A simple theory of cancel culture
December 2, 2023 7:47 PM Subscribe
A simple theory of cancel culture, by Joseph Heath (previously). It's a social phenomenon that's independent of political ideology: a celebrity chef in China recently sparked outrage by posting a recipe for egg fried rice. "Social media have expanded the power of individuals to recruit third parties to conflict. This has dramatically enhanced people’s ability to escalate conflict, which has two notable effects. First, it has resulted in many minor conflicts, such as routine violations of etiquette, becoming much more severely contested and sanctioned. Second, it has made it possible to intimidate individuals and institutions in ways that had previously not been possible."
From the post:
From the post:
Cancellation practices are not going to disappear. The only productive question is whether the way that people respond to these practices is likely to change.
Here there are grounds for some optimism. Our current perceptions of cancel culture have been strongly influenced by the generationally staggered adoption of the relevant communication technologies. Specifically, because young people were early adopters of social media, the enhanced capacity to escalate conflict that I have been describing was for a time quite unevenly distributed in the population. As a result, many institutions staffed by people my age and older were blindsided by the sudden appearance of online mobs of young people making various demands. Many of these older people, quite frankly, panicked, leading them to make very foolish choices.
(I recall quite vividly a meeting several years ago at my own institution, where I and a few colleagues succeeded in talking down a group of administrators and staff who were in the throes of overreaction to a petition they had received demanding that Jordan Peterson be fired. “What are we going to do?” they asked. “How about nothing?” we suggested. “But what are we going to say to all these people?” they replied. This led to the highlight of the meeting, when my colleague from the law school, a rather formal, button-down type, looked at them as though they had lost their minds and said “How about telling them to fuck off?”)
Well it auto-backpats over a time when Jordan Peterson was saved, so...?
Also, I'd like to propose the real gripe is the inverse losing impact? That cancel culture is now democratized whereas previously getting the cops to raid the suspected gay colleague, FBI raiding the local communist, or union leader being run out required some pull and social connection the riff raff lacked. And now anyone can do it to their belligerent uncle via ugly but ultimately toothless social engineering? The horror.
posted by Slackermagee at 8:34 PM on December 2, 2023 [36 favorites]
Also, I'd like to propose the real gripe is the inverse losing impact? That cancel culture is now democratized whereas previously getting the cops to raid the suspected gay colleague, FBI raiding the local communist, or union leader being run out required some pull and social connection the riff raff lacked. And now anyone can do it to their belligerent uncle via ugly but ultimately toothless social engineering? The horror.
posted by Slackermagee at 8:34 PM on December 2, 2023 [36 favorites]
Ok, but the egg fried rice recipe scandal on the Chinese internet is totally fascinating.
Copied from this CNN article (Mao Anying was Mao Zedong's son),
So interesting! If anyone knows more about it I would love to hear it.
posted by catcafe at 9:13 PM on December 2, 2023 [27 favorites]
Copied from this CNN article (Mao Anying was Mao Zedong's son),
Wang’s video was solely about making egg fried rice, but for some Chinese nationalists, any mention of the dish around the anniversary of Mao Anying’s death or birthday on October 24 amounts to a deliberate act of insult and mockery.As written, the headline seems absurd, but it is the third time the chef has posted a fried rice recipe around this time of year, and he only got lightly cancelled the first two times, lol. It also doesn't seem to be an anti-communist gesture, but an anti-hereditary regime symbol? Plus more official sources insist the rumor isn't true, and some people argue that cancelling people because of it lends credence to the rumor.
....
The controversial account has it that Mao Anying, an officer in the People’s Liberation Army, disobeyed orders to take shelter during the air raid. Instead, the hungry young man fired up a stove to make egg fried rice, which sent smoke into the air and gave away his position to enemy jets.
So interesting! If anyone knows more about it I would love to hear it.
posted by catcafe at 9:13 PM on December 2, 2023 [27 favorites]
This all makes sense to me and I like the framing of cancellation as not necessarily driven by left or right but by interpersonal conflict, the stuff about people looking for folks to agree with them and pile on, and the point about social media making this possible to a huge and frightening degree. I like the post!
I googled him, to see if his other ideas were good or bad and his wiki page makes it sound like he's basically liberal economically (from my US perspective, even though he's Canadian) but a glance at more of his Substack pieces show a guy that's drifting rightward.
posted by pelvicsorcery at 9:17 PM on December 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
I googled him, to see if his other ideas were good or bad and his wiki page makes it sound like he's basically liberal economically (from my US perspective, even though he's Canadian) but a glance at more of his Substack pieces show a guy that's drifting rightward.
posted by pelvicsorcery at 9:17 PM on December 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
Dammit, now I'm hungry. I even want the little pieces of pork with the fake red smoke ring.
posted by credulous at 9:29 PM on December 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by credulous at 9:29 PM on December 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Stir fried rice in question, in case ppl are interested or hungry
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:13 PM on December 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:13 PM on December 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
“What are we going to do?” they asked. “How about nothing?” we suggested. “But what are we going to say to all these people?” they replied. This led to the highlight of the meeting, when my colleague from the law school, a rather formal, button-down type, looked at them as though they had lost their minds and said “How about telling them to fuck off?”The way he quotes some fucking idiot law professor upset at justified student outrage like its a mic drop moment.
