Engineered stone will be banned in Australia in world-first decision
December 13, 2023 8:17 PM Subscribe
Engineered stone will be banned in Australia in world-first decision.
Australia's workplace ministers have agreed to implement a national ban on engineered stone (composite material used for granite-look kitchen benchtops), because its use has led to a surge in silicosis cases (painful, disabling and fatal lung disease) among workers.
Safe Work found that while silicosis cases could emerge in several industries, the numbers were disproportionate among engineered stone workers.
Engineered stone workers also suffered a faster disease progression and were more likely to die from it, the report said.
The majority of engineered stone workers diagnosed with silicosis were under 35.
What a shame - I had no idea it was dangerous for workers. I just thought of it as cheaper and more durable than some natural stone. But it's not worth hurting (really killing) people.
posted by jb at 8:56 PM on December 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by jb at 8:56 PM on December 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Wow. I have read a bout how bad it is when workers are not given the proper PPE, but an outright ban is really strong. We have engineered stone installed by a bunch of middle aged dudes who are all smokers. They also did my in-laws cabin at elevation and were noticeably winded. Hopefully they wore masks in the fabrication shop.
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:56 PM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:56 PM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
It is worth noting that America’s worst industrial disaster involved hundreds on tunnel diggers getting silicosis from digging a hydro tunnel by hand with no PPE
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:58 PM on December 13, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:58 PM on December 13, 2023 [17 favorites]
https://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/episodes/block/102953172
posted by emf at 9:03 PM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by emf at 9:03 PM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
When I was working in a jewelry production house in the early Nineties, I was doing the casting for the molds and was working with a lot of very very fine plaster of paris, which is very much a silicosis progenitor. I had been told that I needed to be sure to be blowing out any time there might be powder floating in the air, during measuring and mixing. But there was no actual training given or PPE offered. And I didn't know there was any that I should be asking about.
Thus far I've no indication of silicosis, for which I'm glad. I hope it remains that way.
posted by hippybear at 9:09 PM on December 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Thus far I've no indication of silicosis, for which I'm glad. I hope it remains that way.
posted by hippybear at 9:09 PM on December 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Damn. I really like my engineered quartz countertops, and was planning to have them again in part of my kitchen after a remodel in about five years. What is a good alternative material? I had planned to do a combination of stainless steel and some kind of low maintenance material that feels less industrial. I guess I need to start keeping a whole file of research for this kind of stuff - I know there won’t be a perfect material but I’d like to keep the deaths to a minimum, you know?
posted by Mizu at 9:19 PM on December 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 9:19 PM on December 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm surprised this can't be managed with PPE, but obviously it isn't being.
posted by praemunire at 9:19 PM on December 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 9:19 PM on December 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
The Cowboy Junkies: Mining For Gold
Meanwhile, there's some shitty startup trying to build prefab modular houses out of the stuff. I feel like it was covered on Trashfuture, but I can't find the episode now.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:44 PM on December 13, 2023
Meanwhile, there's some shitty startup trying to build prefab modular houses out of the stuff. I feel like it was covered on Trashfuture, but I can't find the episode now.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:44 PM on December 13, 2023
What is a good alternative material?
This depends on where you are, and what kind of stone is quarried near you, and what grade you want to use. Rocks are heavy as shit, and shipping stone costs a lot. It also depends on the slab you are choosing, the ones that look prettier, are going to cost more.
Slate can be generally fairly cheap, in many areas (slate is prone to chip however, but wears in nicely too). There are grades of granite that are cheaper than engineered stone.
We had soapstone put in our kitchen this past summer; it was the same price as engineered stone. If you're in the NE, granite can be had cheap, as can soapstone. We went with soapstone, because, even though it can scratch and chip, it patinas very well, and gains a lot of character over time. I've seen 'worn in' soapstone countertops, and they are really nice. Even the installers let us know, that the aesthetic of soapstone just increases with time as it wears in a bit. The dudes installing it were genuinely stoked we weren't doing something else, and said that it was an underutilized stone.
posted by furnace.heart at 9:47 PM on December 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
This depends on where you are, and what kind of stone is quarried near you, and what grade you want to use. Rocks are heavy as shit, and shipping stone costs a lot. It also depends on the slab you are choosing, the ones that look prettier, are going to cost more.
Slate can be generally fairly cheap, in many areas (slate is prone to chip however, but wears in nicely too). There are grades of granite that are cheaper than engineered stone.
We had soapstone put in our kitchen this past summer; it was the same price as engineered stone. If you're in the NE, granite can be had cheap, as can soapstone. We went with soapstone, because, even though it can scratch and chip, it patinas very well, and gains a lot of character over time. I've seen 'worn in' soapstone countertops, and they are really nice. Even the installers let us know, that the aesthetic of soapstone just increases with time as it wears in a bit. The dudes installing it were genuinely stoked we weren't doing something else, and said that it was an underutilized stone.
posted by furnace.heart at 9:47 PM on December 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
And also, from this September:
California workers who cut countertops are dying of an incurable disease [LAT]
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:50 PM on December 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
California workers who cut countertops are dying of an incurable disease [LAT]
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:50 PM on December 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
I have an Internet friend who is very passionate about the prevention of occupational lung disease, and I was excited to send them this article and see if they had heard about the ban in Australia yet. They have educated me a lot about how horrifically dangerous manufactured stone is.
posted by Tesseractive at 9:52 PM on December 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Tesseractive at 9:52 PM on December 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
When engineered stone countertops are installed, it’s very common for installers, professional and DYI alike, to grind substantial parts of the edges away to achieve final fit in any specific kitchen.
Almost no DYIers and few professional installers are using PPE to a very high probability, and substantial numbers of residents of the homes in question are likely to have been exposed.
The stats make it sound like the resin is somehow producing higher rates of silicosis than silica dust would by itself.
The leading hypothesis about why exposure to asbestos fibers is so much more dangerous than exposure to comparable glass fibers, is that asbestos fibers are impervious to body chemistry, while comparable glass fibers in similar circumstances dissolve away over periods of a few years, so it seems possible to me that a resin coating is keeping the silica from being dissolved away and that's the problem.
posted by jamjam at 9:53 PM on December 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Almost no DYIers and few professional installers are using PPE to a very high probability, and substantial numbers of residents of the homes in question are likely to have been exposed.
The stats make it sound like the resin is somehow producing higher rates of silicosis than silica dust would by itself.
The leading hypothesis about why exposure to asbestos fibers is so much more dangerous than exposure to comparable glass fibers, is that asbestos fibers are impervious to body chemistry, while comparable glass fibers in similar circumstances dissolve away over periods of a few years, so it seems possible to me that a resin coating is keeping the silica from being dissolved away and that's the problem.
posted by jamjam at 9:53 PM on December 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
What is the allure for using stone of any kind over, just, like a regular countertop? What is it normally, wood with some kind of thing on top of it, or something similar?
posted by hippybear at 9:54 PM on December 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:54 PM on December 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I had been told that I needed to be sure to be blowing out
Well there's your solution right there - - workers just need to stop breathing in.
posted by fairmettle at 9:56 PM on December 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Well there's your solution right there - - workers just need to stop breathing in.
posted by fairmettle at 9:56 PM on December 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Typically it's particle board (a heavy wood composite) covered with Formica (melamine resin-impregnated paper). It doesn't look as good as stone or stone composite, and isn't as moisture-resistant. The pigments in the paper can also fade if exposed to the sun.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:03 PM on December 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:03 PM on December 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
The recent Behind the Bastards series on the Hawks Nest Tunnel Disaster goes into the giant mess that the then-newly-created Union Carbide created. Should have been the last thing they did. What a shitshow.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:07 PM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:07 PM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Almost no DYIers and few professional installers are using PPE to a very high probability
Or, as that LAT article gets into, doing 'wet cutting.'
What is the allure for using stone of any kind over, just, like a regular countertop? What is it normally, wood with some kind of thing on top of it, or something similar?
Durability, impervious to temperature and largely non-reactive, little to no upkeep or refinishing required, looks and status.
Formica and wood will scorch and stain and otherwise wear, tile can crack and the grout gets dirty and erodes.
(Of course, some people negate those advantages by choosing materials like white marble. And concrete has most of those features, and can be polished up nicely.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:10 PM on December 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Or, as that LAT article gets into, doing 'wet cutting.'
What is the allure for using stone of any kind over, just, like a regular countertop? What is it normally, wood with some kind of thing on top of it, or something similar?
Durability, impervious to temperature and largely non-reactive, little to no upkeep or refinishing required, looks and status.
Formica and wood will scorch and stain and otherwise wear, tile can crack and the grout gets dirty and erodes.
