Americans live on 30 mph streets, not on the set of Fast and Furious.
August 9, 2021 11:02 AM Subscribe
I feel like nobody is talking about the recent worrying trend of big trucks (mostly Jeeps?) with those aftermarket eyebrow add-ons that turn their headlights into angry eyes? Like why are there so many people paying extra money so they can drive around looking like the bad guys from a Cars movie??
posted by theodolite at 11:14 AM on August 9, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 11:14 AM on August 9, 2021 [19 favorites]
That actually sounds like truth in advertising! "Hi, I'm dangerous and I know it!"
posted by aniola at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by aniola at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
You're Not Wrong -- American Trucks And SUVs Have Gotten As Big As WWII Tanks
posted by sammyo at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2021 [38 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2021 [38 favorites]
I don’t actually notice that angry eyes jeeps and other cars that “intimidate” actually are intimidating or that their drivers as a group are better or worse than others.
I see plenty of nastily aggressive drivers in all sorts cars and trucks.
Why can’t people express themselves how they wish?
BTW I drive a station wagon with a blooper from SMB hanging in my rear view mirror. So would not want to rep angry eyed cars myself.
And if it does come from toxic masculinity you will not get rid of that by shitting on or banning car choices.
posted by creiszhanson at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
I see plenty of nastily aggressive drivers in all sorts cars and trucks.
Why can’t people express themselves how they wish?
BTW I drive a station wagon with a blooper from SMB hanging in my rear view mirror. So would not want to rep angry eyed cars myself.
And if it does come from toxic masculinity you will not get rid of that by shitting on or banning car choices.
posted by creiszhanson at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's too late for any easy solution to extricate car ownership from American ideas of manhood. That ship sailed over a hundred years ago. See also bicyclists as dorks.
Not sure what ought to be done.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:24 AM on August 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
Not sure what ought to be done.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:24 AM on August 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
And if it does come from toxic masculinity you will not get rid of that by shitting on or banning car choices.
Is rolling my eyes privately at TruckNutz still okay, though?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:30 AM on August 9, 2021 [24 favorites]
Is rolling my eyes privately at TruckNutz still okay, though?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:30 AM on August 9, 2021 [24 favorites]
In regards to trucks, I hate the move to crew cabs all the time and the dearth of the light pickup trucks. Like I actually am tempted by the Ford Maverick, for instance.
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:30 AM on August 9, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:30 AM on August 9, 2021 [15 favorites]
I see plenty of nastily aggressive drivers in all sorts cars and trucks.
Well, actually, friendly drivers texting their friends can kill people just the same.
posted by aniola at 11:31 AM on August 9, 2021 [12 favorites]
Well, actually, friendly drivers texting their friends can kill people just the same.
posted by aniola at 11:31 AM on August 9, 2021 [12 favorites]
As the linked article's title says, 'aggressive' auto ads are (the least) part of the problem. let's also discuss ads that market big crossovers to surburban drivers, or just plain over-powered high-horsepower engines as standard equipment. Who really needs a 6L Powerstroke F350 RAM engine, really?
And tho the speed limit may show 30mph, many suburban streets are designed for smooth traffic flow and therefore higher speeds, with left turn lanes, divided roads, etc. So of course people break the speed limit. If we want to discourage fast aggressive driving, let's install more slow streets and put more roads on a diet too.
posted by TDIpod at 11:33 AM on August 9, 2021 [30 favorites]
And tho the speed limit may show 30mph, many suburban streets are designed for smooth traffic flow and therefore higher speeds, with left turn lanes, divided roads, etc. So of course people break the speed limit. If we want to discourage fast aggressive driving, let's install more slow streets and put more roads on a diet too.
posted by TDIpod at 11:33 AM on August 9, 2021 [30 favorites]
It's too late for any easy solution to extricate car ownership from American ideas of manhood. That ship sailed over a hundred years ago. See also bicyclists as dorks.
As far as I can tell, biking is trendy right now. The idea more than the action. Any time you want to signal "eco" just throw a bike with a basket of flowers into your design somewhere.
posted by aniola at 11:33 AM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
As far as I can tell, biking is trendy right now. The idea more than the action. Any time you want to signal "eco" just throw a bike with a basket of flowers into your design somewhere.
posted by aniola at 11:33 AM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
Why can’t people express themselves how they wish?
I think it's a bit naive to pretend that one's investment in symbols of aggression and violence stops at the symbolic level. Why not fly a Confederate battle flag? It's just a symbol, right? Pretty!
Also banning car choice vs. regulating marketing or engine power is a Newt Gingerich-tier false choice.
posted by klanawa at 11:33 AM on August 9, 2021 [57 favorites]
I think it's a bit naive to pretend that one's investment in symbols of aggression and violence stops at the symbolic level. Why not fly a Confederate battle flag? It's just a symbol, right? Pretty!
Also banning car choice vs. regulating marketing or engine power is a Newt Gingerich-tier false choice.
posted by klanawa at 11:33 AM on August 9, 2021 [57 favorites]
I saw TruckNutz for the first time last week. I knew they existed so when I saw them I immediately pointed them out to my family. My 7 year-old son thought they were really funny but my wife and daughter were less impressed. If I had a truck I'd be tempted to get a pair because they're just so silly, just as long as they aren't associated with hate groups or the like (I am OK with them being associated with dumb men because that's me a lot of the time anyway).
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:35 AM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:35 AM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
drewbage1847: ...the dearth of the light pickup trucks.
I was on vacation last week in beautiful Minnesota (c.f., misterpatrick above), and we talked about this a bunch (in light of the new electric pickups).
I saw mostly trucks, SUVs, and Subarus; the sedans and compacts were mostly older. There just aren't the same choices any more -- buying a new car, you can have a truck (big), SUV (big), crossover (also big), or a Prius (puny now though not especially small compared to 1990s/2000s vehicles), or else a Subaru (which is still 4WD/AWD).
The car companies trimmed back their product lines to the ones that make them the most money. That's pure capitalism, but it's really bad for the Squishy Things that occupy the crosswalks, sidewalks, bicycles, and other spaces beneath the truck's giant tires.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:37 AM on August 9, 2021 [15 favorites]
I was on vacation last week in beautiful Minnesota (c.f., misterpatrick above), and we talked about this a bunch (in light of the new electric pickups).
I saw mostly trucks, SUVs, and Subarus; the sedans and compacts were mostly older. There just aren't the same choices any more -- buying a new car, you can have a truck (big), SUV (big), crossover (also big), or a Prius (puny now though not especially small compared to 1990s/2000s vehicles), or else a Subaru (which is still 4WD/AWD).
The car companies trimmed back their product lines to the ones that make them the most money. That's pure capitalism, but it's really bad for the Squishy Things that occupy the crosswalks, sidewalks, bicycles, and other spaces beneath the truck's giant tires.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:37 AM on August 9, 2021 [15 favorites]
Why can’t people express themselves how they wish?
Because big trucks And SUVs are disproportionately responsible for the deaths of pedestrians and cyclists. That sort of free expression comes with a body count. And that's not even taking into consideration how they impact the environment.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:39 AM on August 9, 2021 [98 favorites]
Because big trucks And SUVs are disproportionately responsible for the deaths of pedestrians and cyclists. That sort of free expression comes with a body count. And that's not even taking into consideration how they impact the environment.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:39 AM on August 9, 2021 [98 favorites]
Bob Lutz had it right when commenting on the concept cars back at the 2001 Detroit Auto Show:
"A whole family of angry kitchen appliances, demented toasters, furious bread machines and vengeful trash compactors.”posted by JoeZydeco at 11:40 AM on August 9, 2021 [17 favorites]
The increasing size of passenger vehicles is extremely problematic for pedestrians and bicyclists and likely one of the drivers of the trend of increasing pedestrian fatalities in the US. While vehicle safety features have worked to cause a decline in vehicle occupant fatalities, pedestrian fatalities are trending up and recently hit a 30-year high. We have an inequitable distribution of energy, yet I see things like OEMs advertising rebates per horsepower you purchase. It's pretty ghoulish.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 11:41 AM on August 9, 2021 [26 favorites]
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 11:41 AM on August 9, 2021 [26 favorites]
Also, I find that the more regularly I ride my bicycle the more I follow speed limits while driving my car. My previous default was taking the speed limit and adding 10km/h and now I just do the limit. If it is the same for other people and not just me then encouraging more bike riding would be a good way to help reduce fast driving.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:43 AM on August 9, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:43 AM on August 9, 2021 [20 favorites]
How about communities passing tough noise pollution laws to crack down on the assholes who have found a way to legally assault pedestrians with muffler noise loud enough to cause permanent hearing damage.
posted by Beholder at 11:46 AM on August 9, 2021 [31 favorites]
posted by Beholder at 11:46 AM on August 9, 2021 [31 favorites]
Why can’t people express themselves how they wish?
SUVs second biggest cause of emissions rise, figures reveal [Guardian]
Growing demand for SUVs was the second largest contributor to the increase in global CO2 emissions from 2010 to 2018, an analysis has found.
In that period, SUVs doubled their global market share from 17% to 39% and their annual emissions rose to more than 700 megatonnes of CO2, more than the yearly total emissions of the UK and the Netherlands combined.
The Dangerous Rise of the Super-Sized Pickup Truck [Bloomberg]
Large pickups and SUVs are notably more lethal to other road users, and their conquest of U.S. roads has been accompanied by a spike in fatalities among pedestrians and bicyclists... the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety and the Detroit Free Press have pointed to the rise in SUVs and large pickups as the main culprit in the pedestrian mortality surge.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:46 AM on August 9, 2021 [26 favorites]
SUVs second biggest cause of emissions rise, figures reveal [Guardian]
Growing demand for SUVs was the second largest contributor to the increase in global CO2 emissions from 2010 to 2018, an analysis has found.
In that period, SUVs doubled their global market share from 17% to 39% and their annual emissions rose to more than 700 megatonnes of CO2, more than the yearly total emissions of the UK and the Netherlands combined.
The Dangerous Rise of the Super-Sized Pickup Truck [Bloomberg]
Large pickups and SUVs are notably more lethal to other road users, and their conquest of U.S. roads has been accompanied by a spike in fatalities among pedestrians and bicyclists... the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety and the Detroit Free Press have pointed to the rise in SUVs and large pickups as the main culprit in the pedestrian mortality surge.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:46 AM on August 9, 2021 [26 favorites]
I thought about this a lot when I came home (alberta) from a trip to indonesia a few years ago - the traffic there felt totally overwhelming, there's cars and scooters everywhere and the roads are huge and the signage and lights are sparser, and yet, I didn't see any instances of road rage, and no one seemed particularly worried or angry or impatient or anything. The drivers just kind of surged into each other, everyone sorted themselves out, and continued on. It was such a different FEELING in traffic - someone would zoom by us (up on the shoulder!) and our driver would be like "wow, big hurry!" like he was seeing someone run past at a full sprint, not remotely angry as that would have made anyone feel here.
It was the first time (especially because I don't drive) that I found out that road rage was like, a cultural problem? That we view cars and driving (and the value of our time "being wasted" by traffic) pretty differently, and pretty angrily. My city has been debating (or maybe finished it's debate) to reduce our residential speed limit from 50kmph to 40kmph, and people were/are SO MAD about it.
I am taking lessons at 35 years old to learn how to drive currently (my husband gets migraines and we've been stranded roadside with them a few times and it'd be nice if I could get us home) and driving feels so dangerous to me. You're in charge of this vehicle that is like, not very responsive really, and so big, and so.. metal. There's a ton to look at and keep track of, and it blows my mind that this is such a cavalier action for most people.
I like to bike around, biking is a very nice way to get most places and my main form of transportation, and I wish more people would do it, but AS more people have started (we're having kind of a moment with the pandemic because no one wanted to take transit) the feeling of "traffic" has started to exist more on my bike paths. People being very impatient, biking WAY too fast, being rude, breaking rules, not knowing the rules, not using courtesy, etc. I'm trying to change my attitude about it, just minding my own business and keeping my cool, but I also find that when I have to use the road drivers have gotten very aggressive to me as a cyclist, which I assume is because there's so many more cyclists who are pissing them off lately.
(please don't honk your horn at cyclists unless it's like, a MAJOR emergency, because horns are designed to be heard from inside another car, and firing off your horn 3 feet behind a cyclist to tell them that they're going too slow in your cul-de-sac or whatever is both painful, and so scary that once I had to pull over and throw up because my heart was beating so fast)
posted by euphoria066 at 12:10 PM on August 9, 2021 [41 favorites]
It was the first time (especially because I don't drive) that I found out that road rage was like, a cultural problem? That we view cars and driving (and the value of our time "being wasted" by traffic) pretty differently, and pretty angrily. My city has been debating (or maybe finished it's debate) to reduce our residential speed limit from 50kmph to 40kmph, and people were/are SO MAD about it.
I am taking lessons at 35 years old to learn how to drive currently (my husband gets migraines and we've been stranded roadside with them a few times and it'd be nice if I could get us home) and driving feels so dangerous to me. You're in charge of this vehicle that is like, not very responsive really, and so big, and so.. metal. There's a ton to look at and keep track of, and it blows my mind that this is such a cavalier action for most people.
I like to bike around, biking is a very nice way to get most places and my main form of transportation, and I wish more people would do it, but AS more people have started (we're having kind of a moment with the pandemic because no one wanted to take transit) the feeling of "traffic" has started to exist more on my bike paths. People being very impatient, biking WAY too fast, being rude, breaking rules, not knowing the rules, not using courtesy, etc. I'm trying to change my attitude about it, just minding my own business and keeping my cool, but I also find that when I have to use the road drivers have gotten very aggressive to me as a cyclist, which I assume is because there's so many more cyclists who are pissing them off lately.
