Paleolithic Feminist Praxis
January 12, 2024 4:43 AM Subscribe
Our results show that, unlike the javelin, the atlatl equalizes the velocity of female- and male-launched projectiles. This result indicates that a javelin to atlatl transition would have promoted a unification, rather than division, of labor. More new research on prehistoric women as hunters. Gender politics as imagined in fiction set in prehistory. Finally, the 'Venus of Willendorf' is always worth consideration.
Readers of a certain age may find it difficult not to think of a certain Cro-Magnon inventor on encountering this at the first link:
Speculatively, given that our experimental results suggest that females are the segment of the population that disproportionately benefit in the transition from the thrown javelin to the atlatl and dart, we feel that it is worth considering on a theoretical level that in at least some archaeological contexts females could have been the atlatl’s inventor. Hypothetically, females’ familiarity with the increased leverage that comes with longer digging sticks or children’s toys could have led to a transformation of these implements’ original functions into weaponry.
Readers of a certain age may find it difficult not to think of a certain Cro-Magnon inventor on encountering this at the first link:
Speculatively, given that our experimental results suggest that females are the segment of the population that disproportionately benefit in the transition from the thrown javelin to the atlatl and dart, we feel that it is worth considering on a theoretical level that in at least some archaeological contexts females could have been the atlatl’s inventor. Hypothetically, females’ familiarity with the increased leverage that comes with longer digging sticks or children’s toys could have led to a transformation of these implements’ original functions into weaponry.
Not sure who needs to hear this, but here is your reminder that the atlatl is emphatically not the same thing as the axolotl. That is something entirely different.
posted by Naberius at 6:09 AM on January 12 [16 favorites]
posted by Naberius at 6:09 AM on January 12 [16 favorites]
Does this mean that the NYT's Spelling Bee might someday finally recognize the word "atlatl"?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:10 AM on January 12 [5 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 6:10 AM on January 12 [5 favorites]
This research should (as with any single research paper) be approached with some scepticism.
The details of the paper make it clear that male subjects actually had significantly higher velocities than the female subjects, and it was only by controlling for grip strength that they could conclude the headlined equality. That manoeuvre has been criticised as misrepresenting the actual findings, e.g. https://twitter.com/Scientific_Bird/status/1692275001657807205
posted by vincebowdren at 6:14 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
The details of the paper make it clear that male subjects actually had significantly higher velocities than the female subjects, and it was only by controlling for grip strength that they could conclude the headlined equality. That manoeuvre has been criticised as misrepresenting the actual findings, e.g. https://twitter.com/Scientific_Bird/status/1692275001657807205
posted by vincebowdren at 6:14 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
I just discovered that someone who uses or studies an atlatl is an atlatlist.
Atlatlist. Atlatlist. Atlatlist. This is a good word.
posted by phooky at 6:55 AM on January 12 [13 favorites]
Atlatlist. Atlatlist. Atlatlist. This is a good word.
posted by phooky at 6:55 AM on January 12 [13 favorites]
That is truly a good point, vincebowdren. That said, one should consider the source of criticism. I had never heard of Scientific_Bird previously, but on a quick perusal of their Twitter and Substack writing, I think I'll look to the responses from folks willing to stand publicly behind their engagement with the article. Scientific_Bird publishes a lot of reasonably well written "isn't it interesting that" or "yes, but what about" stuff that... I dunno. A criticism in isolation that may or may not be racist or sexist or anti-Indigenous is one thing, and sometimes it is important to post critiques that are hard to hear or opposed to conventional wisdom. There is a substantial posting history there, though. Perhaps I'm reading things into it, but it strikes me as ugly in the aggregate.
(ETA: Again, I don't know this person, and I'm not trying to unfairly denigrate someone engaging publicly with scholarship. That is important work for many reasons. I just got a bad feeling from looking at the work, and perhaps there's something I'm missing here.)
