The End of Retirement
November 20, 2023 8:53 AM Subscribe
“There’s not enough gold in my golden years." (slTheWalrus)
Caveat: this articles uses Canadian stats as it is a Canada-based magazine.
Caveat: this articles uses Canadian stats as it is a Canada-based magazine.
I remember telling my parents when I was in my 20s that I was likely never going to be able to retire, and they both kind of shrugged and told me I was being pessimistic and not to believe the people telling me that. But here we are, as predicted.
My husband's and my goal is to retire. Someday, we do want to stop working. To that end, we save, we invest, we throw money into making our home what we want it to be, etc. But we're privileged in being able to do that. And at the same time we're really only a calamity or two away from not being able to do that.
And really, all we're doing is working our asses off to be able to survive our "golden years" under capitalism. That's not really a laudable thing, imo. We should be ensuring that the things required for life are not contingent on working - like housing, like food, like heating/cooling, like water. I really hope UBI comes through and allows people to be able to have those things whether they are working or not.
posted by eekernohan at 9:18 AM on November 20, 2023 [39 favorites]
My husband's and my goal is to retire. Someday, we do want to stop working. To that end, we save, we invest, we throw money into making our home what we want it to be, etc. But we're privileged in being able to do that. And at the same time we're really only a calamity or two away from not being able to do that.
And really, all we're doing is working our asses off to be able to survive our "golden years" under capitalism. That's not really a laudable thing, imo. We should be ensuring that the things required for life are not contingent on working - like housing, like food, like heating/cooling, like water. I really hope UBI comes through and allows people to be able to have those things whether they are working or not.
posted by eekernohan at 9:18 AM on November 20, 2023 [39 favorites]
The face I made when I got to the part about how maybe you don't want to retire because people without a "purpose" die earlier.
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:18 AM on November 20, 2023 [32 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:18 AM on November 20, 2023 [32 favorites]
Here's Tim Gurner saying the quiet part out loud.
posted by zaixfeep at 9:18 AM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 9:18 AM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
I am dealing with these issues right now. Next year I will hit the US traditional retirement age of 65. Due to a lifetime of saving for retirement, my financial adviser says I can replace almost all of my working income with Social Security and investment withdrawals. It is an attractive prospect.
And yet... Will there be enough money? I will have to pay for a roof, AC system, car repairs, etc. What if there is another hurricane? With significant damage it will not make sense to fix the house back up. Where would we live?
How would I stay active and useful? There are a couple volunteer opportunities that sound interesting, such as at a nearby park and also the local senior center. Perhaps take some short trips. Yet the statement about hoping it will snow so that there is something to shovel is surprisingly on target.
But I am dealing with a slow degenerative disease. I will not remain sharp enough to do my job for as many years as I hoped. And I am tired.
Should I stay or should I go?
posted by Midnight Skulker at 9:22 AM on November 20, 2023 [22 favorites]
And yet... Will there be enough money? I will have to pay for a roof, AC system, car repairs, etc. What if there is another hurricane? With significant damage it will not make sense to fix the house back up. Where would we live?
How would I stay active and useful? There are a couple volunteer opportunities that sound interesting, such as at a nearby park and also the local senior center. Perhaps take some short trips. Yet the statement about hoping it will snow so that there is something to shovel is surprisingly on target.
But I am dealing with a slow degenerative disease. I will not remain sharp enough to do my job for as many years as I hoped. And I am tired.
Should I stay or should I go?
posted by Midnight Skulker at 9:22 AM on November 20, 2023 [22 favorites]
The "people have to have more kids so they can pay into the pension/retirement system" argument really lays bare how much of a pyramid scheme capitalism is.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:30 AM on November 20, 2023 [68 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:30 AM on November 20, 2023 [68 favorites]
The "people have to have more kids so they can pay into the pension/retirement system" argument really lays bare how much of a pyramid scheme capitalism is.
Sorry, what does funding a retirement system have to do with capitalism, specifically? Isn't this a problem under any economic system? E.g., Social Security in the U.S. is government-run. My right-wing, socialism-hating relatives call Social Security a pyramid scheme.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:37 AM on November 20, 2023 [23 favorites]
Sorry, what does funding a retirement system have to do with capitalism, specifically? Isn't this a problem under any economic system? E.g., Social Security in the U.S. is government-run. My right-wing, socialism-hating relatives call Social Security a pyramid scheme.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:37 AM on November 20, 2023 [23 favorites]
This article is kind of all over the map, and packed with seemingly gratuitous, anecdote-based panic.
You could live to be 117! People think they need $1.7 million to retire! They actually don't, but still, that's a big scary number! Also, ageism is bad! Also, we may never be able to retire -- that's bad! Also, retirement is bad -- don't do it!
Whew.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:43 AM on November 20, 2023 [23 favorites]
You could live to be 117! People think they need $1.7 million to retire! They actually don't, but still, that's a big scary number! Also, ageism is bad! Also, we may never be able to retire -- that's bad! Also, retirement is bad -- don't do it!
Whew.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:43 AM on November 20, 2023 [23 favorites]
It's funny how the view on retirement can also be driven by family. My wife's mom was in a kinda sort early retirement in that she got laid off later in life and then never really went back to full time employment. She ended up just passing after 20ish years of that sort of life. Meanwhile, my family seems utterly allergic to retirement. Both my grandparents passed within a year or two of giving up their last jobs. (Admittedly, my grandfather's retirement job was as a conductor on a tourist railroad and my grams was a librarian in a small village, so neither high stress occupation.) I know this is part of the reason my mom went back to teaching after being retired for a couple of years, she's said she could feel herself slipping mentally
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:53 AM on November 20, 2023
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:53 AM on November 20, 2023
Sorry, what does funding a retirement system have to do with capitalism, specifically? Isn't this a problem under any economic system?
You mean a system that is funded directly by the people who are supposed to be able to retire? I mean with cash coming out of our pay and going directly to SS. Then removed by congress to pay for other nonsense and never payed back. That system?
Or are you talking about the fantasy based system that the republicans talk about that's funded through the tears and hard work of the 1%?
I'd say the fact that capitalists see it as free money to steal from the poor and give to the rich make it a capitalist problem. Though you are right, it could theoretically happen in other systems. Lets try another way and find out.
posted by evilDoug at 9:58 AM on November 20, 2023 [35 favorites]
You mean a system that is funded directly by the people who are supposed to be able to retire? I mean with cash coming out of our pay and going directly to SS. Then removed by congress to pay for other nonsense and never payed back. That system?
Or are you talking about the fantasy based system that the republicans talk about that's funded through the tears and hard work of the 1%?
I'd say the fact that capitalists see it as free money to steal from the poor and give to the rich make it a capitalist problem. Though you are right, it could theoretically happen in other systems. Lets try another way and find out.
posted by evilDoug at 9:58 AM on November 20, 2023 [35 favorites]
My dad hated retirement when it came time to step down from the Florida Highway Patrol. HATED IT.
So much that he spent his retirement running for chief of police in his community, handily won, and remained so until last year he was forcibly retired. He is miserable at 69 because he has no purpose. I am like, "You live on the coast. Go look at the damn water."
We met with a financial planner last year and she was like, "Don't worry about your retirement. From the looks of it, you will be fine until as long as nothing changes too much."
Yeah, yeah, that's uh, doable.
posted by Kitteh at 10:14 AM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
So much that he spent his retirement running for chief of police in his community, handily won, and remained so until last year he was forcibly retired. He is miserable at 69 because he has no purpose. I am like, "You live on the coast. Go look at the damn water."
We met with a financial planner last year and she was like, "Don't worry about your retirement. From the looks of it, you will be fine until as long as nothing changes too much."
Yeah, yeah, that's uh, doable.
posted by Kitteh at 10:14 AM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Social Security (and other government programs) are not funded by taxes, the government doesn’t need our money to operate because the government is the source of our money. Poverty is instead a political choice.
posted by migurski at 10:19 AM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by migurski at 10:19 AM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
In Canada we have a plan called Freedom 55, for people who can retire at that age.
I've spent a life in art with not renumeration along the way and relying on shitty factory and warehouse jobs to pay the bills. I am still plugging away at art but at my present job, which I do because there will be a small pension at the end, I refer to my pension plan as Freedom 71.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 10:21 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've spent a life in art with not renumeration along the way and relying on shitty factory and warehouse jobs to pay the bills. I am still plugging away at art but at my present job, which I do because there will be a small pension at the end, I refer to my pension plan as Freedom 71.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 10:21 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
...in 1881, he proposed that all Germans had the right to government support after a life of work, with payments kicking in at age seventy. Except that life expectancy in the 1880s was about forty years.
This again? I know it's a bit of a tangent to the main article, but low average life expectancy in the past did not mean that most people died by age 40! What tended to lower the average, aside from things like war, were death in childhood or child birth. If you lived to adulthood, most people could reasonable expect to live at least into their 60s (which is still not amazing if you're government-funded retirement payments don't kick in until 70, but it's not like most people were dropping dead 30 years before they'd be eligible for retirement).
posted by asnider at 10:23 AM on November 20, 2023 [44 favorites]
This again? I know it's a bit of a tangent to the main article, but low average life expectancy in the past did not mean that most people died by age 40! What tended to lower the average, aside from things like war, were death in childhood or child birth. If you lived to adulthood, most people could reasonable expect to live at least into their 60s (which is still not amazing if you're government-funded retirement payments don't kick in until 70, but it's not like most people were dropping dead 30 years before they'd be eligible for retirement).
posted by asnider at 10:23 AM on November 20, 2023 [44 favorites]
For USians you can breathe a sigh of relief as the life expectancy is 76 and still dropping, so a lot of this is not going to be an issue and/or you’ll be homeless and in deep medical debt long before it is.
You really know how to cheer a fellow up!
I'm resigned to the realization that I'll never be able to retire. I don't fear death, I fear the period preceding it where I've become too decrepit/addled to be employable nor take care of myself. At that point I may find a handy ice floe and head out to sea, to spare my son the financial and emotional expense of watching me waste away in a hospital or nursing home. The future's so bright I need shades (due to impending cataracts)...
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:26 AM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
You really know how to cheer a fellow up!
I'm resigned to the realization that I'll never be able to retire. I don't fear death, I fear the period preceding it where I've become too decrepit/addled to be employable nor take care of myself. At that point I may find a handy ice floe and head out to sea, to spare my son the financial and emotional expense of watching me waste away in a hospital or nursing home. The future's so bright I need shades (due to impending cataracts)...
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:26 AM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
Migurski, is that a modern monetary theory idea?
posted by Selena777 at 10:45 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 10:45 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
More to the point of the article, I am damn pleased to have a reasonable pension through my work (though the fund isn't being especially well managed at the moment, which has been worried).
Between dealing with undiagnosed ADHD for most of my life and just generally not having a great financial education in my youth, saving for the future is something I haven't really done until fairly recently. Without my pension, I will probably die of poverty in my old age (or simply never retire), so I'm glad to have sort of lucked into this job long enough ago that, according to various calculations, I should be able to retire reasonably comfortably around 65. Of course, that assumes nothing much changes for 25 years other than, hopefully, my salary continuing to increase for at least a few more years.
posted by asnider at 10:46 AM on November 20, 2023
Between dealing with undiagnosed ADHD for most of my life and just generally not having a great financial education in my youth, saving for the future is something I haven't really done until fairly recently. Without my pension, I will probably die of poverty in my old age (or simply never retire), so I'm glad to have sort of lucked into this job long enough ago that, according to various calculations, I should be able to retire reasonably comfortably around 65. Of course, that assumes nothing much changes for 25 years other than, hopefully, my salary continuing to increase for at least a few more years.
posted by asnider at 10:46 AM on November 20, 2023
Of course, the above doesn't account for my CPP contributions, which may or may not be torn to shreds and invested in a bunch of fossil fuel companies if the current premier has her way.
posted by asnider at 10:51 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by asnider at 10:51 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
This article is kind of all over the map, and packed with seemingly gratuitous, anecdote-based panic.
Yes, this was my read too.
Anyway, based on the experience of my male relatives, I'll likely live into my early nineties. I and I alone am responsible for how I approach my aging. I'm not trying to be a snarky contrarian, I really wish the government would do more to support and help senior citizens especially those living in poverty. But government or no, I need to focus on what I can and cannot control about the latter half of my life.
What I cannot control: government old age support, how long my employer(s) will want to pay me, what the markets are doing, inflation, the cost of housing, etc.
What I can control: choosing not to pursue a consumeristic lifestyle, maintaining a high level of personal fitness especially my functional strength (especially my legs and core to prevent falls due to sarcopenia), keeping a handle on my blood work and cardio outputs, eating a balanced diet of whole foods, getting good quality sleep, abstaining from all drugs and alcohol, and managing my stress levels.
The single most important thing under my control, however, is maintaining strong positive relationships with my spouse, children, extended family, and church. I really think this is the key. If I have a strong and healthy network of people who are invested in my life and they in mine, well - that's the best chance I have to enjoy a positive and secure "retirement."
posted by fortitude25 at 10:57 AM on November 20, 2023 [23 favorites]
Yes, this was my read too.
Anyway, based on the experience of my male relatives, I'll likely live into my early nineties. I and I alone am responsible for how I approach my aging. I'm not trying to be a snarky contrarian, I really wish the government would do more to support and help senior citizens especially those living in poverty. But government or no, I need to focus on what I can and cannot control about the latter half of my life.
What I cannot control: government old age support, how long my employer(s) will want to pay me, what the markets are doing, inflation, the cost of housing, etc.
What I can control: choosing not to pursue a consumeristic lifestyle, maintaining a high level of personal fitness especially my functional strength (especially my legs and core to prevent falls due to sarcopenia), keeping a handle on my blood work and cardio outputs, eating a balanced diet of whole foods, getting good quality sleep, abstaining from all drugs and alcohol, and managing my stress levels.
The single most important thing under my control, however, is maintaining strong positive relationships with my spouse, children, extended family, and church. I really think this is the key. If I have a strong and healthy network of people who are invested in my life and they in mine, well - that's the best chance I have to enjoy a positive and secure "retirement."
posted by fortitude25 at 10:57 AM on November 20, 2023 [23 favorites]
20 years ago I knew my parents weren't ever going to be able to retire. My chances were 0 then and < 0 now. After the pandemic, I'm hoping my chances of not to continue to scrape the bottom of the barrel are better than 50/50. I'm at SNAP card and plasma donations. "This is fucked" is what I mutter to myself on the daily.
posted by alex_skazat at 11:02 AM on November 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by alex_skazat at 11:02 AM on November 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
The good news if you're Canadian is that in just under two years at the most, Pierre Poilievre will be elected Prime Minister and will work tirelessly to improve the lot of the working classes.
/s
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:09 AM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
/s
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:09 AM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm less likely to say "I expect to live to XX" and instead say "I expect to live no longer than YY". I suspect they indicate the same thing, but I watching friends and family unexpectedly pass and I'm not optimistic on my chances of lasting. Don't have enough to retire, though, so the article is prescient for my non-retirement (if IT workers of a certain age have a choice).
posted by bacalao_y_betun at 11:13 AM on November 20, 2023
posted by bacalao_y_betun at 11:13 AM on November 20, 2023
In Canada we have a plan called Freedom 55, for people who can retire at that age.
