“They’re noticeably different, except for a few”
February 22, 2024 5:07 AM Subscribe
Meanwhile, Rybak and Hearn say that prospective buyers regularly call or email asking for guidance in authenticating this or that painting, worried they may have sunk large sums of money on worthless imitations. Some buyers were bilked out of their life savings. For the fraudsters, of course, the scheme was nothing more than a way to make money. But the devastation to honest buyers, to Morrisseau and his legacy, to Indigenous culture, and to Canadian art writ large is incalculable. Morrisseau’s works were not meaningless paintings but precious, irreplaceable examples of the Anishinaabe experience in Canada and the world. from Inside the Biggest Art Fraud in History [Smithsonian]
The documentary mentioned in the article is available for free on youtube, and for rent on Amazon Prime and Apple+.
posted by OrangeDisk at 6:09 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
posted by OrangeDisk at 6:09 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
I just want to take a moment and note that if you ever have the opportunity to see a (real) Morrisseau in person, you should take it. Photos just don't capture the vividness of seeing those colours up close.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:56 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 6:56 AM on February 22 [8 favorites]
“Why am I alive?” he once said. “To heal you guys who’re more screwed up than I am. How can I heal you? With color.”
I love this.
However, Morrisseau creating "quasi-fakes," geeeez.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:13 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
I love this.
However, Morrisseau creating "quasi-fakes," geeeez.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:13 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
I just want to take a moment and note that if you ever have the opportunity to see a (real) Morrisseau in person, you should take it. Photos just don't capture the vividness of seeing those colours up close.
Thanks for telling us this. I feel the same way about the light in Lawren Harris' paintings. An ex once gave me a nice framed print of my favourite Lawren Harris painting and on the one hand it was such a thoughtful gift, and on the other hand, if I'd wanted a print I would have bought one myself. The print kind of sucks. I mean it's a professional-quality print, but it's no Lawren Harris original. If he'd really been thoughtful he'd've heisted the museum. Anyway, now I will make a point of checking these out next time I'm in the AGO.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:35 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
Thanks for telling us this. I feel the same way about the light in Lawren Harris' paintings. An ex once gave me a nice framed print of my favourite Lawren Harris painting and on the one hand it was such a thoughtful gift, and on the other hand, if I'd wanted a print I would have bought one myself. The print kind of sucks. I mean it's a professional-quality print, but it's no Lawren Harris original. If he'd really been thoughtful he'd've heisted the museum. Anyway, now I will make a point of checking these out next time I'm in the AGO.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:35 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
However, Morrisseau creating "quasi-fakes," geeeez.
I've heard of other artists doing these. Salvador Dali would sign his signature over and over again on blank sheets of paper so that forgers could use them. Dali would make money for doing this, but I think he also just did it because he liked fomenting chaos. At least Morrisseau was dealing with addiction and poverty when he put his signature on forgeries. Dali didn't have that excuse.
posted by jonp72 at 8:13 AM on February 22 [9 favorites]
I've heard of other artists doing these. Salvador Dali would sign his signature over and over again on blank sheets of paper so that forgers could use them. Dali would make money for doing this, but I think he also just did it because he liked fomenting chaos. At least Morrisseau was dealing with addiction and poverty when he put his signature on forgeries. Dali didn't have that excuse.
posted by jonp72 at 8:13 AM on February 22 [9 favorites]
Thunder Bay cops are good for something, wild. Fascinating story, thanks for sharing it!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:17 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:17 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
Not the point at all, but the description of the RCMP as the equivalent of the FBI is kind of funny. Functionally, in this case, it's reasonably true (though Quebec might, as usual, disagree), but also the RCMP is mostly small town cops.
posted by ssg at 9:00 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
posted by ssg at 9:00 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
I feel the same way about the light in Lawren Harris' paintings.
