Men & women responded differently to a positive fortune telling outcome
February 25, 2024 6:03 AM Subscribe
"Fortune telling is a widespread phenomenon, yet little is known about the extent to which people are affected by it—including those who consider themselves non-believers. The present research has investigated the power of a positive fortune telling outcome (vs. neutral vs. negative) on people’s financial risk taking. In two online experiments (n1 = 252; n2 = 441), we consistently found that positive fortune telling enhanced financial risk taking particularly among men. Additionally, we used a real online gambling game in a lab setting (n3 = 193) and found that positive fortune telling enhanced the likelihood that college students gambled for money. ... Thus, positive fortune telling can yield increased financial risk taking in men, but not (or less so) in women."
"In spite of the popularity of relying on superstition in people’s life, scientific understanding of superstition is still rather limited. Because of its irrational or paranormal nature, believing in superstition is often considered as nonscientific and unfounded [9], or as a failure of human rationality [10, 11]. Recently researchers started to explore and recognize the psychological benefits of believing in superstition, however, particularly in adverse situations. People have a strong need for recognizing causal (over noncausal) relationships regardless of whether these relationships are true [12]. Hence, it is common for many people, including intelligent and mentally stable adults, to be susceptible to superstition. This holds even for many people who claim to not believe in it [13]. Research suggested that people rely on superstition to combat feelings of uncertainty, high levels of psychological tension, and low levels of perceived control [14–17]. Furthermore, performing superstitious rituals can be a functional coping mechanism after losses [18], and may improve performance by boosting people’s confidence and increasing their task persistence [19]."
Tan X, van Prooijen J-W, van Lange PAM (2022) Positive fortune telling enhances men’s financial risk taking. PLoS ONE 17(9): e0273233. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0273233
"In spite of the popularity of relying on superstition in people’s life, scientific understanding of superstition is still rather limited. Because of its irrational or paranormal nature, believing in superstition is often considered as nonscientific and unfounded [9], or as a failure of human rationality [10, 11]. Recently researchers started to explore and recognize the psychological benefits of believing in superstition, however, particularly in adverse situations. People have a strong need for recognizing causal (over noncausal) relationships regardless of whether these relationships are true [12]. Hence, it is common for many people, including intelligent and mentally stable adults, to be susceptible to superstition. This holds even for many people who claim to not believe in it [13]. Research suggested that people rely on superstition to combat feelings of uncertainty, high levels of psychological tension, and low levels of perceived control [14–17]. Furthermore, performing superstitious rituals can be a functional coping mechanism after losses [18], and may improve performance by boosting people’s confidence and increasing their task persistence [19]."
Tan X, van Prooijen J-W, van Lange PAM (2022) Positive fortune telling enhances men’s financial risk taking. PLoS ONE 17(9): e0273233. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0273233
Huh. I thought that culturally, susceptibility to superstition was coded feminine.
posted by humbug at 6:53 AM on February 25 [6 favorites]
posted by humbug at 6:53 AM on February 25 [6 favorites]
Yeah, and it’s surely portrayed that way in the hundreds of novels I’ve read and movies I’ve watched where it comes into play. The exceptions are notable, and often either played for laughs or coded non-white. More recently I’ve seen the latter done with some degree of respect for varied cultural traditions, but historically… not so much.
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:24 AM on February 25 [5 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:24 AM on February 25 [5 favorites]
humbug, tell that to a sailor!
(Or a baseball player).
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:52 AM on February 25 [7 favorites]
(Or a baseball player).
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:52 AM on February 25 [7 favorites]
Huh. I thought that culturally, susceptibility to superstition was coded feminine.
And it wouldn't be the first time something was wrongly attributed to be highly female. Given all the wars in the world, I hink of men as the more emotional of the species.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:56 AM on February 25 [14 favorites]
And it wouldn't be the first time something was wrongly attributed to be highly female. Given all the wars in the world, I hink of men as the more emotional of the species.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:56 AM on February 25 [14 favorites]
I'm surprised that the article didn't address the documented differences between men and women in regards to financial optimism and risk aversion (here, for example; this is a 2023 article so Tan et al wouldn't have seen it, but there's a LOT of research on this). I feel like that would probably have influenced this effect.