A tenured academic circling the wagons around a man who's existence is one of the best arguments against tenure.
posted by zymil at 10:24 PM on December 2, 2023 [25 favorites]
Studied under Habermas, identifies with the Franfurt School, doesn't like identity politics much. There are a lot of leftists of assorted stripes who don't like identity politics much and are not "drifting rightward," because identity politics are not the sole left pole, they're just one kind of left, and further evidence that describing politics as "left" or "right" isn't super helpful.
In principle, an increased capacity of individuals to draw attention to injustice and for aggrieved parties to recruit others to their side could be a positive development. The problem is that we have not figured out yet how to sort the wheat from the chaff in the deluge of complaints that has resulted.
I've seen fair dogpiles and I've seen unfair dogpiles. This seems like a mild observation to me. The democratization of Mass Dogpile Technology isn't an unalloyed good: It just means the dogpiles can be popular with more people than not. People in America, at least, are not strangers to oppressive majorities.
posted by Pudding Yeti at 12:23 AM on December 3, 2023 [26 favorites]
In principle, an increased capacity of individuals to draw attention to injustice and for aggrieved parties to recruit others to their side could be a positive development. The problem is that we have not figured out yet how to sort the wheat from the chaff in the deluge of complaints that has resulted.
I've seen fair dogpiles and I've seen unfair dogpiles. This seems like a mild observation to me. The democratization of Mass Dogpile Technology isn't an unalloyed good: It just means the dogpiles can be popular with more people than not. People in America, at least, are not strangers to oppressive majorities.
posted by Pudding Yeti at 12:23 AM on December 3, 2023 [26 favorites]
At this point, if it's (a) an essay about "cancel culture" and (b) on Substack, I'm going to need a declaration that it is not by an alt-right person (or one of their "both sides" apologists) before I click on it.
Thank you, splitpeasoup, for the quote marks.
The rest of you, look at yourselves. By allowing one of their tropes to slither unchecked into everyday language, you're doing the far-right's work for them.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 3:51 AM on December 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
Thank you, splitpeasoup, for the quote marks.
The rest of you, look at yourselves. By allowing one of their tropes to slither unchecked into everyday language, you're doing the far-right's work for them.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 3:51 AM on December 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
That was a pleasure to read—thanks for posting, russilwvong.
As a result, they have mastered none of the essential techniques of effective political change.
Huh. That does not square with my experience.
The post also completely leaves out the problems with/failure of mass responses in the face of a determined state (millions protesting U.S. invasion of Iraq, etc., etc.). Ditto the problem of what young and would-be politically active folks oppressed by debt, intolerable rent, poor employment opportunities, etc. are supposed to do. And even in inequitable circumstances, the last eight years have inculcated an “if I can’t do X, at least I can do Y and Z,” where all of those letters are traditionally effective political actions.
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:58 AM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
As a result, they have mastered none of the essential techniques of effective political change.
Huh. That does not square with my experience.
The post also completely leaves out the problems with/failure of mass responses in the face of a determined state (millions protesting U.S. invasion of Iraq, etc., etc.). Ditto the problem of what young and would-be politically active folks oppressed by debt, intolerable rent, poor employment opportunities, etc. are supposed to do. And even in inequitable circumstances, the last eight years have inculcated an “if I can’t do X, at least I can do Y and Z,” where all of those letters are traditionally effective political actions.
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:58 AM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mob justice can be scary and unfair, especially when the mob draws an incorrect conclusion, but I too am having trouble identifying with an article that seems to in some fashion support that creep Jordan Peterson.
Still not sure that I really understand that fried rice "scandal" but I do find it fascinating.
posted by caddis at 5:47 AM on December 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Still not sure that I really understand that fried rice "scandal" but I do find it fascinating.
posted by caddis at 5:47 AM on December 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm going to give this a read, but I'm not comforted by the claim that you can talk about cancel culture without discussing politics and the example you're using is Chinese internet fandom mores....
posted by cendawanita at 6:54 AM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:54 AM on December 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
"...it has resulted in many minor conflicts, such as routine violations of etiquette, becoming much more severely contested and sanctioned. Second, it has made it possible to intimidate individuals and institutions in ways that had previously not been possible."