(please don't honk your horn at cyclists unless it's like, a MAJOR emergency, because horns are designed to be heard from inside another car, and firing off your horn 3 feet behind a cyclist to tell them that they're going too slow in your cul-de-sac or whatever is both painful, and so scary that once I had to pull over and throw up because my heart was beating so fast)
posted by euphoria066 at 12:10 PM on August 9, 2021 [41 favorites]
I was parked at the vet one morning during the pandemic waiting in my car for the vet tech to return my animal to me because of said pandemic.
And up next to me pulled an quad-cab bright white F-250 with chrome running boards, blacked out windows, black brush guard and gate guard, something akin to klieg lights on top ... and the pièce de résistance a rear trailer-hitch mounted fake claymore mine with the phrase "Front Toward Enemy" facing anyone daring to pull up behind them in traffic.
I feel badly for these people that need all of that steel, rubber, chrome and faux weapons of destruction to feel safe driving in an exurb in the USA.
That position looks so fragile. It is like we sent men and women to Afghanistan who stared into the abyss of "warlord lifestyle" and thought, "Hey I can do that, too!"
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 12:26 PM on August 9, 2021 [11 favorites]
And up next to me pulled an quad-cab bright white F-250 with chrome running boards, blacked out windows, black brush guard and gate guard, something akin to klieg lights on top ... and the pièce de résistance a rear trailer-hitch mounted fake claymore mine with the phrase "Front Toward Enemy" facing anyone daring to pull up behind them in traffic.
I feel badly for these people that need all of that steel, rubber, chrome and faux weapons of destruction to feel safe driving in an exurb in the USA.
That position looks so fragile. It is like we sent men and women to Afghanistan who stared into the abyss of "warlord lifestyle" and thought, "Hey I can do that, too!"
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 12:26 PM on August 9, 2021 [11 favorites]
Crew cabs are the modern station wagon and twisting them for that duty while making them not look like them means they don't work as trucks anymore. Tiny little boxes; bed rails so high even above average height men can't reach over them; bed heights so high they need to build ladders into tailgates; roof heights that won't fit in garages that are only 20 years old let alone 30 or 40.
posted by Mitheral at 12:28 PM on August 9, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 12:28 PM on August 9, 2021 [13 favorites]
Also want to call out today's radio-play country music. It is entirely about consumption markers for... something? Country? Not sure, but the cost of entry is mud tires and dirt roads. I think for many people driving a pickup truck is part of who they are, and top-40 country both builds on it and reinforces it.
posted by everythings_interrelated at 12:29 PM on August 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by everythings_interrelated at 12:29 PM on August 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
So many angry men is all I can conclude when I encounter these ridiculous vehicles.
posted by maxwelton at 12:36 PM on August 9, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 12:36 PM on August 9, 2021 [11 favorites]
From my Facebook feed just now: Born to make a scene. The Challenger SRT® Hellcat Redeye Widebody is heard by all with its supercharged 6.2L HEMI® High Output SRT® V8 engine.
posted by TedW at 12:41 PM on August 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by TedW at 12:41 PM on August 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
I’ve never come across good stats, but my perception is that road rage is increasingly out of style and will continue to decline as more cars gain distance-adjusting cruise control.
I completely agree that trucks with useful beds are so much better!
posted by michaelh at 12:45 PM on August 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
I completely agree that trucks with useful beds are so much better!
posted by michaelh at 12:45 PM on August 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
See also bicyclists as dorks.
Not always -- at BikePretty, Why do companies put bikes in their ads?
posted by Rash at 12:50 PM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
Not always -- at BikePretty, Why do companies put bikes in their ads?
posted by Rash at 12:50 PM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
Anything that counts as a truck for emissions standards should count as a truck for driving limitations. People wouldn't be as keen to buy a pickup truck or SUV as a daily driver if they were restricted to the right lane on certain highways or had to take the long way around certain residential neighborhoods.
While I'm thinking wishfully here, sound output should be tested in the same way emissions are for an annual registration. There's no reason why any vehicle should be deafening any longer. Muffler technology is pretty mature.
posted by explosion at 12:55 PM on August 9, 2021 [35 favorites]
While I'm thinking wishfully here, sound output should be tested in the same way emissions are for an annual registration. There's no reason why any vehicle should be deafening any longer. Muffler technology is pretty mature.
posted by explosion at 12:55 PM on August 9, 2021 [35 favorites]
That position looks so fragile. It is like we sent men and women to Afghanistan who stared into the abyss of "warlord lifestyle" and thought, "Hey I can do that, too!"
I'm not really a car person, but I've had it explained to me this way, and it seems to make sense: technicals that are the materiel of said warlords are usually a Toyota Hilux or similar. Those exurb-chic monster dually quad-cab pickups wouldn't last five minutes where those Hiluxes are used for that purpose.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:56 PM on August 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
I'm not really a car person, but I've had it explained to me this way, and it seems to make sense: technicals that are the materiel of said warlords are usually a Toyota Hilux or similar. Those exurb-chic monster dually quad-cab pickups wouldn't last five minutes where those Hiluxes are used for that purpose.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:56 PM on August 9, 2021 [10 favorites]
> People wouldn't be as keen to buy a pickup truck or SUV as a daily driver if they were restricted to the right lane on certain highways or had to take the long way around certain residential neighborhoods.
Or if they had to have a CDL to drive one.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 1:02 PM on August 9, 2021 [26 favorites]
Or if they had to have a CDL to drive one.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 1:02 PM on August 9, 2021 [26 favorites]
See also bicyclists as dorks.
I just assume that angry truck guys (and their wives) have seen my taught backside and rock hard quads in spandex and they're jelly.
#projection
posted by klanawa at 1:03 PM on August 9, 2021 [20 favorites]
I just assume that angry truck guys (and their wives) have seen my taught backside and rock hard quads in spandex and they're jelly.
#projection
posted by klanawa at 1:03 PM on August 9, 2021 [20 favorites]
Those exurb-chic monster dually quad-cab pickups wouldn't last five minutes where those Hiluxes are used for that purpose.
Eh. They work fine. . Nissans and old Ford Rangers are used too, it just depends on what is available for export.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:07 PM on August 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Eh. They work fine. . Nissans and old Ford Rangers are used too, it just depends on what is available for export.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:07 PM on August 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Large pickups and SUVs are notably more lethal to other road users, and their conquest of U.S. roads has been accompanied by a spike in fatalities among pedestrians and bicyclists
I want the choice of manslaughter-grill vehicles to earn an automatic increase of legal culpability when they impact anyone, and insurance prices to go up correspondingly.
posted by clew at 1:08 PM on August 9, 2021 [25 favorites]
I want the choice of manslaughter-grill vehicles to earn an automatic increase of legal culpability when they impact anyone, and insurance prices to go up correspondingly.
posted by clew at 1:08 PM on August 9, 2021 [25 favorites]
Regulating car advertising seems pretty weak-sauce compared to, you know, actually regulating cars.
Expanding the "gas guzzler tax", which currently applies only to cars and not to SUVs, trucks, or minivans, would go a long way towards disincentivizing the purchase of ridiculously large, over-engined vehicles.
But hell, I would settle for just enforcing the traffic laws we already have. Traffic law enforcement in the US is comically lax. Except for a few well-known revenue generating speed traps (Emporia, VA—I'm looking at you), it's pretty well understood in my area that you won't get pulled over unless you're well over the limit, or doing something else in addition to speeding (following too closely, weaving lanes, whatever). And we know from experience that traffic laws aren't enforced uniformly when done via human traffic stops, and are often subject to racial bias. But the solution isn't to just stop enforcing traffic laws.
We have the technology to enforce speed limits automatically. It's not even a particularly hard problem at this point. Automatic tolling is probably more difficult, and that's now done all over the place. But speed cameras are, for some reason, extremely controversial—I guess the number of dead children, pedestrians, and cyclists just hasn't gotten high enough for people to look beyond the very minor inconvenience of having to drive the fucking speed limit.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:12 PM on August 9, 2021 [21 favorites]
Expanding the "gas guzzler tax", which currently applies only to cars and not to SUVs, trucks, or minivans, would go a long way towards disincentivizing the purchase of ridiculously large, over-engined vehicles.
But hell, I would settle for just enforcing the traffic laws we already have. Traffic law enforcement in the US is comically lax. Except for a few well-known revenue generating speed traps (Emporia, VA—I'm looking at you), it's pretty well understood in my area that you won't get pulled over unless you're well over the limit, or doing something else in addition to speeding (following too closely, weaving lanes, whatever). And we know from experience that traffic laws aren't enforced uniformly when done via human traffic stops, and are often subject to racial bias. But the solution isn't to just stop enforcing traffic laws.
We have the technology to enforce speed limits automatically. It's not even a particularly hard problem at this point. Automatic tolling is probably more difficult, and that's now done all over the place. But speed cameras are, for some reason, extremely controversial—I guess the number of dead children, pedestrians, and cyclists just hasn't gotten high enough for people to look beyond the very minor inconvenience of having to drive the fucking speed limit.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:12 PM on August 9, 2021 [21 favorites]
And the speed limits everywhere are too high in the first place (in part because everyone drives so far over them).
posted by aniola at 1:31 PM on August 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by aniola at 1:31 PM on August 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
I usually hear anti-EV people talking about how switching to electric won't be a panacea, but this seems like a problem that electric drivetrains will actually worsen. Ford's F150 Lightning will get to 60 as fast as a Lamborghini Countach.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 1:34 PM on August 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 1:34 PM on August 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
This blanket truck hate is ridiculous. It’s rural blindness. People who live outside cities actually need trucks. How else am I supposed to haul hay, get the materials to build our barn and to remodel our house, tow construction equipment, haul the firewood we need to heat our home. It’s true that a lot of the other uses I have for my truck — taking surfboards/paddle boards to the beach, hauling bikes, changing sand-covered kids — could be done in another vehicle. But it’s a hell of a lot more convenient with a truck bed.
posted by not_the_water at 1:45 PM on August 9, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by not_the_water at 1:45 PM on August 9, 2021 [14 favorites]
You're the guy in the ads they use to sell tank-sized vehicles to all the suburbanites.
Who just use them for office commuted and grocery runs.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:50 PM on August 9, 2021 [38 favorites]
Who just use them for office commuted and grocery runs.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:50 PM on August 9, 2021 [38 favorites]
This blanket truck hate is ridiculous.
I'm not sure it is blanket truck hate; I own a pickup and agree that they are very useful. But I see plenty of people who have trucks with high-performance and quasi-military mods that render them less useful as working vehicles but make it easier to intimidate other drivers (and I see this and experience it every day). That aesthetic is addressed in this comic, found via this earlier FPP.
posted by TedW at 1:53 PM on August 9, 2021 [24 favorites]
I'm not sure it is blanket truck hate; I own a pickup and agree that they are very useful. But I see plenty of people who have trucks with high-performance and quasi-military mods that render them less useful as working vehicles but make it easier to intimidate other drivers (and I see this and experience it every day). That aesthetic is addressed in this comic, found via this earlier FPP.
posted by TedW at 1:53 PM on August 9, 2021 [24 favorites]
That aesthetic is addressed in this comic, found via this earlier FPP.
I do a huge amount of car and truck writing and testing, professionally. The stuff referenced by the Any Empire author is interesting, and certainly applies to a portion of the truck-buying public, but as was pointed out earlier most pickups are used as modern station wagons by a demographic that doesn't personalize them in the least and is merely buying what's available on the lot.
My father, for example, ownes multiple trucks (some for work, some as a daily driver), and none of them are militarized murder machines in terms of their aesthetic. When I owned pickups, none of mine were, either. Most of the trucks I see on the road are bone stock.
posted by jordantwodelta at 2:00 PM on August 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
I do a huge amount of car and truck writing and testing, professionally. The stuff referenced by the Any Empire author is interesting, and certainly applies to a portion of the truck-buying public, but as was pointed out earlier most pickups are used as modern station wagons by a demographic that doesn't personalize them in the least and is merely buying what's available on the lot.
My father, for example, ownes multiple trucks (some for work, some as a daily driver), and none of them are militarized murder machines in terms of their aesthetic. When I owned pickups, none of mine were, either. Most of the trucks I see on the road are bone stock.
posted by jordantwodelta at 2:00 PM on August 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
It's a real mystery why people might hate something that's used to threaten their lives on the daily, that's for sure!
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 2:07 PM on August 9, 2021 [33 favorites]
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 2:07 PM on August 9, 2021 [33 favorites]
This blanket truck hate is ridiculous. It’s rural blindness. People who live outside cities actually need trucks.
It's worth considering that rural business was conducted fine w/the pickup trucks available pre-2000, almost all of which were significantly smaller.
posted by ryanshepard at 2:08 PM on August 9, 2021 [45 favorites]
It's worth considering that rural business was conducted fine w/the pickup trucks available pre-2000, almost all of which were significantly smaller.
posted by ryanshepard at 2:08 PM on August 9, 2021 [45 favorites]
This blanket truck hate is ridiculous. It’s rural blindness.
I think it's safe to say most of the comments here are aimed at city/suburb dwellers who drive giant SUVs and trucks and who haven't set foot on a farm in their entire life, and as a city dweller myself I can tell you there are plenty of them.
posted by photo guy at 2:09 PM on August 9, 2021 [25 favorites]
I think it's safe to say most of the comments here are aimed at city/suburb dwellers who drive giant SUVs and trucks and who haven't set foot on a farm in their entire life, and as a city dweller myself I can tell you there are plenty of them.
posted by photo guy at 2:09 PM on August 9, 2021 [25 favorites]
not-the-water, when my mom gave up doing her own hauling her mechanic gleefully bought her truck, which had been my grandfather's truck, because there was so little on the market with as high a bed-to-cab ratio (even though it has a backseat!). Plus very little with as good gas mileage for the bed size, mechanic said. So that's three people in a row who find the current category of Truckz badly built for rural living. (It's a Toyota something.)
posted by clew at 2:14 PM on August 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by clew at 2:14 PM on August 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
And if it does come from toxic masculinity you will not get rid of that by shitting on or banning car choices.
