Southern Poverty Law Center writes about Anti-LGBTQ+ Pseudoscience
December 28, 2023 8:50 AM Subscribe
GROUP DYNAMICS AND DIVISION OF LABOR WITHIN THE ANTI-LGBTQ+ PSEUDOSCIENCE NETWORK [SPLC.org] is a really really long article outlining the exact way networks of funding and people work to promote anti-LGBTQ+ pseudoscience, and discusses its ties to white supremacy and the religious right. It gets into specifics and details, but the greater picture it paints is one of coordinated efforts to move public opinion and accepted science against LGBTQ+ existence in society.
It's nice to have it all outlined this clearly. It's also nice to know that one isn't being paranoid, and they actually are plotting against you.
It's nice to have it all outlined this clearly. It's also nice to know that one isn't being paranoid, and they actually are plotting against you.
I'm honestly not expecting much discussion here about this, although it would be welcome. I felt it was more like "I'm putting this here because people will want to see it".
I really don't like to participate in OutrageFilter much. And I think this whole thing is so much more complex than most outrage posts describe.
So, if there are things to talk about, let's do that. But otherwise, maybe I'm putting this here so people know about it and disseminate it in other networks.
Fuck these people.
posted by hippybear at 10:34 AM on December 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
I really don't like to participate in OutrageFilter much. And I think this whole thing is so much more complex than most outrage posts describe.
So, if there are things to talk about, let's do that. But otherwise, maybe I'm putting this here so people know about it and disseminate it in other networks.
Fuck these people.
posted by hippybear at 10:34 AM on December 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
Anti-LGBTQ+ pseudoscience must also be understood as part of the historical legacy of white supremacy and the political aims of the religious right.
This is a very american view of things, isn't it?
posted by vincebowdren at 10:54 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is a very american view of things, isn't it?
posted by vincebowdren at 10:54 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is a very american view of things, isn't it?
the calls are mostly coming from inside this house (outside of religious justifications that are about as made up as the rest of it)
posted by kokaku at 11:01 AM on December 28, 2023
the calls are mostly coming from inside this house (outside of religious justifications that are about as made up as the rest of it)
posted by kokaku at 11:01 AM on December 28, 2023
> This is a very american view of things, isn't it?
The SPLC is an American organization and this post is about their report, so the discussion is (not so) implicitly about the anti-LGBTQ movement in the US. I'd recommend a new post if you want to discuss non-American hate groups.
posted by riotnrrd at 11:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
The SPLC is an American organization and this post is about their report, so the discussion is (not so) implicitly about the anti-LGBTQ movement in the US. I'd recommend a new post if you want to discuss non-American hate groups.
posted by riotnrrd at 11:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Well, splc is an American organization, talking about a coordinated effort in America to affect American law, medicine culture and custom, so, yes?
posted by lalochezia at 11:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 11:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
This post a part of the bigger subset of SPLCs work, CAPTAIN
posted by lalochezia at 11:04 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by lalochezia at 11:04 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thank you for posting this.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:11 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by joannemerriam at 11:11 AM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is an American organization specifically studying the effects in America, so...
But also, yes, there are absolutely strong, well-researched links between white supremacy and anti-LGBTQ bigotry. It's no accident that the cornerstone of the anti-"woke" brigades, and the catalyst for much of their turn towards open fascism, has been to adopt the Nazi approach to the LGBTQ community. The only major quibble that I'd point out with the article has been the fact that they almost entirely attribute it to the religious right (and specifically Christian evangelicals) when there are plenty of self-described liberals and centrists, as well as atheists and members of other religions, who are a part of these networks and just as hateful or even openly genocidal.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:11 AM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
But also, yes, there are absolutely strong, well-researched links between white supremacy and anti-LGBTQ bigotry. It's no accident that the cornerstone of the anti-"woke" brigades, and the catalyst for much of their turn towards open fascism, has been to adopt the Nazi approach to the LGBTQ community. The only major quibble that I'd point out with the article has been the fact that they almost entirely attribute it to the religious right (and specifically Christian evangelicals) when there are plenty of self-described liberals and centrists, as well as atheists and members of other religions, who are a part of these networks and just as hateful or even openly genocidal.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:11 AM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yeah it’s weak around the people who launder this shit, in the UK and the US, but this is absolutely the shit they are laundering. Keep an eye out for these names and these organizations next time there’s a New York Times or Guardian anti-trans piece.
posted by Artw at 11:31 AM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:31 AM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Fear is a hell of a motivator.
posted by gottabefunky at 1:01 PM on December 28, 2023
posted by gottabefunky at 1:01 PM on December 28, 2023
Blanchard and Bailey, the two elder scholars whose work was de-legitimized, but who seem to give a lot of the white nationalists with money their academic legitimacy, were heavily featured in the Contrapoints video "Autogynephilia", which is still up on youtube.
