The 3 Body Problem is out!
March 22, 2024 11:52 AM Subscribe
After a failed adaptation in 2017, Netflix has finally released the home-streaming adaptation of Cixin Liu's Three Body Problem trilogy. How will the slow build to epic scope that prevented some readers from finishing the book series fare in the hands of the same showrunners that brought you Game of Thrones? Binge ready for the weekend (trigger warning: starts with violence).
I for one am looking forward to the series. With any hope (I don't think this is a spoiler), the adaptation will bring millions of viewers the same liberation it brought me from my last great fear: the ultimate fate of the Universe.
Previously
"They are coming. And there's nothing you can do to stop them" - trailer announcement
“Weakness and ignorance are not barriers to survival, but arrogance is.” - dive into Chinese Sci-Fi
"Liu Cixin's War of the Worlds" - a profile in The New Yorker
"50 Best Sci-Fi Books of All Time" - #11
"Let The Arguing Begin!" - The 21 Best Science Fiction and Fantasy Book Series Ever
I for one am looking forward to the series. With any hope (I don't think this is a spoiler), the adaptation will bring millions of viewers the same liberation it brought me from my last great fear: the ultimate fate of the Universe.
Previously
"They are coming. And there's nothing you can do to stop them" - trailer announcement
“Weakness and ignorance are not barriers to survival, but arrogance is.” - dive into Chinese Sci-Fi
"Liu Cixin's War of the Worlds" - a profile in The New Yorker
"50 Best Sci-Fi Books of All Time" - #11
"Let The Arguing Begin!" - The 21 Best Science Fiction and Fantasy Book Series Ever
It wasn't "slow to build" that prevented me from going beyond the first book. But I hope the TV show is good.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:58 AM on March 22 [13 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:58 AM on March 22 [13 favorites]
I bounced off this book hard the first time I tried it, been thinking about giving it another shot. A good friend of mine loved it, for his sake I hope the adaptation is good.
posted by AdamCSnider at 12:06 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
posted by AdamCSnider at 12:06 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
The best years of Game of Thrones was when Benioff and Weiss had strong, complete novels to adapt -- and some of the great subplots were largely their own and were pulled off masterfully (Arya becoming the cupbearer for Tywin Lannister and their interactions, for example). I'm going to wait until I can binge more episodes, but I'm going to give it a chance.
posted by tclark at 12:07 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
posted by tclark at 12:07 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
I'm enjoying this after two episodes. I know that might make me kinda basic, considering that it's deliberately not as challenging as the books or the Chinese adaptation. But look, I just go here.
And I also bounced off the first book, even as I started out deeply interested in the story of Ye Wenjie. I did learn somewhere what she had done to start [spoiler redacted] and why. Even without encountering it in the story, I've thought about it a lot. Especially these days, when people joke about wanting a meteor to hit us.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:15 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
And I also bounced off the first book, even as I started out deeply interested in the story of Ye Wenjie. I did learn somewhere what she had done to start [spoiler redacted] and why. Even without encountering it in the story, I've thought about it a lot. Especially these days, when people joke about wanting a meteor to hit us.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:15 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
Reuters: Netflix's '3 Body Problem' leaves jaws dropped among Chinese viewers
Others objected to the way the Netflix adaptation shifts the action from China to a group of British physicists nicknamed the "Oxford Five" [which] showed "Westerners fundamentally can't accept the idea of Chinese people inventing cutting-edge technology."posted by Rash at 12:16 PM on March 22 [22 favorites]
Still watching through the Chinese adaptation right now, which I absolutely love.
posted by ocschwar at 12:26 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 12:26 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
I just clicked on it because Netflix has been hammering it into my brain for weeks so I was curious. Now I chiefly wonder why is every lady physicist + the creepy disappearing murderblonde + the ethereal videogame guide a hottie with a rockin' little body but all the men have normaldudeface and dadphysique? Was that the conditions on the ground in GoT, too? Why am I even asking, ki-yi-diggy-diggy? Bleeding edge sci fi and fantasy for grownups forces the viewer to challenge all preconceptions except the single most sacred one, that every woman who appears on a TV screen has to look like she could land a supporting role on a prime time hospital soap.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:43 PM on March 22 [12 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 12:43 PM on March 22 [12 favorites]
Same here, ocschwar. The Chinese adaptation is *30 episodes long* and very faithful to the novel.
