NTSB would like cars to tell people to slow down, maybe even limit speed
November 16, 2023 9:17 AM Subscribe
Hey lead foot, get off the gas! If your car knows where you are because of GPS, and knows the speed limit because of on-board maps, and the speed limit is a legal mandate, why doesn't your car keep you from breaking the law by preventing you from driving too fast? The NTSB thinks it's well past time for this to be the case.
Because my car has a system that tells me the speed limit, and it is often wrong per the posted signs.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:28 AM on November 16, 2023 [32 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:28 AM on November 16, 2023 [32 favorites]
Maybe we can rip the band-aid off and go after giant trucks and anything getting fewer than 20 mpg too. Just poke fingers in the eyes of the big-pickup-maga-tyranny bunch all over the place.
posted by GamblingBlues at 9:31 AM on November 16, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by GamblingBlues at 9:31 AM on November 16, 2023 [20 favorites]
Previously: Living as an Accidental Killer
Previously: The Driver Who Hit Me Got Two Years in Prison. But I Got a Life Sentence
Previously: it's the cars, stupid!
Previously: Why drivers in China intentionally kill the pedestrians they hit.
Previously: "If you want to kill someone, do it with a car."
posted by AlSweigart at 9:31 AM on November 16, 2023 [14 favorites]
Previously: The Driver Who Hit Me Got Two Years in Prison. But I Got a Life Sentence
Previously: it's the cars, stupid!
Previously: Why drivers in China intentionally kill the pedestrians they hit.
Previously: "If you want to kill someone, do it with a car."
posted by AlSweigart at 9:31 AM on November 16, 2023 [14 favorites]
There's a mass delusion around this; people will go to great lengths to tell you that it's safer generally if everybody drives way, way faster, and that certainly, fantastic drivers like themselves aren't causing any additional hazards by going way over the speed limit. Any attempt to get people to slow the hell down is going to be hated like poison by the vast majority of drivers. Nobody can be bothered to go vote to stop fascists from taking over the world, but try to really make people observe the speed limit and by god you'll have a large, angry public movement on your hands.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 9:32 AM on November 16, 2023 [46 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 9:32 AM on November 16, 2023 [46 favorites]
Considering the number of times waze/google maps gets confused about whether I'm on the highway or the road parallel to it (service road?) I'd be afraid of the system limiting me to a speed which is unsafe on a highway.
But other than that, please and thank you, but we haven't been able to limit cars to a reasonable speed according to the maximum legal highway speed limit so I don't think this will fly.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:33 AM on November 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
But other than that, please and thank you, but we haven't been able to limit cars to a reasonable speed according to the maximum legal highway speed limit so I don't think this will fly.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:33 AM on November 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
I love this, but I don't see it happening any time soon. What if, in the meantime, they did an opt-in tax credit to drive the speed limit?
You don't need everyone to be monitored in order for speeds to go down. You just need enough people driving the speed limit to shift the Overton window on what's reasonable.
A couple years ago, I stopped speeding entirely, not even 1MPH, except for highways. That just doesn't mean I'm going slower. It also means everyone behind me is. And everyone passing me feels like they're going faster.
posted by gurple at 9:34 AM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
You don't need everyone to be monitored in order for speeds to go down. You just need enough people driving the speed limit to shift the Overton window on what's reasonable.
A couple years ago, I stopped speeding entirely, not even 1MPH, except for highways. That just doesn't mean I'm going slower. It also means everyone behind me is. And everyone passing me feels like they're going faster.
posted by gurple at 9:34 AM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
The passive systems are one thing, but the first time someone dies trying to speed away from a California wildfire while their car is artificially slowed because the speed limit in town is 30, the lawsuit is going to be massive.
posted by corb at 9:40 AM on November 16, 2023 [42 favorites]
posted by corb at 9:40 AM on November 16, 2023 [42 favorites]
Then again, you split areas on a grid of 5mx5m cells, assign each cell a maximum speed limit that is the max of all roads overlapping/neighboring the cell, and use this as the max speed for the vehicle and you've got some kind of solution that should be somewhat robust to those kinds of mixups.
You don't need everyone to be monitored in order for speeds to go down. You just need enough people driving the speed limit to shift the Overton window on what's reasonable.
That would work for highways & main roads, but really is not enough for low traffic residential/school areas, the lone speeder in that context can do a lot of damage.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:43 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
You don't need everyone to be monitored in order for speeds to go down. You just need enough people driving the speed limit to shift the Overton window on what's reasonable.
That would work for highways & main roads, but really is not enough for low traffic residential/school areas, the lone speeder in that context can do a lot of damage.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:43 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
This was already implemented in Europe last year.
posted by vacapinta at 9:44 AM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by vacapinta at 9:44 AM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
"It should be noted that the variant of ISA that is going to be mandatory in the European Union as of 2022 can be switched off and is overridable."
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:48 AM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:48 AM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
The car share I use (in the USA) is rolling out a passive version of this. It verbally scolds me for speeding (and once when it didn't think I stopped well enough at a stop sign). It's annoying but I do slow down to make it shut up.
I appreciate that is also scolds the other users of the car share so they're less likely to wreck the cars we share.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 9:49 AM on November 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
I appreciate that is also scolds the other users of the car share so they're less likely to wreck the cars we share.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 9:49 AM on November 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
"It should be noted that the variant of ISA that is going to be mandatory in the European Union as of 2022 can be switched off and is overridable."
A passive system like the one in the EU is the only one I see discussed in the linked article. The only references I see to active systems (e.g. ones that put on the brakes) are here in the mefi comments.
posted by vacapinta at 9:52 AM on November 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
A passive system like the one in the EU is the only one I see discussed in the linked article. The only references I see to active systems (e.g. ones that put on the brakes) are here in the mefi comments.
posted by vacapinta at 9:52 AM on November 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
I've seen enough "Not Just Bikes" and "City Nerd" videos in the last year to know that the answer to this problem is to make roads narrower with more obstacles to force drivers to slow down.
posted by morspin at 9:57 AM on November 16, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by morspin at 9:57 AM on November 16, 2023 [23 favorites]
destroy the stroad!
posted by MonsieurPEB at 10:00 AM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by MonsieurPEB at 10:00 AM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
no way this could be misused by cops and companies, no sireee
posted by lalochezia at 10:02 AM on November 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 10:02 AM on November 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
Great idea as long as it's easily over-ridden, e.g. my Maps program thinks the speed limit on the interstate to my house is 40 (maybe, as suggested above, it's the speed limit of a parallel road) and I would be creamed if I drove 40 on that road (the posted speed limit is 70). Additionally, emergencies happen when you need to go fast. But I would be broadly in favour of everybody slowing down for sure.
posted by joannemerriam at 10:03 AM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by joannemerriam at 10:03 AM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
I did some driving on some Caribbean islands and they have traffic calming structures ("speed tables") all over the major roads. And these aren't your typical speed bumps, they're very large and tall structures that will literally throw your car into the air and land with sparks if you're 15-20 MPH over the limit. And they work.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:06 AM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:06 AM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Maybe if we make driving suck enough (idk, like it doesn’t already) we can finally make a real push toward transit and other alternatives.
posted by toodleydoodley at 10:07 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by toodleydoodley at 10:07 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've often thought about enforcing speed limits like this because here, in Alberta, governors on work vehicles are entirely normal and that strikes me as an "elephant in the room" for vehicle safety. Without even going so far as having gps monitoring to match your vehicle speed to the road speed, why can our cars even go faster than the max highway speed limit? It's not legal for us to drive that fast on any road, so why is it even an option? People who drive work vehicles with governors just complain, drive in the slow lane, and have fewer accidents.
I also just old-man-yell-at-clouds about speed limits all the time, because they exist in opposite town. We all treat speed limits like the minimum speed, and argue about how much faster than that is "safe" when, presumably, the roadway was engineered with that speed limit for a reason. We don't treat other safety limits like that, loading things beyond their maximum capacity and just hoping for the best, but speed limits seem to short-circuit our capacity for rational thought.
posted by selenized at 10:09 AM on November 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
I also just old-man-yell-at-clouds about speed limits all the time, because they exist in opposite town. We all treat speed limits like the minimum speed, and argue about how much faster than that is "safe" when, presumably, the roadway was engineered with that speed limit for a reason. We don't treat other safety limits like that, loading things beyond their maximum capacity and just hoping for the best, but speed limits seem to short-circuit our capacity for rational thought.
posted by selenized at 10:09 AM on November 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
split areas on a grid of 5mx5m cells, assign each cell a maximum speed limitMy GPS is occasionally off by far more than 2.5 meters.
posted by Hatashran at 10:09 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
The problem with using technology to reduce speeding in cars is the mass surveillance issues.
The mass surveillance part is already happening, it's been happening for years, but the benefits of it have been fully privatized. The public has gained very little from it, specifically so that the public doesn't see it and object to it.
posted by mhoye at 10:13 AM on November 16, 2023 [15 favorites]
The mass surveillance part is already happening, it's been happening for years, but the benefits of it have been fully privatized. The public has gained very little from it, specifically so that the public doesn't see it and object to it.
posted by mhoye at 10:13 AM on November 16, 2023 [15 favorites]
Require ISA systems that, at a minimum, warn a driver a vehicle is speeding.
Well probably get another stupid warning light on the dash but it would be hilarious if it worked like airplane TCAS with a series of increasingly strident warnings:
*Warning chimes*
Caution, Speed. Caution, Speed
*Warning chimes*
Caution, Speed. Caution, Speed
Excessive Speed. Slow down.
*Louder, more shrill chimes*
Excessive Speed! Slow down!
*Air raid siren like warning sound*
Slow Down!
SLOW DOWN!
SLOW DOWN!
SLOW DOWN!
SLOW DOWN!
Until speed drops below posted limit.
