mental health supports.”
From another parent: He shook his head and fought back tears. “He’s hurt so many people. Why? Because he was broke? Get a fucking job. I have two of them. I’m 56 years old, and I work 80 hours a week.”
Lastly: Suicidal people flock to online forums because the offline world is often ill-equipped to support them. When people are in crisis, they need compassion, not condemnation. “That person probably fought for a hell of a lot longer than you think,” Daniel says. “I fight every day.”
posted by Bella Donna at 10:58 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
From one parent: Kim has tried to avoid fixating on Law as a villain. “Everyone wants somebody to blame,” she says. “And it’s easy to blame him.” But pretending that Law is the only problem, she says, ignores other issues. Even when Ashtyn went looking for help, he couldn’t find any. “There are so many things that are broken about our system,” says Kim. “The blame, the shame, the lack of mental health supports.”
From another parent: He shook his head and fought back tears. “He’s hurt so many people. Why? Because he was broke? Get a fucking job. I have two of them. I’m 56 years old, and I work 80 hours a week.”
Lastly: Suicidal people flock to online forums because the offline world is often ill-equipped to support them. When people are in crisis, they need compassion, not condemnation. “That person probably fought for a hell of a lot longer than you think,” Daniel says. “I fight every day.”
posted by Bella Donna at 10:58 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
Broken people slip through the cracks really easily
posted by Jacen at 11:36 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 11:36 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Some grieving parents have opted for litigation instead of lobbying, suing Amazon for not only selling the substance to their kids but also recommending other potentially life-ending products in the “people also bought” section
what in the everliving fuck
posted by azpenguin at 12:59 PM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
what in the everliving fuck
posted by azpenguin at 12:59 PM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
The article says that Law sold the sodium nitrate and gave instructions on how to use it for suicide. If that's the extent of what he's done then I don't think it should be a crime. If he's telling people to kill themselves or entering into fake suicide pacts with them that's another thing but the article gave the impression that he just wanted to sell his sodium nitrate and wasn't particularly invested in whether his customers ended up using it or not.
But at the same time if someone I cared about killed themselves and I saw they had used a package Law sold them then there would definitely be a part of me that would want Law to face some kind of justice.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:29 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
But at the same time if someone I cared about killed themselves and I saw they had used a package Law sold them then there would definitely be a part of me that would want Law to face some kind of justice.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:29 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
In this community, and also in my own country, I think I'm in a minority because I am vehemently against assisted suicide. I can talk about this for days, but I'll point out that at least here in Denmark , the medical community is against it as well, in spite of a popular majority being for.
However, I haven't previously, in any forum, explained why. Two very different members of my extended family committed suicide. One was a Lesbian at a time where homosexuality was not widely accepted. But we accepted it!! Every single person in my family acknowledged everyones right to their own life and love, and all the family friends I ever met, going back generations, felt the same. It was so heartbreaking to know that we couldn't together overcome societal bigotry. Specially since it would only be a few years later that Denmark made gay marriages an option, because in truth, a majority of Danes agreed with us. She had gone through so much, and been such a hero, and then she felt hopeless literally moments before her love was acknowledged. At the time, I didn't even know homosexuality was unusual, such was my family's and my community's protection of her, and the accept of gay people at my school and among my parent's and grandparent's friends.
The other person was a bipolar parent of three. They never received the right treatment, in part because it wasn't widely available at the time, and in part because of the stigma on mental health issues. Those children have never, ever recovered. They have completely different reactions and are completely different people, but it is heartbreaking to see how their loss informs every aspect of their lives, even more than 30 years later. I can't go further into this on a public forum, but again, this was a much loved person, who did something desperate in a desperate moment, but could have lived for decades more with proper treatment, and would have loved to have grandchildren.
Anyway, Law angers me immeasurably. How can anyone be so cruel and so cynical? It seems his targets were mainly young people who felt desperate but who had lives ahead of them, lives where they could have met caring envoriments and felt free to be themselves.
