"8 km away from the villa where the Wannsee Conference took place"
January 21, 2024 3:50 AM Subscribe
Secret plan against Germany is an investigative report by German magazine Correctiv about a meeting near Potsdam where Neo-Nazis and members of far-right political party Alternative für Deutschland met to talk about plans for mass deportations from Germany. These plans, and and other fascistic ideas discussed, have led to calls to ban the party altogether. German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has called these plans an attack on German democracy and this weekend around three hundred thousand people in Germany marched in protest.
Thanks for the post Kattullus. I don't follow German news very closely, so I didn't realize the magnitude of the events until I was out with my family and we stumbled upon the demonstration here in Heidelberg (18,000 people for a city of ~100,000).
Even after reading the news in German I couldn't really figure out why this event in particular would lead to such massive protests. But I guess it's the confluence of events... from the range of the attendants, to the relative strength of the AfD at the moment, people are actually afraid of what Germany might look like after the next election.
Very selfishly, I've been closely following the debate in Germany around dual citizenship. I would like to have German citizenship (and to be blunt, I think I deserve it and would be a "good German citizen"), but in order to do so I would have to give up my Canadian citizenship, which is not happening. Happily, Germany's parliament just approved easing dual citizenship! Well, hopefully this will come into force before a change of government, and I get "remigrated" instead.
posted by Alex404 at 4:44 AM on January 21 [8 favorites]
Even after reading the news in German I couldn't really figure out why this event in particular would lead to such massive protests. But I guess it's the confluence of events... from the range of the attendants, to the relative strength of the AfD at the moment, people are actually afraid of what Germany might look like after the next election.
Very selfishly, I've been closely following the debate in Germany around dual citizenship. I would like to have German citizenship (and to be blunt, I think I deserve it and would be a "good German citizen"), but in order to do so I would have to give up my Canadian citizenship, which is not happening. Happily, Germany's parliament just approved easing dual citizenship! Well, hopefully this will come into force before a change of government, and I get "remigrated" instead.
posted by Alex404 at 4:44 AM on January 21 [8 favorites]
I guess it's the confluence of events... from the range of the attendants, to the relative strength of the AfD at the moment, people are actually afraid of what Germany might look like after the next election.
I was thinking it was because draft 1 of the final solution was 'deport all the jews', so the parallels are vile.
posted by biffa at 4:52 AM on January 21 [7 favorites]
I was thinking it was because draft 1 of the final solution was 'deport all the jews', so the parallels are vile.
posted by biffa at 4:52 AM on January 21 [7 favorites]
It’s a horrifying read, and, while I hope the effort to ban the AfD succeeds, it’s a terrible situation. I mean, a badly-organized coup by an elderly aristocrat is one thing, but an established political party plotting against its citizens….
I “liked” this grievance:
According to Sellner, the problem is “not just that foreigners live here. They also vote here.” “Ethnic voting” means that immigrants are likely to vote for “immigration-friendly” parties.
How odd, that people vote for their interests, or that candidates who openly espouse disenfranchising immigrants can’t get traction among immigrant voters (with immigrant meaning anyone who has immigated (or whose parents have) in the last ~70 years….
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:05 AM on January 21 [8 favorites]
I “liked” this grievance:
According to Sellner, the problem is “not just that foreigners live here. They also vote here.” “Ethnic voting” means that immigrants are likely to vote for “immigration-friendly” parties.
How odd, that people vote for their interests, or that candidates who openly espouse disenfranchising immigrants can’t get traction among immigrant voters (with immigrant meaning anyone who has immigated (or whose parents have) in the last ~70 years….
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:05 AM on January 21 [8 favorites]
Well, hopefully this will come into force before a change of government, and I get "remigrated" instead.
You say that kind of lightly but for myself as a 'mere' permanent resident here this bullshit is targeted at me personally and, I assume 'you', regardless how "good" an integrated citizen I/we might see ourselves. The news of the change in the law (allowing two passports) was/is hugely welcome - the thought that these fucking psychos could screw that all up is yet one more reason to abhor them.
