Nobody hates baseball more than Major League Baseball
November 16, 2023 11:20 AM Subscribe
MLB owners approve Athletics' planned move to Las Vegas
I'm so sorry A's fans. You deserve so much better.
I'm so sorry A's fans. You deserve so much better.
I would like to ask every Californian (and decent people in general) to boycott the Gap. John Fisher, the greedhead owner of the A's, inherited the family fortune. He's also a Trump donor.
Do not shop at the Gap. Do not let your friends and family shop at The Gap.
I hope his businesses falter. Certainly, his holdings in California aren't going to be doing well.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:41 AM on November 16, 2023 [31 favorites]
Do not shop at the Gap. Do not let your friends and family shop at The Gap.
I hope his businesses falter. Certainly, his holdings in California aren't going to be doing well.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:41 AM on November 16, 2023 [31 favorites]
For those interested, the family of Gap stores includes: Old Navy, Banana Republic, GapFit, GapBody, GapKids, babyGap, and Athleta.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:44 AM on November 16, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:44 AM on November 16, 2023 [21 favorites]
Not sure who's worse, Manfred or Bettman. (I put that phrase into Google and honestly I am appalled at how many hits there are, and on such high-profile sites, and yet both men persist.)
Man, money ruins -- and rules -- everything.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:55 AM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Man, money ruins -- and rules -- everything.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:55 AM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Nevada Teachers Union, we are all rooting for you.
I talked to some very young A's fans at a home game last September, it made me cry. It's not just that they are moving the team, it's the fact that they are being so incredibly callous about it. I suppose we should expect the team that popularized moneyball to be solely concerned with numbers on a spreadsheet; players, fans, cities, are just P&L line items.>
posted by muddgirl at 11:56 AM on November 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
I talked to some very young A's fans at a home game last September, it made me cry. It's not just that they are moving the team, it's the fact that they are being so incredibly callous about it. I suppose we should expect the team that popularized moneyball to be solely concerned with numbers on a spreadsheet; players, fans, cities, are just P&L line items.>
posted by muddgirl at 11:56 AM on November 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
Businesses never love you back.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:57 AM on November 16, 2023 [52 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:57 AM on November 16, 2023 [52 favorites]
As far as the MLB cares, the A's are now a Nevada-based team, and the Tampa Bay Rays have a new stadium (minus all those pesky votes in St. Petersburg and Pinellas County next year). Now it's time for the real deal: expansion. What cities can MLB get to debase themselves as they grovel for a new baseball team?
posted by stannate at 11:58 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by stannate at 11:58 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
This sucks for Oakland A fans, it really does, but at least personally I am hopeful that we have finally called the bluff on professional sports owners who are using regional pride and tribalism to blackmail local authorities into hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies and money for new stadiums. But my guess is this will only put more pressure on public officials in Oakland to save the team by giving John Fisher all the money and land he wants.
posted by openhearted at 11:59 AM on November 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by openhearted at 11:59 AM on November 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
Now it's time for the real deal: expansion. What cities can MLB get to debase themselves as they grovel for a new baseball team?
I hear Oakland has a stadium -- and some fans -- that's available next spring.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:07 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I hear Oakland has a stadium -- and some fans -- that's available next spring.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:07 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oakland has lost a few sports teams the last few years. It's still a fine city, and hopefully they can get rid of the stadium or repurpose it to something more useful for more people. Nevada residents can handle the taxes and demands of sports owners.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:15 PM on November 16, 2023
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:15 PM on November 16, 2023
Grew up a Royals fan, and have always, always hated the A's for stealing our team.
But having lived through the Sonics departure, do feel bad for the A's fans.
The owners can fuck right off though...
posted by Windopaene at 12:16 PM on November 16, 2023
But having lived through the Sonics departure, do feel bad for the A's fans.
The owners can fuck right off though...
posted by Windopaene at 12:16 PM on November 16, 2023
I'm an SF Giants fan.
I viscerally hate the Oakland As.
The summer I spent as a security guard I did a bunch of As games. I was the only one of the security team that obeyed the rule that we had to keep our backs to the game and not watch at all.
Hey, it's the As, no problem!
I hate the As, did I mention that?
Even still, even the As do not deserve this.
They just don't. Oakland doesn't either.
Fuck those guys.
And: Go Giants!
posted by chavenet at 12:17 PM on November 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
I viscerally hate the Oakland As.
The summer I spent as a security guard I did a bunch of As games. I was the only one of the security team that obeyed the rule that we had to keep our backs to the game and not watch at all.
Hey, it's the As, no problem!
I hate the As, did I mention that?
Even still, even the As do not deserve this.
They just don't. Oakland doesn't either.
Fuck those guys.
And: Go Giants!
posted by chavenet at 12:17 PM on November 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
American Major League Cricket, a bat-and-ball league apparently run by people who like the sport, just finished it's first season in 2023. I note that team names include the Texas Super Kings, the San Franscisco Unicorns and the LA Knight Riders.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:18 PM on November 16, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:18 PM on November 16, 2023 [17 favorites]
Not sure who's worse, Manfred or Bettman. (I put that phrase into Google and honestly I am appalled at how many hits there are, and on such high-profile sites, and yet both men persist.)
These men are there as lightning rods. The more the public is mad at the commissioners, and not at the owners, the happier the owners are. And the owners pay the commissioners' salaries.
posted by thecaddy at 12:29 PM on November 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
These men are there as lightning rods. The more the public is mad at the commissioners, and not at the owners, the happier the owners are. And the owners pay the commissioners' salaries.
posted by thecaddy at 12:29 PM on November 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
I'm sorry, A's fans. This Expos fan gets it.