It's funny, I can see exactly what you mean about how they are the same, even though the experiences are completely different to me. I love Lawren Harris more than any other group of 7 painter because you can just fall into the light in his paintings and I find them intensely soothing, and Morrisseau's acrylics are almost a physical assault on your senses and the opposite of soothing. But both really command your attention if you see them in person.
It might be somewhat convenient that this conversation is happening on late opening / free entry night for the National Gallery. Maybe I need to stop in on the way.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:08 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
It's funny, I can see exactly what you mean about how they are the same, even though the experiences are completely different to me. I love Lawren Harris more than any other group of 7 painter because you can just fall into the light in his paintings and I find them intensely soothing, and Morrisseau's acrylics are almost a physical assault on your senses and the opposite of soothing. But both really command your attention if you see them in person.
It might be somewhat convenient that this conversation is happening on late opening / free entry night for the National Gallery. Maybe I need to stop in on the way.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:08 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
Not the point at all, but the description of the RCMP as the equivalent of the FBI is kind of funny. Functionally, in this case, it's reasonably true (though Quebec might, as usual, disagree), but also the RCMP is mostly small town cops.
I think this is because in addition to being the federal police in most provinces* they also serve as the provincial police and since most dinky towns won't have their own police force, the RCMP are basically the cops for those towns.
*I was taught it was all provinces except Ontario and Quebec, but I know Newfoundland also has the Newfoundland Constabulary -- but then again, in "Aunt Martha's Sheep" Aunt Martha telegrams the RCMP not the constabulary so I'm not sure. Incidentally, my favourite thing about "Aunt Martha's Sheep" is that when she sends a telegram to the RCMP she signs it "Aunt Martha".
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:09 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
I think this is because in addition to being the federal police in most provinces* they also serve as the provincial police and since most dinky towns won't have their own police force, the RCMP are basically the cops for those towns.
*I was taught it was all provinces except Ontario and Quebec, but I know Newfoundland also has the Newfoundland Constabulary -- but then again, in "Aunt Martha's Sheep" Aunt Martha telegrams the RCMP not the constabulary so I'm not sure. Incidentally, my favourite thing about "Aunt Martha's Sheep" is that when she sends a telegram to the RCMP she signs it "Aunt Martha".
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:09 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
Anyone else feel a strong urge to punch that "president of a Toronto auction house" in the mouth? Name him! (Not so I can punch him in the mouth; I don't actually do that. But so he can be shamed for such brutal stereotyping.)
posted by praemunire at 9:31 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 9:31 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
OK, I finished reading the article now..This is beyond crazy, but I'm left with four questions:
1. I feel like lots of forgeries are uncovered by curators doing chemistry magic or brush stroke analysis or who knows what that doesn't necessarily require tracing the provenance of a painting or records kept by the artist. I don't understand why that can't be used here.
2. And at the risk of sounding like one of those "my kid could paint that" people...Shouldn't the original/real paintings just be noticeable BETTER than the fakes? Shouldn't the fakes have been hard to sell because they just weren't that good? If a bunch of random teens were just trying to copy this style, surely they're not that great. Like if a bunch of random cops can study up and see the difference surely art collectors and gallery owners can see the difference instantly?
3. WHy is the Smithosonian listing their own painting as "disputed" when it's signed with the signature the article says he never ever signed his paintings with?
4. Not that it helps him now that he's dead, but will the criminal investigation and charges result in anything going to his estate or wherever one might infer he might want it donated?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:37 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
1. I feel like lots of forgeries are uncovered by curators doing chemistry magic or brush stroke analysis or who knows what that doesn't necessarily require tracing the provenance of a painting or records kept by the artist. I don't understand why that can't be used here.
2. And at the risk of sounding like one of those "my kid could paint that" people...Shouldn't the original/real paintings just be noticeable BETTER than the fakes? Shouldn't the fakes have been hard to sell because they just weren't that good? If a bunch of random teens were just trying to copy this style, surely they're not that great. Like if a bunch of random cops can study up and see the difference surely art collectors and gallery owners can see the difference instantly?
