A genre of swords and soulmates
February 22, 2024 4:53 AM Subscribe
"Romantasy 'allows women to have it all', says Christina Clark-Brown, who shares book recommendations on the Instagram page ninas_nook. 'There is no damsel who needs saving but rather women are allowed to be powerful, go on epic quests, and find love with a partner who is an equal to them in every way.'" The Guardian has some exciting news for you [Archive] about romantasy. Is what's described, though, a never-before-seen phenomenon? (Of course not.)
Please note that there is a very long history of deriding romance fiction, the most popular of the popular fiction genres, largely due to misogyny. Please also note that there is a very short history of deriding romantasy fiction, perhaps for similar reasons.
It would be cool if we could discuss without contributing to contempt for genres and subgenres that center the experiences of women, and increasingly LGBTQ+ characters.
Please note that there is a very long history of deriding romance fiction, the most popular of the popular fiction genres, largely due to misogyny. Please also note that there is a very short history of deriding romantasy fiction, perhaps for similar reasons.
It would be cool if we could discuss without contributing to contempt for genres and subgenres that center the experiences of women, and increasingly LGBTQ+ characters.
Don't know if the label is needed, but the subgenre is clearly scratching a lot of itches.
I'm trying to shoehorn a Romance (or romance) subplot into my current WIP (not fantasy, more alternate history), but it's hard to write something that actually resonates.
posted by signal at 5:22 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I'm trying to shoehorn a Romance (or romance) subplot into my current WIP (not fantasy, more alternate history), but it's hard to write something that actually resonates.
posted by signal at 5:22 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I love the whole ‘he murdered your whole family, but now you’re going to fall in love’
Ew.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:34 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
Ew.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:34 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
I feel like I'm not totally clear on the boundaries of what is and isn't "romantasy". I read a fair amount of romance with fantasy elements (and fantasy with romance elements), but I feel like the stuff I read isn't included in the category. Does romantasy have to be high fantasy? I would say that my sweet spot is plot-driven queer historical low fantasy romance which, when I write it out like that, sounds kind of ridiculously specific.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:34 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:34 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
I (a CIS dude-ly dude who once worked in a B. Dalton) avoided any book tagged as "romance" like the plague...until I read Ursula Vernon's Swordheart and Paladin's Grace, and now my eyes are opened.
I am still not sure what's different about those books that didn't turn me off -- maybe that they were just really good fantasy books, and the romance-in-the-old--paperback-sense wasn't the main thing?
But I am all for this genre if the books are as good as those were!
posted by wenestvedt at 5:36 AM on February 22 [14 favorites]
I am still not sure what's different about those books that didn't turn me off -- maybe that they were just really good fantasy books, and the romance-in-the-old--paperback-sense wasn't the main thing?
But I am all for this genre if the books are as good as those were!
posted by wenestvedt at 5:36 AM on February 22 [14 favorites]
It does feel a bit like it's being used to describe any fantasy novel with a female protagonist who has a reasonably satisfying love life. I keep seeing people mention Robin McKinley's Blue Sword and Hero and the Crown as foundational examples, which are books I loved but I would not consider the protag's romantic relationships to be the primary plotline. But TBH a tag for that probably is somewhat useful, I saw someone comment elsewhere that they take it to mean "not GRRM".
posted by Rhedyn at 5:50 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
posted by Rhedyn at 5:50 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
Well, Sturgeon's law still holds. I think the problem is that many (most?) people judge Romance by the bottom 90%, instead of the top 10%. Same thing happens for most 'genre' fiction.
But, compare the best Romance books with your middle-of-the-road LitFic about a teacher banging his students while thinking deep thoughts? I'd pick the Romance any day.
posted by signal at 5:51 AM on February 22 [20 favorites]
But, compare the best Romance books with your middle-of-the-road LitFic about a teacher banging his students while thinking deep thoughts? I'd pick the Romance any day.
posted by signal at 5:51 AM on February 22 [20 favorites]
A lot of romantasy readers consider Legends & Lattes to be in their wheelhouse, which I can totally see. I remember looking for The Very Secret Society of Irregular Witches at B&N, which I've heard good things about, and finding out that it was in Romance, not Fantasy. I still don't have it, but at least now I know where to look. I've also read the first 6-7 books in the Undead & Unwed series, which was fun.
On reddit, I've been lurking in thee Fantasy Romance and Paranormal Romance subreddits because authors/publishers will offer up free books pretty regularly. Book recommendations regularly include those that I'd categorize as fantasy, so I'd say that romantasy includes decent sized swatches of both fantasy and romance. It definitely includes a lot. There's scary grimdark stuff (one book review spoiler blocked its trigger warnings, because there were a lot of them, and the book went to some really dark places) and there's a lot of silly stuff, like an upcoming cheese shifter romance.
There's something for almost everyone.
posted by Spike Glee at 5:54 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
On reddit, I've been lurking in thee Fantasy Romance and Paranormal Romance subreddits because authors/publishers will offer up free books pretty regularly. Book recommendations regularly include those that I'd categorize as fantasy, so I'd say that romantasy includes decent sized swatches of both fantasy and romance. It definitely includes a lot. There's scary grimdark stuff (one book review spoiler blocked its trigger warnings, because there were a lot of them, and the book went to some really dark places) and there's a lot of silly stuff, like an upcoming cheese shifter romance.
There's something for almost everyone.
posted by Spike Glee at 5:54 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
Also, has anyone written anything smart about how people who got their start writing fanfiction are changing the romance/ fantasy/ romantasy landscape? I feel like there's maybe been a bit of a sea-change: when I first became aware of it, authors treated their fan-fic past like a bit of a dirty secret, and now there are terrific and popular writers like Tamsin Muir and Freya Marske who are just like "yup, I learned to write by writing fanfiction, and here is how it made me a better writer."
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:56 AM on February 22 [16 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:56 AM on February 22 [16 favorites]
But TBH a tag for that probably is somewhat useful, I saw someone comment elsewhere that they take it to mean "not GRRM".
*Tamora Pierce, Katherine Kurtz, C. J. Cherryh, and Catherine Asaro enter the scene at the head of a column of authors stretching into the distance and over the hills. The Great Dragon Le Guin flies above them*
cheese shifter romance
!!!! I first thought some sort of "cheddar by day, brie by night" situation, but then I searched and saw this: "Violette inherits a cheese shop from her great-uncle. When she goes to clean it up, she discovers a hidden basement. Inside are four mysterious men who are human at night and cheese by day."
posted by cupcakeninja at 6:02 AM on February 22 [27 favorites]
*Tamora Pierce, Katherine Kurtz, C. J. Cherryh, and Catherine Asaro enter the scene at the head of a column of authors stretching into the distance and over the hills. The Great Dragon Le Guin flies above them*
cheese shifter romance
!!!! I first thought some sort of "cheddar by day, brie by night" situation, but then I searched and saw this: "Violette inherits a cheese shop from her great-uncle. When she goes to clean it up, she discovers a hidden basement. Inside are four mysterious men who are human at night and cheese by day."
posted by cupcakeninja at 6:02 AM on February 22 [27 favorites]
There is no damsel who needs saving but rather women are allowed to be powerful, go on epic quests, and find love with a partner who is an equal to them in every way.'"
I'm not really a fantasy reader, with or without romance, but a book that followed this sentence sounds pretty good to me. That certainly wasn't a feature of any of the fantasy books I read back in the day, nor, as noted above, is it a feature of GRRM and the authors who are imitating his style.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:07 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
I'm not really a fantasy reader, with or without romance, but a book that followed this sentence sounds pretty good to me. That certainly wasn't a feature of any of the fantasy books I read back in the day, nor, as noted above, is it a feature of GRRM and the authors who are imitating his style.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:07 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
I desperately hope that AO3 is well funded and well managed into the future as it's clear to me now how fucking vital it is for new voices to find their feet and then strike out into professional success.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:19 AM on February 22 [17 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:19 AM on February 22 [17 favorites]
Following writers' accounts as I do, all I heard about this article is how out of touch it is. As with category romance, the journalist seems to have started far behind the state of the art.
