“Maybe the kid in the hole was always a bad idea.”
February 4, 2024 8:24 AM Subscribe
WHY DON'T WE JUST KILL THE KID IN THE OMELAS HOLE, by Isabel J. Kim. An excellent Omelas riff that's just what it sounds like.
The real dead child, of course, was the concept of allegory itself.
posted by biogeo at 8:43 AM on February 4 [17 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 8:43 AM on February 4 [17 favorites]
It's funny - I think this is a smart, good story and that Clarkesworld publishes a lot of good stuff and yet reading it has reconciled me to the original Omelas story, an artifact of another time in which there was hope and an outside. It makes me fonder of Le Guin's mid-period parable stuff, which often feels a little simple-wimple to me, because she's not starting (and some of this is because she was well-off, privileged all her life, but some of it is because of the times) from the standpoint of, I guess, the capitalist sublime, where the system itself is both overwhelmingly complex and utterly predictable, and you simply can't make things better, ever, and you will recognize your own failings and inability and be cynical about them, and that won't help either.
From time to time you feel like the patient shouldn't be told the diagnosis, at least not writ so large.
~~
The abdication of belief
Makes the behavior small.
Better an ignis fatuus
Than no illume at all.
posted by Frowner at 8:48 AM on February 4 [28 favorites]
From time to time you feel like the patient shouldn't be told the diagnosis, at least not writ so large.
~~
The abdication of belief
Makes the behavior small.
Better an ignis fatuus
Than no illume at all.
posted by Frowner at 8:48 AM on February 4 [28 favorites]
an artifact of another time in which there was hope and an outside
One of the things the new story emphasized to me one more time is that while modern SF is dystopian, part of that dystopia is related to the closing of the frontier (on land and in space) and the way we're all interconnected now, reflected in this story in the talk about social media and how other people/countries deal with Omelas. It's a really existentialist feeling: hell is other people and you can't get away from them.
But it also says something about who SF has traditionally been for, who got to make that escape. The broadening of the SF author pool means people who were never going to get in that escape pod now get to write their stories. I'm glad those stories are out there, but damn, sometimes modern SF is depressing. Which makes sense, because so is modern life in the Years of Finding Out.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:59 AM on February 4 [36 favorites]
One of the things the new story emphasized to me one more time is that while modern SF is dystopian, part of that dystopia is related to the closing of the frontier (on land and in space) and the way we're all interconnected now, reflected in this story in the talk about social media and how other people/countries deal with Omelas. It's a really existentialist feeling: hell is other people and you can't get away from them.
But it also says something about who SF has traditionally been for, who got to make that escape. The broadening of the SF author pool means people who were never going to get in that escape pod now get to write their stories. I'm glad those stories are out there, but damn, sometimes modern SF is depressing. Which makes sense, because so is modern life in the Years of Finding Out.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:59 AM on February 4 [36 favorites]
I like this better than the Jemisin one, tbh.
posted by Artw at 9:04 AM on February 4 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:04 AM on February 4 [5 favorites]
gentlyepigrams, I think about that a lot, too, mostly in the context of cosmic & Lovecraftian horror. Most of the big names in that area in the last couple decades are from minoritized groups -- Files, Kiernan, LaValle, Mamatas, Moreno-Garcia, etc. Sometimes the work can be depressing, but I generally try to think of it as adjusting my perspective as a reader, redefining what "good," "victory," or "success" look like for a protagonist.
posted by cupcakeninja at 9:13 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 9:13 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
I think for me it's not so much the "there is no escape" because you only have to think about the original story for one hot minute to realize that escaping by leaving Omelas only ever functions as a metaphor, not a political direction. Taking it as a political direction - or writing it as a political direction, if it was written that way, which I don't exclude - is useless.
I think even in the mid seventies very few people could really "leave Omelas", and leaving meant a lot of sacrifice - like, I have known people who just don't engage with big capitalism, and that doesn't in fact mean living on remittances from mom and dad, it means being a really marginal traveling type who hops trains and eats out of dumpsters and whose teeth are not maintained on mom and dad's insurance but in fact are stumps falling out of your head. You have to be a very particular type of person, often with a serious history of trauma, to live like that, and two of the people I know who did so died in their thirties and forties.
But what you get from Le Guin, I think, is an automatic turn toward the belief that humans can make good societies, even if you have to have an apocalypse first (Always Coming Home) or live on a frost planet (Left Hand of Darkness) or a barren moon (The Dispossessed). As much as there's a lot to criticize in her relationship to anthropology, she does repeatedly say, "humans have lived decent lives where people were relatively safe, free and kind to each other, and we can get there again". She's also relatively uncynical about values, right to the very end - that story in The Birthday of the World about the woman who lives in the society where aloneness is really prized, for instance -there isn't a lot of recursive "do I actually value this or is it just some poisoned combination of self-interest and power creating this "I" and this "value"", which are the questions I think almost all social SF asks automatically now.
That's what is so difficult now and so often feels extremely forced and/or obviously economically incoherent ("hopepunk", "cozies") not because We Are All Less Good Than Le Guin but because the available response to the times is different.