Manufacturers could offer different voice packs. For $5 a month you could have "English, motherfucker, do you speak it? I told you to slow down!" Or "I pity the fool who don't slow down!"
posted by Mitheral at 10:15 AM on November 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
Well probably get another stupid warning light on the dash but it would be hilarious if it worked like airplane TCAS with a series of increasingly strident warnings:
*Warning chimes*
Caution, Speed. Caution, Speed
*Warning chimes*
Caution, Speed. Caution, Speed
Excessive Speed. Slow down.
*Louder, more shrill chimes*
Excessive Speed! Slow down!
*Air raid siren like warning sound*
Slow Down!
SLOW DOWN!
SLOW DOWN!
SLOW DOWN!
SLOW DOWN!
Until speed drops below posted limit.
Manufacturers could offer different voice packs. For $5 a month you could have "English, motherfucker, do you speak it? I told you to slow down!" Or "I pity the fool who don't slow down!"
posted by Mitheral at 10:15 AM on November 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
(The answer is, of course, not "if cops don't police traffic, the traffic should be the cop". It's "we need to redesign our streets and change how we live in a way that inconveniences the powerful.")
posted by mhoye at 10:15 AM on November 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 10:15 AM on November 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
My car has an adaptive cruise control feature that will try to maintain a certain speed based on distance with the next car in front of me, and it uses the onboard cameras to read speed limit signs and will also automatically slow itself down if the speed limit drops from, say, 45mph to 30mph. In general, it's welcome, but I also find that in neighborhoods with lower speed limits, there's an actual greater need for vigilance. (school zones, heavily residential areas, etc.) so I wind up turning off the adaptive cruise for that. But using built-in cameras for speed limit detection is an existing workaround to GPS inaccuracies or can be a "belt and suspenders' level of redundancy.
posted by bl1nk at 10:15 AM on November 16, 2023
posted by bl1nk at 10:15 AM on November 16, 2023
Just let me take trains everywhere. That's what I loved about living in NYC.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:17 AM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:17 AM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
Microfines. Drive 1MPH over the speed limit for 1 minute? Pay 1 cent. 5MPH / 1 minute? 2 cents. 5MPH / 1 hour? $1.
20MPH / 1 minute? A fixed amount of impact to your financial life whose dollar amount is determined by your income.
Potential for problems? Tons. Weigh that against the lives saved.
posted by gurple at 10:17 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
20MPH / 1 minute? A fixed amount of impact to your financial life whose dollar amount is determined by your income.
Potential for problems? Tons. Weigh that against the lives saved.
posted by gurple at 10:17 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nuh-uh, unless everyone gets this at the same time I know what will happen, based on my experience with adaptive cruise control. A continuous stream of asshats tailgating and/or cutting me off because I'm going slower than 15 miles above the speed limit.
We could just .. enforce the laws sometimes. Maybe a separate department like we do for parking, since police seem unmotivated around here. I mean, if photographic evidence were sufficient I could write tickets all day long for texting-while-driving violations.
posted by credulous at 10:17 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
We could just .. enforce the laws sometimes. Maybe a separate department like we do for parking, since police seem unmotivated around here. I mean, if photographic evidence were sufficient I could write tickets all day long for texting-while-driving violations.
posted by credulous at 10:17 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
The passive systems are one thing, but the first time someone dies trying to speed away from a California wildfire while their car is artificially slowed because the speed limit in town is 30, the lawsuit is going to be massive.
And it would still be at least an order of magnitude cheaper than the sociatital cost of deaths and injury due to excessive speed. It's easily justifiable to payout some $100 million lawsuit every time some incredibly rare example of speeding being the solution vs the billions excessive speed costs.
posted by Mitheral at 10:24 AM on November 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
And it would still be at least an order of magnitude cheaper than the sociatital cost of deaths and injury due to excessive speed. It's easily justifiable to payout some $100 million lawsuit every time some incredibly rare example of speeding being the solution vs the billions excessive speed costs.
posted by Mitheral at 10:24 AM on November 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
Nuh-uh, unless everyone gets this at the same time I know what will happen, based on my experience with adaptive cruise control.
We know what will happen because every single device with a speed limiter in it has a wire under the hood with a label on it saying "definitely, definitely don't disconnect this wire, oh my gosh you sure shouldn't do that" and an empty, pre-cut spot on the dashboard where the switch from the aftermarket kits you can install with ten minutes work goes, and coincidentally somebody's selling those kits across the street from the dealership.
posted by mhoye at 10:27 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
We know what will happen because every single device with a speed limiter in it has a wire under the hood with a label on it saying "definitely, definitely don't disconnect this wire, oh my gosh you sure shouldn't do that" and an empty, pre-cut spot on the dashboard where the switch from the aftermarket kits you can install with ten minutes work goes, and coincidentally somebody's selling those kits across the street from the dealership.
posted by mhoye at 10:27 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
We could just .. enforce the laws sometimes.
Just some anecdata, but here in Toronto something like 85% of police don't actually live in Toronto, and they stopped enforcing any laws that might add ten minutes to their commutes years ago.
posted by mhoye at 10:29 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Just some anecdata, but here in Toronto something like 85% of police don't actually live in Toronto, and they stopped enforcing any laws that might add ten minutes to their commutes years ago.
posted by mhoye at 10:29 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think about this a lot in DC because we have a city-wide default speed limit of 20/25mph with only a handful of exceptions and most of the really bad collisions, close calls, and noise are caused by drivers choosing to go multiple times the posted limit.
One way to roll out limits like this would be making them restricted to areas like DC or NYC where most of the edge cases don’t apply because you don’t have a 65mph highway 10 feet from a residential street. I have, however, wondered whether the better option would simply be to have two thresholds: don’t let the vehicle exceed the highest posted limit within 10 miles, but when they exceed what the navigation system believes is the top speed, turn off the entertainment system, disables the cruise control, and plays a warning message on loop. Nobody’s harmed if the system gets the wrong speed, but it takes the fun out of it for the people who thinking they should LARP GTA on the way home if they lose the soundtrack and have to pay attention to the road.
I suspect the best way to get this, however, would be by mandating the hooks an insurance company would need to set policy conditions for their clients. Most of the problems come from the fact that unsafe driving has costs which are largely paid by other people and putting drivers in the situation of needing to pay a premium to run their vehicle faster than any posted limit in their state would save a lot of lives while giving good drivers a discount.
posted by adamsc at 10:32 AM on November 16, 2023 [14 favorites]
One way to roll out limits like this would be making them restricted to areas like DC or NYC where most of the edge cases don’t apply because you don’t have a 65mph highway 10 feet from a residential street. I have, however, wondered whether the better option would simply be to have two thresholds: don’t let the vehicle exceed the highest posted limit within 10 miles, but when they exceed what the navigation system believes is the top speed, turn off the entertainment system, disables the cruise control, and plays a warning message on loop. Nobody’s harmed if the system gets the wrong speed, but it takes the fun out of it for the people who thinking they should LARP GTA on the way home if they lose the soundtrack and have to pay attention to the road.
I suspect the best way to get this, however, would be by mandating the hooks an insurance company would need to set policy conditions for their clients. Most of the problems come from the fact that unsafe driving has costs which are largely paid by other people and putting drivers in the situation of needing to pay a premium to run their vehicle faster than any posted limit in their state would save a lot of lives while giving good drivers a discount.
the first time someone dies trying to speed away from a California wildfire while their car is artificially slowed because the speed limit in town is 30, the lawsuit is going to be massive.Or nonexistent because 30mph is considerably faster than you can drive in those situations – in the San Diego wildfires I’m used to, the inherent inefficiency of cars meant people were stuck in multi-hour traffic jams and the people trying to speed caused more injuries than the fires.
posted by adamsc at 10:32 AM on November 16, 2023 [14 favorites]
Manufacturers could offer different voice packs. For $5 a month you could have "English, motherfucker, do you speak it? I told you to slow down!" Or "I pity the fool who don't slow down!"
TomTom sort of offers this service for their stand-alone navigation devices, but it relies on a user community to create them. Mine moos when I speed.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:38 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
TomTom sort of offers this service for their stand-alone navigation devices, but it relies on a user community to create them. Mine moos when I speed.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:38 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just got back from a road trip from Seattle to LA.
Speed limits just seem to be a fantasy these days...
Did see California HP doing radaring, but none in Washington and Oregon. None on any of the surface streets. Everyone is speeding like crazy. Good thing we are paying all those police for the great job they are doing...
But, there are times when needing to exceed the speed limit can get one out of a dangerous situation. This would tend to make me really uncomfortable.
posted by Windopaene at 10:39 AM on November 16, 2023
Speed limits just seem to be a fantasy these days...
Did see California HP doing radaring, but none in Washington and Oregon. None on any of the surface streets. Everyone is speeding like crazy. Good thing we are paying all those police for the great job they are doing...
But, there are times when needing to exceed the speed limit can get one out of a dangerous situation. This would tend to make me really uncomfortable.
posted by Windopaene at 10:39 AM on November 16, 2023
If you go too much over the speed limit, your car should just call the cops automatically, because obviously you're experiencing an emergency and you need a police escort to get where you're going.
posted by pracowity at 10:39 AM on November 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 10:39 AM on November 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
I would not limit the cars ability to speed. As noted above, that is a technical solution that is asking implementation issues. Plus it is just ignores older vehicles.
Instead, make speed cameras ubiquitous and randomize their placement. Car speeding? $X/mph once you exceed a 5mph buffer. I suspect that after seeing the first bill for a few hundred because the system spotted you doing 10 over on a half dozen different roads, you will slow down.
To prevent the "a fine is just the cost of doing business for rich people" you could tack on a "X strikes and you get your license reviewed" penalty. For example, after the 5th one in a month, costs go up and your license gets dinged.