That's not a plan, it's a brand that's largely been dropped / folded into Canada Life.
posted by synecdoche at 11:25 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's not a plan, it's a brand that's largely been dropped / folded into Canada Life.
posted by synecdoche at 11:25 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am literally days away from retirement, after which I need to make sure my income will be sufficient for the next 30 to 35 years. (My family tends to live a looooong time.) It will be okay in the immediate future, but my gosh the world is unpredictable. And retirement planning is all about predicting the future.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 11:31 AM on November 20, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 11:31 AM on November 20, 2023 [14 favorites]
The article is interesting, and I really appreciated hearing about the Canadian situation, Kitteh. I think the reactions here are proof of the "land of contrasts" thing, and the diversity of how we all deal with the possibility or actuality of aging and dying -- some of us worry, some of us rage, some of us joke.
I wish MetaFilter could be a little more sensitive about these conversations. There are elders and aging folks (some who can retire, some who can't) in the user base, including in this room. The article's reference to ageism as “the last socially acceptable form of prejudice" feels to me like it applies here a lot of the time. Kindness costs nothing.
posted by cupcakeninja at 11:33 AM on November 20, 2023 [34 favorites]
I wish MetaFilter could be a little more sensitive about these conversations. There are elders and aging folks (some who can retire, some who can't) in the user base, including in this room. The article's reference to ageism as “the last socially acceptable form of prejudice" feels to me like it applies here a lot of the time. Kindness costs nothing.
posted by cupcakeninja at 11:33 AM on November 20, 2023 [34 favorites]
A perspective on retirement savings that I found interesting are that they - in combination with all of your pension and social security entitlements - represent the proportion of future world output that you are entitled to.
So if the world isn't producing much when you retire, even big retirement savings won't get you much. A big slice of a small pie is still a small slice.
If the world is producing a lot when you retire, even small retirement savings along with social security might be enough to get by.
Of course those entitlements are denominated in a currency, and if that currency inflates or deflates relative to other currencies, or the price of goods all around the world, the amount of total world output that you're entitled to will change.
Anyway, I find perspectives useful that remove money from what's being talked about. How much money you have is just a roundabout way of saying what proportion of the world's future production you'll be able to commandeer.
posted by clawsoon at 11:35 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
So if the world isn't producing much when you retire, even big retirement savings won't get you much. A big slice of a small pie is still a small slice.
If the world is producing a lot when you retire, even small retirement savings along with social security might be enough to get by.
Of course those entitlements are denominated in a currency, and if that currency inflates or deflates relative to other currencies, or the price of goods all around the world, the amount of total world output that you're entitled to will change.
Anyway, I find perspectives useful that remove money from what's being talked about. How much money you have is just a roundabout way of saying what proportion of the world's future production you'll be able to commandeer.
posted by clawsoon at 11:35 AM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Right, it's more like potential money than real money; it only becomes real when you spend it.
posted by SaltySalticid at 11:44 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by SaltySalticid at 11:44 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
cash coming out of our pay and going directly to SS. Then removed by congress to pay for other nonsense and never payed back.
as far as I can tell this a right-wing (and sometimes left-wing) canard and is not actually true
posted by BungaDunga at 11:53 AM on November 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
as far as I can tell this a right-wing (and sometimes left-wing) canard and is not actually true
posted by BungaDunga at 11:53 AM on November 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
You could live to be 117!
That age seems like such an outlier as to be completely useless for anyone's retirement planning.
There's a danger in retiring too early, or with too little, but there's also a danger in working past when you absolutely have to -- longevity averages are just that, averages, and even if people in your family live a long time, you may not. I had a close relative work past the traditional retirement age and past when he could have (modestly) retired because men in his side of the family typically live to be very, very old. Unfortunately that turned out not to be the case for him, and he passed away never having actually retired or done any of the things he was planning to do once retired.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:07 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
That age seems like such an outlier as to be completely useless for anyone's retirement planning.
There's a danger in retiring too early, or with too little, but there's also a danger in working past when you absolutely have to -- longevity averages are just that, averages, and even if people in your family live a long time, you may not. I had a close relative work past the traditional retirement age and past when he could have (modestly) retired because men in his side of the family typically live to be very, very old. Unfortunately that turned out not to be the case for him, and he passed away never having actually retired or done any of the things he was planning to do once retired.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:07 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
ThatCanadianGirl: ...retirement planning is all about predicting the future.
Which reminds me: making every one of us manage our own retirement savings was a cruel trick, because if we were very good at it, investing would be our damn job already.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:21 PM on November 20, 2023 [56 favorites]
Which reminds me: making every one of us manage our own retirement savings was a cruel trick, because if we were very good at it, investing would be our damn job already.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:21 PM on November 20, 2023 [56 favorites]
I think the reactions here are proof of the "land of contrasts" thing, and the diversity of how we all deal with the possibility or actuality of aging and dying -- some of us worry, some of us rage, some of us joke.
One of the things that we do have here in Canada that tends to take a little of the sting off is having access to healthcare regardless of income. Having worked in Canadian healthcare, my US family was incredulous to learn that the clinic I worked at had unhoused patients as a matter of course. I'm like, "they are still citizens, they are owed healthcare regardless of their lack of a permanent home."
But back to the article and its themes, I don't have the kind of Boomer parents people want to burn at the stake (which often doesn't matter because all Boomers are a wealthy monolith, apparently); I have the kind of parents where one parent solely lives off her SS income and sometimes asks me for financial help, and the other parent lost all his savings in 2008 when the market crashed and pointedly tells me and my sister that we won't get anything from him when he dies (we have never asked so it's weird).
Like, I am technically better off than my parents were at my age, but my RRSP is still a sad sad thing because I don't make enough to routinely make large contributions. I worry about it a lot. My partner was raised with better money management skills than me so he's much better off, and I feel guilty about not being able to match that.
posted by Kitteh at 12:21 PM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
One of the things that we do have here in Canada that tends to take a little of the sting off is having access to healthcare regardless of income. Having worked in Canadian healthcare, my US family was incredulous to learn that the clinic I worked at had unhoused patients as a matter of course. I'm like, "they are still citizens, they are owed healthcare regardless of their lack of a permanent home."
But back to the article and its themes, I don't have the kind of Boomer parents people want to burn at the stake (which often doesn't matter because all Boomers are a wealthy monolith, apparently); I have the kind of parents where one parent solely lives off her SS income and sometimes asks me for financial help, and the other parent lost all his savings in 2008 when the market crashed and pointedly tells me and my sister that we won't get anything from him when he dies (we have never asked so it's weird).
Like, I am technically better off than my parents were at my age, but my RRSP is still a sad sad thing because I don't make enough to routinely make large contributions. I worry about it a lot. My partner was raised with better money management skills than me so he's much better off, and I feel guilty about not being able to match that.
posted by Kitteh at 12:21 PM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
Of course those entitlements are denominated in a currency, and if that currency inflates or deflates relative to other currencies, or the price of goods all around the world, the amount of total world output that you're entitled to will change.
For those of us in the developed world, a lot might change over the next few decades if we don't maintain the global systems of power that cause so many goods and highly skilled workers to flow in the direction of Europe and North America.
When I grew up, my doctors were immigrants from Greece and China, because who else was going to move to rural Alberta to be a highly educated professional except people whose original homes had been made shitty by global power relations?
When I retire, that forcing of the rest of the world to serve me and mine might not be in place to the same extent, so I'll have to adjust.
posted by clawsoon at 12:28 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
For those of us in the developed world, a lot might change over the next few decades if we don't maintain the global systems of power that cause so many goods and highly skilled workers to flow in the direction of Europe and North America.
When I grew up, my doctors were immigrants from Greece and China, because who else was going to move to rural Alberta to be a highly educated professional except people whose original homes had been made shitty by global power relations?
When I retire, that forcing of the rest of the world to serve me and mine might not be in place to the same extent, so I'll have to adjust.
posted by clawsoon at 12:28 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
My dad was just telling me that he and my mother had planned to go to Europe after they retired. They could have afforded a modest trip before retirement but didn't...and then in her late fifties my mother was diagnosed with a truly terrible illness that caused her a long, slow death with immense fear and suffering. So yes, don't put off too many dreams - it's a tough balancing act, but I do wish they had gone.
posted by Frowner at 12:30 PM on November 20, 2023 [31 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 12:30 PM on November 20, 2023 [31 favorites]
The face I made when I got to the part about how maybe you don't want to retire because people without a "purpose" die earlier.
There is definitely a subset of people (and they are a subset, not the entirety) who do not handle transitioning away from mandated work well. Some of them never had the time to develop strong interests outside of work, some of them aren't good at following through at tasks when there's no outside pressure, some of them were just really into their work. But it is in fact possible to end up with a "work-shaped hole" in your life and consequently find retired life unfulfillingly empty.
But that's not a universal or even all that common experience, I don't think. Even when retirement is a jolt to people's routines they often get used to it after some time.
posted by jackbishop at 12:36 PM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
There is definitely a subset of people (and they are a subset, not the entirety) who do not handle transitioning away from mandated work well. Some of them never had the time to develop strong interests outside of work, some of them aren't good at following through at tasks when there's no outside pressure, some of them were just really into their work. But it is in fact possible to end up with a "work-shaped hole" in your life and consequently find retired life unfulfillingly empty.
But that's not a universal or even all that common experience, I don't think. Even when retirement is a jolt to people's routines they often get used to it after some time.
posted by jackbishop at 12:36 PM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
It's hard for me to tell how long a lifespan I'll have because both my parents died of smoking-damaged heart issues (and I don't smoke), and their parents died of that plus "born too early for good cardiac care to be a thing."
I do know to keep an eye on my heart, but whether it or something else decides to be my main issue as I age is unknown yet.
Per retirement, well, when I can't work anymore I will do my best to be a nuisance to the powers that be if I'm able. Especially if I'm facing poverty myself.
posted by emjaybee at 12:36 PM on November 20, 2023
I do know to keep an eye on my heart, but whether it or something else decides to be my main issue as I age is unknown yet.
Per retirement, well, when I can't work anymore I will do my best to be a nuisance to the powers that be if I'm able. Especially if I'm facing poverty myself.
posted by emjaybee at 12:36 PM on November 20, 2023
Which reminds me: making every one of us manage our own retirement savings was a cruel trick, because if we were very good at it, investing would be our damn job already.
Not to mention there’s the little factor of having enough money to, you know, actually put in retirement accounts. There are a lot of people that can’t afford that. And for some of the people who do have some extra, it’s a dilemma - put that money to the 401k or the HSA? What about those trying to save for their kids’ college fund? I do know people that have the ability to contribute to a 401k and just don’t, but I know a lot of people who are living in such razor thin margins that it’s not an option for them. You can tell people they have to think about their future all you want, and that’s going nowhere if they don’t even know how they’re going to pay the power bill this month. I expect this is a ticking time bomb that’s going to go off soon, because the first generation that worked in the 401k era is getting to retirement age, many with no pensions.
posted by azpenguin at 12:38 PM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
Not to mention there’s the little factor of having enough money to, you know, actually put in retirement accounts. There are a lot of people that can’t afford that. And for some of the people who do have some extra, it’s a dilemma - put that money to the 401k or the HSA? What about those trying to save for their kids’ college fund? I do know people that have the ability to contribute to a 401k and just don’t, but I know a lot of people who are living in such razor thin margins that it’s not an option for them. You can tell people they have to think about their future all you want, and that’s going nowhere if they don’t even know how they’re going to pay the power bill this month. I expect this is a ticking time bomb that’s going to go off soon, because the first generation that worked in the 401k era is getting to retirement age, many with no pensions.
posted by azpenguin at 12:38 PM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
Quote from the article:
In Canada, we’re at the lower end, with dependency expected to hit about thirty-five by 2025, according to 2015 data from the OECD, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. But by 2075, our dependency ratio is projected to be 49.9—one dependent for every two working-age Canadians. That’s a big burden for Xs, Ms, and Zs. “The shrinking percentage of young people means that in the future, the number of workers may be insufficient to finance the pensions of retirees,” according to StatCan.
Canada has recently achieved a domestic birth rate of 1.33 children per woman that's now lower than the Japanese birth rate of 1.4, but still higher than the domestic birth rate of 0.71 of South Korea's. The article mentions that young people are necessary to keep retirements stable, but I'm wondering if the socialized retirement plans created free loading behavior. One was financially better off retiring, having few kids, or zero kids, and hoping your investments grow because the population would grow and you can retire. But when everyone began to do that strategy, the economy struggles to grow because there isn't a growing population and so retirement funds can't find a place to invest to. So you have a bunch of childfree elderly people in the system, but who should actually pay for them if their retirement funds collapse? South Korea's pension fund is predicted to collapse by 2055. Should Generation Alpha and Generation Beta work extra hard to support retirements of childfree couples that they have no family connection to? And the North American experience is that of boomers pulling the economic ladder out from under the younger generations, so why should the younger generations have to then deal with the boomer's retirement issues, when younger generations have had to deal with education and housing costs that were more prohibitive?
posted by DetriusXii at 12:40 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
In Canada, we’re at the lower end, with dependency expected to hit about thirty-five by 2025, according to 2015 data from the OECD, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. But by 2075, our dependency ratio is projected to be 49.9—one dependent for every two working-age Canadians. That’s a big burden for Xs, Ms, and Zs. “The shrinking percentage of young people means that in the future, the number of workers may be insufficient to finance the pensions of retirees,” according to StatCan.
Canada has recently achieved a domestic birth rate of 1.33 children per woman that's now lower than the Japanese birth rate of 1.4, but still higher than the domestic birth rate of 0.71 of South Korea's. The article mentions that young people are necessary to keep retirements stable, but I'm wondering if the socialized retirement plans created free loading behavior. One was financially better off retiring, having few kids, or zero kids, and hoping your investments grow because the population would grow and you can retire. But when everyone began to do that strategy, the economy struggles to grow because there isn't a growing population and so retirement funds can't find a place to invest to. So you have a bunch of childfree elderly people in the system, but who should actually pay for them if their retirement funds collapse? South Korea's pension fund is predicted to collapse by 2055. Should Generation Alpha and Generation Beta work extra hard to support retirements of childfree couples that they have no family connection to? And the North American experience is that of boomers pulling the economic ladder out from under the younger generations, so why should the younger generations have to then deal with the boomer's retirement issues, when younger generations have had to deal with education and housing costs that were more prohibitive?
posted by DetriusXii at 12:40 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've always assumed that the retirement calculators that say "You need $X million to retire!! You're running behind!!" were just sales tools for financial advisors. In short: "Send me your money".
Yes, lots of people probably haven't saved enough, including me, but the bar on those calculators seems so high, they've never had a lot of value to me.
posted by gimonca at 12:43 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes, lots of people probably haven't saved enough, including me, but the bar on those calculators seems so high, they've never had a lot of value to me.
posted by gimonca at 12:43 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
The face I made when I got to the part about how maybe you don't want to retire because people without a "purpose" die earlier.