On Bailey's "methodology" 9:41
On Blanchard's typology and the false dichotomy 14:23
references for the video
Julia Serano, "The Case Against Autogynephilia"
Zinnia Jones, "Alice Dreger, autogynephilia, and the misrepresentation of trans sexualities"
I do not think this all worth watching or reading though, (even the Wikipedia article on Bailey was flagged for excessive detail) my point is that the rotten ideas were always rotten, and consensus was that they were rotten, once the ideas were examined. It's weird, maybe, that they are rotten and this new compared to dominionists, whose ideas are rotten and older. I suppose it may be useful to point out to conservatives, who always act like their ideas are very old, are getting their ideas from academics who failed in the second Bush administration.
I hope I never type the word autogynephillia again, as it is a fake greek word to cover for a vapid idea that trans people are just sex fetishists. this is the kind of thing that, if you've ever met a trans person, or, like, any woman, seems embarrassing that it was ever a book, and an idea that came completely out of a cis male professor paying for sex work.
It doesn't seem like these academics were originally dominionists, they just happen to be disgruntled 'theorists' whose ideas that trans people are just fetishists were no good and weird. They were, naturally, angered by their ideas not being any good, and their ethics questionable. I imagine that sales of their books went down.
It does remind me of the Bens Shapiro of the world, and that so many of the ghouls of the right wing media were failed hollywood writers
posted by eustatic at 2:24 PM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
On Bailey's "methodology" 9:41
On Blanchard's typology and the false dichotomy 14:23
references for the video
Julia Serano, "The Case Against Autogynephilia"
Zinnia Jones, "Alice Dreger, autogynephilia, and the misrepresentation of trans sexualities"
I do not think this all worth watching or reading though, (even the Wikipedia article on Bailey was flagged for excessive detail) my point is that the rotten ideas were always rotten, and consensus was that they were rotten, once the ideas were examined. It's weird, maybe, that they are rotten and this new compared to dominionists, whose ideas are rotten and older. I suppose it may be useful to point out to conservatives, who always act like their ideas are very old, are getting their ideas from academics who failed in the second Bush administration.
I hope I never type the word autogynephillia again, as it is a fake greek word to cover for a vapid idea that trans people are just sex fetishists. this is the kind of thing that, if you've ever met a trans person, or, like, any woman, seems embarrassing that it was ever a book, and an idea that came completely out of a cis male professor paying for sex work.
It doesn't seem like these academics were originally dominionists, they just happen to be disgruntled 'theorists' whose ideas that trans people are just fetishists were no good and weird. They were, naturally, angered by their ideas not being any good, and their ethics questionable. I imagine that sales of their books went down.
It does remind me of the Bens Shapiro of the world, and that so many of the ghouls of the right wing media were failed hollywood writers
posted by eustatic at 2:24 PM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
"This report makes clear that the anti-LGBTQ+ pseudoscience network we identify supports and is supported by white Christian nationalist ideology that seeks to privilege straight, white, cisgender Christians in public policy and replace science and American law with Christian theology.[1] This report nuances that overarching goal by showing how anti-LGBTQ+ pseudoscience is advanced to end the affirming care model and subsequently enact other restrictions on freedom including limits on bodily autonomy, freedom of association, expression, and speech. Namely, the goals of many Legal Advocacy and Think Tank (LATT) and Narrative Manipulation (NM) groups are built on the pseudoscientific claim that LGBTQ+ identity spreads through social contagion, which serves to justify restrictions on any expression of LGBTQ+ identity (e.g., book bans, bans on trans students in sport, drag bans)."
Well. That's not at all terrifying.
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:14 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well. That's not at all terrifying.
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:14 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
But also, yes, there are absolutely strong, well-researched links between white supremacy and anti-LGBTQ bigotry. It's no accident that the cornerstone of the anti-"woke" brigades, and the catalyst for much of their turn towards open fascism, has been to adopt the Nazi approach to the LGBTQ community.