That said, there is something about the article that rubs me the wrong way: the pictures of Law at work, the detailed description of his failures. I can understand how journalists would want to understand how a person becomes so morally corrupt, but it also seems uncomfortable.
posted by mumimor at 2:01 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
However, I haven't previously, in any forum, explained why. Two very different members of my extended family committed suicide. One was a Lesbian at a time where homosexuality was not widely accepted. But we accepted it!! Every single person in my family acknowledged everyones right to their own life and love, and all the family friends I ever met, going back generations, felt the same. It was so heartbreaking to know that we couldn't together overcome societal bigotry. Specially since it would only be a few years later that Denmark made gay marriages an option, because in truth, a majority of Danes agreed with us. She had gone through so much, and been such a hero, and then she felt hopeless literally moments before her love was acknowledged. At the time, I didn't even know homosexuality was unusual, such was my family's and my community's protection of her, and the accept of gay people at my school and among my parent's and grandparent's friends.
The other person was a bipolar parent of three. They never received the right treatment, in part because it wasn't widely available at the time, and in part because of the stigma on mental health issues. Those children have never, ever recovered. They have completely different reactions and are completely different people, but it is heartbreaking to see how their loss informs every aspect of their lives, even more than 30 years later. I can't go further into this on a public forum, but again, this was a much loved person, who did something desperate in a desperate moment, but could have lived for decades more with proper treatment, and would have loved to have grandchildren.
Anyway, Law angers me immeasurably. How can anyone be so cruel and so cynical? It seems his targets were mainly young people who felt desperate but who had lives ahead of them, lives where they could have met caring envoriments and felt free to be themselves.
That said, there is something about the article that rubs me the wrong way: the pictures of Law at work, the detailed description of his failures. I can understand how journalists would want to understand how a person becomes so morally corrupt, but it also seems uncomfortable.
posted by mumimor at 2:01 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
"The article says that Law sold the sodium nitrate and gave instructions on how to use it for suicide. If that's the extent of what he's done then I don't think it should be a crime. "
Part of the article explains how making a suicide method a bit harder reduces the likelihood people will use it.
When you offer an easy suicide method - with instructions! - you make it easier for people to kill themselves, and people kill themselves who otherwise might have lived and recovered their mental health. Providing instructions to me goes far beyond merely supplying the means. I have no problem with this being illegal.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:09 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
Part of the article explains how making a suicide method a bit harder reduces the likelihood people will use it.
When you offer an easy suicide method - with instructions! - you make it easier for people to kill themselves, and people kill themselves who otherwise might have lived and recovered their mental health. Providing instructions to me goes far beyond merely supplying the means. I have no problem with this being illegal.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:09 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
joe's spleen, I felt the same. I read, probably here, about bridge-jumpers in particular, who when denied the easy access to jump, tended to not try again.
I do go back and forth, in that it seems wrong to stop someone in pain from ending their pain the way they want to. And a lot of people can agree on that when it comes to a drawn-out death from old age or diseases like Alzheimers and ALS that take so much from you before you go. And those things are common enough that it seems right to me to have that option, when there's no such thing as "getting better."
Is it the same for mental pain, if your particular diagnosis doesn't respond to the help that's available to you? If there is no help? It's understandable. It's not desirable. It would be better to change our society and find more ways to help. But to someone hurting, that doesn't mean anything.
I had two friends commit suicide, both of whom never got the right help and were trapped in religious families in denial about what they needed. The help was theoretically there, but we were all so poor and resource-less at the time, that accessing it felt impossible, especially with uncooperative families. How can I be mad at them for not wanting to hurt anymore? But also, I would give a lot for them to be here and well. I just don't know if that was on the table for them.