I've always thought the takeaway should be less "don't retire" and more "cultivate a sense of purpose outside of your job". I think that is just a healthier place to be regardless of how close you are to retirement. Like many things in life, it takes effort to develop new habits and practices and so finding whatever it is you will want to do after retirement should start long beforehand, I would think.
posted by selenized at 12:47 PM on November 20, 2023 [31 favorites]
I've always thought the takeaway should be less "don't retire" and more "cultivate a sense of purpose outside of your job". I think that is just a healthier place to be regardless of how close you are to retirement. Like many things in life, it takes effort to develop new habits and practices and so finding whatever it is you will want to do after retirement should start long beforehand, I would think.
posted by selenized at 12:47 PM on November 20, 2023 [31 favorites]
“For USians you can breathe a sigh of relief as the life expectancy is 76 and still dropping...”
Right now, in the US, the life expectancy at age 65 is just a bit more than 18 years, i.e., the average 65 year-old today will live to be 83.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:48 PM on November 20, 2023 [11 favorites]
Right now, in the US, the life expectancy at age 65 is just a bit more than 18 years, i.e., the average 65 year-old today will live to be 83.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:48 PM on November 20, 2023 [11 favorites]
I'm wondering if the socialized retirement plans created free loading behavior. One was financially better off retiring, having few kids, or zero kids, and hoping your investments grow because the population would grow and you can retire. But when everyone began to do that strategy, the economy struggles to grow because there isn't a growing population and so retirement funds can't find a place to invest to. So you have a bunch of childfree elderly people in the system, but who should actually pay for them if their retirement funds collapse?
Holup. Are you suggesting that child free people are a burden on the system? We never had kids and one of the biggest reasons was that we could not afford to support them. That’s becoming an even bigger factor with the younger generations. There’s a common right-wing mantra that people receiving government benefits are freeloaders, yet many could never raise kids without that support.Expecting everyone to save enough money for retirement outside a socialized retirement plan is setting a lot of the population up for failure, because that expects the capitalist side of society to pay enough money to workers where people can actually do that.
posted by azpenguin at 12:49 PM on November 20, 2023 [31 favorites]
Holup. Are you suggesting that child free people are a burden on the system? We never had kids and one of the biggest reasons was that we could not afford to support them. That’s becoming an even bigger factor with the younger generations. There’s a common right-wing mantra that people receiving government benefits are freeloaders, yet many could never raise kids without that support.Expecting everyone to save enough money for retirement outside a socialized retirement plan is setting a lot of the population up for failure, because that expects the capitalist side of society to pay enough money to workers where people can actually do that.
posted by azpenguin at 12:49 PM on November 20, 2023 [31 favorites]
...I'm wondering if the socialized retirement plans created free loading behavior. One was financially better off retiring, having few kids, or zero kids, and hoping your investments grow because the population would grow and you can retire. But when everyone began to do that strategy...
I'll start with the caveat that people choose to have or not have children for a variety of reasons and they are often quite personal. Having said that, I cannot imagine many people are such rational actors, coolly running the numbers in their head, that the decision of having few or no children was due to a long-term retirement strategy that involved "free-loading" off the future work of other people's children.
Do such individuals exist? Possibly. Are they a large and possibly even majority group? This seems much less likely to me.
As income and education -- especially education for women -- go up, fertility rates tend to decline. This is a trend we see across cultures and political/economic structures. I don't imagine it's because hundreds of millions of people are such devious, self-interested masterminds that they're having fewer children because it's the best way to maximize their retirement savings (as long as most people don't follow this strategy, of course).
posted by asnider at 12:50 PM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'll start with the caveat that people choose to have or not have children for a variety of reasons and they are often quite personal. Having said that, I cannot imagine many people are such rational actors, coolly running the numbers in their head, that the decision of having few or no children was due to a long-term retirement strategy that involved "free-loading" off the future work of other people's children.
Do such individuals exist? Possibly. Are they a large and possibly even majority group? This seems much less likely to me.
As income and education -- especially education for women -- go up, fertility rates tend to decline. This is a trend we see across cultures and political/economic structures. I don't imagine it's because hundreds of millions of people are such devious, self-interested masterminds that they're having fewer children because it's the best way to maximize their retirement savings (as long as most people don't follow this strategy, of course).
posted by asnider at 12:50 PM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
A big thing being left out here is that retired people *do* have purpose - they generally work in their *communities* - they just do it on their own time, don’t get paid, and can take vacations whenever they want. Count me out of having to have a boss for another thirty years, thanks.
But I am also one of those with a defined pension with cost of living increases, so it’s easier for me to say that.
The situation seems pretty clear to me though - socialize healthcare, and then all the money everyone is putting into care nurses and medicine can go back into paying for your actual life.
posted by corb at 12:53 PM on November 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
But I am also one of those with a defined pension with cost of living increases, so it’s easier for me to say that.
The situation seems pretty clear to me though - socialize healthcare, and then all the money everyone is putting into care nurses and medicine can go back into paying for your actual life.
posted by corb at 12:53 PM on November 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
The face I made when I got to the part about how maybe you don't want to retire because people without a "purpose" die earlier.
I’d say go talk to a retired man whose spouse of four more decades had died, but that might be hard since the average lifespan of that situation is less than 5 years.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 12:56 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’d say go talk to a retired man whose spouse of four more decades had died, but that might be hard since the average lifespan of that situation is less than 5 years.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 12:56 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
One was financially better off retiring, having few kids, or zero kids, and hoping your investments grow because the population would grow and you can retire.
I have never heard anyone suggest doing that. I've heard people say they don't want kids because the world is too terrible. I've heard people say they *do* want kids but can't afford to have them. I've heard people say they want kids because "who else will look after us when we are old?" I have never, ever heard anyone say they don't want kids so they can have all their money for themselves when they retire.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 1:04 PM on November 20, 2023 [30 favorites]
I have never heard anyone suggest doing that. I've heard people say they don't want kids because the world is too terrible. I've heard people say they *do* want kids but can't afford to have them. I've heard people say they want kids because "who else will look after us when we are old?" I have never, ever heard anyone say they don't want kids so they can have all their money for themselves when they retire.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 1:04 PM on November 20, 2023 [30 favorites]
There are a few retired former employees from my workplace who drop by from time to time to say hello, looking well-rested and tanned, and invariably they're just returning from/soon leaving for weeks-long vacations in countries situated across various oceans. It's like talking to people from The Capitol in the Hunger Games.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:06 PM on November 20, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:06 PM on November 20, 2023 [18 favorites]
In my opinion as a retiree, the most important thing about retirement is, when you reach it, it's probably too late to do much about it. Gather ye rosebuds while ye may...
posted by jim in austin at 1:07 PM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 1:07 PM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
the retirement calculators that say "You need $X million to retire!! You're running behind!!" were just sales tools for financial advisors.
Compound interest is a strange beast, you can be behind for a long time and then suddenly you will catch up, the trick is to just keep saving regularly. Warren Buffet made 99% of his fortune after the age of 60.
posted by Lanark at 1:08 PM on November 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
Compound interest is a strange beast, you can be behind for a long time and then suddenly you will catch up, the trick is to just keep saving regularly. Warren Buffet made 99% of his fortune after the age of 60.
posted by Lanark at 1:08 PM on November 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
the retirement calculators that say "You need $X million to retire!! You're running behind!!" were just sales tools for financial advisors
Yeah all those financial advisors making in loads of cash when I bump up my 401k contribution from 6 to 8%
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:11 PM on November 20, 2023
Yeah all those financial advisors making in loads of cash when I bump up my 401k contribution from 6 to 8%
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:11 PM on November 20, 2023
all those financial advisors making in loads of cash when I bump up my 401k contribution from 6 to 8%
If you, for example, trust some rando from your insurance company to give you advice and put your money in a fund with a 5.95% front load (which, by the way, ends up going back to the rando via the investment company), then, yes, they make a tidy profit. And then they get mad when your children twig to this scheme and get you to transfer all your investments away from them, including cashing out the two (!) whole-life policies you, a person of modest income with no dependents and no need for tax planning, are paying for. Just a toooooooootally hypothetical example which absolutely didn't happen to a family member of mine.
401(k)s and IRAs for the masses were pushed in the 80s for two big reasons: (a) mystifying the effect of the decline of defined-benefit pensions and (b) creating millions upon millions of investors in the "dumb money" category for brokers and "financial advisors" to batten on.
posted by praemunire at 1:18 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
If you, for example, trust some rando from your insurance company to give you advice and put your money in a fund with a 5.95% front load (which, by the way, ends up going back to the rando via the investment company), then, yes, they make a tidy profit. And then they get mad when your children twig to this scheme and get you to transfer all your investments away from them, including cashing out the two (!) whole-life policies you, a person of modest income with no dependents and no need for tax planning, are paying for. Just a toooooooootally hypothetical example which absolutely didn't happen to a family member of mine.
401(k)s and IRAs for the masses were pushed in the 80s for two big reasons: (a) mystifying the effect of the decline of defined-benefit pensions and (b) creating millions upon millions of investors in the "dumb money" category for brokers and "financial advisors" to batten on.
posted by praemunire at 1:18 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've been saying for years I don't realistically think retirement will exist by the time I'm that age. People tell me at my age it'll still be around, but not for the younger people. Whee.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:19 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:19 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm wondering if the socialized retirement plans created free loading behavior. One was financially better off retiring, having few kids, or zero kids, and hoping your investments grow because the population would grow and you can retire. But when everyone began to do that strategy, the economy struggles to grow because there isn't a growing population and so retirement funds can't find a place to invest to. So you have a bunch of childfree elderly people in the system, but who should actually pay for them if their retirement funds collapse?
This is a pretty gross statement, tbh. So you're saying, whether I want to or not (or can or not) I need to pop out a few kids in order to be deemed worthy to retire? I don't think so. And that's assuming that child free people don't contribute to child rearing in any way. Which is also false. This is a very "your life is only worth something if you pump out new workers to feed the capitalist machine" kind of mentality.
posted by eekernohan at 1:22 PM on November 20, 2023 [18 favorites]
This is a pretty gross statement, tbh. So you're saying, whether I want to or not (or can or not) I need to pop out a few kids in order to be deemed worthy to retire? I don't think so. And that's assuming that child free people don't contribute to child rearing in any way. Which is also false. This is a very "your life is only worth something if you pump out new workers to feed the capitalist machine" kind of mentality.
posted by eekernohan at 1:22 PM on November 20, 2023 [18 favorites]
I will say Western society gives us mixed messages on whether childfree people are freeloaders or ideal employees.
posted by Selena777 at 1:27 PM on November 20, 2023 [36 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 1:27 PM on November 20, 2023 [36 favorites]
Being of retirement age and single, I'd like someone to point out to me those other people's children who are gonna be forced to take care of me, because right now it looks like I'm gonna be taking care of myself, with the money I put into the system while I worked. I'd so love to have someone else to lean on.
posted by evilDoug at 1:38 PM on November 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 1:38 PM on November 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
I thought from the link text that this was going to be a snarky McSweeny's article. I'd enjoy that!
posted by srboisvert at 1:43 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by srboisvert at 1:43 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have never, ever heard anyone say they don't want kids so they can have all their money for themselves when they retire.
It's me. I never wanted kids because I didn't want to share any of the things I barely manage to have for myself. Pure selfish decision.
posted by srboisvert at 1:47 PM on November 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's me. I never wanted kids because I didn't want to share any of the things I barely manage to have for myself. Pure selfish decision.
posted by srboisvert at 1:47 PM on November 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
It isn’t until you get to the age where your own parents are elderly and in declining health that you see just how horrifically expensive being old in the US is. When my mom was in decline due to Alzheimer’s, the bills were crazy. And, once she had to enter memory care, well, we had to liquidate all she had in order to qualify for Medicaid assistance. And, let me tell you, senior facilities, and especially memory care, do not like taking-in Medicaid patients.
Even my FIL, who saved all his life, was buried under massive bills for assisted living.
I’m fast-approaching those times, and it scares the hell out of me. I’ve managed to put savings together, but damned if I know if it’s going to be enough, especially given the right’s hard-on for ending Medicare (the real Medicare, not the bullshit Advantage Plan Medicare) and slicing Social Security. I definitely lose a lot of sleep over it.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:56 PM on November 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
Even my FIL, who saved all his life, was buried under massive bills for assisted living.
I’m fast-approaching those times, and it scares the hell out of me. I’ve managed to put savings together, but damned if I know if it’s going to be enough, especially given the right’s hard-on for ending Medicare (the real Medicare, not the bullshit Advantage Plan Medicare) and slicing Social Security. I definitely lose a lot of sleep over it.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:56 PM on November 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
...the other parent lost all his savings in 2008 when the market crashed and pointedly tells me and my sister that we won't get anything from him when he dies (we have never asked so it's weird).
My guess is that not having money to pass down to you and your sister is one of his biggest regrets. He probably comes from an era and social group where having money to pass on to the children is the thing that ensures they stay in the middle class or even improve their position, and he is acutely aware he failed to secure this future for you. I think he is saying that to you from a position of pain and shame.
posted by Jane the Brown at 1:57 PM on November 20, 2023 [16 favorites]
My guess is that not having money to pass down to you and your sister is one of his biggest regrets. He probably comes from an era and social group where having money to pass on to the children is the thing that ensures they stay in the middle class or even improve their position, and he is acutely aware he failed to secure this future for you. I think he is saying that to you from a position of pain and shame.
posted by Jane the Brown at 1:57 PM on November 20, 2023 [16 favorites]
It's me. I never wanted kids because I didn't want to share any of the things I barely manage to have for myself. Pure selfish decision.
Trust me on this, it is fully possible to look at the world right now and feel selfish for having had kids, and feel guilt about what’s ahead however much you love them.
posted by Artw at 1:59 PM on November 20, 2023 [17 favorites]
Trust me on this, it is fully possible to look at the world right now and feel selfish for having had kids, and feel guilt about what’s ahead however much you love them.
posted by Artw at 1:59 PM on November 20, 2023 [17 favorites]
I have a child, but she's going to need to be taken care of for her whole life, so all of the paragons of economic efficiency, quiverfulls or dinks, are going to have reason to be displeased with me.
And, yes, how she will be taken care of after I'm gone does gnaw at me, does limit what I spend on enjoyment now, does make me lean harder into how they told me to plan for the future, to save more and more in the hope that somehow that will translate into a better life for her when I'm dead or disabled.
posted by clawsoon at 2:08 PM on November 20, 2023 [16 favorites]
And, yes, how she will be taken care of after I'm gone does gnaw at me, does limit what I spend on enjoyment now, does make me lean harder into how they told me to plan for the future, to save more and more in the hope that somehow that will translate into a better life for her when I'm dead or disabled.
posted by clawsoon at 2:08 PM on November 20, 2023 [16 favorites]
The "people have to have more kids so they can pay into the pension/retirement system" argument really lays bare how much of a pyramid scheme capitalism is.
I hate capitalism as much as the next person but capitalism has nothing to do with this. It's inherent to being human that old people cannot survive through an extended old age if birth rates go down below a certain level. This is as true in your favorite socialist / communist / anarchist utopia as it is in late stage capitalism. Generational interdependence is absolutely intrinsic to the human condition.