The nice thing is that you can now add enforcement in areas that are traditionally difficult to police due to safety issues. Prime example is a recent construction zone along the interstate. There was no place to stage a police car and safely pull folks over in the entire 15 mile long segment. So everybody just turned it into a free for all speed zone. A week with a speed camera could have generated enough revenue to pay for the project.
Fun side thought: As electric vehicles become more common, we are going to have an acceleration / speed issue. Those things are stupid fast. Performance that was limited to a few rich folks will now become common.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 10:42 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Instead, make speed cameras ubiquitous and randomize their placement. Car speeding? $X/mph once you exceed a 5mph buffer. I suspect that after seeing the first bill for a few hundred because the system spotted you doing 10 over on a half dozen different roads, you will slow down.
To prevent the "a fine is just the cost of doing business for rich people" you could tack on a "X strikes and you get your license reviewed" penalty. For example, after the 5th one in a month, costs go up and your license gets dinged.
The nice thing is that you can now add enforcement in areas that are traditionally difficult to police due to safety issues. Prime example is a recent construction zone along the interstate. There was no place to stage a police car and safely pull folks over in the entire 15 mile long segment. So everybody just turned it into a free for all speed zone. A week with a speed camera could have generated enough revenue to pay for the project.
Fun side thought: As electric vehicles become more common, we are going to have an acceleration / speed issue. Those things are stupid fast. Performance that was limited to a few rich folks will now become common.
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 10:42 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you go too much over the speed limit, your car should just call the cops automatically
I feel like we should try not to make jokes that are only funny if you're really comfortable and really white. I have to admit it's really dismaying to see how many people in this thread are very comfortable saying "the solution to this social, structural and technological problem is to add more cops."
posted by mhoye at 10:46 AM on November 16, 2023 [26 favorites]
I feel like we should try not to make jokes that are only funny if you're really comfortable and really white. I have to admit it's really dismaying to see how many people in this thread are very comfortable saying "the solution to this social, structural and technological problem is to add more cops."
posted by mhoye at 10:46 AM on November 16, 2023 [26 favorites]
and Nevada’s failure to deter the driver’s speeding recidivism due to systemic deficiencies, despite numerous speeding citations.Citations and fines did not stop this driver from killing nine people.
posted by zamboni at 10:48 AM on November 16, 2023
Electric cars are becoming uninsurable due to the soaring accident rates and large repair bills.
The future of motoring is going to be rich people paying for an 'Elon mode' which forces everyone else to slow down and pull over out of the way.
posted by Lanark at 10:51 AM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
The future of motoring is going to be rich people paying for an 'Elon mode' which forces everyone else to slow down and pull over out of the way.
posted by Lanark at 10:51 AM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
To prevent the "a fine is just the cost of doing business for rich people" you could tack on a "X strikes and you get your license reviewed" penalty. For example, after the 5th one in a month, costs go up and your license gets dinged.We should start here: speeding is dangerous, so take away the privilege from people who don’t respect the risks they’re imposing on their neighbors every time they drive.
What I’d really like to see is use of those speed limiters companies use on fleet vehicles (and mandate that new cars have builtin software) so if you get more than a certain number of speeding tickets in a six month period you can keep driving but only at up to 30mph. The fear of not being able to go vroom vroom scares middle class people more than money.
posted by adamsc at 10:52 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've been saying for a very long time that we have the tech to eliminate drunk driving, which accounts for about a third of driving fatalities, simply by installing interlock devices on all cars. This could easily be driven by insurance rates, and so could speed controls.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:53 AM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:53 AM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Just got back from a road trip from Seattle to LA.
Speed limits just seem to be a fantasy these days...
I recall driving the 1-5 (Canadian border to LA) with a friend back in the early 1980s when 55mph was the legal speed limit. At some point, it became clear that NOBODY was adhering to it unless the traffic flow itself dictated it. We eventually decided that keeping it under 80mph seemed "safe" as that's what the majority of other cars were doing.
tldr: same as it ever was.
posted by philip-random at 11:02 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Speed limits just seem to be a fantasy these days...
I recall driving the 1-5 (Canadian border to LA) with a friend back in the early 1980s when 55mph was the legal speed limit. At some point, it became clear that NOBODY was adhering to it unless the traffic flow itself dictated it. We eventually decided that keeping it under 80mph seemed "safe" as that's what the majority of other cars were doing.
tldr: same as it ever was.
posted by philip-random at 11:02 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
In related news...
‘Cameras Don’t Have Guns’ – Boston’s Black Community Weighs In On Camera-Based Traffic Enforcement
‘Cameras Don’t Have Guns’ – Boston’s Black Community Weighs In On Camera-Based Traffic Enforcement
"Members of the Black community do want some kind of traffic enforcement, because the worst safety conditions are in our communities," said Rennert. "We want our kids to feel like they can walk and take the bus without being worried about an accident. So don’t think that our sentiments about the police mean that we want the Wild Wild West. We do not. We want safe streets the way everyone else does."posted by Superilla at 11:11 AM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
A modest proposal, link the car to a breathalyzer and use the following equation:
Max speed = Posted speed limit / (1 + BAC * 10)
Still undetermined is what happens if you get negative drunk...
posted by credulous at 11:14 AM on November 16, 2023
Max speed = Posted speed limit / (1 + BAC * 10)
Still undetermined is what happens if you get negative drunk...
posted by credulous at 11:14 AM on November 16, 2023
they can fuck right off with this. i don't want any automated system deciding what to do in conditions it's not aware of unless it has total control and it's been proven safe. automated systems have no idea why i might need to go faster than the posted limit (which it may also not be accurate about).
posted by kokaku at 11:17 AM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 11:17 AM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'd be ecstatic if cars within my city limits had governors. Go ahead and allow an override button for emergencies, and if you're really fleeing a wildfire (lol) then we can waive the fine.
But you weren't speeding to the hospital, were you. You were just speeding.
posted by daveliepmann at 11:28 AM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
But you weren't speeding to the hospital, were you. You were just speeding.
posted by daveliepmann at 11:28 AM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
Hey, you know that really, really, really, REALLY irritating sound your car makes when you don't have a seatbelt engaged? And how it never stops making that sound, despite brief pauses, until you actually buckle up?
How about just a really oppressive and irritating noise that gets WAY LOUDER the faster you speed and the presence of which is required by insurance, registration, and (where applicable) routine safety/emissions testing?
posted by Slackermagee at 11:33 AM on November 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
How about just a really oppressive and irritating noise that gets WAY LOUDER the faster you speed and the presence of which is required by insurance, registration, and (where applicable) routine safety/emissions testing?
posted by Slackermagee at 11:33 AM on November 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
The NYS thruway (I-87) near where I am has a 65 mph. limit, which, pre-COVID, was a de facto 75 mph. Now the actual average driving speed is closer to 85-90. I don't know whether the pandemic increased risk-taking behavior or COVID itself (cf. Toxoplasma gondii) or what. I do know it's very different now.
posted by exlotuseater at 11:34 AM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by exlotuseater at 11:34 AM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm always astounded at what a negative reaction "what if we just made it impossible for people to commit a dangerous crime in a way that does not restrict any other action" gets.
posted by Superilla at 11:35 AM on November 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by Superilla at 11:35 AM on November 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
My GPS is occasionally off by far more than 2.5 meters.
Is it your GPS reading or your driving/map software repositioning you where it think you should be?
TBH I kinda pulled this number of my recollection of what the GPS 'normal' accuracy is, this can be tweaked for reality. My point mostly was that GPS by itself sucks at figuring out exactly which road you're on in dense settings where multiple roads are close together so a solution that rely on GPS only would need some adjustment.
Instead, make speed cameras ubiquitous and randomize their placement.
So much this. So so much.
Gets all the cars, old or new, teaches drivers to pay attention and comply.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:36 AM on November 16, 2023
Is it your GPS reading or your driving/map software repositioning you where it think you should be?
TBH I kinda pulled this number of my recollection of what the GPS 'normal' accuracy is, this can be tweaked for reality. My point mostly was that GPS by itself sucks at figuring out exactly which road you're on in dense settings where multiple roads are close together so a solution that rely on GPS only would need some adjustment.
Instead, make speed cameras ubiquitous and randomize their placement.
So much this. So so much.
Gets all the cars, old or new, teaches drivers to pay attention and comply.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:36 AM on November 16, 2023
The NYS thruway (I-87) near where I am has a 65 mph. limit, which, pre-COVID, was a de facto 75 mph. Now the actual average driving speed is closer to 85-90. I don't know whether the pandemic increased risk-taking behavior or COVID itself (cf. Toxoplasma gondii) or what. I do know it's very different now.
It feels like there's more of a "The Rules Don't Matter" attitude for sure. I think it is in part from seeing what the courts, cops, TFG's lackeys, etc get away with in broad daylight in addition to whatever else.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:39 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
It feels like there's more of a "The Rules Don't Matter" attitude for sure. I think it is in part from seeing what the courts, cops, TFG's lackeys, etc get away with in broad daylight in addition to whatever else.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:39 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Set up a system whereby speed-based fines, determined by this kind of monitoring, can be deposited directly into the coffers of a city, county or state. Make it revenue-positive from day 1. Establish a federal fund to pay for the inevitable lawsuits.
But don't allow the fines to be split across those entities -- only the city, county or state gets the money. And whoever implements it first wins.
posted by gurple at 11:45 AM on November 16, 2023
But don't allow the fines to be split across those entities -- only the city, county or state gets the money. And whoever implements it first wins.
posted by gurple at 11:45 AM on November 16, 2023
Instead, make speed cameras ubiquitous and randomize their placement.