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:06 AM on January 12 [4 favorites]
(ETA: Again, I don't know this person, and I'm not trying to unfairly denigrate someone engaging publicly with scholarship. That is important work for many reasons. I just got a bad feeling from looking at the work, and perhaps there's something I'm missing here.)
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:06 AM on January 12 [4 favorites]
I have a deep interest in prehistoric gender relations, although I am not going to try to go to bat for the paper. I don't have expertise in that, and it's not something I feel has to be proven as such.
What's needed is to jar loose the modern presumption that prehistoric women didn't hunt or seek animal food. This is important because it's an underlying principle of patriarchal ideals. We know that women are thoroughly capable of trapping and hunting. I'm interested in whether they did, to what extent, and why they might not have -- all questions that are much, much more difficult to investigate in Paleolithic contexts.
I am fascinated by Venus figurines, and a little bummed to see that as graphic signifiers they have gotten a little TERFy and dusty with second-wave ideas. I don't know that they can tell us much about daily life without further discoveries. All we can be sure about was that it was an image of a big woman, more or less true to life, and the image was so powerful that the face was taboo to depict.
(Incidentally, due to poor lighting and frequently reproduced photos, for the longest time I thought that Willendorf's folded arms were the rings of enormous areolae. I figured it meant something, but I couldn't think what.)
posted by Countess Elena at 7:11 AM on January 12 [7 favorites]
What's needed is to jar loose the modern presumption that prehistoric women didn't hunt or seek animal food. This is important because it's an underlying principle of patriarchal ideals. We know that women are thoroughly capable of trapping and hunting. I'm interested in whether they did, to what extent, and why they might not have -- all questions that are much, much more difficult to investigate in Paleolithic contexts.
I am fascinated by Venus figurines, and a little bummed to see that as graphic signifiers they have gotten a little TERFy and dusty with second-wave ideas. I don't know that they can tell us much about daily life without further discoveries. All we can be sure about was that it was an image of a big woman, more or less true to life, and the image was so powerful that the face was taboo to depict.
(Incidentally, due to poor lighting and frequently reproduced photos, for the longest time I thought that Willendorf's folded arms were the rings of enormous areolae. I figured it meant something, but I couldn't think what.)
posted by Countess Elena at 7:11 AM on January 12 [7 favorites]
That said, one should consider the source of criticism.
cupcakeninja
Well, no, you really shouldn’t. Regardless of the source, the only issue is whether the criticism is valid or not.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:19 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
cupcakeninja
Well, no, you really shouldn’t. Regardless of the source, the only issue is whether the criticism is valid or not.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:19 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
The concern I have is the subjects weren't experienced javelin or atlatl users instead being chosen for their naivety either on purpose to prevent some javelin/atlatl Gretzky from skewing the results or because their weren't any skilled people available on campus. If the atlatl requires practice to get the most out if it (and why would it not) then the ultimate performance wasn't measured and the results are theoretical at best.
The grip strength thing maybe less of an issue. Many of the atlatl I've seen incorporate either some sort of knob on the grip or a wrist thong both of which greatly enhance holding power. Even the atlatl Naberius linked has a decorative knob that would have prevented hand slippage.
I was going to say like the knob on a baseball bat but that's apparently more complicated than I knew.
PS: hilariously my phone hates "knob" replacing with "know" at every instance.
posted by Mitheral at 7:39 AM on January 12 [2 favorites]
The grip strength thing maybe less of an issue. Many of the atlatl I've seen incorporate either some sort of knob on the grip or a wrist thong both of which greatly enhance holding power. Even the atlatl Naberius linked has a decorative knob that would have prevented hand slippage.
I was going to say like the knob on a baseball bat but that's apparently more complicated than I knew.
PS: hilariously my phone hates "knob" replacing with "know" at every instance.
posted by Mitheral at 7:39 AM on January 12 [2 favorites]
male subjects actually had significantly higher velocities than the female subjects, and it was only by controlling for grip strength that they could conclude the headlined equality.