Again, I am torn between a wish to avoid misogynistic derision for the interests of young women and the deep sense that some BookTokers encourage the worst in reading habits. I am a big fan and even a writer of fanfic, but if I never see another book marketed to me with a list of tropes, it'll be too soon. I don't care if, say, it's "enemies to lovers" unless I care about the people who find themselves enemies and/or lovers. That's why trope lists are effective for fanfic selection -- you know these guys! (And it's usually guys. That's a whole other topic.)
Not to piss on the topic, though -- not at all. I really enjoy a lot of books that would be categorized as romantasy if they were published today. I also enjoy Ursula Vernon/T. Kingfisher and KJ Charles, who may or may not embrace the label.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:25 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
Again, I am torn between a wish to avoid misogynistic derision for the interests of young women and the deep sense that some BookTokers encourage the worst in reading habits. I am a big fan and even a writer of fanfic, but if I never see another book marketed to me with a list of tropes, it'll be too soon. I don't care if, say, it's "enemies to lovers" unless I care about the people who find themselves enemies and/or lovers. That's why trope lists are effective for fanfic selection -- you know these guys! (And it's usually guys. That's a whole other topic.)
Not to piss on the topic, though -- not at all. I really enjoy a lot of books that would be categorized as romantasy if they were published today. I also enjoy Ursula Vernon/T. Kingfisher and KJ Charles, who may or may not embrace the label.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:25 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
(Oh, and Spinning Silver by Naomi Novik, who not only got her start in fanfic but gave so many others their start by spearheading AO3)
posted by Countess Elena at 6:26 AM on February 22 [10 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 6:26 AM on February 22 [10 favorites]
As a woman who made it through late elementary school/middle school on gothic novels/bodice rippers and Tolkein etc, and literally and completely stopped reading the latter around puberty because I couldn't figure out why, like, there aren't more girls and why characters weren't flirting and hooking up with each other especially given the stressful situations I 100% approve of this whole genre as a concept, even if I havent' quite gotten around to reading any of it yet.
posted by thivaia at 6:29 AM on February 22 [6 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 6:29 AM on February 22 [6 favorites]
I saw a good bit of eye-rolling about this among established female fantasy authors over on Bluesky. Although there was some appreciation for romantasy as a marketing term since it could be used to get better recommendations, with several people saying that when they ask for female-centered fantasy, inevitably some dude will just see the word "fantasy" and will roll into the conversation to recommend some grimdark Game of Thrones inspired books he liked.
posted by indexy at 6:34 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
posted by indexy at 6:34 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
That certainly wasn't a feature of any of the fantasy books I read back in the day,
It is absolutely a feature of a metric ton of fantasy written in the last twenty years! It has been a feature of rather a lot of fantasy written by women (and conveniently forgotten every time the Guardian writes an article about SF) for the past many decades!
"Romantasy" as a subgenre is for sure a thing that's hot right now, speaking as a bookseller - tons of romance-structured stories set in fantastical worlds or with fantasy elements. I'm all for it, and think it is a natural outgrowth of an entire generation of teens growing up on Twilight and the Hunger Games and looking for both the romance elements of those stories and the fantasy elements (and for sure the presence and ease-of-use of AO3 in finding both things in any form or IP you like.) My only concern is that it becomes yet another way to disqualify women's work from being "serious" SF - I'm absolutely already seeing works described as "romantasy" because they are fantasy novels with female protagonists that may or may not contain a romantic relationship and/or explicit sex. (The same thing very much happens with "young adult" as a label - women's writing is much more likely to be categorized and sold as YA regardless of content, and sneered at thereof.)
posted by restless_nomad at 6:46 AM on February 22 [20 favorites]
It is absolutely a feature of a metric ton of fantasy written in the last twenty years! It has been a feature of rather a lot of fantasy written by women (and conveniently forgotten every time the Guardian writes an article about SF) for the past many decades!
"Romantasy" as a subgenre is for sure a thing that's hot right now, speaking as a bookseller - tons of romance-structured stories set in fantastical worlds or with fantasy elements. I'm all for it, and think it is a natural outgrowth of an entire generation of teens growing up on Twilight and the Hunger Games and looking for both the romance elements of those stories and the fantasy elements (and for sure the presence and ease-of-use of AO3 in finding both things in any form or IP you like.) My only concern is that it becomes yet another way to disqualify women's work from being "serious" SF - I'm absolutely already seeing works described as "romantasy" because they are fantasy novels with female protagonists that may or may not contain a romantic relationship and/or explicit sex. (The same thing very much happens with "young adult" as a label - women's writing is much more likely to be categorized and sold as YA regardless of content, and sneered at thereof.)
posted by restless_nomad at 6:46 AM on February 22 [20 favorites]
It is absolutely a feature of a metric ton of fantasy written in the last twenty years!
Most of my fantasy reading predates that (geez this makes me feel old) so I mostly missed that change in the market, with a few exceptions. I might have stayed reading the genre longer if there had been more available; even as a teenage boy, I got tired of the cliched "young man goes on a quest" plots and moved on in my reading.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:52 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
Most of my fantasy reading predates that (geez this makes me feel old) so I mostly missed that change in the market, with a few exceptions. I might have stayed reading the genre longer if there had been more available; even as a teenage boy, I got tired of the cliched "young man goes on a quest" plots and moved on in my reading.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:52 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
At a recent bookstore event Martha Wells confirmed that the Murderbot series is a romance between a sec-unit and a giant spaceship, so there’s that.
posted by Artw at 6:54 AM on February 22 [32 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:54 AM on February 22 [32 favorites]
Thirding Ursula Vernon/T. Kingfisher. I think Swordheart is a good gateway into the World of the White Rat, or you can start with the Paladin series.
I would also say Lois McMaster Bujold's The Curse of Chalion and Paladin of Souls are Romantasy adjacent, at least.
posted by fings at 7:10 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
I would also say Lois McMaster Bujold's The Curse of Chalion and Paladin of Souls are Romantasy adjacent, at least.
posted by fings at 7:10 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
I would also say Lois McMaster Bujold's The Curse of Chalion and Paladin of Souls are Romantasy adjacent, at least.
In that they are written by a woman, are fantasy, and contain a romantic relationship, yeah.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:12 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
In that they are written by a woman, are fantasy, and contain a romantic relationship, yeah.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:12 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
Has someone made a clever portmanteau for RomanceSF? I loved Lois McMaster Bujold's Shards of Honor and a lot of the rest of the Vorcosigan saga. It's ancient history, I know...
posted by hovey at 7:20 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
posted by hovey at 7:20 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
Has someone made a clever portmanteau for RomanceSF? I
"Science Friction"?
posted by Dip Flash at 7:21 AM on February 22 [32 favorites]
"Science Friction"?
posted by Dip Flash at 7:21 AM on February 22 [32 favorites]
Just off the top of my head: Mary Robinette Kowal's Glamourist series, Deborah Harkness's All Souls trilogy, Kim Harrison's Hollows series
posted by indexy at 7:23 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
posted by indexy at 7:23 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
Really appreciate the different perspectives on past and current reading here. I remember a time when you could walk into Waldenbooks or B. Dalton and find displays featuring J.R.R. Tolkien, Terry Brooks, and Piers Anthony, as well as the B&N & Borders equivalents 15-20 years later, when you were offered Orson Scott Card, Robert Jordan, L.E. Modesitt, and Terry Goodkind. More books were available, but how many weren't by dudes with Gandalf beards or funny hats (or both) was another matter, let alone how many copies were on the shelf for how long.
To be clear: I am not waxing nostalgic for that, however many of those authors' books I read, only pointing out that I don't think it's a surprise that many SFF readers didn't wind up reading outside a relatively small, relatively homogeneous set of authors. In my personal experience before ebook readers and books on phones, when I was riding the bus or whatever, those names listed above accounted for a whole lot of what I saw fantasy readers reading. I was always excited then (as now) to talk with people reading deeply or widely in ways that I didn't, or who could introduce me to a new author.
Also want to throw into the mix Joanna Russ' How to Suppress Women's Writing.