Obviously the times will change, and obviously history doesn't end, so when it feels like you're hitting a wall at the end of the universe that just means that something is going to give, and probably soon, but honestly these times are so bad. The things that propped up optimism in the seventies weren't just that only privileged people got to talk; the financial, informational and administrative landscape just had a lot more room in it.
posted by Frowner at 9:26 AM on February 4 [32 favorites]
I think even in the mid seventies very few people could really "leave Omelas", and leaving meant a lot of sacrifice - like, I have known people who just don't engage with big capitalism, and that doesn't in fact mean living on remittances from mom and dad, it means being a really marginal traveling type who hops trains and eats out of dumpsters and whose teeth are not maintained on mom and dad's insurance but in fact are stumps falling out of your head. You have to be a very particular type of person, often with a serious history of trauma, to live like that, and two of the people I know who did so died in their thirties and forties.
But what you get from Le Guin, I think, is an automatic turn toward the belief that humans can make good societies, even if you have to have an apocalypse first (Always Coming Home) or live on a frost planet (Left Hand of Darkness) or a barren moon (The Dispossessed). As much as there's a lot to criticize in her relationship to anthropology, she does repeatedly say, "humans have lived decent lives where people were relatively safe, free and kind to each other, and we can get there again". She's also relatively uncynical about values, right to the very end - that story in The Birthday of the World about the woman who lives in the society where aloneness is really prized, for instance -there isn't a lot of recursive "do I actually value this or is it just some poisoned combination of self-interest and power creating this "I" and this "value"", which are the questions I think almost all social SF asks automatically now.
That's what is so difficult now and so often feels extremely forced and/or obviously economically incoherent ("hopepunk", "cozies") not because We Are All Less Good Than Le Guin but because the available response to the times is different.
Obviously the times will change, and obviously history doesn't end, so when it feels like you're hitting a wall at the end of the universe that just means that something is going to give, and probably soon, but honestly these times are so bad. The things that propped up optimism in the seventies weren't just that only privileged people got to talk; the financial, informational and administrative landscape just had a lot more room in it.
posted by Frowner at 9:26 AM on February 4 [32 favorites]
Ursula K. Le Guin on Time, the Measure of Loyalty, and What Responsibility Really Means
I didn’t actually realize The Dispossessed and Omelas were so close together or think about how they might speak to each other thematically before… mostly because I had Omelas firmly in the “made up metaphor parable stuff” box and The Dispossessed to me is a different kind of thing.
Also Shevek is based on Oppenheimer, who her family knew.
posted by Artw at 10:05 AM on February 4 [5 favorites]
I didn’t actually realize The Dispossessed and Omelas were so close together or think about how they might speak to each other thematically before… mostly because I had Omelas firmly in the “made up metaphor parable stuff” box and The Dispossessed to me is a different kind of thing.
Also Shevek is based on Oppenheimer, who her family knew.
posted by Artw at 10:05 AM on February 4 [5 favorites]
Kim is a real artist with that lampshade.
posted by agentofselection at 10:19 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
posted by agentofselection at 10:19 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]
This is a nice extension that both criticizes and supports the original - hard to do.
Also worth considering that for Le Guin Omelas was likely not an abstract thought experiment, but also a way to wrestle with her father’s legacy as an anthropologist, and his own relationship with Ishi, a Native American man who was used as a “living exhibit” at UC Berkeley. It’s worth noting that she started writing SF at about the same time Kroeger died. It gets taught as a cultural metaphor but for her “walking away” probably had additional, more personal layers of meaning.
posted by q*ben at 10:28 AM on February 4 [13 favorites]
Also worth considering that for Le Guin Omelas was likely not an abstract thought experiment, but also a way to wrestle with her father’s legacy as an anthropologist, and his own relationship with Ishi, a Native American man who was used as a “living exhibit” at UC Berkeley. It’s worth noting that she started writing SF at about the same time Kroeger died. It gets taught as a cultural metaphor but for her “walking away” probably had additional, more personal layers of meaning.
posted by q*ben at 10:28 AM on February 4 [13 favorites]
If you want this idea explored from the point of view of the kids, read Naomi Novik's Scholomance series. It's a hell of a ride and gut punch besides.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:46 AM on February 4 [11 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:46 AM on February 4 [11 favorites]
humans can make good societies, even if you have to have an apocalypse first (Always Coming Home) or live on a frost planet (Left Hand of Darkness) or a barren moon (The Dispossessed)
There are several fields in which coöperation is a successful strategy only in resource-poor environments (especially patchy, unpredictable ones). Patterns of mammalian evolution, economic organization, ?anthropology?.
posted by clew at 11:34 AM on February 4
There are several fields in which coöperation is a successful strategy only in resource-poor environments (especially patchy, unpredictable ones). Patterns of mammalian evolution, economic organization, ?anthropology?.
posted by clew at 11:34 AM on February 4
Before any of you are allowed to leave a comment, you must first condemn the actions of the Omelas hole kid murderers.
posted by AlSweigart at 12:03 PM on February 4 [62 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 12:03 PM on February 4 [62 favorites]
Before any of you are allowed to leave a comment, you must first condemn the actions of the Omelas hole kid murderers.