And I'm sorry to say, but the pain never really goes away.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:30 PM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
And I'm sorry to say, but the pain never really goes away.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:30 PM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
You're not a sports fan, you're a potential income source. If there's a place with more potential income sources "your" team is going to move there. No hard feelings.
posted by tommasz at 12:44 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 12:44 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
doing everything humanly possible to avoid a relocation
Someone has a very convenient perspective on human possibility.
It's entirely possible they could've just.... stayed. Maybe they'll make slightly less profit? Smaller profits are possible.
posted by tclark at 12:49 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Someone has a very convenient perspective on human possibility.
It's entirely possible they could've just.... stayed. Maybe they'll make slightly less profit? Smaller profits are possible.
posted by tclark at 12:49 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
MLB owners inserted a binding protection provision in the contract before approving the deal. If Fisher decides to sell the franchise soon after moving to Las Vegas to make an immediate profit, he will be heavily taxed on the sale, which will be split among his fellow MLB owners, according to another owner who spoke to USA TODAY Sports on the condition of anonymity.
Ah here it is, finally we get to the truth. Fisher sells to some big pocket casino interests and every other millionaire gets their cut.
posted by muddgirl at 12:52 PM on November 16, 2023 [15 favorites]
FWIW, I was recently in Vegas and more than one Uber and shuttle driver talked to us about the fact that the As are maybe coming to town. Vegas is pretty excited that they might come. Based on the conversational topics of choice for drivers, Vegas is also pretty pumped about the Raiders, the Golden Knights and even the Aces and I was pretty thrilled to hear so many drivers talk about women's basketball in the same breath they used to talk about NFL football. It probably helped that we were there in the middle of the WNBA finals, but still.
They are, ummm, less wholly enamored of the idea that the stadium will be in the middle of the Strip, though, given that the Strip is already complete fucking traffic chaos at all times. That might be a position that's particular to people who drive around the Strip for a living, though.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:54 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
They are, ummm, less wholly enamored of the idea that the stadium will be in the middle of the Strip, though, given that the Strip is already complete fucking traffic chaos at all times. That might be a position that's particular to people who drive around the Strip for a living, though.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:54 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
I followed the A's with my dad growing up. I don't really follow sports without my dad around, but this is asshole and sucks.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:58 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:58 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ah here it is, finally we get to the truth.
The owners already have plenty of reasons to vote for the move - the expansion, and with pour encourager lesautres
The owners already have plenty of reasons to vote for the move - the expansion, and with pour encourager les
other people's money. Again quoting from The Athletic:
Manfred has long said that when the A’s and Tampa Bay Rays find new homes, MLB could expand from 30 to 32 teams. Expansion comes with a windfall for current owners: the league charges a large fee, expected to be in the billions, to the ownership group that receives a new franchise. All owners therefore had some incentive to push the A’s stadium process along.posted by zamboni at 1:03 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Baseball’s owners also would be unlikely to stand in the way when one of their own has gotten far enough in a process that $380 million in public money has been promised to him. All owners seek public funding for stadiums, and the more one receives, perhaps the more another can receive later on.
This sucks for Oakland A fans, it really does, but at least personally I am hopeful that we have finally called the bluff on professional sports owners who are using regional pride and tribalism to blackmail local authorities into hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies and money for new stadiums.
One of the reasons this move might be happening is that Nevada is giving the
posted by oneirodynia at 1:04 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
$380 million in public money has been promised to him
He was going to get $570 million in public money if he stayed. But at least a tiny-ass ballpark in the desert isn't competing with the Giants so I guess that's what he's settling for.
But my guess is this will only put more pressure on public officials in Oakland to save the team by giving John Fisher all the money and land he wants.
Apparently the land he wants is in Vegas, the time for negotiating is past. The lesson from Oakland is: there is nothing you can do. Bend over backwards and you get the Raiders. Try and negotiate a mutually beneficial deal and you get the A's. If you are a sports fan and you think your team is safe, it takes just one incompetent trust fund baby to blow up your team.
posted by muddgirl at 1:11 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
He was going to get $570 million in public money if he stayed. But at least a tiny-ass ballpark in the desert isn't competing with the Giants so I guess that's what he's settling for.
But my guess is this will only put more pressure on public officials in Oakland to save the team by giving John Fisher all the money and land he wants.
Apparently the land he wants is in Vegas, the time for negotiating is past. The lesson from Oakland is: there is nothing you can do. Bend over backwards and you get the Raiders. Try and negotiate a mutually beneficial deal and you get the A's. If you are a sports fan and you think your team is safe, it takes just one incompetent trust fund baby to blow up your team.
posted by muddgirl at 1:11 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I note that team names include the Texas Super Kings, the San Francisco Unicorns and the LA Knight Riders
I wondered aloud if the Texas Super Kings were owned by the Chennai Super Kings. And yes, yes they are. and they are even coached by former NZ captain, and all around nice guy, Stephen Fleming, who used to play for the Chennai Super Kings. I don't have high ambitions for MLC, but yay more cricket! I had the slowest day of work yesterday morning as all my remote India colleagues were watching the NZ v India semifinal at the Men's Cricket World Cup.....and then I got absolutely inundated with "sorry for your loss messages" from my 500 closest friends in Hyderabad and Bangalore. Apparently I am the only NZ'er they know so I got my very own well attended pity party....