(Of course, some people negate those advantages by choosing materials like white marble. And concrete has most of those features, and can be polished up nicely.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:10 PM on December 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
What is the allure for using stone of any kind...
As far as I can tell, every human being who appears in more than ten seconds of footage on HGTV is contractually obligated to gush over granite countertops. (And crown molding for some reason...) So that's the standard in America and Canada at least. Why do they gush over it? Well, because it's expensive and fancy and thus aspirational for many. Why would they gush over something that's not fancy?
What is it normally, wood with some kind of thing on top of it, or something similar?
Yeah, "normal" countertops are often laminate, which is basically a layer of plastic over a composite wood-ish material (particle board, etc.). Laminate is super durable, easy to care for, and can be manufactured with whatever color/pattern/look you want. Oh, but it's inexpensive. That's nothing to aspire to. (And to be fair, it can't have the translucent sparkly bits that stone can have. Sparkly bits are nice I guess.)
posted by whatnotever at 10:16 PM on December 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
As far as I can tell, every human being who appears in more than ten seconds of footage on HGTV is contractually obligated to gush over granite countertops. (And crown molding for some reason...) So that's the standard in America and Canada at least. Why do they gush over it? Well, because it's expensive and fancy and thus aspirational for many. Why would they gush over something that's not fancy?
What is it normally, wood with some kind of thing on top of it, or something similar?
Yeah, "normal" countertops are often laminate, which is basically a layer of plastic over a composite wood-ish material (particle board, etc.). Laminate is super durable, easy to care for, and can be manufactured with whatever color/pattern/look you want. Oh, but it's inexpensive. That's nothing to aspire to. (And to be fair, it can't have the translucent sparkly bits that stone can have. Sparkly bits are nice I guess.)
posted by whatnotever at 10:16 PM on December 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think the sparkly ones are epoxy.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:17 PM on December 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:17 PM on December 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
praemunire "I'm surprised this can't be managed with PPE, but obviously it isn't being."
I used to saw, drill, grind and scabble concrete - and work with fibreglass. Even for simple dry dusts it's very hard to keep them completely out - and wet cutting is not always an option; the whole building often ends up 'soaked' in dust, in the bath rooms, lockers, drifting into reception. I know PPE has improved since I worked with dusts - but management has gotten worse, unionisation is scarcer, and new compounds have come to market.
Sounds like the resin is epoxy - when I built boats no one had problems with normal resin but epoxies really mess people up, I left industry shortly after working with epoxy as they were make me feel sick and weird.
posted by unearthed at 10:28 PM on December 13, 2023 [19 favorites]
I used to saw, drill, grind and scabble concrete - and work with fibreglass. Even for simple dry dusts it's very hard to keep them completely out - and wet cutting is not always an option; the whole building often ends up 'soaked' in dust, in the bath rooms, lockers, drifting into reception. I know PPE has improved since I worked with dusts - but management has gotten worse, unionisation is scarcer, and new compounds have come to market.
Sounds like the resin is epoxy - when I built boats no one had problems with normal resin but epoxies really mess people up, I left industry shortly after working with epoxy as they were make me feel sick and weird.
posted by unearthed at 10:28 PM on December 13, 2023 [19 favorites]
I know a guy out in Hawaii who built a fibreglass boat hull — once. He said he'd never do it again, due to the occupational hazards (and he had full control of the situation). His previous jobs had included divemaster and meat-cutter.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:32 PM on December 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:32 PM on December 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
As far as I can tell, every human being who appears in more than ten seconds of footage on HGTV is contractually obligated to gush over granite countertops. (And crown molding for some reason...) So that's the standard in America and Canada at least. Why do they gush over it? Well, because it's expensive and fancy and thus aspirational for many. Why would they gush over something that's not fancy?I can attest to this. Almost 20 years ago, when I first purchased the house in which I live, my first priority was to fix up the downstairs rental apartment to get some money coming in. To do the work I hired a handyman who was married to one of my sibling's Coast Guard colleagues.
When it came time to price out countertop materials for the small kitchen, the local countertop place wanted $x for two small wood and formica countertops, while the handyman I had hired had half a slab of granite left over from the remodel he and his wife had just finished on their own kitchen, which they were willing to sell me for $x+100.
The modest price difference, plus the option of kicking a bit more cash to the person who was working for me - while using up material that was otherwise going to waste - made selecting their leftover granite a no-brainer so we went ahead with that plan.
And I am not exaggerating when I say that over the 20 years since, every prospective tenant who came to look at the modest lower-floor apartment in my creaky old home commented immediately and admiringly about the granite countertops. It was probably less than 10 feet of counter space, divided into two chunks, but it was the first thing anyone ever reacted to when coming into the space (other than maybe the low ceiling..) I've been making jokes about HGTV Pavlovian conditioning for years as a result.
Anyway.. those counters are now gone and that apartment is about 80% of the way through a full overhaul (after having amicably housed a number of wonderful tenants over those 20 years.) I'm on the cusp of making decisions about materials for new countertops and had no ideas about the danger manufactured stone products can cause to installers so this is a timely story for me. Manufactured stone products were among my likely picks before reading the article, now I'll seek elsewhere.
posted by Nerd of the North at 10:44 PM on December 13, 2023 [21 favorites]
stainless steel and some kind of low maintenance material that feels less industrial
Or meditate on the virtues of stainless until it is beautiful because of them. Stainless is light and recyclable, afaik it’s worked in less dusty ways, it’s easy to clean. If a kitchen is busy enough that laminate will wear out, it’s busy enough for something industrial.
posted by clew at 10:58 PM on December 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Or meditate on the virtues of stainless until it is beautiful because of them. Stainless is light and recyclable, afaik it’s worked in less dusty ways, it’s easy to clean. If a kitchen is busy enough that laminate will wear out, it’s busy enough for something industrial.
posted by clew at 10:58 PM on December 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
As far as I can tell, every human being who appears in more than ten seconds of footage on HGTV is contractually obligated to gush over granite countertops.
Granite is a natural stone material; not the kind of engineered material we're discussing here.
Laminate is super durable, easy to care for, and can be manufactured with whatever color/pattern/look you want.
It's not heat-resistant. You put a hot pan on it and it melts. So pretty much a non-starter for kitchens in which cooking is actually being performed.
Of course, some people negate those advantages by choosing materials like white marble.
Marble stains so easily though.
Or meditate on the virtues of stainless until it is beautiful because of them. Stainless is light and recyclable, afaik it’s worked in less dusty ways, it’s easy to clean.
This is the obvious answer. Counters that are used for serious cooking should be made from stainless steel. It's the perfect material for this application. Unfortunately, I couldn't convince my partner of this ***obvious*** point when we remodeled our kitchen earlier this year, so we went for the engineered stone. Got in before we knew it was evil!
posted by mr_roboto at 11:04 PM on December 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Granite is a natural stone material; not the kind of engineered material we're discussing here.
Laminate is super durable, easy to care for, and can be manufactured with whatever color/pattern/look you want.
It's not heat-resistant. You put a hot pan on it and it melts. So pretty much a non-starter for kitchens in which cooking is actually being performed.
Of course, some people negate those advantages by choosing materials like white marble.
Marble stains so easily though.
Or meditate on the virtues of stainless until it is beautiful because of them. Stainless is light and recyclable, afaik it’s worked in less dusty ways, it’s easy to clean.
This is the obvious answer. Counters that are used for serious cooking should be made from stainless steel. It's the perfect material for this application. Unfortunately, I couldn't convince my partner of this ***obvious*** point when we remodeled our kitchen earlier this year, so we went for the engineered stone. Got in before we knew it was evil!
posted by mr_roboto at 11:04 PM on December 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
What is it normally, wood with some kind of thing on top of it, or something similar?
There's also things such as Corian which is not considered an engineered stone. My mother put it in her kitchen a couple of decades ago and it's gone great for her. Impervious, easy to clean and looks decent - better than most marble in my opinion.
I gather (from a case mentioned on Wikipedia) that you don't want to breathe Corian dust in either.
posted by GeorgeBickham at 11:19 PM on December 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
There's also things such as Corian which is not considered an engineered stone. My mother put it in her kitchen a couple of decades ago and it's gone great for her. Impervious, easy to clean and looks decent - better than most marble in my opinion.
I gather (from a case mentioned on Wikipedia) that you don't want to breathe Corian dust in either.
posted by GeorgeBickham at 11:19 PM on December 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Never fear, the plan is *mostly* stainless steel, especially around the sink and stove and a much-desired island. But if I’m dumping all my time and money into what will hopefully be my forever kitchen, I also want some counter space for eating at and to transition visually to the rest of the house which will be a hodgepodge of lots of wood, brightly hand painted surfaces, aged bronze and terracotta tiles, and stainless just doesn’t quite vibe. Heat and stain resistance is absolutely key though, I haven’t had to deal with meltable counters in decades and I’m not going to start if I have the choice. It seems like cement might be a good angle to take, and I love the idea of stone but I am concerned about chips because I’m just about the opposite of graceful. I’m in Seattle so I’m gonna spend some time now looking at our local materials because that’s a very good point about shipping costs. Goodness knows we have plenty of cool rocks here.
posted by Mizu at 11:22 PM on December 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 11:22 PM on December 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Some technical comments from an industrial hygienist.