This is going to be the high water mark of this thread.
posted by mhoye at 12:11 PM on February 4 [6 favorites]
This is going to be the high water mark of this thread.
posted by mhoye at 12:11 PM on February 4 [6 favorites]
It's hard to write in the shadow of a famous story and Kim does it really well.
You rarely read anything these days that you could call "David Foster Wallace-like" -- his tics are easy to copy and don't do much on their own, while the more substantial virtues of his style are harder to draw on -- Kim does it, here.
posted by escabeche at 12:29 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
You rarely read anything these days that you could call "David Foster Wallace-like" -- his tics are easy to copy and don't do much on their own, while the more substantial virtues of his style are harder to draw on -- Kim does it, here.
posted by escabeche at 12:29 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
As for me and the kid in the well. "I'm sending my love down a hole." DOWN A HOLE!
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:35 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:35 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
It's important to have redundancy when you have such a single point of failure.
posted by donio at 12:36 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
posted by donio at 12:36 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
well. ok.
I had never read Omelas before (I have read other Le Guin, just not that) so first I read that.
then I read the Jemisin take. then I read the article from the FPP. that is quite a line up!
escabeche "load-bearing child" on repeat, definitely pinged the DFW bell for me! I found the original very thought-provoking, as it is meant to be, and the two riffs each valid and interesting in their own rights, bring some new interpretations in a new century.
posted by supermedusa at 12:50 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
I had never read Omelas before (I have read other Le Guin, just not that) so first I read that.
then I read the Jemisin take. then I read the article from the FPP. that is quite a line up!
escabeche "load-bearing child" on repeat, definitely pinged the DFW bell for me! I found the original very thought-provoking, as it is meant to be, and the two riffs each valid and interesting in their own rights, bring some new interpretations in a new century.
posted by supermedusa at 12:50 PM on February 4 [4 favorites]
It takes a lot to write a riff on a story by someone of Ursula K. Le Guin's reputation and long shadow, but Isabel J. Kim was justified in her belief that she could. That's a damn fine story.
posted by sotonohito at 2:11 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 2:11 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
There are those who walk away from Omelas.
There are those who talk about walking away from Omelas, and who never shut up about it.
There are those who would walk away from Omelas, but Jaden's in really good gateway program at his grade school right now.
Then there are those who have the load-bearing suffering child of Omelas on a sticker on the bumper of their black pickup truck.
There are those who demand that the politicians of Omelas put more children to suffer in the pit, and complain that there aren't enough suffering children to support the traditional suffering child economy.
There are those politicians of Omelas on radio talk shows who explain who having a suffering child starving in a pit is actually good for building the character, and making strong god-fearing Omelans.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 2:56 PM on February 4 [18 favorites]
There are those who talk about walking away from Omelas, and who never shut up about it.
There are those who would walk away from Omelas, but Jaden's in really good gateway program at his grade school right now.
Then there are those who have the load-bearing suffering child of Omelas on a sticker on the bumper of their black pickup truck.
There are those who demand that the politicians of Omelas put more children to suffer in the pit, and complain that there aren't enough suffering children to support the traditional suffering child economy.
There are those politicians of Omelas on radio talk shows who explain who having a suffering child starving in a pit is actually good for building the character, and making strong god-fearing Omelans.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 2:56 PM on February 4 [18 favorites]
Tthe Omelas way is so perfect, other cities should probably look into getting a LBC of their own. Debate rages as to whether Omelas should colonize other cities and install LBCs for their own good, or if the LBC tech should be kept secret in order to maintain Omelas' advantage.
posted by The otter lady at 3:29 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
posted by The otter lady at 3:29 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
Seems like a great intellectual property licensing opportunity? Only Omelas is qualified to represent the LBC.
posted by migurski at 3:38 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
posted by migurski at 3:38 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
why are they killing the child instead of just removing it from the hole and running away
posted by picklenickle at 3:39 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
posted by picklenickle at 3:39 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
Expediency and symbolism?
You could render an LBC inoperable by being nice to them fir a bit but then you’ve got to keep them somewhere and ensure they don’t get re-holed.
posted by Artw at 3:49 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
You could render an LBC inoperable by being nice to them fir a bit but then you’ve got to keep them somewhere and ensure they don’t get re-holed.
posted by Artw at 3:49 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
I assume this has been discussed at length at /r/LBC.
posted by Artw at 3:50 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:50 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
The Internet was slow here and when a page failed to load my first thought was 'damn, they must have killed the kid in the hole again...'
posted by The otter lady at 4:05 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
posted by The otter lady at 4:05 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
Hear me out; what if we put 10 kids in the hole? Or in separate holes? Would that improve Omelas by tenfold? Would it at least provide a safety buffer, especially if the holes were separate and hidden? Or, if there are 10 kids in one hole, at least they have each other for company?
What if, we require ALL children to do a stint in the hole? Say, 24-48 hrs, enough to suffer adequately but not cause much permanent damage, once a week or month or so? By spreading out the suffering among many kids, it's really not so bad for any one kid, right? And we can keep our Nice Houses.