Like, I'm very financially risk-adverse. I've never bought a lottery ticket, I've never gambled, I invest in the stock market but only in a "set it and forget it" diversified portfolio of index funds which is historically about as safe as you can get. I'm also not very superstitious. But even if I were... I cannot imagine my belief in a superstition getting over the hurdle of that financial risk-aversion. Whereas I know a lot of men who are carefree about money in a way that I'm just not, and it's easy to imagine them being swayed by a good feeling about something. There's a big gender gap in cryptocurrency investing, there's a big gender gap in day trading.
So I do wonder if what we're seeing here isn't "men are more superstitious than women" but "men are less financially risk-averse than women, and because of that, it's easier to induce them to gamble." In other words: If a fortune-teller predicts success for a man, and he thinks the prediction is 66% likely to be right, that's good enough to gamble on. If a fortune-teller predicts success for a woman, and she thinks the prediction is 66% likely to be right, that's not good enough to gamble on, because of the risk aversion.
(Just as a disclaimer, I'm in no way bio-essentialist about this; I think there are various socio-cultural reasons for women to be more financially risk-adverse.)
posted by Jeanne at 8:08 AM on February 25 [40 favorites]
Like, I'm very financially risk-adverse. I've never bought a lottery ticket, I've never gambled, I invest in the stock market but only in a "set it and forget it" diversified portfolio of index funds which is historically about as safe as you can get. I'm also not very superstitious. But even if I were... I cannot imagine my belief in a superstition getting over the hurdle of that financial risk-aversion. Whereas I know a lot of men who are carefree about money in a way that I'm just not, and it's easy to imagine them being swayed by a good feeling about something. There's a big gender gap in cryptocurrency investing, there's a big gender gap in day trading.
So I do wonder if what we're seeing here isn't "men are more superstitious than women" but "men are less financially risk-averse than women, and because of that, it's easier to induce them to gamble." In other words: If a fortune-teller predicts success for a man, and he thinks the prediction is 66% likely to be right, that's good enough to gamble on. If a fortune-teller predicts success for a woman, and she thinks the prediction is 66% likely to be right, that's not good enough to gamble on, because of the risk aversion.
(Just as a disclaimer, I'm in no way bio-essentialist about this; I think there are various socio-cultural reasons for women to be more financially risk-adverse.)
posted by Jeanne at 8:08 AM on February 25 [40 favorites]
Huh. I thought that culturally, susceptibility to superstition was coded feminine.
This is true—and disdain for superstition is definitely coded male
posted by librosegretti at 8:10 AM on February 25 [4 favorites]
This is true—and disdain for superstition is definitely coded male
posted by librosegretti at 8:10 AM on February 25 [4 favorites]
The article discussion section does call out the stereotype of women being more superstitious, which I appreciate:
There is no scientific consensus yet regarding the question if men or women are more superstitious. Some researchers proposed that women are more superstitious [46]. However, some research evidence is consistent with the notion that men are more superstitious. For instance, a field experiment on lucky numbers suggested that being assigned to lucky numbers does not influence women but increases overconfidence among men [34]. In two of our three studies (Study 1 and 2) we found that men have stronger beliefs in fortune telling. In addition, according to the meta-analytic overview of three studies, men were significantly affected by positive fortune telling whereas women were not.
I also found it interesting that people who say they don’t believe in superstition still tend to be influenced by it, and I’d love to see more research on that tendency.
FWIW, that’s consistent with my own experience — I’ve noticed that even though I consciously think that there’s no basis for believing in divination, when I happen to read a prediction, I notice myself subconsciously behaving as if it’s true. I tend to avoid reading any kind of predictions for that reason — because I personally know I’m susceptible to that unconscious influence.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 8:11 AM on February 25 [10 favorites]
There is no scientific consensus yet regarding the question if men or women are more superstitious. Some researchers proposed that women are more superstitious [46]. However, some research evidence is consistent with the notion that men are more superstitious. For instance, a field experiment on lucky numbers suggested that being assigned to lucky numbers does not influence women but increases overconfidence among men [34]. In two of our three studies (Study 1 and 2) we found that men have stronger beliefs in fortune telling. In addition, according to the meta-analytic overview of three studies, men were significantly affected by positive fortune telling whereas women were not.
I also found it interesting that people who say they don’t believe in superstition still tend to be influenced by it, and I’d love to see more research on that tendency.