So a) whenever someone suggests a cultural change, someone else claims it's meaningless without regulation to back it up, and whenever someone suggests a regulatory change, someone else claims it's meaningless without a culture shift. Congratulations on somehow doing both at once.
And b) no one suggested either of those things you think won't work. The article is about regulating advertising choices, not "shitting on" anyone nor banning any particular vehicle.
posted by solotoro at 2:16 PM on August 9, 2021 [8 favorites]
So a) whenever someone suggests a cultural change, someone else claims it's meaningless without regulation to back it up, and whenever someone suggests a regulatory change, someone else claims it's meaningless without a culture shift. Congratulations on somehow doing both at once.
And b) no one suggested either of those things you think won't work. The article is about regulating advertising choices, not "shitting on" anyone nor banning any particular vehicle.
posted by solotoro at 2:16 PM on August 9, 2021 [8 favorites]
People who live outside cities actually need trucks. How else am I supposed to haul hay, get the materials to build our barn and to remodel our house, tow construction equipment, haul the firewood we need to heat our home.
Was that an actual question? Because if so, one answer is bikes at work trailers. I have hauled windows, drywall, plywood, 2x4s, compost, sand, paint, really big sheet cakes, and so so so much more.
posted by aniola at 2:19 PM on August 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
Was that an actual question? Because if so, one answer is bikes at work trailers. I have hauled windows, drywall, plywood, 2x4s, compost, sand, paint, really big sheet cakes, and so so so much more.
posted by aniola at 2:19 PM on August 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
Though many people switch from bikes to e-bikes once they have kids.
posted by aniola at 2:23 PM on August 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by aniola at 2:23 PM on August 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
This blanket truck hate is ridiculous. It’s rural blindness. People who live outside cities actually need trucks.
We aren't talking about the people using trucks for actual work. Quite frankly, they are a minority. From an article on the subject from 2019:
posted by Mister Fabulous at 2:25 PM on August 9, 2021 [22 favorites]
We aren't talking about the people using trucks for actual work. Quite frankly, they are a minority. From an article on the subject from 2019:
Truck owners might protest that they are slightly less likely than owners of other categories to use their vehicle as primary transport (83% vs. 95%), limiting the miles and gallons. And they might also protest that trucks provide capabilities that other vehicles lack. But, as it turns out, a significant portion of truck owners never use their trucks for these capabilities. According to Edwards’ data, 75 percent of truck owners use their truck for towing one time a year or less (meaning, never). Nearly 70 percent of truck owners go off-road one time a year or less. And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less.Also, no one that uses their truck on a farm is about to get one of these $70K Raptors that they are selling. Based on the prices lately, it seems 1990s F250 single-cab long beds are way more popular among that set.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 2:25 PM on August 9, 2021 [22 favorites]
It’s rural blindness.
I'm sitting across the road from sixty acres of corn, right now. Beyond that is another forty that's held in the crop reserve program.
...and yet, getting the blackout package doesn't seem to help pull even one more bale of hay.
Spartan logos also don't seem to help. Can't say I've ever tested Truck Nutz -- do you find they help with towing capacity? Judging by how may Calvin decals you can get a the Kwik-Trip, maybe they'd be useful? Hell of a lot cheaper than a 42ft Hayliner, which is what all of the farmers 'round here use. Maybe they're just deluded though, paying $6-7K for a trailer and using their tractor rather than getting some sweet chrome?
I mean, sweet chrome is sweet, right? Gotta have the priorities straight, and nobody says "sweeeeet!" when they see you pulling a Hayliner.
posted by aramaic at 2:29 PM on August 9, 2021 [22 favorites]
I'm sitting across the road from sixty acres of corn, right now. Beyond that is another forty that's held in the crop reserve program.
...and yet, getting the blackout package doesn't seem to help pull even one more bale of hay.
Spartan logos also don't seem to help. Can't say I've ever tested Truck Nutz -- do you find they help with towing capacity? Judging by how may Calvin decals you can get a the Kwik-Trip, maybe they'd be useful? Hell of a lot cheaper than a 42ft Hayliner, which is what all of the farmers 'round here use. Maybe they're just deluded though, paying $6-7K for a trailer and using their tractor rather than getting some sweet chrome?
I mean, sweet chrome is sweet, right? Gotta have the priorities straight, and nobody says "sweeeeet!" when they see you pulling a Hayliner.
posted by aramaic at 2:29 PM on August 9, 2021 [22 favorites]
But it’s a hell of a lot more convenient with a truck bed.
Convenience is an overarching theme in this overall conversation.
- Car companies selling oversized motor vehicles, so people buy them because that's what's there.
- Infrastructure designed for motor vehicles, so people use motor vehicles because that's what's there.
- It's more convenient to use a truck to haul your everything, because that's what the world around you is supporting.
Riding bikes can be a lot of fun. It can also be terrifying and, by some metrics, inconvenient. But one of my favorite parts is hauling things myself anyway. It's very rewarding to know I moved a big thing under my own power.
posted by aniola at 2:30 PM on August 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
Convenience is an overarching theme in this overall conversation.
- Car companies selling oversized motor vehicles, so people buy them because that's what's there.
- Infrastructure designed for motor vehicles, so people use motor vehicles because that's what's there.
- It's more convenient to use a truck to haul your everything, because that's what the world around you is supporting.
Riding bikes can be a lot of fun. It can also be terrifying and, by some metrics, inconvenient. But one of my favorite parts is hauling things myself anyway. It's very rewarding to know I moved a big thing under my own power.
posted by aniola at 2:30 PM on August 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
And I agree that there can be exceptions. But certainly lots more can be done with bikes than is.
posted by aniola at 2:33 PM on August 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by aniola at 2:33 PM on August 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
This blanket truck hate is ridiculous. It’s rural blindness. People who live outside cities actually need trucks.
Here's my litmus test, if you're driving a pickup truck with a flag sticking up in the bed (literally preventing you from using it as intended) then you don't deserve a truck.
posted by jeremias at 2:34 PM on August 9, 2021 [15 favorites]
Here's my litmus test, if you're driving a pickup truck with a flag sticking up in the bed (literally preventing you from using it as intended) then you don't deserve a truck.
posted by jeremias at 2:34 PM on August 9, 2021 [15 favorites]
I’m often reminded that my cargo e-bike has a 20mph governor which is considerably than my upper road bike speed. That happens to be the speed limit for almost the entire city of DC, where I routinely see drivers going 2-3 times the posted limit next to schools, playgrounds, etc. and cars fairly regularly end up well off the road or flipped.
I get that there are some valid equity issues taking cars away until we repair the 20th century’s damage to our transit system but it really seems like you can make a significant amount of improvements for safety, noise, and pollution if getting more than, say, one speeding ticket in a 12 month period meant you got one of those governors people buy for their teenagers set to 25mph so you can still go to work, just not at killing speed.
posted by adamsc at 2:45 PM on August 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
I get that there are some valid equity issues taking cars away until we repair the 20th century’s damage to our transit system but it really seems like you can make a significant amount of improvements for safety, noise, and pollution if getting more than, say, one speeding ticket in a 12 month period meant you got one of those governors people buy for their teenagers set to 25mph so you can still go to work, just not at killing speed.
posted by adamsc at 2:45 PM on August 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don't consider speed limits to be the problem. They are more of a reflection of what people are doing rather than what they should do. The twin problems of roads designed for overly high speeds and the complete lack of thought for pedestrian safety are much bigger issues. It's mainly the latter that's driving the increased rate of pedestrian deaths, though. We've had the bad roads and high speed since long before the death rate spiked.
It sure is a lot easier to place blame on individuals we've othered than it is to contemplate the difficulty of changing the sick systems that drive the individual behavior, though.
The fact is that if you make a place look like pedestrians are expected, people will pay much greater attention. When it looks like pedestrians are at best an afterthought, they won't. If you make a road look like a superhighway, drivers will choose a speed appropriate for a superhighway. If you make a road look less safe, they will drive more slowly. Horsepower ain't got shit to do with it.
These opinions have only been reinforced by my recent move from an area built in the 40s to a much newer and more suburban area where basically all the through streets are super wide, have very few curb cuts, and very few pedestrians. Even on the four lane road in my old neighborhood people might drive quickly, but they were a lot more aware of people not in cars. Where I'm living now, pedestrians are mostly invisible to drivers and it makes walking a lot less comfortable.
It's not a difference in culture between the two places, it's a difference in the built environment. No amount of enforcement can solve the problem. Paint and street trees could help a hell of a lot, though. A full on road diet on at least half the roads would be even better, but that's a financial nonstarter until full reconstruction is required in another 20ish years.
posted by wierdo at 2:52 PM on August 9, 2021 [11 favorites]
It sure is a lot easier to place blame on individuals we've othered than it is to contemplate the difficulty of changing the sick systems that drive the individual behavior, though.
The fact is that if you make a place look like pedestrians are expected, people will pay much greater attention. When it looks like pedestrians are at best an afterthought, they won't. If you make a road look like a superhighway, drivers will choose a speed appropriate for a superhighway. If you make a road look less safe, they will drive more slowly. Horsepower ain't got shit to do with it.
These opinions have only been reinforced by my recent move from an area built in the 40s to a much newer and more suburban area where basically all the through streets are super wide, have very few curb cuts, and very few pedestrians. Even on the four lane road in my old neighborhood people might drive quickly, but they were a lot more aware of people not in cars. Where I'm living now, pedestrians are mostly invisible to drivers and it makes walking a lot less comfortable.
It's not a difference in culture between the two places, it's a difference in the built environment. No amount of enforcement can solve the problem. Paint and street trees could help a hell of a lot, though. A full on road diet on at least half the roads would be even better, but that's a financial nonstarter until full reconstruction is required in another 20ish years.
posted by wierdo at 2:52 PM on August 9, 2021 [11 favorites]
Oh man. That wasn’t a helpful comment on my part. Sorry about that. I could have been a bit more thoughtful then just a knee jerk reaction. I maintain that some people may not realize how helpful a truck can be for people who live outside cities but overall truck “culture” in the US is toxic. Giant pickups are awful. I don’t think my calves are capable of hauling a couple thousand pounds of cement up our hill on a bike trailer but I definitely didn’t mean to imply that trucks get some kind of carte blanche. The whole “giant truck as ego gratification” thing is terrible on so many levels.
posted by not_the_water at 3:03 PM on August 9, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by not_the_water at 3:03 PM on August 9, 2021 [20 favorites]
I think it's safe to say most of the comments here are aimed at city/suburb dwellers who drive giant SUVs and trucks and who haven't set foot on a farm in their entire life, and as a city dweller myself I can tell you there are plenty of them.I would also note that when we have contractors working, they never use $60k macho trucks and when we go out to actual farm country I usually see them only when driving by tourist hotspots where their exurban owners drove them to go wine tasting or something.
If you use your truck for work, low mileage is money out of your income. Expensive parts and higher wear and tear are throwing money away. Tacticool trim and paint jobs are throwing money away on something which is going to get beat up in normal usage. Outside of the owners of large farms, most people in agriculture are not getting rich to the point where they can simply ignore that.
Contrast with where I do see a ton of those: suburban malls and parking lots. Areas where people are richer on average and can buy a pricey vehicle knowing that their Costco trip won’t scratch the rims.
posted by adamsc at 3:15 PM on August 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
But it’s a hell of a lot more convenient with a truck bed.
Know how many times I've been loading 4x8 sheets of plywood and tons of other stuff into the back of my Chrysler minivan and been silently laughing at/mocking the guys next to me trying to figure out how to tie a load down that doesn't fit into the bed of their extended cab truck? It's at least a dozen in the last five years.
On vacation this week, we fit five adults, two surfboards, two beach umbrellas, and five beach chairs into our rental minivan without breaking a sweat. Didn't even have to load anything on the roof. And when we got to the beach, I watched a dad struggle to get the same configuration (with three small kids, instead of my adult kids) into his truck with a lot more trouble than I did. But minivans aren't manly, or something.
Oh, we also have a 3,600 lb tow rating on our van, so there's that.
posted by Ickster at 3:21 PM on August 9, 2021 [18 favorites]
Know how many times I've been loading 4x8 sheets of plywood and tons of other stuff into the back of my Chrysler minivan and been silently laughing at/mocking the guys next to me trying to figure out how to tie a load down that doesn't fit into the bed of their extended cab truck? It's at least a dozen in the last five years.
On vacation this week, we fit five adults, two surfboards, two beach umbrellas, and five beach chairs into our rental minivan without breaking a sweat. Didn't even have to load anything on the roof. And when we got to the beach, I watched a dad struggle to get the same configuration (with three small kids, instead of my adult kids) into his truck with a lot more trouble than I did. But minivans aren't manly, or something.
Oh, we also have a 3,600 lb tow rating on our van, so there's that.
posted by Ickster at 3:21 PM on August 9, 2021 [18 favorites]
This blanket truck hate is ridiculous. It’s rural blindness. People who live outside cities actually need trucks.