I spend a few months a year in Scotland, the major roads there have speed cameras and average speed cameras. For the most part, people observe the speed limit much more closely than over here.
posted by jvbthegolfer at 11:49 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I spend a few months a year in Scotland, the major roads there have speed cameras and average speed cameras. For the most part, people observe the speed limit much more closely than over here.
posted by jvbthegolfer at 11:49 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mitheral, I just had a *lot* of fun acting out your comment for my wife, complete with sound effects mimicking the best Airbus / Boeing / Citation / etc. sound effects from simulators and aviation accident videos.
(btw you probably know this, but there's already a "SPEED. SPEED." warning on transport aircraft, and no you don't want to ever hear that one)
posted by tigrrrlily at 11:53 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
speed warning horn is heard continuously until impact
(btw you probably know this, but there's already a "SPEED. SPEED." warning on transport aircraft, and no you don't want to ever hear that one)
posted by tigrrrlily at 11:53 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
re: GPS knowing where you are...my 2018 Accord has a camera that has machine vision software that sees and interprets highway speed limit signs and displays the max speed in my instrument cluster. it does this without a GPS device or internet connection being present.
posted by mmascolino at 11:53 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mmascolino at 11:53 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm always astounded at what a negative reaction "what if we just made it impossible for people to commit a dangerous crime in a way that does not restrict any other action" gets.
but it does impose even more surveillance/policing into our lives. That's where I immediately angle away from seeing any of this as simple.
And yes, I'm something of a speeder, I guess. That is, when I see a sign that says maximum 50 (kph where I am), I instead set 60 kph as my max*. It's a tactic I've been using for over forty years now and ... not a single speeding ticket.
I will go even more over the limit if I'm passing someone (thinking highway-freeway stuff here). One of the least safe things I see people do (and I see it a lot) is pass someone verrrrry slowly (ie: eyeing the speedometer the whole way), which may keep you within the letter of the law but it also tends to park you in that other vehicle's blind spot for longer, and that's ALWAYS a dangerous place to be.
posted by philip-random at 11:57 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
but it does impose even more surveillance/policing into our lives. That's where I immediately angle away from seeing any of this as simple.
And yes, I'm something of a speeder, I guess. That is, when I see a sign that says maximum 50 (kph where I am), I instead set 60 kph as my max*. It's a tactic I've been using for over forty years now and ... not a single speeding ticket.
I will go even more over the limit if I'm passing someone (thinking highway-freeway stuff here). One of the least safe things I see people do (and I see it a lot) is pass someone verrrrry slowly (ie: eyeing the speedometer the whole way), which may keep you within the letter of the law but it also tends to park you in that other vehicle's blind spot for longer, and that's ALWAYS a dangerous place to be.
posted by philip-random at 11:57 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
The only references I see to active systems (e.g. ones that put on the brakes) are here in the mefi comments.
From the article,
posted by corb at 11:57 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
From the article,
Active systems include mechanisms that make it more difficult, but not impossible, to increase the speed of a vehicle above the posted speed limit and those that electronically limit the speed of the vehicle to fully prevent drivers from exceeding the speed limit.They aren't recommending them at this time but that doesn't mean they're taking them totally off the table for the future.
posted by corb at 11:57 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know whether the pandemic increased risk-taking behavior or COVID itself (cf. Toxoplasma gondii) or what. I do know it's very different now.
I noticed this when work from home mandates ended. I live downtown and it was very apparent that the suburban commuters were back and they wanted me dead. I have never had so many close calls with people driving highway speeds through what are really residential neighborhoods and speeding up for crosswalks instead of stopping. It feels like drivers have lost all patience for any delay of any kind.
posted by selenized at 11:59 AM on November 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
I noticed this when work from home mandates ended. I live downtown and it was very apparent that the suburban commuters were back and they wanted me dead. I have never had so many close calls with people driving highway speeds through what are really residential neighborhoods and speeding up for crosswalks instead of stopping. It feels like drivers have lost all patience for any delay of any kind.
posted by selenized at 11:59 AM on November 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
I think that, whatever the privacy issues, we're headed towards a future where we have time and location based mileage taxes, and it makes perfect sense to integrate that with speed limit enforcement, but...
We've been trying to do traffic calming efforts in our neighborhood, and our town's public works department is trying to get out in front of this as well. I've been aware of the fact that "furniture" (sign and light posts, etc) in the "recovery zone" (shoulders and sidewalks) are breakaway, designed to not injure motorists should they swerve into them.
We were recently measuring the geometry of a new roundabout in an other neighborhood to see if it could be applied to our neighborhood, and among the neighbors who stopped to chat and sing the praises was a guy who said "yeah, I got this car cheap because some teenager drove over the roundabout and ripped the oil pan out".
And I am now 1000% behind automated speed enforcement through passive infrastructure. Let's build shit to *seriously* fuck up a car when drivers deviate.
Let's put up bollards to narrow lanes.
The design goal should be that when drivers exhibit unsafe traffic behavior, their cars are destroyed.
So, yes, move forward NTSB, but also work with your local traffic engineers. There's a lot that can be done at the local level in concrete and asphalt as roads are maintained.
posted by straw at 12:02 PM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
We've been trying to do traffic calming efforts in our neighborhood, and our town's public works department is trying to get out in front of this as well. I've been aware of the fact that "furniture" (sign and light posts, etc) in the "recovery zone" (shoulders and sidewalks) are breakaway, designed to not injure motorists should they swerve into them.
We were recently measuring the geometry of a new roundabout in an other neighborhood to see if it could be applied to our neighborhood, and among the neighbors who stopped to chat and sing the praises was a guy who said "yeah, I got this car cheap because some teenager drove over the roundabout and ripped the oil pan out".
And I am now 1000% behind automated speed enforcement through passive infrastructure. Let's build shit to *seriously* fuck up a car when drivers deviate.
Let's put up bollards to narrow lanes.
The design goal should be that when drivers exhibit unsafe traffic behavior, their cars are destroyed.
So, yes, move forward NTSB, but also work with your local traffic engineers. There's a lot that can be done at the local level in concrete and asphalt as roads are maintained.
posted by straw at 12:02 PM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
My father was hit by a driver last week, and I had (another) two near-misses just on Tuesday, so my opinion is now that all traffic and parking violations should result in immediately locking the car irrevocably from the outside, taking it to the nearest recycling yard, and mulching it along with whoever/whatever was trapped inside.
posted by backseatpilot at 12:03 PM on November 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by backseatpilot at 12:03 PM on November 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
Once insurance companies offer steep discounts for allowing your car to fink on you, the seas will change dramatically on this, because people who don't allow it are going to get even more rooked by liability insurance than they already are. And the more people take the nanny rider, the more expensive it's going to be to not take it, because it's going to be more and more dangerous to speed with all the people around who are not speeding. And if the car says you were going 20 over the limit when you hit something and your insurance says "that's on you buddy, you were breaking the law, you're not covered" then you are going to be wearing a barrel and suspenders for the rest of your life.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:03 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:03 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hey, you know that really, really, really, REALLY irritating sound your car makes when you don't have a seatbelt engaged? And how it never stops making that sound, despite brief pauses, until you actually buckle up? How about just a really oppressive and irritating noise that gets WAY LOUDER the faster you speedI will never forget my experience in the UAE in 2010, where something like this had been implemented in pretty much every car I hitched a ride in. Particularly once you get outside the major cities, I felt like everybody drove batshit fast, even more so than I'd been used to in the U.S. Every driver's solution to the warning tone was to simply blast their radios even louder. (I made several backseat field recordings and you can hear them beep-beep-beeping away in the background.)
posted by mykescipark at 12:04 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Anyone who wants to try starting their thought process on this topic from the opposite direction, I recommend the De fiets is niets episode of 99% Invisible podcast, which chronicles the Dutch effort to counteract the sudden surge in children being killed by people driving cars.
This part especially:
posted by daveliepmann at 12:14 PM on November 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
This part especially:
For a long time in the Netherlands, the conversation around pedestrian and bike safety had focused on the behavior of pedestrians and cyclists... [The focus was] always on—especially for children—behavior. Put them in a yellow coat, all the drivers will see them. You know, this sharp, yellow, plastic coat.It made me think: what if the safety standard for a street was that toddlers weren't subject to the death penalty?
But for anyone who spent even an afternoon with a young child, the limits of the behavioral approach are pretty obvious. When it comes to impulse control, an excited kid ranks just below a dog that has seen a squirrel. And if you’re the adult responsible for their safety and there are two-ton hunks of metal hurtling by, it makes you stressed. Maartje says she used to drill her kids.
posted by daveliepmann at 12:14 PM on November 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'm really worried about EVs. The acceleration on even a modest EV beats the pants off even most performance combustion engine cars. Factor in the additional weight due to the batteries, and it's not the people going 85 on a 65 limited access highway I'm worried about. It's the people being able to go 0-60 mph in 4 seconds on my residential neighborhood street one block from an elementary school that terrifies me.
posted by misskaz at 12:15 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by misskaz at 12:15 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is a fantastic idea!
Good luck.
posted by freakazoid at 12:15 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Good luck.
posted by freakazoid at 12:15 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Every driver's solution to the warning tone was to simply blast their radios even louder.
My automotive TCAS system would ideally be piped through and override the entertainment system.
posted by Mitheral at 12:19 PM on November 16, 2023
My automotive TCAS system would ideally be piped through and override the entertainment system.
posted by Mitheral at 12:19 PM on November 16, 2023
Entertainment system????
Sterile cockpit procedures, please, from engine startup until the expressway.
posted by tigrrrlily at 12:34 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sterile cockpit procedures, please, from engine startup until the expressway.
posted by tigrrrlily at 12:34 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I live in the city and take public transportation. I rarely drive, though I used to drive all the time up until my 30s. Once a year or so when I visit my hometown I'll rent a car and take a long road trip. Because I have taken an extended break from driving and come at it with fresh eyes once a year, I notice the same thing every time.