Hoping to start the Netflix version tonight. Already unhappy that it decenters China.
posted by doctornemo at 12:43 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
Hoping to start the Netflix version tonight. Already unhappy that it decenters China.
posted by doctornemo at 12:43 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
my pet peeve with the book is that it's billed as "hard scifi" but insists that you can use quantum entanglement to transmit information faster-than-light, which you can't. maybe you can using some new physics, but existing physics can't do that, and a hard scifi book should at least recognize this!
posted by BungaDunga at 12:51 PM on March 22 [8 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 12:51 PM on March 22 [8 favorites]
I couldn't finish the first book, but the review I just read in the WaPo is so positive that I might give the series a try. That reviewer made it sound more like a series about young scientists and less about all that stuff. So maybe this...let's call it a reframing will help.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:52 PM on March 22
posted by wenestvedt at 12:52 PM on March 22
The trailers made me concerned (as did Benioff & Weiss' involvement), as well as Netflix's checkered history with these adaptations (most recently, Avatar)
I will probably give the first few episodes a shot, but I'm feeling like I'm going to bounce off of this hard. A lot of the charm and enjoyment I found in the novel (and the slow burn Chinese adaptation) is that for once we had an massive, cataclysmic, global, generation-spanning, interstellar epic that didn't focus on things through a Western location and a Western lens. The way the Cultural Revolution echoed through one person's life and reverberated through the decisions made, in how humanity reacts, or the references to Chinese history and literary canon were starkly refreshing in a way that the jingoism and Hollywood blockbuster style of The Wandering Earth adaptation couldn't be (though that was refreshing in its own way).
But now it's in London.
I dunno. Maybe it won't feel like it was ripped from its roots.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:53 PM on March 22 [19 favorites]
I will probably give the first few episodes a shot, but I'm feeling like I'm going to bounce off of this hard. A lot of the charm and enjoyment I found in the novel (and the slow burn Chinese adaptation) is that for once we had an massive, cataclysmic, global, generation-spanning, interstellar epic that didn't focus on things through a Western location and a Western lens. The way the Cultural Revolution echoed through one person's life and reverberated through the decisions made, in how humanity reacts, or the references to Chinese history and literary canon were starkly refreshing in a way that the jingoism and Hollywood blockbuster style of The Wandering Earth adaptation couldn't be (though that was refreshing in its own way).
But now it's in London.
I dunno. Maybe it won't feel like it was ripped from its roots.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:53 PM on March 22 [19 favorites]
Absolutely the same pet peeve as BungaDunga - the first book starts off very hard sci-fi, very plausible, just a little suspension of disbelief, and then already by the end of the first book there's FTL communications and a bunch of other magical nonsense dressed up in physics language.
It started out in one lane and ended in a completely different one, and that's before getting to all of the wild stuff in books two and three.
It's also basically the darkest, most pessimistic vision of the universe imaginable. I don't know why people like this series so much.
posted by allegedly at 1:08 PM on March 22 [13 favorites]
It started out in one lane and ended in a completely different one, and that's before getting to all of the wild stuff in books two and three.
It's also basically the darkest, most pessimistic vision of the universe imaginable. I don't know why people like this series so much.
posted by allegedly at 1:08 PM on March 22 [13 favorites]
It wasn't "slow to build" that prevented me from going beyond the first book. But I hope the TV show is good.