I'm just asking questions.
posted by The otter lady at 4:12 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
What if, we require ALL children to do a stint in the hole? Say, 24-48 hrs, enough to suffer adequately but not cause much permanent damage, once a week or month or so? By spreading out the suffering among many kids, it's really not so bad for any one kid, right? And we can keep our Nice Houses.
I'm just asking questions.
posted by The otter lady at 4:12 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
If the kids die of old age and malnutrition normally, does it even have to be a kid? Could we put, say, people we don't like, or who look weird, in the hole instead? Can we put ALL of them in the hole? It might not work as well as a kid but it would get them out of sight of our Nice Houses, at least
Sorry I'll shut up now
posted by The otter lady at 4:18 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
Sorry I'll shut up now
posted by The otter lady at 4:18 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
You want to make an Omelas, you have to break a few eggs.
posted by Soliloquy at 4:20 PM on February 4 [17 favorites]
posted by Soliloquy at 4:20 PM on February 4 [17 favorites]
What a line: "we usually don’t kill the kid in the hole, they usually die of old age or malnutrition."
posted by doctornemo at 5:01 PM on February 4
posted by doctornemo at 5:01 PM on February 4
What if, we require ALL children to do a stint in the hole? Say, 24-48 hrs, enough to suffer adequately but not cause much permanent damage, once a week or month or so?
I worry the exception magic only works properly within the bounds of the hole. A perfect society isn't one in which a kid *outside* of the hole has experienced the hole and then has to deal with that for the rest of their lives.
Plus people would want to get their kids out of hole duty, and before you know it we've got like hole deferments and then we're living in domes and doing Carousels n shit.
posted by fleacircus at 5:16 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
I worry the exception magic only works properly within the bounds of the hole. A perfect society isn't one in which a kid *outside* of the hole has experienced the hole and then has to deal with that for the rest of their lives.
Plus people would want to get their kids out of hole duty, and before you know it we've got like hole deferments and then we're living in domes and doing Carousels n shit.
posted by fleacircus at 5:16 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
If there’s a time limit for the LBC period of suffering then there’s hope for the LBC, which violates the hopelessness condition.
posted by Artw at 5:33 PM on February 4 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:33 PM on February 4 [6 favorites]
Clearly the kid-in-hole magic needs further study.
I can't find it now, but I seem to recall that Kage Baker, in their Company series about time-travel, had a short story wherein the time travelers visited a lush pre-Columbian type civilization, marvelling at how the limited agriculture could sustain such a thriving city. It turned out that the secret was that certain people (possibly royalty?) had a unique type of gut flora that allowed amazing breakdown of compost into fertilizer, so one person of the line was 'sacrificed' to live in a stinking pit of filth, being fed a specific diet, so their poop could fuel the compost that fed the society.
ah, it's in Gods and Pawns, "To The Land Beyond The Sunset". I don't have it in front of me to re-read though.
posted by The otter lady at 5:37 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
I can't find it now, but I seem to recall that Kage Baker, in their Company series about time-travel, had a short story wherein the time travelers visited a lush pre-Columbian type civilization, marvelling at how the limited agriculture could sustain such a thriving city. It turned out that the secret was that certain people (possibly royalty?) had a unique type of gut flora that allowed amazing breakdown of compost into fertilizer, so one person of the line was 'sacrificed' to live in a stinking pit of filth, being fed a specific diet, so their poop could fuel the compost that fed the society.
ah, it's in Gods and Pawns, "To The Land Beyond The Sunset". I don't have it in front of me to re-read though.
posted by The otter lady at 5:37 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
I did think, briefly, that it was going to end with the Omelans realizing that you could just put an old person in the hole, and then people being ok with it.
posted by q*ben at 5:53 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
posted by q*ben at 5:53 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
If there’s a time limit for the LBC period of suffering then there’s hope for the LBC, which violates the hopelessness condition.
Ah, but, you don't tell the -kid- that! You tell them they're going in the hole forever. And they may have to stay in there quite a while, until a new kid is available! But then you DO let the kid out, and tell them it was all for the greater good, so stop whimpering in the corner and say 'thank you'.
In fact, it would be a great discipline threat; "The kid who gets the lowest grades this semester goes in the hole forever!" "Timmy, if you don't stop misbehaving, I'm going to call Them to come and take you away and put you in the hole!"
I'm not sure how you'd keep the secret about it not actually being forever, but adults have been lying to kids for a long long time, I'm sure something can be worked out.
posted by The otter lady at 5:56 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
Ah, but, you don't tell the -kid- that! You tell them they're going in the hole forever. And they may have to stay in there quite a while, until a new kid is available! But then you DO let the kid out, and tell them it was all for the greater good, so stop whimpering in the corner and say 'thank you'.
In fact, it would be a great discipline threat; "The kid who gets the lowest grades this semester goes in the hole forever!" "Timmy, if you don't stop misbehaving, I'm going to call Them to come and take you away and put you in the hole!"