I am at this point unshakeably convinced that UK TERF leader Parker Posey is a fascist entryist whose underlying goal is to get white centrists and liberals comfortable with sharing both physical and ideological space with fascists.
Blanchard and Bailey, the two elder scholars whose work was de-legitimized, but who seem to give a lot of the white nationalists with money their academic legitimacy, were heavily featured in the Contrapoints video "Autogynephilia yt ", which is still up on youtube.
Thanks to the SPLC we also know that Ray Blanchard and J. Michael Bailey were members of Steve Sailer's Human Biodiversity Institute, which promotes eugenics and race science. The links get deeper the more you look.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:20 PM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
I am at this point unshakeably convinced that UK TERF leader Parker Posey is a fascist entryist whose underlying goal is to get white centrists and liberals comfortable with sharing both physical and ideological space with fascists.
Blanchard and Bailey, the two elder scholars whose work was de-legitimized, but who seem to give a lot of the white nationalists with money their academic legitimacy, were heavily featured in the Contrapoints video "Autogynephilia yt ", which is still up on youtube.
Thanks to the SPLC we also know that Ray Blanchard and J. Michael Bailey were members of Steve Sailer's Human Biodiversity Institute, which promotes eugenics and race science. The links get deeper the more you look.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:20 PM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
On google, I'm pretty sure you mean Posie Parker.
Parker Posey is an American actor and I've no idea what her politics are.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:51 PM on December 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
Parker Posey is an American actor and I've no idea what her politics are.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:51 PM on December 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
Of Course TERFs Have Found Common Cause With White Nationalists
posted by Artw at 4:55 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 4:55 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
On google, I'm pretty sure you mean Posie Parker.
Oh wow, I would've sworn that's what I typed? Total brain failure on my part.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:59 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh wow, I would've sworn that's what I typed? Total brain failure on my part.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:59 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wolf/Klein syndrome strikes again.
posted by Artw at 5:03 PM on December 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:03 PM on December 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Carey Callahan was once a prominent critic of gender-affirming care for minors. Then she began to worry her words were leading to outcomes she didn’t support.
Between 2018 and 2019, Callahan criticized pediatric transition care in public talks and in a column on the anti-trans-medicalization website 4thWaveNow. She helped create a nonprofit to reform both trans and detransition health care. And she was featured in the Atlantic article “When Children Say They’re Transgender,” a lengthy portrait of children and adults who had once thought they were trans but decided they were wrong.
Around the same time, Callahan met a doctor who led Ohio’s largest pediatric gender clinic. Callahan went to their meeting prepared to tell the doctor he was harming kids, but he listened carefully, and Callahan realized he wanted what she did — to give children the best possible care.
In Ohio, at least, children didn’t rush through therapy straight to hormones the way Callahan had as an adult five years earlier. Parents and children met with a team of doctors and mental health experts. They talked through comorbidities and other possible diagnoses, and most never moved on to medication. (According to public documents, just 7 percent of children were prescribed puberty blockers when treated for gender dysphoria at Ohio’s children’s hospitals. Thirty-five percent were prescribed hormones, and 65 percent received only mental health support. State hospital officials say they do not perform gender-affirming surgeries on minors.)
Callahan began to worry her words were leading to actions she didn’t support. Parents replied to her 4thWaveNow column insisting that their children had fallen victim to “a social contagion.” The editor of a book Callahan contributed to said trans children “don’t exist.” And a group of attorneys general cited the Atlantic article in a 2019 memo seeking to roll back trans medical rights.
posted by Artw at 5:27 PM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Between 2018 and 2019, Callahan criticized pediatric transition care in public talks and in a column on the anti-trans-medicalization website 4thWaveNow. She helped create a nonprofit to reform both trans and detransition health care. And she was featured in the Atlantic article “When Children Say They’re Transgender,” a lengthy portrait of children and adults who had once thought they were trans but decided they were wrong.
Around the same time, Callahan met a doctor who led Ohio’s largest pediatric gender clinic. Callahan went to their meeting prepared to tell the doctor he was harming kids, but he listened carefully, and Callahan realized he wanted what she did — to give children the best possible care.