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:12 PM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
I wondered aloud if the Texas Super Kings were owned by the Chennai Super Kings. And yes, yes they are. and they are even coached by former NZ captain, and all around nice guy, Stephen Fleming, who used to play for the Chennai Super Kings. I don't have high ambitions for MLC, but yay more cricket! I had the slowest day of work yesterday morning as all my remote India colleagues were watching the NZ v India semifinal at the Men's Cricket World Cup.....and then I got absolutely inundated with "sorry for your loss messages" from my 500 closest friends in Hyderabad and Bangalore. Apparently I am the only NZ'er they know so I got my very own well attended pity party....
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:12 PM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
(BTW, the idea that the team will get more money if they leave or that there is more "potential income" is laughable. Fisher has no real evidence that somehow moving to Vegas will improve the team's bottom line. The novelty might increase ticket sales for a few years so he can scrounge up a buyer but there's no real evidence that he will be any more successful as an owner in Vegas than he is in Oakland. Vegas's best hope is the same as Oakland's was - that Fisher sells the team to someone more competent.)
posted by muddgirl at 1:18 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 1:18 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Some of us are old enough to remember when baseball wasn't just billionaires playthings...
"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball.
America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time.
This field, this game -- it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again."
posted by Windopaene at 1:26 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball.
America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time.
This field, this game -- it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again."
posted by Windopaene at 1:26 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Long time A's fan, though much less avid in recent years.
I may just be venting my frustration, but the A's simply don't get much love in the Bay Area. They are second fiddle to the Giants, and attendance is perennially low, in the bottom half of teams even during playoff years. They started covering entire sections with a tarp to make it look less empty. Oakland retrofitted the Colosseum in the '90s to convince the Raiders to move back, willing to make it an uglier stadium and even kicking the A's to Las Vegas for part of a season to accommodate their football fans. The Giants weren't going to give up their San Jose rights and no one seems to hold that against them. The team's willingness to keep stripping the team down to the bone gave us some exciting scrappy underdog years, but knowing the guys you're rooting for will be gone in 3 years regardless doesn't really help long term.
This in an area with 8 million inhabitants.
I wasn't in favor of putting a bunch of municipal dollars into keeping the team. So I don't see how this was going to be avoided. I don't know what it means to say fans deserve better; certainly there weren't a lot of fans supporting the team.
posted by mark k at 1:31 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I may just be venting my frustration, but the A's simply don't get much love in the Bay Area. They are second fiddle to the Giants, and attendance is perennially low, in the bottom half of teams even during playoff years. They started covering entire sections with a tarp to make it look less empty. Oakland retrofitted the Colosseum in the '90s to convince the Raiders to move back, willing to make it an uglier stadium and even kicking the A's to Las Vegas for part of a season to accommodate their football fans. The Giants weren't going to give up their San Jose rights and no one seems to hold that against them. The team's willingness to keep stripping the team down to the bone gave us some exciting scrappy underdog years, but knowing the guys you're rooting for will be gone in 3 years regardless doesn't really help long term.
This in an area with 8 million inhabitants.
I wasn't in favor of putting a bunch of municipal dollars into keeping the team. So I don't see how this was going to be avoided. I don't know what it means to say fans deserve better; certainly there weren't a lot of fans supporting the team.
posted by mark k at 1:31 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'vw never forgiven fhem for abandoning Philadelphia.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:33 PM on November 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:33 PM on November 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
Is it wrong to think that professional sports teams are for profit corporations that sell an entertainment product while heavily subsidized by tax payer money? And that the existence of a professional team and it’s necessary sports facility in a given city creates a situation where the city does not get a return on its investment like the actual owners of the team do?
posted by njohnson23 at 1:36 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 1:36 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is just the next step in our long, slow, sad farewell.
I've been thinking a lot about sports fandom, about how you make a choice to become emotionally invested in a team and ride the highs and lows of that team's successes and failures. There have been moments in tense games when I have thought to myself that I don't really like the way I'm feeling in the moment - fight or flight response kicks in and I feel...bad. The trade-off, of course are those moments of glorious elation.
There is no trade-off for me here. It's just sad all the way down. The long farewell will continue as the Coliseum lease expires and that a$$hole owner decides where they'll play while the Vegas facility is being built.
posted by rekrap at 1:40 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've been thinking a lot about sports fandom, about how you make a choice to become emotionally invested in a team and ride the highs and lows of that team's successes and failures. There have been moments in tense games when I have thought to myself that I don't really like the way I'm feeling in the moment - fight or flight response kicks in and I feel...bad. The trade-off, of course are those moments of glorious elation.
There is no trade-off for me here. It's just sad all the way down. The long farewell will continue as the Coliseum lease expires and that a$$hole owner decides where they'll play while the Vegas facility is being built.
posted by rekrap at 1:40 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Somewhere in Philadelphia, a very tiny violin is being played.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:44 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 1:44 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
They started covering entire sections with a tarp to make it look less empty.
The A's neither wanted nor needed that section of seating demanded by the Raiders.
I wasn't in favor of putting a bunch of municipal dollars into keeping the team. So I don't see how this was going to be avoided. I don't know what it means to say fans deserve better; certainly there weren't a lot of fans supporting the team.
There were no municipal dollars from Oakland- Howard Terminal was going to be privately funded. Oakland had secured 375 million in grants for infrastructure improvments around the stadium.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:52 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Previously (this is a really good article that talks about the efforts Oakland made to keep this team, among other things).
posted by oneirodynia at 1:58 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by oneirodynia at 1:58 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
The A's neither wanted nor needed that section of seating demanded by the Raiders.
Yes, that was one of the numerous ways Oakland catering to Al Davis made the Colosseum worse for baseball. You also used to have this beautiful view of the hills over the outfield, which was walled off with "Mount Davis" so they could cram in luxury boxes.