Holy shit, people drive fast. Driving on the highway is just car after car flitting past me, even when I'm going a little over.
Virtually no one drives the speed limit, which is almost always my target speed, at least at first. That's especially true the first few miles I drive after a year of not driving. Most other people on the road drive every day, the same routes usually, and it's easy to build up a complacency about speeding. I do my best to ignore it, and go slow(ish). Speeding really doesn't get you to your destination any faster--you may shave off five or ten minutes, but at a much greater risk. Just leave five minutes earlier and drive the speed limit.
posted by zardoz at 12:41 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Holy shit, people drive fast. Driving on the highway is just car after car flitting past me, even when I'm going a little over.
Virtually no one drives the speed limit, which is almost always my target speed, at least at first. That's especially true the first few miles I drive after a year of not driving. Most other people on the road drive every day, the same routes usually, and it's easy to build up a complacency about speeding. I do my best to ignore it, and go slow(ish). Speeding really doesn't get you to your destination any faster--you may shave off five or ten minutes, but at a much greater risk. Just leave five minutes earlier and drive the speed limit.
posted by zardoz at 12:41 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Given how reasonable the nation's gun laws are, I have full confidence that, pursuant to a rational and thoughtful discussion, this policy will be implemented posthaste.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:46 PM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:46 PM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
It made me think: what if the safety standard for a street was that toddlers weren't subject to the death penalty?
Alternatively: what if you just lost your license for good if you killed somebody.
posted by mhoye at 12:55 PM on November 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
Alternatively: what if you just lost your license for good if you killed somebody.
posted by mhoye at 12:55 PM on November 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
Microfines.
We could just .. enforce the laws sometimes
Instead, make speed cameras ubiquitous and randomize their placement.
Police in the US are not honest or trustworthy, and neither are many local governments that have become accustomed to funding themselves in nontrivial part by asserting that nonresidents were speeding.
If they could get smart governors to work well enough, that would be fine with me.
but it does impose even more surveillance/policing into our lives
I don't quite understand this. You ask your car to go faster, and it refuses. Your car is surveilling you, yeah, like cars have for a long long time.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:07 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
We could just .. enforce the laws sometimes
Instead, make speed cameras ubiquitous and randomize their placement.
Police in the US are not honest or trustworthy, and neither are many local governments that have become accustomed to funding themselves in nontrivial part by asserting that nonresidents were speeding.
If they could get smart governors to work well enough, that would be fine with me.
but it does impose even more surveillance/policing into our lives
I don't quite understand this. You ask your car to go faster, and it refuses. Your car is surveilling you, yeah, like cars have for a long long time.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:07 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
that's why I added /policing. It's one thing to have GPS. It's another to enable an outside concern to impose on my business via that GPS.
posted by philip-random at 1:14 PM on November 16, 2023
posted by philip-random at 1:14 PM on November 16, 2023
You guys could just live here on the island, where everyone drives 39.7mph everywhere. Clear day on the highway? 39.7. Empty rural road with posted 50mph limit? 39.7. City center? 39.7. School zone with kids present? 39.7.
It's like they read an article in Heavily Medicated Monthly which said that statistically 39.7 is the Greatest Speed and they set their cruise control to it.
posted by maxwelton at 1:35 PM on November 16, 2023
It's like they read an article in Heavily Medicated Monthly which said that statistically 39.7 is the Greatest Speed and they set their cruise control to it.
posted by maxwelton at 1:35 PM on November 16, 2023
that's why I added /policing.
Considering that the speed you drive is already policed using the threat of lethal violence, I don't see just not letting you do it as more than an exceedingly minor escalation.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:38 PM on November 16, 2023
Considering that the speed you drive is already policed using the threat of lethal violence, I don't see just not letting you do it as more than an exceedingly minor escalation.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:38 PM on November 16, 2023
All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace
posted by hortense at 1:56 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by hortense at 1:56 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
and fender mounted nuclear deterrents
posted by MonsieurPEB at 2:29 PM on November 16, 2023
posted by MonsieurPEB at 2:29 PM on November 16, 2023
and a little panopticism
posted by exlotuseater at 2:32 PM on November 16, 2023
posted by exlotuseater at 2:32 PM on November 16, 2023
I live in a city that is installing lots of automatic speed cameras which ding you for going even 1km over the limit, and the fines get steep fast. I usually try to drive the limit, but I got dinged a couple times in September. I didn’t notice that a short section of a road I used to live on and still drive on a regular basis over the last 20 years was reduced from 60 kph to 50 kph as a “community safety zone”. The reason I got dinged twice was because the speeding tickets didn’t show up in the mail until 7 weeks after the infractions. Ironically I noticed the change in speed limit the morning of the day the tickets arrived in the mail.
Anyways, automatic speed cameras definitely work. I don’t really like that the fines start at 1km above the limit as it is easy to wander that much even if you are trying to keep to the limit. But now I know if I am on a stretch of road and everyone is suddenly going 5 kph below the limit a camera must be up ahead.
I think they would be much more effective if the ticket showed up right away instead of over a month after the infraction.
posted by fimbulvetr at 2:40 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Anyways, automatic speed cameras definitely work. I don’t really like that the fines start at 1km above the limit as it is easy to wander that much even if you are trying to keep to the limit. But now I know if I am on a stretch of road and everyone is suddenly going 5 kph below the limit a camera must be up ahead.
I think they would be much more effective if the ticket showed up right away instead of over a month after the infraction.
posted by fimbulvetr at 2:40 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
It seems once again the majority of people haven't read or understood the article?
From comments like "mass surveillance issues" or "what if people die in a wildfire" or "misused by cops and companies".
I'll try make it simple - they're proposing that speeding be treated the same as existing automatic lane keeping.
For Automatic Lane Keeping.
Passive System: Green highlight when you're in the center of your lane, yellow highlight when you're drifting to the edge, red highlight when you're impinging into the next lane.
Active System: Applies a resistance and pressure to return to the center of your lane when you're about to impinge on your neighbouring lane. Also vibrates the steering wheel. The pressure is gentle and doesn't prevent you from changing lane in opposition to it. All it does is make sure you are intentional about changing your lane, because using your indicator disables this system temporarily, so it actually trains drivers to use their indicator when changing lanes.
The way I would describe the pressure would be like driving your car on a banked curve - the bank itself helps "guide" your vehicle around the curve naturally. We have test tracks like that at work where the bank exactly matches the curve, so you could take your hands off the steering wheel and the car would (almost) drive right itself around the track without any intervention... these tracks were designed in the really old days when we tested new cars with max throttle at redline for 24 hours straight with just refueling stops. Obviously the bank itself doesn't stop you from controlling the car.
So for the anti-speeding system, there would just be a green / red highlight to show if you're speeding.
And if you want to exceed the speed limit, it would use the same physical characteristics as the banked curve example for lane keeping - it would simulate trying to speed "uphill" where you need to apply some additional throttle to exceed the limit. It won't prevent you from doing it, but you'd feel the resistance and realise that you're not meant to be doing that.
Sure, some people will still speed, just like some people will still change lanes without indicating. But it will stop sleepy people from drifting out of their lane, and the technology is getting so cheap that the NHTSA benchmark has likely been exceeded - total cost of the systems vs benefit of lives saved is what they use (eg $7 mil per life versus 13 million cars per year x $100 per vehicle)
There's nothing here that requires surveillance or sharing information (the car knows exactly what speed it is at) and at present, it could use a combination of GPS, forward cameras (to read signs) - and my preference - this may not be present in all localities, but there's a hidden FM/AM radio band that is used to transmit road traffic authority notification data for road closures / roadworks with limited speed that can be read by the vehicle's naviation system. For example, while Google or Waze can tell you the road is congested, it often can't tell you why. Only the road traffic authority broadcast channel can tell you immediately that, yes they have closed the road entirely to traffic so find another route.
posted by xdvesper at 2:43 PM on November 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
From comments like "mass surveillance issues" or "what if people die in a wildfire" or "misused by cops and companies".
I'll try make it simple - they're proposing that speeding be treated the same as existing automatic lane keeping.
For Automatic Lane Keeping.
Passive System: Green highlight when you're in the center of your lane, yellow highlight when you're drifting to the edge, red highlight when you're impinging into the next lane.
Active System: Applies a resistance and pressure to return to the center of your lane when you're about to impinge on your neighbouring lane. Also vibrates the steering wheel. The pressure is gentle and doesn't prevent you from changing lane in opposition to it. All it does is make sure you are intentional about changing your lane, because using your indicator disables this system temporarily, so it actually trains drivers to use their indicator when changing lanes.
The way I would describe the pressure would be like driving your car on a banked curve - the bank itself helps "guide" your vehicle around the curve naturally. We have test tracks like that at work where the bank exactly matches the curve, so you could take your hands off the steering wheel and the car would (almost) drive right itself around the track without any intervention... these tracks were designed in the really old days when we tested new cars with max throttle at redline for 24 hours straight with just refueling stops. Obviously the bank itself doesn't stop you from controlling the car.
So for the anti-speeding system, there would just be a green / red highlight to show if you're speeding.
And if you want to exceed the speed limit, it would use the same physical characteristics as the banked curve example for lane keeping - it would simulate trying to speed "uphill" where you need to apply some additional throttle to exceed the limit. It won't prevent you from doing it, but you'd feel the resistance and realise that you're not meant to be doing that.