What I did think about is that these websites exist because when you are feeling suicidal, openly talking about your desire to die can be such a relief, and it's so rare. Doctors will start rushing around if you tell them, family and friends will cry and freak out, sometimes the fucking cops get called, and so there's no one who will just let you speak what's inside you. Except other people feeling the same.
posted by emjaybee at 2:57 PM on November 3, 2023 [28 favorites]
I do go back and forth, in that it seems wrong to stop someone in pain from ending their pain the way they want to. And a lot of people can agree on that when it comes to a drawn-out death from old age or diseases like Alzheimers and ALS that take so much from you before you go. And those things are common enough that it seems right to me to have that option, when there's no such thing as "getting better."
Is it the same for mental pain, if your particular diagnosis doesn't respond to the help that's available to you? If there is no help? It's understandable. It's not desirable. It would be better to change our society and find more ways to help. But to someone hurting, that doesn't mean anything.
I had two friends commit suicide, both of whom never got the right help and were trapped in religious families in denial about what they needed. The help was theoretically there, but we were all so poor and resource-less at the time, that accessing it felt impossible, especially with uncooperative families. How can I be mad at them for not wanting to hurt anymore? But also, I would give a lot for them to be here and well. I just don't know if that was on the table for them.
What I did think about is that these websites exist because when you are feeling suicidal, openly talking about your desire to die can be such a relief, and it's so rare. Doctors will start rushing around if you tell them, family and friends will cry and freak out, sometimes the fucking cops get called, and so there's no one who will just let you speak what's inside you. Except other people feeling the same.
posted by emjaybee at 2:57 PM on November 3, 2023 [28 favorites]
Thank you, emjaybee. I wish your compassion didn't seem so out of place in this thread.
posted by tigrrrlily at 3:24 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by tigrrrlily at 3:24 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
An interesting feature of the McCarthy v. Amazon litigation is that Amazon was actively censoring reviews that warned against suicide, but was absolved of liability for doing so through the expansionist reading of Section 230 of the CDA that some very well-paid lawyers have been very well-paid for establishing through the courts, despite its unmooredness from any plausible understanding of Congressional intent.
The best I can say about Section 230 advocate Eric Goldman's response is that even he seemed to recognize that he tied himself into quite a pretzel trying to justify the district court ruling that absolved Amazon of liability.
posted by Not A Thing at 4:11 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
The best I can say about Section 230 advocate Eric Goldman's response is that even he seemed to recognize that he tied himself into quite a pretzel trying to justify the district court ruling that absolved Amazon of liability.
posted by Not A Thing at 4:11 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
By and large, people kill themselves not because they want to die but because they’re trying to escape an unbearable hurt.
That's what the late Mr. Nerd used to say. He didn't necessarily want to die, he was just tired of being in chronic pain (spinal stenosis) every nanosecond he was awake.
It's been 9 years. I miss him.
posted by luckynerd at 4:23 PM on November 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
That's what the late Mr. Nerd used to say. He didn't necessarily want to die, he was just tired of being in chronic pain (spinal stenosis) every nanosecond he was awake.
It's been 9 years. I miss him.
posted by luckynerd at 4:23 PM on November 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
emjaybee, I completely agree.
I don't know how to express my desire for a world with zero suicide, and my desire for a world where we have complete bodily autonomy and ownership.
I do know that one way I've come to to think about it is by reducing access to leathal chemicals or situations we can postpone suicide. Hopefully, indefinitely, but you can't remove someone's choice without deminishing their autonomy.
Please read this comment in the most good faith manner. I don't support suicide, but I don't want to deminish someone who has taken their life for doing that.
posted by Braeburn at 4:59 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't know how to express my desire for a world with zero suicide, and my desire for a world where we have complete bodily autonomy and ownership.
I do know that one way I've come to to think about it is by reducing access to leathal chemicals or situations we can postpone suicide. Hopefully, indefinitely, but you can't remove someone's choice without deminishing their autonomy.