3. WHy is the Smithosonian listing their own painting as "disputed" when it's signed with the signature the article says he never ever signed his paintings with?
4. Not that it helps him now that he's dead, but will the criminal investigation and charges result in anything going to his estate or wherever one might infer he might want it donated?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:37 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
2. And at the risk of sounding like one of those "my kid could paint that" people...Shouldn't the original/real paintings just be noticeable BETTER than the fakes? Shouldn't the fakes have been hard to sell because they just weren't that good? If a bunch of random teens were just trying to copy this style, surely they're not that great. Like if a bunch of random cops can study up and see the difference surely art collectors and gallery owners can see the difference instantly?
Wishful thinking is already strong enough by itself. Think of how powerful it can be when there's a financial motive to be wishful. You don't even have to be deliberately fraudulent, because the capacity to delude ourselves is bottomless.
posted by jonp72 at 9:41 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
Wishful thinking is already strong enough by itself. Think of how powerful it can be when there's a financial motive to be wishful. You don't even have to be deliberately fraudulent, because the capacity to delude ourselves is bottomless.
posted by jonp72 at 9:41 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
And at the risk of sounding like one of those "my kid could paint that" people...Shouldn't the original/real paintings just be noticeable BETTER than the fakes? Shouldn't the fakes have been hard to sell because they just weren't that good? If a bunch of random teens were just trying to copy this style, surely they're not that great. Like if a bunch of random cops can study up and see the difference surely art collectors and gallery owners can see the difference instantly?
One element the article does mention is that some of the fakes don't properly reflect the myths and cultural concepts they are supposed to embody, but when you've got a bunch of white art experts doing the validating, they probably aren't going to be able to tell you that the painting mashes together two indigenous origin stories in a way that doesn't make sense.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:04 AM on February 22 [11 favorites]
One element the article does mention is that some of the fakes don't properly reflect the myths and cultural concepts they are supposed to embody, but when you've got a bunch of white art experts doing the validating, they probably aren't going to be able to tell you that the painting mashes together two indigenous origin stories in a way that doesn't make sense.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:04 AM on February 22 [11 favorites]
1. I feel like lots of forgeries are uncovered by curators doing chemistry magic or brush stroke analysis or who knows what that doesn't necessarily require tracing the provenance of a painting or records kept by the artist. I don't understand why that can't be used here.
Forensic analysis of historical paintings often relies on discovering anachronisms- a pigment that didn’t exist or a font that wasn’t used at the time of purported creation. It sounds like the Morrisseau fakes are largely contemporary forgeries using identical materials, so only glaring stuff like incorrect signatures or postmortem dates really stands out.
posted by zamboni at 10:07 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
Forensic analysis of historical paintings often relies on discovering anachronisms- a pigment that didn’t exist or a font that wasn’t used at the time of purported creation. It sounds like the Morrisseau fakes are largely contemporary forgeries using identical materials, so only glaring stuff like incorrect signatures or postmortem dates really stands out.
posted by zamboni at 10:07 AM on February 22 [7 favorites]
Shouldn't the original/real paintings just be noticeable BETTER than the fakes? Shouldn't the fakes have been hard to sell because they just weren't that good?
That would apply to every art forgery (from an artist with other known works) in history. The largest sum ever paid for a painting in modern history was for a piece from an extremely well-known artist that is almost certainly a fake.
posted by praemunire at 10:07 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
That would apply to every art forgery (from an artist with other known works) in history. The largest sum ever paid for a painting in modern history was for a piece from an extremely well-known artist that is almost certainly a fake.
posted by praemunire at 10:07 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
That would apply to every art forgery (from an artist with other known works) in history. The largest sum ever paid for a painting in modern history was for a piece from an extremely well-known artist that is almost certainly a fake.
I guess I thought those other historical forgeries were made by professional counterfeiters who were themselves skilled artists and put a lot of time and effort into studying the victim-artist's work and practice to work at replicating the artist's brushstrokes/style/method. And because of all that work they only produce a relatively small number of forgeries. This was just a bunch of teenagers held hostage and told "paint stuff that looks kind of like this." and they (and then the offshoot rings) produced thousands. It seems like a different thing. It seems like it should be noticeably not as good.