In Ohio, at least, children didn’t rush through therapy straight to hormones the way Callahan had as an adult five years earlier. Parents and children met with a team of doctors and mental health experts. They talked through comorbidities and other possible diagnoses, and most never moved on to medication. (According to public documents, just 7 percent of children were prescribed puberty blockers when treated for gender dysphoria at Ohio’s children’s hospitals. Thirty-five percent were prescribed hormones, and 65 percent received only mental health support. State hospital officials say they do not perform gender-affirming surgeries on minors.)
Callahan began to worry her words were leading to actions she didn’t support. Parents replied to her 4thWaveNow column insisting that their children had fallen victim to “a social contagion.” The editor of a book Callahan contributed to said trans children “don’t exist.” And a group of attorneys general cited the Atlantic article in a 2019 memo seeking to roll back trans medical rights.
posted by Artw at 5:27 PM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oh wow, I would've sworn that's what I typed? Total brain failure on my part.
FWIW, I typed something like "I think you mean Parker Posey, not Parker Posey" at least once.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:44 PM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
FWIW, I typed something like "I think you mean Parker Posey, not Parker Posey" at least once.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:44 PM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Really glad you posted this.
posted by kensington314 at 6:35 PM on December 28, 2023
posted by kensington314 at 6:35 PM on December 28, 2023
Thank you for posting this, hippybear. I've been a consistent donor (even during the leanest times, I continued to give what I could) to the SPLC throught my adulthood. Their work is so very important. And, I'll add, that as the cis parent of a trans (adult) child, this all scares the cr*p out of me.
posted by Scout405 at 7:14 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Scout405 at 7:14 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
And, I'll add, that as the cis parent of a trans (adult) child, this all scares the cr*p out of me.
I fully expect us to be rounded up into a camp if Trump is elected. I live in a tiny town and everyone knows who we are despite us keeping mostly to ourselves. I'm living in mortal fear of Nov 2024. We'll see how it goes.
posted by hippybear at 7:33 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I fully expect us to be rounded up into a camp if Trump is elected. I live in a tiny town and everyone knows who we are despite us keeping mostly to ourselves. I'm living in mortal fear of Nov 2024. We'll see how it goes.
posted by hippybear at 7:33 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was surprised to see FAIR mentioned as anti-LGBTQ+, since I had positive recollections on that organization's work.
I was relieved to find out that Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting is not Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism. The later is indeed a despicable organization, in spite of the Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr photos on their website.
posted by coberh at 7:58 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was relieved to find out that Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting is not Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism. The later is indeed a despicable organization, in spite of the Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr photos on their website.
posted by coberh at 7:58 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
OK. Let us get the alphabet out of the way with regard to where you as an individual are. Let us also brush aside the 'labels' that are arbitrarily assigned to you because you are 'you'. Things like age, sexuality, race, income etc. Note these are not in any order of importance or impotence. You are you. Strip of clothing and there is a physical representation of you as you are, not as others believe you should be. Stick a Post-It note on a nipple and it is still a nipple! Put a can of Budweiser on there and things change? NO!
It is about time that people stopped expending energy on 'look at me I am over here and I am... [insert alphabetical letter here].'. What IS happening is a divisive conversation which is being thrust upon you and I by a MINORITY. They (whoever 'they' are) want you enforce a view of correctness upon society based upon their opinion. An insidious chiseling away at reality using things you do not (necessarily) believe in to champion their view. Bible quotes out of context and many other 'facts' that distort the reality of life.
The divisiveness embodied in the information spread out is chilling. Rather than expend energy on outrage I recommend a good old dose of rallying around reality and standing up for what is plain and simply 'right'. Whoever you are there is no-one entitled to determine women's sexual rights, no-one able to determine that [insert alphabet letter here] is right/wrong/evil/etc or whatever.
I suggest an 'Alphabet Movement' which incorporates any position you choose to adopt in life and the alphabet to quash this hatred and vile nonsense being espoused by ill-informed individuals.
My labels/letters, in no particular order are:
Privileged white boomer, straight, long time married, scraping by in a dysfunctional world, labelled as 'it's your fault' despite being a tree-hugging, aluminum can saving, cyclist, low air-miles, single-child parent... etc
My three laws of living (thanks Isaac!) are:
Fuck off and let me live my life the way I choose - I do NOT want to stop you doing being who/what/where you are as long as it does not impinge on my basic way of living, and as long as you do not impinge on that of others. I like you. Now be nice or go away!
Please live your life as you wish (as long as it does not impinge on line 1 above).
Let others do what they want to do (see two prior lines).