They say since working in the field since 2005, the sites they audit have always been able to meet the OSHA permissible exposure limit (PEL) for silica exposure when following best practices. This is even after the regulations were made more strict in 2016, making 50 µg/m3 the limit.
Then something changed in 2017 - sampling results started coming back multiple times higher than the OSHA limit even when following best practices, and as much as 40x the OSHA limit when those practices were not followed. It was the introduction of engineered stone tops.
Engineered stone is 90–97 percent crystalline silica content (quartz), versus granite at 10–45 percent silica content or marble at 5% silica content. However the real danger with engineered stone is that the quartz has already been crushed once and blended with a resin binder: cutting it again exposes workers to much smaller nanoparticles which may even evade lower grade mask filters.
Breathing in any dust is bad - cutting MDF wood is associated with cancer due to free formaldehyde in the dust. And other alternatives like natural stone or polished concrete also carry risks. But engineered stone is super super bad so the ban is a good one.
---
As for alternatives -
The first two houses we had used cheap laminate benchtops. We recently built a fantastic new house with a bulk builder (280sqm single story) for about A$290,000 total and it came standard with engineered stone benchtops in the kitchen and bathrooms.
We will probably go back to laminate if we build another house. Those two laminate benchtops have never been harmed even after 20-30 years of use (not just by us, but by previous owners). Making sure you have a silicone / cork placemat or metal grille in place to place your pots and pans seems like a totally practical and normal thing to do to protect it from heat and physical impact. I actually feel like we have to baby the engineered stone way more than laminate which is annoying.
posted by xdvesper at 11:40 PM on December 13, 2023 [25 favorites]
They say since working in the field since 2005, the sites they audit have always been able to meet the OSHA permissible exposure limit (PEL) for silica exposure when following best practices. This is even after the regulations were made more strict in 2016, making 50 µg/m3 the limit.
Then something changed in 2017 - sampling results started coming back multiple times higher than the OSHA limit even when following best practices, and as much as 40x the OSHA limit when those practices were not followed. It was the introduction of engineered stone tops.
Engineered stone is 90–97 percent crystalline silica content (quartz), versus granite at 10–45 percent silica content or marble at 5% silica content. However the real danger with engineered stone is that the quartz has already been crushed once and blended with a resin binder: cutting it again exposes workers to much smaller nanoparticles which may even evade lower grade mask filters.
Breathing in any dust is bad - cutting MDF wood is associated with cancer due to free formaldehyde in the dust. And other alternatives like natural stone or polished concrete also carry risks. But engineered stone is super super bad so the ban is a good one.
---
As for alternatives -
The first two houses we had used cheap laminate benchtops. We recently built a fantastic new house with a bulk builder (280sqm single story) for about A$290,000 total and it came standard with engineered stone benchtops in the kitchen and bathrooms.
We will probably go back to laminate if we build another house. Those two laminate benchtops have never been harmed even after 20-30 years of use (not just by us, but by previous owners). Making sure you have a silicone / cork placemat or metal grille in place to place your pots and pans seems like a totally practical and normal thing to do to protect it from heat and physical impact. I actually feel like we have to baby the engineered stone way more than laminate which is annoying.
posted by xdvesper at 11:40 PM on December 13, 2023 [25 favorites]
(Maple butcher block, end-grain if you can swing it, is my ideal countertop. And side grain is fine too.)
posted by away for regrooving at 12:12 AM on December 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by away for regrooving at 12:12 AM on December 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
stainless steel and some kind of low maintenance material that feels less industrial
Essentially that's what we did, stainless benches around the sinks (one side of the kitchen) and granite for the other, we used an offcut from the granite top in the bathroom vanity, and gave the rest to a friend
posted by mbo at 2:37 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Essentially that's what we did, stainless benches around the sinks (one side of the kitchen) and granite for the other, we used an offcut from the granite top in the bathroom vanity, and gave the rest to a friend
posted by mbo at 2:37 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mizu, look into Paperstone/Richlite. It's produced in Washington State. It's not free of resins/epoxy, but is a compressed paper product that's incredibly durable, warm, looks great, low maintenance. Don't be worried that it starts as a paper product, it doesn't swell and is hard as stone.
posted by jellywerker at 2:49 AM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by jellywerker at 2:49 AM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
I used to work in a bronze casting foundry. Silicosis is a risk there as well because of the silicon based molds.
PPE is not as straightforward a solution as it might seem. It's not just about masks. Dust gets everywhere in a space it gets stirred up, and has to be extracted... how, and to where?
People also don't wear PPE unless they're forced to, no matter how well they understand the consequences. And many bosses just won't make sure their workers are safe.
Much better to remove the cause.
posted by Zumbador at 3:04 AM on December 14, 2023 [16 favorites]
PPE is not as straightforward a solution as it might seem. It's not just about masks. Dust gets everywhere in a space it gets stirred up, and has to be extracted... how, and to where?
People also don't wear PPE unless they're forced to, no matter how well they understand the consequences. And many bosses just won't make sure their workers are safe.
Much better to remove the cause.
posted by Zumbador at 3:04 AM on December 14, 2023 [16 favorites]
It’s good to see Australia leading the way on this issue- and the political will comes from our terrible history with asbestosis since we have had some of the highest mesothelioma rates in the world. Much of the last two decades has been filled with inquiries and lawsuits against the suppliers of building materials who knew of the dangers but did not do enough to prevent harm.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5858453/
posted by Flecks of light at 3:48 AM on December 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5858453/
posted by Flecks of light at 3:48 AM on December 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
> When I was working in a jewelry production house in the early Nineties, I was doing the casting for the molds and was working with a lot of very very fine plaster of paris, which is very much a silicosis progenitor. I had been told that I needed to be sure to be blowing out any time there might be powder floating in the air, during measuring and mixing. But there was no actual training given or PPE offered. And I didn't know there was any that I should be asking about.
Ooof, that's not great! I was doing lost-wax casting in the early 2000s, and we definitely used respirators, because as Zumbador says, it's a known silicosis risk. I did actually take it seriously, and the foundry I was at did take it reasonably seriously too - a dedicated ventilated room for the silica slurry, with respirator requirements. Labs I've worked in have similarly (mostly) kept silica for (chromatography) columns in dedicated areas, required lab members to wear ventilators when working it outside of a fume hood, etc. But yeah, inculcating a work culture where PPE use is expected is more challenging than it should be, and if the people in charge aren't leading by example... yeah.
posted by ASF Tod und Schwerkraft at 3:49 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ooof, that's not great! I was doing lost-wax casting in the early 2000s, and we definitely used respirators, because as Zumbador says, it's a known silicosis risk. I did actually take it seriously, and the foundry I was at did take it reasonably seriously too - a dedicated ventilated room for the silica slurry, with respirator requirements. Labs I've worked in have similarly (mostly) kept silica for (chromatography) columns in dedicated areas, required lab members to wear ventilators when working it outside of a fume hood, etc. But yeah, inculcating a work culture where PPE use is expected is more challenging than it should be, and if the people in charge aren't leading by example... yeah.
posted by ASF Tod und Schwerkraft at 3:49 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Actually, on this PPE topic... even if PPE exists, this still represents an unacceptable failure mode.
With a hot object, you wear gloves to handle it, and the moment you touch the object without gloves you'd recoil because it was obvious it was dangerous, thus preventing you from serious harm. While with silicosis, you could build up a fatal dose while feeling perfectly fine, then die a year later. And out of thousands of workers, there's going to be a substantial number who will for whatever reason not wear the PPE properly, because of tiredness, carelessness, mental impairment, greed from their employer, unsafe culture, etc.
The PPE thing reminds me of (randomly) of the Virgin Galactic spaceship crash (Admiral Cloudberg's summary). As the spacecraft accelerated towards space, the pilot had to unlock the tail feather system between Mach 1.4 and Mach 1.8. Before Mach 1.4, the aircraft is flying in what is termed as the transonic region, where airflow over some surfaces is subsonic while airflow over other surfaces is supersonic - which causes unpredictable shifts in aerodynamic forces as the plane continues accelerating. Past Mach 1.4 all airflow is supersonic and the aero profile is stable. Unlocking the system during transonic flight would basically self-destruct the spacecraft.