I am not an art-knowledgeable person at all. I assumed that when I went to Florence I would think the art was nice and pretty, but that not being art-knowledgeable I would not fully appreciate it. I'm sure I didn't appreciate it as fully as a person who is more knowledgeable, but it was instantly obvious to me that many of those works were on a whole other level than anything I'd seen before. Now who knows, maybe it's the atmosphere and the lighting and the fancy frames that influenced my perception, I guess that's definitely possible. But it sure seems like a person who lives and breathes art should be able to distinguish between something done by a talented and skilled artist and something thrown together by some kids in a basement.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:30 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
I guess I thought those other historical forgeries were made by professional counterfeiters who were themselves skilled artists and put a lot of time and effort into studying the victim-artist's work and practice to work at replicating the artist's brushstrokes/style/method. And because of all that work they only produce a relatively small number of forgeries. This was just a bunch of teenagers held hostage and told "paint stuff that looks kind of like this." and they (and then the offshoot rings) produced thousands. It seems like a different thing. It seems like it should be noticeably not as good.
I am not an art-knowledgeable person at all. I assumed that when I went to Florence I would think the art was nice and pretty, but that not being art-knowledgeable I would not fully appreciate it. I'm sure I didn't appreciate it as fully as a person who is more knowledgeable, but it was instantly obvious to me that many of those works were on a whole other level than anything I'd seen before. Now who knows, maybe it's the atmosphere and the lighting and the fancy frames that influenced my perception, I guess that's definitely possible. But it sure seems like a person who lives and breathes art should be able to distinguish between something done by a talented and skilled artist and something thrown together by some kids in a basement.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:30 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
Like I'd be really curious to have jacquilynne go see that Smithsonian fake and let us know if her senses are assaulted by it.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:31 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:31 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
It sounds like the Morrisseau fakes are largely contemporary forgeries using identical materials, so only glaring stuff like incorrect signatures or postmortem dates really stands out.
I read "Faking It" by Jennifer Crusie, which features a family of art forgers, and yes, contemporary forging at the time was the big thing in the book. They had a ton of forgeries hidden in the basement done around the same time as the paintings and didn't know what to do about them.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:36 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
I read "Faking It" by Jennifer Crusie, which features a family of art forgers, and yes, contemporary forging at the time was the big thing in the book. They had a ton of forgeries hidden in the basement done around the same time as the paintings and didn't know what to do about them.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:36 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
3. WHy is the Smithosonian listing their own painting as "disputed" when it's signed with the signature the article says he never ever signed his paintings with?
I'm going to guess here: Admitting that it's a fake means admitting that they were snookered, and possible paid money to gangsters. Also if they leave themselves wiggle room of doubt about its authenticity, they could potentially dodge further lawsuits from the artist's estate.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:38 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
I'm going to guess here: Admitting that it's a fake means admitting that they were snookered, and possible paid money to gangsters. Also if they leave themselves wiggle room of doubt about its authenticity, they could potentially dodge further lawsuits from the artist's estate.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:38 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
The documentary mentioned in the article is available for free on youtube yt ,
not up here in Canada. But here's a piece of it, and be warned, not easy viewing ...
Norval Morrisseau - Drinking During Filming, National Film Board of Canada 1974
posted by philip-random at 10:50 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
not up here in Canada. But here's a piece of it, and be warned, not easy viewing ...
Norval Morrisseau - Drinking During Filming, National Film Board of Canada 1974
posted by philip-random at 10:50 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
those other historical forgeries were made by professional counterfeiters who were themselves skilled artists and put a lot of time and effort into studying the victim-artist's work and practice to work at replicating the artist's brushstrokes/style/method.