They were the backup professional team even in Oakland.
posted by mark k at 1:59 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yes, that was one of the numerous ways Oakland catering to Al Davis made the Colosseum worse for baseball. You also used to have this beautiful view of the hills over the outfield, which was walled off with "Mount Davis" so they could cram in luxury boxes.
They were the backup professional team even in Oakland.
posted by mark k at 1:59 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
As a lifelong A's fan this suuuuuuucks so much. I've been grieving a lot since the announcement last year, but ugh, it still hits like a mule kick. I've been really soured on all the MLB because of this. I wasn't ever the biggest baseball fan compared to my love of the A's, but would always watch some of the post season and care. Right now that's all gone. We'd go to 20 or so games at the coliseum and I have a hard time imagining doing that now, we certainly didn't get to that many last year.
posted by Carillon at 2:03 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 2:03 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I love baseball, but I hate Baseball, if that makes sense. It sucks to lose your team, but I also really disagree with teams expecting cities to subsidize their stadiums. If a team wants a nice, new structure for their business, they can buy the land and building just like any other business would have to. I wonder what would happen if cities pumped all those millions into public education and transit? I'd sure like to find out.
posted by xedrik at 2:12 PM on November 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by xedrik at 2:12 PM on November 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
MLB owners inserted a binding protection provision in the contract before approving the deal.
If the Supreme Court ever gets to take a serious look at the MLB antitrust exemption, this seems like the kind of detail that might be relevant.
posted by box at 2:16 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
If the Supreme Court ever gets to take a serious look at the MLB antitrust exemption, this seems like the kind of detail that might be relevant.
posted by box at 2:16 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I know it ultimately rolls up to the same group of assholes, but this is part of why I really do love minor league ball more. It's inherently more transient, but also in a way, not? I mean sure the recent MiLB realignment really did a number on places. (Here in my neck of the woods, we lost the Jethawks and Fresno with it's big beautiful stadium got relegated from AAA to A, which, ouch.)
I love baseball more when it's small and there are mistakes and the ownership is less some ruthlessly brutal billionaire overlordship and more your local run of the mill asshole who seems to get great pride in owning a team (but then again private equity is mucking with that as well)
All of this is to say - sorry A's fans. Owners suck
posted by drewbage1847 at 2:39 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I love baseball more when it's small and there are mistakes and the ownership is less some ruthlessly brutal billionaire overlordship and more your local run of the mill asshole who seems to get great pride in owning a team (but then again private equity is mucking with that as well)
All of this is to say - sorry A's fans. Owners suck
posted by drewbage1847 at 2:39 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some of us are old enough to remember when baseball wasn't just billionaires playthings...
Look into how Charlie Comiskey, Andrew Freedman, Harry Frazee, and all the other owners of his era refused to pay players what they were worth - including win bonuses for championships. Look into how they signed players to lifetime contracts, thus restricting any and all player movement they didn't initiate and also allowing them to artificially suppress salaries. Look into anything those owners did - none of it was for the good of the game. It was all to enrich themselves.
Just because Olde Tyme Baseball always gets looked at with the rosiest of rose-colored glasses doesn't mean the game was once a pure example of good. Baseball, and all sports, have always been like this; it's just more magnified now because there are more zeroes at the ends of contracts (both player and sponsor).
posted by pdb at 2:56 PM on November 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
Look into how Charlie Comiskey, Andrew Freedman, Harry Frazee, and all the other owners of his era refused to pay players what they were worth - including win bonuses for championships. Look into how they signed players to lifetime contracts, thus restricting any and all player movement they didn't initiate and also allowing them to artificially suppress salaries. Look into anything those owners did - none of it was for the good of the game. It was all to enrich themselves.
Just because Olde Tyme Baseball always gets looked at with the rosiest of rose-colored glasses doesn't mean the game was once a pure example of good. Baseball, and all sports, have always been like this; it's just more magnified now because there are more zeroes at the ends of contracts (both player and sponsor).
posted by pdb at 2:56 PM on November 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
> $380 million in public money has been promised to him
I would like someone to explain to me in very small words, why in the year 2023 when professional sports are like multi-billion/trillion dollar businesses, one red cent of public money goes into ANY sports stadium anywhere?
If anything, cities should be charging sports teams for the privilege of having a stadium, humongous (mostly empty) parking lots, etc etc etc. Of course, I'm joking about the "charge" - we don't need to charge them anything special, just the usual property, income, and business taxes every other business in the city pays after they have spent their own money building and operating their own stadium, parking lot, etc etc etc .
Oh, it doesn't make business sense to build and operate a giant stadium complex? And it wouldn't be possible for the owners to pay the normal and ordinary taxes that every other business owner in the city does? Then why in the absolutely $$#$*(C$K is anyone - especially TAXPAYERS - doing it?
I guess I've become a Republican, because I am pretty damn sure that I can spend my tax dollars currently going to subsidize billionaire's businesses interests far more productively than asshole billionaires do.
Here's the research: A new sports facility has an extremely small (perhaps even negative) effect on overall economic activity and employment. No recent facility appears to have earned anything approaching a reasonable return on investment.
And here is an example of how it can be done a different way.
FWIW it looks like, in our local area, we give an annual subsidy to our professional sports complex SEVERAL TIMES the annual spending on homelessness.
I'm sure that makes total sense, as the billionaire team owners definitely need our money far more than the starving and homeless do.
posted by flug at 3:00 PM on November 16, 2023 [14 favorites]
I would like someone to explain to me in very small words, why in the year 2023 when professional sports are like multi-billion/trillion dollar businesses, one red cent of public money goes into ANY sports stadium anywhere?