Inexplicably, the pilot correctly called out his speed as Mach 0.8 then unlocked the tail feather system at Mach 0.9, causing the immediate destruction of the spacecraft and his death.
The NTSB asked Scaled Composites why the design of the spacecraft allowed the pilot to deploy the tail feather system at a speed that would result in its destruction... and they answered that they didn't think a pilot would ever do it.
It only took 6.3 hours of test flight for a pilot to do exactly that.
From the article - "One of the basic assumptions made during modern aircraft design is that if a pilot can do something, some pilot somewhere eventually will."
If we can't trust supposedly the most elite pilots in the world not to make a mistake and kill themselves, there's no sense that we would expect trade apprentices earning close to minimum wage to wear their PPE perfectly every time or else die a horrible death.
posted by xdvesper at 4:14 AM on December 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
With a hot object, you wear gloves to handle it, and the moment you touch the object without gloves you'd recoil because it was obvious it was dangerous, thus preventing you from serious harm. While with silicosis, you could build up a fatal dose while feeling perfectly fine, then die a year later. And out of thousands of workers, there's going to be a substantial number who will for whatever reason not wear the PPE properly, because of tiredness, carelessness, mental impairment, greed from their employer, unsafe culture, etc.
The PPE thing reminds me of (randomly) of the Virgin Galactic spaceship crash (Admiral Cloudberg's summary). As the spacecraft accelerated towards space, the pilot had to unlock the tail feather system between Mach 1.4 and Mach 1.8. Before Mach 1.4, the aircraft is flying in what is termed as the transonic region, where airflow over some surfaces is subsonic while airflow over other surfaces is supersonic - which causes unpredictable shifts in aerodynamic forces as the plane continues accelerating. Past Mach 1.4 all airflow is supersonic and the aero profile is stable. Unlocking the system during transonic flight would basically self-destruct the spacecraft.
Inexplicably, the pilot correctly called out his speed as Mach 0.8 then unlocked the tail feather system at Mach 0.9, causing the immediate destruction of the spacecraft and his death.
The NTSB asked Scaled Composites why the design of the spacecraft allowed the pilot to deploy the tail feather system at a speed that would result in its destruction... and they answered that they didn't think a pilot would ever do it.
It only took 6.3 hours of test flight for a pilot to do exactly that.
From the article - "One of the basic assumptions made during modern aircraft design is that if a pilot can do something, some pilot somewhere eventually will."
If we can't trust supposedly the most elite pilots in the world not to make a mistake and kill themselves, there's no sense that we would expect trade apprentices earning close to minimum wage to wear their PPE perfectly every time or else die a horrible death.
posted by xdvesper at 4:14 AM on December 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
My grandparents put in a stainless counter sometime in the 40’s, probably fabricated by someone at my grandfather’s workplace. It was still in place when we sold the house a couple of years ago, along with the rusting cast iron sink where my grandmother would wet paper towels and wipe frosting from my face in the early 70’s. Knowing the counter would be ripped out by the new owners, I half wondered whether I could salvage it for my own house.
I now have a slab of Paperstone on an island. Contra jellywerker above it’s not nearly as hard as stone, but I prefer it that way. It can be worked with common woodworking tools, so it’s much friendlier to DIY efforts. It’s not glossy, which is also a plus for me. Unlike laminate, it works with undermount sinks. The palette of available colors, however, is very limited.
I’ve always been bothered by durability as a justification for using stone, given how frequently most kitchens get remodeled for reasons having nothing to do with the condition of the countertops.
posted by jon1270 at 4:23 AM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I now have a slab of Paperstone on an island. Contra jellywerker above it’s not nearly as hard as stone, but I prefer it that way. It can be worked with common woodworking tools, so it’s much friendlier to DIY efforts. It’s not glossy, which is also a plus for me. Unlike laminate, it works with undermount sinks. The palette of available colors, however, is very limited.
I’ve always been bothered by durability as a justification for using stone, given how frequently most kitchens get remodeled for reasons having nothing to do with the condition of the countertops.
posted by jon1270 at 4:23 AM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
> There's also things such as Corian which is not considered an engineered stone.
Looking it up, it does seem to be a different material:
Looking it up, it does seem to be a different material:
Solid surface is manufactured by mixing acrylic, epoxide or polyester resin with powdered bauxite filler and pigments. The material chemically cures and is heated to 60 °C or more.posted by sebastienbailard at 4:24 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_surface
Laminate is super durable, easy to care for, and can be manufactured with whatever color/pattern/look you want.As someone who cooks a bunch in a formica kitchen, all you need is half a dozen Trivets.
It's not heat-resistant. You put a hot pan on it and it melts. So pretty much a non-starter for kitchens in which cooking is actually being performed.
posted by zymil at 4:30 AM on December 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
When I was in my early twenties I was told to stand on top of a giant bottle soaker at Molson Breweries with a suction cup screwdriver and pull bottles out of the honeycomb bottle transport to check for broken glass. The bottle soaker was an olympic swimming pool sized machine that was where the brewery cleaned the returned beer bottles using caustic acids before refilling them. So essentially I spent a week on top of a massive machine with about 20 other twenty year old kids breathing in heated caustic acid fumes for about 7 hours a day.
It's part of what broke my union identification because not one of the union reps protected us and not one of the union members was on top of the machine with us. They were perfectly willing to throw summer temp kids to capitalist wolves. We did still have to pay union dues from our paychecks though and we were the only reason those full-time union brewery workers got summer vacations (summer being peak beer demand season and all).
Bosses will of course be bosses and fuck you over but so will your fellow workers who have higher status. I wish I had trusted my own judgement back then because I knew it was bad to be up there on top of that machine. We even had to put layers of broken down beer case cardboard because otherwise the steel plates in our work boots would heat up and burn our feet.
This is why you have to outright ban shit. Ordinary people are often casually situationally evil if you let those situations exist. One of the harder aspects of being an immigrant in America is grappling with the reality that there is an entire political party dedicated to creating situational evil opportunities as a core principle and they get about half the vote! Australia bans this now. The United States? Maybe never.
posted by srboisvert at 4:39 AM on December 14, 2023 [27 favorites]
It's part of what broke my union identification because not one of the union reps protected us and not one of the union members was on top of the machine with us. They were perfectly willing to throw summer temp kids to capitalist wolves. We did still have to pay union dues from our paychecks though and we were the only reason those full-time union brewery workers got summer vacations (summer being peak beer demand season and all).
Bosses will of course be bosses and fuck you over but so will your fellow workers who have higher status. I wish I had trusted my own judgement back then because I knew it was bad to be up there on top of that machine. We even had to put layers of broken down beer case cardboard because otherwise the steel plates in our work boots would heat up and burn our feet.
This is why you have to outright ban shit. Ordinary people are often casually situationally evil if you let those situations exist. One of the harder aspects of being an immigrant in America is grappling with the reality that there is an entire political party dedicated to creating situational evil opportunities as a core principle and they get about half the vote! Australia bans this now. The United States? Maybe never.
posted by srboisvert at 4:39 AM on December 14, 2023 [27 favorites]
Engineered stone is not intrinsically unsafe. It's unsafe to be cut & shaped under our current work culture (and by extension, capitalism as practiced).
All fabrication that makes micron-sized dust and smaller should have dust mitigation (like wetting), serious air exchange/filtration/extraction and ppe.
But because it's cheaper not to do that - and also because we have a culture around "if it looks safe...just do it" (especially in the trades).... we let people become crippled and die horribly.
As xdvesper notes above, engineered stone, because of its makeup, generates a lot of these particulates , but many other manufacturing processes do too. Everyone coming in with the naturalistic fallacy shit can piss off though, with their no-data assertions.
Want to do some manipulation of those steel countertops or other material? Watch out for Metal Fume Fever. Also damaging are "natural" paper dust and wood dust.
The nature of the material should drive mitigation efforts. But all micron and lower dust is bad for lungs.
posted by lalochezia at 5:14 AM on December 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
All fabrication that makes micron-sized dust and smaller should have dust mitigation (like wetting), serious air exchange/filtration/extraction and ppe.
But because it's cheaper not to do that - and also because we have a culture around "if it looks safe...just do it" (especially in the trades).... we let people become crippled and die horribly.
As xdvesper notes above, engineered stone, because of its makeup, generates a lot of these particulates , but many other manufacturing processes do too. Everyone coming in with the naturalistic fallacy shit can piss off though, with their no-data assertions.
Want to do some manipulation of those steel countertops or other material? Watch out for Metal Fume Fever. Also damaging are "natural" paper dust and wood dust.