That's the romanticized version, and in some cases, it's accurate. In other cases, you've got veritable factories.
posted by praemunire at 11:01 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
That's the romanticized version, and in some cases, it's accurate. In other cases, you've got veritable factories.
posted by praemunire at 11:01 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
I remember encountering the story of Pei-Shen Qian quite a few years ago. Here's a Guardian article from the time, Artist at centre of multimillion dollar forgery scandal turns up in China, about his fleeing the country. There's a documentary about him, if you're into that kind of thing: Made You Look- A True Story About Fake Art (2020) [DailyMotion]
posted by hippybear at 11:07 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 11:07 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
The documentary mentioned in the article is available for free on youtube yt ,
not up here in Canada. But here's a piece of it, and be warned, not easy viewing ...
All NFB films are available for free on the NFB website, Here is the Norval Morriseau filk. (So glad to contribute something other than naive questions...sorry for all the naive questions)
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:08 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]
it sure seems like a person who lives and breathes art should be able to distinguish between something done by a talented and skilled artist and something thrown together by some kids in a basement
The other thing to keep in mind is...well. Many people bought these works out of sincere admiration for the artist. Many others doubtless did so to have something that "looked Native" (for lack of a better way of phrasing it) on their walls, and didn't scrutinize theirs too hard. I wouldn't be surprised if a forgery by a white person could look more "Native" to white eyes than an original!
The other other thing to keep in mind is that the forgeries are not necessarily, inherently, bad paintings, as art (as opposed to examples of Anishinaabe culture). If there was a "school of Morrisseau," there's no reason those painters couldn't produce fine paintings. Originality is not the sine qua non here. Additionally, some artists are known for extreme technical sophistication; others, for skillfully portraying something worth looking at through relatively simple technical means. In the old days, people might have told you that the former is inherently better, but now we recognize that it's more a matter of whether the artist successfully chooses an approach that conveys their vision rather than how technically challenging the chosen approach is. I think it would be easier to fake a Morrisseau than a Vermeer simply in terms of getting paint on canvas in a way that vaguely resembles the artist's manner of working. It would be equally difficult to reproduce the artist's vision for either, but that's the subjective part.
posted by praemunire at 11:13 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
The other thing to keep in mind is...well. Many people bought these works out of sincere admiration for the artist. Many others doubtless did so to have something that "looked Native" (for lack of a better way of phrasing it) on their walls, and didn't scrutinize theirs too hard. I wouldn't be surprised if a forgery by a white person could look more "Native" to white eyes than an original!
The other other thing to keep in mind is that the forgeries are not necessarily, inherently, bad paintings, as art (as opposed to examples of Anishinaabe culture). If there was a "school of Morrisseau," there's no reason those painters couldn't produce fine paintings. Originality is not the sine qua non here. Additionally, some artists are known for extreme technical sophistication; others, for skillfully portraying something worth looking at through relatively simple technical means. In the old days, people might have told you that the former is inherently better, but now we recognize that it's more a matter of whether the artist successfully chooses an approach that conveys their vision rather than how technically challenging the chosen approach is. I think it would be easier to fake a Morrisseau than a Vermeer simply in terms of getting paint on canvas in a way that vaguely resembles the artist's manner of working. It would be equally difficult to reproduce the artist's vision for either, but that's the subjective part.
posted by praemunire at 11:13 AM on February 22 [5 favorites]
(To give you an example, while I'm not a Morrisseau expert, he seems to work primarily in a flat plane. So he doesn't need to worry about traditional problems of composing perspective, which can be very hard for a naive visual artist to overcome. That does not detract from the overall value of his work, but it does make it easier to produce something vaguely "in his style" than of anyone who uses a post-Renaissance approach to perspective.)
posted by praemunire at 11:15 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 11:15 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
The part of this story that fascinates me is the Dallas Thompson quote - the Anishnaabe man looking at what the paintings represent from their cultural perspective and saying simply "the paintings don’t make sense."