Sure, some people will still speed, just like some people will still change lanes without indicating. But it will stop sleepy people from drifting out of their lane, and the technology is getting so cheap that the NHTSA benchmark has likely been exceeded - total cost of the systems vs benefit of lives saved is what they use (eg $7 mil per life versus 13 million cars per year x $100 per vehicle)
There's nothing here that requires surveillance or sharing information (the car knows exactly what speed it is at) and at present, it could use a combination of GPS, forward cameras (to read signs) - and my preference - this may not be present in all localities, but there's a hidden FM/AM radio band that is used to transmit road traffic authority notification data for road closures / roadworks with limited speed that can be read by the vehicle's naviation system. For example, while Google or Waze can tell you the road is congested, it often can't tell you why. Only the road traffic authority broadcast channel can tell you immediately that, yes they have closed the road entirely to traffic so find another route.
posted by xdvesper at 2:43 PM on November 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
My 2023 VW has a camera to recognize speed limit signs, displays the speed limit on the dash and highlights the speedometer in red when you are above the posted limit, so a passive system already exists and is implemented. It misses signs sometimes, but is almost always accurate. I like the system and definitely helps me drive within the limits.
posted by fimbulvetr at 2:49 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 2:49 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
If automatic lane holding is the comparison, then I don't want it. After driving a rental car in country Australia and constantly fighting it to avoid potholes, I would never want a vehicle where this wasn't permanently disableable.
If we're serious about cars taking more control, we need to upgrade signage. Every speed sign should have a QR code that includes the speed, the location, a unique ID and a checksum. Cars should cross-reference this with one or more secure databases and GPS so that they're never "confused" about where they are and what the speed limit is. As this is rolled out we can build automation-friendly corridors where self-driving cars can move around much more safely.
posted by krisjohn at 3:21 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
If we're serious about cars taking more control, we need to upgrade signage. Every speed sign should have a QR code that includes the speed, the location, a unique ID and a checksum. Cars should cross-reference this with one or more secure databases and GPS so that they're never "confused" about where they are and what the speed limit is. As this is rolled out we can build automation-friendly corridors where self-driving cars can move around much more safely.
posted by krisjohn at 3:21 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’m as guilty as anyone at making stupid-individual level comments, but the fact is, any mod you make to cars, fuel prices, laws, or penalties, will disproportionately impact poor people unless you build real alternatives first.
Who do I mostly see speeding in neighborhoods? Poor people delivering food and driving ride shares as their second and third job. Who can’t afford to just “slow down and leave earlier”? Poor people on their way to their second and third job. Who will be fucked driving a manufacturer-governed car that they can’t afford/know how to override? Guess.
As always, the solution to traffic is policy, not punishing individuals.
posted by toodleydoodley at 3:35 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Who do I mostly see speeding in neighborhoods? Poor people delivering food and driving ride shares as their second and third job. Who can’t afford to just “slow down and leave earlier”? Poor people on their way to their second and third job. Who will be fucked driving a manufacturer-governed car that they can’t afford/know how to override? Guess.
As always, the solution to traffic is policy, not punishing individuals.
posted by toodleydoodley at 3:35 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
toodleydoodley: I see the same problem but opposite conclusion – right now, those people’s bosses are allow to skimp on staffing and shift risk to the employees because they know they can and there’ll be no record of them telling someone to break the law. Reliable enforcement flips that entirely because those orders are now impossible to follow and breaking the law would require them to tell people to go to some kind of black market auto mechanic which is much riskier.
The only change I’d make is adding some kind of triple fine billed directly to the company for moving or parking violations. If they can’t shift it to the employee, they’re a lot more likely to change how they do business.
posted by adamsc at 3:45 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
The only change I’d make is adding some kind of triple fine billed directly to the company for moving or parking violations. If they can’t shift it to the employee, they’re a lot more likely to change how they do business.
posted by adamsc at 3:45 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
If automatic lane holding is the comparison, then I don't want it. After driving a rental car in country Australia and constantly fighting it to avoid potholes, I would never want a vehicle where this wasn't permanently disableable.
I think this shows the system is working exactly as intended? If you're going to impinge on a neighbouring lane to avoid a pothole, shouldn't you, you know, use your indicator to warn people around you that you're going to do that? That's literally what the system is encouraging: be conscious when you're doing something out of the ordinary, and let others know your intentions.
I've always said that maybe it was never about making a robot that drove like a human: these systems train humans to drive with the precision and consistency of robots. Always indicate before changing lanes. Stay within the speed limits. Maintain a safe distance from the car in front of you.
If your argument is that "I know there's no one around me so I don't want to bother using the indicator" then that's no different to saying I want to speed through a red light because I know there was no one coming in the other direction. It works until you're wrong.
posted by xdvesper at 3:54 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think this shows the system is working exactly as intended? If you're going to impinge on a neighbouring lane to avoid a pothole, shouldn't you, you know, use your indicator to warn people around you that you're going to do that? That's literally what the system is encouraging: be conscious when you're doing something out of the ordinary, and let others know your intentions.
I've always said that maybe it was never about making a robot that drove like a human: these systems train humans to drive with the precision and consistency of robots. Always indicate before changing lanes. Stay within the speed limits. Maintain a safe distance from the car in front of you.
If your argument is that "I know there's no one around me so I don't want to bother using the indicator" then that's no different to saying I want to speed through a red light because I know there was no one coming in the other direction. It works until you're wrong.
posted by xdvesper at 3:54 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
https://xkcd.com/2832/
posted by Jacen at 4:14 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 4:14 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
When toll roads switched from cash to transponders, I thought that would be used for speed enforcement.
The distance between tollbooths is known, from which minimum legal time can be calculated. Any vehicle taking less time must therefore be speeding. Seems so obvious, I don't understand why it hasn't been implemented.
Not that I'm complaining, mind you.
posted by cheshyre at 4:33 PM on November 16, 2023
The distance between tollbooths is known, from which minimum legal time can be calculated. Any vehicle taking less time must therefore be speeding. Seems so obvious, I don't understand why it hasn't been implemented.
Not that I'm complaining, mind you.
posted by cheshyre at 4:33 PM on November 16, 2023
OK admittedly I haven't read every comment in this thread. What blows my mind is that the Apple iPhone Map app has a GPS turn-by-turn direction feature which I use often when I have to drive out to my relatives' homes in the 'burbs.
Anyway it will sometimes say "Red light camera ahead!" or "Speed zone camera ahead! Watch your speed." as though it assumes you are breaking the law, or even that it wants to assist your law-breaking and try to let you avoid getting tickets.
Weird, considering how conservative Apple can be. I guess the overwhelming amount of drivers want and would demand this, so Apple doesn't even see it as a controversial thing.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:35 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anyway it will sometimes say "Red light camera ahead!" or "Speed zone camera ahead! Watch your speed." as though it assumes you are breaking the law, or even that it wants to assist your law-breaking and try to let you avoid getting tickets.
Weird, considering how conservative Apple can be. I guess the overwhelming amount of drivers want and would demand this, so Apple doesn't even see it as a controversial thing.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:35 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Seems so obvious, I don't understand why it hasn't been implemented.
If they did that, would the toll road save enough time to be worth the toll?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:56 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
If they did that, would the toll road save enough time to be worth the toll?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:56 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
The NTSB's citing the accident mentioned in TFA (someone high on PCP, cocaine, driving 103 MPH and blowing through a stop sign and a red light) as justification for requesting legislation which would implement passive warning lights on the dash letting drivers know if they are speeding doesn't make much sense. Choosing a gory edge-case is an attempt to appeal to emotion, and their proposed solution wouldn't even address the primary causes of the accident in question. (Impaired driving, failure to obey traffic control devices, failure of the judicial system to keep repeat driving offenders off the road) Someone out of their gourd on substances isn't going to drive more judiciously because a red light is glowing on their dash letting them know they are speeding. A hard, non user defeatable speed limiter might have mitigated the severity of this accident, but blowing through traffic control devices at the speed limit can kill too.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 4:57 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 4:57 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
I can report from southwestern France, where I drove a fairly decent amount earlier this year. Posted speed limit on the autoroute was 130 km/h, with a 110 just under it with a cartoon raincloud--drive a touch slower in slippery conditions. Translated to American, that's about 82 mph. A very civilized speed to drive, I loved it, and never felt the need to go faster.
At the other end of the scale, speed limits in towns were often 30 km/h (20 mph or so), and that was also very reasonable for the conditions.
Wikipedia has a rundown on experiments in France on lowering speed limits on smaller roads. Brief summary: fewer deaths, but also some protests.
posted by gimonca at 4:59 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
At the other end of the scale, speed limits in towns were often 30 km/h (20 mph or so), and that was also very reasonable for the conditions.
Wikipedia has a rundown on experiments in France on lowering speed limits on smaller roads. Brief summary: fewer deaths, but also some protests.
posted by gimonca at 4:59 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Anyway it will sometimes say "Red light camera ahead!" or "Speed zone camera ahead! Watch your speed." as though it assumes you are breaking the law, or even that it wants to assist your law-breaking and try to let you avoid getting tickets.
But.... that's exactly what we want. Where I live (Victoria, Australia) the law is that red light cameras or speed cameras must have clear signage 250 meters and 50 meters before the enforcement zone indicating there is a camera.
The idea is to reduce the number of people speeding through an area that is known to have fatalities, not trick them into speeding there and then catch them afterwards to generate revenue...
posted by xdvesper at 5:14 PM on November 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
But.... that's exactly what we want. Where I live (Victoria, Australia) the law is that red light cameras or speed cameras must have clear signage 250 meters and 50 meters before the enforcement zone indicating there is a camera.
The idea is to reduce the number of people speeding through an area that is known to have fatalities, not trick them into speeding there and then catch them afterwards to generate revenue...
posted by xdvesper at 5:14 PM on November 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
toodleydoodley: I see the same problem but opposite conclusion – right now, those people’s bosses are allow to skimp on staffing and shift risk to the employees because they know they can and there’ll be no record of them telling someone to break the law. Reliable enforcement flips that entirely because those orders are now impossible to follow and breaking the law would require them to tell people to go to some kind of black market auto mechanic which is much riskier.