Banning the AfD has its charm but the more effective response would be to neutralise their perceived advantages vis-a-vis providing for the people of the former East (where they are strongest - and of course where 'immigrants' are least likely to be found) - like the Republicans in US politics, they have no substantial platform other than 'which way is the wind blowing' + racism. The problem is that the former West has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to recognising the significant cultural difference with the former East, leading to wariness and estrangement and a political background primed for a barrel of feckless assholes like those running the AfD.
We're all going to the Demo at the Bundestag this afternoon. I would have liked to go to one out in the countryside yesterday, but didn't manage it. This is perhaps my number one reason for considering taking on citizenship: being able to vote.
posted by From Bklyn at 5:24 AM on January 21 [25 favorites]
You say that kind of lightly but for myself as a 'mere' permanent resident here this bullshit is targeted at me personally and, I assume 'you', regardless how "good" an integrated citizen I/we might see ourselves. The news of the change in the law (allowing two passports) was/is hugely welcome - the thought that these fucking psychos could screw that all up is yet one more reason to abhor them.
Banning the AfD has its charm but the more effective response would be to neutralise their perceived advantages vis-a-vis providing for the people of the former East (where they are strongest - and of course where 'immigrants' are least likely to be found) - like the Republicans in US politics, they have no substantial platform other than 'which way is the wind blowing' + racism. The problem is that the former West has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to recognising the significant cultural difference with the former East, leading to wariness and estrangement and a political background primed for a barrel of feckless assholes like those running the AfD.
We're all going to the Demo at the Bundestag this afternoon. I would have liked to go to one out in the countryside yesterday, but didn't manage it. This is perhaps my number one reason for considering taking on citizenship: being able to vote.
posted by From Bklyn at 5:24 AM on January 21 [25 favorites]
Even after reading the news in German I couldn't really figure out why this event in particular would lead to such massive protests. But I guess it's the confluence of events... from the range of the attendants, to the relative strength of the AfD at the moment, people are actually afraid of what Germany might look like after the next election.
This weekend has been mostly about the AfD but there are two new far-right parties being formed in Germany at the moment, both getting a lot of headlines. One is a pro-dictatorship russian-imperialist-friendly party lead by former leftist party member Sahra Wagenknecht. The other is the "WerteUnion" anti-immigration party being formed by soon to be former right-wing CDU/CSU members.
So yeah, there's a bad vibe in general right now.
posted by UN at 7:02 AM on January 21 [8 favorites]
This weekend has been mostly about the AfD but there are two new far-right parties being formed in Germany at the moment, both getting a lot of headlines. One is a pro-dictatorship russian-imperialist-friendly party lead by former leftist party member Sahra Wagenknecht. The other is the "WerteUnion" anti-immigration party being formed by soon to be former right-wing CDU/CSU members.
So yeah, there's a bad vibe in general right now.
posted by UN at 7:02 AM on January 21 [8 favorites]
So many people showed up for the march in Munich that the protest had to be called off. 25 thousand had been expected, but estimates are that between 100 to 250 thousand people showed up, and so it was canceled out of safety concerns. Here's a link to the Süddeutsche Zeitung liveblog, which is in German, I haven't found any English-language sources yet.
posted by Kattullus at 7:07 AM on January 21 [6 favorites]
posted by Kattullus at 7:07 AM on January 21 [6 favorites]
Its comforting & encouraging to see so many Germans vocally and publicly objecting to this foulness.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:21 AM on January 21 [20 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 7:21 AM on January 21 [20 favorites]
I've been watching this story. As a Europhile, I've been a fan of modern Germany and their importance as an economic engine of the EU. So it's been uncomfortable to watch the political fallout from their economic crises, led by the energy supply disruption from Russia's invasion of Ukraine, a slowdown in demand for their products, and austerity from a self-imposed constitutional limit on borrowing.
The right targeting immigrants and refugees is not unique to Germany. Brexit was to a large extent passed by isolationism and anti-immigrant sentiment.The UK's Rwanda plan for migrants is hardly progressive. The US, hello...