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:37 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
To be clear: I am not waxing nostalgic for that, however many of those authors' books I read, only pointing out that I don't think it's a surprise that many SFF readers didn't wind up reading outside a relatively small, relatively homogeneous set of authors. In my personal experience before ebook readers and books on phones, when I was riding the bus or whatever, those names listed above accounted for a whole lot of what I saw fantasy readers reading. I was always excited then (as now) to talk with people reading deeply or widely in ways that I didn't, or who could introduce me to a new author.
Also want to throw into the mix Joanna Russ' How to Suppress Women's Writing.
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:37 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
I'm a late-40's white guy, so not the target audience, but I've enjoyed the hell out of a lot of romance and romantic comedy books this last couple of years. As a genre, it always felt like it Was Not For Me - starting literally with my gran and 'hands off' her Harlequin romances as a pre-teen, to the way that they're marketed, and of course the rampant public misogyny entrenching them as just a 'guilty pleasure' for women, that'd I'd internalised.
I can't say I've had my worldview totally rewritten by reading them (though I did have to ask my wife to explain the focus on forearms!) - just mostly good stories, interesting characters, and generally a lot of miserable people unexpectedly finding joy come back into their lives. And they can definitely vary from sugar-sweet to downright harrowing (Colleen Hoover, I'm looking at you here), and like everything, quality can vary - but I've started a lot more bad fantasy or scifi books, for sure. I have added several authors directly to my 'buy without asking' list. But a 'guilty' pleasure? What bollocks, and screw the patriarchy for labelling them as such. A good book is a good book regardless of genre, and I wish I'd figured that out much sooner.
I do so wish I could wrap up some of them and send them back in a time-travel parcel to teenage me though; I would have learned so much - about healthy relationships, honest communication, sex positivity, and being a good partner - that would have avoided so much pain figuring it out the hard way. Imagine if such stories were on mandatory reading lists, as a counter to Andrew Tate et al.
I've not delved into romantasy specifically yet; but thinking about it, I loved a lot of about the Pern books (albeit being of their time) and pretty much all of Ursula Le Guin growing up, and more recently series like Mistborn and of course anything Murderbot ; would definitely like more Fantasy stories that aren't the usual the white guy saviour viewpoint, and I'll be checking out recommendations from here!
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 7:37 AM on February 22 [13 favorites]
I can't say I've had my worldview totally rewritten by reading them (though I did have to ask my wife to explain the focus on forearms!) - just mostly good stories, interesting characters, and generally a lot of miserable people unexpectedly finding joy come back into their lives. And they can definitely vary from sugar-sweet to downright harrowing (Colleen Hoover, I'm looking at you here), and like everything, quality can vary - but I've started a lot more bad fantasy or scifi books, for sure. I have added several authors directly to my 'buy without asking' list. But a 'guilty' pleasure? What bollocks, and screw the patriarchy for labelling them as such. A good book is a good book regardless of genre, and I wish I'd figured that out much sooner.
I do so wish I could wrap up some of them and send them back in a time-travel parcel to teenage me though; I would have learned so much - about healthy relationships, honest communication, sex positivity, and being a good partner - that would have avoided so much pain figuring it out the hard way. Imagine if such stories were on mandatory reading lists, as a counter to Andrew Tate et al.
I've not delved into romantasy specifically yet; but thinking about it, I loved a lot of about the Pern books (albeit being of their time) and pretty much all of Ursula Le Guin growing up, and more recently series like Mistborn and of course anything Murderbot ; would definitely like more Fantasy stories that aren't the usual the white guy saviour viewpoint, and I'll be checking out recommendations from here!
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 7:37 AM on February 22 [13 favorites]
restless nomad: My only concern is that it becomes yet another way to disqualify women's work from being "serious" SF...
Holy cow, STRONG AGREE. In fact, I would prefer that "serious SF" be improved across the board by adding these elements as a baseline expectation. In other words, an analog to the Bechtel Test should not be a sieve that only finds a few things, it should be a test that filters out the worst of the worst.
A boy can dream...
posted by wenestvedt at 7:49 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
Holy cow, STRONG AGREE. In fact, I would prefer that "serious SF" be improved across the board by adding these elements as a baseline expectation. In other words, an analog to the Bechtel Test should not be a sieve that only finds a few things, it should be a test that filters out the worst of the worst.
A boy can dream...
posted by wenestvedt at 7:49 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
Did I miss mention of Mary Robinette Kowal's Shades of Milk and Honey and the other books in that series?
It's good historical fiction, plus a cool magic system, and a great sense of Austen's mannered society. Love it!
posted by wenestvedt at 7:52 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
It's good historical fiction, plus a cool magic system, and a great sense of Austen's mannered society. Love it!
posted by wenestvedt at 7:52 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I see these articles and think "y'all need to give Sharon Shinn and Jacqueline Carey some residuals."
Shinn's Archangel trilogy is technically science fiction but also not. It's flying people, whatever the reason. All of her books are romance-fantasy-science fiction.
Jacqueline Carey's covers look like romance covers because they are. 100%. And also full of trigger warnings, which I think is part of their appeal. A lot of these romantacy books would also fit into the good old dark fantasy genre, and all of its doyennes. They're not all light and whimsy.
posted by fiercekitten at 7:59 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
Shinn's Archangel trilogy is technically science fiction but also not. It's flying people, whatever the reason. All of her books are romance-fantasy-science fiction.
Jacqueline Carey's covers look like romance covers because they are. 100%. And also full of trigger warnings, which I think is part of their appeal. A lot of these romantacy books would also fit into the good old dark fantasy genre, and all of its doyennes. They're not all light and whimsy.
posted by fiercekitten at 7:59 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
I do feel like there's a new style in fantasy that I wasn't seeing before about 2012 or so, where the romance element dominates but the fantasy element is well-integrated and essential. This differs from fantasy where a romance plot is distinctly secondary and romance novels with fantasy elements that are not essential to the plot - romances that would hold up if you swapped the fantasy setting for a non-magical world. Even when you consider, eg, an older fic-inflected fantasy with a romantic element, like Swordspoint, the romance isn't the main emphasis of the plot.
There are a lot of fantasy novels with romance subplots and a reasonable number of romances with fantasy backdrops, but I can't think of a lot prior to 2012 where the romance is the most important part but the secondary fantasy plot is essential and well-integrated. Critically, here, the romance plot is a romance novel plot, too - like, many novels from Bleak House to Tripmaster Monkey have romances that are integral to the plot, but they are handled in a different "non-romantic" mode.
I think this is pretty neat, actually, even though only a few of the books are really my cup of tea. It's interesting to see subgenres emerging and developing.
~~
The influence of fanfic is fine, but people have to enjoy fanfic to enjoy it , and sometimes one doesn't. I have such mixed feelings, because I've run across such a lot of tropey books and stories lately, and it gets really fatiguing - I don't really want Buffy dialogue and "I'm fine, I-" followed by a speaking look and a lot of angst unless I'm on Ao3. (Like, no dialogue with dashes and ellipses that is meant to convey unacknowledged passion crossed with a sensitive temperment, NONE, unless I am reading a good old Inception fanfic or similar.)
Mostly the key is to accept that not all trends will be for you and to read reviews.
posted by Frowner at 8:00 AM on February 22 [14 favorites]
There are a lot of fantasy novels with romance subplots and a reasonable number of romances with fantasy backdrops, but I can't think of a lot prior to 2012 where the romance is the most important part but the secondary fantasy plot is essential and well-integrated. Critically, here, the romance plot is a romance novel plot, too - like, many novels from Bleak House to Tripmaster Monkey have romances that are integral to the plot, but they are handled in a different "non-romantic" mode.
I think this is pretty neat, actually, even though only a few of the books are really my cup of tea. It's interesting to see subgenres emerging and developing.
~~
The influence of fanfic is fine, but people have to enjoy fanfic to enjoy it , and sometimes one doesn't. I have such mixed feelings, because I've run across such a lot of tropey books and stories lately, and it gets really fatiguing - I don't really want Buffy dialogue and "I'm fine, I-" followed by a speaking look and a lot of angst unless I'm on Ao3. (Like, no dialogue with dashes and ellipses that is meant to convey unacknowledged passion crossed with a sensitive temperment, NONE, unless I am reading a good old Inception fanfic or similar.)