Granted, this is an urban observation, but the overwhelming majority of monster trucks I see 1. don't have a tow hitch and 2. are clean enough to eat off of. For people who regularly pull a trailer or wagon, fine. For everyone else, they should be regulated into non existence.
posted by Beholder at 3:22 PM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
Granted, this is an urban observation, but the overwhelming majority of monster trucks I see 1. don't have a tow hitch and 2. are clean enough to eat off of. For people who regularly pull a trailer or wagon, fine. For everyone else, they should be regulated into non existence.
posted by Beholder at 3:22 PM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
I don't consider speed limits to be the problem. [...] No amount of enforcement can solve the problem. Paint and street trees could help a hell of a lot, though.
I guess I'm going to disagree with you there. I'm certainly not against "road diets", horizontal shifts, lane narrowing, street trees, or even more overt behavior-modification like speed tables/bumps, but they all seem to be indirect ways of coming at the problem, which is that people drive too fucking fast. Speed kills, it really does. Even the AAA admits that much. And it's a nonlinear relationship: the difference between 39 MPH and 46 MPH—that's only a 6 MPH increase, far less than the typical +10 that most people drive above the limit in my neighborhood—is the difference between a 75% and 90% fatality rate for a pedestrian.
I can certainly buy that in some circumstances where more overt enforcement is not politically feasible, and that may be much of the US at this moment, such indirect measures may be all that we have to work with. I'm not advocating making the perfect the enemy of the good.
If I have to live on a street with unenforced speed limits, I'd rather it be one with narrow lanes, wide shoulders, speed bumps, street trees, etc. But I'd rather live on one where the speed limits are actually enforced. Ideally uniformly and automatically, without regard for things like the race of the driver, or how nice the car is, or other things that seem to distract human traffic cops.
And my experience is that speed cameras work. I had a friend who used to live on River Rd. in Maryland, where there is (somewhat infamously) a speed camera where it passes through a residential area. He would caution us, whenever folks were coming over to hang out, about the camera. Inevitably, some people would ignore the warning and get a ticket. But generally only once! And the traffic near the camera really does slow down to the limit, in a way I have rarely seen it do otherwise.
Like the 25 cent deposit that Aldi requires for returning shopping carts to their proper place, it's amazing what you can do with a relatively minor financial incentive, when it's applied uniformly and automatically. I don't think we need to have thousand-dollar speeding tickets to deter people from driving like assholes: we just need to make sure that, if you do speed, you get caught and fined, immediately and mechanically.
I am personally not interested or willing to wait for wholesale road reconstruction just to stop people from driving at ridiculous, unlawful, and dangerous speeds through residential areas. We have the technology. We just need to use it.
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:31 PM on August 9, 2021 [8 favorites]
I guess I'm going to disagree with you there. I'm certainly not against "road diets", horizontal shifts, lane narrowing, street trees, or even more overt behavior-modification like speed tables/bumps, but they all seem to be indirect ways of coming at the problem, which is that people drive too fucking fast. Speed kills, it really does. Even the AAA admits that much. And it's a nonlinear relationship: the difference between 39 MPH and 46 MPH—that's only a 6 MPH increase, far less than the typical +10 that most people drive above the limit in my neighborhood—is the difference between a 75% and 90% fatality rate for a pedestrian.
I can certainly buy that in some circumstances where more overt enforcement is not politically feasible, and that may be much of the US at this moment, such indirect measures may be all that we have to work with. I'm not advocating making the perfect the enemy of the good.
If I have to live on a street with unenforced speed limits, I'd rather it be one with narrow lanes, wide shoulders, speed bumps, street trees, etc. But I'd rather live on one where the speed limits are actually enforced. Ideally uniformly and automatically, without regard for things like the race of the driver, or how nice the car is, or other things that seem to distract human traffic cops.
And my experience is that speed cameras work. I had a friend who used to live on River Rd. in Maryland, where there is (somewhat infamously) a speed camera where it passes through a residential area. He would caution us, whenever folks were coming over to hang out, about the camera. Inevitably, some people would ignore the warning and get a ticket. But generally only once! And the traffic near the camera really does slow down to the limit, in a way I have rarely seen it do otherwise.
Like the 25 cent deposit that Aldi requires for returning shopping carts to their proper place, it's amazing what you can do with a relatively minor financial incentive, when it's applied uniformly and automatically. I don't think we need to have thousand-dollar speeding tickets to deter people from driving like assholes: we just need to make sure that, if you do speed, you get caught and fined, immediately and mechanically.
I am personally not interested or willing to wait for wholesale road reconstruction just to stop people from driving at ridiculous, unlawful, and dangerous speeds through residential areas. We have the technology. We just need to use it.
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:31 PM on August 9, 2021 [8 favorites]
American Trucks And SUVs Have Gotten As Big As WWII Tanks
Rather silly, given that the world's most intimidating pickup truck is a comparatively small 1980's era Toyota Hilux (with crew served machine gun mount).
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 3:35 PM on August 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Rather silly, given that the world's most intimidating pickup truck is a comparatively small 1980's era Toyota Hilux (with crew served machine gun mount).
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 3:35 PM on August 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
We have the technology to enforce speed limits automatically
As a city bike rider I often wonder why cars are electronically allowed to go over the speed limit in high density areas. Isn’t it possible to limit speeds with geofencing? Politically, obviously this would go nowhere but the increase in car/truck size coupled with the increase in speeding and distracted driving during the pandemic has made being a biker in the city more scary than ever before.
posted by Bunglegirl at 3:56 PM on August 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
As a city bike rider I often wonder why cars are electronically allowed to go over the speed limit in high density areas. Isn’t it possible to limit speeds with geofencing? Politically, obviously this would go nowhere but the increase in car/truck size coupled with the increase in speeding and distracted driving during the pandemic has made being a biker in the city more scary than ever before.
posted by Bunglegirl at 3:56 PM on August 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
I guess I'm going to disagree with you there. I'm certainly not against "road diets", horizontal shifts, lane narrowing, street trees, or even more overt behavior-modification like speed tables/bumps, but they all seem to be indirect ways of coming at the problem, which is that people drive too fucking fast. Speed kills, it really does. Even the AAA admits that much. And it's a nonlinear relationship: the difference between 39 MPH and 46 MPH—that's only a 6 MPH increase, far less than the typical +10 that most people drive above the limit in my neighborhood—is the difference between a 75% and 90% fatality rate for a pedestrian.
If true, it’s only a matter of time before car insurance will become prohibitively expensive for those who regularly speed. We’ll all have trackers plugged into our cars as a condition of coverage. Panopticon has its benefits.
posted by leotrotsky at 4:05 PM on August 9, 2021
If true, it’s only a matter of time before car insurance will become prohibitively expensive for those who regularly speed. We’ll all have trackers plugged into our cars as a condition of coverage. Panopticon has its benefits.
posted by leotrotsky at 4:05 PM on August 9, 2021
As a city bike rider I often wonder why cars are electronically allowed to go over the speed limit in high density areas. Isn’t it possible to limit speeds with geofencing?
Being able to temporarily accelerate facilitates passing and can prevent accidents. It’s habitual speeding that’s the issue.
posted by leotrotsky at 4:07 PM on August 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Being able to temporarily accelerate facilitates passing and can prevent accidents. It’s habitual speeding that’s the issue.
posted by leotrotsky at 4:07 PM on August 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
In Toronto the city has given each ward 2 speed cameras to use as the local councilor thinks is appropriate. They seem to do a pretty good job of issuing tickets but I do wonder why we have limited ourselves to 50 of these cameras for the whole city when we could conceivably have a lot more. I can think of a dozen stretches of road in my neighbourhood alone where people routinely speed a significant amount over the limit and would easily be money makers for the city with all the speeding fines cameras could collect.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:14 PM on August 9, 2021
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:14 PM on August 9, 2021
I’ve been thinking about speed enforcement for a VERY long time. When I was 16, driving between Twin Falls and Salt Late City, I was pulled over for exceeding the speed limit by 3 miles an hour, and given a warning. Then a few years later, the national 55 mph limit was instituted, and for a while, the nation put up with it. Then, the gas crisis was over. The feds observed how many lives were saved and made it permanent. In short order, US drivers said Fuck that! And figured out how fast they could go before they’d get a ticket. After way too long, the laws were amended. But law breaking has continued apace. Now, we’ve arrived at a place where law enforcement is, practically, over.
The bright side is that you have a perfect cudgel to beat conservatives over the head with, whenever they use “It’s the law!” As an argument for anything.
The dark side is obvious, everybody is a lawbreaker, so cops get to pick and choose who to pull over.
posted by Carmody'sPrize at 4:44 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
The bright side is that you have a perfect cudgel to beat conservatives over the head with, whenever they use “It’s the law!” As an argument for anything.
The dark side is obvious, everybody is a lawbreaker, so cops get to pick and choose who to pull over.
posted by Carmody'sPrize at 4:44 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
On vacation this week, we fit five adults, two surfboards, two beach umbrellas, and five beach chairs into our rental minivan without breaking a sweat.
I'm going to disagree and wonder why minivans don't get an equal amount of crap as pickups do. My Honda minivan is as long as a Chevy Tahoe, and is slightly longer than my dad's crewcab pickup he uses for work. No wonder it can fit lots of stuff (if you take out the seats and all the junk)! Gas mileage isn't great. Turning radius in a city and parking is terrible. And though it seats 8, the average crew is 4 or less. I can fit that in my car. It's also faster than an old muscle car, and can surpass 100mph no problem.
You even have to buy a really expensive one before it even comes with a trailer hitch or roof racks, so I don't know how you got people and surfboards in there comfortably.
But since they are driven by suburban moms and dads (just trying their best) and they don't get lifts they are somehow ok. Minivans are part of the same problem pickups are.
posted by The_Vegetables at 5:01 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm going to disagree and wonder why minivans don't get an equal amount of crap as pickups do. My Honda minivan is as long as a Chevy Tahoe, and is slightly longer than my dad's crewcab pickup he uses for work. No wonder it can fit lots of stuff (if you take out the seats and all the junk)! Gas mileage isn't great. Turning radius in a city and parking is terrible. And though it seats 8, the average crew is 4 or less. I can fit that in my car. It's also faster than an old muscle car, and can surpass 100mph no problem.
You even have to buy a really expensive one before it even comes with a trailer hitch or roof racks, so I don't know how you got people and surfboards in there comfortably.
But since they are driven by suburban moms and dads (just trying their best) and they don't get lifts they are somehow ok. Minivans are part of the same problem pickups are.
posted by The_Vegetables at 5:01 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
Speed cameras present serious constitutional issues in states where tickets are necessarily a misdemeanor, which is not a small number of them. Plus they don't do shit except slow people down in that 100 feet or so. Great if you've got one next to you, I guess. But if you're doing that, why not spend the money on a bulb out instead? Narrowing the street works even when people aren't warned ahead of time.
We've tried enforcement. Over and over and over again. It doesn't work except at best temporarily. One need not commit to a full reconstruction to get some speed reduction. Narrowing lanes and separating wider bike lanes with plastic poles helps, to pick one of many possibilities. As someone who doesn't even own a damn car, I totally get the urge to be punitive. What I don't get is the insistence on measures that we've already tried without success. I guess it feels good to feel like we're sticking it to the assholes?
There is something that works better than getting drivers to slow down, by the way. Getting them to pay attention to their goddamned surroundings so nobody gets hit in the first place.
posted by wierdo at 5:03 PM on August 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
We've tried enforcement. Over and over and over again. It doesn't work except at best temporarily. One need not commit to a full reconstruction to get some speed reduction. Narrowing lanes and separating wider bike lanes with plastic poles helps, to pick one of many possibilities. As someone who doesn't even own a damn car, I totally get the urge to be punitive. What I don't get is the insistence on measures that we've already tried without success. I guess it feels good to feel like we're sticking it to the assholes?
There is something that works better than getting drivers to slow down, by the way. Getting them to pay attention to their goddamned surroundings so nobody gets hit in the first place.
posted by wierdo at 5:03 PM on August 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
They put in separated bike lanes on my street. Traffic is now a single, narrow lane each way and yet drivers will still speed on it and even cross over into the oncoming lane in order to pass cars that aren't going fast enough for them. I don't see the problem going away until either the city puts in stop signs (there are presently traffic lights) or puts a speed camera or a police officer there permanently to ticket speeders.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:16 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:16 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
I’m just upset that the older model Ford Ranger is no longer being built. That size/footprint, with the full bed, is my archetypal ideal in a truck. With a shell to haul things out of the weather, and a 6-cyl engine and tow package so it can pull a pop-up camper or small cargo trailer when needed.
I’ve been just-about-to buy a used Ranger for the past few years, but there’s still a little life in my current car. Maybe next year, though…
posted by darkstar at 5:17 PM on August 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
I’ve been just-about-to buy a used Ranger for the past few years, but there’s still a little life in my current car. Maybe next year, though…
posted by darkstar at 5:17 PM on August 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
We've tried enforcement. Over and over and over again.
Not really, though. It's always with caveats. It's always been patchy at best, usually compromised from the get go (all speed cameras in the UK must be clearly signposted, for example - would be great if they weren't, especially with the use of mobile ones, so that you'd have to drive slow all the time to avoid a fine, because you don't know where the cameras are this week) and never really widespread. It's never been politically acceptable to go for drivers in the way that's required to do actual meaningful enforcement. There's all the little things that people just routinely do, and are rarely if ever pulled up on: not indicating correctly, going slightly over the limit, speeding up to go through intersections on an amber, etc, etc. There's never been actual, meaningful, consistent enforcement of traffic laws basically anywhere in the world as far as I can tell.
posted by Dysk at 5:38 PM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
Not really, though. It's always with caveats. It's always been patchy at best, usually compromised from the get go (all speed cameras in the UK must be clearly signposted, for example - would be great if they weren't, especially with the use of mobile ones, so that you'd have to drive slow all the time to avoid a fine, because you don't know where the cameras are this week) and never really widespread. It's never been politically acceptable to go for drivers in the way that's required to do actual meaningful enforcement. There's all the little things that people just routinely do, and are rarely if ever pulled up on: not indicating correctly, going slightly over the limit, speeding up to go through intersections on an amber, etc, etc. There's never been actual, meaningful, consistent enforcement of traffic laws basically anywhere in the world as far as I can tell.
posted by Dysk at 5:38 PM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
You're the guy in the ads they use to sell tank-sized vehicles to all the suburbanites.