> You mean a system that is funded directly by the people who are supposed to be able to retire? I mean with cash coming out of our pay and going directly to SS.
> I'd like someone to point out to me those other people's children who are gonna be forced to take care of me, because right now it looks like I'm gonna be taking care of myself, with the money I put into the system while I worked. I'd so love to have someone else to lean on.
This is a really sad misunderstanding of how pensions / social security / retirement funding works. Specifically it seems like you've bought waaaay too deep into the myth of individualism.
No human being is an island entire of themself. Not even if they are single and have no children and no friends. You are part of the main, you belong to society, you are supported by society, you are woven into the fabric of our whole community in a million different ways. One of those ways is: your ability to cash your pension/social security checks depends heavily on whether there's enough people left on the other end to honor it.
"Your" money that you put into the system funded other people's retirement, that is the only meaning that money ever had. Yes, your contributions while you worked are a promissory note guaranteeing you pensions in your turn when you grow old, but what good would a promissory note be in a society that has not enough people left in it to give you the promised services in exchange for it? That promissory note always had an implicit asterisk on it: *provided birth rates remain high enough for future people to make good on the promise.
The good news here is: you do have everyone else around you to lean on. You always did.
None of this is to undercut how awful capitalism is, how capitalists have deliberately stolen the people's pension and social security money on a grand scale, how isolating and scary and lonely it can be to be without close family/community in old age, etc. None of these things contradict the fact that we all depend on birth rates being high enough to support our ability to enjoy retirement.
posted by MiraK at 2:21 PM on November 20, 2023 [28 favorites]
I hate capitalism as much as the next person but capitalism has nothing to do with this. It's inherent to being human that old people cannot survive through an extended old age if birth rates go down below a certain level. This is as true in your favorite socialist / communist / anarchist utopia as it is in late stage capitalism. Generational interdependence is absolutely intrinsic to the human condition.
> You mean a system that is funded directly by the people who are supposed to be able to retire? I mean with cash coming out of our pay and going directly to SS.
> I'd like someone to point out to me those other people's children who are gonna be forced to take care of me, because right now it looks like I'm gonna be taking care of myself, with the money I put into the system while I worked. I'd so love to have someone else to lean on.
This is a really sad misunderstanding of how pensions / social security / retirement funding works. Specifically it seems like you've bought waaaay too deep into the myth of individualism.
No human being is an island entire of themself. Not even if they are single and have no children and no friends. You are part of the main, you belong to society, you are supported by society, you are woven into the fabric of our whole community in a million different ways. One of those ways is: your ability to cash your pension/social security checks depends heavily on whether there's enough people left on the other end to honor it.
"Your" money that you put into the system funded other people's retirement, that is the only meaning that money ever had. Yes, your contributions while you worked are a promissory note guaranteeing you pensions in your turn when you grow old, but what good would a promissory note be in a society that has not enough people left in it to give you the promised services in exchange for it? That promissory note always had an implicit asterisk on it: *provided birth rates remain high enough for future people to make good on the promise.
The good news here is: you do have everyone else around you to lean on. You always did.
None of this is to undercut how awful capitalism is, how capitalists have deliberately stolen the people's pension and social security money on a grand scale, how isolating and scary and lonely it can be to be without close family/community in old age, etc. None of these things contradict the fact that we all depend on birth rates being high enough to support our ability to enjoy retirement.
posted by MiraK at 2:21 PM on November 20, 2023 [28 favorites]
Seriously about compounding interest and regular contributions. The retirement calculator from a good fund management company says that my retirement plan is “on track” even though I only now have 8% of what they project I will retire with in 25 years.
Of course, the regular contributions part still means staying employed at a nominally increasing salary.
posted by Huggiesbear at 2:41 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Of course, the regular contributions part still means staying employed at a nominally increasing salary.
posted by Huggiesbear at 2:41 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Current retirement age for Social Security is 67 for anyone born in 1960 or later. Just wanted to mention that.
If you choose to draw early retirement at 62, your Social Security payments will be reduced by 30% for the rest of your life to make up the difference in months vs. full retirement age (67).
The Social Security Administration uses 35 years of your work wage history to calculate your monthly benefits.
If you work fewer than 35 years, they use $0 for every year you didn't work when calculating your benefit amount.
Social Security is meant to cover about 40% of your work income once you're in retirement, so... plan accordingly.
I just put in some numbers for the quick benefit calculator on SSA.gov.
If I work continuously until I retire at 62, I'll get $2,952 per month in Social Security.
If I work continuously until I retire at 67, and I'll get $5,070 per month in Social Security.
Those numbers will drop a great deal if I have less than 35 years of work wages for them to use in my personal benefit calculation (or work part-time, or take time off to care for a child/relative, etc.).
PLAN ACCORDINGLY.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 2:48 PM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
If you choose to draw early retirement at 62, your Social Security payments will be reduced by 30% for the rest of your life to make up the difference in months vs. full retirement age (67).
The Social Security Administration uses 35 years of your work wage history to calculate your monthly benefits.
If you work fewer than 35 years, they use $0 for every year you didn't work when calculating your benefit amount.
Social Security is meant to cover about 40% of your work income once you're in retirement, so... plan accordingly.
I just put in some numbers for the quick benefit calculator on SSA.gov.
If I work continuously until I retire at 62, I'll get $2,952 per month in Social Security.
If I work continuously until I retire at 67, and I'll get $5,070 per month in Social Security.
Those numbers will drop a great deal if I have less than 35 years of work wages for them to use in my personal benefit calculation (or work part-time, or take time off to care for a child/relative, etc.).
PLAN ACCORDINGLY.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 2:48 PM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
PLAN ACCORDINGLY.
* laughs/cries despondently *
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:58 PM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
* laughs/cries despondently *
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:58 PM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
Compound interest is a strange beast, you can be behind for a long time and then suddenly you will catch up, the trick is to just keep saving regularly. Warren Buffet made 99% of his fortune after the age of 60.
I'm quite aware of how compound interest works, but I'm also sure that "turn yourself into Warren Buffett" is advice that won't scale to cover everyone reaching retirement age.
posted by gimonca at 2:59 PM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'm quite aware of how compound interest works, but I'm also sure that "turn yourself into Warren Buffett" is advice that won't scale to cover everyone reaching retirement age.
posted by gimonca at 2:59 PM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
There's no advice that will scale to cover everyone reaching retirement age, though.
posted by Selena777 at 3:07 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 3:07 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Warren Buffet made 99% of his fortune after the age of 60.
So all he had was just under 1.2 billion before the age of 60? There's hope for me yet!
* fishes for coins in the couch *
posted by Kabanos at 3:09 PM on November 20, 2023 [11 favorites]
So all he had was just under 1.2 billion before the age of 60? There's hope for me yet!
* fishes for coins in the couch *
posted by Kabanos at 3:09 PM on November 20, 2023 [11 favorites]
Thank you for your compassion, cupcakeninja.
I'm Canadian and a few months from my 65th birthday. There are loads of financial decisions I should have made earlier to fund a comfortable retirement, the biggest of which were not to have married someone with a limited earning potential, but having married a classical musician anyway, to not have provided our kids with the material goods and lessons that we felt would enhance their intellectual and artistic growth. Making sure our kids had high quality instruments, lessons, sports equipment, and the best computer gear we could (not really) afford was important. And one kid was accepted into a good film school's visual effects program when he was 16, and is working in his field. The other's access to instruments and computing didn't affect his career. But at 28 and 31, they're both homeowners, husbands, and fathers. We won the lottery in terms of having good kids, but I think my husband and I can take some credit and pride in how they turned out.
We held debt and we felt at least some of our reasons were good. Our contributions to our retirement were minimal, but thank heaven for the American Federation of Musician's pension plan. We weren't particularly worried. We had a tiny bit tucked away, plus my husband's pension, and what the Canadian government provides as a safety net.
But life happened while I was planning otherwise. A year ago I had a catastrophic injury, spent over three months in hospital, and have not worked since, except for picking up a small contract that will end in a month or so. I would happily postpone retirement, or retire more gradually, but will never manage more than a few hours of work in a week again. My husband is leaving me, which was unexpected after 43 years. I started my government pension early in order to pay for the drugs I now require but are not covered by insurance. As a soon-to-be-single old woman, who put the largest part of my earnings into my husband and kids, I face an uncertain future. I have no wish to die early, but I do wonder how I will manage the next 20 years or so. This is just a guess, but I bet my new demographic is quite large.
Those of you who made better decisions—better marriage, fewer or no children, living strictly within your means, and "planning accordingly"—I applaud your perspicacity, prudence, and foresight. I am the fabled grasshopper (although a hard-working one) to your disciplined ant. I didn't quite ignore the onset of winter, but I thought it wouldn't be quite so soon nor quite so cold, and that was not entirely unjustified. My misfortunes are my own doing, I'll agree, but right now I'm in the process of reinventing myself, and I do not need the contempt of people who are younger, smarter, and wealthier.
posted by angiep at 3:14 PM on November 20, 2023 [71 favorites]
I'm Canadian and a few months from my 65th birthday. There are loads of financial decisions I should have made earlier to fund a comfortable retirement, the biggest of which were not to have married someone with a limited earning potential, but having married a classical musician anyway, to not have provided our kids with the material goods and lessons that we felt would enhance their intellectual and artistic growth. Making sure our kids had high quality instruments, lessons, sports equipment, and the best computer gear we could (not really) afford was important. And one kid was accepted into a good film school's visual effects program when he was 16, and is working in his field. The other's access to instruments and computing didn't affect his career. But at 28 and 31, they're both homeowners, husbands, and fathers. We won the lottery in terms of having good kids, but I think my husband and I can take some credit and pride in how they turned out.
We held debt and we felt at least some of our reasons were good. Our contributions to our retirement were minimal, but thank heaven for the American Federation of Musician's pension plan. We weren't particularly worried. We had a tiny bit tucked away, plus my husband's pension, and what the Canadian government provides as a safety net.
But life happened while I was planning otherwise. A year ago I had a catastrophic injury, spent over three months in hospital, and have not worked since, except for picking up a small contract that will end in a month or so. I would happily postpone retirement, or retire more gradually, but will never manage more than a few hours of work in a week again. My husband is leaving me, which was unexpected after 43 years. I started my government pension early in order to pay for the drugs I now require but are not covered by insurance. As a soon-to-be-single old woman, who put the largest part of my earnings into my husband and kids, I face an uncertain future. I have no wish to die early, but I do wonder how I will manage the next 20 years or so. This is just a guess, but I bet my new demographic is quite large.
Those of you who made better decisions—better marriage, fewer or no children, living strictly within your means, and "planning accordingly"—I applaud your perspicacity, prudence, and foresight. I am the fabled grasshopper (although a hard-working one) to your disciplined ant. I didn't quite ignore the onset of winter, but I thought it wouldn't be quite so soon nor quite so cold, and that was not entirely unjustified. My misfortunes are my own doing, I'll agree, but right now I'm in the process of reinventing myself, and I do not need the contempt of people who are younger, smarter, and wealthier.
posted by angiep at 3:14 PM on November 20, 2023 [71 favorites]
You don't have to worry about birth rates if you just allow in more young immigrants. But for some reason we don't want that. Huh.
posted by emjaybee at 3:21 PM on November 20, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 3:21 PM on November 20, 2023 [22 favorites]
Those numbers will drop a great deal if I have less than 35 years of work wages for them to use in my personal benefit calculation (or work part-time, or take time off to care for a child/relative, etc.).
My mother spent most of my life bitterly lamenting that my father's feckless job-holding record forced her into full-time work. But those decades of full-time work and social security contributions are the only thing making it possible for her to live somewhat independently right now. And the implicit lesson I got from her that partners and spouses were never to be relied upon is the only reason I can (barely) afford the large regular infusions of cash that actually, low-key, maintain her retirement lifestyle.
These don't seem like things I can say to her but I wonder if she ever thinks of it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:23 PM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
My mother spent most of my life bitterly lamenting that my father's feckless job-holding record forced her into full-time work. But those decades of full-time work and social security contributions are the only thing making it possible for her to live somewhat independently right now. And the implicit lesson I got from her that partners and spouses were never to be relied upon is the only reason I can (barely) afford the large regular infusions of cash that actually, low-key, maintain her retirement lifestyle.
These don't seem like things I can say to her but I wonder if she ever thinks of it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:23 PM on November 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
Of course, the above doesn't account for my CPP contributions, which may or may not be torn to shreds and invested in a bunch of fossil fuel companies if the current premier has her way.
my friend if we let her get her way on this, we deserve whatever happens
posted by elkevelvet at 3:27 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
my friend if we let her get her way on this, we deserve whatever happens
posted by elkevelvet at 3:27 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ha ha ha retirement, what a concept and a fairly recent one, to almost all cultures and populations. Our agrarian, merchant, peasant and slave ancestors worked until they died, and I expected to do the same. Nonetheless, I did everything right. Saved assiduously, didn't have those pricey offspring, lived well under my means, had a successful tech career, and then wham! Right in my prime, I discovered I have a deadly genetic mutation trying to kill me. I haven't been able to work in 9 years. Staying alive is quite the job unto itself for me.
However, one of my better hedges against the uncertainty of the future was buying a rundown old farm and moving there. At least I will always have some food, for me and to share. We have a good well on a good aquifer, solar powered, and I am fine living on eggs, fruits and veggies if it comes to that. I hope it doesn't though.
I like to think that there are other forms of wealth besides money. I traded some rose plants I grew for fresh caught crab today. Knowing and liking my neighbors is a whole wonderful web of mutual support. As we all fall into the difficulties of old age in our own ways, I hope more of this kind of true local community support comes back into everyone's life, for it's pretty great. Doesn't cover health insurance though.
posted by birdsongster at 3:39 PM on November 20, 2023 [20 favorites]
However, one of my better hedges against the uncertainty of the future was buying a rundown old farm and moving there. At least I will always have some food, for me and to share. We have a good well on a good aquifer, solar powered, and I am fine living on eggs, fruits and veggies if it comes to that. I hope it doesn't though.
I like to think that there are other forms of wealth besides money. I traded some rose plants I grew for fresh caught crab today. Knowing and liking my neighbors is a whole wonderful web of mutual support. As we all fall into the difficulties of old age in our own ways, I hope more of this kind of true local community support comes back into everyone's life, for it's pretty great. Doesn't cover health insurance though.
posted by birdsongster at 3:39 PM on November 20, 2023 [20 favorites]
My entire life we've basically been told all our social security will go to current old people then and be gone by the time we could possibly use it. The notion of a pension is almost offensive to me if only because of that knowledge me and my kind will never have such a thing, yet through one way or the other will be funding those who do. It can feel like the past is stealing from you to support themselves after a life of not having to work as hard or as much for a tenth in return. I've no retirement plan and 80% of my savings account is the pitiful few thousands I got from my car being totaled by a drunk driver while I sat in my bedroom.