Mostly the key is to accept that not all trends will be for you and to read reviews.
posted by Frowner at 8:00 AM on February 22 [14 favorites]
So true re Sharon Shinn. Her Twelve Houses series are just about my ideal for romance.
posted by Rhedyn at 8:07 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
posted by Rhedyn at 8:07 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
MetaFilter: dialogue with dashes and ellipses that is meant to convey unacknowledged passion crossed with a sensitive temperment.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:09 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
posted by wenestvedt at 8:09 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
In re romantic science fiction, one hears a lot of chatter recently about Prophet by Helen MacDonald and Sin Blanche, which is discussed here at Strange Horizons.
I'm reading it right now. I think it's quite good, but TBQH the fanfic dialogue/romance is driving me up the wall, I don't quite know why. I think it's just because I wish it were a romance that was written in a less tropey mode - I like the characters, I like the plot and I wish that I felt more confidence in the consistency/depth of their characterization in this one regard.
I like fanfic tropes and romances, but I like them in a very specific "real people aren't like this, someone who talked like this and angsted like this and obsessed about their romantic feelings like this would be an incredibly miserable person who got on everyone's nerves, not a romantic hero" way. I think that's why some of the romantasy-marked stuff I'm encountering doesn't work for me - when I'm reading SF or fantasy, obviously I'm not reading for mimetic realism, but there's a certain kind of "I can believe that if physics were different and/or the gods existed the world would work this way" headspace that I'm in, and fanfic tropes really disrupt that for me unless I'm reading fanfic.
I understand that Prophet intentionally plays with these tropes, but it's still a weirdly tough read for me.
posted by Frowner at 8:11 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I'm reading it right now. I think it's quite good, but TBQH the fanfic dialogue/romance is driving me up the wall, I don't quite know why. I think it's just because I wish it were a romance that was written in a less tropey mode - I like the characters, I like the plot and I wish that I felt more confidence in the consistency/depth of their characterization in this one regard.
I like fanfic tropes and romances, but I like them in a very specific "real people aren't like this, someone who talked like this and angsted like this and obsessed about their romantic feelings like this would be an incredibly miserable person who got on everyone's nerves, not a romantic hero" way. I think that's why some of the romantasy-marked stuff I'm encountering doesn't work for me - when I'm reading SF or fantasy, obviously I'm not reading for mimetic realism, but there's a certain kind of "I can believe that if physics were different and/or the gods existed the world would work this way" headspace that I'm in, and fanfic tropes really disrupt that for me unless I'm reading fanfic.
I understand that Prophet intentionally plays with these tropes, but it's still a weirdly tough read for me.
posted by Frowner at 8:11 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
Further to Prophet, if you aren't getting enough substantial and plot driven fic with tropey heroes, you will like it and should definitely buy it.
(note, there are TWO authors, both of whom use they/them - I know someone who goes by "Sin" and uses she/her and auto-type took over.)
posted by Frowner at 8:14 AM on February 22
(note, there are TWO authors, both of whom use they/them - I know someone who goes by "Sin" and uses she/her and auto-type took over.)
posted by Frowner at 8:14 AM on February 22
This is definitely a genre I enjoy, and most crucially it’s gotten me more into reading again and less staring at social media on my phone. Being able to write a story in a way that I’ll tear through 1000 pages in a week is a whole amazing skill that I’ll certainly never have. I’m glad I took the time to get over the idea that an entertaining story wasn’t something worth my time.
I also like being able to talk to people in the world about things and I feel like I don’t watch a lot of the same tv shows as anyone else anymore, so being able to chitchat with, like, my dental hygienist about Fourth Wing is quite nice.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 8:23 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I also like being able to talk to people in the world about things and I feel like I don’t watch a lot of the same tv shows as anyone else anymore, so being able to chitchat with, like, my dental hygienist about Fourth Wing is quite nice.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 8:23 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I picked up Sarah J Maas' A Court of Thorns and Roses after seeing her mentioned a lot in these discussions and I liked it enough to buy the sequel. Ironically I did not find it all that romantic, I'd say it's the least romantic of all the many Beauty and the Beast riffs I've read over the years.
posted by Rhedyn at 8:31 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
posted by Rhedyn at 8:31 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I found Prophet an interesting read, but it really didn't succeed as a novel for me. I love reading fanfiction, and Prophet for sure reads a lot like fic, but, like, that's not really a good thing in a standalone novel. Prophet reads like fanfiction of a canon you haven't seen. The plot of it holds up okay, but the relationship between the leads was wholly unconvincing to me specifically because it was written like fic, like I was supposed to already be invested in and believing in this relationship. Tbh, this might still have worked for me if only Prophet wasn't so clearly Arthur/Eames from Inception fic, because that was a fandom ship that was wholly lacking in any emotional interest to me; there simply wasn't enough there there, in either the characters themselves or their relationship. Like, if this was thinly veiled Kirk/Spock fic, I might have rolled with it better lol. To Prophet's credit though, its leads are at least pretty well fleshed out.
Anyway, SFF + queer romance is basically my ideal genre, and I'm very much enjoying how I can be spoiled for choice there nowadays.
I'm wondering if something like Megan Whalen Turner's Queen's Thief series would count as "romantasy". That's a series that does romance in a way that's inextricable from the plot, but which is nevertheless not the focus of the books. Like, you don't read that series thinking the whole point of it was the romance. That is, I think, the difficult and fine line to walk, but it's what hits the sweet spot for me: a well-developed, interesting romance that's central to the story, but that isn't actually the point of the story.
posted by yasaman at 8:35 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
Anyway, SFF + queer romance is basically my ideal genre, and I'm very much enjoying how I can be spoiled for choice there nowadays.
I'm wondering if something like Megan Whalen Turner's Queen's Thief series would count as "romantasy". That's a series that does romance in a way that's inextricable from the plot, but which is nevertheless not the focus of the books. Like, you don't read that series thinking the whole point of it was the romance. That is, I think, the difficult and fine line to walk, but it's what hits the sweet spot for me: a well-developed, interesting romance that's central to the story, but that isn't actually the point of the story.
posted by yasaman at 8:35 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
I've been enjoying gay romance novels for a while, and there are some really excellent fantasy novels being written lately. T. J. Klune's The House In The Cerulean Sea is the obvious example, but I prefer his raunchy, hilarious Tales of Verania series, it's brilliant. And I just finished Isabel Murray's Gary Of A Hundred Days, which is so funny it may have given me a brain aneurysm.
I'm glad there's a new subgenre calling attention to romance, because romance novels are awesome. Like Absolutely No You-Know-What above, I really wish these sorts of books had existed when I was a teenager, so I'd have had some happy dreams about gay relationships.
posted by MrVisible at 8:38 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
I'm glad there's a new subgenre calling attention to romance, because romance novels are awesome. Like Absolutely No You-Know-What above, I really wish these sorts of books had existed when I was a teenager, so I'd have had some happy dreams about gay relationships.
posted by MrVisible at 8:38 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
if only Prophet wasn't so clearly Arthur/Eames from Inception fic
I too felt that it was very Inception-y, a thing that the Strange Horizons commenters I linked do not...but then one of them doesn't seem to have read any Inception fic. The funny thing is, I've never seen Inception - several of my favorite fanfic authors wrote a bunch of it and I just read it because they wrote it, so I have a back-formation Inception headcannon derived entirely from fic, and that sustains me.
What is the line between interrogating/investigating fanfic tropes and just sort of replicating them? I am not the world's most refined reader and I can't always tell.
posted by Frowner at 8:44 AM on February 22
I too felt that it was very Inception-y, a thing that the Strange Horizons commenters I linked do not...but then one of them doesn't seem to have read any Inception fic. The funny thing is, I've never seen Inception - several of my favorite fanfic authors wrote a bunch of it and I just read it because they wrote it, so I have a back-formation Inception headcannon derived entirely from fic, and that sustains me.