FWIW, that’s consistent with my own experience — I’ve noticed that even though I consciously think that there’s no basis for believing in divination, when I happen to read a prediction, I notice myself subconsciously behaving as if it’s true. I tend to avoid reading any kind of predictions for that reason — because I personally know I’m susceptible to that unconscious influence.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 8:11 AM on February 25 [10 favorites]
men were significantly affected by positive fortune telling whereas women were not.
"You generally find women have more sense than men." - Lemmy.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:30 AM on February 25 [6 favorites]
"You generally find women have more sense than men." - Lemmy.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:30 AM on February 25 [6 favorites]
Yeah, this strikes me as "sun comes up in the east" findings - of course people who shoulder a greater cost for risk are going to be more risk-adverse, which is going to manifest in different ways, like being less receptive to encouragement to take risk. So it is wholly unsurprising that women would be less inclined to shoulder risk based on a positive fortune, and I'd be willing to bet that this would track across other populations that are risk-adverse based on a greater cost for risk.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:04 AM on February 25 [3 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:04 AM on February 25 [3 favorites]
In my experience, good predictions never happen and bad ones are more likely to, because that is how my life goes.
This kind of reminds me of how men will apply for a job if they barely meet half of the requirements and women make sure they have ALL before applying.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:14 AM on February 25 [8 favorites]
This kind of reminds me of how men will apply for a job if they barely meet half of the requirements and women make sure they have ALL before applying.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:14 AM on February 25 [8 favorites]
I'm also not very superstitious. But even if I were... I cannot imagine my belief in a superstition getting over the hurdle of that financial risk-aversion.
Yeah, I think the fortune-telling-angle is a red herring, this result can probably mostly be explained by gendered differences regarding risk tolerance, especially when it comes to financial risks.
Not surprised at all, that women might not be inspired by superstion to start betting money when they had no previous habit of doing this, although they still might be quite invested in superstitions in other ways. I thiink that for many people, the appeal of tarot, astrology, stuff like this is less about trying to predict the future, and more about making sense of yourself, your present and your past. The promise is to reveal some deeper truth about your inner nature, explaining why you are the way you are.
I don't believe in that stuff at all, but I can sink an hour into reading up about soon and moon signs, saturn placement in the sixth house or something, etc, because the person depicted by all this conjecture seems a lot more interesting than my current manifestation, and it's sometimes a bit fun to imagine what it would feel like to live the life of that other, more interesting person, who has, thanks to the Barnum effect, enough with me in common to not make it entirely implausible. It's a good journaling prompt. Like flipping a coin to make a choice and getting your answer from your kneejerk-reaction to the sight of heads-up for No or Yes.
posted by sohalt at 9:26 AM on February 25 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I think the fortune-telling-angle is a red herring, this result can probably mostly be explained by gendered differences regarding risk tolerance, especially when it comes to financial risks.
Not surprised at all, that women might not be inspired by superstion to start betting money when they had no previous habit of doing this, although they still might be quite invested in superstitions in other ways. I thiink that for many people, the appeal of tarot, astrology, stuff like this is less about trying to predict the future, and more about making sense of yourself, your present and your past. The promise is to reveal some deeper truth about your inner nature, explaining why you are the way you are.
I don't believe in that stuff at all, but I can sink an hour into reading up about soon and moon signs, saturn placement in the sixth house or something, etc, because the person depicted by all this conjecture seems a lot more interesting than my current manifestation, and it's sometimes a bit fun to imagine what it would feel like to live the life of that other, more interesting person, who has, thanks to the Barnum effect, enough with me in common to not make it entirely implausible. It's a good journaling prompt. Like flipping a coin to make a choice and getting your answer from your kneejerk-reaction to the sight of heads-up for No or Yes.
posted by sohalt at 9:26 AM on February 25 [2 favorites]
I grew up in a family and community where divination and magic were commonplace, and I think something a lot of the "mechanical universe", atheist-to-feel-better-than-other-people edgelords don't understand is that magic is, historically, a tool for managing risk.
Whether you believe in it or not, that's a huge part of its traditional function. Are you going to make a happy marriage? Risk. Are the crops going to be good this year? Risk. Keeping the household spirits and ancestors happy with offerings so they'll protect your family from malign influences and illnesses? That's risk management, baby.
Even now, my divination practice is partly a journaling prompt, sure, but it's also a way to check if anything uncool is coming down the pike. (Don't be a dick about this, OK? I'm explaining the mindset. I function in the world just fine.) This doesn't mean I'm going to fall to pieces if I pull the Tower, it just means I might check my password security, check in with my friends who've been fragile, schedule a checkup. It's a push to take commonsense precautions for a while.