Who just use them for office commuted and grocery runs.
Well, they need all-terrain vehicles for all the terrains they face: asphalt, concrete, bituminous, etc.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:51 PM on August 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
Who just use them for office commuted and grocery runs.
Well, they need all-terrain vehicles for all the terrains they face: asphalt, concrete, bituminous, etc.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:51 PM on August 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
In Toronto the city has given each ward 2 speed cameras to use as the local councilor thinks is appropriate.
Down the road in Hamilton, the news stories on recent return of photo radar were greeted with an avalanche of comments from very butch types on how this is an absolute cash grab and these things should be destroyed by any citizen with a conscience.
If only there were a way to avoid being ticketed! It's a real chinstroker, that one.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:55 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
Down the road in Hamilton, the news stories on recent return of photo radar were greeted with an avalanche of comments from very butch types on how this is an absolute cash grab and these things should be destroyed by any citizen with a conscience.
If only there were a way to avoid being ticketed! It's a real chinstroker, that one.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:55 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
The problems with speed cameras have mainly been a. it's another increase in the surveillance state and b. there's almost no way to contest the damn things, and they could just fine you at will.
I would happily give up one of our two cars if there was another way to get to work and back. Republicans don't want that and they run my state, so here we are.
posted by emjaybee at 6:08 PM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
I would happily give up one of our two cars if there was another way to get to work and back. Republicans don't want that and they run my state, so here we are.
posted by emjaybee at 6:08 PM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
Please Subaru, don’t cock up the new electric platform you are releasing for 2022. The naming of the first model in the lineup (Solterra) is pretty uninspiring - and I haven’t seen a photo other than the vague shape in darkness version they have on their website - but maybe if I squint hard enough it could be a fraction larger than a Crosstrek while much smaller than an Outback - which could be neat.
I really hope they heavily favor gear capacity, general outdoorsy-ness, and battery range in extreme temperatures (especially cold), over speed and high end performance. You can keep your 0-60 numbers and Tesla insane modes - I’m more impressed by the increased roof rail weight capacity on the Outback Wilderness edition. Give me some of that in a smaller package AWD electric car, and keep battery efficiency loss reasonable when it gets down below 20f, and I’ll consider not driving my Outback until the heat death of the universe (my kids will instead…)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 6:23 PM on August 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
I really hope they heavily favor gear capacity, general outdoorsy-ness, and battery range in extreme temperatures (especially cold), over speed and high end performance. You can keep your 0-60 numbers and Tesla insane modes - I’m more impressed by the increased roof rail weight capacity on the Outback Wilderness edition. Give me some of that in a smaller package AWD electric car, and keep battery efficiency loss reasonable when it gets down below 20f, and I’ll consider not driving my Outback until the heat death of the universe (my kids will instead…)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 6:23 PM on August 9, 2021 [5 favorites]
A while back when the last Mad Max movie was in theaters, I was in a tire place, and all of the rims for sale had sorta Mad Max names.
posted by Oyéah at 7:14 PM on August 9, 2021
posted by Oyéah at 7:14 PM on August 9, 2021
Sorry you've had such a bad time with your Honda, The_Vegetables.
The Pacifica I have (or its cousin, the Voyager) comes standard with 2nd and 3rd row seats that fold into the floor, so putting the right-hand seats down gave us all the room we needed (the rear 3-person bench folds ~70/30, so we still had five seats). It's not small by any means, but when I was parking in a very constrained ramp in Chicago a couple of weeks ago, it fit in a normal space without overhanging. Every asshole who ignored the signs that large/oversized vehicles were not allowed in the ramp--meaning everyone with an Escalade, King Cab trucks, etc.) stuck out so far into the driving lane that passengers were getting out to help drivers around the parked tanks.
Our trailer hitch was an option available on all trim levels, and the roof rack is standard on all trims.
Also, the hood line is very low, and all-around visibility is very good.
Gas mileage isn't great, but it's better than any V-8 powered monster truck, but about 50% of the time, it has 4-5 adults and a couple of dogs in it, which won't fit in the smaller car I drive.
Is it a Prius? No, but it's definitely better than the typical urban tank that was being described in the thread.
posted by Ickster at 7:22 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
The Pacifica I have (or its cousin, the Voyager) comes standard with 2nd and 3rd row seats that fold into the floor, so putting the right-hand seats down gave us all the room we needed (the rear 3-person bench folds ~70/30, so we still had five seats). It's not small by any means, but when I was parking in a very constrained ramp in Chicago a couple of weeks ago, it fit in a normal space without overhanging. Every asshole who ignored the signs that large/oversized vehicles were not allowed in the ramp--meaning everyone with an Escalade, King Cab trucks, etc.) stuck out so far into the driving lane that passengers were getting out to help drivers around the parked tanks.
Our trailer hitch was an option available on all trim levels, and the roof rack is standard on all trims.
Also, the hood line is very low, and all-around visibility is very good.
Gas mileage isn't great, but it's better than any V-8 powered monster truck, but about 50% of the time, it has 4-5 adults and a couple of dogs in it, which won't fit in the smaller car I drive.
Is it a Prius? No, but it's definitely better than the typical urban tank that was being described in the thread.
posted by Ickster at 7:22 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
Minivans are part of the same problem pickups are.
Vehicles across the board have gotten rediculously huge but the Honda minivan still gets 20% better gas mileage (and a corresponding 20% reduction in CO2 emissions); has about 20% more interior volume; and has a much less pedestrian hazardous grill than the Tahoe. And costs $18,000 less for the base model. You can buy a lot of after market rack/hitch for $18000 [like you could buy a Fit for all those single occupancy trips the average Tahoe will make and have change left over]. It's also 6" shorter both ways. Unless you need the additional 1500 lbs of towing capacity the choice should be a no brainer.
But marketing, specifically of the more power ar ar ar toxic masculinity variety, has people choosing the Tahoe.
posted by Mitheral at 7:34 PM on August 9, 2021 [12 favorites]
Vehicles across the board have gotten rediculously huge but the Honda minivan still gets 20% better gas mileage (and a corresponding 20% reduction in CO2 emissions); has about 20% more interior volume; and has a much less pedestrian hazardous grill than the Tahoe. And costs $18,000 less for the base model. You can buy a lot of after market rack/hitch for $18000 [like you could buy a Fit for all those single occupancy trips the average Tahoe will make and have change left over]. It's also 6" shorter both ways. Unless you need the additional 1500 lbs of towing capacity the choice should be a no brainer.
But marketing, specifically of the more power ar ar ar toxic masculinity variety, has people choosing the Tahoe.
posted by Mitheral at 7:34 PM on August 9, 2021 [12 favorites]
It's never been politically acceptable to go for drivers in the way that's required to do actual meaningful enforcement
There are places in the US where there is in fact a constant heavy police presence and it basically never happens that you can make a journey of any significant distance without seeing someone getting a ticket, yet people still drive at the speed that feels comfortable to them for the road, not the speed limit. Drivers just treat it as a reverse lottery.
TBH, I'd much rather drivers spend more time looking outside the car where they can see hazards than staring at their speedometer to maintain the speed limit.
As far as why SUVs and trucks sell, it's less about bro-specific marketing and more about having a better view of the road and the perception of increased safety than anything else. As SUVs have gotten so common as to be the "boring" option everybody goes for, trucks have increased in popularity. It doesn't hurt that they're taller than even most large SUVs these days.
There are trucks where the jacked up height makes some amount of sense. The Raptor, for example, couldn't have its long travel suspension if it were shorter. The regular F150, on the other hand, has become ridiculously oversized and there's not even any particular reason for it. Just people competing to feel like the king of the road as if it's some kind of competition.
Back when I drove in a congested city a lot, my preference was something like a (modern) Golf. Small enough to fit into traffic, enough horsepower to not be dangerous on short onramps, highly maneuverable, and large enough to carry a decent load of stuff.
posted by wierdo at 7:55 PM on August 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
There are places in the US where there is in fact a constant heavy police presence and it basically never happens that you can make a journey of any significant distance without seeing someone getting a ticket, yet people still drive at the speed that feels comfortable to them for the road, not the speed limit. Drivers just treat it as a reverse lottery.
TBH, I'd much rather drivers spend more time looking outside the car where they can see hazards than staring at their speedometer to maintain the speed limit.
As far as why SUVs and trucks sell, it's less about bro-specific marketing and more about having a better view of the road and the perception of increased safety than anything else. As SUVs have gotten so common as to be the "boring" option everybody goes for, trucks have increased in popularity. It doesn't hurt that they're taller than even most large SUVs these days.
There are trucks where the jacked up height makes some amount of sense. The Raptor, for example, couldn't have its long travel suspension if it were shorter. The regular F150, on the other hand, has become ridiculously oversized and there's not even any particular reason for it. Just people competing to feel like the king of the road as if it's some kind of competition.
Back when I drove in a congested city a lot, my preference was something like a (modern) Golf. Small enough to fit into traffic, enough horsepower to not be dangerous on short onramps, highly maneuverable, and large enough to carry a decent load of stuff.
posted by wierdo at 7:55 PM on August 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm of the opinion that unless you want a police state, enforcement is only useful if you've got less than 1% non-compliance, education for less than 5% non-compliance and design for anything worse. Governors on engines, road diets, speed bumps, chicanes, bollards, speed radar signs, etc...
And tho the speed limit may show 30mph, many suburban streets are designed for smooth traffic flow and therefore higher speeds, with left turn lanes, divided roads, etc. So of course people break the speed limit. If we want to discourage fast aggressive driving, let's install more slow streets and put more roads on a diet too.
Don't I know it. I sometimes ride my bicycle in a vehicle lane on a 40MPH street that people drive 55MPH plus on. It's one of the only ways to a neighboring town. I'm forced to take the lane because there is not enough space for cars to pass and stay in the lane. In seven years of bike advocacy in my town I've never successfully gotten a road diet. Meanwhile, reductions in speed limits for cyclists or better cyclist/pedestrian timing at traffic lights have been fought on CEQA environmental grounds! If we had a poll about how many fatalities the community would put up with to avoid a single minute of slowdown at rush hour I think it'd average one per month. I'm a little cynical on the subject. Still, I'm going to keep trying and keep biking.
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:20 PM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
And tho the speed limit may show 30mph, many suburban streets are designed for smooth traffic flow and therefore higher speeds, with left turn lanes, divided roads, etc. So of course people break the speed limit. If we want to discourage fast aggressive driving, let's install more slow streets and put more roads on a diet too.
Don't I know it. I sometimes ride my bicycle in a vehicle lane on a 40MPH street that people drive 55MPH plus on. It's one of the only ways to a neighboring town. I'm forced to take the lane because there is not enough space for cars to pass and stay in the lane. In seven years of bike advocacy in my town I've never successfully gotten a road diet. Meanwhile, reductions in speed limits for cyclists or better cyclist/pedestrian timing at traffic lights have been fought on CEQA environmental grounds! If we had a poll about how many fatalities the community would put up with to avoid a single minute of slowdown at rush hour I think it'd average one per month. I'm a little cynical on the subject. Still, I'm going to keep trying and keep biking.
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:20 PM on August 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
As far as trucks go, yes there's rural blindness. I'm guilty of it myself at times. But I think there's almost zero reason for trucks to be the size they are, we're just locked into oversized vehicles in part because of the chicken tax (dumb policy), and because of the over 6000lb bonus depreciation rules (even dumber policy). I'd like to see 6000+ lb vehicles restricted to commercial drivers only. In an ideal world we'd still mostly have the kind of light pickups Toyota used to sell here before the combo of the chicken tax and other factors made it less viable. We should also have about 2-3 times the tax on gasoline to cover both roadway infrastructure costs as well as externalities of particulate and CO2 pollution. Instead we're slowly killing our society in dumb, fiscally irresponsible ways.
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:29 PM on August 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:29 PM on August 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
I am surprised at the apparent lack of any regulation (that a simple soul like me in but one State knows of) regarding functioning of lights, angle of lights, lack of any limit on the lumens of vehicle lights, and even specific 'dusk til dawn' lights on requirement . Both with truck and regular vehicles.
The trend around here is for trucks to be fitted out with fold-out LED panels. Driving along a quiet rural road and wondering why something appearing to be a football field is coming toward you out of the dark due to the sheer number of lights can be disturbing as well as blinding you should they not shut them off in time (or at all).
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 9:04 PM on August 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
The trend around here is for trucks to be fitted out with fold-out LED panels. Driving along a quiet rural road and wondering why something appearing to be a football field is coming toward you out of the dark due to the sheer number of lights can be disturbing as well as blinding you should they not shut them off in time (or at all).
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 9:04 PM on August 9, 2021 [6 favorites]
You even have to buy a really expensive one before it even comes with a trailer hitch or roof racks, so I don't know how you got people and surfboards in there comfortably.