What is the line between interrogating/investigating fanfic tropes and just sort of replicating them? I am not the world's most refined reader and I can't always tell.
posted by Frowner at 8:44 AM on February 22
Frowner, thanks for that really useful articulation of what doesn't work for you in romantasy - I think I feel the same way about many of the books that I almost really like and then don't quite like as much as I want them to. I like a really good passionate angsty romance plot, but it's rare to find one that really clicks for me in a fantasy novel. I just finished To the Chapel Perilous by Naomi Mitchison, and I was joking that Dalyn and Lienors are my OTP now ("One True Pairing," any fictional couple one feels strongly about), but really, I can't stop thinking about how I felt more strongly about a romance that's not an A-plot or even a B-plot and gets very little in the way of on-page physicality or declarations of love than the romances in most of the fantasy romances I've read. (Maybe the answer is just, Naomi Mitchison is very good at what she does.)
I have Prophet on my shelf thanks to the rapturous praise of a Dreamwidth acquaintance but I haven't started it yet.
posted by Jeanne at 8:48 AM on February 22
I have Prophet on my shelf thanks to the rapturous praise of a Dreamwidth acquaintance but I haven't started it yet.
posted by Jeanne at 8:48 AM on February 22
Robin McKinley!!! Doyenne of satisfying romantic arcs in a fantasy story. Sometimes the romance is more "and they might have a happily ever after or maybe the protagonist will stay with her current lover who is also totally fantastic." Aka Sunshine, my favorite vampire book of all time.
My assumption was that romantasy required the inclusion of explicit sex. Sometimes lots. The historical romance genre is famous for its heaving bosoms on the covers.
Like I love love love Ilona Andrews, especially the Innkeeper series, but I kinda wish there was a PG version that faded to black so I could gift the books to my niblings and not feel weird as hell about it. Hm. I guess they are now in their early teens so really it should be fine. Happily the reissued Hidden Legacy covers are gorgeous colorful objects and no longer nekkid guy + protagonist.
posted by spamandkimchi at 8:49 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
My assumption was that romantasy required the inclusion of explicit sex. Sometimes lots. The historical romance genre is famous for its heaving bosoms on the covers.
Like I love love love Ilona Andrews, especially the Innkeeper series, but I kinda wish there was a PG version that faded to black so I could gift the books to my niblings and not feel weird as hell about it. Hm. I guess they are now in their early teens so really it should be fine. Happily the reissued Hidden Legacy covers are gorgeous colorful objects and no longer nekkid guy + protagonist.
posted by spamandkimchi at 8:49 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
I actually have Prophet on my library list right now because it was recommended as very good fic. I know exactly what y'all mean by it not quite working as a novel, but I read novel-length fic in universes I know nothing about all the time, so.
I've been enjoying gay romance novels for a while, and there are some really excellent fantasy novels being written lately.
I just read Foz Meadows' A Strange and Stubborn Endurance (and sequel) and they're fantastic (although on the drama end, not the comedy.) Really interesting use of secondary worlds (and, to a degree, the magic system) to interrogate queer issues. Goes substantially deeper than the usual "I have to deal with a lot of conflict around my coming out" plot.
My assumption was that romantasy required the inclusion of explicit sex.
I don't think so? Actually I think the trend is for there to be a lot more explicit sex in SF in general. I'm thinking of She Who Became the Sun right offhand, and A Desolation Called Peace (and you wouldn't believe the weird reactions people had to a scene that is one beat past "fade to black" and a couple of brief memories.) Freya Marske's A Marvellous Light and sequels are explicit and also often kinky, in a way that I found really effective at developing the characters. That trilogy could be fairly called romantasy, though - the plot isn't about the relationships, but the relationships are the primary means of character development. Honestly a lot of the newer stuff is willing to be explict (and interesting) about sex.
posted by restless_nomad at 8:55 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
I've been enjoying gay romance novels for a while, and there are some really excellent fantasy novels being written lately.
I just read Foz Meadows' A Strange and Stubborn Endurance (and sequel) and they're fantastic (although on the drama end, not the comedy.) Really interesting use of secondary worlds (and, to a degree, the magic system) to interrogate queer issues. Goes substantially deeper than the usual "I have to deal with a lot of conflict around my coming out" plot.
My assumption was that romantasy required the inclusion of explicit sex.
I don't think so? Actually I think the trend is for there to be a lot more explicit sex in SF in general. I'm thinking of She Who Became the Sun right offhand, and A Desolation Called Peace (and you wouldn't believe the weird reactions people had to a scene that is one beat past "fade to black" and a couple of brief memories.) Freya Marske's A Marvellous Light and sequels are explicit and also often kinky, in a way that I found really effective at developing the characters. That trilogy could be fairly called romantasy, though - the plot isn't about the relationships, but the relationships are the primary means of character development. Honestly a lot of the newer stuff is willing to be explict (and interesting) about sex.
posted by restless_nomad at 8:55 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
I like fanfic tropes and romances, but I like them in a very specific "real people aren't like this, someone who talked like this and angsted like this and obsessed about their romantic feelings like this would be an incredibly miserable person who got on everyone's nerves, not a romantic hero" way.
I think this is actually the opposite of why I like them, hilariously!
One of the things I've started realizing as I age is that actually the world tends to have (at least) two sorts of people in it when it comes to romance, and I think that these types of people really just have a lot of trouble understanding both of each other, and also that they aren't necessarily indicative of the world at large, that the world at large is bifurcated. And I see these two types in romance a lot - kind of what gets stereotyped as 'YA' style romance, where it's these Big Sweeping Feelings, and what gets stereotyped as 'Adult' romance, where everyone is All Very Pragmatic And Practical About Their Feelings. And what I'm realizing is that these aren't really good differentiations - that some people just approach romance differently, and it's not Good or Bad or Young or Old, it's just different.
I'm one of those people for whom the Big Feelings thing has always resonated, and I find kind of Practical Romance plots unrelatable. Like, I like to be in romances with people for whom their romance is the primary focus of their lives; and when I'm in a serious romance, it's the primary focus of my life. It doesn't get on my nerves, I find it incredibly romantic when people are willing to talk about their feelings about their partners to degrees other people would find ad nauseum. So I'm all romantasy all the time - give me soulmates, give me people who will fight and kill and suffer and die for their partner who they have just fallen in love with, because that's what rings true to me.
But I think that sort of romance is kind of out of vogue in other genre media - it's looked at as immature or unrealistic or as a standard for a less enlightened time or what have you. And it's great for Practical Folk, but it's hard on people who actually do kind of live life that way - it means that there's nothing that reflects that in media. And I think that's one of the things that this niche genre is tapping into, is the hunger for that kind of thing - for that kind of relationship focus type.
posted by corb at 9:20 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
I think this is actually the opposite of why I like them, hilariously!
One of the things I've started realizing as I age is that actually the world tends to have (at least) two sorts of people in it when it comes to romance, and I think that these types of people really just have a lot of trouble understanding both of each other, and also that they aren't necessarily indicative of the world at large, that the world at large is bifurcated. And I see these two types in romance a lot - kind of what gets stereotyped as 'YA' style romance, where it's these Big Sweeping Feelings, and what gets stereotyped as 'Adult' romance, where everyone is All Very Pragmatic And Practical About Their Feelings. And what I'm realizing is that these aren't really good differentiations - that some people just approach romance differently, and it's not Good or Bad or Young or Old, it's just different.
I'm one of those people for whom the Big Feelings thing has always resonated, and I find kind of Practical Romance plots unrelatable. Like, I like to be in romances with people for whom their romance is the primary focus of their lives; and when I'm in a serious romance, it's the primary focus of my life. It doesn't get on my nerves, I find it incredibly romantic when people are willing to talk about their feelings about their partners to degrees other people would find ad nauseum. So I'm all romantasy all the time - give me soulmates, give me people who will fight and kill and suffer and die for their partner who they have just fallen in love with, because that's what rings true to me.
But I think that sort of romance is kind of out of vogue in other genre media - it's looked at as immature or unrealistic or as a standard for a less enlightened time or what have you. And it's great for Practical Folk, but it's hard on people who actually do kind of live life that way - it means that there's nothing that reflects that in media. And I think that's one of the things that this niche genre is tapping into, is the hunger for that kind of thing - for that kind of relationship focus type.
posted by corb at 9:20 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
Would Jill Bearup's accidental book "Just Stab Me Now" count in this genre? I've enjoyed the hell out of the shorts that gave birth to the whole book.