Please read this comment in the most good faith manner. I don't support suicide, but I don't want to deminish someone who has taken their life for doing that.
posted by Braeburn at 4:59 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Humans are often terrible at allowing other humans to have bodily autonomy.
YMMV, but I'd rather have had The Late Mr. Nerd turn to someone like Law so I could be by his side as he left this earth than have to have the local authorities find him for me.
posted by luckynerd at 6:07 PM on November 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
YMMV, but I'd rather have had The Late Mr. Nerd turn to someone like Law so I could be by his side as he left this earth than have to have the local authorities find him for me.
posted by luckynerd at 6:07 PM on November 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
To BigHeartedGuy's thoughtful list, I would like to add:
US National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 988
US Veterans Crisis Line: 988, Press 1
Talk Suicide Canada: 1-833-456-4566
Samaritans Helpline (UK): 116 123
Lifeline Australia: 13 11 14
posted by virago at 6:11 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
US National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 988
US Veterans Crisis Line: 988, Press 1
Talk Suicide Canada: 1-833-456-4566
Samaritans Helpline (UK): 116 123
Lifeline Australia: 13 11 14
posted by virago at 6:11 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
>Doctors will start rushing around if you tell them, family and friends will cry and freak out, sometimes the fucking cops get called
And when the dust settles from all that chaos, how often does the status quo change? A quick google tells me that 30% or so suicide survivors makes a second attempt. I'm not going to deny that crisis lines and even inpatient are useful, sometimes even lifelines. But they are bandaids, often. Not panaceas, not a guarantee that someone will get anything resembling meaningful help.
posted by Jacen at 6:53 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
And when the dust settles from all that chaos, how often does the status quo change? A quick google tells me that 30% or so suicide survivors makes a second attempt. I'm not going to deny that crisis lines and even inpatient are useful, sometimes even lifelines. But they are bandaids, often. Not panaceas, not a guarantee that someone will get anything resembling meaningful help.
posted by Jacen at 6:53 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
This aint about me but I'm tellin yez:
I never wanted to die. I want to live. I keep trying but it aint happening. Society surrounds me and wants me to fit in a space I can't cornform to, or die. The message keeps coming through. There is no place for such as me.
I have been asked repeatedly by health workers and authorities if I have "suicidal thoughts". I always answer "no" regardless of the truth, because I remember what happened to people I knew back in the day. Institutionalized and abused until one, at least, "made it" finally.
Insides hurt all the time. Some days better, some worse. There is no real reason to think that dying will ease or stop the pain. As long as your brain and sensorium are alive, you will experience it. In death, there will be no more experience of anything, including time. Therefore the pain you experience at death might be your eternity.
I don't know this to be true, but this line of thinking keeps me from regarding suicide as an "escape". For that to be true it seems to me that you'd have to somehow escape your suicide. Maybe if you believe in Life After Death it's a different situation, but most religions I know about that include that belief also believe that suicide is a sin for which one is punished. Oh well!
Pain is the awareness of life. Life an opportunity to suffer. God hates us all and wants us dead, apparently. What a waste of a creation!
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 9:41 PM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
I never wanted to die. I want to live. I keep trying but it aint happening. Society surrounds me and wants me to fit in a space I can't cornform to, or die. The message keeps coming through. There is no place for such as me.
I have been asked repeatedly by health workers and authorities if I have "suicidal thoughts". I always answer "no" regardless of the truth, because I remember what happened to people I knew back in the day. Institutionalized and abused until one, at least, "made it" finally.
Insides hurt all the time. Some days better, some worse. There is no real reason to think that dying will ease or stop the pain. As long as your brain and sensorium are alive, you will experience it. In death, there will be no more experience of anything, including time. Therefore the pain you experience at death might be your eternity.
I don't know this to be true, but this line of thinking keeps me from regarding suicide as an "escape". For that to be true it seems to me that you'd have to somehow escape your suicide. Maybe if you believe in Life After Death it's a different situation, but most religions I know about that include that belief also believe that suicide is a sin for which one is punished. Oh well!