The nature of the material should drive mitigation efforts. But all micron and lower dust is bad for lungs.
posted by lalochezia at 5:14 AM on December 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Forwarded to my representatives
posted by BWA at 5:50 AM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by BWA at 5:50 AM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know about Australia but here in Canada where I work people are really attached to their beards. And despite crazy pants compensation, people are going to quit once the project enters commissioning because they will be required to shave on the off chance there is a leak and they have to don a respirator. Not wear one everyday, just be prepared to live through a leak.
Making sure you have a silicone / cork placemat or metal grille in place to place your pots and pans seems like a totally practical and normal thing to do to protect it from heat and physical impact.
My mother has a glass cutting board inset into her laminate counter top next to her stove top for this purpose. Been working great for 40 years.
posted by Mitheral at 6:06 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Making sure you have a silicone / cork placemat or metal grille in place to place your pots and pans seems like a totally practical and normal thing to do to protect it from heat and physical impact.
My mother has a glass cutting board inset into her laminate counter top next to her stove top for this purpose. Been working great for 40 years.
posted by Mitheral at 6:06 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
> As someone who cooks a bunch in a formica kitchen, all you need is half a dozen Trivets.
I avoid formica in my kitchens because I have other people besides me using them. Corian can be fixed if a tenant damages it, and stone or engineered stone don't get wrecked by tenants in the first place. And a scuffed-up or scorched countertop makes the difference between a nice apartment and a dingy one.
(For 'tenant' above, feel free to substitute 'child' or 'absent-minded partner')
posted by eraserbones at 6:39 AM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I avoid formica in my kitchens because I have other people besides me using them. Corian can be fixed if a tenant damages it, and stone or engineered stone don't get wrecked by tenants in the first place. And a scuffed-up or scorched countertop makes the difference between a nice apartment and a dingy one.
(For 'tenant' above, feel free to substitute 'child' or 'absent-minded partner')
posted by eraserbones at 6:39 AM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
We had a plumbing catastrophe this fall that required a trench be cut in our concrete patio to install a new drain pipe through the foundation. The plumber proceeded to cut the concrete dry and with no PPE. It kicked up an enormous cloud of concrete dust that was as thick as the densest fog, which he 100% breathed in. His assistant just shrugged and said "I keep telling him to wear a mask."
It is truly mind-boggling how unseriously people take safety.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:47 AM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
It is truly mind-boggling how unseriously people take safety.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:47 AM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Man, I had no idea manufactured stone was so dangerous. Good on Australia for having the political balls to outright ban the stuff. I can’t imagine that happening in “mah freedumz” America.
Manufactured stone seems to be the default in almost all the HGTV reno shows my wife watches. The stuff looks fantastic and comes in soooo many looks and colors, it’s crazy. Not fantastic enough to kill people for, of course.
~ Of course, some people negate those advantages by choosing materials like white marble. And concrete has most of those features, and can be polished up nicely.
Both marble and concrete require regular maintenance such as re-sealing which most home owners simply aren’t going to do over time. And, both materials can chip.
Stainless looks cool. But stainless can be dented fairly easily.
Hardwoods like maple are awesome. Expensive as hell, of course. Definitely can scorch. And, there’s the aforementioned regular maintenance required, much more often than stone, as anyone with a regularly-used chopping block can attest to.
I’ve seen porcelain countertops making appearances lately. The claim is they are every bit as durable as marbles or granites, but also susceptible to chipping. They also require special handling and prep work, which makes porcelain pretty expensive.
Old-school Formica seems to still be a great option for most. Durable and cost-effective. It comes in a ton of looks and colors. It can be chipped along the edges, and there are always the seam lines where angles butt-up. It can scorch if you sit a blazing hot pan on it, but that’s easily avoided by simply having a hot pad, double-over kitchen towel, etc. on the surface. Though, setting a scorching hot pan on almost any natural/pseudo-natural surface can damage it, from scorching all the way to cracking or shattering.
Corian was quite the thing back in the 70s and 80s when it appeared, and I always thought it looked great and made a lot of sense as a work surface. It was pretty limited in colors at the time, though. Dunno if that’s improved. Maintenance seemed to be pretty simple, too. Heck, you could actually lightly sand/buff out any minor scratches.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:49 AM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Manufactured stone seems to be the default in almost all the HGTV reno shows my wife watches. The stuff looks fantastic and comes in soooo many looks and colors, it’s crazy. Not fantastic enough to kill people for, of course.
~ Of course, some people negate those advantages by choosing materials like white marble. And concrete has most of those features, and can be polished up nicely.
Both marble and concrete require regular maintenance such as re-sealing which most home owners simply aren’t going to do over time. And, both materials can chip.
Stainless looks cool. But stainless can be dented fairly easily.
Hardwoods like maple are awesome. Expensive as hell, of course. Definitely can scorch. And, there’s the aforementioned regular maintenance required, much more often than stone, as anyone with a regularly-used chopping block can attest to.
I’ve seen porcelain countertops making appearances lately. The claim is they are every bit as durable as marbles or granites, but also susceptible to chipping. They also require special handling and prep work, which makes porcelain pretty expensive.
Old-school Formica seems to still be a great option for most. Durable and cost-effective. It comes in a ton of looks and colors. It can be chipped along the edges, and there are always the seam lines where angles butt-up. It can scorch if you sit a blazing hot pan on it, but that’s easily avoided by simply having a hot pad, double-over kitchen towel, etc. on the surface. Though, setting a scorching hot pan on almost any natural/pseudo-natural surface can damage it, from scorching all the way to cracking or shattering.
Corian was quite the thing back in the 70s and 80s when it appeared, and I always thought it looked great and made a lot of sense as a work surface. It was pretty limited in colors at the time, though. Dunno if that’s improved. Maintenance seemed to be pretty simple, too. Heck, you could actually lightly sand/buff out any minor scratches.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:49 AM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Some types of granite are mildly radioactive (radon, mainly, I think), which the industry insists is safe, but I can't say their track record helps matters so it would be nice if somebody did an actual investigation on the real-world radioactivity of granite as used in countertops.
Another drawback of laminates is not the surface itself, but rather the underlayment -- cheap plywood and MDFs can put out quite a surprising amount of formaldehyde for a fair while. Know where your underlayments are being purchased from -- in the US there are VOC limits that should keep formaldehyde at a decent level, but importers routinely skirt those rules in favor of cheap product (see the Lumber Liquidators debacle).
It's all more confusing than it ought to be.
posted by aramaic at 6:58 AM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Another drawback of laminates is not the surface itself, but rather the underlayment -- cheap plywood and MDFs can put out quite a surprising amount of formaldehyde for a fair while. Know where your underlayments are being purchased from -- in the US there are VOC limits that should keep formaldehyde at a decent level, but importers routinely skirt those rules in favor of cheap product (see the Lumber Liquidators debacle).
It's all more confusing than it ought to be.
posted by aramaic at 6:58 AM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
A sort of uncle used to owned a granite shop, he gave us a tour of the once, the cutting room is insanely dusty, it gets EVERYWHERE. It also gives everything this ultra flat untextured look from a white light-only render. I can see why it would be very hard to manage with only PPE, would need full room isolation and separate ventilation.
When engineered stone countertops are installed, it’s very common for installers, professional and DYI alike, to grind substantial parts of the edges away to achieve final fit in any specific kitchen.
Almost no DYIers and few professional installers are using PPE to a very high probability, and substantial numbers of residents of the homes in question are likely to have been exposed.
At least for DIYers the exposure it likely (hopefully?) to be low/rare enough to not cause issues. A bit like asbestos the real danger is to the workers who'll be around it all the time less to the occupants.
As to why granite/quartz/engineered stone? It can look really good, but for me the allure has always been the durability/toughness. I abuse the hell of my quartz countertops (hot pans!) and it still looks good. Also it gives me a good surface to make/roll doughs and open/work pizzas. And I can use a metal scrapper to get rid of the 1st layer of stuck dried flour, it doesn't damage it AFAIK. Bonus, it won't warp deform if some water makes it pass the formica layer (had that happen to one of my countertops).
It's not like there aren't other solutions, hot pan can go on those big IKEA cork coast, boards/slabs of stone if you want to work dough on another surface, be more careful than I am, but if you can afford it and actually use your kitchen, it's definitely one of those things you don't regret having.
I was eyeing dekton if we need to redo the kitchen, I guess I'll need to take this into account.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:00 AM on December 14, 2023
When engineered stone countertops are installed, it’s very common for installers, professional and DYI alike, to grind substantial parts of the edges away to achieve final fit in any specific kitchen.
Almost no DYIers and few professional installers are using PPE to a very high probability, and substantial numbers of residents of the homes in question are likely to have been exposed.
At least for DIYers the exposure it likely (hopefully?) to be low/rare enough to not cause issues. A bit like asbestos the real danger is to the workers who'll be around it all the time less to the occupants.