I'm definitely of the Tolkien/Anthony/Brooks era of fantasy, but I've been enjoying seeing where things are going (even when/if they're labelled "Young Adult" ala Raybearer/Redemptor or a number of T Kingerfishers) so I'm note taking this thread.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:37 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
I'm definitely of the Tolkien/Anthony/Brooks era of fantasy, but I've been enjoying seeing where things are going (even when/if they're labelled "Young Adult" ala Raybearer/Redemptor or a number of T Kingerfishers) so I'm note taking this thread.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:37 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
So I'm all romantasy all the time - give me soulmates, give me people who will fight and kill and suffer and die for their partner who they have just fallen in love with, because that's what rings true to me.
It's not that, it's the non-stop angst as the primary form of characterization. In fic and fic-adjacent books, I can accept that almost everything I see in someone's head is "I feel bad about myself, but I love Person, could person ever love me, no I cannot love for real, I've had a lot of trauma and it's who I am as a person, Person is so amazing and beautiful and their imperfections are charming", etc. Part of that is because I already have some props for characterization - I know something about the values and mien of the character from the original media.
In other types of narrative, where I don't have that, I find it really hard to care about characters when almost all I see is their intense romantic feelings. It is unrealistic not because intensity is unrealistic but because people also think about politics and work and movies and philosophy and their values about non-relationship things and memories and aesthetics, etc etc and except at very peak mentionitis they don't just think of those things in context of their romantic interest. Without a sense of someone's values and interests, I find it hard to care about their romantic wishes.
Obviously "realism" isn't exactly what I mean, because a "realistic" portrayal of someone's interiority would be a chaotic seething mass, because brains. But there's a sort of metaphorical realism where we get more of that full characterization, and if the book has a full, standalone, non-fic plot, I like to have that full characterization.
Also, if someone is an interesting adult doing Interesting Novel-Worthy Things, they're going to spend long stretches doing and thinking things unrelated to the romance, and I need to see that to believe in them as realistic characters. You may pine a little bit at the beginning of your intense battle with the evil capitalist explode-y drones, or at the start of the touch-and-go experimental surgical procedure you're conducting, or at the beginning of your world-historical testimony before the interstellar space parliament, etc, but as you get into it, you're going to forget the pining and focus on the matter at hand, and I need to see that when I'm not reading fic.
posted by Frowner at 9:49 AM on February 22 [6 favorites]
It's not that, it's the non-stop angst as the primary form of characterization. In fic and fic-adjacent books, I can accept that almost everything I see in someone's head is "I feel bad about myself, but I love Person, could person ever love me, no I cannot love for real, I've had a lot of trauma and it's who I am as a person, Person is so amazing and beautiful and their imperfections are charming", etc. Part of that is because I already have some props for characterization - I know something about the values and mien of the character from the original media.
In other types of narrative, where I don't have that, I find it really hard to care about characters when almost all I see is their intense romantic feelings. It is unrealistic not because intensity is unrealistic but because people also think about politics and work and movies and philosophy and their values about non-relationship things and memories and aesthetics, etc etc and except at very peak mentionitis they don't just think of those things in context of their romantic interest. Without a sense of someone's values and interests, I find it hard to care about their romantic wishes.
Obviously "realism" isn't exactly what I mean, because a "realistic" portrayal of someone's interiority would be a chaotic seething mass, because brains. But there's a sort of metaphorical realism where we get more of that full characterization, and if the book has a full, standalone, non-fic plot, I like to have that full characterization.
Also, if someone is an interesting adult doing Interesting Novel-Worthy Things, they're going to spend long stretches doing and thinking things unrelated to the romance, and I need to see that to believe in them as realistic characters. You may pine a little bit at the beginning of your intense battle with the evil capitalist explode-y drones, or at the start of the touch-and-go experimental surgical procedure you're conducting, or at the beginning of your world-historical testimony before the interstellar space parliament, etc, but as you get into it, you're going to forget the pining and focus on the matter at hand, and I need to see that when I'm not reading fic.
posted by Frowner at 9:49 AM on February 22 [6 favorites]
I read corb as saying she does think about her true love all the time even while!
And I can corroborate, although I am mostly practical, even I cannot look at my work of a certain era without remembering that the whole world was refracted through love. I did good practical production but everything was secretly in honor of my beloved.
posted by clew at 9:53 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
And I can corroborate, although I am mostly practical, even I cannot look at my work of a certain era without remembering that the whole world was refracted through love. I did good practical production but everything was secretly in honor of my beloved.
posted by clew at 9:53 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
I've always been a huge reader of scifi/fantasy romance fanfiction, but I've mostly avoided the novel genre because I find it a lot harder to filter for quality.
Like, I'll be honest, I read A Strange and Stubborn Endurance (mentioned above) because it was being advertised everywhere and was really unimpressed. To me, it read like just your average, mid-tier mildly-enjoyable-but-forgettable fanfiction, and all I could think was..."I could've read something much better for free on Ao3."
This is just a speculation, as I'm not that widely-read here, but it feels like the fanfiction-to-novel pipeline trend is biasing towards bland, more easily marketable writing that fits into tropes in overly predictable ways with formulaic worldbuilding. And especially with queer fiction, there's this obsession with "good representation" and demonstrating "healthy relationships" to the point where all the characters talk as if they're in a therapy circle and the sexuality feels very tame and strangely de-eroticized. I feel like the non-monetary nature of fanfiction still allows it to be weird and horny and philosophical and experimental in ways that get ironed out by market trends in published fiction.
posted by adso at 10:06 AM on February 22 [9 favorites]
Like, I'll be honest, I read A Strange and Stubborn Endurance (mentioned above) because it was being advertised everywhere and was really unimpressed. To me, it read like just your average, mid-tier mildly-enjoyable-but-forgettable fanfiction, and all I could think was..."I could've read something much better for free on Ao3."
This is just a speculation, as I'm not that widely-read here, but it feels like the fanfiction-to-novel pipeline trend is biasing towards bland, more easily marketable writing that fits into tropes in overly predictable ways with formulaic worldbuilding. And especially with queer fiction, there's this obsession with "good representation" and demonstrating "healthy relationships" to the point where all the characters talk as if they're in a therapy circle and the sexuality feels very tame and strangely de-eroticized. I feel like the non-monetary nature of fanfiction still allows it to be weird and horny and philosophical and experimental in ways that get ironed out by market trends in published fiction.
posted by adso at 10:06 AM on February 22 [9 favorites]
(Reader, I married him.)
posted by clew at 10:11 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
posted by clew at 10:11 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
kind of what gets stereotyped as 'YA' style romance, where it's these Big Sweeping Feelings, and what gets stereotyped as 'Adult' romance, where everyone is All Very Pragmatic And Practical About Their Feelings.
That's why the good enemy fic is still the best. You've got the Big Sweeping Feelings but you've Still Got To Win the War (Hopefully Without Having to Kill the Subject of Your Feelings)!
posted by praemunire at 10:12 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
That's why the good enemy fic is still the best. You've got the Big Sweeping Feelings but you've Still Got To Win the War (Hopefully Without Having to Kill the Subject of Your Feelings)!
posted by praemunire at 10:12 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
> is OGLAF “romantasy”?
posted by Artw at 10:13 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:13 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
Re: sex in romance
If you're looking for something specific, romance.io has a book finder, and one of the things you can filter on is spice level, going from innocent, to explicit and plentiful. I've seen recommendations across the entire range.
posted by Spike Glee at 10:20 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
If you're looking for something specific, romance.io has a book finder, and one of the things you can filter on is spice level, going from innocent, to explicit and plentiful. I've seen recommendations across the entire range.
posted by Spike Glee at 10:20 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
When reading romantasy novels, one source of enjoyment for me is assigning numerical proportions of these two genres in them. For instance:
"Half a Soul" by Olivia Atwater: 90% regency romance, 10% fantasy
"The Wisteria Society of Lady Scoundrels" by India Holton: 70% romance, 30% fantasy
"Emily Wilde's Encyclopaedia of Faeries" by Heather Fawcett: 51% romance, 49% fantasy
"Spinning Silver" by Naomi Novak: 25% romance, 75% fantasy
"Fourth Wing" by Rebecca Yarros: 80% romance, 80% fantasy (and yes, my math is correct)
posted by of strange foe at 10:21 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
"Half a Soul" by Olivia Atwater: 90% regency romance, 10% fantasy
"The Wisteria Society of Lady Scoundrels" by India Holton: 70% romance, 30% fantasy
"Emily Wilde's Encyclopaedia of Faeries" by Heather Fawcett: 51% romance, 49% fantasy
"Spinning Silver" by Naomi Novak: 25% romance, 75% fantasy
"Fourth Wing" by Rebecca Yarros: 80% romance, 80% fantasy (and yes, my math is correct)
posted by of strange foe at 10:21 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
is OGLAF “romantasy”?
posted by Artw at 1:13 PM on
I think Oglaf is erotasy.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:21 AM on February 22 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:13 PM on
I think Oglaf is erotasy.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:21 AM on February 22 [6 favorites]
I think Oglaf is horny. Horntasy?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:38 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:38 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
This is just a speculation, as I'm not that widely-read here, but it feels like the fanfiction-to-novel pipeline trend is biasing towards bland, more easily marketable writing that fits into tropes in overly predictable ways with formulaic worldbuilding.