Ultimately planning for retirement is also a gamble, there's a thousand ways to die and dying comfortably in old age is not a realistic option for those in my imposed caste. I hate to be a crab in a bucket but sometimes not everyone is in the bucket and of course you'll want to snip the fingers coming to eat you.
posted by GoblinHoney at 3:41 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ultimately planning for retirement is also a gamble, there's a thousand ways to die and dying comfortably in old age is not a realistic option for those in my imposed caste. I hate to be a crab in a bucket but sometimes not everyone is in the bucket and of course you'll want to snip the fingers coming to eat you.
posted by GoblinHoney at 3:41 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
You don't have to worry about birth rates if you just allow in more young immigrants. But for some reason we don't want that. Huh.
That fails to work by 2080, because the population sinks will outnumber the population sources. You've only kicked the problem down the road by a few generations.
posted by DetriusXii at 3:41 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
That fails to work by 2080, because the population sinks will outnumber the population sources. You've only kicked the problem down the road by a few generations.
posted by DetriusXii at 3:41 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
In Canada we have a plan called Freedom 55, for people who can retire at that age.
ahahaha - I mean obviously "don't live in ludicrously expensive cities" is the answer to this, but I expect to have another 15-20 years on my mortgage at that point still
posted by Jon Mitchell at 3:43 PM on November 20, 2023
ahahaha - I mean obviously "don't live in ludicrously expensive cities" is the answer to this, but I expect to have another 15-20 years on my mortgage at that point still
posted by Jon Mitchell at 3:43 PM on November 20, 2023
My guess is that not having money to pass down to you and your sister is one of his biggest regrets. He probably comes from an era and social group where having money to pass on to the children is the thing that ensures they stay in the middle class or even improve their position, and he is acutely aware he failed to secure this future for you. I think he is saying that to you from a position of pain and shame.
Oh, I assure you this is not the case. My stepmother is never going to let us have anything from him; she's made that clear. And frankly, I would have preferred he'd been part of my life as a kid instead.
posted by Kitteh at 3:50 PM on November 20, 2023
Oh, I assure you this is not the case. My stepmother is never going to let us have anything from him; she's made that clear. And frankly, I would have preferred he'd been part of my life as a kid instead.
posted by Kitteh at 3:50 PM on November 20, 2023
I've always assumed that the retirement calculators that say "You need $X million to retire!! You're running behind!!" were just sales tools for financial advisors. In short: "Send me your money".
The assumption that is baked into so many of the "do you have enough?" retirement calculators that I see (including the ones on the portal of my work's 401k provider) that irks me the most is the assumption that you will need 80% of your current income in retirement. There's no way that assumption works for many or most people -- if you are in the fortunate cohort that is earning a ton of money, you can live on a lot less than 80% of that, especially once you don't have any work-related expenses. Or, if you are like the bulk of workers and not really earning enough right now, on 80% of that you are just further under water.
That fails to work by 2080, because the population sinks will outnumber the population sources. You've only kicked the problem down the road by a few generations.
Maybe I'm simpleminded, but making things work well for a few more generations seems like a massive success to me.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:51 PM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
The assumption that is baked into so many of the "do you have enough?" retirement calculators that I see (including the ones on the portal of my work's 401k provider) that irks me the most is the assumption that you will need 80% of your current income in retirement. There's no way that assumption works for many or most people -- if you are in the fortunate cohort that is earning a ton of money, you can live on a lot less than 80% of that, especially once you don't have any work-related expenses. Or, if you are like the bulk of workers and not really earning enough right now, on 80% of that you are just further under water.
That fails to work by 2080, because the population sinks will outnumber the population sources. You've only kicked the problem down the road by a few generations.
Maybe I'm simpleminded, but making things work well for a few more generations seems like a massive success to me.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:51 PM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
Maybe I'm simpleminded, but making things work well for a few more generations seems like a massive success to me.
I dunno. When "making things work" for a few more generations requires sticking with exponential growth... I dunno, the math just seems like it won't work out.
And when it all depends on poor countries continuously giving up their most ambitious, hardest-working citizens to serve the retirement needs of rich-country citizens... that part doesn't seem sustainable *or* just.
posted by clawsoon at 4:23 PM on November 20, 2023
I dunno. When "making things work" for a few more generations requires sticking with exponential growth... I dunno, the math just seems like it won't work out.
And when it all depends on poor countries continuously giving up their most ambitious, hardest-working citizens to serve the retirement needs of rich-country citizens... that part doesn't seem sustainable *or* just.
posted by clawsoon at 4:23 PM on November 20, 2023
Who is assuming or requiring *exponetial* growth?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:29 PM on November 20, 2023
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:29 PM on November 20, 2023
Who is assuming or requiring *exponetial* growth?
Anybody who talks about a growth rate percentage that they think is reasonable or good is talking about exponential growth.
What's your preferred non-exponential growth model?
posted by clawsoon at 4:33 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Anybody who talks about a growth rate percentage that they think is reasonable or good is talking about exponential growth.
What's your preferred non-exponential growth model?
posted by clawsoon at 4:33 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
I sometimes find myself torn between saving for retirement and wondering if financial systems will exist in a meaningful form in 30+ years when I reach retirement age.
I try the best I can to put money into my retirement accounts anyway, since I figure that if society does survive recognizably it will be useful, and I'm not sure that financial planning for societal breakdown due to climate chaos is something one can coherently do. (I am the opposite of doomerist about this - I don't think it's inevitable and am active in climate activism to try to make it less likely. But I have to be honest with myself that it's a real risk.)
I'm not sure how coherently any of us can plan beyond a 10-20 year horizon at this point. I hope that if the financial system does survive in a recognizable form, the political tides will turn such that we can implement a less-broken social safety net. But I truly don't know how we get there from here.
posted by beryllium at 4:39 PM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
I try the best I can to put money into my retirement accounts anyway, since I figure that if society does survive recognizably it will be useful, and I'm not sure that financial planning for societal breakdown due to climate chaos is something one can coherently do. (I am the opposite of doomerist about this - I don't think it's inevitable and am active in climate activism to try to make it less likely. But I have to be honest with myself that it's a real risk.)
I'm not sure how coherently any of us can plan beyond a 10-20 year horizon at this point. I hope that if the financial system does survive in a recognizable form, the political tides will turn such that we can implement a less-broken social safety net. But I truly don't know how we get there from here.
posted by beryllium at 4:39 PM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
If you work fewer than 35 years, they use $0 for every year you didn't work when calculating your benefit amount.
What a fucking racket. Apparently Social Security tells me that because of this, my retirement benefit at 67 would be a whopping...1379$ per month. Oooh! I'd better not spend all *that* in one place!
posted by corb at 4:42 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
What a fucking racket. Apparently Social Security tells me that because of this, my retirement benefit at 67 would be a whopping...1379$ per month. Oooh! I'd better not spend all *that* in one place!
posted by corb at 4:42 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
You're lucky, I put the max into US SS between '84 and '04 and will never see a penny of it - I'm a non-US citizen who's also a non resident - my partner's a US citizen so if if she knocks me off she can claim it ......
posted by mbo at 4:48 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mbo at 4:48 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
GenX here. I've worked my whole life in low-paying jobs: used bookstore worker, humanities prof in the South, nonprofit, now independent scholar. That's mean lower incomes and poor retirement funding, even with advanced degrees.
I've long assumed I would work until I died.
But I have also *hoped* for that. See, that way I can keep providing for my family and then exit swiftly with little cost. My dread is being disabled so that I can't work and start racking up the bills.
I'm healthy now and have healthy habits (diet, exercise, etc). My parents lived into their 90s. So I'm betting my life - literally - that I'll be productive for some decades.
Otherwise, well, I do fantasize about my insurance payout for the family.
America, we're #1!
posted by doctornemo at 4:51 PM on November 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
I've long assumed I would work until I died.
But I have also *hoped* for that. See, that way I can keep providing for my family and then exit swiftly with little cost. My dread is being disabled so that I can't work and start racking up the bills.
I'm healthy now and have healthy habits (diet, exercise, etc). My parents lived into their 90s. So I'm betting my life - literally - that I'll be productive for some decades.
Otherwise, well, I do fantasize about my insurance payout for the family.
America, we're #1!
posted by doctornemo at 4:51 PM on November 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
Like, I won't see any of my SS here when I reach retirement age, as I no longer pay into it by being employed in the US.
posted by Kitteh at 5:06 PM on November 20, 2023
posted by Kitteh at 5:06 PM on November 20, 2023
A comment from upthread I feel the need to address:
I fear the period preceding it where I've become too decrepit/addled to be employable nor take care of myself. At that point I may find a handy ice floe and head out to sea, to spare my son the financial and emotional expense of watching me waste away in a hospital or nursing home.
I see these comments a lot on MeFi, and they're really starting to make me angry. I can't help but read this as "I don't see any value in the lives of elderly or disabled people, especially if they need the kind of help a nursing home provides. I would just kill myself." To anyone who is already old, disabled, or a nursing home resident, this has to just sound like "You're a burden. Kill yourself." PLEASE stop posting comments like this, everybody? If you're nervous about your future dependence and disability, just say THAT.
We had a MetaTalk thread and everything.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:10 PM on November 20, 2023 [24 favorites]
I fear the period preceding it where I've become too decrepit/addled to be employable nor take care of myself. At that point I may find a handy ice floe and head out to sea, to spare my son the financial and emotional expense of watching me waste away in a hospital or nursing home.
I see these comments a lot on MeFi, and they're really starting to make me angry. I can't help but read this as "I don't see any value in the lives of elderly or disabled people, especially if they need the kind of help a nursing home provides. I would just kill myself." To anyone who is already old, disabled, or a nursing home resident, this has to just sound like "You're a burden. Kill yourself." PLEASE stop posting comments like this, everybody? If you're nervous about your future dependence and disability, just say THAT.
We had a MetaTalk thread and everything.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:10 PM on November 20, 2023 [24 favorites]
I feel like that substantially misinterprets the intent of my comment, but I don't want to turn this into a derail so I'll just say I hear you and leave it at that.
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:17 PM on November 20, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:17 PM on November 20, 2023 [17 favorites]
Feels like this is an inevitable outcome of a system that prioritizes concentration of capital over taking care of everyone.
posted by allium cepa at 5:33 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by allium cepa at 5:33 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
beryllium: I try the best I can to put money into my retirement accounts anyway, since I figure that if society does survive recognizably it will be useful
It's the modern version of Pascal's Wager!
posted by wenestvedt at 5:40 PM on November 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
It's the modern version of Pascal's Wager!
posted by wenestvedt at 5:40 PM on November 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
My entire life we've basically been told all our social security will go to current old people then and be gone by the time we could possibly use it.
Indeed we have. The propaganda campaign to convince us all of this has been tremendously successful, as witnessed by the fact that people across the political spectrum repeat this fatalistic, cynical statement over and over... including multiple times in this thread.
The date by which Social Security was supposed "go bankrupt" has come and gone repeatedly over the last few decades... like many other failed prophecies of apocalypse.
One would think more people would start to figure out that maybe it isn't going to bankrupt after all. Minor tweaks to the system have staved off all of its previously predicted death spirals. And credible experts have affirmed that it will likely continue to do fine, with further periodic tuneups.
But people do love their gloom and doom!
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 6:49 PM on November 20, 2023 [19 favorites]
Indeed we have. The propaganda campaign to convince us all of this has been tremendously successful, as witnessed by the fact that people across the political spectrum repeat this fatalistic, cynical statement over and over... including multiple times in this thread.
The date by which Social Security was supposed "go bankrupt" has come and gone repeatedly over the last few decades... like many other failed prophecies of apocalypse.
One would think more people would start to figure out that maybe it isn't going to bankrupt after all. Minor tweaks to the system have staved off all of its previously predicted death spirals. And credible experts have affirmed that it will likely continue to do fine, with further periodic tuneups.
But people do love their gloom and doom!
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 6:49 PM on November 20, 2023 [19 favorites]
I am the fabled grasshopper (although a hard-working one) to your disciplined ant. I didn't quite ignore the onset of winter, but I thought it wouldn't be quite so soon nor quite so cold, and that was not entirely unjustified.
angiep, that is a beautiful and devastating statement of the situation, and one that I strongly identify with. I'm not in as drastic a situation as you, at the moment, but that could all change literally overnight. There are decisions that I made that I wouldn't make again, but second-guessing myself (especially since some of those choices seemed completely reasonable at the time) is as futile as wishing that I'd bought Apple stock with my quite-small inheritance in 1982. As it is, I'm just hoping that I can continue to work until about 70 or so.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:30 PM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
angiep, that is a beautiful and devastating statement of the situation, and one that I strongly identify with. I'm not in as drastic a situation as you, at the moment, but that could all change literally overnight. There are decisions that I made that I wouldn't make again, but second-guessing myself (especially since some of those choices seemed completely reasonable at the time) is as futile as wishing that I'd bought Apple stock with my quite-small inheritance in 1982. As it is, I'm just hoping that I can continue to work until about 70 or so.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:30 PM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
My SIL is in a Medicaid home in Florida. I think her life is incredibly valuable; we have a rich relationship that is utterly unique. But the state of Florida, Medicaid, and the millionaire who owns her nursing home, think she’s most valuable as a generator of revenue.
People don’t just dread nursing homes because they hate and devalue old people. They dread nursing homes bc some of them are literally hell on earth. We try to visit at least twice a week bc otherwise they will just kill her. Really. She’s already been hospitalized 3x for uti that progressed to nephritis, *just for not having her diaper changed timely, ever.*
Feel free to flag this as a derail, but have you been to a Medicaid home in Florida? They’re deliberately understaffed. People die of neglect. Residents are encouraged to get family members to do services and buy supplies that Medicaid and staff are contracted to provide.
My SIL calls me every few weeks and says “They’re out of diapers!” They tell her they need us to bring diapers, wash her hair, etc. At this point, I call the administrator and say “How about some diapers?” and then alarms go off, someone comes down with the key to the storage container, whatever.
I do go wash her hair bc her CNA is so overwhelmed from not making enough money that she can’t afford to leave the partner who beats her, so she just throws a wash rag at SIL and says “clean yourself; I’m too busy.” SIL won’t complain bc 1. retaliation and 2. she doesn’t want to get her CNA fired bc she’s survived an abusive relationship too.
When I first saw this post, I was gonna joke “I’ve got my Medicaid home picked out!” bc that’s the kind of money I’m gonna have at that point. I do dread it. There is a lot of ableism in the wild here on the internet, but dreading your fate in a nursing home ain’t it.
posted by toodleydoodley at 7:41 PM on November 20, 2023 [28 favorites]
People don’t just dread nursing homes because they hate and devalue old people. They dread nursing homes bc some of them are literally hell on earth. We try to visit at least twice a week bc otherwise they will just kill her. Really. She’s already been hospitalized 3x for uti that progressed to nephritis, *just for not having her diaper changed timely, ever.*
Feel free to flag this as a derail, but have you been to a Medicaid home in Florida? They’re deliberately understaffed. People die of neglect. Residents are encouraged to get family members to do services and buy supplies that Medicaid and staff are contracted to provide.
My SIL calls me every few weeks and says “They’re out of diapers!” They tell her they need us to bring diapers, wash her hair, etc. At this point, I call the administrator and say “How about some diapers?” and then alarms go off, someone comes down with the key to the storage container, whatever.