It's hard for me to square the current level of public support for the AfD (around 21%) with the strong level of protest against them (which brings me some hope). I'm uncomfortable with the idea of banning a political party with that level of support; it could just deepen divisions. But maybe I'm just another North American liberal coward clutching my pearls as our own progress is rolled back.
It's sad how easily western democracies are turning inward, becoming isolationist, and are so receptive to populist authoritarian leaders and ideas, in the face of adversity. Like we've all forgotten history. Yes I have a remarkable grasp of the obvious.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:27 AM on January 21 [6 favorites]
The right targeting immigrants and refugees is not unique to Germany. Brexit was to a large extent passed by isolationism and anti-immigrant sentiment.The UK's Rwanda plan for migrants is hardly progressive. The US, hello...
It's hard for me to square the current level of public support for the AfD (around 21%) with the strong level of protest against them (which brings me some hope). I'm uncomfortable with the idea of banning a political party with that level of support; it could just deepen divisions. But maybe I'm just another North American liberal coward clutching my pearls as our own progress is rolled back.
It's sad how easily western democracies are turning inward, becoming isolationist, and are so receptive to populist authoritarian leaders and ideas, in the face of adversity. Like we've all forgotten history. Yes I have a remarkable grasp of the obvious.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:27 AM on January 21 [6 favorites]
current level of public support for the AfD (around 21%)
Lunch Discussions #145: The Crazification Factor
Well that, and a significant amount of resentment in the former East, where the promised Western wealth never really appeared. But I'm not here to defend fascists. I've had some pretty weird encounters with people in and from the former East, and I don't think we need to cater to their ignorance and provincialism.
posted by mumimor at 7:51 AM on January 21 [8 favorites]
Lunch Discussions #145: The Crazification Factor
Well that, and a significant amount of resentment in the former East, where the promised Western wealth never really appeared. But I'm not here to defend fascists. I've had some pretty weird encounters with people in and from the former East, and I don't think we need to cater to their ignorance and provincialism.
posted by mumimor at 7:51 AM on January 21 [8 favorites]
I really wish there were sympathy/solidarity marches in nearby cities outside of Germany. I would attend. Imagine if this were to spread.
posted by Chef Flamboyardee at 8:12 AM on January 21 [2 favorites]
posted by Chef Flamboyardee at 8:12 AM on January 21 [2 favorites]
These plans, and and other fascistic ideas discussed, have led to calls to ban the party altogether.
Thank you for this post Kattullus! A thing I am so far not seeing, and hope I don't see, is people saying something along the lines of "if we ban the party we're opening up the door for them to do the same thing to us"; the far right is going to do everything it can get away with and refusing to use every tool possible to defeat them is not going to prevent them from doing everything they can to defeat us.
posted by an octopus IRL at 8:43 AM on January 21 [8 favorites]
Thank you for this post Kattullus! A thing I am so far not seeing, and hope I don't see, is people saying something along the lines of "if we ban the party we're opening up the door for them to do the same thing to us"; the far right is going to do everything it can get away with and refusing to use every tool possible to defeat them is not going to prevent them from doing everything they can to defeat us.
posted by an octopus IRL at 8:43 AM on January 21 [8 favorites]
I really wish there were sympathy/solidarity marches in nearby cities outside of Germany
yeah, like here in Italy… [looks around, sees absolutely nobody]
Seriously though, German exceptionalism has believed itself into between a rock and a hard place. Now that Mutti is no more and recent events in Gaza utterly winded any residual sense of purpose or moral high ground, it’s going to get much dirtier than the fine volk thought it would ever get again… Italy electorally wholesale shifted full nostalgic, I wonder whether Germany’s federal set-up will help in resisting the similar lurch.
posted by progosk at 8:44 AM on January 21 [2 favorites]
yeah, like here in Italy… [looks around, sees absolutely nobody]
Seriously though, German exceptionalism has believed itself into between a rock and a hard place. Now that Mutti is no more and recent events in Gaza utterly winded any residual sense of purpose or moral high ground, it’s going to get much dirtier than the fine volk thought it would ever get again… Italy electorally wholesale shifted full nostalgic, I wonder whether Germany’s federal set-up will help in resisting the similar lurch.
posted by progosk at 8:44 AM on January 21 [2 favorites]
between 100 to 250 thousand people showed up, and so it was canceled out of safety concerns
Well that should show those right-wingers!