Pain is the awareness of life. Life an opportunity to suffer. God hates us all and wants us dead, apparently. What a waste of a creation!
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 9:41 PM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
If we think that it should be possible for people with severe and untreatable distress to kill themselves, I don't think the right person to facilitate that is someone like Law. You want a professional who gives a shit and has made some show of assessing the situation, operating within strict guidelines and under supervision. Not mail order drugs and an instruction sheet and all care no responsibility. You deserve better than a dry cleaner standard of care.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:00 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:00 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
("Assisted dying" for people near end of life is legal in my country, and I have a friend who is a doctor and who offers it. Because doctors are the most stupidly hardcase profession, there is no professional supervision for him, and we talk sometimes. It causes him substantial stress and worry as he tries to do right, evaluate carefully and correctly, and deliver the service for those who need it. He cares, treats in person, and is the opposite of this Law fellow.)
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:02 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:02 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
This story immediately brought to mind a video from a producer who usually posts about music notation and composing. The video is disturbing enough it has a click-through trigger warning on YouTube, so please give it a miss if you're not feeling up to it.
“Encouraging the Young to Die - The Most Toxic Site I've Ever Seen”—Tantacrul, 20 January 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 7:19 AM on November 4, 2023
“Encouraging the Young to Die - The Most Toxic Site I've Ever Seen”—Tantacrul, 20 January 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 7:19 AM on November 4, 2023
When you offer an easy suicide method - with instructions! - you make it easier for people to kill themselves, and people kill themselves who otherwise might have lived and recovered their mental health. Providing instructions to me goes far beyond merely supplying the means. I have no problem with this being illegal.
Original poster may be mistaken on that point, according to the article
He mailed them out in envelopes and boxes without any instructions on how to use them for suicide; his customers could find that information on the forum.
He also had a consultation line, though and the journalist who called it said that he was told how to take it.
posted by Selena777 at 7:36 AM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Original poster may be mistaken on that point, according to the article
He mailed them out in envelopes and boxes without any instructions on how to use them for suicide; his customers could find that information on the forum.
He also had a consultation line, though and the journalist who called it said that he was told how to take it.
posted by Selena777 at 7:36 AM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I know of multiple men who have taken their own lives. I wish I didn't. There is a thread that ties all of them together that you can't ignore. In each case, they were facing life with a chronic, debilitating condition for which there was no cure and only limited relief, at best. As the article puts it, "...people kill themselves not because they want to die but because they’re trying to escape an unbearable hurt." Our health care system doesn't do a very good job, if it bothers to do anything at all, for those in such situations. Until it does, those who are suffering are going to continue looking for alternatives, including this one. Stopping one seller of sodium nitrate won't change that.
posted by tommasz at 7:36 AM on November 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 7:36 AM on November 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
Until it does, those who are suffering are going to continue looking for alternatives, including this one. Stopping one seller of sodium nitrate won't change that.
There is some evidence that many suicide attempts are impulsive and preventing them from being carried out in the moment does, in fact, serve to save the person's life. So, stopping this guy probably is actually saving some actual people's lives.
It raises questions about bodily autonomy, though.
posted by praemunire at 10:42 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
There is some evidence that many suicide attempts are impulsive and preventing them from being carried out in the moment does, in fact, serve to save the person's life. So, stopping this guy probably is actually saving some actual people's lives.
It raises questions about bodily autonomy, though.
posted by praemunire at 10:42 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is my belief that the stigmatization of suicide was implemented shortly after the invention of organized religion. Once you have the population convinced that "The divine powers want you to do what we tell you to do, and you will be rewarded for your obedience after you die," well, the loophole is obvious.
There is some evidence that many suicide attempts are impulsive and preventing them from being carried out in the moment does, in fact, serve to save the person's life.