If anything, cities should be charging sports teams for the privilege of having a stadium, humongous (mostly empty) parking lots, etc etc etc. Of course, I'm joking about the "charge" - we don't need to charge them anything special, just the usual property, income, and business taxes every other business in the city pays after they have spent their own money building and operating their own stadium, parking lot, etc etc etc .
Oh, it doesn't make business sense to build and operate a giant stadium complex? And it wouldn't be possible for the owners to pay the normal and ordinary taxes that every other business owner in the city does? Then why in the absolutely $$#$*(C$K is anyone - especially TAXPAYERS - doing it?
I guess I've become a Republican, because I am pretty damn sure that I can spend my tax dollars currently going to subsidize billionaire's businesses interests far more productively than asshole billionaires do.
Here's the research: A new sports facility has an extremely small (perhaps even negative) effect on overall economic activity and employment. No recent facility appears to have earned anything approaching a reasonable return on investment.
And here is an example of how it can be done a different way.
FWIW it looks like, in our local area, we give an annual subsidy to our professional sports complex SEVERAL TIMES the annual spending on homelessness.
I'm sure that makes total sense, as the billionaire team owners definitely need our money far more than the starving and homeless do.
posted by flug at 3:00 PM on November 16, 2023 [14 favorites]
This is just throwing water on my guttering flame of fandom for major league baseball. Taking baseball out of Oakland to move to Las fucking Vegas is some seriously Roald Dahl level of casual cruelty.
I'll admit that I'm a bit heated about this, maybe because they tried to contract the local team I grew up with a while ago, so fuck you MLB and a special fuck you to that horribly evil wizened lich called Bud Selig. I know they're not contracting the A's, but you tell my cousins' 11 year old why there's a difference. I don't think I can even try to do it until I cool off a bit.
Somebody please find that phylactery.
posted by Sphinx at 3:02 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'll admit that I'm a bit heated about this, maybe because they tried to contract the local team I grew up with a while ago, so fuck you MLB and a special fuck you to that horribly evil wizened lich called Bud Selig. I know they're not contracting the A's, but you tell my cousins' 11 year old why there's a difference. I don't think I can even try to do it until I cool off a bit.
Somebody please find that phylactery.
posted by Sphinx at 3:02 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
personally I am hopeful that we have finally called the bluff on professional sports owners who are using regional pride and tribalism to blackmail local authorities into hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies and money for new stadiums.
That's literally the the reason they went to Las Vegas, though.
posted by pdb at 3:06 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's literally the the reason they went to Las Vegas, though.
posted by pdb at 3:06 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
> why in the year 2023 when professional sports are like multi-billion/trillion dollar businesses, one red cent of public money goes into ANY sports stadium anywhere?
Sports teams fans are, from a political viewpoint, a religion that’s legal to bribe voters with.
posted by Callisto Prime at 3:29 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Sports teams fans are, from a political viewpoint, a religion that’s legal to bribe voters with.
posted by Callisto Prime at 3:29 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I always figured that sports teams were a relatively harmless (mostly/usually) way of sublimating inter-"area" conflicts. The Red Sox are better than the Yankees (not this year, we both sucked) and I can poke my New Yorker friends about it instead of engaging in a knife fight... or something. (See Giants/Dodgers games as an example of where that doesn't quite work out)
But yeah, public $$ getting spent on something largely used by private enterprise is - par for the course here? Doesn't make it right, but sure demonstrates how cost effective it is to buy a political machine.
posted by drewbage1847 at 3:39 PM on November 16, 2023
But yeah, public $$ getting spent on something largely used by private enterprise is - par for the course here? Doesn't make it right, but sure demonstrates how cost effective it is to buy a political machine.
posted by drewbage1847 at 3:39 PM on November 16, 2023
Ugh... it gets terribler and terribler...
posted by smcdow at 3:44 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by smcdow at 3:44 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is ownership bullshit and it's completely unfair to root against the kids who have been working their asses of to get to the show. But fuck the hell off Fisher. Don't let the door hit you in the ass.
We will see the same pattern of the A's being a quadruple-A team but with a more expensive stadium. Way to go.
I remember 1989. This whole thing is just fucking depressing.
posted by East14thTaco at 4:11 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
We will see the same pattern of the A's being a quadruple-A team but with a more expensive stadium. Way to go.
I remember 1989. This whole thing is just fucking depressing.
posted by East14thTaco at 4:11 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
$380 million in public money has been promised to him
I would like someone to explain to me in very small words, why in the year 2023 when professional sports are like multi-billion/trillion dollar businesses, one red cent of public money goes into ANY sports stadium anywhere?
The money available in Oakland was grants for infrastructure improvements that had overall benefits to Oakland: bike lanes and pedestrian improvements and toxic soil cleanup. Part of the ballpark was going to permanently be a public park. Currently it's a parking lot in an industrial area. Those grants still exist, and a ballpark can still be built at Howard Terminal.
But yeah, why he's getting free money from Nevada for a private ballpark on the strip and a tax-free district is a great question.
Another great article from Tim Keown at ESPN today.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:47 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I would like someone to explain to me in very small words, why in the year 2023 when professional sports are like multi-billion/trillion dollar businesses, one red cent of public money goes into ANY sports stadium anywhere?
The money available in Oakland was grants for infrastructure improvements that had overall benefits to Oakland: bike lanes and pedestrian improvements and toxic soil cleanup. Part of the ballpark was going to permanently be a public park. Currently it's a parking lot in an industrial area. Those grants still exist, and a ballpark can still be built at Howard Terminal.
But yeah, why he's getting free money from Nevada for a private ballpark on the strip and a tax-free district is a great question.