To quote Marc Maron - "I am 85% woke. The rest I keep to myself."
If you want to argue do it in your own time. The minority has a plan to divide and conquer. YOU need a plan to unite and fight for what is right....
Now, discuss....
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 8:06 PM on December 28, 2023
It is about time that people stopped expending energy on 'look at me I am over here and I am... [insert alphabetical letter here].'. What IS happening is a divisive conversation which is being thrust upon you and I by a MINORITY. They (whoever 'they' are) want you enforce a view of correctness upon society based upon their opinion. An insidious chiseling away at reality using things you do not (necessarily) believe in to champion their view. Bible quotes out of context and many other 'facts' that distort the reality of life.
The divisiveness embodied in the information spread out is chilling. Rather than expend energy on outrage I recommend a good old dose of rallying around reality and standing up for what is plain and simply 'right'. Whoever you are there is no-one entitled to determine women's sexual rights, no-one able to determine that [insert alphabet letter here] is right/wrong/evil/etc or whatever.
I suggest an 'Alphabet Movement' which incorporates any position you choose to adopt in life and the alphabet to quash this hatred and vile nonsense being espoused by ill-informed individuals.
My labels/letters, in no particular order are:
Privileged white boomer, straight, long time married, scraping by in a dysfunctional world, labelled as 'it's your fault' despite being a tree-hugging, aluminum can saving, cyclist, low air-miles, single-child parent... etc
My three laws of living (thanks Isaac!) are:
Fuck off and let me live my life the way I choose - I do NOT want to stop you doing being who/what/where you are as long as it does not impinge on my basic way of living, and as long as you do not impinge on that of others. I like you. Now be nice or go away!
Please live your life as you wish (as long as it does not impinge on line 1 above).
Let others do what they want to do (see two prior lines).
To quote Marc Maron - "I am 85% woke. The rest I keep to myself."
If you want to argue do it in your own time. The minority has a plan to divide and conquer. YOU need a plan to unite and fight for what is right....
Now, discuss....
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 8:06 PM on December 28, 2023
With this, the Project 2025 plan, and the
fact that pharmacies give cops information with the most minimal of oversight?
My plan is to push, to vote, and then if they look to be about get their hands on the levers of power, run. I’m older, disabled, and tired. Cowardly? Maybe, but I can’t do much more.
posted by mephron at 9:45 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
fact that pharmacies give cops information with the most minimal of oversight?
My plan is to push, to vote, and then if they look to be about get their hands on the levers of power, run. I’m older, disabled, and tired. Cowardly? Maybe, but I can’t do much more.
posted by mephron at 9:45 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I suggest an 'Alphabet Movement' which incorporates any position you choose to adopt in life and the alphabet to quash this hatred and vile nonsense being espoused by ill-informed individuals.
...you mean, like some kind of queer or lgbtqia+ movement?
...are you under the impression that such a movement does not already exist/is not already fighting back against said hatred and vile nonsense?
...and also, referring to queer/lgbtqia+ people as "alphabet" is perhaps not a great choice of words, given that most of the time when queer people hear themselves called "alphabet people" it's usually preceding a torrent of bigoted shit, so, uh?
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:35 PM on December 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
...you mean, like some kind of queer or lgbtqia+ movement?
...are you under the impression that such a movement does not already exist/is not already fighting back against said hatred and vile nonsense?
...and also, referring to queer/lgbtqia+ people as "alphabet" is perhaps not a great choice of words, given that most of the time when queer people hear themselves called "alphabet people" it's usually preceding a torrent of bigoted shit, so, uh?
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:35 PM on December 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
Without words to help describe our experiences we can’t really communicate about our differences or commonalities. The problem isn’t the words, or the identities, the problem is the bigotry around them. Right-wingers like the groups above are literally trying to take that vocabulary away from us with things like book bans and prohibitions on what can be discussed in schools.