I got through the first book fine. Enjoyed it, actually, once I got accustomed to the author’s voice. But, man, that second book was like hitting the proverbial brick wall. I just couldn’t get a handle on it, no matter how much I tried.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:18 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
I got through the first book fine. Enjoyed it, actually, once I got accustomed to the author’s voice. But, man, that second book was like hitting the proverbial brick wall. I just couldn’t get a handle on it, no matter how much I tried.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:18 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
It's also basically the darkest, most pessimistic vision of the universe imaginable. I don't know why people like this series so much.
it is, but tbh it (and other, less pessimistic stories by cixin liu) are notable and fascinating precisely because they're not centered on the west, and have deep references to the literary canon and history common to the sinosphere.
when most of the sci-fi epics you grow up with weren't written by people who look like you, who had zero connection to the cultures of your ancestry, even if the first one that gets big is a dark, depressing, pessimistic one, it's still a breath of fresh air.
would i say the wandering earth is a great movie? no. it's a bombastic, cgi-driven, armageddonesque summer blockbuster of a movie with jingoistic traits that paints a united world with chinese heroes and a stark absence of americans. is it fun to watch and a fascinating glimpse into what it might be like to be non-american, non-european, non-anglo and watch people with faces unlike yours saving the world with future tech? yes.
and that's why i like it. because as american as i am, wu jing looks more people in my family than arnold schwarzenegger or bruce willis.
posted by i used to be someone else at 1:28 PM on March 22 [13 favorites]
it is, but tbh it (and other, less pessimistic stories by cixin liu) are notable and fascinating precisely because they're not centered on the west, and have deep references to the literary canon and history common to the sinosphere.
when most of the sci-fi epics you grow up with weren't written by people who look like you, who had zero connection to the cultures of your ancestry, even if the first one that gets big is a dark, depressing, pessimistic one, it's still a breath of fresh air.
would i say the wandering earth is a great movie? no. it's a bombastic, cgi-driven, armageddonesque summer blockbuster of a movie with jingoistic traits that paints a united world with chinese heroes and a stark absence of americans. is it fun to watch and a fascinating glimpse into what it might be like to be non-american, non-european, non-anglo and watch people with faces unlike yours saving the world with future tech? yes.
and that's why i like it. because as american as i am, wu jing looks more people in my family than arnold schwarzenegger or bruce willis.
posted by i used to be someone else at 1:28 PM on March 22 [13 favorites]
Does the Chinese series have less gore, animal harm, and disturbing imagery? I’m enjoying the Netflix series after 3 episodes, but certain people can’t watch it with me because of those elements.
posted by umber vowel at 1:35 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
posted by umber vowel at 1:35 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
notable and fascinating precisely because they're not centered on the west,
this was, for me, one of the big selling points. Not really knowing anything about recent Chinese history, I did not realise the cultural revolution was still in motion in 1976: That and the central action that kicks off the whole story which I won't spoiler here but that absolutely rocked my world (for being surprising! and deeply human).
If it has shifted the focus of the story from China I will also be less-than thrilled.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:41 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
this was, for me, one of the big selling points. Not really knowing anything about recent Chinese history, I did not realise the cultural revolution was still in motion in 1976: That and the central action that kicks off the whole story which I won't spoiler here but that absolutely rocked my world (for being surprising! and deeply human).
If it has shifted the focus of the story from China I will also be less-than thrilled.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:41 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
The Chinese series has about 0 gore.
posted by ocschwar at 1:46 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 1:46 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
But now it's in London.
The idea that Clarence and his boss could see any stars from the roof of a building in central London may be the most far fetched thing in this. There's way too much light pollution here for that to be possible even without galactic blinking.
posted by Paul Slade at 1:47 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
The idea that Clarence and his boss could see any stars from the roof of a building in central London may be the most far fetched thing in this. There's way too much light pollution here for that to be possible even without galactic blinking.
posted by Paul Slade at 1:47 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
It's also basically the darkest, most pessimistic vision of the universe imaginable. I don't know why people like this series so much.
Have you looked at popular fiction for the past decade+? I've been to school libraries where they make dystopias a *section*.
(That's not the only reason people like the books, btw)
posted by doctornemo at 1:58 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
Have you looked at popular fiction for the past decade+? I've been to school libraries where they make dystopias a *section*.
