Porn can speak to desires that are not spoken to elsewhere
March 9, 2024 2:54 AM Subscribe
Who knows where we get our desires from? That’s a question feminists were asking back in the 1960s. And also: Would it be possible to exorcise patriarchal or heteronormative desires from a feminist sexuality? There are quite considerable debates right now about whether we can identify healthy or authentically feminist sexual desires, because how do we know which ones are created by the patriarchy? A young woman’s interest in romantic heroes, for example, could be entirely dependent on a patriarchal fantasy. But how do you get rid of that particular fantasy? I don’t think it’s possible. from Is This Desire?, an interview with Clarissa Smith [CW: talking about porn]
May I recommend "Return of the Goddess" by Edward Whitmont. It is not a new age book at all, but deals with the suppression of the Dionysian aspect of the archetypal Feminine by the patriarchy. Not an easy read but well worth it.
posted by DJZouke at 4:59 AM on March 9 [3 favorites]
posted by DJZouke at 4:59 AM on March 9 [3 favorites]
A young woman’s interest in romantic heroes, for example, could be entirely dependent on a patriarchal fantasy. But how do you get rid of that particular fantasy?
If a fantasy falls in a forest and no one is around to fantasize it, does it make a desire?
posted by fairmettle at 5:43 AM on March 9 [4 favorites]
If a fantasy falls in a forest and no one is around to fantasize it, does it make a desire?
posted by fairmettle at 5:43 AM on March 9 [4 favorites]
It is long, but worth reading in its entirety. Thank you for posting this!
There are lots of good, thought-provoking sections. This is just one that caught my eye:
I feel like we are in a dangerous moment and moving backwards in terms of sexual rights. It’s often women’s rights that end up being thrown under the bus, so it is concerning that there’s such an odd amalgam of protest against trans people—with people on the Left, and from within LGBTQ+ groups, joining some women to say, “We don’t believe that trans women are women,” and making alliance with causes and groups that are now limiting abortion in the US and who would not protect women’s rights going forward. We’re seeing a rise of that here in the UK, with Christian groups looking to the example of the US and thinking, That’s where we want to go.
I think that LGBTQ+ individuals are test cases for groups looking to limit sexual rights more broadly: How much can we push back on their rights, and what can we do to ban other expressions of sexuality that we don’t like? And other forms of bodily autonomy—who gets the right to choose?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:55 AM on March 9 [14 favorites]
There are lots of good, thought-provoking sections. This is just one that caught my eye:
I feel like we are in a dangerous moment and moving backwards in terms of sexual rights. It’s often women’s rights that end up being thrown under the bus, so it is concerning that there’s such an odd amalgam of protest against trans people—with people on the Left, and from within LGBTQ+ groups, joining some women to say, “We don’t believe that trans women are women,” and making alliance with causes and groups that are now limiting abortion in the US and who would not protect women’s rights going forward. We’re seeing a rise of that here in the UK, with Christian groups looking to the example of the US and thinking, That’s where we want to go.
I think that LGBTQ+ individuals are test cases for groups looking to limit sexual rights more broadly: How much can we push back on their rights, and what can we do to ban other expressions of sexuality that we don’t like? And other forms of bodily autonomy—who gets the right to choose?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:55 AM on March 9 [14 favorites]
and making alliance with causes and groups that are now limiting abortion in the US and who would not protect women’s rights going forward.
Just as some people vote against their economic interests because they love racism more than they love money, some people love transphobia more than they love their own civil rights.
Hate and tribalism are a hellavu drug.
posted by AlSweigart at 7:00 AM on March 9 [10 favorites]
Just as some people vote against their economic interests because they love racism more than they love money, some people love transphobia more than they love their own civil rights.
Hate and tribalism are a hellavu drug.
posted by AlSweigart at 7:00 AM on March 9 [10 favorites]
Heteronormative male here, so my insights on all this are pretty limited, but having just watched Poor Things, it occurred to me it has some themes that overlap with these issues in a very interesting way. Regardless, definitely check out Poor Things, it's hilarious.
posted by mikeand1 at 11:09 AM on March 9 [2 favorites]
posted by mikeand1 at 11:09 AM on March 9 [2 favorites]
definitely check out Poor Things, it's hilarious.
Not simply hilarious...a great critique of a variety of common masculine 'poses' taken in front of/for women. And Emma Stone's performance is brilliant.
(sorry for derail but couldn't resist opportunity to gush about this film)
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 2:25 PM on March 9 [2 favorites]
Not simply hilarious...a great critique of a variety of common masculine 'poses' taken in front of/for women. And Emma Stone's performance is brilliant.