I would gladly listen to that guy talk for two hours to take a deep dive into what he's seeing and what it means.
posted by mhoye at 11:23 AM on February 22 [10 favorites]
I would gladly listen to that guy talk for two hours to take a deep dive into what he's seeing and what it means.
posted by mhoye at 11:23 AM on February 22 [10 favorites]
> Shouldn't the original/real paintings just be noticeable BETTER than the fakes?
Part of the issue and the problem is that in the art world, the lion's share of the value of a work of art is in the reputation of, and the work's association, with a recognized "master".
"Recognized" in this case meaning, an artist whose other works sell for a lot of money.
So you could have two works that are literally identical in quality, subject, etc etc etc, but if one is by a famous artist its value will be many, many thousands of times higher.
To a degree it is understandable why this is - a student work of, say, Cezanne may not be a great work of art per se but it is of great interest in what it says about Cezanne's life and other works.
But this very fact - plus the fact that many, many millions and billions of dollars are sloshing around in the market - leaves the art market wide open to all sorts of scams and forgeries. It's the sort of thing that naturally tends to happen when a small "technicality" has the potential to increase or decrease the value of something many-fold.
And BTW one reason so much money is sloshing around the art marketplace is that the multi-millionaire-to-billionaire set see fine art as a fine way to display and showcase their wealth.
Once you've got that kind of financial pressure on the marketplace it is almost inevitable that it breaks down in predictable ways.
posted by flug at 1:38 PM on February 22 [6 favorites]
Part of the issue and the problem is that in the art world, the lion's share of the value of a work of art is in the reputation of, and the work's association, with a recognized "master".
"Recognized" in this case meaning, an artist whose other works sell for a lot of money.
So you could have two works that are literally identical in quality, subject, etc etc etc, but if one is by a famous artist its value will be many, many thousands of times higher.
To a degree it is understandable why this is - a student work of, say, Cezanne may not be a great work of art per se but it is of great interest in what it says about Cezanne's life and other works.
But this very fact - plus the fact that many, many millions and billions of dollars are sloshing around in the market - leaves the art market wide open to all sorts of scams and forgeries. It's the sort of thing that naturally tends to happen when a small "technicality" has the potential to increase or decrease the value of something many-fold.
And BTW one reason so much money is sloshing around the art marketplace is that the multi-millionaire-to-billionaire set see fine art as a fine way to display and showcase their wealth.
Once you've got that kind of financial pressure on the marketplace it is almost inevitable that it breaks down in predictable ways.
posted by flug at 1:38 PM on February 22 [6 favorites]
If you're looking for a link to the doc "There Are No Fakes" that can be viewed in Canada, there you go.
posted by kneecapped at 1:52 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
posted by kneecapped at 1:52 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
There's a documentary about him, if you're into that kind of thing: Made You Look- A True Story About Fake Art (2020)
Just watched this, so I am sort of on a kick about this topic- thanks for posting.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 2:45 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
Just watched this, so I am sort of on a kick about this topic- thanks for posting.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 2:45 PM on February 22 [2 favorites]
Shouldn't the original/real paintings just be noticeable BETTER than the fakes
The art isn't in the product, it's in the act. An original canvas is what gets you close to the act*, like being at a performance there gets you closer to your favourite band than listening to a digitally remastered imitation (which may sound "better") on Spotify.
* Why that's important for collectors, I have no idea.
posted by klanawa at 11:13 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
The art isn't in the product, it's in the act. An original canvas is what gets you close to the act*, like being at a performance there gets you closer to your favourite band than listening to a digitally remastered imitation (which may sound "better") on Spotify.
* Why that's important for collectors, I have no idea.
posted by klanawa at 11:13 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
In other cases, you've got veritable factories.
Don’t discount the talents of those factory workers. They can often be quite good.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:33 AM on February 23 [1 favorite]
Don’t discount the talents of those factory workers. They can often be quite good.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:33 AM on February 23 [1 favorite]
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posted by OrangeDisk at 6:06 AM on February 22 [3 favorites]