Two of the thoughts that came up as I read this:
1. Heath had an opportunity to refer (by analogy) to political upheavals in the '60s and '70s but didn't. The missing element is organization and the research that implies. The salient point was that while "cancel" efforts represented like-minded individuals expressing disapproval (or taking sides), their mission was incomplete since they didn't take the opportunity to provide a path forward or suggest a change. Or, in my own words, a mob reaction rather than a movement. It may be appropriate to call this activity "cancel culture" since it seems to be establishing itself over a wide range of interactive media, and it doesn't seem to be relegated to any particular place on the political spectrum.
I liked the short-lived version--flash mob--where musicians suddenly appear out of a crowd at the mall and play music for an astonished and appreciative bunch of people, transforming them into an audience. The moment passes, the musicians fade away, and dozens of people walk away smiling.
As an aging fud, I watch our culture from an increasingly isolated position, but I haven't yet reached the point where I sit in my front yard and yell at the kids to get off my lawn. I wish I could stick around to see how your guys manage to work this out. We did our best with the advent of the automobile but ended up with Levittown and shopping malls. Sorry about that.
2. What the hell is the controversy over how that guy loaded the dishwasher? It looks fine to me.
posted by mule98J at 7:07 AM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Two of the thoughts that came up as I read this:
1. Heath had an opportunity to refer (by analogy) to political upheavals in the '60s and '70s but didn't. The missing element is organization and the research that implies. The salient point was that while "cancel" efforts represented like-minded individuals expressing disapproval (or taking sides), their mission was incomplete since they didn't take the opportunity to provide a path forward or suggest a change. Or, in my own words, a mob reaction rather than a movement. It may be appropriate to call this activity "cancel culture" since it seems to be establishing itself over a wide range of interactive media, and it doesn't seem to be relegated to any particular place on the political spectrum.
I liked the short-lived version--flash mob--where musicians suddenly appear out of a crowd at the mall and play music for an astonished and appreciative bunch of people, transforming them into an audience. The moment passes, the musicians fade away, and dozens of people walk away smiling.
As an aging fud, I watch our culture from an increasingly isolated position, but I haven't yet reached the point where I sit in my front yard and yell at the kids to get off my lawn. I wish I could stick around to see how your guys manage to work this out. We did our best with the advent of the automobile but ended up with Levittown and shopping malls. Sorry about that.
2. What the hell is the controversy over how that guy loaded the dishwasher? It looks fine to me.
posted by mule98J at 7:07 AM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'd approach anything by Joseph Heath with skepticism, he's a bit of a social-science weasel, reasonable-sounding on the surface but with an undertone of conservatism. And we've heard plenty from guys like this lately.
posted by ovvl at 7:15 AM on December 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 7:15 AM on December 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
One nascent thought that's been floating around in my head is that while previous inventions in communications, radio/television broadcasting, made one-to-many communication frictionless (if you had the budget to get on the air) the internet has for the first time allowed frictionless many-to-one communication.
Someone who wants to reply to a piece of media, they're no longer stuck with old-fashioned, slow, writing letter, the communication is easy and immediate. And that has implications that it's possible to get a whole lot more feedback than seems reasonable or expected.
A lot of internet activity is in a quasi-public state that doesn't really map well to previous real life social situation. It's a conversation amongst friends in public - or at least a conversation among a limited context in public, that at any time can be found by literally everyone, even after the fact. Which leads to situation where someone says something thoughtless, that were it in person might result in a couple of friends rightfully chiding that person.
But now it's on the internet, and it can go viral, and suddenly there can be several thousand people chiding that person, no "recruiting others" needed. Never mind the handful of people who overrreact (which is a likelihood in a friend group, but amongst a thousand times more people its a thousand times more likely) and suddenly the whole thing is emotionally traumatizing.
Social mores haven't caught up to the fact that offering your opinion of a private person's actions past a certain point of separation needs to be unbelievably rude, otherwise this sort of thing is going to keep happening. It's not a "culture" it's a property of the communication system that's arisen in the internet age.
That said, Jordan Peterson is a terrible example from this point of view. He was taking full advantage of last century's one-to-many communication technologies to promote himself. Being on the receiving end of many-to-one communication is merely fair.
posted by Zalzidrax at 7:33 AM on December 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
Someone who wants to reply to a piece of media, they're no longer stuck with old-fashioned, slow, writing letter, the communication is easy and immediate. And that has implications that it's possible to get a whole lot more feedback than seems reasonable or expected.
A lot of internet activity is in a quasi-public state that doesn't really map well to previous real life social situation. It's a conversation amongst friends in public - or at least a conversation among a limited context in public, that at any time can be found by literally everyone, even after the fact. Which leads to situation where someone says something thoughtless, that were it in person might result in a couple of friends rightfully chiding that person.