The abstract confusingly says "the atlatl equalizes the velocity of female- and male-launched projectiles." They mean "makes closer to equality," which the article supports, but I think most people would read that as "makes equal." The average difference in javelin velocity between sexes is greater than that for for atlatl velocity because javelin throwing depends on both grip strength and other factors; for the atlatl, they find that it depends only on grip strength. That is, the predicted velocity is a function only of grip strength, but for javelins it's a function of both grip strength and (independently) sex.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:46 AM on January 12 [4 favorites]
The abstract confusingly says "the atlatl equalizes the velocity of female- and male-launched projectiles." They mean "makes closer to equality," which the article supports, but I think most people would read that as "makes equal." The average difference in javelin velocity between sexes is greater than that for for atlatl velocity because javelin throwing depends on both grip strength and other factors; for the atlatl, they find that it depends only on grip strength. That is, the predicted velocity is a function only of grip strength, but for javelins it's a function of both grip strength and (independently) sex.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:46 AM on January 12 [4 favorites]
On a similar note, I remember Terry Jones in one of his medieval specials talking about the advantages offered by the gastraphees or belly-bow and how it allowed practically anyone to become an effective archer by changing how the bowstring is drawn and adding a quick release mechanism.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:56 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:56 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
Does this mean that the NYT's Spelling Bee might someday finally recognize the word "atlatl"?
the other day I put in "dhole" and it told me that's not a real word and I swear to fuck I almost threw my laptop across the room
posted by sciatrix at 9:39 AM on January 12 [8 favorites]
the other day I put in "dhole" and it told me that's not a real word and I swear to fuck I almost threw my laptop across the room
posted by sciatrix at 9:39 AM on January 12 [8 favorites]
the atlatl is emphatically not the same thing as the axolotl.
Throwing an axolotl at your prey only works if the animal harbors an absolutely paralyzing fear of salamanders.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:43 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
Throwing an axolotl at your prey only works if the animal harbors an absolutely paralyzing fear of salamanders.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:43 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
Atlatlist. This is a good word.
What if they also collected stamps?
posted by Sphinx at 10:36 AM on January 12 [7 favorites]
What if they also collected stamps?
posted by Sphinx at 10:36 AM on January 12 [7 favorites]
the other day I put in "dhole" and it told me that's not a real word and I swear to fuck I almost threw my laptop across the room
Whomever picks their word list needs to be shaken vigorously. It's the most whitebread word list imaginable.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:40 AM on January 12
Whomever picks their word list needs to be shaken vigorously. It's the most whitebread word list imaginable.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:40 AM on January 12
From experience*, the bow was much more difficult and more counter-intuitive at first that the atlatl was.
We only "shot" the atlatl 15-20 times each, but once you grokked the quasi-throwing action that it uses it sort of felt like throwing a baseball, it was surprising to me how even the worst shot/thrower in our group could at least hit the target by the end whereas with the bow, at least a third of us couldn't hit the target and one woman skinned the shit out of her inner arm area.
*DISCLAIMER: This was in the 1990s, so maybe they've changed atlatl tech since then.
posted by Sphinx at 10:48 AM on January 12 [4 favorites]
We only "shot" the atlatl 15-20 times each, but once you grokked the quasi-throwing action that it uses it sort of felt like throwing a baseball, it was surprising to me how even the worst shot/thrower in our group could at least hit the target by the end whereas with the bow, at least a third of us couldn't hit the target and one woman skinned the shit out of her inner arm area.
*DISCLAIMER: This was in the 1990s, so maybe they've changed atlatl tech since then.
posted by Sphinx at 10:48 AM on January 12 [4 favorites]
Atlatlist. This is a good word.
What if they also collected stamps?
And studied ring-shaped coral reef islands?
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:03 AM on January 12 [6 favorites]
What if they also collected stamps?
And studied ring-shaped coral reef islands?
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:03 AM on January 12 [6 favorites]
And was from the capital city of the state of Georgia?