I do go wash her hair bc her CNA is so overwhelmed from not making enough money that she can’t afford to leave the partner who beats her, so she just throws a wash rag at SIL and says “clean yourself; I’m too busy.” SIL won’t complain bc 1. retaliation and 2. she doesn’t want to get her CNA fired bc she’s survived an abusive relationship too.
When I first saw this post, I was gonna joke “I’ve got my Medicaid home picked out!” bc that’s the kind of money I’m gonna have at that point. I do dread it. There is a lot of ableism in the wild here on the internet, but dreading your fate in a nursing home ain’t it.
posted by toodleydoodley at 7:41 PM on November 20, 2023 [28 favorites]
that irks me the most is the assumption that you will need 80% of your current income in retirement.
Won't we need like 80 TIMES our current income, or something like that, for medical bills?
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:45 PM on November 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
Won't we need like 80 TIMES our current income, or something like that, for medical bills?
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:45 PM on November 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
Depends on if we’re talking about Canada or the US.
posted by Selena777 at 8:36 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 8:36 PM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I learnt how to solve a rubix cube this week (8 year old son decided rubix cubes were his new life passion and I needed to teach him / reset his cube on demand). I feel retirement planning in the US is similar - you just need to follow 7 steps with different algorithms perfectly for 40 years, without any mistake, and then it should all be…no hang on that didn’t work, ok rotate clockwise and then up, left, down, right…wait why is my SS projected payment so low…blue, red, orange, oh for fucks sake why is my 401k underperforming so badly….yellow cross on top and then…well shit…start again.
I should be able to have some sort of retirement, but my algorithm to do so now involves becoming a US citizen to access my SS benefit from offshore, hoping the NZD v USD exchange rate remains firmly weighted to the US being the much stronger currency, and the (2030 or 2034) Winter Olympics being awarded to Salt Lake and my house price goes like a rocket being close to the ski jump venue. Simple algorithm really - especially if you have one of those retirement plans where you can peel off the stickers and move them around a bit.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:11 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
I should be able to have some sort of retirement, but my algorithm to do so now involves becoming a US citizen to access my SS benefit from offshore, hoping the NZD v USD exchange rate remains firmly weighted to the US being the much stronger currency, and the (2030 or 2034) Winter Olympics being awarded to Salt Lake and my house price goes like a rocket being close to the ski jump venue. Simple algorithm really - especially if you have one of those retirement plans where you can peel off the stickers and move them around a bit.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:11 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Won't we need like 80 TIMES our current income, or something like that, for medical bills?
I recall reading some claim that for the vast majority of us, 90% of our lifetime medical spending will come in our final year. This was voted by an American, of course. In Canada I am only slightly less worried as there is a non-zero chance of a Prime Minister Poilievre in our future.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:17 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I recall reading some claim that for the vast majority of us, 90% of our lifetime medical spending will come in our final year. This was voted by an American, of course. In Canada I am only slightly less worried as there is a non-zero chance of a Prime Minister Poilievre in our future.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:17 PM on November 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Indeed we have. The propaganda campaign to convince us all of this has been tremendously successful, as witnessed by the fact that people across the political spectrum repeat this fatalistic, cynical statement over and over... including multiple times in this thread.
Totally a right wing talking point with the agenda of getting people on-board with not paying into SS now because "it will be gone later", therefore being a self fulfilling prophecy and saving their corporate sponsors some very minor amount of money.
posted by Literaryhero at 12:03 AM on November 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
Totally a right wing talking point with the agenda of getting people on-board with not paying into SS now because "it will be gone later", therefore being a self fulfilling prophecy and saving their corporate sponsors some very minor amount of money.
posted by Literaryhero at 12:03 AM on November 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
Yeah, it's pretty interesting to see how people on the left embrace this lie, like there's something satisfying in being cynical. Even though it's a) complete bullshit, and b) the bullshit is intended to undermine trust in the program so the right can "privatize" it, which they claim will be "better".
I wish people would stop falling for this.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:32 AM on November 21, 2023 [19 favorites]
I wish people would stop falling for this.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:32 AM on November 21, 2023 [19 favorites]
The assumption that is baked into so many retirement calculators that irks me the most is the assumption that you will need 80% of your current income in retirement.
I think a large part of the 80% figure is an unstated assumption that over decades into the future your pension payouts may fail to keep up with inflation. What starts out as 80% of your real salary in 2023 might only grow to be 40% of an equivalent salary in 2043.
posted by Lanark at 1:39 AM on November 21, 2023
I think a large part of the 80% figure is an unstated assumption that over decades into the future your pension payouts may fail to keep up with inflation. What starts out as 80% of your real salary in 2023 might only grow to be 40% of an equivalent salary in 2043.
posted by Lanark at 1:39 AM on November 21, 2023
My dad worked into his seventies. He was a programmer and extremely nervous about having enough money, even though they did. He was forced into retirement by some health problems that had been simmering, and not three weeks after he left, he learned they were already at a full boil. He'd retired only to take on the new, uncompensated full time job of being terminally ill. He passed just over a year later. I don’t know what the best path is for people, but I don’t recommend his.
posted by eirias at 2:55 AM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by eirias at 2:55 AM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
My most recent favorite "life involves randomness" bit is in John Wick:
Marcus: There's no rhyme or reason to this life. It's days like today scattered among the rest.
John Wick: Are you sure?
Marcus: Don't blame yourself.
There is some truth there. I don't think we should blame ourselves for the inevitable mistakes and poor choices that accrete over time. I've done "dumb" financial things in every decade of my life, typically for what were good reasons at the time. In retrospect, some were better reasons than others.
I also don't see too much value in fretting, having watched too many people fret as they aged, doing no good for themselves in the process. Every goddamn Blue-Zone-holistic-living-wellness-self-help-whatever has a heavy dose of "like, be cool," "stop and smell the roses," "find joy wherever you are," etc. in it, and I don't think it's an accident.
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:54 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Marcus: There's no rhyme or reason to this life. It's days like today scattered among the rest.
John Wick: Are you sure?
Marcus: Don't blame yourself.
There is some truth there. I don't think we should blame ourselves for the inevitable mistakes and poor choices that accrete over time. I've done "dumb" financial things in every decade of my life, typically for what were good reasons at the time. In retrospect, some were better reasons than others.
I also don't see too much value in fretting, having watched too many people fret as they aged, doing no good for themselves in the process. Every goddamn Blue-Zone-holistic-living-wellness-self-help-whatever has a heavy dose of "like, be cool," "stop and smell the roses," "find joy wherever you are," etc. in it, and I don't think it's an accident.
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:54 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
My dad worked into his seventies.
My dad is still working, at 78. Mostly because he wants to. His job is no stress (taking care of farm animals). He actually makes more money on social security than he did working. Mom is a retired school teacher. She quit the day she was eligible and second guessed to assist on some test days, and then noped out on that after 2 years.
My inlaws retired a long time ago, and went shopping and watched tv and lost most of their retirement in schemes. Retirement looks different for different people.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:26 AM on November 21, 2023
My dad is still working, at 78. Mostly because he wants to. His job is no stress (taking care of farm animals). He actually makes more money on social security than he did working. Mom is a retired school teacher. She quit the day she was eligible and second guessed to assist on some test days, and then noped out on that after 2 years.
My inlaws retired a long time ago, and went shopping and watched tv and lost most of their retirement in schemes. Retirement looks different for different people.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:26 AM on November 21, 2023
They dread nursing homes bc some of them are literally hell on earth
Fine, then just say "I dread terrible nursing homes and am afraid of ending up in one" instead of "I'm probably going to kill myself when I get really old and disabled so that I'm not a burden to my family."
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:31 AM on November 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
Fine, then just say "I dread terrible nursing homes and am afraid of ending up in one" instead of "I'm probably going to kill myself when I get really old and disabled so that I'm not a burden to my family."
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:31 AM on November 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
>>Won't we need like 80 TIMES our current income, or something like that, for medical bills?
>Depends on if we’re talking about Canada or the US.
While the author is Canadian and is describing a situation where healthcare itself is not generally a financial stressor for people, the situation that seems to make her the most concerned, in my reading of the piece, is expensive end of life care:
The National Institute on Ageing report says that, by 2050, care in one’s own home will cost up to $25,000 a month; care in a retirement home or residence could be as much as $10,000 a month. Those options will be unaffordable for most Canadians. Meanwhile, the number of people caring for family members at home will decrease sharply. Between now and 2050, Canada is expected to have 30 percent fewer voluntary caregivers, according to Sinha. Paid health care workers will not fill the gap: Canada’s universal health care system “was never designed to cover the provision of long-term care services,” including home and community care nursing, Sinha said. Long-term care insurance (LTCI) is now mandatory in Germany, South Korea, and Japan. Here in Canada, home-based care doesn’t even cover prescription medications. According to that 2019 Canadian Financial Capability Survey, a third of Canadians also worry they won’t be able to afford health care costs as they age, and rightly so.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:47 AM on November 21, 2023
>Depends on if we’re talking about Canada or the US.
While the author is Canadian and is describing a situation where healthcare itself is not generally a financial stressor for people, the situation that seems to make her the most concerned, in my reading of the piece, is expensive end of life care:
The National Institute on Ageing report says that, by 2050, care in one’s own home will cost up to $25,000 a month; care in a retirement home or residence could be as much as $10,000 a month. Those options will be unaffordable for most Canadians. Meanwhile, the number of people caring for family members at home will decrease sharply. Between now and 2050, Canada is expected to have 30 percent fewer voluntary caregivers, according to Sinha. Paid health care workers will not fill the gap: Canada’s universal health care system “was never designed to cover the provision of long-term care services,” including home and community care nursing, Sinha said. Long-term care insurance (LTCI) is now mandatory in Germany, South Korea, and Japan. Here in Canada, home-based care doesn’t even cover prescription medications. According to that 2019 Canadian Financial Capability Survey, a third of Canadians also worry they won’t be able to afford health care costs as they age, and rightly so.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:47 AM on November 21, 2023
[what] irks me the most is the assumption that you will need 80% of your current income in retirement. There's no way that assumption works for many or most people -- if you are in the fortunate cohort that is earning a ton of money, you can live on a lot less than 80% of that, especially once you don't have any work-related expenses. Or, if you are like the bulk of workers and not really earning enough right now, on 80% of that you are just further under water.
The thing is that this 80% is assumed as what you need to maintain your current quality/standard of living. The problem, as you rightly point out, is that if you're current standard is already pretty bad then 80% is just maintaining a bad situation -- or possibly making it worse because that 80% tends to assume home ownership and a mortgage that has been paid off before you retire. If you're renting, you're worse off right from the get-go, because these calculators seem not to account for that.
posted by asnider at 7:51 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
The thing is that this 80% is assumed as what you need to maintain your current quality/standard of living. The problem, as you rightly point out, is that if you're current standard is already pretty bad then 80% is just maintaining a bad situation -- or possibly making it worse because that 80% tends to assume home ownership and a mortgage that has been paid off before you retire. If you're renting, you're worse off right from the get-go, because these calculators seem not to account for that.
posted by asnider at 7:51 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
The 80% rule assumes:
1) You have been saving for retirement, and now you're in a decumulation phase not an accumulation phase, so take that off the table
2) Without W2 income, many people pay much less in taxes in retirement than they did while working, even at the same standard of living.
But it's just a rule of thumb, like saying you shouldn't spend more than x% of your income on housing. It doesn't make sense in all circumstances.
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:13 AM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
1) You have been saving for retirement, and now you're in a decumulation phase not an accumulation phase, so take that off the table
2) Without W2 income, many people pay much less in taxes in retirement than they did while working, even at the same standard of living.
But it's just a rule of thumb, like saying you shouldn't spend more than x% of your income on housing. It doesn't make sense in all circumstances.
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:13 AM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
my friend if we let her get her way on this, we deserve whatever happens
I know what you mean, but I have to reject this attitude. If I try hard and fail, I don't deserve the bullshit that's going to happen as a result. If I happily go along with it, or just passively allow it to happen, sure. But if I fight the good fight and still lose, I don't "deserve" the negative outcome.
Just like "you get what you vote for." Well, sure, this is collectively true (but only sort of, because there are all sort of issues that make our representative democracy not actually representative) but, again, if I didn't vote for these clowns, I am not getting what I asked for.
But, yes, yes, we live in a society...
posted by asnider at 8:19 AM on November 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
I know what you mean, but I have to reject this attitude. If I try hard and fail, I don't deserve the bullshit that's going to happen as a result. If I happily go along with it, or just passively allow it to happen, sure. But if I fight the good fight and still lose, I don't "deserve" the negative outcome.
Just like "you get what you vote for." Well, sure, this is collectively true (but only sort of, because there are all sort of issues that make our representative democracy not actually representative) but, again, if I didn't vote for these clowns, I am not getting what I asked for.
But, yes, yes, we live in a society...
posted by asnider at 8:19 AM on November 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
There's a scandal at my state university where it's been demonstrated that for about 20 years now, new faculty have been manipulated into taking the 401k-style retirement savings program instead of the state pension program, which is significantly better. A *lot* of people were lied to, including me, about this, but there's no recourse, because nobody can switch retirement programs without a law being passed by my kookoo-MAGA state legislature, and that will never happen.
Two Fridays ago, at Yet Another Meeting, people were arguing about this, and someone asked my opinion, and I'd run out of blood sugar and spoons and just said, "Who cares? I'm going to die in the climate wars like the rest of Gen X anyway", and that was kind of a mood killer.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:31 AM on November 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
Two Fridays ago, at Yet Another Meeting, people were arguing about this, and someone asked my opinion, and I'd run out of blood sugar and spoons and just said, "Who cares? I'm going to die in the climate wars like the rest of Gen X anyway", and that was kind of a mood killer.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:31 AM on November 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
The 80% rule assumes:
1) You have been saving for retirement, and now you're in a decumulation phase not an accumulation phase, so take that off the table
2) Without W2 income, many people pay much less in taxes in retirement than they did while working, even at the same standard of living.
But it's just a rule of thumb, like saying you shouldn't spend more than x% of your income on housing. It doesn't make sense in all circumstances.
In fairness, I think that it's a rule that works pretty well for people in the solid middle, the kinds of jobs that used to have pensions (and in some cases, like state employees in this state, still do). Like, 80% of a middle-tier income is probably a decent rule of thumb and would probably replicate having an old-school pension plus some modest savings. However, if you are above or below that solid middle (which is a category that gets smaller all the time), then it just isn't all that applicable.
But, all those "are you saving enough?" articles are written mostly for the people in that middle category. Below that, there just isn't any realistic way to save enough, and the further above it you get, the more surplus there will be anyway.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:42 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
1) You have been saving for retirement, and now you're in a decumulation phase not an accumulation phase, so take that off the table
2) Without W2 income, many people pay much less in taxes in retirement than they did while working, even at the same standard of living.
But it's just a rule of thumb, like saying you shouldn't spend more than x% of your income on housing. It doesn't make sense in all circumstances.
In fairness, I think that it's a rule that works pretty well for people in the solid middle, the kinds of jobs that used to have pensions (and in some cases, like state employees in this state, still do). Like, 80% of a middle-tier income is probably a decent rule of thumb and would probably replicate having an old-school pension plus some modest savings. However, if you are above or below that solid middle (which is a category that gets smaller all the time), then it just isn't all that applicable.