But now it's on the internet, and it can go viral, and suddenly there can be several thousand people chiding that person, no "recruiting others" needed. Never mind the handful of people who overrreact (which is a likelihood in a friend group, but amongst a thousand times more people its a thousand times more likely) and suddenly the whole thing is emotionally traumatizing.
Social mores haven't caught up to the fact that offering your opinion of a private person's actions past a certain point of separation needs to be unbelievably rude, otherwise this sort of thing is going to keep happening. It's not a "culture" it's a property of the communication system that's arisen in the internet age.
That said, Jordan Peterson is a terrible example from this point of view. He was taking full advantage of last century's one-to-many communication technologies to promote himself. Being on the receiving end of many-to-one communication is merely fair.
posted by Zalzidrax at 7:33 AM on December 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
doesn't like identity politics much
"Identity politics" is just another right wing buzzword. Specifically, it's a way to smear lived experience.
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:38 AM on December 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
"Identity politics" is just another right wing buzzword. Specifically, it's a way to smear lived experience.
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:38 AM on December 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
Identity politics was first used to describe the mobilization of the religious right. It's a bipartisan buzzword.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:57 AM on December 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:57 AM on December 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
.it has resulted in many minor conflicts, such as routine violations of etiquette, becoming much more severely contested and sanctioned.
I was just kind of musing about this on BlueSky, hilariously - I think there's actually a real phenomenon that's going on and is problematic, that's getting lost behind a lot of the people being called out being absolutely awful. But a lot of what's happening that's actually causing real issues in our society is kind of like a new Puritanism, where anyone can be put in the public stocks for dancing inappropriately on Meeting Day or whatever.
Because it's not *just* 'so and so went to Jan 6', 'so and so had a racist rant at his students', it's also - I have a kid in their early twenties, so I hear all this stuff real-time - 'So-and-so roomed with someone else, then they got depressed and left dishes all over, thus MANIPULATIVELY FORCING THE OTHER PERSON TO DEAL WITH THEIR DEPRESSION'. Or, 'So-and-so is still friends with this other person, who we all agreed should be cancelled because of an incredibly petty minor sin two years ago'. 'so-and-so's mother posted a picture of them eating Chik-Fil-A several months ago, and this OTHER person didn't join in the shame mob, so they're basically just as bad.' It's all the worst shit of high school, except magnified by the internet and made permanent.
posted by corb at 8:09 AM on December 3, 2023 [25 favorites]
I was just kind of musing about this on BlueSky, hilariously - I think there's actually a real phenomenon that's going on and is problematic, that's getting lost behind a lot of the people being called out being absolutely awful. But a lot of what's happening that's actually causing real issues in our society is kind of like a new Puritanism, where anyone can be put in the public stocks for dancing inappropriately on Meeting Day or whatever.
Because it's not *just* 'so and so went to Jan 6', 'so and so had a racist rant at his students', it's also - I have a kid in their early twenties, so I hear all this stuff real-time - 'So-and-so roomed with someone else, then they got depressed and left dishes all over, thus MANIPULATIVELY FORCING THE OTHER PERSON TO DEAL WITH THEIR DEPRESSION'. Or, 'So-and-so is still friends with this other person, who we all agreed should be cancelled because of an incredibly petty minor sin two years ago'. 'so-and-so's mother posted a picture of them eating Chik-Fil-A several months ago, and this OTHER person didn't join in the shame mob, so they're basically just as bad.' It's all the worst shit of high school, except magnified by the internet and made permanent.
posted by corb at 8:09 AM on December 3, 2023 [25 favorites]
Uhhhh “identity politics” did not originate as a slur, nor did it begin with discussion of mobilization of the religious right. Yes, words shift meaning, and it’s now more associated with conservative attacks, but maybe we should remember the earliest recorded use:
“This focusing upon our own oppression is embodied in the concept of identity politics. We believe that the most profound and potentially most radical politics come directly out of our own identity, as opposed to working to end somebody else's oppression.”
That’s BIPOC women speaking, and I think that’s worth remembering.
posted by cupcakeninja at 8:11 AM on December 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
“This focusing upon our own oppression is embodied in the concept of identity politics. We believe that the most profound and potentially most radical politics come directly out of our own identity, as opposed to working to end somebody else's oppression.”