(That's not the only reason people like the books, btw)
posted by doctornemo at 1:58 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
I only know the faintest of the plot but I constantly think about the AI hoovering up art and how it relates to this... How artists have to both propagate their work, but without it being destroyed by the AI in service of Capitalists.
posted by symbioid at 1:58 PM on March 22
posted by symbioid at 1:58 PM on March 22
Does the Chinese series have less gore, animal harm, and disturbing imagery?
I haven't started the Netflix series yet, umber vowel, so I can't compare, but the Chinese version was very PG except for the climactic Panama scene (ep 29, I think).
posted by doctornemo at 2:00 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
I haven't started the Netflix series yet, umber vowel, so I can't compare, but the Chinese version was very PG except for the climactic Panama scene (ep 29, I think).
posted by doctornemo at 2:00 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
that second book was like hitting the proverbial brick wall. I just couldn’t get a handle on it, no matter how much I tried.
Different translator and I've heard complaints about the results from people who know Chinese and English (I only know the latter, so can't comment authoritatively). I think the Wallfacer plot is great, but I kept getting tripped up on weirdly constructed paragraphs, plus a very sexist subplot involving our putative hero.
The finale, though - wow. I still remember exactly where I was when I read it. Holy hell. Dark forest indeed.
posted by doctornemo at 2:02 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
Different translator and I've heard complaints about the results from people who know Chinese and English (I only know the latter, so can't comment authoritatively). I think the Wallfacer plot is great, but I kept getting tripped up on weirdly constructed paragraphs, plus a very sexist subplot involving our putative hero.
The finale, though - wow. I still remember exactly where I was when I read it. Holy hell. Dark forest indeed.
posted by doctornemo at 2:02 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
It's not quite that I hated the first book - there were some interesting high-level conceptual ideas - but it was hard to get past the sexism and flat characterizations. I'd be open to seeing this if I knew they'd fixed those things.
posted by bwerdmuller at 2:11 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
posted by bwerdmuller at 2:11 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
my pet peeve with the book is that it's billed as "hard scifi" but insists that you can use quantum entanglement to transmit information faster-than-light, which you can't.
My pet peeve with the book is it's titled The Three-Body Problem when the central astrophysical system being referred to is an example of the four-body problem.
posted by The Tensor at 2:12 PM on March 22 [11 favorites]
My pet peeve with the book is it's titled The Three-Body Problem when the central astrophysical system being referred to is an example of the four-body problem.
posted by The Tensor at 2:12 PM on March 22 [11 favorites]
Every credit sequence on a “prestige” TV show is identical. 3 Body Problem is a copy of Westworld and is basically using the same music. Seriously, someone needs to shake things up because this HBO style of credits is just getting redunculous.
posted by misterpatrick at 2:14 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
posted by misterpatrick at 2:14 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
I'm another person who bounced off the first book, mostly because I found the writing style kind of dull and the characters poorly fleshed-out, but I also have friends who liked it a lot and have wanted to give it another shot. I guess getting the story through the series first might make me more inclined to give rereading it another go, assuming I like the story.
posted by whir at 2:14 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
posted by whir at 2:14 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
Not really knowing anything about recent Chinese history, I did not realise the cultural revolution was still in motion in 1976: That and the central action that kicks off the whole story which I won't spoiler here but that absolutely rocked my world (for being surprising! and deeply human).
Strongly agreed this was the best stuff in the first book - an inside perspective of the Cultural Revolution that western readers could appreciate, plus the very human nihilstic impulse behind that crucial decision. I would have preferred to skip the magic-dressed-as-physics stuff in the back half.
Second book is awesome because of the titular thought exercise, one of the most utterly bleak concepts ever penned. Could have done without the increasing sexism.
Third book was stomach-churning levels of dystopia, far worse than The Road, and the payoff at the end wasn’t worth the ride. Wish I’d stopped at two.
posted by Ryvar at 2:16 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
Strongly agreed this was the best stuff in the first book - an inside perspective of the Cultural Revolution that western readers could appreciate, plus the very human nihilstic impulse behind that crucial decision. I would have preferred to skip the magic-dressed-as-physics stuff in the back half.