A lot of women (and AFAB NB people and transwomen) I know use fortunetelling this way. We already function in an elevated arena of risk and it's just nice to feel like you have a heads up sometimes. Alternately, getting a positive result is a nice encouragement but not a sign to go all in--i.e. the Ace Of Pentacles might mean you'll nail that interview, it doesn't mean "invest all your money in WangCoin". It is not unrelated to the feminine interest in true crime media.
Even though obviously men/masc people can practice magic and witchcraft outright, I don't think that's what's happening here. Economics and finance are this weird realm (not in the fun way) where a lot of men have convinced themselves everything must be logical because there are numbers there. I think this makes them more susceptible to superstition, if anything, because instead of functioning within any kind of spiritual matrix, they can just take a positive sign as a confirmation of their own genius.
Crypto was obviously a scam from the beginning to me, not because I understand the stock market, but because I understand cults. I know what that glittery look in the eye means. It wasn't a surprise to me that most of the people who were ensnared were men, either, including men who personally gave me shit about reading tarot occasionally. Whoops, this deck was $35 and you lost ten grand to some guy in an ironic cowboy hat, please tell me again about sound financial decisions.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 9:36 AM on February 25 [38 favorites]
Whether you believe in it or not, that's a huge part of its traditional function. Are you going to make a happy marriage? Risk. Are the crops going to be good this year? Risk. Keeping the household spirits and ancestors happy with offerings so they'll protect your family from malign influences and illnesses? That's risk management, baby.
Even now, my divination practice is partly a journaling prompt, sure, but it's also a way to check if anything uncool is coming down the pike. (Don't be a dick about this, OK? I'm explaining the mindset. I function in the world just fine.) This doesn't mean I'm going to fall to pieces if I pull the Tower, it just means I might check my password security, check in with my friends who've been fragile, schedule a checkup. It's a push to take commonsense precautions for a while.
A lot of women (and AFAB NB people and transwomen) I know use fortunetelling this way. We already function in an elevated arena of risk and it's just nice to feel like you have a heads up sometimes. Alternately, getting a positive result is a nice encouragement but not a sign to go all in--i.e. the Ace Of Pentacles might mean you'll nail that interview, it doesn't mean "invest all your money in WangCoin". It is not unrelated to the feminine interest in true crime media.
Even though obviously men/masc people can practice magic and witchcraft outright, I don't think that's what's happening here. Economics and finance are this weird realm (not in the fun way) where a lot of men have convinced themselves everything must be logical because there are numbers there. I think this makes them more susceptible to superstition, if anything, because instead of functioning within any kind of spiritual matrix, they can just take a positive sign as a confirmation of their own genius.
Crypto was obviously a scam from the beginning to me, not because I understand the stock market, but because I understand cults. I know what that glittery look in the eye means. It wasn't a surprise to me that most of the people who were ensnared were men, either, including men who personally gave me shit about reading tarot occasionally. Whoops, this deck was $35 and you lost ten grand to some guy in an ironic cowboy hat, please tell me again about sound financial decisions.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 9:36 AM on February 25 [38 favorites]
Nibbly Fang, I appreciate you sharing that perspective - and I wonder whether the converse is also true: that, in a life full of risk and vigilance, getting more positive divination results may give you some space to relax your vigilance for a bit?
posted by kristi at 10:06 AM on February 25 [5 favorites]
posted by kristi at 10:06 AM on February 25 [5 favorites]
Nibbly Fang, I appreciate you sharing that perspective - and I wonder whether the converse is also true: that, in a life full of risk and vigilance, getting more positive divination results may give you some space to relax your vigilance for a bit?
Yeah, I think this is true. I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I think the prevailing mode of divination (especially professional divination) is talking about influences and energies vs. concrete events. Partly this is because of anti-witchcraft laws in a lot of places, and also to keep unscrupulous fortunetellers from preying on people (ie, "you'll get in a car accident unless you give me $500 to perform a cleansing ritual"--that's generally illegal). It's also just because of changing witchcraft trends, I think. But I won't deny I feel more relaxed going into my week if I pull a full spread of positive cards.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 10:32 AM on February 25 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I think this is true. I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I think the prevailing mode of divination (especially professional divination) is talking about influences and energies vs. concrete events. Partly this is because of anti-witchcraft laws in a lot of places, and also to keep unscrupulous fortunetellers from preying on people (ie, "you'll get in a car accident unless you give me $500 to perform a cleansing ritual"--that's generally illegal). It's also just because of changing witchcraft trends, I think. But I won't deny I feel more relaxed going into my week if I pull a full spread of positive cards.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 10:32 AM on February 25 [1 favorite]
Huh. I thought that culturally, susceptibility to superstition was coded feminine.