Another great article from Tim Keown at ESPN today.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:47 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Between Connie Mack's periodic fire sales and contentment to be in the cellar for years for cheap, early adventures in Westward migration, and Charlie Finley's willingness to sell anything and everything to anyone who would buy, the A's franchise has always had a certain aura of mercenaryism surrounding it. Not around the players, not around the fans... but around the machine that surrounded them.
It's a crime that they had to continue down that path.
Launch Manfred into orbit around Neptune, and pitch clockso delenda est.
posted by delfin at 5:35 PM on November 16, 2023
It's a crime that they had to continue down that path.
Launch Manfred into orbit around Neptune, and pitch clockso delenda est.
posted by delfin at 5:35 PM on November 16, 2023
nationalize sports
posted by web5.0 at 5:38 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by web5.0 at 5:38 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
We may as well nationalize sports. It is practically a branch of the US military at this point.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:58 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:58 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think the Giant's role in screwing over the A's needs to be discussed as well. Oakland, in and of itself, is not a big city. It's the ninth biggest city in California. It's not even the second biggest city in the Bay Area. But MLB measures market size as a greater region than just a team's home city. So the A's, for market size and therefore revenue sharing purposes, are a large-market team thanks to being in the Bay Area. They don't get the same sort of shared revenue payout for small-market teams that go to teams like the Royals or the Pirates.
So if the A's aren't happy with their stadium and deal with Oakland, they can just move to San Jose or Santa Clara, right? It's all part of their home market. The Braves recently left Atlanta proper for the suburbs and no one had to approve anything. The problem is the Giants have a lock on the South Bay - in the 80's they were looking to move to Santa Clara or San Jose and the A's allowed them to have sole rights to that part of the area to help the move along. They never moved, but also never relinquished territorial rights to that region despite finally getting a new ballpark downtown and not needing to leave the city anymore. Oakland was no longer allowed to move anywhere except the East Bay despite the entire region counting as their territory for revenue sharing purposes.
posted by thecjm at 8:17 PM on November 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
So if the A's aren't happy with their stadium and deal with Oakland, they can just move to San Jose or Santa Clara, right? It's all part of their home market. The Braves recently left Atlanta proper for the suburbs and no one had to approve anything. The problem is the Giants have a lock on the South Bay - in the 80's they were looking to move to Santa Clara or San Jose and the A's allowed them to have sole rights to that part of the area to help the move along. They never moved, but also never relinquished territorial rights to that region despite finally getting a new ballpark downtown and not needing to leave the city anymore. Oakland was no longer allowed to move anywhere except the East Bay despite the entire region counting as their territory for revenue sharing purposes.
posted by thecjm at 8:17 PM on November 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
The A’s could have moved to Sacramento and would have had plenty of fans. But there wouldn’t have been as much $$$ for the owners.
posted by CostcoCultist at 10:39 PM on November 16, 2023
posted by CostcoCultist at 10:39 PM on November 16, 2023
Here's an almost random anecdote that I don't mind sharing since my uncle has passed away (Covid).
So my dad tells me that my uncle wanted me to do some research for him. Which was strange, but flattering. I'm the research guy? Anyway, when I talk to him, he wants me to research how pro teams negotiate for new stadia and whatnot. Why? His lifelong closest friend owns the Sacramento Kings.
I'm like, uh, Chuck, you know that Gavin must have extremely qualified people he pays to do this kind of thing? But he insisted.
I didn't really do much research because the whole thing was ridiculous. I never knew why he asked me for this — I've suspected he just wanted some kind of precis to read so he knew more? And could discuss it? I don't know.
But for a moment there it was extremely strange.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:04 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
So my dad tells me that my uncle wanted me to do some research for him. Which was strange, but flattering. I'm the research guy? Anyway, when I talk to him, he wants me to research how pro teams negotiate for new stadia and whatnot. Why? His lifelong closest friend owns the Sacramento Kings.
I'm like, uh, Chuck, you know that Gavin must have extremely qualified people he pays to do this kind of thing? But he insisted.
I didn't really do much research because the whole thing was ridiculous. I never knew why he asked me for this — I've suspected he just wanted some kind of precis to read so he knew more? And could discuss it? I don't know.
But for a moment there it was extremely strange.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:04 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’ll never understand having an emotional stake in pro sports, or even the point of affiliating teams with a city. Of any given team, how many players actually come from or even reside in the city of the team? So… none?
Years ago I remember the anger that Albert Pujols was leaving the Cards after the 2011 season. Like, what the fuck, people? Do you get angry if a co-worker takes a better job? It’s his *job* and he was offered *more money* to go elsewhere. If you’re offered a fat raise to do the same job down the street for another company *take it.*
I’m probably more cynical than most about this because I watched St. Louis go through this twice with NFL teams. It’s a fucking business. Sinking public money into these franchises is the height of wasted tax money. Getting personally invested in the teams is just bonkers. They do not love you. Not the owners, not the players. They do not have allegiance to you or your city. They will definitely leave for more money.
posted by jzb at 3:24 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Years ago I remember the anger that Albert Pujols was leaving the Cards after the 2011 season. Like, what the fuck, people? Do you get angry if a co-worker takes a better job? It’s his *job* and he was offered *more money* to go elsewhere. If you’re offered a fat raise to do the same job down the street for another company *take it.*
I’m probably more cynical than most about this because I watched St. Louis go through this twice with NFL teams. It’s a fucking business. Sinking public money into these franchises is the height of wasted tax money. Getting personally invested in the teams is just bonkers. They do not love you. Not the owners, not the players. They do not have allegiance to you or your city. They will definitely leave for more money.
posted by jzb at 3:24 AM on November 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Getting personally invested in the teams is just bonkers.