Oh there's for sure plenty of that. And I agree with you in finding A Strange and Stubborn Endurance bland and underwhelming. But there are still some pro writers coming out of fandom who are weird and/or horny: Tamsyn Muir's Locked Tomb trilogy throws a hell of lot of stuff and influences and genres into the pot, and what you get is something that ends up feeling fresh and thrilling, and which is also not at all concerned with or interested in being Good Rep. these lesbian necromancers in space are fucking disasters and that's fun and good and fine; Freya Marske's high-heat romantasies are very horny, while making sure that horniness is always in service to character development.
But fundamentally, fic is always going to Go There in ways professionally published fiction won't/cannot. Fic is, after all, often about play! It's the more detailed version of playing pretend on the playground, or daydreaming! But if you're a pro author, then what gets published is Work, and as mentioned, that's subject to market pressures, editing, the publisher, etc. Of course they're gonna be different! Part of what I find fascinating about the fanfiction-to-novel pipeline is in fact in teasing out those differences, in figuring out what does and doesn't work, what makes something succeed enormously as a fic but fall flat as a novel, and vice versa. It helps me zero in on what I'm actually looking for: namely, an interesting and fleshed out plot and world + emotional intensity in the characters' relationships with each other. It's when the balance is wildly askew that you get the clunkers: an SFF novel with great ideas and a cool plot but stultifying and boring characters, or a romance novel with an obnoxious central romance and a far more interesting plot/worldbuilding struggling to breathe in what room is left over.
In general, I think romantasy is an attempt to dial up the emotional intensity in ways that readers like me find satisfying, and in ways that are definitely super common in fanfiction, while having more interesting plots/worldbuilding than the average romance novel can squeeze in while still sticking to the genre's formula. That's not a knock on romance novels by the way, just an acknowledgment that the genre has its own requirements. There's a fairly rigid structure most romances need to fit into, and there's only so much plot you can squeeze into that structure without shortchanging the other aspects that romance readers are actually there for. Romantasy seems like it has a lot more room to deviate, and just for that, I hope the genre booms.
posted by yasaman at 10:47 AM on February 22 [9 favorites]
Oh there's for sure plenty of that. And I agree with you in finding A Strange and Stubborn Endurance bland and underwhelming. But there are still some pro writers coming out of fandom who are weird and/or horny: Tamsyn Muir's Locked Tomb trilogy throws a hell of lot of stuff and influences and genres into the pot, and what you get is something that ends up feeling fresh and thrilling, and which is also not at all concerned with or interested in being Good Rep. these lesbian necromancers in space are fucking disasters and that's fun and good and fine; Freya Marske's high-heat romantasies are very horny, while making sure that horniness is always in service to character development.
But fundamentally, fic is always going to Go There in ways professionally published fiction won't/cannot. Fic is, after all, often about play! It's the more detailed version of playing pretend on the playground, or daydreaming! But if you're a pro author, then what gets published is Work, and as mentioned, that's subject to market pressures, editing, the publisher, etc. Of course they're gonna be different! Part of what I find fascinating about the fanfiction-to-novel pipeline is in fact in teasing out those differences, in figuring out what does and doesn't work, what makes something succeed enormously as a fic but fall flat as a novel, and vice versa. It helps me zero in on what I'm actually looking for: namely, an interesting and fleshed out plot and world + emotional intensity in the characters' relationships with each other. It's when the balance is wildly askew that you get the clunkers: an SFF novel with great ideas and a cool plot but stultifying and boring characters, or a romance novel with an obnoxious central romance and a far more interesting plot/worldbuilding struggling to breathe in what room is left over.
In general, I think romantasy is an attempt to dial up the emotional intensity in ways that readers like me find satisfying, and in ways that are definitely super common in fanfiction, while having more interesting plots/worldbuilding than the average romance novel can squeeze in while still sticking to the genre's formula. That's not a knock on romance novels by the way, just an acknowledgment that the genre has its own requirements. There's a fairly rigid structure most romances need to fit into, and there's only so much plot you can squeeze into that structure without shortchanging the other aspects that romance readers are actually there for. Romantasy seems like it has a lot more room to deviate, and just for that, I hope the genre booms.
posted by yasaman at 10:47 AM on February 22 [9 favorites]
What is the line between interrogating/investigating fanfic tropes and just sort of replicating them? I am not the world's most refined reader and I can't always tell.
Hmm, personally I would put it as the difference between "filing the serial numbers off", i.e., taking an existing fic and adapting it to be a standalone story, versus taking the tools and experiences of fic writing, or as you say interrogating/investigating fanfic tropes, to write something new. I would call Prophet a novel that's just fic with the serial numbers filed off. But I wouldn't call Naomi Novik's Temeraire series "Master & Commander dragon AU with the serial numbers filed off", those books end up doing much more than just "Master & Commander with dragons" and their focus isn't in the same place a fic's focus would be. But like, you can definitely still see how the series might have started with a fanfiction idea.
posted by yasaman at 11:02 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
Hmm, personally I would put it as the difference between "filing the serial numbers off", i.e., taking an existing fic and adapting it to be a standalone story, versus taking the tools and experiences of fic writing, or as you say interrogating/investigating fanfic tropes, to write something new. I would call Prophet a novel that's just fic with the serial numbers filed off. But I wouldn't call Naomi Novik's Temeraire series "Master & Commander dragon AU with the serial numbers filed off", those books end up doing much more than just "Master & Commander with dragons" and their focus isn't in the same place a fic's focus would be. But like, you can definitely still see how the series might have started with a fanfiction idea.
posted by yasaman at 11:02 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
Has someone made a clever portmanteau for RomanceSF?“Sigh-Fi”?
posted by mbrubeck at 11:02 AM on February 22 [9 favorites]
There you have the whole spectrum of the genre, hot tomild, from Science Friction to Sigh Fi
posted by Zumbador at 11:09 AM on February 22 [11 favorites]
posted by Zumbador at 11:09 AM on February 22 [11 favorites]
Example of big R romance in Science Fiction is the Paradox series by Rachel Bach, Fortunes Pawn, Honors Knight and Heaven's Queen although it's debatable whether the main love interest is the dark and broody mystery soldier, or the main character's mech suit.
posted by Zumbador at 11:14 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
posted by Zumbador at 11:14 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
As a book editor who mostly edits romance, I'm really enjoying this thread. Good on you, folks who're finding books you like! Good on you, folks who're trying a new subgenre!
I've edited some romantasy, and a lot of "paranormal romantic suspense" that might be labeled romantasy if it was being published right now. The labels are less important to me because I only edit them; I don't have to try to market them.
Overall, though: more readers reading romance is a good thing.
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:20 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
I've edited some romantasy, and a lot of "paranormal romantic suspense" that might be labeled romantasy if it was being published right now. The labels are less important to me because I only edit them; I don't have to try to market them.
Overall, though: more readers reading romance is a good thing.