I'm not sure how you'd keep the secret about it not actually being forever, but adults have been lying to kids for a long long time, I'm sure something can be worked out.
posted by The otter lady at 5:56 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
"What's the matter, Lassie? Is Timmy in the hole?"
posted by cheshyre at 6:08 PM on February 4 [8 favorites]
posted by cheshyre at 6:08 PM on February 4 [8 favorites]
We already sacrifice adults' happiness. 40-hour workweeks, socks and ties for Christmas, an afternoon at the DMV for your birthday -- who wouldn't rather live in the hole? Maybe you could have some peace and quiet in there for a fucking change.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:14 PM on February 4 [13 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:14 PM on February 4 [13 favorites]
next week on 100 Day Dream Hole (HGTV)
- neutral colors for stylish suffering
- bathroom reno: which is better.....hand-dug pit or excrement pile?
- flipping the hole : curb appeal for new young customers
posted by lalochezia at 6:20 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
- neutral colors for stylish suffering
- bathroom reno: which is better.....hand-dug pit or excrement pile?
- flipping the hole : curb appeal for new young customers
posted by lalochezia at 6:20 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
Maybe the real Kids In The Hole were the friends we made along the way
posted by The otter lady at 6:30 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
posted by The otter lady at 6:30 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
Look under your seat! You get the hole! You get the hole! You all get the hole!
posted by nickzoic at 6:30 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
posted by nickzoic at 6:30 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
You'd think the Omelasticans would be worried that now that knowledge of their their kid-in-a-hole technology is out there, other cities might start kidnapping little Omelettes and chucking them in holes for the benefit of their own cities.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:34 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:34 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
Per the Star Trek episode Those Who Fly Away From Omelas the secrets of how LBC technology works has been lost.
posted by Artw at 6:43 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:43 PM on February 4 [3 favorites]
MetaFilter: an artifact of another time in which there was hope and an outside
posted by Phssthpok at 6:46 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
posted by Phssthpok at 6:46 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
Like: “If we put a pulsating mass of tissue cultured from the cells of an Omelan child, and put that in the prison, would that have the same effect, in the same way that lab-grown-meat is still technically meat?”
Okay, I burst out laughing at this one because it is exactly what I would say. Almost-plausible technological solution that isn’t missing the point so much as determined to ignore the point in the hopes of getting the cake and eating it guilt-free?
Wasn’t about me and yet I have never been so neatly skewered. This was a gem.
posted by Ryvar at 6:51 PM on February 4 [6 favorites]
Okay, I burst out laughing at this one because it is exactly what I would say. Almost-plausible technological solution that isn’t missing the point so much as determined to ignore the point in the hopes of getting the cake and eating it guilt-free?
Wasn’t about me and yet I have never been so neatly skewered. This was a gem.
posted by Ryvar at 6:51 PM on February 4 [6 favorites]
“If we put a pulsating mass of tissue cultured from the cells of an Omelan child, and put that in the prison, would that have the same effect, in the same way that lab-grown-meat is still technically meat?”
Exordia (2024)
posted by Artw at 7:07 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
Exordia (2024)
posted by Artw at 7:07 PM on February 4 [2 favorites]
Also worth considering that for Le Guin Omelas was likely not an abstract thought experiment, but also a way to wrestle with her father’s legacy as an anthropologist, and his own relationship with Ishi, a Native American man who was used as a “living exhibit” at UC Berkeley.
Well that is startling
posted by bq at 7:38 PM on February 4
Well that is startling
posted by bq at 7:38 PM on February 4
A recent episode of the podcast Imaginary Worlds has a fascinating discussion of the history of Kroeber and Ishi, and how it intersects with LeGuin's writing career.
posted by suelac at 7:45 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
posted by suelac at 7:45 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
Exordia (2024)
Also, if your lab grown tortured being does not produce an ethical quandary you are not doing an Omelas, you are just doing Scanners live in Vein. Fine if you want to transit an FTL pain field, but I don’t think you’d be able to power a Utopia off of it.
posted by Artw at 7:46 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
Also, if your lab grown tortured being does not produce an ethical quandary you are not doing an Omelas, you are just doing Scanners live in Vein. Fine if you want to transit an FTL pain field, but I don’t think you’d be able to power a Utopia off of it.
posted by Artw at 7:46 PM on February 4 [5 favorites]
Could we put, say, people we don't like, or who look weird, in the hole instead?
Jordan Peterson must GET IN THE HOLE
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:53 PM on February 4 [8 favorites]
Jordan Peterson must GET IN THE HOLE
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:53 PM on February 4 [8 favorites]
This was a powerful piece, but I can't stop giggling at the phrase "Omelas hole".
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:56 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:56 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
The ethical dilemmas of posting hole.
posted by Artw at 8:22 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:22 PM on February 4 [7 favorites]
A recent episode of the podcast Imaginary Worlds has a fascinating discussion of the history of Kroeber and Ishi, and how it intersects with LeGuin's writing career.
Did they mention the fate of Ishi’s brain? Kroeber, despite being against any autopsy, ended up with Ishi’s brain which he gave to fellow anthropological luminary, Ales Hrdlicka. It was located in an offsite Smithsonian curation facility in 1999. About a year later Ishi’s brain and ashes were reunited and buried.