As to why granite/quartz/engineered stone? It can look really good, but for me the allure has always been the durability/toughness. I abuse the hell of my quartz countertops (hot pans!) and it still looks good. Also it gives me a good surface to make/roll doughs and open/work pizzas. And I can use a metal scrapper to get rid of the 1st layer of stuck dried flour, it doesn't damage it AFAIK. Bonus, it won't warp deform if some water makes it pass the formica layer (had that happen to one of my countertops).
It's not like there aren't other solutions, hot pan can go on those big IKEA cork coast, boards/slabs of stone if you want to work dough on another surface, be more careful than I am, but if you can afford it and actually use your kitchen, it's definitely one of those things you don't regret having.
I was eyeing dekton if we need to redo the kitchen, I guess I'll need to take this into account.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:00 AM on December 14, 2023
What is the allure for using stone of any kind over, just, like a regular countertop? What is it normally, wood with some kind of thing on top of it, or something similar?
Personally I find natural materials more pleasant. When I redid the house I had the contractors put stone tile flooring throughout, used stone tile for the kitchen counters, and redid the entire bathroom (floor, walls, and counters) with it.
I also have mostly natural wood furniture in the living areas.
No question it's a luxury, but it offsets the unnatural feeling of living in a concrete bunker.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:44 AM on December 14, 2023
Personally I find natural materials more pleasant. When I redid the house I had the contractors put stone tile flooring throughout, used stone tile for the kitchen counters, and redid the entire bathroom (floor, walls, and counters) with it.
I also have mostly natural wood furniture in the living areas.
No question it's a luxury, but it offsets the unnatural feeling of living in a concrete bunker.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:44 AM on December 14, 2023
One issue to consider with Granite/Quartz/Marble is that they make it really easy to break things, set down a glass jug or a wine glass just a bit too quickly and it's gone.
posted by Lanark at 7:45 AM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Lanark at 7:45 AM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's not heat-resistant. You put a hot pan on it and it melts. So pretty much a non-starter for kitchens in which cooking is actually being performed.
Whut? Everybody I knew growing up, who cooked everything themselves, just used cloth potholders. You can even sew them yourself. No need to apply an expensive solution to a cheap-n-easy problem.
(Another advantage of cloth potholders is that they reduce the risk of glass cracking when you're working with glass jars and boiling water, since they insulate the bottom of the jar and thus reduce the large temperature differences within the glass that cause it to crack. This is obviously important for canning, which we also did a lot of.)
posted by clawsoon at 8:01 AM on December 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Whut? Everybody I knew growing up, who cooked everything themselves, just used cloth potholders. You can even sew them yourself. No need to apply an expensive solution to a cheap-n-easy problem.
(Another advantage of cloth potholders is that they reduce the risk of glass cracking when you're working with glass jars and boiling water, since they insulate the bottom of the jar and thus reduce the large temperature differences within the glass that cause it to crack. This is obviously important for canning, which we also did a lot of.)
posted by clawsoon at 8:01 AM on December 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Yeah, seriously, who just puts a hot pan right on their countertop? That's what potholders and trivets are for.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:04 AM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:04 AM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yeah, seriously, who just puts a hot pan right on their countertop?
Accidents happen. I picked up a pan that was hotter than I expected and the only thing I could do was immediately put it down on the Formica countertop, which almost instantly caused a burn on the counter.
posted by briank at 8:15 AM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Accidents happen. I picked up a pan that was hotter than I expected and the only thing I could do was immediately put it down on the Formica countertop, which almost instantly caused a burn on the counter.
posted by briank at 8:15 AM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
mr_roboto: “Counters that are used for serious cooking should be made from stainless steel.”This is what I have now and I will never willingly have anything else.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:18 AM on December 14, 2023
Yeah, seriously, who just puts a hot pan right on their countertop?
Hot is relative. I wouldn't put a screaming hot pan right on a stone counter without at least a dishrag underneath it, but there are certainly temperatures that are too hot for wood but fine for stone. Plus the whole reactivity and staining thing, even if the pot isn't all that hot.
I left a cast iron pot on my wood-topped island-cart thing (which I use as extra counterspace in my eensy kitchen) for a couple hours the other day and it left a black ring that took steel wool to get out and now I am going to have to refinish the whole top. Again.
And having to have trivets, store trivets, use trivets for everything sucks, imo.
My rental kitchen is otherwise tile (and not much of it), but my parents have granite and it really is better in pretty much every way, from a functional perspective.
(Also, I was taught that glass is more or less the worst surface to cut on from the knife's perspective.)
I've looked at getting some Richlite panels custom cut to fit my island and part of the built-in counter, that stuff does look cool. I think I ran across it trying to figure out what science classroom lab tables are topped with.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:28 AM on December 14, 2023
Hot is relative. I wouldn't put a screaming hot pan right on a stone counter without at least a dishrag underneath it, but there are certainly temperatures that are too hot for wood but fine for stone. Plus the whole reactivity and staining thing, even if the pot isn't all that hot.
I left a cast iron pot on my wood-topped island-cart thing (which I use as extra counterspace in my eensy kitchen) for a couple hours the other day and it left a black ring that took steel wool to get out and now I am going to have to refinish the whole top. Again.
And having to have trivets, store trivets, use trivets for everything sucks, imo.
My rental kitchen is otherwise tile (and not much of it), but my parents have granite and it really is better in pretty much every way, from a functional perspective.
(Also, I was taught that glass is more or less the worst surface to cut on from the knife's perspective.)
I've looked at getting some Richlite panels custom cut to fit my island and part of the built-in counter, that stuff does look cool. I think I ran across it trying to figure out what science classroom lab tables are topped with.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:28 AM on December 14, 2023
There's been some mention above of the Hawk's Nest disaster, which was the single worst silicosis epidemic in history, but one way to get an overview of it of sorts is Muriel Rukeyser's poem* The Book of the Dead.
*It's a modern work, and not one hewing to traditional poetic forms. There are lyrical sections, but there's also unedited personal testimony, transcripts from congressional hearings, and other public information dropped in verbatim.
posted by jackbishop at 8:30 AM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
*It's a modern work, and not one hewing to traditional poetic forms. There are lyrical sections, but there's also unedited personal testimony, transcripts from congressional hearings, and other public information dropped in verbatim.
posted by jackbishop at 8:30 AM on December 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
As to why granite/quartz/engineered stone? It can look really good, but for me the allure has always been the durability/toughness
It can chip and reliable long-term repairs are very difficult. But it does look great, when not chipped.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:27 AM on December 14, 2023
It can chip and reliable long-term repairs are very difficult. But it does look great, when not chipped.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:27 AM on December 14, 2023
I've had marble or stone countertops for over a decade at least. Probably more (long term renter here). I still don't ever put hot pots down on the counter. Partly it is just habit from the formica days but it also because I had a pyrex bowl explode because of the temperature differential and the sheer hardness of the marble countertop. Plus stuff on silicone rubber trivets doesn't slip and slide like the way a heated pot on a marble counter can. As a renter I'm less concerned about the counter and more concerned about third degree burns.
And having to have trivets, store trivets, use trivets for everything sucks, imo.
I just have rubbermaid trivets hanging on the same hook as my oven mitts. Easy peasy. Grab the gloves, grab some trivets, put the trivets down, put the gloves on and you're good to go. Really not that hard and takes up very little space.
posted by srboisvert at 9:30 AM on December 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
And having to have trivets, store trivets, use trivets for everything sucks, imo.
I just have rubbermaid trivets hanging on the same hook as my oven mitts. Easy peasy. Grab the gloves, grab some trivets, put the trivets down, put the gloves on and you're good to go. Really not that hard and takes up very little space.
posted by srboisvert at 9:30 AM on December 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
What is the allure for using stone of any kind over, just, like a regular countertop? What is it normally, wood with some kind of thing on top of it, or something similar?
Laminate countertops are fine, but stone countertops are just not that expensive anymore, and so you are only saving like 10-15% unless you buy bottom of the barrel from Ikea, and the seams look horrible if your kitchen countertops aren't straight lines (like you have an L shaped kitchen), even when brand new unless you buy one-piece customs which are expensive. They also suffer under any regular water intrusion, no matter how small. And don't really support undermount sinks, without expensive treatments, which are far superior to over the top set-in sinks.
Butcher block is more expensive.
Stainless steel countertops, like steel roofs, suffer quickly from aesthetic damage, and it's as if not more expensive than stone for decent stuff. Maybe that bothers you personally, maybe it doesn't, but it totally happens. The 'operating room' look also squicks lots of people out.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:09 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Laminate countertops are fine, but stone countertops are just not that expensive anymore, and so you are only saving like 10-15% unless you buy bottom of the barrel from Ikea, and the seams look horrible if your kitchen countertops aren't straight lines (like you have an L shaped kitchen), even when brand new unless you buy one-piece customs which are expensive. They also suffer under any regular water intrusion, no matter how small. And don't really support undermount sinks, without expensive treatments, which are far superior to over the top set-in sinks.