And others will keep plodding along, day after day, never knowing an instant of joy but maintaining a façade of normality, waiting with decreasing patience for just the right moment to make their exit with absolute certainty of success.
Ask me how I know.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:41 AM on November 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
There is some evidence that many suicide attempts are impulsive and preventing them from being carried out in the moment does, in fact, serve to save the person's life.
And others will keep plodding along, day after day, never knowing an instant of joy but maintaining a façade of normality, waiting with decreasing patience for just the right moment to make their exit with absolute certainty of success.
Ask me how I know.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:41 AM on November 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
It seems like there should be a distinction between situational suicidal ideation vs chronic suicidal ideation. So many people don't get that there's a distinction. There's a difference between situational depression and chronic depression, correct?
Urgent mental health care clinics should be (more of a) thing. The late Mr. Nerd and I went to a county-run urgent mental health clinic less than a year before he died. The concept was great, though it was obvious it was under-funded. You were treated kindly and offered a comfy place to chill and snacks if you wanted. You saw a social worker and a psych doc as part of the visit. If you weren't a danger to yourself or anyone else, you could chill for a bit before leaving. If you were, they helped find you a bed at a local hospital. Sometimes people go through heavy shit and need a place to go and talk to someone and get what help they need. Why do we treat that very real human condition as a lower priority than physical ailments? Sooo frustrating sometimes.
posted by luckynerd at 4:33 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Urgent mental health care clinics should be (more of a) thing. The late Mr. Nerd and I went to a county-run urgent mental health clinic less than a year before he died. The concept was great, though it was obvious it was under-funded. You were treated kindly and offered a comfy place to chill and snacks if you wanted. You saw a social worker and a psych doc as part of the visit. If you weren't a danger to yourself or anyone else, you could chill for a bit before leaving. If you were, they helped find you a bed at a local hospital. Sometimes people go through heavy shit and need a place to go and talk to someone and get what help they need. Why do we treat that very real human condition as a lower priority than physical ailments? Sooo frustrating sometimes.
posted by luckynerd at 4:33 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
There's a difference between situational depression and chronic depression, correct?
Honestly, I'm not sure? This is an argument a friend and I make: our lives suck for reasons we can't just easily leave (in her case, caregiving for two dying/elderly relatives who frankly don't have their faculties and are mean to her...for 8 years....) and if her relatives were dead and I miraculously didn't have to stay in a job I suck at to survive, would we both be 100% okay now? I suspect so for the most part because at worst I would consider myself dysthymic-ish before all of this hell (then again, it's hard to remember now after so many years) and she'd probably be even better once she can abandon her family, but medical professionals seem to disagree. If you've been in a bad situation for years and you're depressed over it, same difference, here's some meds.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:06 PM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Honestly, I'm not sure? This is an argument a friend and I make: our lives suck for reasons we can't just easily leave (in her case, caregiving for two dying/elderly relatives who frankly don't have their faculties and are mean to her...for 8 years....) and if her relatives were dead and I miraculously didn't have to stay in a job I suck at to survive, would we both be 100% okay now? I suspect so for the most part because at worst I would consider myself dysthymic-ish before all of this hell (then again, it's hard to remember now after so many years) and she'd probably be even better once she can abandon her family, but medical professionals seem to disagree. If you've been in a bad situation for years and you're depressed over it, same difference, here's some meds.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:06 PM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm also unsure how impulsive it could be labeled to find a relatively obscure suicide method, figure out where to order some, wait for it to arrive and then make choices. Sounds easier in the USA to get a gun. I know dozens of places that sell those. Including one (Hey Walmart) that typically has the 'sporting goods' pretty close to the toy section.