I suppose there’s grist for another Omelas riff in that tale.
posted by house-goblin at 9:30 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
Did they mention the fate of Ishi’s brain? Kroeber, despite being against any autopsy, ended up with Ishi’s brain which he gave to fellow anthropological luminary, Ales Hrdlicka. It was located in an offsite Smithsonian curation facility in 1999. About a year later Ishi’s brain and ashes were reunited and buried.
I suppose there’s grist for another Omelas riff in that tale.
posted by house-goblin at 9:30 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
The California Indian man known to us today as “Ishi” is one of the most famous Native Americans of all time. Books, plays, movies, and contemporary art exhibits have explored his life. Yet, we do not even know his true name.
posted by Artw at 9:40 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 9:40 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
Of course in reality we have many kids and adults in many rooms being tortured/ sacrificed on a continuous basis to enable the less than paradise that we dwell within. At least in Omelas it is conscious and deliberate and people are forced to accept the reality of it.
posted by interogative mood at 6:53 AM on February 5 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 6:53 AM on February 5 [1 favorite]
why are they killing the child instead of just removing it from the hole and running away
From the story:
There was no message this time because the dead kid on the table was the message. The dead kid had been dressed just like every other kid in Omelas (comfortable, affordable clothing of good quality, with adorable patterns), and it hadn’t been in the hole for long enough to develop the really horrific features that the kids in the hole always developed (open and weeping sores on their butts, skinny limbs and a protruding stomach, a sort of lank greasiness that permeated their entire being), and this third dead kid mostly just looked a little skinny, and grimy, and asleep.
They talked about it on the news, alongside photos of the dead kid dressed up in the conference room. And because the Omelans all had very good educations where they learned about the literary meaning of symbols, they knew that the dead kid in pretty clothing was a reminder of the fact that the child in the hole was also an Omelan child.
The point of terrorism is to commit terrible acts to get a much more well-equipped and funded state to stop doing their terrible acts by casting doubt on their ability to maintain control and govern, thus bringing them to the negotiating table (even if in secret).
Historically, terrorism has sometimes worked and sometimes not worked. If the history books celebrate it as freedom, then it worked. If the history books call it terrorism, it did not.
(As such, I'm not quite sure who won the American Civil War.)
“If we kill enough kids then you will eventually stop putting kids in the hole,” the murderer said. “I’m an accelerationist.”
“A lot of people died because you killed the kid.”
“I’m sorry about that,” the murderer said, and he sounded genuine. He sounded like he really cared about the well-being of all the Omelans and their susceptibility to freak accidents, but he cared about the one kid just a little more.
“How did it feel to kill?” the executioner said. This was not a question that was on the list. This was a question the executioner wanted to know for herself.
“Bad,” he said. “But it’s better than being locked in the hole for your entire life.”
Wow, a woman executioner. Omelas sure is progressive!
posted by AlSweigart at 7:07 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]
From the story:
There was no message this time because the dead kid on the table was the message. The dead kid had been dressed just like every other kid in Omelas (comfortable, affordable clothing of good quality, with adorable patterns), and it hadn’t been in the hole for long enough to develop the really horrific features that the kids in the hole always developed (open and weeping sores on their butts, skinny limbs and a protruding stomach, a sort of lank greasiness that permeated their entire being), and this third dead kid mostly just looked a little skinny, and grimy, and asleep.
They talked about it on the news, alongside photos of the dead kid dressed up in the conference room. And because the Omelans all had very good educations where they learned about the literary meaning of symbols, they knew that the dead kid in pretty clothing was a reminder of the fact that the child in the hole was also an Omelan child.
The point of terrorism is to commit terrible acts to get a much more well-equipped and funded state to stop doing their terrible acts by casting doubt on their ability to maintain control and govern, thus bringing them to the negotiating table (even if in secret).
Historically, terrorism has sometimes worked and sometimes not worked. If the history books celebrate it as freedom, then it worked. If the history books call it terrorism, it did not.
(As such, I'm not quite sure who won the American Civil War.)
“If we kill enough kids then you will eventually stop putting kids in the hole,” the murderer said. “I’m an accelerationist.”
“A lot of people died because you killed the kid.”
“I’m sorry about that,” the murderer said, and he sounded genuine. He sounded like he really cared about the well-being of all the Omelans and their susceptibility to freak accidents, but he cared about the one kid just a little more.
“How did it feel to kill?” the executioner said. This was not a question that was on the list. This was a question the executioner wanted to know for herself.
“Bad,” he said. “But it’s better than being locked in the hole for your entire life.”
Wow, a woman executioner. Omelas sure is progressive!
posted by AlSweigart at 7:07 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]
I think about that a lot, too, mostly in the context of cosmic & Lovecraftian horror. Most of the big names in that area in the last couple decades are from minoritized groups -- Files, Kiernan, LaValle, Mamatas, Moreno-Garcia, etc.