Foolish superstition is coded female. Reasonable superstition is coded male.
My mom always used to point out the baseball batters who adjusted their non-existent bra straps every time they stepped into the batter's box. Gary Cater, catcher for the Expos in particular. Male superstitious behavior gets labeled as ritual or tradition rather than superstition and it's considered practical to sooth/comfort oneself in these ways. In many cases male superstitions are even mandatory obligations like the rules around men drinking.
Also for the people who think only bad divinations come true - remember there are an infinite ways things can go wrong and typically only a single or at best a very few specific ways things are considered to have gone right. A clever soothsayer should always predict that things will not go as planned!
posted by srboisvert at 10:43 AM on February 25 [9 favorites]
Foolish superstition is coded female. Reasonable superstition is coded male.
My mom always used to point out the baseball batters who adjusted their non-existent bra straps every time they stepped into the batter's box. Gary Cater, catcher for the Expos in particular. Male superstitious behavior gets labeled as ritual or tradition rather than superstition and it's considered practical to sooth/comfort oneself in these ways. In many cases male superstitions are even mandatory obligations like the rules around men drinking.
Also for the people who think only bad divinations come true - remember there are an infinite ways things can go wrong and typically only a single or at best a very few specific ways things are considered to have gone right. A clever soothsayer should always predict that things will not go as planned!
posted by srboisvert at 10:43 AM on February 25 [9 favorites]
Well, actually reading the article (with a background in the behavioral sciences), they did three studies and in two of them financial risk-taking was measured by self-report on one’s willingness to take financial risk. In these studies men reported higher willingness to take financial risk after a positive fortune; positive fortunes did not affect women’s report of their willingness to take financial risk.
In the third study they did two experiments. One of them was a hypothetical around lottery tickets, the other involved actual gambling for real money in the lab setting. In the hypothetical situation, there was no effect of fortune telling. Women reported a low willingness to buy lottery tickets, and men reported a high willingness to buy lottery tickets, regardless of fortune.
In the actual gambling situation, the effect of gender disappeared. Both women and men, when playing for real money, took greater financial risk after receiving a positive fortune. When real cash was involved, both women and men were more willing to gamble after receiving a positive fortune.
So one way to read this article is that both men and women are swayed by positive fortunes re: financial risk-taking, women are just more likely to lie about it.
(Is that my takeaway from the study? Not at all. I think it’s more complex than that and doesn’t describe the actual phenomenon well. But it’s a great example of how easy it is to manipulate soundbites!)
posted by brook horse at 10:45 AM on February 25 [13 favorites]
In the third study they did two experiments. One of them was a hypothetical around lottery tickets, the other involved actual gambling for real money in the lab setting. In the hypothetical situation, there was no effect of fortune telling. Women reported a low willingness to buy lottery tickets, and men reported a high willingness to buy lottery tickets, regardless of fortune.
In the actual gambling situation, the effect of gender disappeared. Both women and men, when playing for real money, took greater financial risk after receiving a positive fortune. When real cash was involved, both women and men were more willing to gamble after receiving a positive fortune.
So one way to read this article is that both men and women are swayed by positive fortunes re: financial risk-taking, women are just more likely to lie about it.
(Is that my takeaway from the study? Not at all. I think it’s more complex than that and doesn’t describe the actual phenomenon well. But it’s a great example of how easy it is to manipulate soundbites!)
posted by brook horse at 10:45 AM on February 25 [13 favorites]
And it wouldn't be the first time something was wrongly attributed to be highly female. Given all the wars in the world, I hink of men as the more emotional of the species.