If you want to take that vocabulary away in the name of unity you’re just ensuring that people are left ignorant and isolated. That’s not going to bring us together, and it’s exactly what Christofascists want. Do not call anyone an “alphabet” person and expect anyone to feel supported by the idea that their identities and life experiences don’t matter. Of course they matter! These things affect our lives in fundamental ways!
posted by fontgoddess at 12:53 AM on December 29, 2023 [15 favorites]
If you want to take that vocabulary away in the name of unity you’re just ensuring that people are left ignorant and isolated. That’s not going to bring us together, and it’s exactly what Christofascists want. Do not call anyone an “alphabet” person and expect anyone to feel supported by the idea that their identities and life experiences don’t matter. Of course they matter! These things affect our lives in fundamental ways!
posted by fontgoddess at 12:53 AM on December 29, 2023 [15 favorites]
labelled as 'it's your fault'
Who is labeling you this way, with what actions on their part, and with what consequences for you? I ask because your comment lines up with the behavior of lots of folks, including my progressive Boomer parents, who have on occasion said “I have been labelled as ‘at fault’ ” (or “why must that group be so divisive”) when what they actually meant was “boohoo someone said mean things about men/white people/white feminists on the internet and I feel personally attacked precisely because I’ve believed in progressive causes all my life and want to be rewarded for it, not told that *some* people like me are actually holding back progress, or asked to consider my biases, or confronted by the fact that the progressive values I established in my youth don’t actually cover all ways in which humans might seek liberation, and all of this is intolerable because I think of myself as a good person”.
Your post certainly lists ways in which others should consider you to not be a bad person, seemingly as a defense - you recycle, you only had one kid, you ride a bike to work. Great! Are you asking for those factors to somehow outweigh moral judgment of other positions you might hold?
What is it that you want us to discuss?
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 8:59 AM on December 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Who is labeling you this way, with what actions on their part, and with what consequences for you? I ask because your comment lines up with the behavior of lots of folks, including my progressive Boomer parents, who have on occasion said “I have been labelled as ‘at fault’ ” (or “why must that group be so divisive”) when what they actually meant was “boohoo someone said mean things about men/white people/white feminists on the internet and I feel personally attacked precisely because I’ve believed in progressive causes all my life and want to be rewarded for it, not told that *some* people like me are actually holding back progress, or asked to consider my biases, or confronted by the fact that the progressive values I established in my youth don’t actually cover all ways in which humans might seek liberation, and all of this is intolerable because I think of myself as a good person”.
Your post certainly lists ways in which others should consider you to not be a bad person, seemingly as a defense - you recycle, you only had one kid, you ride a bike to work. Great! Are you asking for those factors to somehow outweigh moral judgment of other positions you might hold?
What is it that you want us to discuss?
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 8:59 AM on December 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
What is it that you want us to discuss?
It does not have to be taken as a mandate or acknowledged at all.
posted by Selena777 at 9:55 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
It does not have to be taken as a mandate or acknowledged at all.
posted by Selena777 at 9:55 AM on December 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
i used to be someone else & rrrrrrrrrt - You appear to be taking my comments WAY too literally. THE major problem here is, as hippybear says: "the greater picture it paints is one of coordinated efforts to move public opinion and accepted science against LGBTQ+ existence in society" (plus his 'fuck these people'). The smaller sub-groups espousing hatred against LGBTQ+ and everyone else by moving to change public opinion to further THEIR cause is deplorable. My 'Alphabet Movement' was to highlight that the hate group activities are all encompassing against whatever / whoever you are. That includes you, me, and anyone. "referring to queer/lgbtqia+ people as "alphabet" - I did NOT say that... the comment DID say "[insert alphabetical letter here]" and I missed out the 'label' part there. My error for which I apologize. The media loves to put labels on people as it is easy to make sweeping statements to encompass all - just look at the banners on any CNN, ONN, FOX station and you see what I refer to all to frequently
According to labeling (would 'Labelist' be too tongue in cheek perhaps?) I am a 'boomer' with all of the epithets assigned to that category. My comment [the sarcasm of it was clearly missed by several] was:
"My labels/letters, in no particular order are:
Privileged white boomer, straight, long time married, scraping by in a dysfunctional world, labelled as 'it's your fault' despite being a tree-hugging, aluminum can saving, cyclist, low air-miles, single-child parent... etc"
It was intended to highlight how easy it is to label someone. The 'tree-hugging...' bit was also to highlight how easy it is to be labeled on the other side (by people who identify as 'boomers') simply because I garden, recycle... etc and, like your very valid comments, assume that someone is not aware of the difficulties faced by LGBTQ+ and others. If society as a whole does not unite against the bile and vitriol shown by the SPLC then the future will not be bright it will be very dystopian 'from Day One' to quote one individual who falls into this category. ALL of us A-Z.