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:11 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:11 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
And were named after the legendary King of the Huns?
posted by The Bellman at 11:15 AM on January 12 [2 favorites]
posted by The Bellman at 11:15 AM on January 12 [2 favorites]
Or, given the stamp collecting, perhaps Cloris Leachman's 1975 sit-com character?
posted by The Bellman at 11:17 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
posted by The Bellman at 11:17 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
Phyllis Atilla, the philatelatollatlatlist from Atlanta?
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:47 AM on January 12 [5 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:47 AM on January 12 [5 favorites]
...or has the joke gone all phillat by now?
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:48 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:48 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
There a threshold where the velocity doesn't matter so much as long as it's enough to kill the animal? Does use of the atlatl get a person over that threshold? I guess I'm getting at... maybe the atlatl doesn't need to make you on par with the best dart throwers as long as it's effective enough to get extra kills for the effort expended.
posted by Mister Cheese at 12:59 PM on January 12 [6 favorites]
posted by Mister Cheese at 12:59 PM on January 12 [6 favorites]
Hey, guys, thanks for letting us come along despite our inferior grip strength. You like rabbit? I just shot this rabbit with the broken atlatl you lent me and you look like you could use a meal, what with how long we've been tracking and how big and strong you are.
posted by tigrrrlily at 7:29 PM on January 12 [4 favorites]
posted by tigrrrlily at 7:29 PM on January 12 [4 favorites]
There a threshold where the velocity doesn't matter so much as long as it's enough to kill the animal? Does use of the atlatl get a person over that threshold? I guess I'm getting at... maybe the atlatl doesn't need to make you on par with the best dart throwers as long as it's effective enough to get extra kills for the effort expended.
This makes sense to me. Like, if say 30% of people could throw an unaided spear hard enough, but 60% could do it with an atlatl, it's a clear gain.
I was at a museum a while back that had an exhibit with ancient atlatls, and it was cool that you could see the marks from people's hands and from using them even after this long.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:02 PM on January 12
This makes sense to me. Like, if say 30% of people could throw an unaided spear hard enough, but 60% could do it with an atlatl, it's a clear gain.
I was at a museum a while back that had an exhibit with ancient atlatls, and it was cool that you could see the marks from people's hands and from using them even after this long.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:02 PM on January 12
Of course prehistoric women hunted. Everyone always pictures these perfect groups of people but life in the wild is fucking messy and there were often women alone who knew the deal and did the shit that kept them alive. Either one woman alone or groups of women. What, they knew how to hunt but when the man or men died, they just shrugged? Yeah, naw.
My point is, asshole men throughout history gatekeep everything from women, even our healthcare, but in the absence of that, of COURSE women could regulate. Gotta eat!
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:31 AM on January 13 [3 favorites]
My point is, asshole men throughout history gatekeep everything from women, even our healthcare, but in the absence of that, of COURSE women could regulate. Gotta eat!
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:31 AM on January 13 [3 favorites]
My grandmother hunted. She had a horse and a trapline, maybe a rifle (note to self: ask Mom). Her mother was Tsilhqot’in and I suspect her lifestyle at the time was at least traditionally influenced, maybe even somewhat semi-traditional.
Regarding the velocity threshold part of the discussion, I suspect that that threshold is mostly predicated on the animal bleeding out sometime after the kill shot, at least if it’s a big game animal. So, I expect we’re not talking heart shots, maybe lungs though. It also seems significant to me that a deer can take a bullet and still run a surprising distance before it lays down and dies.
On the Man the Hunter Hypothesis of human origins that has occasionally popped up, though not by name, in the thread, it wasn’t exactly standing strong back in the 1990s when I critiqued it, during some anthropology class on human palaeontology or some such, as suspiciously reminiscent of 1950s nuclear family concepts. Then again, there was a small faction of students in the class who took great exception to it.