Butcher block is more expensive.
Stainless steel countertops, like steel roofs, suffer quickly from aesthetic damage, and it's as if not more expensive than stone for decent stuff. Maybe that bothers you personally, maybe it doesn't, but it totally happens. The 'operating room' look also squicks lots of people out.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:09 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
A friend has a big kitchen with an island and countertops that are some form of stone or engineered material. I frequently cook in it and they just willy nilly put hot things on the countertops without a concern in the world. Still looks like new after 15+ years. Again, it isn't a screaming hot cast iron skillet but baking sheets that have been in the oven or a pot with soup.
posted by mmascolino at 10:21 AM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mmascolino at 10:21 AM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Stainless steel countertops, like steel roofs, suffer quickly from aesthetic damage
And by quickly I mean far ahead of their required replacement date, which is around 50 years before a steel roof fails and perhaps somewhere around infinite for stainless steel countertops taken care of moderately well. People replace them far before the end of their operating lives due to aesthetic concerns - tree branches dents, or for a countertop knife scrapes would be examples.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:33 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
And by quickly I mean far ahead of their required replacement date, which is around 50 years before a steel roof fails and perhaps somewhere around infinite for stainless steel countertops taken care of moderately well. People replace them far before the end of their operating lives due to aesthetic concerns - tree branches dents, or for a countertop knife scrapes would be examples.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:33 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's not heat-resistant. You put a hot pan on it and it melts. So pretty much a non-starter for kitchens in which cooking is actually being performed.
What?!?!? We do a hell of a lot of cooking and have never had anything but laminate. So 15 years in our current kitchen, plus another 20 years of history in other kitchens. My parents and grandparents never had anything but laminate, so you can stretch that timeline back 80 year or more. You just don't put hot things on the counter without a trivet. Or you put hot things on the stovetop. It isn't that hard.
I would have loved a solid countertop when I renovated our kitchen 15 years ago, but it would have doubled the cost of the kitchen (I did all the work myself), so that was a non-starter.
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:33 AM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
What?!?!? We do a hell of a lot of cooking and have never had anything but laminate. So 15 years in our current kitchen, plus another 20 years of history in other kitchens. My parents and grandparents never had anything but laminate, so you can stretch that timeline back 80 year or more. You just don't put hot things on the counter without a trivet. Or you put hot things on the stovetop. It isn't that hard.
I would have loved a solid countertop when I renovated our kitchen 15 years ago, but it would have doubled the cost of the kitchen (I did all the work myself), so that was a non-starter.
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:33 AM on December 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
The startup making homes out of modular panel walls was Veev (and they were using Corian).
It was discussed on the latest Trashfuture episode, but it's a bonus episode on Patreon.
Prefab homebuilder Veev to shutter after funders abandon former ‘unicorn’
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:46 AM on December 14, 2023
It was discussed on the latest Trashfuture episode, but it's a bonus episode on Patreon.
Prefab homebuilder Veev to shutter after funders abandon former ‘unicorn’
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:46 AM on December 14, 2023
It's not heat-resistant. You put a hot pan on it and it melts. So pretty much a non-starter for kitchens in which cooking is actually being performed.
I guess when my wife and I make dinner, which is a lot, we aren't actually "performing cooking" because we aren't just putting our pots and pans on the counter right after they're done, because that's what Real Cooks do, and we are apparently Fake Cooks. Good to know!
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:48 AM on December 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
I guess when my wife and I make dinner, which is a lot, we aren't actually "performing cooking" because we aren't just putting our pots and pans on the counter right after they're done, because that's what Real Cooks do, and we are apparently Fake Cooks. Good to know!
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:48 AM on December 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
What is the allure for using stone of any kind over, just, like a regular countertop?
There are good reasons for liking it, but I'm not a fan of the reflected sound, cold feel and tendency for things to break when they hit them. We have solid wood countertops and I love them. It's time for them to be sanded and refinished, but it's been years. You can't put hot pans on them if you don't want rings, but at least they don't melt. Wood is easy to work with, relatively light to transport, and just has a more luxurious feel to me because of the warmth it brings and the way it softens sound. I know that's not everyone's idea of luxury, but it's mine.
We also had Corian counters in a vacation house we owned for awhile. They were surprisingly okay for something I associated with the 80s.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:49 AM on December 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
It can chip and reliable long-term repairs are very difficult. But it does look great, when not chipped.
From my experience of having had both types of countertops, quartz/engineered stone is much more resilient to the kind of things that happen regularly in my kitchen. But yeah, if you drop a lodge combo cooker from a few ft up on a an edge, chipping might be an issue (or plain breaking those suckers are heavy).
You can live without em, but if you cook enough a quality countertop (these are not the only option) is an investment that'll make your life a bit easier.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:02 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
From my experience of having had both types of countertops, quartz/engineered stone is much more resilient to the kind of things that happen regularly in my kitchen. But yeah, if you drop a lodge combo cooker from a few ft up on a an edge, chipping might be an issue (or plain breaking those suckers are heavy).
You can live without em, but if you cook enough a quality countertop (these are not the only option) is an investment that'll make your life a bit easier.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:02 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Huh. I saw the headline and was prepared to be horrified at yet another nation going against technology to protect entrenched corporate interests, and instead I found a story of a genuine win for labor and humanity.
Thanks!
posted by sotonohito at 11:06 AM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Thanks!
posted by sotonohito at 11:06 AM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
What is the allure for using stone of any kind over, just, like a regular countertop? What is it normally, wood with some kind of thing on top of it, or something similar?
I honestly don't know. Our kitchen gets used and stuff gets dropped which is why we went with butcherblock that I glued up and milled myself. A coffee cup that slips out of your hand just bounces off of the surface rather than shattering.
posted by drstrangelove at 11:15 AM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I honestly don't know. Our kitchen gets used and stuff gets dropped which is why we went with butcherblock that I glued up and milled myself. A coffee cup that slips out of your hand just bounces off of the surface rather than shattering.
posted by drstrangelove at 11:15 AM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
To my own peculiar tastes, the most enviable countertop I ever saw was not installed, but sitting in a storage room in the basement of a rental awaiting the return of the owner who was on a years long professional assignment abroad.
It was about 10 ft. long, with a double sink in the middle, and was a single piece of bright white enameled cast iron.
GOK how much that thing weighed. I doubt anything like it has been available for a long time.
posted by jamjam at 11:21 AM on December 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
It was about 10 ft. long, with a double sink in the middle, and was a single piece of bright white enameled cast iron.
GOK how much that thing weighed. I doubt anything like it has been available for a long time.
posted by jamjam at 11:21 AM on December 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
More than a little ghoulish/tone deaf that this thread turned into "what countertops do I have in the home I own" when it's about people who probably can't afford houses, dying to make materials for them.
posted by Jarcat at 11:27 AM on December 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 11:27 AM on December 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
People are discussing alternatives to Engineered Stone because the article has pointed out the ethical problems in its production and installation.
Would you prefer it if everyone was all "Oh well sucks for them, I'm still gonna just buy the engineered stuff"
posted by Lanark at 12:21 PM on December 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Would you prefer it if everyone was all "Oh well sucks for them, I'm still gonna just buy the engineered stuff"
posted by Lanark at 12:21 PM on December 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
More than a little ghoulish/tone deaf that this thread turned into "what countertops do I have in the home I own" when it's about people who probably can't afford houses, dying to make materials for them
Well actually it started as a thread about people *not* dying to make make materials, and a discussion of what materials to use instead seems like a natural progression.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:22 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well actually it started as a thread about people *not* dying to make make materials, and a discussion of what materials to use instead seems like a natural progression.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:22 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Definitely! And next time we talk about the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire I'll make sure to get good tips on alternate blouse sources.
posted by Jarcat at 12:26 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Jarcat at 12:26 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe instead you could talk about union organizing, or fire safety legislation, or any other piece of progress that came in reaction to that tragedy?
Or was that just thread-shitting? Ah, right....
posted by wenestvedt at 12:32 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Or was that just thread-shitting? Ah, right....
posted by wenestvedt at 12:32 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, to push back on the “and these people can’t even afford houses” bit - millworkers are skilled laborers. Even the factory work making panels probably pays better than many blue-collar jobs. We’re not going to get rid of construction labor. This is a notable story because officials determined there was no reasonable safe way to make this product. California is currently looking at similar legislation.
Working in construction is flat out hard on your body. There is a lot of regulation and negotiation that makes it safer and easier to do long term, and this is critical because as mentioned these jobs are still going to be around, in the same way that sewing stills requires humans. However, unlike sewing, somehow many of these people still make a living wage.