But, all those "are you saving enough?" articles are written mostly for the people in that middle category. Below that, there just isn't any realistic way to save enough, and the further above it you get, the more surplus there will be anyway.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:42 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
I can't help but read this as "I don't see any value in the lives of elderly or disabled people, especially if they need the kind of help a nursing home provides. I would just kill myself." To anyone who is already old, disabled, or a nursing home resident, this has to just sound like "You're a burden. Kill yourself." PLEASE stop posting comments like this, everybody? If you're nervous about your future dependence and disability, just say THAT.
At the same time, I don't know how we can have an honest conversation about retirement without acknowledging that this belief is a really pervasive and common one and is also built on some of the absolute horror of the systems and predatory capitalism and terrible healthcare that exists at the end of life.
I am already disabled. My partner is also already disabled, but he's one of the people who is firmly resolved that he is going to kill himself once he gets to a certain stage of disability. I don't know how far in the future that date is - no one can know how fast it will progress. It's not a throwaway joke online, he is entirely serious about it. He doesn't want to financially burden his family, and we have arguments all the time about whether or not it will burden me to care for him personally if he reaches that stage of disability. I say it won't - that I love and value him and want to keep him around and won't mind. He says it will. We argue about it constantly.
One of the things that comes up constantly in those arguments is the fact that our healthcare doesn't pay for an at-home care nurse. An at-home care nurse that we didn't have to pay for out of savings would resolve the problem and make my partner not want to kill himself once he reaches the stage of disability he has decided is too far.
So in my view, society has already decided that it doesn't see any value in the lives of elderly and disabled people, because it doesn't want to pay for the kind of skilled nursing that keeps them out of nursing homes in the first place. There are very few people who actually need to be in nursing homes rather than have nursing in-home - the reason they go to nursing homes is because they're cheaper, and they're cheaper because they warehouse the patients and, as said upthread, treat them pretty badly.
posted by corb at 8:44 AM on November 21, 2023 [27 favorites]
At the same time, I don't know how we can have an honest conversation about retirement without acknowledging that this belief is a really pervasive and common one and is also built on some of the absolute horror of the systems and predatory capitalism and terrible healthcare that exists at the end of life.
I am already disabled. My partner is also already disabled, but he's one of the people who is firmly resolved that he is going to kill himself once he gets to a certain stage of disability. I don't know how far in the future that date is - no one can know how fast it will progress. It's not a throwaway joke online, he is entirely serious about it. He doesn't want to financially burden his family, and we have arguments all the time about whether or not it will burden me to care for him personally if he reaches that stage of disability. I say it won't - that I love and value him and want to keep him around and won't mind. He says it will. We argue about it constantly.
One of the things that comes up constantly in those arguments is the fact that our healthcare doesn't pay for an at-home care nurse. An at-home care nurse that we didn't have to pay for out of savings would resolve the problem and make my partner not want to kill himself once he reaches the stage of disability he has decided is too far.
So in my view, society has already decided that it doesn't see any value in the lives of elderly and disabled people, because it doesn't want to pay for the kind of skilled nursing that keeps them out of nursing homes in the first place. There are very few people who actually need to be in nursing homes rather than have nursing in-home - the reason they go to nursing homes is because they're cheaper, and they're cheaper because they warehouse the patients and, as said upthread, treat them pretty badly.
posted by corb at 8:44 AM on November 21, 2023 [27 favorites]
Universal Basic Income. This would help reward the family and close friends who currently provide unpaid support to seniors who are still in their home (eg my Mom). Hopefully this type of support would then become more common.
I'd also like to see some kind of recognition and support for co-op housing where a few seniors are supported by other residents, and they in turn help with childcare, or cooking/baking, etc as their condition permits.
New ideas required.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:55 AM on November 21, 2023 [14 favorites]
I'd also like to see some kind of recognition and support for co-op housing where a few seniors are supported by other residents, and they in turn help with childcare, or cooking/baking, etc as their condition permits.
New ideas required.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:55 AM on November 21, 2023 [14 favorites]
[Society] doesn't want to pay for the kind of skilled nursing that keeps them out of nursing homes in the first place.
I don't see why we need to keep people out of nursing homes anymore than we need to keep kids out of daycare. Caregiving is extremely labor intensive. It's more efficient in group settings, requiring less labor from each caregiver. Also, in centralized locations, multiple caregivers can then share responsibilities, taking turns and trade off, taking sick days when needed, and go home at the end of the day for a respite. Meanwhile the person receiving care has the opportunity to socialize, an environment completely built around their needs, a community where their condition is normalized, and is not completely dependent on a single person (which is always a situation ripe for abuse.) Nursing homes are not the problem.
BAD nursing homes are a problem... mostly a problem of resource distribution. (Aside - I think the argument upthread that money is just pretend and can be invented as necessary to pay for elder care is pretty silly, because ultimately the issue isn't who has money, it's who has food, space, energy, and help. Money is just a proxy for those still-finite resources. Right now we're not allocating enough resources to the elderly.)
All of us who don't die young are going to end up old and disabled and needing more help than any one person can or should provide. There is no shame in that. It's the human condition. And if there aren't enough resources for people in that position, the solution is NOT for people in that position to kill themselves, it's for all of us to advocate for more resources for them (which is to say, one day, us.)
If anyone has private thoughts of suicide related to their own medical condition or poverty or any other circumstances in their lives, I am not here to judge. But that's not what "I would kill myself if I were in THOSE circumstances" is. It's a hypothetical. You're imagining yourself into circumstances that other people are ALREADY EXPERIENCING and announcing that suicide is the only solution.
If the problem is that the elderly don't have enough resources, don't announce "I'm going to kill myself when I get old." Say you're afraid, say you think Medicaid should pay out more to nursing homes, talk to a therapist if you're having suicidal thoughts right now... But please don't do the "I would kill myself if I were that disabled" thing on the internet.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:55 AM on November 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't see why we need to keep people out of nursing homes anymore than we need to keep kids out of daycare. Caregiving is extremely labor intensive. It's more efficient in group settings, requiring less labor from each caregiver. Also, in centralized locations, multiple caregivers can then share responsibilities, taking turns and trade off, taking sick days when needed, and go home at the end of the day for a respite. Meanwhile the person receiving care has the opportunity to socialize, an environment completely built around their needs, a community where their condition is normalized, and is not completely dependent on a single person (which is always a situation ripe for abuse.) Nursing homes are not the problem.
BAD nursing homes are a problem... mostly a problem of resource distribution. (Aside - I think the argument upthread that money is just pretend and can be invented as necessary to pay for elder care is pretty silly, because ultimately the issue isn't who has money, it's who has food, space, energy, and help. Money is just a proxy for those still-finite resources. Right now we're not allocating enough resources to the elderly.)
All of us who don't die young are going to end up old and disabled and needing more help than any one person can or should provide. There is no shame in that. It's the human condition. And if there aren't enough resources for people in that position, the solution is NOT for people in that position to kill themselves, it's for all of us to advocate for more resources for them (which is to say, one day, us.)
If anyone has private thoughts of suicide related to their own medical condition or poverty or any other circumstances in their lives, I am not here to judge. But that's not what "I would kill myself if I were in THOSE circumstances" is. It's a hypothetical. You're imagining yourself into circumstances that other people are ALREADY EXPERIENCING and announcing that suicide is the only solution.
If the problem is that the elderly don't have enough resources, don't announce "I'm going to kill myself when I get old." Say you're afraid, say you think Medicaid should pay out more to nursing homes, talk to a therapist if you're having suicidal thoughts right now... But please don't do the "I would kill myself if I were that disabled" thing on the internet.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:55 AM on November 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Name calling goes against our Content Policy
posted by loup (staff) at 11:49 AM on November 21, 2023
posted by loup (staff) at 11:49 AM on November 21, 2023
A friend of mine is trying to set up a passive income stream for retirement using print-on-demand graphics websites. (Society6 et al.) I truly wonder how many of those will be around in five years, let alone 20+. But I don't have any alternatives to suggest either.
posted by mersen at 12:37 PM on November 21, 2023
posted by mersen at 12:37 PM on November 21, 2023
I had planned and got certified for a possible retirement gig (marine electrics) but once I added up the requirements, especially incorporation and liability insurance, it seemed too much hassle for a few hours a week.
I still have an interest in some part-time work, with the following conditions:
- the role involves using my skillsets, and possibly mentoring
- it's not just mindless labour
- I'm not taking a position from a young person
Demanding, or what? But I think many seniors would want to continue to make contributions under those conditions.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:04 PM on November 21, 2023
I still have an interest in some part-time work, with the following conditions:
- the role involves using my skillsets, and possibly mentoring
- it's not just mindless labour
- I'm not taking a position from a young person
Demanding, or what? But I think many seniors would want to continue to make contributions under those conditions.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:04 PM on November 21, 2023
InflatableKiwi ..... before you go hog wild and become a US Citizen be warned that if you start collecting US SS the NZ IRD will want to tap some or all of that to help pay for your NZ pension - after all if you (like I) have worked in the US for some years and not been kicking taxes in to fund NZ pensions all your life then you've not been paying your share and it's only fair - if I could access my US SS (some countries have pensions agreements with the US, NZ does not) I'd be happy to hand it over to the govt, I'm mostly just mad that I can't
posted by mbo at 1:34 PM on November 21, 2023
posted by mbo at 1:34 PM on November 21, 2023
I don't see why we need to keep people out of nursing homes anymore than we need to keep kids out of daycare.
In some cases, such as the comment you were replying to, family members can provide a lot of the care (without being formally paid), but need help with a few tasks per week or just a little bit per day. That changes the economics of things.
Additionally, daycare for little kids is an “outpatient” program, not a residential program: little kids in daycare go home at the end of the day, where they can have the home environment that they have become accustomed to, and live with their family. That’s very different from a nursing home. Plus, little kids aren’t used to the independence of living at home, haven’t maybe spent decades working in a house and collecting things in their house that have sentimental value, etc. Lots of senior don’t own homes, and something residential (in particular, a nice apartment in an assisted living situation with fixed rent) may in fact be a great option for them. But lots of seniors do own their own homes and will benefit from mental health perspective from being able to remain in their homes longer. And nursing homes tend to isolate seniors away from folks of other ages, which also tends to have negative physical and mental health impacts (all other factors being equal: yes, some seniors don’t have sufficient social connections at home, so in some cases aging in place is the more socially isolating experience. People vary). If you try to recreate all of the positives of aging in place (for many people - again, there is lots of variation, so individual needs will differ), the costs start adding up on the nursing home side and the economic comparison becomes less clear.
Most importantly, if we only look at home care versus nursing home from an economic efficiency viewpoint, we lose a huge piece of the quality of life picture. And once we lose sight of the full quality of life picture, or trade off some quality of life for economic savings (instead of comparing costs for various options that provide the same quality of life and only bringing the economics into it at that point), then the quality of nursing home care provided is likely to remain fairly poor.
There is such a thing as adult daycare, which can be a good option for some families. That would be the actual equivalent to child daycare, not nursing homes.
posted by eviemath at 2:34 PM on November 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
In some cases, such as the comment you were replying to, family members can provide a lot of the care (without being formally paid), but need help with a few tasks per week or just a little bit per day. That changes the economics of things.
Additionally, daycare for little kids is an “outpatient” program, not a residential program: little kids in daycare go home at the end of the day, where they can have the home environment that they have become accustomed to, and live with their family. That’s very different from a nursing home. Plus, little kids aren’t used to the independence of living at home, haven’t maybe spent decades working in a house and collecting things in their house that have sentimental value, etc. Lots of senior don’t own homes, and something residential (in particular, a nice apartment in an assisted living situation with fixed rent) may in fact be a great option for them. But lots of seniors do own their own homes and will benefit from mental health perspective from being able to remain in their homes longer. And nursing homes tend to isolate seniors away from folks of other ages, which also tends to have negative physical and mental health impacts (all other factors being equal: yes, some seniors don’t have sufficient social connections at home, so in some cases aging in place is the more socially isolating experience. People vary). If you try to recreate all of the positives of aging in place (for many people - again, there is lots of variation, so individual needs will differ), the costs start adding up on the nursing home side and the economic comparison becomes less clear.
Most importantly, if we only look at home care versus nursing home from an economic efficiency viewpoint, we lose a huge piece of the quality of life picture. And once we lose sight of the full quality of life picture, or trade off some quality of life for economic savings (instead of comparing costs for various options that provide the same quality of life and only bringing the economics into it at that point), then the quality of nursing home care provided is likely to remain fairly poor.
There is such a thing as adult daycare, which can be a good option for some families. That would be the actual equivalent to child daycare, not nursing homes.
posted by eviemath at 2:34 PM on November 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
Adult daycare is great for those who can use it. So is assisted living, or in home care for those who can use them. Or even independent living with selective services. Some people really need round the clock skilled nursing care, though. And for them, a good nursing home is not a fate to be feared. It's a place where there are people to help them, with complex needs and medical problems, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:45 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:45 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Absolutely. And also, around the clock skilled nursing home care is not the same as, nor an appropriate replacement for, those other options for people in the other situations, despite the economies of scale that you mentioned. Your comment was, “I don't see why we need to keep people out of nursing homes”. No one - and, specifically, not the comment you were replying to - was saying that nursing homes should not exist for anyone. They were saying that lots of people end up in nursing homes who would be better served by other options - including the specific family member of the commenter you were replying to - because those other options aren’t available.
posted by eviemath at 4:47 PM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 4:47 PM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't think that really happens? Nursing homes are really expensive (like >$100,000 per year) if not covered by Medicaid. And Medicaid won't cover a nursing home unless it is medically necessary. Nobody is pushing anyone into nursing homes, except maybe exhausted family members who finally give up on trying to provide 24-7 skilled nursing care for free, themselves, to people who do have that level of need.
This is a weird side conversation anyway. I really just wanted to ask people not to announce that they would kill themselves if they were ever old and severely disabled, or needed a nursing home. And nothing in these other topics makes that an okay thing to say.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:53 PM on November 21, 2023
This is a weird side conversation anyway. I really just wanted to ask people not to announce that they would kill themselves if they were ever old and severely disabled, or needed a nursing home. And nothing in these other topics makes that an okay thing to say.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:53 PM on November 21, 2023
I don't think that really happens?
For the third or fourth time: one of our fellow commenters was describing just such an instance in their personal family experience.
It also happens in Canada, which is the subject region of the fpp link.
posted by eviemath at 8:10 PM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
For the third or fourth time: one of our fellow commenters was describing just such an instance in their personal family experience.
It also happens in Canada, which is the subject region of the fpp link.
posted by eviemath at 8:10 PM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
MBO - thanks - yup aware of that. At some point well before I would like to retire I’m going to have to look at the laws at the time, take a deep breath, and choose to either return to NZ or live here in the US and roll dice on what combination of currency exchange, taxes, healthcare system and benefits etc will potentially allow me to live without complete ruin and not get caught in the big wide “congratulations you aren’t eligible for retirement benefits in any country” trap that I’m circling far too close to for comfort.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:45 AM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:45 AM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Medicaid won't cover a nursing home unless it is medically necessary
So, sort of. Remember, Medicaid is covered by 50 different states, all of which have different ideas about what makes things medically necessary. From the American Council on Aging,
Sometimes they need a nurse to come draw their blood once a week, check their levels, and give them an IV with vitamin replenishment, so they don't have worsening early dementia. Sometimes they need a physically strong person to be able to restrain them and potentially sedate them until they're themselves again, to make sure they don't hurt anyone they love or go out and cause harm or get arrested. Because that's the thing - confusion and dementia comes in waves, it's not constant.