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:45 AM on January 21 [3 favorites]
Well that should show those right-wingers!
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:45 AM on January 21 [3 favorites]
Well that should show those right-wingers!
Yes. And they're politicians and businesses, that this crazy bullshit is not wanted.
Banning a political party is a complicated and long process, but it could well be that the solicitation of funds outside of legal channels could have a substantial impact.
The epilogue of the Corrective article is wonderfully succinct.
posted by From Bklyn at 9:33 AM on January 21 [1 favorite]
Yes. And they're politicians and businesses, that this crazy bullshit is not wanted.
Banning a political party is a complicated and long process, but it could well be that the solicitation of funds outside of legal channels could have a substantial impact.
The epilogue of the Corrective article is wonderfully succinct.
posted by From Bklyn at 9:33 AM on January 21 [1 favorite]
I really wish there were sympathy/solidarity marches in nearby cities outside of Germany. I would attend. Imagine if this were to spread.
Marches have to be organized by people, but people could be anyone who is concerned about the spread of fascism and far right groups - including you!
posted by eviemath at 9:45 AM on January 21 [3 favorites]
Marches have to be organized by people, but people could be anyone who is concerned about the spread of fascism and far right groups - including you!
posted by eviemath at 9:45 AM on January 21 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I was kinda expecting the make your own demo ☺️🌈✨✊ reply. There are a few factors that make that prospect a little daunting, the least of which is my status as a foreigner here, but sure.
posted by Chef Flamboyardee at 10:01 AM on January 21 [3 favorites]
posted by Chef Flamboyardee at 10:01 AM on January 21 [3 favorites]
Artful Codger ..not unique to Germany
New Zealand likewise, our new government is a three-way racist coalition (Christian Dominionists & Integralists, and two libertarian parties) coalition one of whose promises was to annul the Treaty of Waitangi TOW. This weekend 10000 Maori met to discuss response and action. The Treaty is embedded in much of NZ law and cancelling it will result in social breakdown and violence. This will have most of us on the streets as TOW is our Magna Carta.
posted by unearthed at 11:42 AM on January 21 [9 favorites]
New Zealand likewise, our new government is a three-way racist coalition (Christian Dominionists & Integralists, and two libertarian parties) coalition one of whose promises was to annul the Treaty of Waitangi TOW. This weekend 10000 Maori met to discuss response and action. The Treaty is embedded in much of NZ law and cancelling it will result in social breakdown and violence. This will have most of us on the streets as TOW is our Magna Carta.
posted by unearthed at 11:42 AM on January 21 [9 favorites]
Deutsche Welle: Germany sees second day of large anti far-right protests. Excerpt:
posted by Kattullus at 12:10 PM on January 21 [6 favorites]
An estimated 1.4 million people in Germany domstrated against the far-right Alternative for Germany party (AfD) from Friday to Sunday, according to the organizers of the events.Deutsche Welle also has a video report, which includes footage of several protests, as well as analysis.
From Friday through the weekend, demonstrations were called in about 100 locations across Germany. On Sunday, rallies were held in major cities such as Cologne, Munich and Berlin. Several other German cities, including Cottbus, Dresden and Chemnitz in the east, also planned to hold demonstrations.
In Berlin, around 100,000 gathered outside the Budestag, or the lower house of parliament, according to police figures.
Police in Munich said that some 80,000 people participated in the march, while organizers put the figure at 200,000. The march had to be called off due to overcrowding and attendees were asked to disperse.