And yes, in an ideal world nobody would have to go to extreme measures to end suffering. More ideally nobody would be put in conditions where not dealing with everything sounds like a good plan. Limiting doctor assisted dying to the most visibly worst off, the most inarguably 'deserving' can overlook a lot of much more quiet, invisible struggles. Ones that often don't seem to get as much help or support. I suspect many people in the world like to categorize suicide as 'one really bad decision on a bad day ' Which.... Fair enough. But I think that really is a disservice to a huge amount of suffering that is often from institutional hate. Bigotry, extreme capitalism, gutting support networks and trying to tie help to churches... If the world is broken, and some people can't figure out how to survive in that horrible system, and there's no obvious help in sight.........
posted by Jacen at 5:43 PM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
And yes, in an ideal world nobody would have to go to extreme measures to end suffering. More ideally nobody would be put in conditions where not dealing with everything sounds like a good plan. Limiting doctor assisted dying to the most visibly worst off, the most inarguably 'deserving' can overlook a lot of much more quiet, invisible struggles. Ones that often don't seem to get as much help or support. I suspect many people in the world like to categorize suicide as 'one really bad decision on a bad day ' Which.... Fair enough. But I think that really is a disservice to a huge amount of suffering that is often from institutional hate. Bigotry, extreme capitalism, gutting support networks and trying to tie help to churches... If the world is broken, and some people can't figure out how to survive in that horrible system, and there's no obvious help in sight.........
posted by Jacen at 5:43 PM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
I wonder how many people think of their continued lives as a sacrifice they have to make in order to help others.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:46 PM on November 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:46 PM on November 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
We Need to Talk About Climate Change and Suicide
Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study
Higher temperatures increase suicide rates in the United States and Mexico
Climate change could drive tens of thousands of additional suicides in North America
Hi, it's me, your friendly neighborhood doomer. And guess what.
As our planet continues to become less habitable, we're having more and more trouble living here. And it's not just the knowledge of climate change; it's actually actual climate change itself, the heat and humidity and the pollution from wildfire smoke and the pollution from all of human existence that's directly affecting our state of mind.
Be gentle with yourself. You're in a difficult place and time to be alive.
posted by MrVisible at 6:02 PM on November 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
>When controlling for numerous factors, including regional poverty, gun ownership rates, and abrupt shocks like celebrity suicides, data suggest that unmitigated global warming could contribute to as many as 40,000 excess suicides by 2050 in the U.S. and Mexico alone. Crucially, this relationship between heat and suicide appears to be “stable across time, baseline climate, air conditioning penetration rates, accessibility of mental health services, and other factors,” according to Jamie T. Mullins and Corey White, who reported similar results in 2019, calling into question whether adaptation will be possible.Rising humidity could be linked to increase in suicides, report finds
>Despite centuries of theorizing, much about the mechanism connecting suicide with heat and humidity (which may be an even more direct risk factor) remains unknown. Researchers are exploring several possible biological explanations, including disrupted sleep and neurotransmitters, which play a role in both thermoregulation and emotions, says psychiatrist Elizabeth Haase. But downstream social and economic consequences are likely also at play. In India and Australia, for example, rising temperatures have already contributed to drought and resulting crop failure, which appears to have made many farmers and others in intimate relationships with the landscape increasingly vulnerable to suicide.
>Other environmental factors are also receiving new scrutiny. A growing body of evidence has shown that poor air quality—driven by emissions from fossil fuels, ozone production, and fires—is associated with an increased risk of suicide on the order of 1 to 2 percent per day of exposure, says Caroline Dumont, an assistant professor of clinical psychiatry at Yale School of Medicine and the co-author of a recent paper on climate change and the risk of completed suicide. At this point, the existing studies on the topic have primarily been attempts to establish a correlation between suicide and air pollution, so other factors may be at play. But Dumont thinks there could be a causal relationship between the two: Upon entering the body, microscopic soot can not only trigger inflammation in the lungs (asthma) and heart (cardiovascular disease), but also in the brain—with the potential for similarly sickening consequences.
Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study
Higher temperatures increase suicide rates in the United States and Mexico
Climate change could drive tens of thousands of additional suicides in North America
Hi, it's me, your friendly neighborhood doomer. And guess what.