"Loyalty to any one sports team is pretty hard to justify. Because the players are always changing, the team can move to another city. You're actually rooting for the clothes when you get right down to it. I mean, you are standing and cheering and yelling for your clothes to beat the clothes from another city. Fans will be so in love with a player, but if he goes to another team, they boo him. This is the same human being in a different shirt. They hate him now. "Boo! Different shirt. Booooo.""-Jerry Seinfeld
posted by TedW at 4:33 AM on November 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
"Loyalty to any one sports team is pretty hard to justify. Because the players are always changing, the team can move to another city. You're actually rooting for the clothes when you get right down to it. I mean, you are standing and cheering and yelling for your clothes to beat the clothes from another city. Fans will be so in love with a player, but if he goes to another team, they boo him. This is the same human being in a different shirt. They hate him now. "Boo! Different shirt. Booooo.""-Jerry Seinfeld
posted by TedW at 4:33 AM on November 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
I always figured that sports teams were a relatively harmless (mostly/usually) way of sublimating inter-"area" conflicts.and
Of any given team, how many players actually come from or even reside in the city of the team? So… none?I think the situation has somewhat deteriorated here, although it may just be a consequence of noticing more as I age. A stable roster reinforces the first, and causes the second to actually be true in a meaningful sense. If you have the same core group of players over a multi-year span, you do start to build an enduring identity around a team and a city. They're still going to have ups and downs, and it becomes more meaningful to follow them as a fan.
I grew up in a Reds family, at a perfect time to do so. I love baseball, and that'll never change. But I am utterly disinterested in the Reds as a team because they have no core identity. The roster completely turns over year to year! Joey Votto was the last little thread of continuity lately, but he only stuck around because he was contractually locked in.
This is a whole baseball problem, and it is a money problem, but it is fundamentally an ownership problem. How can a person own a group of people? I guess it's the same as owning any business, so maybe I'm just telling on myself here. But the idea that one of these billionaires can buy and sell the contracts of the players feels utterly wrong to me.
I have this romantic vision of European club soccer, where the neighborhood or town fields a team of locals. It sounds lovely, like the ideal alluded to in the quotes above. This is basically high school sports in the US, and what college sports used to be. But money has steadily corrupted college sports until they're unrecognizable in that regard, and a parallel process is underway at the high school level too.
It's no coincidence that wealth is concentrating in general in this country at this moment. Its gravitational pull can ruin anything for the folks with less. Baseball is merely a symptom.
posted by dbx at 5:13 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Franchising appears to be one of the worst possible ways of organising sports.
I have this romantic vision of European club soccer, where the neighborhood or town fields a team of locals.
This isn't how things are. But many clubs in Europe are owned by their fans, and it is rare for any team however owned to substantially change location. But then, there is a much stronger tendency to have promotion and relegation. So there are ways for teams to grow in stature as their city gets bigger and more important relative to other places. And owners can buy success in different ways.
posted by plonkee at 5:39 AM on November 17, 2023
I have this romantic vision of European club soccer, where the neighborhood or town fields a team of locals.
This isn't how things are. But many clubs in Europe are owned by their fans, and it is rare for any team however owned to substantially change location. But then, there is a much stronger tendency to have promotion and relegation. So there are ways for teams to grow in stature as their city gets bigger and more important relative to other places. And owners can buy success in different ways.
posted by plonkee at 5:39 AM on November 17, 2023
personally I am hopeful that we have finally called the bluff on professional sports owners who are using regional pride and tribalism to blackmail local authorities into hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies and money for new stadiums.
I see you're not following the news from Wisconsin!
posted by escabeche at 6:25 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I see you're not following the news from Wisconsin!
posted by escabeche at 6:25 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
@escabeche: my "favorite" thing about that one is...the Brewers didn't even ask for that money! The WI legislature looked around at all the other teams getting subsidies now and went UH OH WE BETTER GIVE THEM MONEY ASAP OR THIS TEAM WHO HAS NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT MOVING EVER MIGHT MOVE.
The whole thing is so completely absurd and wrong - and I say that as a lifelong sports fan. I hate the public expenditure for private gain model so much.
posted by pdb at 7:23 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
The whole thing is so completely absurd and wrong - and I say that as a lifelong sports fan. I hate the public expenditure for private gain model so much.
posted by pdb at 7:23 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oakland, in and of itself, is not a big city. It's the ninth biggest city in California. It's not even the second biggest city in the Bay Area.
Oakland is big enough for an MLB town. You say it has a small population but that's because Bay Area Californians are *some banned word here*, and it has barely grown in the past 50 years. All the MLB cities that are smaller are rust belt cities that have lost hundreds of thousands in population.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:02 AM on November 17, 2023
Oakland is big enough for an MLB town. You say it has a small population but that's because Bay Area Californians are *some banned word here*, and it has barely grown in the past 50 years. All the MLB cities that are smaller are rust belt cities that have lost hundreds of thousands in population.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:02 AM on November 17, 2023
The Brewers were probably a trying void the negative connections of publicly begging for money, but they have definitely been providing the lawmakers hints that they could move to Vegas or elsewhere if their stadium gets too old/ out of date.
Oakland city limits aren't large, but there fanshed should extend far beyond. This includes everyone near a BART line. I also I grew up in the greater Sacramento area and there were summer school field trips to A's games. One difference between CA and WI is that you are never gonna to see the state legislature weigh in on funding, and so that does limit it to the city of Oakland/ Alameda County who would actually put up tax$.
I know people who live near the Oregon border and in Fresno who would make 1-2 basball trips to the bay per year. Fresno does a have a direct Vegas flight now, but its a lot more expensive to fly a family to Vegas than to toss the kids in a car for a 3 hour drive.