The delicious thing about minority groups adopting Lovecraftian horror is that you know that ol' Creepy Howie himself would lose his shit over all these [insert utterly inappropriate Lovecraftian descriptors here] extending his mythos and adapting his metaphors.
posted by jackbishop at 7:09 AM on February 5 [6 favorites]
The delicious thing about minority groups adopting Lovecraftian horror is that you know that ol' Creepy Howie himself would lose his shit over all these [insert utterly inappropriate Lovecraftian descriptors here] extending his mythos and adapting his metaphors.
posted by jackbishop at 7:09 AM on February 5 [6 favorites]
Italians.
posted by Artw at 7:13 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:13 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]
Wow, thanks for this post. What a horribly memorable story!
The segue from Omelas using social media in a healthy way, to the random guy who kills kid #4 after the public murders of kids #2 and #3 and quotes memes about it is something else.
The bit about the surrounding countries getting upset that it could be their kids going into the Omelas hole, but unable to take action because the suffering child protects Omelas from consequences, also.
The only thing that prevents multiple kids in multiple holes is the magic itself, otherwise they could "ethically source" some backups.
I went back to refresh my memory of Jemisin's Omelas response (available here). It's much nicer than this one, for sure.
posted by mersen at 8:53 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]
The segue from Omelas using social media in a healthy way, to the random guy who kills kid #4 after the public murders of kids #2 and #3 and quotes memes about it is something else.
The bit about the surrounding countries getting upset that it could be their kids going into the Omelas hole, but unable to take action because the suffering child protects Omelas from consequences, also.
The only thing that prevents multiple kids in multiple holes is the magic itself, otherwise they could "ethically source" some backups.
I went back to refresh my memory of Jemisin's Omelas response (available here). It's much nicer than this one, for sure.
posted by mersen at 8:53 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]
Also, if your lab grown tortured being does not produce an ethical quandary you are not doing an Omelas, you are just doing Scanners live in Vein.
If the Scanners live in your veins, you are not doing a Cordwainer Smith, you are doing a David Cronenberg, and you are definitely not going to space today because your head will be exploding.
posted by The Bellman at 8:59 AM on February 5 [3 favorites]
If the Scanners live in your veins, you are not doing a Cordwainer Smith, you are doing a David Cronenberg, and you are definitely not going to space today because your head will be exploding.
posted by The Bellman at 8:59 AM on February 5 [3 favorites]
Can’t hear you, have packed all interior spaces with oysters.
posted by Artw at 9:59 AM on February 5 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:59 AM on February 5 [3 favorites]
Hey, is "you can't kill me in a way that matters" really Harlan Ellison? It sure sounds like Ellison, but I immediately associated it with this meme.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:58 AM on February 5 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:58 AM on February 5 [1 favorite]
kittens for breakfast, it’s not an Ellison quote. I could explain it, but it would spoil the Ellison short story “‘Repent, Harlequin!’ Said the Ticktockman.”
posted by infinitewindow at 12:44 PM on February 5 [1 favorite]
posted by infinitewindow at 12:44 PM on February 5 [1 favorite]
The most meme-energy classic SF short story.
posted by Artw at 12:46 PM on February 5 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 12:46 PM on February 5 [1 favorite]
This one definitely addressed my own main reaction to Omelas, which is that you can walk away from Omelas but then it turns out that your clothes were made in Omelas - so you buy "made Away from Omelas" clothes instead, but then you learn that the fibers in your clothes were made from plants that were harvested in Omelas, and all the produce at the grocery store in Away from Omelas was also grown in Omelas, and the special type of metal that is an essential component to your laptop is only found in one mine in the entire known universe and that mine is - yep - also in Omelas.
What didn't quite work for me about this one was that it's predicated on the idea that people don't know about the kid in the hole, even though that's made quite explicit in the original story; going to look at the kid and gaining a full understanding of who the kid is and what they experience in the hole is a cultural rite of passage.
posted by capricorn at 1:01 PM on February 5 [4 favorites]
What didn't quite work for me about this one was that it's predicated on the idea that people don't know about the kid in the hole, even though that's made quite explicit in the original story; going to look at the kid and gaining a full understanding of who the kid is and what they experience in the hole is a cultural rite of passage.
posted by capricorn at 1:01 PM on February 5 [4 favorites]
Really if they were smart there would be a draft that gives everyone a stint in hole maintenance to make everyone properly complicit in Omelas.
posted by Artw at 1:14 PM on February 5
posted by Artw at 1:14 PM on February 5
And so the Ones Who Walked Away from Omelas started their own city. Like Omelas before it, it was a utopia. One where the arts and intellect flourished, they had cool stuff like sex and drugs, and modern conveniences, and yeah basically all the same nice stuff that Omelas had but no kid in the hole. And it was fully economically independent from Omelas and completely self-sufficient, too.
"It works," they said, "Because we saw what happened in Omelas, you know, with the kid. That was terrible. We just did the same things but without the kid, and it works fine."
And so many generations passed in peace and harmony. But then eventually enough generations had passed that people started to question whether Omelas was actually real or just a parable, or a thought experiment. An origin myth of sorts. Some looked for historical evidence of Omelas, and there was some, but it wasn't conclusive. And slowly, bad things started happening again. Deceit, envy, greed, bad traffic, hangovers. All of it.