Second book is awesome because of the titular thought exercise, one of the most utterly bleak concepts ever penned. Could have done without the increasing sexism.
Third book was stomach-churning levels of dystopia, far worse than The Road, and the payoff at the end wasn’t worth the ride. Wish I’d stopped at two.
posted by Ryvar at 2:16 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
I enjoyed the books, though I found the lovingly described physics a bit of a slog and I never felt the urge to reread them. I'm unhappy to hear they changed the setting, which I considered the most interesting part of the story.
My pet peeve with the book is it's titled The Three-Body Problem when the central astrophysical system being referred to is an example of the four-body problem.
My pet peeve is that the aliens have the amazing technology they have in the novel, but can't be arsed to just set up space habitats far enough from their planetary system to avoid the effects of the three suns but close enough to go in for resources.
posted by joannemerriam at 2:19 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
My pet peeve with the book is it's titled The Three-Body Problem when the central astrophysical system being referred to is an example of the four-body problem.
My pet peeve is that the aliens have the amazing technology they have in the novel, but can't be arsed to just set up space habitats far enough from their planetary system to avoid the effects of the three suns but close enough to go in for resources.
posted by joannemerriam at 2:19 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
The Cultural Revolution bits were the only thing that was interesting about the first book. I would happily have read a whole story about that, because I only knew the vaguest information about it, and it was bar far the liveliest part of the story. The video game was awful and as others have mentioned, most of the characters were cardboard. That's why I stopped reading.
A friend is both a native speaker of Mandarin (well, native reader; she speaks Shanghainese, which is like French to English, or so she says), and she says the problem does not lie in the translation.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:20 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
A friend is both a native speaker of Mandarin (well, native reader; she speaks Shanghainese, which is like French to English, or so she says), and she says the problem does not lie in the translation.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:20 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
Books 2&3 are on my tsundoku shelf...I struggled, but persevered, to finish the first book. I got about half way through the first episode on Netflix, but had to readjust my expectations...the historical fiction part of the book was the interesting part, so translating out the Chinese political history/culture in lieu of British scientists is going to require a bit of me "getting over it" before I continue.
posted by Chuffy at 2:21 PM on March 22
posted by Chuffy at 2:21 PM on March 22
The Chinese adaptation is *30 episodes long*
That's pretty restrained for a Chinese show!
posted by trig at 2:28 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
That's pretty restrained for a Chinese show!
posted by trig at 2:28 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
I'm always amazed hearing people's reactions to the books--I really liked them, they were international bestsellers, they've been adapted four hundred million times--and yet everyone seems to hate them? So weird. I've been champing at the bit for this Netflix version, but hearing that they've moved the action to the UK doesn't actually make any sense (especially for a team that traveled the world to make Game of Thrones?). Please, please let it be just as depressing as the books!!!
posted by mittens at 2:31 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
posted by mittens at 2:31 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
everyone seems to hate them
It might be this thread, or just MetaFilter's customary acidity. But the books sold well - which is a remarkable thing in the US, which doesn't like to read stuff from other countries, generally. The first book got a Hugo, albeit in a weird convention.
For me, I admire the trilogy for a bunch of reasons: deep dive into a series of sf ideas, an unusual take on one classic sf trope (alien invasion), a willingness to take a dark view of alien life to a well developed extent, and especially that it came from China and went after the Cultural Revolution (something many people seem eager to forget; ah, so many Little Red Books in that bookstore I worked in). I admire the sheer ambition and scope of the trilogy.
It has flaws, which others and I have already mentioned: odd prose in book 2, some sexism, arguable science (which is a staple of hard science fiction and always has been).
posted by doctornemo at 2:38 PM on March 22 [8 favorites]
It might be this thread, or just MetaFilter's customary acidity. But the books sold well - which is a remarkable thing in the US, which doesn't like to read stuff from other countries, generally. The first book got a Hugo, albeit in a weird convention.