LMAO no those bosses will demand the same performance and simply churn through employees, which they're already doing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:45 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
LMAO no those bosses will demand the same performance and simply churn through employees, which they're already doing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:45 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would love this. It would save so many lives.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:45 PM on November 16, 2023
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:45 PM on November 16, 2023
The idea is to reduce the number of people speeding through an area that is known to have fatalities, not trick them into speeding there and then catch them afterwards to generate revenue...Yes, but then you need widespread deployment - otherwise everyone learns to slam on the brakes when they hear the warning and speed everywhere they don’t. It’s not much of a safety improvement if speeds are only reduced on a single 100m stretch everyone knows about.
posted by adamsc at 6:53 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Red Barchetta
posted by mfoight at 4:40 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mfoight at 4:40 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Australian permanent posted cameras are about targeted reduction of speed at a problem area- everyone learns to slow down where there have been accidents. It’s a real and genuine safety improvement if speeds are reduced on problem areas until they can be redesigned where possible. You can speed elsewhere, but there are a range of strategies to deal with that.
posted by zamboni at 4:42 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by zamboni at 4:42 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
If automatic lane holding is the comparison, then I don't want it. After driving a rental car in country Australia and constantly fighting it to avoid potholes, I would never want a vehicle where this wasn't permanently disableable.They recently added having lane keeping assistance that can't be disabled by a single button press as a requirement to score 5 stars on the euro NCAP safety standard.
Sounds like a good idea, but what it means in practice is that the manufacturers of cheap cars are installing the cheapest possible lane keeping system they can get their hands on because they need a 5 star safety rating for sales purposes and they operate at thin margins.
So the customer ends up with a lane keeping system that can occasionally misread the sides of country lanes and other non standard road edges and start trying to steer you off the road or into opposing traffic. And you have to go poking around the car's menu system every time you start up the car to disable it.
posted by zymil at 4:56 AM on November 17, 2023
During the period when Montana didn't have daytime speed limits, I was driving on I-90 there and discovered that my 1996 Chevy S-10 pickup truck had a governor that kicked in at 80mph.
posted by rmd1023 at 5:18 AM on November 17, 2023
posted by rmd1023 at 5:18 AM on November 17, 2023
There needs to be an emergency override to break the speed limit in an emergency like
"fleeing a bushfire/forest fire"
"driving someone to hospital in a medical emergency because the ambulance couldn't come soon enough"
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 6:36 AM on November 17, 2023
"fleeing a bushfire/forest fire"
"driving someone to hospital in a medical emergency because the ambulance couldn't come soon enough"
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 6:36 AM on November 17, 2023
"driving someone to hospital in a medical emergency because the ambulance couldn't come soon enough"
Fuck no.
Ambulances with all their flashing lights and priority only get to ride above the limit by a few km/h. A typical driver with the added stress of somebody injured in his vehicle, with no way to signal it to other vehicles, is that last thing you want going over the speed limit. These limits are there for you and others, the security needs of others don't dissapear because you're in need.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:48 AM on November 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
Fuck no.
Ambulances with all their flashing lights and priority only get to ride above the limit by a few km/h. A typical driver with the added stress of somebody injured in his vehicle, with no way to signal it to other vehicles, is that last thing you want going over the speed limit. These limits are there for you and others, the security needs of others don't dissapear because you're in need.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:48 AM on November 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
Comparing this thread to almost any of the ebike threads where people are generally really vocal about accepting and demanding ebike speed/power limits is totally wild, y'all. And this is why I think ebike speed and power limits are anti-ebike and pro-car.
If I was more clever I would whip up a script to cross reference the comments in this thread to any of the ebike threads to see how many people are all for mandatory mechanically enforced speed limits on ebikes but anti speed limits on cars.
posted by loquacious at 7:50 AM on November 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
If I was more clever I would whip up a script to cross reference the comments in this thread to any of the ebike threads to see how many people are all for mandatory mechanically enforced speed limits on ebikes but anti speed limits on cars.
posted by loquacious at 7:50 AM on November 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
A few people have noted this, but at least in urban areas, the physical design of streets is more effective than posted speed limit signs. If a street is flat, straight, and wide with broad visibility, people will drive well over a 25mph speed limit. This seems like a solved problem (see Netherlands, of course).
posted by idb at 8:01 AM on November 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by idb at 8:01 AM on November 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
And this is why I think ebike speed and power limits are anti-ebike and pro-car.
given some of the stats for my region, I view ebike limits as driven mainly by concern for ebikers and maybe pedestrians.
posted by philip-random at 8:46 AM on November 17, 2023
given some of the stats for my region, I view ebike limits as driven mainly by concern for ebikers and maybe pedestrians.
posted by philip-random at 8:46 AM on November 17, 2023
I would like it if we could view *car* speed limiters as driven mainly by concern for cyclists and pedestrians. But alas...
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:54 AM on November 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:54 AM on November 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
I imagine that I may be coming across as pro-car in this thread. I'm not. Much as I do love the things when they're put to proper use.
Recently, a young woman pedestrian was killed less than two hundred feet from my front door, a major transit route. She was ruled one hundred percent at fault (jaywalking). To me, this just illustrates how absurd the situation is, how we (as many have pointed out already) mutely accept so many deaths and injuries and the related trauma ricocheting through families and loved ones as just "business as usual".
We can't accept this status quo, because to accept absurdity is to become absurd.
What I take serious issue with is the notion that science, big-tech, a broadening of the surveillance state is somehow the answer (and an simple one). Nothing is simple about any of this. I imagine the way we will get to where we need to be is similar to what has happened with cigarettes.
1. Health threat established as scientific fact.
2. Acceptance of this fact by the greater culture, but meaningful change is a non-stop war with vested interests the whole way to the point that it seems at times that nothing will ever really topple the corporate interests and the shareholders they serve.
3. Finally (very suddenly in some situations) change does come. Not everywhere but most places. In a period of maybe ten years, that health threat that seemed ubiquitous and eternal shifts to contained, excluded, even criminal.
To my mind, how we shift from 2 to 3 is via the culture, the movies, the books, the TV shows, the jokes, the everything. Yeah, tech may be a big part of how all of this actually comes to be. But the culture needs to pull its shift first.
posted by philip-random at 9:52 AM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Recently, a young woman pedestrian was killed less than two hundred feet from my front door, a major transit route. She was ruled one hundred percent at fault (jaywalking). To me, this just illustrates how absurd the situation is, how we (as many have pointed out already) mutely accept so many deaths and injuries and the related trauma ricocheting through families and loved ones as just "business as usual".
We can't accept this status quo, because to accept absurdity is to become absurd.
What I take serious issue with is the notion that science, big-tech, a broadening of the surveillance state is somehow the answer (and an simple one). Nothing is simple about any of this. I imagine the way we will get to where we need to be is similar to what has happened with cigarettes.
1. Health threat established as scientific fact.
2. Acceptance of this fact by the greater culture, but meaningful change is a non-stop war with vested interests the whole way to the point that it seems at times that nothing will ever really topple the corporate interests and the shareholders they serve.
3. Finally (very suddenly in some situations) change does come. Not everywhere but most places. In a period of maybe ten years, that health threat that seemed ubiquitous and eternal shifts to contained, excluded, even criminal.
To my mind, how we shift from 2 to 3 is via the culture, the movies, the books, the TV shows, the jokes, the everything. Yeah, tech may be a big part of how all of this actually comes to be. But the culture needs to pull its shift first.
posted by philip-random at 9:52 AM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
And this is why I think ebike speed and power limits are anti-ebike and pro-car.
Of course they are. The cities that regulate rental scooters are able to set different maximum speed limits [that cannot be surpassed without technical knowledge] in different parts of town.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:55 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Of course they are. The cities that regulate rental scooters are able to set different maximum speed limits [that cannot be surpassed without technical knowledge] in different parts of town.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:55 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I sometimes get cranky about the "speed trap ahead" crowdsourcing on the GPS app I use. I'm not interested in reporting where speed enforcement is taking place (except for the actual bad faith speed traps), I want to note police or tow truck activity because on a multilane highway you're supposed to move out of the proximate lane to reduce the chance of hitting someone.
posted by Karmakaze at 1:58 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Karmakaze at 1:58 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
1996 Chevy S-10 pickup truck had a governor that kicked in at 80mph.
It's actually pretty common for vehicles to be governed to the speed rating of their stock tires. Most noticable with light trucks with actual truck tires which tend to have modest ratings. Most cars, SUVs, and poser trucks running SUV tires have at least S rated tires and you have to be flogging it fairly hard to notice.
posted by Mitheral at 5:39 AM on November 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's actually pretty common for vehicles to be governed to the speed rating of their stock tires. Most noticable with light trucks with actual truck tires which tend to have modest ratings. Most cars, SUVs, and poser trucks running SUV tires have at least S rated tires and you have to be flogging it fairly hard to notice.
posted by Mitheral at 5:39 AM on November 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Holy shiiit, for a bunch of outspoken progressives, you folks sure are almost unanimously willing to let your lives be controlled by a bunch of machines—machines that are produced by and in the service of capitalism and authoritarianism. Watch poor and black people get tickets at waaayy higher rates.
Just wow. This is NOT the way to get cars off the road and people onto transit. It's like lecturing people about vegetarianism or rationalizing the calendar or making sure their winter holiday display has no trace of Christianity: one of those things that seem perfectly rational and reasonable to a certain sort of progressive, which taken in a vacuum they might be, but holy shit does it turn otherwise persuadable people into conservatives come election season. Hell, you force a governor or some bleating voice on my car, even I might think about voting red for a cycle or two just to make it perfectly clear.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:56 PM on November 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Just wow. This is NOT the way to get cars off the road and people onto transit. It's like lecturing people about vegetarianism or rationalizing the calendar or making sure their winter holiday display has no trace of Christianity: one of those things that seem perfectly rational and reasonable to a certain sort of progressive, which taken in a vacuum they might be, but holy shit does it turn otherwise persuadable people into conservatives come election season. Hell, you force a governor or some bleating voice on my car, even I might think about voting red for a cycle or two just to make it perfectly clear.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:56 PM on November 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
outgrown_hobnail you need to read the linked article, and then read the comments. There's not going to be any governers or bleating voices, stop straw manning. There's not even going to be any "tickets given to black people" - this is the NTSB! Not the police!