That’s BIPOC women speaking, and I think that’s worth remembering.
posted by cupcakeninja at 8:11 AM on December 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
Near the end, he attributes this in part to young people feeling that they no longer need to engage in debate and can just cancel someone. As far as I've seen, the moms for fascism liberty/Trump is the new messiah crew who have done this. The lefty mob exists, but it doesn't have a massive media and financial network backing it up. (The administrators who didn't fire Peterson probably saved themselves a great deal of stress from the piles of death threats they world have received. Those threats would have come in part from younger people. But they would equally have come from millennials and older generations.) They digital native theory ignores the fact that this response is not a generational thing.
I'm slightly annoyed that he didn't mention the two biggest examples of recent, but pre social network cancelation: Sinéad O'Connor and the Chicks (formerly Dixie). The haute machine can now be turned onto anyone, even professors who have done nothing wrong but have somehow been depicted as bigoted bullies for, you know, bigotedly bullying students.
posted by Hactar at 8:15 AM on December 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'm slightly annoyed that he didn't mention the two biggest examples of recent, but pre social network cancelation: Sinéad O'Connor and the Chicks (formerly Dixie). The haute machine can now be turned onto anyone, even professors who have done nothing wrong but have somehow been depicted as bigoted bullies for, you know, bigotedly bullying students.
posted by Hactar at 8:15 AM on December 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
It's not that people no longer feel the need to engage in debate. It's that debate is not an effective way of convincing people. People are not willing to be convinced. Politics has become about mobilizing the people who already agree with you more effectively, and stopping the opponent from doing so. War by other means.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:32 AM on December 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:32 AM on December 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
The way he describes it, it can be used as a tactic for good, ill, or silly. Like, use it against rapists and bigots. I don't think the writer would agree that maybe it could have been used against JP.
posted by es_de_bah at 8:42 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by es_de_bah at 8:42 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
those rice look amazing.
Otherwise, this is such a fraught subject, but for the most, it's about people being called out for doing something mean. Yes, it is magnified by the internet and yes, most of the participants have no idea what they are voting up or down. But jeez, don't be mean in the first place. And if you didn't think you were mean, educate yourself.
posted by mumimor at 11:30 AM on December 3, 2023
Otherwise, this is such a fraught subject, but for the most, it's about people being called out for doing something mean. Yes, it is magnified by the internet and yes, most of the participants have no idea what they are voting up or down. But jeez, don't be mean in the first place. And if you didn't think you were mean, educate yourself.
posted by mumimor at 11:30 AM on December 3, 2023
I forgot: anyone who brings up apes in a discussion about contemporary human society is either stupid, in bad faith, or both. There are exceptions to this rule, but they are few and not relevant in this context.
posted by mumimor at 11:54 AM on December 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 11:54 AM on December 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
The rest of you, look at yourselves. By allowing one of their tropes to slither unchecked into everyday language, you're doing the far-right's work for them.
The slither trail has grown cold. The barn door hangs open and the horse is frolicking in the pasture. The spilled milk dries in the sun and it will never again be in the pail. There is no line to hold here.
And this is one of the milder formulations of "cancel culture" out there. At a time when the tactics under discussion are being turned on progressives, it's worthwhile to ask "what's the best way to handle this?" Because we're in a season of students who plainly do not have "far-right" commitments losing jobs and opportunities for taking certain positions, and others facing doxing and abuse as these tactics are turned on them.
When you flip it around and consider "young progressive loses job because an online mob is organized against them," it'd be awesome if someone were there to coach the cowards running the business that rescinded their offer toward ignoring the mob and perhaps assessing the matter for themselves. If that leads, somehow, to the neutralization of cancellation tactics regardless of the target's ideological commitment, well, that's the nature of power and tactics: They're always shifting and evolving.
posted by Pudding Yeti at 12:28 PM on December 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
The slither trail has grown cold. The barn door hangs open and the horse is frolicking in the pasture. The spilled milk dries in the sun and it will never again be in the pail. There is no line to hold here.
And this is one of the milder formulations of "cancel culture" out there. At a time when the tactics under discussion are being turned on progressives, it's worthwhile to ask "what's the best way to handle this?" Because we're in a season of students who plainly do not have "far-right" commitments losing jobs and opportunities for taking certain positions, and others facing doxing and abuse as these tactics are turned on them.
When you flip it around and consider "young progressive loses job because an online mob is organized against them," it'd be awesome if someone were there to coach the cowards running the business that rescinded their offer toward ignoring the mob and perhaps assessing the matter for themselves. If that leads, somehow, to the neutralization of cancellation tactics regardless of the target's ideological commitment, well, that's the nature of power and tactics: They're always shifting and evolving.
posted by Pudding Yeti at 12:28 PM on December 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
"...anyone who brings up apes in a discussion about contemporary human society is either stupid, in bad faith, or both."