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 1:34 PM on December 29, 2023
According to labeling (would 'Labelist' be too tongue in cheek perhaps?) I am a 'boomer' with all of the epithets assigned to that category. My comment [the sarcasm of it was clearly missed by several] was:
"My labels/letters, in no particular order are:
Privileged white boomer, straight, long time married, scraping by in a dysfunctional world, labelled as 'it's your fault' despite being a tree-hugging, aluminum can saving, cyclist, low air-miles, single-child parent... etc"
It was intended to highlight how easy it is to label someone. The 'tree-hugging...' bit was also to highlight how easy it is to be labeled on the other side (by people who identify as 'boomers') simply because I garden, recycle... etc and, like your very valid comments, assume that someone is not aware of the difficulties faced by LGBTQ+ and others. If society as a whole does not unite against the bile and vitriol shown by the SPLC then the future will not be bright it will be very dystopian 'from Day One' to quote one individual who falls into this category. ALL of us A-Z.
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 1:34 PM on December 29, 2023
Well, see, the problem is that what I'm going to use the umbrella term and call The Queers have been labeled as The Other That Must Be Excluded by the currently evolving fascist movement. They tried flirting with a race war, a weird thing that people seem to keep thinking is going to happen at some point with Charles Manson being the most famous one in my mind... They tried flirting with direct Nazi torchlight marches... And what they've found works, what drives the outrage, are The Queers. And so here we are.
This document assembled by SPLC is really just glimpse through the prism of what is going on, obviously. With the book banning bullshit happening being so incredibly focussed on Queer issues, the attacks on drag performances, and so many other things being done, this is just another lever being moved in the culture to make sure that The Other That Must Be Excluded is properly, "scientifically" identified and denied medical treatment they might require or have their existence unvalidated.
This isn't going to go away if Biden is reelected and Trump is defeated. But if Trump is elected, our society is going to shut down so quickly that it will be unbelievable. And these aren't Trump's plans, but he's serving as a useful conduit toward power for those who DO have these plans. And I don't feel I'm being hyperbolic when I say that I do expect to end up in a camp if he's elected.
Anyway, IndelibleUnderpants, I appreciate your support. I think you were really clumsy with trying to communicate what is actually a good point, which is that the categories of Acceptable will continue to narrow and The Other That Must Be Excluded is a group that can expand infinitely as society closes down.
But yeah, please don't call us Alphabet People. Love you, hate that term.
posted by hippybear at 1:47 PM on December 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
This document assembled by SPLC is really just glimpse through the prism of what is going on, obviously. With the book banning bullshit happening being so incredibly focussed on Queer issues, the attacks on drag performances, and so many other things being done, this is just another lever being moved in the culture to make sure that The Other That Must Be Excluded is properly, "scientifically" identified and denied medical treatment they might require or have their existence unvalidated.
This isn't going to go away if Biden is reelected and Trump is defeated. But if Trump is elected, our society is going to shut down so quickly that it will be unbelievable. And these aren't Trump's plans, but he's serving as a useful conduit toward power for those who DO have these plans. And I don't feel I'm being hyperbolic when I say that I do expect to end up in a camp if he's elected.
Anyway, IndelibleUnderpants, I appreciate your support. I think you were really clumsy with trying to communicate what is actually a good point, which is that the categories of Acceptable will continue to narrow and The Other That Must Be Excluded is a group that can expand infinitely as society closes down.
But yeah, please don't call us Alphabet People. Love you, hate that term.
posted by hippybear at 1:47 PM on December 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
You appear to be taking my comments WAY too literally.
“Can’t you take a joke?” is not a good look in the present context.
posted by eviemath at 2:47 PM on December 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
“Can’t you take a joke?” is not a good look in the present context.
posted by eviemath at 2:47 PM on December 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
one thing about labels... when yr not whatever is considered baseline, they're a way of saying "i exist" (as in NO I'm not cis, NO I'm not hetero, NO I'm not attracted to the opposite sex, NO I'm not monogamous, NO I'm not Christian or any variant thereof)
joking about labels or trying to make some abstract point about how fascists eventually come for everyone when yr comfortably in the majority and not directly being threatened, well, this is one of those moments where silence is golden and listening might be better than talking
posted by kokaku at 3:00 PM on December 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
joking about labels or trying to make some abstract point about how fascists eventually come for everyone when yr comfortably in the majority and not directly being threatened, well, this is one of those moments where silence is golden and listening might be better than talking
posted by kokaku at 3:00 PM on December 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
If society as a whole does not unite against the bile and vitriol shown by the SPLC then the future will not be bright it will be very dystopian 'from Day One' to quote one individual who falls into this category. ALL of us A-Z.