As our planet continues to become less habitable, we're having more and more trouble living here. And it's not just the knowledge of climate change; it's actually actual climate change itself, the heat and humidity and the pollution from wildfire smoke and the pollution from all of human existence that's directly affecting our state of mind.
Be gentle with yourself. You're in a difficult place and time to be alive.
posted by MrVisible at 6:02 PM on November 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm also unsure how impulsive it could be labeled to find a relatively obscure suicide method, figure out where to order some, wait for it to arrive and then make choices.
Consider the interview with the guy who ordered some "just to have it." One particularly bad day might do it. With the younger people in particular, this seems a real possibility.
posted by praemunire at 3:54 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Consider the interview with the guy who ordered some "just to have it." One particularly bad day might do it. With the younger people in particular, this seems a real possibility.
posted by praemunire at 3:54 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
After a friend killed himself, I was incredibly angry. For months. I went to the 12-step group he sometimes attended to let people know of his death. After the meeting, one of the participants came over and told me that they hoped people would not be angry after they, inevitably, one day, also decided to end their life. They said something along the lines of, "Your friend was in a lot of pain. He's not suffering anymore. I hope people understand that many of us have to fight every single day to stay alive. At some point, it's just too hard to keep fighting." Of course, I had not looked at it from that perspective. That perspective had not even occurred to me, because my friend had not shared his depth of despair with anyone. I will never know exactly why he chose to end his life. But maybe that is none of my business.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:24 AM on November 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 1:24 AM on November 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
A theater castmate in my current show had a friend of his die recently. He's been talking to me about it in between show stuff. He finally said the other day it was suicide and he seems quietly baffled about it.
I feel like there's kind of two sorts of people who take some kind of action: the "cry for help" people such as my cousin who would take pills, start calling people to say goodbye and then wonder why suddenly the EMT's arrived at the door, and the people like another cousin's friend that I also knew where people had NO idea, he always seemed cheerful, and then one day he did it out of nowhere. Those people who don't let on that they feel that bad are, I guess, more serious about it, make sure it works and that nobody can save them.
My mom asked cousin #1 once if she actually meant to kill herself (she's had heavy depression since age six when she had a medical crisis) and cousin said yes, but I suspected it was more like when Rebecca on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend took a bunch of pills while on a plane and told the flight attendant, "I just wanted the pain to stop." If you really wanted to make sure it worked, you probably wouldn't do it surrounded by an audience of people who could save you.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:08 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel like there's kind of two sorts of people who take some kind of action: the "cry for help" people such as my cousin who would take pills, start calling people to say goodbye and then wonder why suddenly the EMT's arrived at the door, and the people like another cousin's friend that I also knew where people had NO idea, he always seemed cheerful, and then one day he did it out of nowhere. Those people who don't let on that they feel that bad are, I guess, more serious about it, make sure it works and that nobody can save them.
My mom asked cousin #1 once if she actually meant to kill herself (she's had heavy depression since age six when she had a medical crisis) and cousin said yes, but I suspected it was more like when Rebecca on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend took a bunch of pills while on a plane and told the flight attendant, "I just wanted the pain to stop." If you really wanted to make sure it worked, you probably wouldn't do it surrounded by an audience of people who could save you.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:08 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Got it, jenfullmoon.
"I certainly wouldn't want to come across as just wanting attention or something, people might think I'm not serious"
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:12 AM on November 6, 2023
"I certainly wouldn't want to come across as just wanting attention or something, people might think I'm not serious"
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:12 AM on November 6, 2023
I apologize if that offended. I can't claim to understand it myself, it's just what I've observed about people who are open about it vs. who isn't.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:27 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:27 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
jenfullmoon, I find no problems with your observations. It's such a complex topic.
posted by luckynerd at 10:24 AM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by luckynerd at 10:24 AM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
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