For me, I admire the trilogy for a bunch of reasons: deep dive into a series of sf ideas, an unusual take on one classic sf trope (alien invasion), a willingness to take a dark view of alien life to a well developed extent, and especially that it came from China and went after the Cultural Revolution (something many people seem eager to forget; ah, so many Little Red Books in that bookstore I worked in). I admire the sheer ambition and scope of the trilogy.
It has flaws, which others and I have already mentioned: odd prose in book 2, some sexism, arguable science (which is a staple of hard science fiction and always has been).
posted by doctornemo at 2:38 PM on March 22 [8 favorites]
Ten minutes in and there are characters shown smoking. I want to like it but this really pisses me off.
posted by night_train at 2:42 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
posted by night_train at 2:42 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
FYI The Chinese version of the story is on Amazon Prime if you're in the US and it is called Three Body and is 30 ~45 minute episodes long.
posted by srboisvert at 2:44 PM on March 22 [11 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 2:44 PM on March 22 [11 favorites]
I prefer the Chinese version, at least so far. I like the way they're handling the "countdown" a lot better, for one.
posted by Don Pepino at 2:57 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 2:57 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
Chinese prose is different from English prose. I've not read a lot of Chinese works outside of select chapters of Dream of a Red Chamber, assorted short novellas (all assigned as part of a college course in Putonghua) but every text has had a very cerebral quality to it, almost as if you were reading a textbook description of fictional events, characters, thoughts, feelings, etc
some of the flourishes and readability in translations are added at the discretion of the translator - Murakami's translators, famously, were actually incredible writers who were able to consistently render a Beat-esque free verse quality to the writing. of the translations that I've read from Chinese SF&F like the collections compiled by Ken Liu, I get the feeling that Western readers will generally have a tough time with Chinese works unless they're already used to the kind of wooden prose that were common to earlier writers of SF&F
I think there's a ways to go for Chinese prose styles and it's an emerging community of dedicated fans. in so many ways China in its current iteration reminds me of the US in the early 80s - rising cultural nativism, moves on the population level to grow a knowledge economy, the ironing out of huge infrastructure projects, the cultural shift from rural to urban life, increasing access to different modes of communication, exposure to so many different forms of micro-cultures, unbelievable hope in technological solutions, and so on - and the fictional works that come out of it similarly remind me in both theme and prose of writers popular in the American 80s like Larry Niven, Ben Bova, etc
I think the next decade or so of Chinese SF&F will be incredible. stuff like this adaptation finding a wider market in the West will surely increase it's visibility at home, too - cultural exports are one thing that China is trying so hard and fails so much at in comparison to, say, Japanese manga/animes, K-Pop, and K-Dramas, so the more adoption, the more investment at home, the more money, the more authors and productions and etc
posted by paimapi at 3:05 PM on March 22 [10 favorites]
some of the flourishes and readability in translations are added at the discretion of the translator - Murakami's translators, famously, were actually incredible writers who were able to consistently render a Beat-esque free verse quality to the writing. of the translations that I've read from Chinese SF&F like the collections compiled by Ken Liu, I get the feeling that Western readers will generally have a tough time with Chinese works unless they're already used to the kind of wooden prose that were common to earlier writers of SF&F
I think there's a ways to go for Chinese prose styles and it's an emerging community of dedicated fans. in so many ways China in its current iteration reminds me of the US in the early 80s - rising cultural nativism, moves on the population level to grow a knowledge economy, the ironing out of huge infrastructure projects, the cultural shift from rural to urban life, increasing access to different modes of communication, exposure to so many different forms of micro-cultures, unbelievable hope in technological solutions, and so on - and the fictional works that come out of it similarly remind me in both theme and prose of writers popular in the American 80s like Larry Niven, Ben Bova, etc
I think the next decade or so of Chinese SF&F will be incredible. stuff like this adaptation finding a wider market in the West will surely increase it's visibility at home, too - cultural exports are one thing that China is trying so hard and fails so much at in comparison to, say, Japanese manga/animes, K-Pop, and K-Dramas, so the more adoption, the more investment at home, the more money, the more authors and productions and etc
posted by paimapi at 3:05 PM on March 22 [10 favorites]
what? this Netflix adaptation is not set in China? But the Cultural Revolution stuff is really key to the book!