My Honda minivan is the base model, and I got it with a roof rack and towing package. We pretty well only use it for road trips, camping, hauling big items or towing things, the rest of the time it sits in the driveway except for the rare time we need a second car. We hate driving the van in the city because it is too damn big and terribly inefficient. So we end up driving our clapped-out beater 18-year old VW Golf most of the time in the city instead. I'm a bit worried about the car, it is really on its last legs and needs replacing soon, and there are so few city cars for sale anymore, just lots and lots of stupid SUVS and giant trucks.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:30 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
My Honda minivan is the base model, and I got it with a roof rack and towing package. We pretty well only use it for road trips, camping, hauling big items or towing things, the rest of the time it sits in the driveway except for the rare time we need a second car. We hate driving the van in the city because it is too damn big and terribly inefficient. So we end up driving our clapped-out beater 18-year old VW Golf most of the time in the city instead. I'm a bit worried about the car, it is really on its last legs and needs replacing soon, and there are so few city cars for sale anymore, just lots and lots of stupid SUVS and giant trucks.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:30 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
The first time Ontario had speed cameras I was driving an old 1973 VW beetle. I fucking loved speed cameras, because suddenly it was so much safer to drive that slow little car on the highways as the average speed went way down. I noticed the change pretty quickly when they cancelled them. Bring on the speed cameras!
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:33 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:33 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
from italy: A possible vision for the future of the American pickup truck
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:57 PM on August 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:57 PM on August 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Nate Powell has a terrific strip about this: About Face.
I also recommend Woodrow Phoenix's book Rumble Strip (UK title) / Crash Course (US title) which you can read about here.
posted by Paul Slade at 11:30 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
I also recommend Woodrow Phoenix's book Rumble Strip (UK title) / Crash Course (US title) which you can read about here.
posted by Paul Slade at 11:30 PM on August 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
With regards to rural blindness: in the 90s, my family would go to my parent's family home in Sweden, and spend a couple months living in a tiny village a ways down a one-lane dirt road. Our neighbor was a farmer, who cultivated a number of fields and had maybe fifty or a hundred cows. His daily driver was a Volvo station wagon. If he was moving larger or more unwieldy items, he'd hook up a trailer to it. If he was moving hay bales or heavy equipment, he'd drive a tractor, with a much larger trailer. Either way, I suspect he had more capacity than any typical pickup, and when he wasn't hauling he had a perfectly practical car. Maybe he couldn't tear down the dirt road quite as fast, but those of us who were walking appreciated that.
I don't think he needed a giant truck.
posted by alexei at 12:35 AM on August 10, 2021 [15 favorites]
I don't think he needed a giant truck.
posted by alexei at 12:35 AM on August 10, 2021 [15 favorites]
There are places in the US where there is in fact a constant heavy police presence and it basically never happens that you can make a journey of any significant distance without seeing someone getting a ticket, yet people still drive at the speed that feels comfortable to them for the road, not the speed limit. Drivers just treat it as a reverse lottery.
A "reverse lottery" is still patchy, not consistent enforcement. Consistent would be ticketing all of them.
posted by Dysk at 2:01 AM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
A "reverse lottery" is still patchy, not consistent enforcement. Consistent would be ticketing all of them.
posted by Dysk at 2:01 AM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
(And I do not understand the "surveillance state" objections to speed cameras. They only trigger on speeding objects. If you aren't breaking the law, you won't even be observed. This is the one type of camera or monitoring where the argument that if you're innocent you have nothing to fear, because if you're innocent you're not even being observed!)
posted by Dysk at 2:03 AM on August 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 2:03 AM on August 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
You're assuming that the cops and local governments that employ them are honest, and that speed cameras are honest attempts at enforcing a speed limit and not just fundraising. Which, conceivably, might even be true in the UK or Scandinavia.
But inevitably you're talking in a place full of Americans. Where cops aren't honest, local governments are commonly dishonest, and it makes sense to ask: What laws of physics prevent cops and local governments from setting them to photograph everyone going faster than five under the speed limit and then issuing tickets to all the Black people or all the people with nonlocal license plates?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:27 AM on August 10, 2021 [14 favorites]
But inevitably you're talking in a place full of Americans. Where cops aren't honest, local governments are commonly dishonest, and it makes sense to ask: What laws of physics prevent cops and local governments from setting them to photograph everyone going faster than five under the speed limit and then issuing tickets to all the Black people or all the people with nonlocal license plates?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:27 AM on August 10, 2021 [14 favorites]
Fair.
posted by Dysk at 4:08 AM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 4:08 AM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
But inevitably you're talking in a place full of Americans. Where cops aren't honest, local governments are commonly dishonest, and it makes sense to ask: What laws of physics prevent cops and local governments from setting them to photograph everyone going faster than five under the speed limit and then issuing tickets to all the Black people or all the people with nonlocal license plates?No law of physics prevents this but that’s because that’s the wrong field: the problem with traffic stops is that there’s no way to read a patrol officer’s mind but what you’re talking about is an actual policy involving far more data, routine clerical work, often an outside vendor, and which can be easily audited. The odds of a conspiracy leaking go up with the number of people involved and it’s implausible that, say, all of the clerks processing that constant stream of tickets would keep perfect silence about the “cancel the ones for white people” policy. Inevitably the reverse is what happens with ticket volumes becoming more equitable because you don’t have officers’ judgement controlling who gets off with a warning.
The better problem to keep concerned about is where the cameras are placed, especially if existing ticket volume which does reflect racism is used to suggest placements. The best solution for this is more cameras providing broad coverage around the city so there aren’t effectively uncovered neighborhoods.
posted by adamsc at 4:52 AM on August 10, 2021
Even if speed cameras are operated in good faith (which we have ample evidence against from red light and toll cameras), the chance of them being maintained well enough to maintain accuracy in gauging speed over any significant length of time is approximately zero. Cops already routinely ignore the training and calibration requirements for the speed measuring equipment they use now. That's how law firms like The Ticket Clinic stay in business doing nothing but traffic tickets at $100 a pop.
With red light cameras, several cities near me were caught red handed engaging in fuckery. First, they cut down the yellow light time, usually well below what regulation requires. Then when they got stacks of violations to process and sign off on, the cops didn't bother to do the required review, they just signed them and mailed them off without even looking. This was noticed due to obvious ALPR errors making it through review approximately 100% of the time. That doesn't even get into the literal bribery involved in getting the systems adopted in many, many, many municipalities.
There are towns and cities that have proven willing to do what they can to generate as much revenue as possible from fines for speeding to the point they get a reputation, yet still the money flows in. There are municipalities for whom traffic fines make up over 90% of their budget year after year. In many cases in fairly isolated areas where most people already know the town's reputation and it's not just a neverending parade of ignorant out of towners.
If it weren't for that, I might be able to believe that the problem can be solved with enforcement. Given that evidence, I'm pretty convinced that we have to help people do the right thing if we want to make progress in reducing harms to other road users from cars, not double down on punishment yet again.
posted by wierdo at 5:10 AM on August 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
With red light cameras, several cities near me were caught red handed engaging in fuckery. First, they cut down the yellow light time, usually well below what regulation requires. Then when they got stacks of violations to process and sign off on, the cops didn't bother to do the required review, they just signed them and mailed them off without even looking. This was noticed due to obvious ALPR errors making it through review approximately 100% of the time. That doesn't even get into the literal bribery involved in getting the systems adopted in many, many, many municipalities.
There are towns and cities that have proven willing to do what they can to generate as much revenue as possible from fines for speeding to the point they get a reputation, yet still the money flows in. There are municipalities for whom traffic fines make up over 90% of their budget year after year. In many cases in fairly isolated areas where most people already know the town's reputation and it's not just a neverending parade of ignorant out of towners.
If it weren't for that, I might be able to believe that the problem can be solved with enforcement. Given that evidence, I'm pretty convinced that we have to help people do the right thing if we want to make progress in reducing harms to other road users from cars, not double down on punishment yet again.
posted by wierdo at 5:10 AM on August 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
In our last conversation on the topic, I mentioned a huge pickup that is parked on the street in my urban neighborhood. I recently got a picture of it, ironically parked behind and towering over an older and much more functional looking truck in matching red. The top of the front hood on the lifted truck is at the same height as the roof of the normal one. I don't care what your job is -- this truck does not belong in a city. And by the way, I see it every morning when I'm walking the dog and it has never been anything but pristine.
Recently a 9 year old child riding his bike in a crosswalk was run over and killed by someone driving a decked-out, blacked-out pickup truck. The driver ran a stop sign at a four-way stop (a MAJOR issue in the residential parts of Chicago). One reason enforcement will probably never be the answer to these issues? The driver was an off-duty cop. Unless you create a separate, non-police enforcement mechanism, you're talking about using a group of people who have a strong bias toward drivers because most of their job is done in a car and therefore have a windshield perspective being the ones to protect cyclists and pedestrians? LOL. Heck, one of the biggest killers of on duty police isn't gun violence, it's traffic collisions; they won't even drive safely themselves.
posted by misskaz at 7:10 AM on August 10, 2021 [17 favorites]
Recently a 9 year old child riding his bike in a crosswalk was run over and killed by someone driving a decked-out, blacked-out pickup truck. The driver ran a stop sign at a four-way stop (a MAJOR issue in the residential parts of Chicago). One reason enforcement will probably never be the answer to these issues? The driver was an off-duty cop. Unless you create a separate, non-police enforcement mechanism, you're talking about using a group of people who have a strong bias toward drivers because most of their job is done in a car and therefore have a windshield perspective being the ones to protect cyclists and pedestrians? LOL. Heck, one of the biggest killers of on duty police isn't gun violence, it's traffic collisions; they won't even drive safely themselves.
posted by misskaz at 7:10 AM on August 10, 2021 [17 favorites]
Apologies for not being able to link directly to the truck picture; Twitter apparently now redirects image URLs to the full tweet (or in this case thread). If you scroll just a few tweets down you will see the photo I'm referencing.
posted by misskaz at 7:16 AM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by misskaz at 7:16 AM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
It's still a long way out, but one of my hopes for self-driving cars is that they would be forced to stay within the speed limits.
In the short term, the traffic calming/pro-pedestrian measures the city has been taking on streets near me have been working well, with cars noticeably slowing down. It's just simple things like narrowing up intersections and traffic lanes, better paint and plastic cone things to protect the bike lanes, etc., but it gives a hint of how much better things could be if access for all road users (not just cars) was key to street design.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:30 AM on August 10, 2021
In the short term, the traffic calming/pro-pedestrian measures the city has been taking on streets near me have been working well, with cars noticeably slowing down. It's just simple things like narrowing up intersections and traffic lanes, better paint and plastic cone things to protect the bike lanes, etc., but it gives a hint of how much better things could be if access for all road users (not just cars) was key to street design.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:30 AM on August 10, 2021
Even if speed cameras are operated in good faith (which we have ample evidence against from red light and toll cameras), the chance of them being maintained well enough to maintain accuracy in gauging speed over any significant length of time is approximately zero.
Works in my country. Are you saying radar works differently in the US?
posted by ambrosen at 7:46 AM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Works in my country. Are you saying radar works differently in the US?
posted by ambrosen at 7:46 AM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
I love how everything has been rebuilt over the past 20 years to accommodate the supersized, Nimitz-class vehicles everyone owns these days. Go to an automatic car wash in a small car and you'll get to watch as the sprayers wash the ground in front and behind you. And the keypads for drive-through anything is now above the roof line of my car.
Anyone who says that people actually "need" these monstrosities is full of it. My grandfather somehow managed his farm with a Model A converted into a pickup.
posted by drstrangelove at 8:21 AM on August 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
Anyone who says that people actually "need" these monstrosities is full of it. My grandfather somehow managed his farm with a Model A converted into a pickup.
posted by drstrangelove at 8:21 AM on August 10, 2021 [8 favorites]
Works in my country. Are you saying radar works differently in the US?
No but street design is dramatically different in the US compared to most countries, and plenty of city streets are designed for 50-90mph speeds, even if the speed limit is 25-40 mph.
So the outcome of stepped up or video enforcement would be that everyone gets ticketed, gets angry, and they vote in libertarians who take out the enforcement and go back to the status quo of everyone speeding. That's why street design has to change first, so that the only ones caught speeding are actual delinquents who would speed through a parade, and then speed camera or stepped up enforcement would work.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:29 AM on August 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
No but street design is dramatically different in the US compared to most countries, and plenty of city streets are designed for 50-90mph speeds, even if the speed limit is 25-40 mph.
So the outcome of stepped up or video enforcement would be that everyone gets ticketed, gets angry, and they vote in libertarians who take out the enforcement and go back to the status quo of everyone speeding. That's why street design has to change first, so that the only ones caught speeding are actual delinquents who would speed through a parade, and then speed camera or stepped up enforcement would work.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:29 AM on August 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
A 25mph street has to be designed and has to look differently than one meant for speedy travel.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:31 AM on August 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:31 AM on August 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
Are you saying radar works differently in the US?
Radar works the same, but local government and law enforcement almost certainly are different.
posted by TedW at 9:46 AM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Radar works the same, but local government and law enforcement almost certainly are different.
posted by TedW at 9:46 AM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
It's just simple things like narrowing up intersections and traffic lanes
I lived somewhere where they were doing this a bunch by putting bulb-outs so the pedestrians didn't have such a long way to cross the street (which is good) but they weren't putting in a way for people on bikes to get through the bulb-outs. They finally started putting bike lanes in on that road (the direct route) so you didn't have to bike in the car lane and get honked at, bike on the sidewalk (which is dangerous because of people pulling out of driveways and also not very nice for people walking) or take a zigzag route that was twice the distance, and then they started putting these bulb-outs in. So the bike lane just sort of ends every time you hit an intersection, and you have to stop to merge with car traffic (which is bad).
I didn't like them doing the ped-friendly infrastructure at the expense of bike infrastructure. It would have been so easy to do both.