i mean, yes? but like. i think what's confusing me about both your posts is that it's hard to tell if you're just saying generally to everyone or specifically telling the targeted group (per the post/article) to band together? because i assure you, the majority of queer folk, particularly trans folk, are aware of how precarious things are. yes, the stuff the splc is revealing is detailed and provides specific geography of the apparatus of hate, but for the actual impacts and effects, we live them every day in a way that 'privileged white boomer' who is 'straight' and 'long time married' may not. after all, the vast majority of trans people i know, even in "safe" states, are already looking into the feasibility of exit strategies; the vast majority of cis people, well, they're the type to ask what rights trans people don't have.
and so the way those exhortations read seem more of a lecture to the targeted communities that already are doing everything they can (and beyond) what you outlined. if it's more of a general thrust, it feels more like preaching to the choir; we'd love to be part of a united front, but tell that to the people who think non-passing trans people are too weird; the blue resistance folk who think queer folk are too panicky and angry; the people who are privileged white boomers, straight, long time married, to make common cause with us, because the doors and bridges have always been there from the queer side of things.
also the abstract argument about labels doesn't feel particularly germane?
while i do agree that labels can be a tricky thing to navigate, particularly if they're exogenous vs. endogenous, as kokaku points out: without labels it would be difficult to work out some frames of reference/concepts. which is why queer people have long created terms to describe ourselves, from 'friend of dorothy' to 'kallai'; why some labels, like "doll" and "stud" mean different things within specific smaller contexts from the greater community. it's often when exogenous labels become derogatory and aren't reclaimed by within the group, or get overloaded by those with axes to grind that they start to pigeonhole entire populations.
anyway, if we're going deep into metaphors, when you get a bundle of sticks together (same root word for the f-slur as fascism) it's not like each individual stick loses its uniqueness. we shouldn't have to shed our own labels to form a united front?
posted by i used to be someone else at 4:32 PM on December 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
i mean, yes? but like. i think what's confusing me about both your posts is that it's hard to tell if you're just saying generally to everyone or specifically telling the targeted group (per the post/article) to band together? because i assure you, the majority of queer folk, particularly trans folk, are aware of how precarious things are. yes, the stuff the splc is revealing is detailed and provides specific geography of the apparatus of hate, but for the actual impacts and effects, we live them every day in a way that 'privileged white boomer' who is 'straight' and 'long time married' may not. after all, the vast majority of trans people i know, even in "safe" states, are already looking into the feasibility of exit strategies; the vast majority of cis people, well, they're the type to ask what rights trans people don't have.
and so the way those exhortations read seem more of a lecture to the targeted communities that already are doing everything they can (and beyond) what you outlined. if it's more of a general thrust, it feels more like preaching to the choir; we'd love to be part of a united front, but tell that to the people who think non-passing trans people are too weird; the blue resistance folk who think queer folk are too panicky and angry; the people who are privileged white boomers, straight, long time married, to make common cause with us, because the doors and bridges have always been there from the queer side of things.
also the abstract argument about labels doesn't feel particularly germane?
while i do agree that labels can be a tricky thing to navigate, particularly if they're exogenous vs. endogenous, as kokaku points out: without labels it would be difficult to work out some frames of reference/concepts. which is why queer people have long created terms to describe ourselves, from 'friend of dorothy' to 'kallai'; why some labels, like "doll" and "stud" mean different things within specific smaller contexts from the greater community. it's often when exogenous labels become derogatory and aren't reclaimed by within the group, or get overloaded by those with axes to grind that they start to pigeonhole entire populations.
anyway, if we're going deep into metaphors, when you get a bundle of sticks together (same root word for the f-slur as fascism) it's not like each individual stick loses its uniqueness. we shouldn't have to shed our own labels to form a united front?
posted by i used to be someone else at 4:32 PM on December 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
@IndelibleUnderpants: case in point in what queer, specifically trans folk are facing. note how more than one of the comments is about considering escape routes; note how there's comments on how best to make 'united fronts'
this is what i meant when questioning how you were approaching the conversation--who are you reaching out to?
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:45 PM on January 1
this is what i meant when questioning how you were approaching the conversation--who are you reaching out to?
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:45 PM on January 1
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