Discussing alternative materials and the relative usefulness of PPE techniques feels like a great way to discuss impacts.
In conclusion, when you have someone in to repair or do small work on your house, let them use your goddamn bathroom.
posted by q*ben at 1:07 PM on December 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
Working in construction is flat out hard on your body. There is a lot of regulation and negotiation that makes it safer and easier to do long term, and this is critical because as mentioned these jobs are still going to be around, in the same way that sewing stills requires humans. However, unlike sewing, somehow many of these people still make a living wage.
Discussing alternative materials and the relative usefulness of PPE techniques feels like a great way to discuss impacts.
In conclusion, when you have someone in to repair or do small work on your house, let them use your goddamn bathroom.
posted by q*ben at 1:07 PM on December 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
There has been discussion of alternate materials in this thread, yes, but little of it has focused on the impact on workers. Most of our discussion has been about the effect of alternate materials in their finished form on the consumer. (A shout-out to xdvesper and aramaic in particular for adding to the discussion about risks to workers.)
Woodworker's lung and formaldehyde in melamine production are factors, too, but I don't have enough knowledge to evaluate the relative risks to workers.
posted by clawsoon at 1:45 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Woodworker's lung and formaldehyde in melamine production are factors, too, but I don't have enough knowledge to evaluate the relative risks to workers.
posted by clawsoon at 1:45 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Some technical comments from an industrial hygienist.
posted by clawsoon at 1:51 PM on December 14, 2023
Based on my observations and exposure assessments, company after company I work with struggles to reduce exposures below the PEL even after implementing typical engineering controls. I worry that the workers I am monitoring now may die within the decade because of a completely preventable occupational health illness."may die within the decade"
posted by clawsoon at 1:51 PM on December 14, 2023
Definitely! And next time we talk about the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire I'll make sure to get good tips on alternate blouse sources.
Cool! I didn't realize the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire story was about a bunch of people being spared from working in dangerous conditions. I thought it was a bad thing.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:50 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Cool! I didn't realize the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire story was about a bunch of people being spared from working in dangerous conditions. I thought it was a bad thing.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:50 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Clawsoon said what I was trying to, in a much more diplomatic (and imo intelligent) way.
However, unlike sewing, somehow many of these people still make a living wage.
I'm on the record saying that if you can't pay your employees a living wage then you shouldn't be in business, but I'm also in the medical field so I know that isn't how the world actually works.
The average annual salary of a stone carver/manufacturer is in the mid 40k a year range (in the better paying states) which in some areas is a living wage I guess? A lot of this industry in America is in Southern California too, where it definitely isn't a living wage.
Personally I'd go with the soapstone though, I like how it was described up thread.
posted by Jarcat at 3:39 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
However, unlike sewing, somehow many of these people still make a living wage.
I'm on the record saying that if you can't pay your employees a living wage then you shouldn't be in business, but I'm also in the medical field so I know that isn't how the world actually works.
The average annual salary of a stone carver/manufacturer is in the mid 40k a year range (in the better paying states) which in some areas is a living wage I guess? A lot of this industry in America is in Southern California too, where it definitely isn't a living wage.
Personally I'd go with the soapstone though, I like how it was described up thread.
posted by Jarcat at 3:39 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Good for Australia!
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 5:18 AM on December 15, 2023
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 5:18 AM on December 15, 2023
Bloomberg Law: "By a 7-0 vote Thursday [December 14, 2023], the California Occupational Safety and Health Standards Board approved the emergency temporary standard setting new requirements to prevent workers from inhaling toxic silica dust.
The temporary standard is expected to take effect Dec. 29 and stay in place for one year, when it would be replaced by a permanent rule."
posted by jedicus at 7:37 AM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
The temporary standard is expected to take effect Dec. 29 and stay in place for one year, when it would be replaced by a permanent rule."
posted by jedicus at 7:37 AM on December 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mean, given that the material is not banned in the U.S., we could talk about what alternatives people have liked and used in order to encourage them away from engineered stone, or we could scold them for thinking about how to make their kitchens both functional and attractive without risking people's lives.
I brought up PPE early on, so perhaps I am licensed to say this?
posted by praemunire at 11:14 AM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
I brought up PPE early on, so perhaps I am licensed to say this?
posted by praemunire at 11:14 AM on December 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's not heat-resistant. You put a hot pan on it and it melts. So pretty much a non-starter for kitchens in which cooking is actually being performed.
This has been answered already, but just as another (anecdotal) data point, I grew up entirely with formica counters; the first time I saw a non-formica counter in person was probably in my mid/late twenties. I did stay in a few cheap rentals where someone had burned the counter with a hot pan, but I never saw that otherwise. It just isn't that hard to not hurt it, and it lasts longer than the kitchen aesthetic fashions do. The first house I owned was probably 50-ish years old when we sold it, with original formica counters. They were a bit ugly by modern standards, but completely undamaged, and perhaps would eventually come back into fashion if you waited long enough.
Our current house has some kind of solid-material counters. I don't know what it is precisely. It's not natural stone, so probably some kind of composite. I can only hope that no one was hurt during its manufacture or installation. Unless we needed to reconfigure the kitchen for some reason (like installing more universal design features), I don't see this stuff wearing out within my lifetime. It's not the color I would have chosen if I was installing it, but it's not ugly and I'll just live with it as long as we live here.
To the actual point of the FPP, I think it is great that they are adding this worker protection and I hope it spreads. All the construction-type jobs I've had were always super casual about PPE and safety in general, but this sounds like a level much worse than just the typical risks.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:57 PM on December 15, 2023
This has been answered already, but just as another (anecdotal) data point, I grew up entirely with formica counters; the first time I saw a non-formica counter in person was probably in my mid/late twenties. I did stay in a few cheap rentals where someone had burned the counter with a hot pan, but I never saw that otherwise. It just isn't that hard to not hurt it, and it lasts longer than the kitchen aesthetic fashions do. The first house I owned was probably 50-ish years old when we sold it, with original formica counters. They were a bit ugly by modern standards, but completely undamaged, and perhaps would eventually come back into fashion if you waited long enough.
Our current house has some kind of solid-material counters. I don't know what it is precisely. It's not natural stone, so probably some kind of composite. I can only hope that no one was hurt during its manufacture or installation. Unless we needed to reconfigure the kitchen for some reason (like installing more universal design features), I don't see this stuff wearing out within my lifetime. It's not the color I would have chosen if I was installing it, but it's not ugly and I'll just live with it as long as we live here.
To the actual point of the FPP, I think it is great that they are adding this worker protection and I hope it spreads. All the construction-type jobs I've had were always super casual about PPE and safety in general, but this sounds like a level much worse than just the typical risks.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:57 PM on December 15, 2023
I have some autism-related sensory issues which have made living in an 1873 house which has not seen much renovation since the 1940s a bit challenging. The kitchen counters were a dark formica that had lost much of its finish, with multiple spots of damage. Still, I put off work until it became impossible to buy a refrigerator that fit the weird space available for it and I was thus forced to have the room redone.
To minimize the inevitable trauma I focused on touch points, choosing things largely based on my reactions to their texture and how they looked under new lights. As a result I now have sparkly white Silestone counters—which I chose long before knowing it was hazardous.
The material is astonishing—it is beautiful and utterly impervious. Turmeric, tomato sauce, hot pans—nothing affects it in any way. Running my hands over its unique texture is extremely calming and it is visually uplifting. Visitors shower the room with compliments. Nothing that I checked out came close to it—Corian felt visually dead and I could not bear Formica, having lived with it for 60+ years. I’d spoken with folks who’d gone with natural stone and it sounded tricky to maintain.
All this just to say that I understand the appeal of this material. The kitchen counters give me a huge amount of visual and tactile pleasure. I am very sad to learn of their terrible price.
posted by kinnakeet at 5:19 AM on December 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
To minimize the inevitable trauma I focused on touch points, choosing things largely based on my reactions to their texture and how they looked under new lights. As a result I now have sparkly white Silestone counters—which I chose long before knowing it was hazardous.
The material is astonishing—it is beautiful and utterly impervious. Turmeric, tomato sauce, hot pans—nothing affects it in any way. Running my hands over its unique texture is extremely calming and it is visually uplifting. Visitors shower the room with compliments. Nothing that I checked out came close to it—Corian felt visually dead and I could not bear Formica, having lived with it for 60+ years. I’d spoken with folks who’d gone with natural stone and it sounded tricky to maintain.
All this just to say that I understand the appeal of this material. The kitchen counters give me a huge amount of visual and tactile pleasure. I am very sad to learn of their terrible price.
posted by kinnakeet at 5:19 AM on December 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
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