I spend way too much time in the comment section of The Athletic and this observation is certainly supported there. I tend to dig around for stats and metrics to point out patterns; and support, upend or refine my point of view. A lot of sports fans really struggle with this. People are very emotionally attached to their point of view WRT sports, and most of these people appear to be men. Logic and facts, pshaw.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:47 AM on February 25
I spend way too much time in the comment section of The Athletic and this observation is certainly supported there. I tend to dig around for stats and metrics to point out patterns; and support, upend or refine my point of view. A lot of sports fans really struggle with this. People are very emotionally attached to their point of view WRT sports, and most of these people appear to be men. Logic and facts, pshaw.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:47 AM on February 25
A lot of sports fans really struggle with this. People are very emotionally attached to their point of view WRT sports, and most of these people appear to be men.
Fandom shipping wars would like to have a word with you. ;) I think, perhaps, we are simply a highly emotional species across the board, and how that is expressed and then subsequently valorized or condemned varies in ways that don’t fall cleanly into a bioessentialist men vs women take in either direction.
posted by brook horse at 10:51 AM on February 25 [8 favorites]
Fandom shipping wars would like to have a word with you. ;) I think, perhaps, we are simply a highly emotional species across the board, and how that is expressed and then subsequently valorized or condemned varies in ways that don’t fall cleanly into a bioessentialist men vs women take in either direction.
posted by brook horse at 10:51 AM on February 25 [8 favorites]
humbug, tell that to a sailor!
Or wide swaths of Christianity with special attention to those practicing prosperity theology.
posted by Mitheral at 11:05 AM on February 25
Or wide swaths of Christianity with special attention to those practicing prosperity theology.
posted by Mitheral at 11:05 AM on February 25
As always when I read something about practicing magic in a theoretical sense, I'm going to recommend T.M. Luhrmann's Persuasions of the Witch's Craft to interested parties. It came out in 1991 so there are probably newer books that address the same issues. I read it in the early 90s, so soon after it came out, and it really changed my view of magic, and by extension prayer/religion (in many cases these are overlapping if not identical practices).
The relevance here is one of the observations in the book about how software guys (often but not always men) overlap with magicians, and why: these are the rules about how you manipulate the universe. You can see how that plays into other interactions described in the comments above.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:18 AM on February 25 [3 favorites]
The relevance here is one of the observations in the book about how software guys (often but not always men) overlap with magicians, and why: these are the rules about how you manipulate the universe. You can see how that plays into other interactions described in the comments above.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:18 AM on February 25 [3 favorites]
positive fortune telling enhanced the likelihood that college students gambled for money
Which might explain the content of ads for this practice (which is growing a lot now, in the US).
posted by doctornemo at 12:18 PM on February 25 [1 favorite]
Which might explain the content of ads for this practice (which is growing a lot now, in the US).
posted by doctornemo at 12:18 PM on February 25 [1 favorite]
Following up on Jeanne's comment: because of the higher risk aversion among women, they are both better and worse investors than men. On one hand they are worse because they tend to underweight stocks in their portfolio, so end up with lower long-term growth. However, they are also less optimistic about their ability to pick stocks and time the market, so men tend to trade more frequently, which harms their overall returns. (On average, etc.)
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 4:14 PM on February 25
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 4:14 PM on February 25
So I do wonder if what we're seeing here isn't "men are more superstitious than women" but "men are less financially risk-averse than women, and because of that, it's easier to induce them to gamble."This seems to be supported by Fig. 1, which shows that negative fortune telling had more effect on women than on men.
posted by mbrubeck at 8:37 PM on February 25 [2 favorites]
"A lot of women (...) and transwomen"
You need to cut this shit out. Seriously.
posted by tigrrrlily at 10:30 PM on February 26
You need to cut this shit out. Seriously.
posted by tigrrrlily at 10:30 PM on February 26
Mod note: Note: re tigrrrlily's comment, please note that the terms“male” and “female” and “man” and “woman” to refer to a person’s gender identity, and transgender people are men or women, full stop. (People who do not identify specifically as male or female might be nonbinary, or just "genderqueer." ) Here is a pretty good guide to transgender 101 info, but as super quick shorthand here, when speaking about men or women, that includes transgender men or women, and when speaking about trans men or trans women (as well as nonbinary, etc.), that is specific to people who were misidentified as male or female (usually) at birth (AMAB / AFAB). So, for example, talking about "clothes for women / men" includes all women / men, and talking about "laws affecting trans women / men" is specifically about transgender women / men. Thanks!
posted by taz (staff) at 2:41 AM on February 27 [2 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 2:41 AM on February 27 [2 favorites]
To go back to the original article (with a related aside that the term 'transwomen' is not a thing, so please don't use it), I was very concerned when I read it. There's no discussion of or differentiation for genders other than 'men' and 'women.' In an article published in 2022 that is squarely focused on gender and links to behavior, this is a gross oversight, and one that may even be tied to the source of funding (I'm curious if anyone has insight into that from professional experience - it's the China Scholarship Council).