Punching up and punching down. Horses are social animals. They have complex, well-defined hierarchies within a herd. A low-ranking horse will often be pals with a high-ranking horse. The higher rank will protect his lower-ranking buddy from others in the herd who try to pick on him. If you've ever seen a horse-bully chase an unassuming herd-mate off a tasty patch of grass, you probably will have seen this sort of thing in action. So, fuck chimpanzees. They eat monkeys and tear people's faces off.
Arguments that begin with "Humans are the only critters that...." usually have a flawed opinion about humans and/or other animals. However, in the world of equines, mules make the most sense. They have little in common with humans.
posted by mule98J at 12:30 PM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Punching up and punching down. Horses are social animals. They have complex, well-defined hierarchies within a herd. A low-ranking horse will often be pals with a high-ranking horse. The higher rank will protect his lower-ranking buddy from others in the herd who try to pick on him. If you've ever seen a horse-bully chase an unassuming herd-mate off a tasty patch of grass, you probably will have seen this sort of thing in action. So, fuck chimpanzees. They eat monkeys and tear people's faces off.
Arguments that begin with "Humans are the only critters that...." usually have a flawed opinion about humans and/or other animals. However, in the world of equines, mules make the most sense. They have little in common with humans.
posted by mule98J at 12:30 PM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
> However, in the world of equines, mules make the most sense.
posted by mule98J at 3:30 PM on December 3 [+] [⚑]
Just what I would expect a mule to say!
posted by I-Write-Essays at 12:34 PM on December 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by mule98J at 3:30 PM on December 3 [+] [⚑]
Just what I would expect a mule to say!
posted by I-Write-Essays at 12:34 PM on December 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Cancellation is just Joseph Schumpeter's gales of creative destruction coming for individual brands.
posted by srboisvert at 12:36 PM on December 3, 2023
posted by srboisvert at 12:36 PM on December 3, 2023
Studied under Habermas, identifies with the Franfurt School, doesn't like identity politics much.
Wait, are we keeping files on our enemies now?
posted by swift at 1:39 PM on December 3, 2023
Wait, are we keeping files on our enemies now?
posted by swift at 1:39 PM on December 3, 2023
I also got a bit suspicious of the author based on his examples and rhetoric (Jordan Peterson ffs).
That said, I think the underlying idea is worth considering: that “cancellation” is a mode of conflict enabled by social media, that makes it much easier to get a large number of people to engage in low effort support.
I also think he’s probably right in identifying that an effective defense, for large institutions or the powerful, is to simply ignore the uproar — most online controversies die down quickly and don’t translate into sustained action. Smaller organizations or less powerful people are less likely to be able to sustain the hit. I’d love to read some analysis on the actual impact of example “cancellations” some time after the event, say 2-3 years down the line.
I’m somewhat persuaded by the idea because it fits with more serious academic work I’ve read on online political movements, including “Twitter and Tear Gas” by Zeynep Tufecki. That book discussed how online political action was often very effective at organizing lots of people for specific events, such as a single protest, but less effective at sustained organizing over a long period and building capacity for specific policy change.
Pity that the kernel of an interesting question comes from someone who seems, from my brief research, to be a grouchy somewhat conservative academic who probably complains about “kids these days”.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 2:01 PM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
That said, I think the underlying idea is worth considering: that “cancellation” is a mode of conflict enabled by social media, that makes it much easier to get a large number of people to engage in low effort support.
I also think he’s probably right in identifying that an effective defense, for large institutions or the powerful, is to simply ignore the uproar — most online controversies die down quickly and don’t translate into sustained action. Smaller organizations or less powerful people are less likely to be able to sustain the hit. I’d love to read some analysis on the actual impact of example “cancellations” some time after the event, say 2-3 years down the line.
I’m somewhat persuaded by the idea because it fits with more serious academic work I’ve read on online political movements, including “Twitter and Tear Gas” by Zeynep Tufecki. That book discussed how online political action was often very effective at organizing lots of people for specific events, such as a single protest, but less effective at sustained organizing over a long period and building capacity for specific policy change.
Pity that the kernel of an interesting question comes from someone who seems, from my brief research, to be a grouchy somewhat conservative academic who probably complains about “kids these days”.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 2:01 PM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ok, so "identity politics" didn't originate as a right wing buzzword, but it's a buzzword now isn't it?
Same as "deep state", "fake news", and IIRC "cancel culture" itself.
posted by splitpeasoup at 3:38 PM on December 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Same as "deep state", "fake news", and IIRC "cancel culture" itself.
posted by splitpeasoup at 3:38 PM on December 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
> for large institutions or the powerful ... I’d love to read some analysis on the actual impact of example “cancellations” some time after the event, say 2-3 years down the line.
I'd be curious to do that analysis particularly on the situation at Reddit this summer. That was not only an uproar in words, but it led to mass shutdowns of subreddits and community flight to other platforms. Am I right in believing it worked?