Bike/ped infrastructure should be designed and implemented by people with solid experience actually biking and walking.
posted by aniola at 10:31 AM on August 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
I lived somewhere where they were doing this a bunch by putting bulb-outs so the pedestrians didn't have such a long way to cross the street (which is good) but they weren't putting in a way for people on bikes to get through the bulb-outs. They finally started putting bike lanes in on that road (the direct route) so you didn't have to bike in the car lane and get honked at, bike on the sidewalk (which is dangerous because of people pulling out of driveways and also not very nice for people walking) or take a zigzag route that was twice the distance, and then they started putting these bulb-outs in. So the bike lane just sort of ends every time you hit an intersection, and you have to stop to merge with car traffic (which is bad).
I didn't like them doing the ped-friendly infrastructure at the expense of bike infrastructure. It would have been so easy to do both.
Bike/ped infrastructure should be designed and implemented by people with solid experience actually biking and walking.
posted by aniola at 10:31 AM on August 10, 2021 [4 favorites]
There's probably a corollary for cars and trucks and who should be making and selling them and who shouldn't.
posted by aniola at 10:32 AM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by aniola at 10:32 AM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
In Japan they have these small pickup trucks, kei trucks, which would probably be enough for most work uses anywhere. They're compact, seat two, and have a decent sized bed. I'm sure they'd be the butt of all kinds of jokes if they were on the roads here in Canada but that's just fashion and insecurity getting in the way of practicality.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:35 AM on August 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:35 AM on August 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
And I do not understand the "surveillance state" objections to speed cameras. They only trigger on speeding objects. If you aren't breaking the law, you won't even be observed.
The commenters in news stories I mention earlier declare that the calibration is off, or is hypersensitive or something. Speed limit is 50kph? The photo radar will go off at 48, or 50.0001 kph. How do they know this? They all have exquisitely tuned driving machines which themselves have hyperaccurate speedometers. Well, I tell a lie, as not everyone drives a perfect car: several of these drivers are blessed with considerable acuity of senses and can judge their vehicles’ speed with more accuracy than either the car’s own speedometer or the photo radar. A useful skill.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:40 AM on August 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
The commenters in news stories I mention earlier declare that the calibration is off, or is hypersensitive or something. Speed limit is 50kph? The photo radar will go off at 48, or 50.0001 kph. How do they know this? They all have exquisitely tuned driving machines which themselves have hyperaccurate speedometers. Well, I tell a lie, as not everyone drives a perfect car: several of these drivers are blessed with considerable acuity of senses and can judge their vehicles’ speed with more accuracy than either the car’s own speedometer or the photo radar. A useful skill.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:40 AM on August 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
I lived somewhere where they were doing this a bunch by putting bulb-outs so the pedestrians didn't have such a long way to cross the street (which is good) but they weren't putting in a way for people on bikes to get through the bulb-outs.
I've seen that a lot of times, and it is frustrating. The newest ones near me have been designed much better, with bicycle access considered. It's still really just an interim step that gets you slightly closer to an equitable situation without actually making things equitable, but at least it isn't just simplistically trading bicycle vs pedestrian access.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:20 AM on August 10, 2021
I've seen that a lot of times, and it is frustrating. The newest ones near me have been designed much better, with bicycle access considered. It's still really just an interim step that gets you slightly closer to an equitable situation without actually making things equitable, but at least it isn't just simplistically trading bicycle vs pedestrian access.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:20 AM on August 10, 2021
There are, maybe obviously, better ways. See for example Nanaimo, BC's move to raised crosswalk/bike lanes at all intersections (which also solves many of the myriad problems with curb cuts at pedestrian crossings). This is very much a car second approach to intersections and I hope it becomes the standard here in BC and elsewhere.
I am surprised at the apparent lack of any regulation (that a simple soul like me in but one State knows of) regarding functioning of lights, angle of lights, lack of any limit on the lumens of vehicle lights, and even specific 'dusk til dawn' lights on requirement . Both with truck and regular vehicles.
Regulations abound for practically any light you might consider attaching to your vehicle (this is why so many are marked Off Road Use Only). Also bumper heights, required mud flaps, and in a catchall way protuberances. There is very little enforcement though.
posted by Mitheral at 11:40 AM on August 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
I am surprised at the apparent lack of any regulation (that a simple soul like me in but one State knows of) regarding functioning of lights, angle of lights, lack of any limit on the lumens of vehicle lights, and even specific 'dusk til dawn' lights on requirement . Both with truck and regular vehicles.
Regulations abound for practically any light you might consider attaching to your vehicle (this is why so many are marked Off Road Use Only). Also bumper heights, required mud flaps, and in a catchall way protuberances. There is very little enforcement though.
posted by Mitheral at 11:40 AM on August 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
I haven't gotten through all the comments, so the conversation may have moved on, but...
I’m also a truck-needing farm person. And while yes, I have hauled lumber, chicken crates (full of chickens), a few bails of hay, etc. in my Honda CRV (poor thing never asked for this, lol), I can’t haul a round bail, or tow a chicken tractor, trailer, or hay wagon with it. So yeah, need a truck.
But what I don't need is one of these manslaughter monstrosities. When our circa 2003 GMC’s frame finally failed, our boss got a 2014 basic Chevy work truck. Nothing special.
Can I tell you the bonkers difference? The new truck is MUCH bigger and more lifted. I am a 5’8” person and I have an almost impossible time lifting heavy things into the new truck’s bed, and have to practically leap to into the cab. So, even if the huge new truck isn’t BroDozer-ed out, it’s still impeding my ability to do my job!
These things, if you’re actually using them for work-work, are built for the assumed (and from the advertising, "aspirational," ugh) stereotype of the 6’4” 240 Cis Manly Man Manny Man Man—and a lot of farmers are not that, regardless of gender. As is a lot of equipment, but don’t get me started.
That said, maybe I’ll put TruckNutz on my Honda. For the goofs.
posted by functionequalsform at 11:47 AM on August 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
I’m also a truck-needing farm person. And while yes, I have hauled lumber, chicken crates (full of chickens), a few bails of hay, etc. in my Honda CRV (poor thing never asked for this, lol), I can’t haul a round bail, or tow a chicken tractor, trailer, or hay wagon with it. So yeah, need a truck.
But what I don't need is one of these manslaughter monstrosities. When our circa 2003 GMC’s frame finally failed, our boss got a 2014 basic Chevy work truck. Nothing special.
Can I tell you the bonkers difference? The new truck is MUCH bigger and more lifted. I am a 5’8” person and I have an almost impossible time lifting heavy things into the new truck’s bed, and have to practically leap to into the cab. So, even if the huge new truck isn’t BroDozer-ed out, it’s still impeding my ability to do my job!
These things, if you’re actually using them for work-work, are built for the assumed (and from the advertising, "aspirational," ugh) stereotype of the 6’4” 240 Cis Manly Man Manny Man Man—and a lot of farmers are not that, regardless of gender. As is a lot of equipment, but don’t get me started.
That said, maybe I’ll put TruckNutz on my Honda. For the goofs.
posted by functionequalsform at 11:47 AM on August 10, 2021 [10 favorites]
I think I've only actually noticed TruckNutz under bike seats.
posted by aniola at 12:02 PM on August 10, 2021
posted by aniola at 12:02 PM on August 10, 2021
Works in my country. Are you saying radar works differently in the US?
Any radio transmitter housed somewhere without climate control will become detuned with changes in temperature, humidity, and such. The circuitry can only compensate so much. As someone who sells goods based on weight or volume must have their metering devices periodically tested and recalibrated, so too must the police with their speed measuring devices.
They already blow off the required testing with the ones in their car where it consists of measuring a tuning fork and logging the result, so perhaps you'll excuse me if I have a hard time believing they'll do any better with speed cameras.
posted by wierdo at 12:34 PM on August 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
Any radio transmitter housed somewhere without climate control will become detuned with changes in temperature, humidity, and such. The circuitry can only compensate so much. As someone who sells goods based on weight or volume must have their metering devices periodically tested and recalibrated, so too must the police with their speed measuring devices.
They already blow off the required testing with the ones in their car where it consists of measuring a tuning fork and logging the result, so perhaps you'll excuse me if I have a hard time believing they'll do any better with speed cameras.
posted by wierdo at 12:34 PM on August 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
Can we talk about the Jeeps that have 3 jacks, a snorkel, and a giant ice axe painted in red attached to the back? What's that trend all about?
posted by jasondigitized at 1:40 PM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by jasondigitized at 1:40 PM on August 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Can we talk about the Jeeps that have 3 jacks, a snorkel, and a giant ice axe painted in red attached to the back? What's that trend all about?
That's a BroDozer :-/
Also, those who have the "angry eyes" on their Jeeps are mercilessly taunted by "real" (real?) off-road folks, and those who have Big Trucks but don't use them for work-work are mercilessly roasted by farm/construction/etc. folks. So.
(Not remotely glorifying the use of fossil fuels, least of all for purely recreational purposes.)
posted by functionequalsform at 2:09 PM on August 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
That's a BroDozer :-/
Also, those who have the "angry eyes" on their Jeeps are mercilessly taunted by "real" (real?) off-road folks, and those who have Big Trucks but don't use them for work-work are mercilessly roasted by farm/construction/etc. folks. So.
(Not remotely glorifying the use of fossil fuels, least of all for purely recreational purposes.)
posted by functionequalsform at 2:09 PM on August 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
Five minutes' worth of thought on the subject are enough to convince me that my modest proposal is not really a good idea, but still there's a teeny, tiny part of me that would love to -- purely for safety reasons I assure you -- pass a law mandating that any vehicle weighing more than 175% of the weight of an average sedan must be painted high-visibility pink and additionally covered with sparkly reflective material. Again, purely for visibility and safety, which everybody will surely agree are important, yes?
Anybody who really needs a vehicle capable of hauling lumber or gravel or hay bales or whatever can still do whatever is required in their neon pink glitter-mobile and everybody else can get with the program or choose to assert the public signifiers of their personal identity and sexuality via mediums that do not entail an elevated pedestrian body count.
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:46 PM on August 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
Anybody who really needs a vehicle capable of hauling lumber or gravel or hay bales or whatever can still do whatever is required in their neon pink glitter-mobile and everybody else can get with the program or choose to assert the public signifiers of their personal identity and sexuality via mediums that do not entail an elevated pedestrian body count.
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:46 PM on August 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
... not that any pedestrian body count greater than 0 is acceptable.
posted by aniola at 2:55 PM on August 10, 2021
posted by aniola at 2:55 PM on August 10, 2021
painted high-visibility pink and additionally covered with sparkly reflective material
If the actual tough guys wear pink, all the wannabe tough guys are going to be wearing pink. In a vacuum 90% of all tacticool gear looks dumb as hell -- it's just the association that makes it cool.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 3:15 PM on August 10, 2021
If the actual tough guys wear pink, all the wannabe tough guys are going to be wearing pink. In a vacuum 90% of all tacticool gear looks dumb as hell -- it's just the association that makes it cool.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 3:15 PM on August 10, 2021
Iirc road damage is proportional to vehicle weight to the fourth power, so there should be a road-repair license tax ditto.
posted by clew at 3:18 PM on August 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by clew at 3:18 PM on August 10, 2021 [5 favorites]
It's worth considering that rural business was conducted fine w/the pickup trucks available pre-2000, almost all of which were significantly smaller.
It's also worth considering that the aftermarket value for pre-2000 trucks is much, much healthier than it is for post-2000 trucks, because pre-2000 trucks are better as actual work vehicles: they have larger beds and are cheaper to operate and maintain. Go look at Autotrader and look at the dropoff in truck values once the 2000s start. It's literally a price cliff.
posted by mightygodking at 3:25 PM on August 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
It's also worth considering that the aftermarket value for pre-2000 trucks is much, much healthier than it is for post-2000 trucks, because pre-2000 trucks are better as actual work vehicles: they have larger beds and are cheaper to operate and maintain. Go look at Autotrader and look at the dropoff in truck values once the 2000s start. It's literally a price cliff.
posted by mightygodking at 3:25 PM on August 10, 2021 [6 favorites]
I try to drive as little as I possibly can - I bought my hatchback new in 2012 and it only has 32K on the clock. When I do drive or am even just walking around the neighborhood it seems like 75-80% of the vehicles on the road are SUVs. It's a huge pain in the ass while driving because SUVs and big pickups block my view of things around me and make me feel unsafe.
I have a really hard time wrapping my head around why someone would want to pay for the gas required to drive an SUV that they probably don't need (random stat from the Mercedes GLA 250 details page: 6.8 sec , 0-60 mph). (Moreso, why would you want to pay an extra $350 so that the Mercedes logo on your grille is illuminated?)
I like to go fast but I'm definitely not the target demographic for big vehicles. I'll let my six-speed shifter do that for me for a lot less money.
posted by bendy at 7:35 PM on August 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
I have a really hard time wrapping my head around why someone would want to pay for the gas required to drive an SUV that they probably don't need (random stat from the Mercedes GLA 250 details page: 6.8 sec , 0-60 mph). (Moreso, why would you want to pay an extra $350 so that the Mercedes logo on your grille is illuminated?)
I like to go fast but I'm definitely not the target demographic for big vehicles. I'll let my six-speed shifter do that for me for a lot less money.
posted by bendy at 7:35 PM on August 10, 2021 [3 favorites]
Back on topic: yes, I do stay within the speed limits on surface streets, 50% because I'm nearly a senior citizen and 50% because Portland, OR drivers either whip through stop signs or just sit there and wait for you to take their right-of-way which just leads both of you to hesitantly pull into the intersection and then stop and/or back up when the other person does the same.
In terms of speed limits, I once got a speeding ticket on my motorcycle for going 95 mph. I immediately realized that I was a dumbass and lucky I didn't kill myself and never did that again.