These are genuine, proven, safety enhancements that the vast majority of users will appreciate having. Yes, there were people who were violently opposed to having seat belts in their vehicles, but the evidence that they save lives is clear and undisputed now.
A pedestrian being hit by a car at 30kmph has only a 10% chance of being killed. This rises to 90% at 50kmph. Humans are not perfect operators of heavy machinery, and during a moment of distraction, it's possible to forget what speed we're at. It's the same for any other driver assist technology like rear view cameras to stop people squashing their kids in the driveway while backing out, electronic stability control to stop people spinning out into a tree because of oil or ice on the road, automatic emergency braking where you got distracted for a moment and the car in front of you braked. None of those technologies will prevent you driving the way you want to drive, neither will these active and passive speed limiters.
Imagine being 20 years old, just got your license, and you killed a pedestrian and were found to be at fault. How would that affect the rest of your life's trajectory?
posted by xdvesper at 6:08 PM on November 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
These are genuine, proven, safety enhancements that the vast majority of users will appreciate having. Yes, there were people who were violently opposed to having seat belts in their vehicles, but the evidence that they save lives is clear and undisputed now.
A pedestrian being hit by a car at 30kmph has only a 10% chance of being killed. This rises to 90% at 50kmph. Humans are not perfect operators of heavy machinery, and during a moment of distraction, it's possible to forget what speed we're at. It's the same for any other driver assist technology like rear view cameras to stop people squashing their kids in the driveway while backing out, electronic stability control to stop people spinning out into a tree because of oil or ice on the road, automatic emergency braking where you got distracted for a moment and the car in front of you braked. None of those technologies will prevent you driving the way you want to drive, neither will these active and passive speed limiters.
Imagine being 20 years old, just got your license, and you killed a pedestrian and were found to be at fault. How would that affect the rest of your life's trajectory?
posted by xdvesper at 6:08 PM on November 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
...that the vast majority of users will appreciate having.
No they fucking will not. And your "proven safety enhancement" will be the cause of that 20yo being distracted enough to hit the pedestrian in the first place.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:06 PM on November 18, 2023
No they fucking will not. And your "proven safety enhancement" will be the cause of that 20yo being distracted enough to hit the pedestrian in the first place.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:06 PM on November 18, 2023
you folks sure are almost unanimously willing to let your lives be controlled by a bunch of machinesWhat a silly thing to say. Is it Machine Dominance that my e-bike has a speed governor? Rental scooters? Why is it OK that micromobility solutions are subject to Dystopian Authoritarian Control, and not the two-ton machines which actually kill people? Is that not ass-backwards?
Watch poor and black people get tickets at waaayy higher rates.It seems to me it's the complete opposite. One of the nice things about automating and standardizing penalties for dangerously breaking traffic laws is that it reduces the amount of enforcement bias. You're not even proposing a mechanism for disparate harm, so it's an empty statement.
This is NOT the way to get cars off the road and people onto transit.The only strategy that works is carrots and sticks. Non-car options have to get nicer (much, much nicer), and the car has to become slower and less convenient.
We agree that reactionism is a major challenge, but avoiding the problem indefinitely isn't a solution.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:19 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Watch poor and black people get tickets at waaayy higher rates.This is what’s happening now, and the proposed systems end it. More importantly, however, do you know who drivers are disproportionately harming with their cars now? If you truly care about poor and black people, not having them killed or suffering life-changing injuries are disproportionately high rates should be important, and the history of housing and highway development in this country means that the many downsides of cars are especially concentrated where they live.
White Americans biked at almost four times the distance per capita as Black Americans, but Black Americans died at more than 4 times the rate (4.5) per mile cycling than White Americans. Compared to White Americans, Black Americans also experienced traffic deaths at more than twice the rate (2.2) per mile walking, and nearly twice the rate (1.7) per mile driving or riding in a car.https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/racial-disparities-traffic-fatalities/
posted by adamsc at 5:47 AM on November 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
One thing this thread has reminded me: when a privileged person angrily says some proposal or other will make things dramatically worse for poor people, they're actually saying it will be a slightly inconvenience for them personally.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:20 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:20 AM on November 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
This is NOT the way to get cars off the road and people onto transit.
It isn't meant to any more than seatbelts, DRLs, CHMSLs, airbags, backup cameras or airbags. Though I got to admit a person switching to transit because they don't want to wear a seatbelt would be novel. It's meant to increase safety for vehicle users. The triggering event for this recommendation was a multi vehicle pile up.
posted by Mitheral at 9:19 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
It isn't meant to any more than seatbelts, DRLs, CHMSLs, airbags, backup cameras or airbags. Though I got to admit a person switching to transit because they don't want to wear a seatbelt would be novel. It's meant to increase safety for vehicle users. The triggering event for this recommendation was a multi vehicle pile up.
posted by Mitheral at 9:19 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Results from a terrible, no good, very bad NYC implementation of authoritarian capitalist machine control over driver's lives. /s
When I think about cars driving fast in cities I think about this crash four years back. If motor vehicles were automatically limited to reasonable speeds while within city limits, today that toddler would be learning their times tables. Instead they'll be three years old forever. For what?
I think about our streets being used as a racetrack for men too young to understand that they're playing Russian roulette with others' lives.
Is there any number of corpses that will convince people to put limits on these infernal machines?
posted by daveliepmann at 10:55 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
When I think about cars driving fast in cities I think about this crash four years back. If motor vehicles were automatically limited to reasonable speeds while within city limits, today that toddler would be learning their times tables. Instead they'll be three years old forever. For what?
I think about our streets being used as a racetrack for men too young to understand that they're playing Russian roulette with others' lives.
Is there any number of corpses that will convince people to put limits on these infernal machines?
posted by daveliepmann at 10:55 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
If they did that, would the toll road save enough time to be worth the toll?
Yes, yes it would.
posted by pickinganameismuchharderthanihadanticipated at 5:54 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes, yes it would.
posted by pickinganameismuchharderthanihadanticipated at 5:54 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
A very good point from NYC's Transportation Alternatives:
posted by daveliepmann at 7:53 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
When New Yorkers drink and drive, we use built-in breathalyzer technology to prevent them from doing it again.In context of a driver with six school zone speeding tickets in three months who then hits a cyclist & gets merely a ticket.
We can do the same to prevent dangerous speeding.
...
We need mandatory speed governors for repeat reckless drivers.
posted by daveliepmann at 7:53 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I live in New Zealand. Speed limits here are pretty firmly enforced, by fixed cameras and by police in cars with radar detectors. Until earlier this year, it was common knowledge that at normal times, anything over Limit+9 would get you a ticket, and anything over Limit+20 would get you points. (On holiday weekends, good luck going Limit+1 without getting a ticket.) You can only get points two or three times before you lose your license. Recently the cops have announced that the Limit+9 enforcement barrier is going away. I don't know what the tolerance zone is now but a friend got pinged doing Limit+3 so it's somewhere around there.
A device called an e-road is getting more popular, mainly in company cars. It's installed by the company to monitor employee driving and presumably reduce their insurance premium, and it yells at you in the moment and sends an email to your employer when you go over the speed limit or brake too hard. Their mapping isn't perfect but it's pretty good. There are enough company vehicles on most roads that the overton window around speeding is slowly but surely shifting.
I used to live in the UK where having your car insured was mandatory, and insurers offered a huge raft of safety features you could volunteer to install in your car to reduce the premium. Curfews, speed limiters, alcohol interlocks, black boxes, and nana cars were all very popular with the young and broke crowd.
I'm a huge fan of both adaptive cruise control and automatic lanekeeping.
[disclaimer, our cops are not armed and while they have their issues, there is a national police force, not a county or city one, and it's very rare national headline news when a cop kills or seriously injures someone, calling the cops on someone doing dangerously stupid shit is more likely to get total apathy than any response at all, let alone a lethal one.]
posted by ngaiotonga at 5:53 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
A device called an e-road is getting more popular, mainly in company cars. It's installed by the company to monitor employee driving and presumably reduce their insurance premium, and it yells at you in the moment and sends an email to your employer when you go over the speed limit or brake too hard. Their mapping isn't perfect but it's pretty good. There are enough company vehicles on most roads that the overton window around speeding is slowly but surely shifting.
I used to live in the UK where having your car insured was mandatory, and insurers offered a huge raft of safety features you could volunteer to install in your car to reduce the premium. Curfews, speed limiters, alcohol interlocks, black boxes, and nana cars were all very popular with the young and broke crowd.
I'm a huge fan of both adaptive cruise control and automatic lanekeeping.
[disclaimer, our cops are not armed and while they have their issues, there is a national police force, not a county or city one, and it's very rare national headline news when a cop kills or seriously injures someone, calling the cops on someone doing dangerously stupid shit is more likely to get total apathy than any response at all, let alone a lethal one.]
posted by ngaiotonga at 5:53 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
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But the real problem with using technology to reduce speeding in cars is that we still have cars in a car-centric world we intentionally built.
Over 12,000 deaths a year due to speed (not including drunk driving, texting while driving, negligent driving, road rage driving, and just plain driving) and we just shrug and say that's how life is.
Motherf***er, a week ago at 3 am we just decided it would be 2 am. We are not powerless to do anything about this.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:27 AM on November 16, 2023 [52 favorites]