(sorry for derail but couldn't resist opportunity to gush about this film)
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 2:25 PM on March 9 [2 favorites]
Dip Flash nailed it, that was the exact same quote I wanted to pull out.
> I feel like we are in a dangerous moment and moving backwards in terms of sexual rights.
I have also felt it’s a dangerous moment, and feel it goes beyond sexual rights - at least in Britain, where I live. The war against trans people aside, and despite weaker freedom of speech laws and the obscenity laws mentioned in the article, we in Britain don’t have the same issues as in the US. No suggestion of rolling back abortion rights or same-sex marriage, or banning IVF. But other rights (to health, labour protections, security from destitution, or a democratic vote) have all been whittled away. Not to mention the way our political class and professional services industries were bought wholesale by autocratic kleptocracies, one of which is now waging a brutal war on Europe’s borders.
I think of politics as society’s discussion over who gets what - material wealth, or rights, or social standing, or something else - as well as our logic as to why. And I feel the mood has shifted: “A few of us have decided that some of you have had way too much, for way too long, and it’s time for you lot to expect less.”
posted by Probabilitics at 3:06 PM on March 9 [4 favorites]
> I feel like we are in a dangerous moment and moving backwards in terms of sexual rights.
I have also felt it’s a dangerous moment, and feel it goes beyond sexual rights - at least in Britain, where I live. The war against trans people aside, and despite weaker freedom of speech laws and the obscenity laws mentioned in the article, we in Britain don’t have the same issues as in the US. No suggestion of rolling back abortion rights or same-sex marriage, or banning IVF. But other rights (to health, labour protections, security from destitution, or a democratic vote) have all been whittled away. Not to mention the way our political class and professional services industries were bought wholesale by autocratic kleptocracies, one of which is now waging a brutal war on Europe’s borders.
I think of politics as society’s discussion over who gets what - material wealth, or rights, or social standing, or something else - as well as our logic as to why. And I feel the mood has shifted: “A few of us have decided that some of you have had way too much, for way too long, and it’s time for you lot to expect less.”
posted by Probabilitics at 3:06 PM on March 9 [4 favorites]
If a fantasy falls in a forest and no one is around to fantasize it, does it make a desire?
It's hilarious but it also speaks to the idea that there are sexual fantasies that come from authentic, healthy sources and sexual fantasies that are highly maladaptive at best and the result of an active malevolent force at worst. Which are which depends on where you're standing--one person's patriarchial lord (bad thing) is another's patriarchial lord (good thing).
posted by kingdead at 6:02 PM on March 9 [3 favorites]
It's hilarious but it also speaks to the idea that there are sexual fantasies that come from authentic, healthy sources and sexual fantasies that are highly maladaptive at best and the result of an active malevolent force at worst. Which are which depends on where you're standing--one person's patriarchial lord (bad thing) is another's patriarchial lord (good thing).
posted by kingdead at 6:02 PM on March 9 [3 favorites]
This is interesting - one particular piece I hadn’t thought about but that makes total sense is:
you can’t assume from the fact that the word banged is used in the title that this is going to be violent porn, because even the most romantic sexual intercourse will be advertised as “banged” or “fucked” or whatever. That’s how you get your video moved to the top of the recommendations. And no one is willing to pay an army of researchers to actually look at the content of the top one hundred films on Pornhub.
I do wish they went a little more into the uncoupling of desire and society, but I understand that would be a much longer article.
posted by corb at 9:50 PM on March 9 [1 favorite]
you can’t assume from the fact that the word banged is used in the title that this is going to be violent porn, because even the most romantic sexual intercourse will be advertised as “banged” or “fucked” or whatever. That’s how you get your video moved to the top of the recommendations. And no one is willing to pay an army of researchers to actually look at the content of the top one hundred films on Pornhub.
I do wish they went a little more into the uncoupling of desire and society, but I understand that would be a much longer article.
posted by corb at 9:50 PM on March 9 [1 favorite]
No suggestion of rolling back abortion rights [in Britain]
Maybe our issues don't look the same, but there's still issues there.
posted by sourcejedi at 1:09 AM on March 10 [2 favorites]
Maybe our issues don't look the same, but there's still issues there.
posted by sourcejedi at 1:09 AM on March 10 [2 favorites]
Excellent read on a topic that few would dare to dive into.
posted by dg at 9:25 PM on March 10 [1 favorite]
posted by dg at 9:25 PM on March 10 [1 favorite]
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posted by gimonca at 4:54 AM on March 9 [4 favorites]