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:49 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oakland city limits aren't large, but there fanshed should extend far beyond. This includes everyone near a BART line. I also I grew up in the greater Sacramento area and there were summer school field trips to A's games. One difference between CA and WI is that you are never gonna to see the state legislature weigh in on funding, and so that does limit it to the city of Oakland/ Alameda County who would actually put up tax$.
I know people who live near the Oregon border and in Fresno who would make 1-2 basball trips to the bay per year. Fresno does a have a direct Vegas flight now, but its a lot more expensive to fly a family to Vegas than to toss the kids in a car for a 3 hour drive.
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:49 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
We really do need a Federal law prohibiting any government at any level from giving any sports organization money, land, tax breaks, or anything else that could remotely be considered to have any financial value at all.
All this horrible shit seems to have the common root of sportsball franchises relocating on the promise of expensive things being offered by the new location. That's a travesty for sports and citizens alike.
posted by sotonohito at 8:51 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
All this horrible shit seems to have the common root of sportsball franchises relocating on the promise of expensive things being offered by the new location. That's a travesty for sports and citizens alike.
posted by sotonohito at 8:51 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's not even the second biggest city in the Bay Area
Oakland is big enough for an MLB town.
The second biggest city in the Bay Area is, of course, San Francisco (San Jose is the biggest!)
Which I bring up to support the point that it’s really a sprawling metro region that could very well support two teams in principle. In practice, for a variety of reasons, the Giants have captured a much larger share of the market, both in the Bay Area proper and in peripheral regions.
posted by atoxyl at 9:31 AM on November 17, 2023
Oakland is big enough for an MLB town.
The second biggest city in the Bay Area is, of course, San Francisco (San Jose is the biggest!)
Which I bring up to support the point that it’s really a sprawling metro region that could very well support two teams in principle. In practice, for a variety of reasons, the Giants have captured a much larger share of the market, both in the Bay Area proper and in peripheral regions.
posted by atoxyl at 9:31 AM on November 17, 2023
@sotonohito: that law should also extend to any big private business. Sports teams are the most visible and probably most expensive example, but demanding tax breaks and infrastructure improvements on the public dime while taking all the profits privately is pretty standard behavior for any big business looking to relocate/expand.
posted by pdb at 9:33 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by pdb at 9:33 AM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Bay Area Californians are *some banned word here*
Bay Areans?
posted by kirkaracha at 9:34 AM on November 17, 2023
Bay Areans?
posted by kirkaracha at 9:34 AM on November 17, 2023
Oakland has lost a few sports teams the last few years.
The Golden State Warriors (who, like the A's, were founded in Philadelphia) moved back to San Francisco in 2019. The Raiders moved to Las Vegas in 2020. The A's are following them in 2023.
The "San Francisco" 49ers are in Santa Clara, 40 miles from San Francisco. At least the "New York" Giants and Jets, who play in New Jersey, are only five miles away from New York City.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:49 AM on November 17, 2023
The Golden State Warriors (who, like the A's, were founded in Philadelphia) moved back to San Francisco in 2019. The Raiders moved to Las Vegas in 2020. The A's are following them in 2023.
The "San Francisco" 49ers are in Santa Clara, 40 miles from San Francisco. At least the "New York" Giants and Jets, who play in New Jersey, are only five miles away from New York City.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:49 AM on November 17, 2023
Last I heard the San Francisco Unicorns are also planning to build their pitch in San Jose. It's a weird sports market.
posted by muddgirl at 9:54 AM on November 17, 2023
posted by muddgirl at 9:54 AM on November 17, 2023
I think that the only positive thing I can say about Bay Area sports teams today is that the sports facilities are fairly accessible via public transit.
The Oakland Coliseum area has a direct BART link with a pedestrian overpass from the platform right into the stadium.
The S.F. Giants stadium has an SF Muni light rail station and is walkable from Caltrain commuter rail. Note: Giants fans are not allowed to drink alcohol on the train after games. Any other time is OK.
The Warriors arena also has an S.F. Muni light rail station and is walkable from Caltrain. Muni fares are free with an event ticket.
The Sharks arena in San Jose has a light rail stop and the Diridon train station across the street (Caltrain, Capitol Corridor, ACE Train, Amtrak). The arena is overseen by a city commission with public meetings (the city's involvement means you can bring in outside food to Sharks games).
The Earthquakes soccer stadium has a recently-completed pedestrian tunnel to Caltrain.
posted by JDC8 at 3:51 PM on November 17, 2023
The Oakland Coliseum area has a direct BART link with a pedestrian overpass from the platform right into the stadium.
The S.F. Giants stadium has an SF Muni light rail station and is walkable from Caltrain commuter rail. Note: Giants fans are not allowed to drink alcohol on the train after games. Any other time is OK.
The Warriors arena also has an S.F. Muni light rail station and is walkable from Caltrain. Muni fares are free with an event ticket.
The Sharks arena in San Jose has a light rail stop and the Diridon train station across the street (Caltrain, Capitol Corridor, ACE Train, Amtrak). The arena is overseen by a city commission with public meetings (the city's involvement means you can bring in outside food to Sharks games).
The Earthquakes soccer stadium has a recently-completed pedestrian tunnel to Caltrain.
posted by JDC8 at 3:51 PM on November 17, 2023
"Bay Area Californians are *some banned word here*, and it has barely grown in the past 50 years"
NIMBY motherfuckers?
posted by klangklangston at 6:49 PM on November 18, 2023
NIMBY motherfuckers?
posted by klangklangston at 6:49 PM on November 18, 2023
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posted by zamboni at 11:36 AM on November 16, 2023 [28 favorites]