This is like relocating Avatar to fucking Narnia. Do not want.
re: dryness of Chinese prose.
The 3BP translation really reminded me of old anglosphere science fiction -- dry and factual. The prose had a Benford vibe to me.
posted by Sauce Trough at 3:20 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
This is like relocating Avatar to fucking Narnia. Do not want.
re: dryness of Chinese prose.
The 3BP translation really reminded me of old anglosphere science fiction -- dry and factual. The prose had a Benford vibe to me.
posted by Sauce Trough at 3:20 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
The 1970's timeline takes place in China. The present-day timeline is in England. (So far - up to episode 4)
posted by umber vowel at 3:31 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
posted by umber vowel at 3:31 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
just wanted to drop in my perennial pet peeve/question about this book: If the Trisolarians' planet has 3 suns, wouldn't it be the four body problem? 3 suns plus the planet?
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:40 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:40 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
I immediately justified this to myself as the planet being of inconsequential mass relative to the stars.
posted by Acari at 4:13 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
posted by Acari at 4:13 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
We've already seen Trisol, remember. (My Three Suns.)
posted by SPrintF at 4:25 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 4:25 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
I liked the first book, which is a very carefully constructed puzzle box— a whole Chekhov's armory of devices that pay off later. The Chinese focus is neat, and Liu's pessimism makes a lot more sense given the Chinese experience of colonialism.
He does play pretty fast and loose with science. Alpha Centauri A and B range from 11 to 36 AU apart, 1 AU being the distance of the earth to the sun. Gravity is divided by r2, that is, it goes down very fast. It's likely that a planet could orbit A at 1 AU with high stability, certainly without the Velikovsky-style astronomical catastrophes in the book. And C is 13,000 AU out, and it's tiny, so won't have much effect. But Liu's setup makes for a good story.
posted by zompist at 4:32 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
He does play pretty fast and loose with science. Alpha Centauri A and B range from 11 to 36 AU apart, 1 AU being the distance of the earth to the sun. Gravity is divided by r2, that is, it goes down very fast. It's likely that a planet could orbit A at 1 AU with high stability, certainly without the Velikovsky-style astronomical catastrophes in the book. And C is 13,000 AU out, and it's tiny, so won't have much effect. But Liu's setup makes for a good story.
posted by zompist at 4:32 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
I immediately justified this to myself as the planet being of inconsequential mass relative to the stars.
But it's the trajectory of the planet, the fourth body, that's relevant to the story.
posted by The Tensor at 4:35 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
But it's the trajectory of the planet, the fourth body, that's relevant to the story.
posted by The Tensor at 4:35 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
Was anyone else planning on a FanFare post?
posted by sixswitch at 4:52 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
posted by sixswitch at 4:52 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
If the Trisolarians' planet has 3 suns, wouldn't it be the four body problem?
Outside of the novel, "Three body problem" is often used as a standin for the larger set of often-chaotic numerical solutions for n-body problems. I'd seen it loads of times before Liu wrote.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:01 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
Outside of the novel, "Three body problem" is often used as a standin for the larger set of often-chaotic numerical solutions for n-body problems. I'd seen it loads of times before Liu wrote.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:01 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
Just popping by to say that as an avid science fiction reader for over 40 years, for myself, this trilogy (the books, that is) was one of the most amazing stories in the genre I have ever read. The characters and quality of the writing and dialogue are not the strongest, admittedly, but instead it is the sheer scale of the exploration of a universe (and its cultural philosophy, too - the dark forest) that kept me just ... going. It almost felt as if the writer was working through sheer force of will to describe so many things so enormous in scale; and thus I felt obligated to accompany him through the whole story. And was grateful, in the end, for the journey.