And sometimes, not even medically skilled assisted living, what people need is unskilled assisted living when they don't have someone to live with them. They need a weekly housecleaner, or someone to come do meal preparation, or someone to help them with their finances who won't take them over completely and prevent them from ever spending another dollar. But we don't have that in this country. We only acknowledge two states - either you're completely unable to function and thus you need to be placed in a home and warehoused in a bed, where you can be conveniently attended to - because nursing homes don't really let their patients leave that often, really - or you are fine and don't need any help so we're not going to pay for it.
posted by corb at 5:52 AM on November 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
So, sort of. Remember, Medicaid is covered by 50 different states, all of which have different ideas about what makes things medically necessary. From the American Council on Aging,
States use functional assessment tools to determine if a person meets a Nursing Facility Level of Care...So in some states, the fact that someone has both cognitive and behavioral impairment and difficulty with the instrumental activities of daily living (housecleaning, paying bills) can qualify them for a nursing home. By some of these standards viewed objectively, a number of Iraq War veterans I know - retirees - with the aging impacts of traumatic brain injury and severe PTSD would currently qualify for nursing home care, especially if they don't have a family member living with them. But they don't actually need nursing home care. What they need is assisted living.
Questions regarding one’s health, mental functioning, behavior, and family support may also be included. With these questionnaires, a state may set a minimum score (a threshold number) and if the candidate reaches that score, it indicates they meet the LOC need. For instance, the necessity of verbal ques to perform an activity might earn 1 point, the physical need for assistance might earn 2 points, troubling behavior (i.e., wandering or aggressiveness) might earn 3 points, and the need for constant supervision to ensure safety might also earn 3 points. Other states may set a minimum number of ADLs in which a senior requires assistance, and if they cannot perform the minimum number of ADLs set forth, the Nursing Home Level of Care requirement is met. In some states, needing assistance with 2 ADLs may be sufficient to be labeled as such, while other states may require assistance with 4 ADLs. Still, other states set forth specific definitions and rules and the person completing the LOC assessment uses them as a guideline. Regardless of how the state makes its determination, most states look at a combination of factors.
Sometimes they need a nurse to come draw their blood once a week, check their levels, and give them an IV with vitamin replenishment, so they don't have worsening early dementia. Sometimes they need a physically strong person to be able to restrain them and potentially sedate them until they're themselves again, to make sure they don't hurt anyone they love or go out and cause harm or get arrested. Because that's the thing - confusion and dementia comes in waves, it's not constant.
And sometimes, not even medically skilled assisted living, what people need is unskilled assisted living when they don't have someone to live with them. They need a weekly housecleaner, or someone to come do meal preparation, or someone to help them with their finances who won't take them over completely and prevent them from ever spending another dollar. But we don't have that in this country. We only acknowledge two states - either you're completely unable to function and thus you need to be placed in a home and warehoused in a bed, where you can be conveniently attended to - because nursing homes don't really let their patients leave that often, really - or you are fine and don't need any help so we're not going to pay for it.
posted by corb at 5:52 AM on November 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
A friend of mine is trying to set up a passive income stream for retirement using print-on-demand graphics websites. (Society6 et al.) I truly wonder how many of those will be around in five years, let alone 20+. But I don't have any alternatives to suggest either.
I have a friend who is always talking about "passive income," sending me youtube links, and so on. Everything that he sends me actually looks like a lot of work (i.e., not passive) and also a lot of them require up-front investment (i.e., if you can afford that you can probably also afford a well-funded investment account). I get the fantasy of sitting back and cashing low- or zero-effort checks every month (I'd certainly love to be in that position!), but I'm doubtful about how many genuinely passive income options actually exist.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:42 AM on November 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have a friend who is always talking about "passive income," sending me youtube links, and so on. Everything that he sends me actually looks like a lot of work (i.e., not passive) and also a lot of them require up-front investment (i.e., if you can afford that you can probably also afford a well-funded investment account). I get the fantasy of sitting back and cashing low- or zero-effort checks every month (I'd certainly love to be in that position!), but I'm doubtful about how many genuinely passive income options actually exist.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:42 AM on November 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mom was covered by Medicaid in Arizona for her assisted living and later nursing home care. She was, however, flat broke and us kids certainly couldn't cover those costs. She lived with my sister for a while but the very ADA unfriendly single wide trailer had become a problem. She then moved in with us and lived here for many months. However, she got to the point where she required more care than we were physically able to provide. She'd lost so much of her leg function that she couldn't transfer herself from one seat to another or into bed, and helping her one day completely wrecked my back, so much so that I had to change careers. Mom was NOT happy that we told her she was going to have to go into assisted living, but we just did not have a choice. But a funny thing happened. Even though it was one of the ones covered by the state, they had a decent staff. Mom was around people again and made a lot of friends. After a couple of years, she needed to move into a nursing home because her needs were too great for the assisted living home. Even then, the staff strung it out for a while because she liked being there and they knew it. She lived in a nursing home until she passed a year or so later.
We tried, we just couldn't physically do it. For some people, living at home is the best and most desirable option. For others, it's not, for varied reasons. Maybe their needs are too much for living alone and too much for family members to handle. Some people have no kids or have alienated the family so badly that no one will help them. For those who can still live at home with some help, the government should do whatever is needed to help them. On the fiscal side, it costs far less, even if you pay a family member for caregiving duties as some jurisdictions will offer. On the person's side, it's much better usually to live at home than in a facility. For those who need facilities, more people living at home means less crowding. Anyone who has had to navigate the minefield of nursing home care in places that are covered by the state knows what kind of problems society is looking at. It's only going to get worse as more people get older and we need all the options we can get.
posted by azpenguin at 11:06 AM on November 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
We tried, we just couldn't physically do it. For some people, living at home is the best and most desirable option. For others, it's not, for varied reasons. Maybe their needs are too much for living alone and too much for family members to handle. Some people have no kids or have alienated the family so badly that no one will help them. For those who can still live at home with some help, the government should do whatever is needed to help them. On the fiscal side, it costs far less, even if you pay a family member for caregiving duties as some jurisdictions will offer. On the person's side, it's much better usually to live at home than in a facility. For those who need facilities, more people living at home means less crowding. Anyone who has had to navigate the minefield of nursing home care in places that are covered by the state knows what kind of problems society is looking at. It's only going to get worse as more people get older and we need all the options we can get.
posted by azpenguin at 11:06 AM on November 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
The "people have to have more kids so they can pay into the pension/retirement system" argument really lays bare how much of a pyramid scheme capitalism is.
As others have said, this is not really a property of capitalism, and actually it ties in with:
A perspective on retirement savings that I found interesting are that they - in combination with all of your pension and social security entitlements - represent the proportion of future world output that you are entitled to.
Which is correct. Whether it's a government entitlement or a claim on capital, either way it's a claim on a share of future output. If future output is very much lower - then either the retired collectively will get less because their share of a smaller pie is worth less.
The US government, like any government, is able to stake a claim to a share of economic output so if that number is growing then funding social security becomes essentially an accounting decision since there is plenty of economic surplus to fund people who are no longer working. The only difference is that retirement investments can be global but the US is such a large part of the world economy that this is irrelevant for Americans.
Social Security (and other government programs) are not funded by taxes, the government doesn’t need our money to operate because the government is the source of our money. Poverty is instead a political choice.
MMT theories like this work fine if the problem your economy faces is a big macro output gap. In other words, there's iron ore going unmined, blast furnaces idle, workers unemployed, and bridges that need building but it's a lack of liquidity that is stopping this from being used. That is not how the American economy in 2023 is configured. The US is actually near full employment and with little output gap. No monetary policy can create steel from nothing, they can only manage the output gap such that our society produces as close to the maximum possible. (Also, MMT only really works at all for a country like the US which is near autarky, it wouldn't come close to representing the economic reality of a place like Germany since it is not the German government that decides things like how much energy will cost and theoretically the US government could do that).
A big thing being left out here is that retired people *do* have purpose - they generally work in their *communities* - they just do it on their own time, don’t get paid, and can take vacations whenever they want. Count me out of having to have a boss for another thirty years, thanks.
Older people provide an immense amount of free childcare! If they didn't do that, many early years systems would collapse / people would be forced out of the workforce.
You don't have to worry about birth rates if you just allow in more young immigrants. But for some reason we don't want that. Huh.
One of the reasons that the US and Canada are ageing more slowly than many European countries is precisely because they do that. This is also why the UK has one of the younger populations in Europe, much higher net inward migration than average. Nonetheless, the entire world is going through a demographic transition soon. China is ageing faster than the US. So just moving the problem around in this way doesn't solve the challenge.
posted by atrazine at 2:56 PM on November 22, 2023 [10 favorites]
As others have said, this is not really a property of capitalism, and actually it ties in with:
A perspective on retirement savings that I found interesting are that they - in combination with all of your pension and social security entitlements - represent the proportion of future world output that you are entitled to.
Which is correct. Whether it's a government entitlement or a claim on capital, either way it's a claim on a share of future output. If future output is very much lower - then either the retired collectively will get less because their share of a smaller pie is worth less.
The US government, like any government, is able to stake a claim to a share of economic output so if that number is growing then funding social security becomes essentially an accounting decision since there is plenty of economic surplus to fund people who are no longer working. The only difference is that retirement investments can be global but the US is such a large part of the world economy that this is irrelevant for Americans.
Social Security (and other government programs) are not funded by taxes, the government doesn’t need our money to operate because the government is the source of our money. Poverty is instead a political choice.
MMT theories like this work fine if the problem your economy faces is a big macro output gap. In other words, there's iron ore going unmined, blast furnaces idle, workers unemployed, and bridges that need building but it's a lack of liquidity that is stopping this from being used. That is not how the American economy in 2023 is configured. The US is actually near full employment and with little output gap. No monetary policy can create steel from nothing, they can only manage the output gap such that our society produces as close to the maximum possible. (Also, MMT only really works at all for a country like the US which is near autarky, it wouldn't come close to representing the economic reality of a place like Germany since it is not the German government that decides things like how much energy will cost and theoretically the US government could do that).
A big thing being left out here is that retired people *do* have purpose - they generally work in their *communities* - they just do it on their own time, don’t get paid, and can take vacations whenever they want. Count me out of having to have a boss for another thirty years, thanks.
Older people provide an immense amount of free childcare! If they didn't do that, many early years systems would collapse / people would be forced out of the workforce.
You don't have to worry about birth rates if you just allow in more young immigrants. But for some reason we don't want that. Huh.
One of the reasons that the US and Canada are ageing more slowly than many European countries is precisely because they do that. This is also why the UK has one of the younger populations in Europe, much higher net inward migration than average. Nonetheless, the entire world is going through a demographic transition soon. China is ageing faster than the US. So just moving the problem around in this way doesn't solve the challenge.
posted by atrazine at 2:56 PM on November 22, 2023 [10 favorites]
inflatablekiwi: there's a minimum number of years you have to have lived in NZ (10) since you turned 20, at least 5 of those have to have been since you turned 50, and you have to be a NZ resident when you apply - note that the incoming government (spit) is likely to raise the pension age.
In my case I didn't realise I would lose my SS until just before we left for NZ (after 20 years), I'd looked at taking US citizenship a few years before, but at the time the administrative backlog was like 7 years. I've been back home since 45 so I've got ~25 years of paying into the NZ pension, 20 of those years in the top tax bracket (I kept working in the US for those 20 years, still earning my Silicon Valley salary) so I don't feel too bad about getting the pension
posted by mbo at 3:01 PM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
In my case I didn't realise I would lose my SS until just before we left for NZ (after 20 years), I'd looked at taking US citizenship a few years before, but at the time the administrative backlog was like 7 years. I've been back home since 45 so I've got ~25 years of paying into the NZ pension, 20 of those years in the top tax bracket (I kept working in the US for those 20 years, still earning my Silicon Valley salary) so I don't feel too bad about getting the pension
posted by mbo at 3:01 PM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
The National Institute on Ageing report says that, by 2050, care in one’s own home will cost up to $25,000 a month; care in a retirement home or residence could be as much as $10,000 a month. Those options will be unaffordable for most Canadians.
I just went through an end of life care situation with my mother and father in Canada and this kind of financial nightmare scenario was absolutely not my experience. Not even close. Even during the pandemic my parents had multiple supportive care visits per day from people performing different duties all covered. My father's care in a LTC facility managing his demise from Parkinson's and advanced senile dementia costs only a just a bit more than rent would have anyway. I'v come away from the experience amazed at how well my parents were looked after and extra motivated to retire back to Canada eventually.
My father being from the lucky generation is even actually still earning while completely disabled because he has a good pension and even with the wild Canadian stock market right now is breaking even on his trust.
Partly my parent's situation "benefited" if you can call it that from the reality that they had no possible local care givers as both my surviving brother and I live in a different country and this lack of support "unlocked" some extra support benefits for my parents but even before my older brother suddenly died they were being very well looked after and supported. I imagine there is a lot of provincial and regional variability in Canada and my parents had the advantage of living their final years in a pretty tony suburb of Toronto (Oakville if you're planning) so they may have had better support than available at many places (certainly more resources than available in rural areas for example). I guess I'll find out soon enough how it plays out elsewhere in Canada with my very rural in-laws.
posted by srboisvert at 7:12 AM on November 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I just went through an end of life care situation with my mother and father in Canada and this kind of financial nightmare scenario was absolutely not my experience. Not even close. Even during the pandemic my parents had multiple supportive care visits per day from people performing different duties all covered. My father's care in a LTC facility managing his demise from Parkinson's and advanced senile dementia costs only a just a bit more than rent would have anyway. I'v come away from the experience amazed at how well my parents were looked after and extra motivated to retire back to Canada eventually.
My father being from the lucky generation is even actually still earning while completely disabled because he has a good pension and even with the wild Canadian stock market right now is breaking even on his trust.
Partly my parent's situation "benefited" if you can call it that from the reality that they had no possible local care givers as both my surviving brother and I live in a different country and this lack of support "unlocked" some extra support benefits for my parents but even before my older brother suddenly died they were being very well looked after and supported. I imagine there is a lot of provincial and regional variability in Canada and my parents had the advantage of living their final years in a pretty tony suburb of Toronto (Oakville if you're planning) so they may have had better support than available at many places (certainly more resources than available in rural areas for example). I guess I'll find out soon enough how it plays out elsewhere in Canada with my very rural in-laws.
posted by srboisvert at 7:12 AM on November 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean, I know much will depend on my finances and health, but I'd rather be retired here in Canada than back home in the US. Again, a good chunk of this is due to having a basic universal healthcare safety net; it's why I fight back so strongly against Ford's attempts to privatize our healthcare.
posted by Kitteh at 7:34 AM on November 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 7:34 AM on November 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
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