In the past, when a large institution was targeted like this, we wouldn't call it Being Cancelled, we'd call it a Boycott, and those are effective because they have teeth beyond public opprobrium.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 4:06 PM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'd be curious to do that analysis particularly on the situation at Reddit this summer. That was not only an uproar in words, but it led to mass shutdowns of subreddits and community flight to other platforms. Am I right in believing it worked?
In the past, when a large institution was targeted like this, we wouldn't call it Being Cancelled, we'd call it a Boycott, and those are effective because they have teeth beyond public opprobrium.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 4:06 PM on December 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ok, so "identity politics" didn't originate as a right wing buzzword, but it's a buzzword now isn't it?
I have personally been using it in left wing circles as originally meant since 1991, because it is a useful label that allows me to communicate about a body of theory or political thinking with people who know exactly what I mean, and these people are also not right-wingers.
But that's just me, and who the hell am I?
Outside me and my circles, it is still a phrase in wide use among relatively prominent leftists such as Adolph Reed, Olúfẹ́mi O. Táíwò, Cornel West, Judith Butler, and Cedric Johnson. These are all national figures getting published in books, magazines, etc. who all use the phrase "identity politics" to this day to communicate meaningfully about ... identity politics.
In my experience, people with socialist politics are most likely to be familiar with the "classical" definition, and they still use it in that sense because it is perfectly descriptive and is a perfectly respectful way to refer to the ideas set forth in the Combahee River Collective Statement and related texts.
Those folks also represent a spectrum of views on the thing they'd all refer to as "identity politics," from somewhat hostile (Reed), to "wow this sure has come to mean a lot of things to a lot of people" (Butler), and on through to "generally on board and would like to harmonize it with other left currents that are sometimes too dismissive of it" (Táíwò).
posted by Pudding Yeti at 4:23 PM on December 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
I have personally been using it in left wing circles as originally meant since 1991, because it is a useful label that allows me to communicate about a body of theory or political thinking with people who know exactly what I mean, and these people are also not right-wingers.
But that's just me, and who the hell am I?
Outside me and my circles, it is still a phrase in wide use among relatively prominent leftists such as Adolph Reed, Olúfẹ́mi O. Táíwò, Cornel West, Judith Butler, and Cedric Johnson. These are all national figures getting published in books, magazines, etc. who all use the phrase "identity politics" to this day to communicate meaningfully about ... identity politics.
In my experience, people with socialist politics are most likely to be familiar with the "classical" definition, and they still use it in that sense because it is perfectly descriptive and is a perfectly respectful way to refer to the ideas set forth in the Combahee River Collective Statement and related texts.
Those folks also represent a spectrum of views on the thing they'd all refer to as "identity politics," from somewhat hostile (Reed), to "wow this sure has come to mean a lot of things to a lot of people" (Butler), and on through to "generally on board and would like to harmonize it with other left currents that are sometimes too dismissive of it" (Táíwò).
posted by Pudding Yeti at 4:23 PM on December 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
Studied under Habermas, identifies with the Franfurt School, doesn't like identity politics much.
Wait, are we keeping files on our enemies now?
If the dude's Wikipedia page counts as "files," I guess someone is.
posted by Pudding Yeti at 4:25 PM on December 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Wait, are we keeping files on our enemies now?
If the dude's Wikipedia page counts as "files," I guess someone is.
posted by Pudding Yeti at 4:25 PM on December 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is a great chaser for the shot of the "films aren't allowed to be horny anymore" essay, or vice versa.
It makes me wonder how many essays like these we're required to have per year, there has to be some quota right?
posted by emptythought at 4:59 PM on December 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
It makes me wonder how many essays like these we're required to have per year, there has to be some quota right?
posted by emptythought at 4:59 PM on December 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think you should remember whose side you are on. - Mark E. Smith (1957-2018)
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:24 AM on December 4, 2023
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:24 AM on December 4, 2023
I'd be curious to do that analysis particularly on the situation at Reddit this summer. That was not only an uproar in words, but it led to mass shutdowns of subreddits and community flight to other platforms. Am I right in believing it worked?
It did not work. The cause of the protests was because 3rd party apps for using reddit were going to be priced out by a very high API fee, making life much harder for moderators (and the disabled) who relied on them. Quite a lot of long-standing moderators quit, but support for the shutdowns started to peter out ( a fair few users basically going 'I want things back to normal now, I don't care about this'), combined with Reddit force-replacing mods of some holdouts with quislings, and threatening to do the same to the rest. The API fees are in place, most 3rd party apps are now gone, all the big subs are re-open, and while reddit has taken a hit in terms of visitor numbers, it's not been that large, relatively speaking. The loss of many experienced mods, and smaller communities closing due to their sole active mod leaving, may have a significant long-term impact on reddit quality (such as it is) but given the plan is for an IPO soon where Spez et al will cash out, who cares about that, obvs.