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:20 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
Speaking of SF with a healthy helping of romance, I'll definitely count in Lois McMaster Bujold's "Komarr" + "A Civil Campaign", and Doris Egan's (under-discussed) Ivory trilogy.
posted by of strange foe at 12:29 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
posted by of strange foe at 12:29 PM on February 22 [4 favorites]
Have we forgotten the romantic-supernatural-fantasy, apparently referred to by the publishing industry as ‘grave throbbers’
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 12:52 PM on February 22 [8 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 12:52 PM on February 22 [8 favorites]
Supernatural romances go way back! I think they fit with romantacy, what with the psychics and witches and werewolves and vampires. True Blood, y'all! 🐺🧛🩸💃🏼
posted by fiercekitten at 1:26 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
posted by fiercekitten at 1:26 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
A crossover with the post on the blue of the passing of Steve Miller, who, with their partner in all things Sharon Lee, wrote the truly fantastic Liaden Universe® novels: [which] have twice won the Prism Award for Best Futuristic Romance, reader and editor choice awards from Romantic Times.
I have work to do so I will NOT look up the winners to date for best futuristic romance but oh I am tempted.
posted by spamandkimchi at 1:37 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
I have work to do so I will NOT look up the winners to date for best futuristic romance but oh I am tempted.
posted by spamandkimchi at 1:37 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
I just finished To the Chapel Perilous by Naomi Mitchison, and I was joking that Dalyn and Lienors are my OTP now
I was going to respond to this and forgot, but Naomi Mitchison is one of my favorite novelists! I really love Memoirs of A Spacewoman, in particular, but haven't read To The Chapel Perilous, which I am off to track down now. She was such an interesting person and was always approaching things from fascinating original angles. She's definitely someone I wish I could have known.
posted by Frowner at 3:15 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I was going to respond to this and forgot, but Naomi Mitchison is one of my favorite novelists! I really love Memoirs of A Spacewoman, in particular, but haven't read To The Chapel Perilous, which I am off to track down now. She was such an interesting person and was always approaching things from fascinating original angles. She's definitely someone I wish I could have known.
posted by Frowner at 3:15 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
There was a sub-genere of female paranormal investigator (Sookie, the Hollows, Anita Blake, Dante Valentine, and many more). I'm not sure that I'd call them paranormal romance, but they were fantasy reaching for romance and showing that there was a market there.
posted by Spike Glee at 4:10 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
posted by Spike Glee at 4:10 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I've read a lot of the books here, so relevant to my interests. Reading Twelve Houses right now, actually.
a romance between a sec-unit and a giant spaceship,
Hm, I dunno, they always give me Vitriolic Best Friends vibe more than romantic?
I'm still trying to figure out how the werecheese don't get eaten during the day.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:04 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
a romance between a sec-unit and a giant spaceship,
Hm, I dunno, they always give me Vitriolic Best Friends vibe more than romantic?
I'm still trying to figure out how the werecheese don't get eaten during the day.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:04 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
> a romance between a sec-unit and a giant spaceship,
> Hm, I dunno, they always give me Vitriolic Best Friends vibe more than romantic?
The sec unit was sublimating. Anything else would have meant acknowledging Feelings.
I too hail from the 70s, and fantasy (and science fiction) never had enough romance for me, though I loved most of what I read. For me, Anne McCaffrey was almost as formative as Tolkien.
The closest I have come to it in my reading lately is the Locked Tomb books. I was attracted to the very idea of lesbian necromancers in space (I mean, how can you not?), and while I can't say I completely followed it, it's some of the most original and enjoyable confusion I've been through in a long time.
posted by lhauser at 5:34 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
> Hm, I dunno, they always give me Vitriolic Best Friends vibe more than romantic?
The sec unit was sublimating. Anything else would have meant acknowledging Feelings.
I too hail from the 70s, and fantasy (and science fiction) never had enough romance for me, though I loved most of what I read. For me, Anne McCaffrey was almost as formative as Tolkien.
The closest I have come to it in my reading lately is the Locked Tomb books. I was attracted to the very idea of lesbian necromancers in space (I mean, how can you not?), and while I can't say I completely followed it, it's some of the most original and enjoyable confusion I've been through in a long time.
posted by lhauser at 5:34 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
For romance/scifi, I highly reccomend The Terraformers by Annalee Newitz, as long as you're turned on by hot action between uplifted cats and flying buses, but who isn't?
posted by signal at 6:35 PM on February 22 [5 favorites]
posted by signal at 6:35 PM on February 22 [5 favorites]
I'm still trying to figure out how the werecheese don't get eaten during the day.
I expect it's werewolf milk cheese, and please note that when I say werewolf milk I mean that in the direct and literal and sense and not in any kind of "when my werewolf boyfriend..." sense.
I expect dog-ish milk cheese probably isn't the tastiest to most people given their diet.
Oh. Fuck. I just realized that werewolves probably eat poop. Imagine a gigantic werewolf, all claws and teeth and snarls, busting into yer house and shoving you off the toilet so it can get at your fresh dookies. Or a werewolf breaking the chains that keep it in the basement only so that it can go eat butthole-fresh horseshit.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:55 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I expect it's werewolf milk cheese, and please note that when I say werewolf milk I mean that in the direct and literal and sense and not in any kind of "when my werewolf boyfriend..." sense.
I expect dog-ish milk cheese probably isn't the tastiest to most people given their diet.
Oh. Fuck. I just realized that werewolves probably eat poop. Imagine a gigantic werewolf, all claws and teeth and snarls, busting into yer house and shoving you off the toilet so it can get at your fresh dookies. Or a werewolf breaking the chains that keep it in the basement only so that it can go eat butthole-fresh horseshit.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:55 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
Sometimes a romance is watching lots and lots of television.
posted by Artw at 11:00 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:00 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
lesbian necromancers in space
Ahem, lesbian SWORD necromancers in space.
posted by Artw at 11:02 PM on February 22 [3 favorites]
Ahem, lesbian SWORD necromancers in space.
posted by Artw at 11:02 PM on February 22 [3 favorites]
To be honest, when I saw cheese shifters I thought it would be enemies-to-lovers in the corporate world of Who Moved My Cheese
posted by Sparx at 5:05 AM on February 23 [2 favorites]
posted by Sparx at 5:05 AM on February 23 [2 favorites]
Checking SCP to see if anyone has written anything on the weird hellworld posited by Who Moved My Cheese.
posted by Artw at 10:02 AM on February 23 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 10:02 AM on February 23 [1 favorite]
It occurs to me that some but not all of this would be a less pejorative Squeecore .
posted by Artw at 10:24 AM on February 23
posted by Artw at 10:24 AM on February 23
Just parachuting in to fervently recommend Everina Maxwell's Winter's Orbit to all enjoyers of this genre.
posted by rdc at 12:14 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
posted by rdc at 12:14 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
I can't really pinpoint where it started for me as a cis male fantasy/SF reader, but certainly by the time I had a bit of a dry spell of worthy (TM) books and decided to give Patricia Briggs' Mercy Thompson series a go (there are a lot of them) I was irrevocably hooked on paranormal romance and 'romantasy'. Swordheart and the White Rat books are in there too, and very quickly my world has been opened right up to all sorts of really wonderful books that I just want to list and list and list here! Freya Marske's The Last Binding trilogy, K Arsenault Rivera's bleak and beautiful The Tiger's Daughter and sequels (sooooo much yearning)... And I could go on.
But I realised something reading this thread - so much of the classic, multi-novel sword and sorcery business I read as a baby geek is still full of romantic tropes: The Wheel of Time is full of them, or any given David Eddings series. What kept me from recognising it is unexamined, systemic, internalised misogyny.
Now, there's a new T Kingfisher I have to read, so shush.
posted by prismatic7 at 12:10 AM on February 24 [3 favorites]
But I realised something reading this thread - so much of the classic, multi-novel sword and sorcery business I read as a baby geek is still full of romantic tropes: The Wheel of Time is full of them, or any given David Eddings series. What kept me from recognising it is unexamined, systemic, internalised misogyny.
Now, there's a new T Kingfisher I have to read, so shush.
posted by prismatic7 at 12:10 AM on February 24 [3 favorites]
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posted by cupcakeninja at 4:59 AM on February 22