So the new city reopened its borders and allowed immigration from Omelas. And as long as there were people who had experienced Omelas firsthand and chosen to walk away there was once again utopia, peace, harmony. Thus it went. With Omelas in living memory, utopia. Without it, a steady descent back into the mundane horrors and multiple evils of everyday life.
Assuming this effect works perfectly: should we create Omelas every so often to regain the power of the choice to walk away?
(Note: this isn't really engaging with the premise of LeGuin's original story but is more about other stuff)
posted by capricorn at 2:02 PM on February 5 [4 favorites]
"It works," they said, "Because we saw what happened in Omelas, you know, with the kid. That was terrible. We just did the same things but without the kid, and it works fine."
And so many generations passed in peace and harmony. But then eventually enough generations had passed that people started to question whether Omelas was actually real or just a parable, or a thought experiment. An origin myth of sorts. Some looked for historical evidence of Omelas, and there was some, but it wasn't conclusive. And slowly, bad things started happening again. Deceit, envy, greed, bad traffic, hangovers. All of it.
So the new city reopened its borders and allowed immigration from Omelas. And as long as there were people who had experienced Omelas firsthand and chosen to walk away there was once again utopia, peace, harmony. Thus it went. With Omelas in living memory, utopia. Without it, a steady descent back into the mundane horrors and multiple evils of everyday life.
Assuming this effect works perfectly: should we create Omelas every so often to regain the power of the choice to walk away?
(Note: this isn't really engaging with the premise of LeGuin's original story but is more about other stuff)
posted by capricorn at 2:02 PM on February 5 [4 favorites]
Author of this story also has a podcast called Wow If True
posted by wowenthusiast at 7:23 PM on February 5 [1 favorite]
posted by wowenthusiast at 7:23 PM on February 5 [1 favorite]
@atherton.bsky.social
Omelas home prices
Omelas median rent
Omelas 2br
Omelas 1br
Omelas studio
Omelas sublet
Omelas how much does it cost to be the person who lives in the hole
Omelas can you sublet the oubliette
posted by Artw at 9:31 PM on February 5 [8 favorites]
Omelas home prices
Omelas median rent
Omelas 2br
Omelas 1br
Omelas studio
Omelas sublet
Omelas how much does it cost to be the person who lives in the hole
Omelas can you sublet the oubliette
posted by Artw at 9:31 PM on February 5 [8 favorites]
This is just to say
I have killed
the kid
that was in
the hole
and which
was probably
essential
to the city
Forgive me
it felt bad
but not as bad
as being locked in the hole
posted by Phssthpok at 10:33 PM on February 5 [10 favorites]
I have killed
the kid
that was in
the hole
and which
was probably
essential
to the city
Forgive me
it felt bad
but not as bad
as being locked in the hole
posted by Phssthpok at 10:33 PM on February 5 [10 favorites]
I got the impression that the people in Omelas did know about the kid all along, and were just complacent because the system was working. People accepted the fact of the kid, or walked away. The situation was fine until people started making it weird by staying and killing the kid instead.
(And by the end, it seems like there's a new status quo of Schrodinger's Omelas Kid that also works for most people, just with more murders and more disasters.)
posted by mersen at 7:27 AM on February 6 [2 favorites]
(And by the end, it seems like there's a new status quo of Schrodinger's Omelas Kid that also works for most people, just with more murders and more disasters.)
posted by mersen at 7:27 AM on February 6 [2 favorites]
An intriguing piece by Kurt Schiller that responds to responses of Omelas (incl. the Jemisin piece). He addresses the way these responses often elide the part where the author asks the reader for belief and what that means, how they sometimes respond to the popular conception of Omelas rather than the text itself, and how the ambiguity creates a discomfort which is essential in engaging LeGuin's original piece. [src]
And on the other side of things, cohost is currently going wild with #omelas posting. Some examples: Tom Scott visits Omelas, Scene from Omelas Heist (20X6).
posted by Eideteker at 10:56 PM on February 6 [6 favorites]
And on the other side of things, cohost is currently going wild with #omelas posting. Some examples: Tom Scott visits Omelas, Scene from Omelas Heist (20X6).
posted by Eideteker at 10:56 PM on February 6 [6 favorites]
Eideteker, thank you for sharing that essay. It says everything I want to say about LeGuin's Omelas and the blunt, rather shallow readings of it that seem so common. And better than I would have said it. It is a relief to see it put into words.
posted by biogeo at 5:59 AM on February 7 [2 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 5:59 AM on February 7 [2 favorites]
It's worth noting, in responding to Omelas, that one of Le Guin's central beliefs (and one that makes its way into a lot of her fiction) is that there can be no such thing as a completed utopia. Creating a better world, for Le Guin, is always and inevitably a process which must be continued and re-chosen at every moment. There's no way to rest on your laurels and be "done", and in fact the desire to do that very thing is at the root of why societies go horribly wrong.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:05 PM on February 7 [7 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:05 PM on February 7 [7 favorites]
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posted by infinitewindow at 8:34 AM on February 4 [2 favorites]