Meanwhile, in Cologne, police sources put the number of demonstrators at around 10,000.
posted by Kattullus at 12:10 PM on January 21 [6 favorites]
Never Again Is Now is my favorite political slogan ever, and also the name of my new Emo-AnarchoPunk Band.
posted by signal at 6:09 PM on January 21 [3 favorites]
posted by signal at 6:09 PM on January 21 [3 favorites]
Mod note: A couple deleted. Please don't hound people about their own personal choices or options, and remember the guideline to speak for yourself, not others. This applies not only to making assumptions about the motivations and interior thoughts of other people, or twisting their words to represent something different than what they said, it's also about recognizing personal agency and privacy and avoiding bullying behavior. "Maybe you could do X" might be helpful or encouraging; "Explain to my satisfaction why you are not doing X" is quite different.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:03 PM on January 21 [5 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:03 PM on January 21 [5 favorites]
In response to these events, Bastian Allgeier just published an essay (via Mastodon): "My grandpa was a Nazi". It's a very illuminating look at some of the forces in play, from the very ground-level perspective of one person and their family relationships. There's a ton of useful stuff in there, but here are a few sections that stood out to me:
“My grandpa taught me that Nazis are fantastic storytellers. The new Nazis are on Tiktok and elsewhere on social media, telling great stories. Stories of safety, of simplicity, of order and justice. Stories of lives without crises. Adventure stories...”
"Things got complicated between us when I grew into a teenager. I started asking uncomfortable questions from our history lessons. But in his eyes, I was a naive boy who was brainwashed by our school system. The history books were obviously written by the enemies after the war. He was my grandpa. I tried to understand him. I thought he would have a good explanation why he is like he is. But I only saw him more and more for who he really was. His definition of strength was power, influence, money and his network of important people. Behind his jovial facade hid a cruel man. He saw himself as a puppet player and he didn't accept when his puppets didn't play the role they were supposed to. I played my role as a child and then stopped and things no longer worked out between us..."
"Our collective mistake is to underestimate the mechanisms behind all that. Even with our history. We can only keep the Nazis in check as long as they don't find step stones to get back to power. Once the pendulum swings too far in their direction it's going to be over and it's currently not looking good. My grandpa kept his views mostly hidden because he had to, to keep his facade, but not because he wanted to. He would have loved to see the AfD rise and make his opinions valid once more."
posted by ourobouros at 6:32 AM on January 22 [15 favorites]
“My grandpa taught me that Nazis are fantastic storytellers. The new Nazis are on Tiktok and elsewhere on social media, telling great stories. Stories of safety, of simplicity, of order and justice. Stories of lives without crises. Adventure stories...”
"Things got complicated between us when I grew into a teenager. I started asking uncomfortable questions from our history lessons. But in his eyes, I was a naive boy who was brainwashed by our school system. The history books were obviously written by the enemies after the war. He was my grandpa. I tried to understand him. I thought he would have a good explanation why he is like he is. But I only saw him more and more for who he really was. His definition of strength was power, influence, money and his network of important people. Behind his jovial facade hid a cruel man. He saw himself as a puppet player and he didn't accept when his puppets didn't play the role they were supposed to. I played my role as a child and then stopped and things no longer worked out between us..."
"Our collective mistake is to underestimate the mechanisms behind all that. Even with our history. We can only keep the Nazis in check as long as they don't find step stones to get back to power. Once the pendulum swings too far in their direction it's going to be over and it's currently not looking good. My grandpa kept his views mostly hidden because he had to, to keep his facade, but not because he wanted to. He would have loved to see the AfD rise and make his opinions valid once more."
posted by ourobouros at 6:32 AM on January 22 [15 favorites]
Related:
European elections
‘Anti-European’ populists on track for big gains in EU elections, says report
posted by UN at 2:06 AM on January 24 [1 favorite]
European elections
‘Anti-European’ populists on track for big gains in EU elections, says report
posted by UN at 2:06 AM on January 24 [1 favorite]
AfD loses run-off in first vote since mass-deportation story
The far-right party lost a district vote despite its candidate having a large lead two weeks ago. AfD has been the target of massive protests of late after a damning expose was published about its plans for governing.
(yay)
posted by Artful Codger at 2:36 PM on January 28 [7 favorites]
The far-right party lost a district vote despite its candidate having a large lead two weeks ago. AfD has been the target of massive protests of late after a damning expose was published about its plans for governing.
(yay)
posted by Artful Codger at 2:36 PM on January 28 [7 favorites]
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posted by Kattullus at 4:23 AM on January 21 [28 favorites]