When it comes to other 'cancellations', I'm curious how those sexual predators ID'd before and as part of the #metoo movement hare fared. Some, such as Weinstein have faced legal consequences, while Depp has not, but the feeling I get is that a number have started to worm their way back into public view; I've no idea on any statistics behind that though.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:08 AM on December 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
It did not work. The cause of the protests was because 3rd party apps for using reddit were going to be priced out by a very high API fee, making life much harder for moderators (and the disabled) who relied on them. Quite a lot of long-standing moderators quit, but support for the shutdowns started to peter out ( a fair few users basically going 'I want things back to normal now, I don't care about this'), combined with Reddit force-replacing mods of some holdouts with quislings, and threatening to do the same to the rest. The API fees are in place, most 3rd party apps are now gone, all the big subs are re-open, and while reddit has taken a hit in terms of visitor numbers, it's not been that large, relatively speaking. The loss of many experienced mods, and smaller communities closing due to their sole active mod leaving, may have a significant long-term impact on reddit quality (such as it is) but given the plan is for an IPO soon where Spez et al will cash out, who cares about that, obvs.
When it comes to other 'cancellations', I'm curious how those sexual predators ID'd before and as part of the #metoo movement hare fared. Some, such as Weinstein have faced legal consequences, while Depp has not, but the feeling I get is that a number have started to worm their way back into public view; I've no idea on any statistics behind that though.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:08 AM on December 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I made an exception to my policy of not reading substacks.
And yeah I'm probably part of a generational shift. When I was young I would watch every electoral debate for which I was a voter in. And over time I concluded that there was not much value there and I'd be better served by reading platforms and the commentary on same, along with paying attention to votes in parliament or council as applicable. Joseph Heath does not say what "traditional political argumentation" is, but if he's talking about time-boxed debate I'm not interested. There are other, better fora.
posted by mscibing at 6:49 PM on December 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
This unfortunately gave rise to an entire cohort of young people who seem to feel exempt from the obligation to engage in traditional political argumentation. They became convinced that they had no need to defend their views, they could just assemble an online mob to intimidate anyone who disagreed with them.I don't have a mob at my beck and call. I'm not young people anymore, but I doubt many young people can just assemble an online mob either. But the thing is, if you're not in debate club you don't actually have to follow the rules of debate club. Members in parliament may have to maintain the pretence that the honourable member from Dunny-on-the-Wold is in fact honourable, but the rest of us don't. Neither do we have to waste time listening to liars.
And yeah I'm probably part of a generational shift. When I was young I would watch every electoral debate for which I was a voter in. And over time I concluded that there was not much value there and I'd be better served by reading platforms and the commentary on same, along with paying attention to votes in parliament or council as applicable. Joseph Heath does not say what "traditional political argumentation" is, but if he's talking about time-boxed debate I'm not interested. There are other, better fora.
posted by mscibing at 6:49 PM on December 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
This was a fluffy article full of vague assumptions and including many assertions without evidence, even anecdotal.
posted by Room 101 at 10:02 AM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Room 101 at 10:02 AM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
The author needs to learn that when you're making a case, just repeating your assertion over and over is not an argument. He keeps saying that anyone who argues that "cancel culture" is not an existential cultural threat is wrong. Over and over. But he never actually makes the argument, just the assertion.
The post about the dishwasher was from a subreddit called /r/mildlyinfuriating. The name tells you it's for things that are not a big deal and that the people venting there are owning that they are overreacting. If you want to see some brigading, go to /r/aita or something, and even there the moderators make a point of reining people in.
Jordan Peterson still has his soapbox and is still yapping away on it. Like most people who get held up as examples of being "canceled", he's still around, employed, and surrounded by fans.
posted by Karmakaze at 11:02 AM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The post about the dishwasher was from a subreddit called /r/mildlyinfuriating. The name tells you it's for things that are not a big deal and that the people venting there are owning that they are overreacting. If you want to see some brigading, go to /r/aita or something, and even there the moderators make a point of reining people in.
Jordan Peterson still has his soapbox and is still yapping away on it. Like most people who get held up as examples of being "canceled", he's still around, employed, and surrounded by fans.
posted by Karmakaze at 11:02 AM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The only recent cancellation I can think of that really took was T.J. Miller, and that was more about him being uninsurably unstable rather than declared an enemy of the collective or whatever this dude is worrying about.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:27 AM on December 7, 2023
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:27 AM on December 7, 2023
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posted by splitpeasoup at 8:27 PM on December 2, 2023 [64 favorites]