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 4:15 PM on February 27 [1 favorite]
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 4:15 PM on February 27 [1 favorite]
I can't speak to the funding source. I was a little surprised as the lack of differentiation for other genders, too, but plenty of scholarship that fits those variables does not seem to engage in greater differentiation. E.G. I just searched PubMed and found plenty of articles published in the past year that seem to fit.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:44 PM on February 27
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:44 PM on February 27
plenty of scholarship that fits those variables does not seem to engage in greater differentiation.
I really appreciate your checking whether it's common - I was afraid it might be. Which makes me wonder how useful any of this sort of information is - how much the field needs to evolve, and quickly. I mean, I know *gobs* of nonbinary people, of all stripes and flavors - and to try to lump them into rough groups of 'men' or 'women' is useless or worse.
So yeah, I really want to engage with the article (I find all sorts of validation in commonalities with my own behavior as a woman! And I'm very much interested in the connections between the feminine and the spiritual), but I have to tell myself it has little insight into the reality of gender and behavior, given the glaring oversight.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 4:49 PM on February 27
I really appreciate your checking whether it's common - I was afraid it might be. Which makes me wonder how useful any of this sort of information is - how much the field needs to evolve, and quickly. I mean, I know *gobs* of nonbinary people, of all stripes and flavors - and to try to lump them into rough groups of 'men' or 'women' is useless or worse.
So yeah, I really want to engage with the article (I find all sorts of validation in commonalities with my own behavior as a woman! And I'm very much interested in the connections between the feminine and the spiritual), but I have to tell myself it has little insight into the reality of gender and behavior, given the glaring oversight.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 4:49 PM on February 27
I’m in the field of behavioral research in the US. It has nothing to do with the funding source; this is just what research is like all over the world. Some people are doing it better but most people are not. Having an option for nonbinary people—much less running any specific stats on it—is still fairly uncommon in the published research. Jumping to the conclusion that it’s because the research from China is misguided; the US is unfortunately just as bad.
posted by brook horse at 5:06 PM on February 27 [3 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 5:06 PM on February 27 [3 favorites]
It's frustrating, thinking of my trans, nonbinary, and otherwise gender nonconforming peeps. You have to do what you have to do, I guess, when it comes to figuring out what material to engage with. I look at stuff like this article and see gaps which I hope someone is going to address down the road. Yes, it should be more comprehensive and inclusive from the start, but I don't know many fields--exceptions like gender, sexuality, and women's studies aside--that de rigueur try to begin from a place of full inclusion. Subfields of some disciplines, yes, but on the whole... eh. On preview, what brook horse said.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:10 PM on February 27
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:10 PM on February 27
One thing to remember is research is almost always a few years behind on social and cultural issues because the way research funding and publication works, the study design is set way back in the grant-writing phase. Getting the funding, completing the research, and publishing it all take years worth of time. That’s assuming a brand-new study, with a single data collection point, and not something that’s part of an ongoing project where data collection happens repeatedly over the span of years to decades.
posted by brook horse at 5:36 PM on February 27 [2 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 5:36 PM on February 27 [2 favorites]
Part of my job is reviewing research studies at a US university during their ethics approval process, and I've managed to develop a reputation as The One On The Committee Who Always Makes Everyone Rewrite Their Protocols Because Of Genders. Over time I really am seeing consistent improvement across all kinds of research, fewer studies I send back to rethink various aspects of their plans or data collection forms to address the existence of >2 genders. But if I make someone get their act together about gender for a pilot study today, by the time they do that study and use the data to get funding for a real study and receive that funding and run that study and write that article and publish it, yeah, it's going to be many years before that sees the light of day. If it ever does. But for what it's worth, I do see this improving, if not as fast as it should, from my position at the very starting point of the research we might read about in five years if everything goes smoothly.
posted by Stacey at 6:23 PM on February 27 [5 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 6:23 PM on February 27 [5 favorites]
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posted by cupcakeninja at 6:09 AM on February 25 [6 favorites]