I’ll also add that hunting was not always a solo or small group effort. Sometimes a whole village or group of bands would participate in a hunt. Some people would wield the bows, others would track and herd the prey, and still others would hold up the screens that the prey animals were driven towards.
Finally, regarding the Venus figurines. In the book The Tears of Eros, George’s Bataille had pictures of the figurines from different angles. If I remember it right he called the figurines visual puns because from some angles they were the famed curvy Venus figures, while from others they were a penis and balls. However, I’ve never seen anything about that in anthro/archaeological literature.
posted by house-goblin at 11:47 AM on January 13 [4 favorites]
Regarding the velocity threshold part of the discussion, I suspect that that threshold is mostly predicated on the animal bleeding out sometime after the kill shot, at least if it’s a big game animal. So, I expect we’re not talking heart shots, maybe lungs though. It also seems significant to me that a deer can take a bullet and still run a surprising distance before it lays down and dies.
On the Man the Hunter Hypothesis of human origins that has occasionally popped up, though not by name, in the thread, it wasn’t exactly standing strong back in the 1990s when I critiqued it, during some anthropology class on human palaeontology or some such, as suspiciously reminiscent of 1950s nuclear family concepts. Then again, there was a small faction of students in the class who took great exception to it.
I’ll also add that hunting was not always a solo or small group effort. Sometimes a whole village or group of bands would participate in a hunt. Some people would wield the bows, others would track and herd the prey, and still others would hold up the screens that the prey animals were driven towards.
Finally, regarding the Venus figurines. In the book The Tears of Eros, George’s Bataille had pictures of the figurines from different angles. If I remember it right he called the figurines visual puns because from some angles they were the famed curvy Venus figures, while from others they were a penis and balls. However, I’ve never seen anything about that in anthro/archaeological literature.
posted by house-goblin at 11:47 AM on January 13 [4 favorites]
house-goblin: that's fantastic! I've never heard about that. I'll have to look up the book if I can. It's possible also that the effect is only apparent to modern people, in the same way that early depictions of infant Jesus don't look to us like the perfected Son of Man but like a creepy homunculus. Dicks are much simpler, though.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:08 PM on January 13 [2 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 12:08 PM on January 13 [2 favorites]
Oh, I should add that my grandmother was going out on the trapline when she was very young. One of her trapline stories took place when she was fourteen.
posted by house-goblin at 12:08 PM on January 13 [1 favorite]
posted by house-goblin at 12:08 PM on January 13 [1 favorite]
Countess Elena: yes, most definitely Bataille’s peni-venuses interpretation could be a case of seeing through the goggles of modernity. My big regret is that I didn’t find the book while I was studying anthropology. Would have been fun, and hopefully informative, asking one of the prehistory specializing profs about it.
posted by house-goblin at 12:28 PM on January 13 [1 favorite]
posted by house-goblin at 12:28 PM on January 13 [1 favorite]
Just a late FYI about all the puns and rhymes: You are almost definitely mispronouncing atlatl. The -tl is a single phoneme [ɬ], which is not pronounced as "tul."
This sound does not exist in English, but some may be familiar with the double-L in Welsh, which is the same phoneme. Watch this famous clip of a Welsh weather report and listen for how the double-L gets pronounced.
posted by Panjandrum at 9:44 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
This sound does not exist in English, but some may be familiar with the double-L in Welsh, which is the same phoneme. Watch this famous clip of a Welsh weather report and listen for how the double-L gets pronounced.
posted by Panjandrum at 9:44 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
I saved this a while back Female hunters of the early Americas nih.gov .pdf, this is Wilamaya Patjxa in the Andes 7000BC featuring atlatl use. Study is site work plus a meta-analysis and is very graphical.
posted by unearthed at 9:26 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
posted by unearthed at 9:26 AM on January 16 [1 favorite]
The -tl is a single phoneme [ɬ], which is not pronounced as "tul."
ɬufferin' ɬuccotaɬ!!
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:58 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
ɬufferin' ɬuccotaɬ!!
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:58 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
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