/old-lady-voice Why would anyone need that kind of power or ability to go so fast?
posted by bendy at 7:48 PM on August 10, 2021
In terms of speed limits, I once got a speeding ticket on my motorcycle for going 95 mph. I immediately realized that I was a dumbass and lucky I didn't kill myself and never did that again.
/old-lady-voice Why would anyone need that kind of power or ability to go so fast?
posted by bendy at 7:48 PM on August 10, 2021
I have a really hard time wrapping my head around why someone would want to pay for the gas required to drive an SUV that they probably don't need
Because buying a car in the US is extremely class-based, and how much car you can afford is a shortcut identifier of higher class. As a measure of that, most months, 3-5 of the top 10 vehicles purchased in the US that cost more than $50k are pickups. So you may think Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche, Tesla, BMW, Cadillac, etc as luxury vehicles, but every month a few of those brands are left behind for GM, Ford, Dodge, and so on pick ups.
Also, the engineering for sedans vs SUVs and pickups has gone extremely stale (above the difference in fuel consumption between a minivan and a fullsize SUV was 6" and 20% gas) which is honestly not significant compared to the purchase price differential.
To compare to a sedan, it's equally stale -not quite double for a vehicle with less than half as much potential capacity (even if as discussed in this thread, actual research shows that capacity tends to be rarely used over the lifetime of the vehicle).
Also of the top 20 most sold vehicles in the US, cars are only #6,#8, #13, and #20. Pickups and SUVs make up the rest.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:05 AM on August 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Because buying a car in the US is extremely class-based, and how much car you can afford is a shortcut identifier of higher class. As a measure of that, most months, 3-5 of the top 10 vehicles purchased in the US that cost more than $50k are pickups. So you may think Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche, Tesla, BMW, Cadillac, etc as luxury vehicles, but every month a few of those brands are left behind for GM, Ford, Dodge, and so on pick ups.
Also, the engineering for sedans vs SUVs and pickups has gone extremely stale (above the difference in fuel consumption between a minivan and a fullsize SUV was 6" and 20% gas) which is honestly not significant compared to the purchase price differential.
To compare to a sedan, it's equally stale -not quite double for a vehicle with less than half as much potential capacity (even if as discussed in this thread, actual research shows that capacity tends to be rarely used over the lifetime of the vehicle).
Also of the top 20 most sold vehicles in the US, cars are only #6,#8, #13, and #20. Pickups and SUVs make up the rest.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:05 AM on August 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
> I have a really hard time wrapping my head around why someone would want to pay for the gas required to drive an SUV that they probably don't need
Because buying a car in the US is extremely class-based, and how much car you can afford is a shortcut identifier of higher class.
Also it seems to be giving the SUV crowd something to blame Joe Biden for.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:26 AM on August 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Because buying a car in the US is extremely class-based, and how much car you can afford is a shortcut identifier of higher class.
Also it seems to be giving the SUV crowd something to blame Joe Biden for.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:26 AM on August 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Couple of relevant parts from here in the UK.
Here's an example of the kind of car adverts the ASA bans (avoid portraying or referring to practices that encourage or condone anti-social behaviour or unsafe or irresponsible driving/marketers must not make speed or acceleration claims the main message of their marketing communications).
There's detailed criteria about where fixed or mobile speed cameras can be used (Humberside FOIA example has a nice flow chart at the end). Sites have to have had a certain number of accidents where speed is a factor, be visible and signposted (for fixed cameras), the traffic needs to be demonstrated to be going fast, and there's generally a 10% + 2mph tolerance factor built in before you'd get a ticket.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:42 AM on August 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Here's an example of the kind of car adverts the ASA bans (avoid portraying or referring to practices that encourage or condone anti-social behaviour or unsafe or irresponsible driving/marketers must not make speed or acceleration claims the main message of their marketing communications).
There's detailed criteria about where fixed or mobile speed cameras can be used (Humberside FOIA example has a nice flow chart at the end). Sites have to have had a certain number of accidents where speed is a factor, be visible and signposted (for fixed cameras), the traffic needs to be demonstrated to be going fast, and there's generally a 10% + 2mph tolerance factor built in before you'd get a ticket.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:42 AM on August 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
i support a separate license for trucks and SUVs. I also support losing that license if you don't transport a group of kids to soccer practice or help someone move at least twice a year.
posted by dances with hamsters at 3:44 PM on August 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by dances with hamsters at 3:44 PM on August 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
> any vehicle weighing more than 175% of the weight of an average sedan must be painted high-visibility pink and additionally covered with sparkly reflective material
I know the joke is that the manly men driving these trucks don't want to be associated with anything pink and girly, but I still don't like "pink and girly" as another term for "humiliating."
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:12 PM on August 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
I know the joke is that the manly men driving these trucks don't want to be associated with anything pink and girly, but I still don't like "pink and girly" as another term for "humiliating."
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:12 PM on August 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
Yes! That's exactly what I couldn't articulate!
Also of the top 20 most sold vehicles in the US, cars are only #6,#8, #13, and #20. Pickups and SUVs make up the rest.
Dang.
Sites have to have had a certain number of accidents where speed is a factor
Let's wait until this site we know is going to be dangerous hurts someone.
posted by aniola at 6:32 PM on August 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Also of the top 20 most sold vehicles in the US, cars are only #6,#8, #13, and #20. Pickups and SUVs make up the rest.
Dang.
Sites have to have had a certain number of accidents where speed is a factor
Let's wait until this site we know is going to be dangerous hurts someone.
posted by aniola at 6:32 PM on August 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Because buying a car in the US is extremely class-based, and how much car you can afford is a shortcut identifier of higher class.
My disbelief is based on my rejection of the class system.
posted by bendy at 10:11 PM on August 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
My disbelief is based on my rejection of the class system.
posted by bendy at 10:11 PM on August 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Some random thoughts:
1. While walking down the street (on a quest for ice cream) my 4-year old son stopped in his tracks, pointed at a tricked-out Jeep and said, “Whoa, daddy, that’s cool!” He’s right. It was very cool. Alas, I can’t justify the expense (financial or environmental). My Subaru Legacy sedan will have to do.
2. My wife and I both enjoy driving small cars. She, however, insists on an SUV because she feels unsafe in a small car when seemingly everyone else is in a truck. It is something of an arms race that is hard to to escape.
3. All vehicles are larger in part because of safety regulations. Crumple zones and side-impact beams take up space. Sadly, occupant safety improvements have been somewhat at the expense of pedestrian safety.
4. Stroads are bad. We should design our environment to encourage voluntary compliance with speed limits instead of punitive automated speed cameras. Respect people and the lived environment.
5. My wife wants a larger SUV because the current one (2009 Toyota RAV4) bursts at the seams when we load it up for trips. I’d really like the next one to be a plug-in hybrid. Hopefully, we can both win.
6. Smaller, fuel-efficient trucks are making a comeback. 39mpg in the city? Easy to park? 1450lb capacity and 2000lb towing standard? Yes, please! Make the hybrid a plug-in with AWD and I’ll be first in line.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:33 PM on August 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
1. While walking down the street (on a quest for ice cream) my 4-year old son stopped in his tracks, pointed at a tricked-out Jeep and said, “Whoa, daddy, that’s cool!” He’s right. It was very cool. Alas, I can’t justify the expense (financial or environmental). My Subaru Legacy sedan will have to do.
2. My wife and I both enjoy driving small cars. She, however, insists on an SUV because she feels unsafe in a small car when seemingly everyone else is in a truck. It is something of an arms race that is hard to to escape.
3. All vehicles are larger in part because of safety regulations. Crumple zones and side-impact beams take up space. Sadly, occupant safety improvements have been somewhat at the expense of pedestrian safety.
4. Stroads are bad. We should design our environment to encourage voluntary compliance with speed limits instead of punitive automated speed cameras. Respect people and the lived environment.
5. My wife wants a larger SUV because the current one (2009 Toyota RAV4) bursts at the seams when we load it up for trips. I’d really like the next one to be a plug-in hybrid. Hopefully, we can both win.
6. Smaller, fuel-efficient trucks are making a comeback. 39mpg in the city? Easy to park? 1450lb capacity and 2000lb towing standard? Yes, please! Make the hybrid a plug-in with AWD and I’ll be first in line.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:33 PM on August 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
3. All vehicles are larger in part because of safety regulations.
This is why eg a mark 6 Golf is bigger than a Mk 1 or 2. It does not explain SUVs or pickups being the size of minibuses. That's a whole different category of size class again.
posted by Dysk at 1:59 AM on August 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
This is why eg a mark 6 Golf is bigger than a Mk 1 or 2. It does not explain SUVs or pickups being the size of minibuses. That's a whole different category of size class again.
posted by Dysk at 1:59 AM on August 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
It does not explain SUVs or pickups being the size of minibuses.
Crash standards do partially explain the death of the compact pickup truck in the early 2000s. As crash standards got more stringent, it became harder and less economical for manufacturers to sell compact pickups (at lower prices than full size trucks), so they moved their compact trucks to the mid-size category and added full-size trucks to their lineup in the case of Toyota and Nissan. Ford famously dropped the compact Ford Ranger in 2006 because "consumers didn't want them any more". Of course, now that those reliable little workhorses are finally wearing out, they've introduced the Ford Maverick (with a hybrid engine, even). Very smart on Ford's part, if you ask me.
They are the size they are because pickup up trucks were originally designed to do specific jobs -- haul goods for farmers and tradespeople. Suburbanites buying trucks are coopting the image of being a "working man" when their needs probably don't reflect that reality. I will tell you that as a construction professional for the last 20+ years, I almost never needed a pickup because I was on the supervisory/management side. Our carpenters and laborers didn't need them because we always provided a truck (or a truck allowance) to our superintendents.
Out of curiosity, I looked up the dimensions of a 1989 Ford F-150 and compared them to a 2021 model. As you can see, they're very similar. The fact is, trucks haven't been getting bigger. I can go to any manufacturer and you will find they are all within a few inches and a few hundred pounds of the F-150 and that is the way it has always been.
But it is true that manufacturers have been selling more of them. In fact, the F-150 sells almost double the number of trucks now vs. in 1989. Trucks aren't getting bigger -- there are simply more of them and that is warping our perceptions of their size.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 12:31 PM on August 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
Crash standards do partially explain the death of the compact pickup truck in the early 2000s. As crash standards got more stringent, it became harder and less economical for manufacturers to sell compact pickups (at lower prices than full size trucks), so they moved their compact trucks to the mid-size category and added full-size trucks to their lineup in the case of Toyota and Nissan. Ford famously dropped the compact Ford Ranger in 2006 because "consumers didn't want them any more". Of course, now that those reliable little workhorses are finally wearing out, they've introduced the Ford Maverick (with a hybrid engine, even). Very smart on Ford's part, if you ask me.
They are the size they are because pickup up trucks were originally designed to do specific jobs -- haul goods for farmers and tradespeople. Suburbanites buying trucks are coopting the image of being a "working man" when their needs probably don't reflect that reality. I will tell you that as a construction professional for the last 20+ years, I almost never needed a pickup because I was on the supervisory/management side. Our carpenters and laborers didn't need them because we always provided a truck (or a truck allowance) to our superintendents.
Out of curiosity, I looked up the dimensions of a 1989 Ford F-150 and compared them to a 2021 model. As you can see, they're very similar. The fact is, trucks haven't been getting bigger. I can go to any manufacturer and you will find they are all within a few inches and a few hundred pounds of the F-150 and that is the way it has always been.
But it is true that manufacturers have been selling more of them. In fact, the F-150 sells almost double the number of trucks now vs. in 1989. Trucks aren't getting bigger -- there are simply more of them and that is warping our perceptions of their size.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 12:31 PM on August 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
I didn't want to buy a CUV but climate change means the roads are often flooded from the new climate, and keeping the engine block elevated saves a lot of money.
Remember, the roads are engineered as part of the drainage system....
posted by eustatic at 9:08 PM on August 12, 2021
Remember, the roads are engineered as part of the drainage system....
posted by eustatic at 9:08 PM on August 12, 2021
Big Al 8000, they haven't gotten longer or even (much, for the most part) wider, but they have gotten quite a bit taller. The hood is higher, the roof is higher, the bed is higher, and they even increased the depth of the bed. The liftover height has gotten a bit ridiculous, frankly.
posted by wierdo at 9:49 PM on August 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 9:49 PM on August 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
It used to be that if you wanted a low bed height, you could buy the 2-wheel drive version. But at some point that ended, and the bed heights now are within a couple inches of the 4-wheel drive version.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:13 PM on August 13, 2021
posted by Dip Flash at 4:13 PM on August 13, 2021
I would also note that when we have contractors working, they never use $60k macho trucks
On the other hand, in my area, they all have names like Spartan Drywal (with a Corinthian helmet, natch) and Smack Down Concrete, etc. And all drive giant, lifted trucks. The only ones who use normal utility vehicles are large companies.
I don't know anything, but you'd think it'd be easier to lift gear into a stock 2WD bed than into one lifted 5' off the ground, no? And if costs are a concern, you'd think fuel economy and tire wear would be an issue, too. Far as I can tell, none of these decisions are motivated by reason or prudence.
posted by klanawa at 12:46 PM on August 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, in my area, they all have names like Spartan Drywal (with a Corinthian helmet, natch) and Smack Down Concrete, etc. And all drive giant, lifted trucks. The only ones who use normal utility vehicles are large companies.
I don't know anything, but you'd think it'd be easier to lift gear into a stock 2WD bed than into one lifted 5' off the ground, no? And if costs are a concern, you'd think fuel economy and tire wear would be an issue, too. Far as I can tell, none of these decisions are motivated by reason or prudence.
posted by klanawa at 12:46 PM on August 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
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I hate cars.
posted by misterpatrick at 11:07 AM on August 9, 2021 [25 favorites]