I do understand why the books would hinder readers. They can get bogged down in side stories and exposition, but I encourage fans of the larger genre to continue, just for the scope and ideas. And despite being sure the Netflix series would totally blow, I have been surprised at how true to books they have stayed. At least in terms of major plot points, events, ideas and (most) characters. I had no idea how the books could be converted, but kudos for the job they have done, however flawed.
I would be honestly interested in how someone who had not read the books would see the series. It must be ... weird.
posted by buffalo at 5:11 PM on March 22 [11 favorites]
I do understand why the books would hinder readers. They can get bogged down in side stories and exposition, but I encourage fans of the larger genre to continue, just for the scope and ideas. And despite being sure the Netflix series would totally blow, I have been surprised at how true to books they have stayed. At least in terms of major plot points, events, ideas and (most) characters. I had no idea how the books could be converted, but kudos for the job they have done, however flawed.
I would be honestly interested in how someone who had not read the books would see the series. It must be ... weird.
posted by buffalo at 5:11 PM on March 22 [11 favorites]
For me, the sheer scale of the exploration of the universe and its cultural philosophy felt a bit flat because it reminded me a lot of the Cities in Flight novels by James Blish which explored a lot of the same things all the way back in the 1950s, and as far as I'm concerned did them better despite only having the scientific framework available in the 1950s.
I almost want to write something longer about the parallels, because they are a little uncanny.
Three Body Problem's use of the Cultural Revolution as a backdrop == They Shall Have Stars using McCarthyism and the Cold War
Death's End's sneak attacks by advanced alien civilizations == Earthman, Come Home having the Vegan Orbital Fort trying to attack Earth as a second strike retaliation for Earth destroying Vega
Death's End's exodus of human ships using lightspeed propulsion and civilizations becoming nomadic == A Life for the Stars having cities flee Earth using the spindizzy drive
Death's End's final era with the micro-universes disrupting the universe's rebirth == The Triumph of Time having Amalfi race against the Web of Hercules to determine the future of the next universe after the Big Crunch
posted by allegedly at 5:43 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
I almost want to write something longer about the parallels, because they are a little uncanny.
Three Body Problem's use of the Cultural Revolution as a backdrop == They Shall Have Stars using McCarthyism and the Cold War
Death's End's sneak attacks by advanced alien civilizations == Earthman, Come Home having the Vegan Orbital Fort trying to attack Earth as a second strike retaliation for Earth destroying Vega
Death's End's exodus of human ships using lightspeed propulsion and civilizations becoming nomadic == A Life for the Stars having cities flee Earth using the spindizzy drive
Death's End's final era with the micro-universes disrupting the universe's rebirth == The Triumph of Time having Amalfi race against the Web of Hercules to determine the future of the next universe after the Big Crunch
posted by allegedly at 5:43 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
Edited to add: mild (I think) spoilers for episodes 2-4.
I'm watching this and it's like playing a game of sci-fi popup video? Or something?
There are these mysterious headsets you use to play a compelling game you don't understand, to your detriment. It's Star Trek: The Next Generation, Season 5 episode 6: "The Game."
Someone at the mysterious organization mentions something about how the people playing the game are progressing, implying they're passing some kind of tests. To solve a real alien invasion related problem. It's Ender's Game!
We find out that the aliens don't understand fiction or lying, and suddenly it's Galaxy Quest.
"Surely you don't think Gilligan's Island—"
"Those poor people."
Even the guy living on the oil tanker with a thousand people in the middle of the ocean made me think of Snowcrash's Raft.
Perhaps the book and/or the 30-episode Chinese series do a better job not streamlining the story until it feels like a collection of familiar tropes? I'm enjoying it, but also finding it so easy and seamless that I can hardly imagine it's living up to the challenging novel I tried and failed to read some years ago.
posted by Well I never at 7:06 PM on March 22
I'm watching this and it's like playing a game of sci-fi popup video? Or something?
There are these mysterious headsets you use to play a compelling game you don't understand, to your detriment. It's Star Trek: The Next Generation, Season 5 episode 6: "The Game."
Someone at the mysterious organization mentions something about how the people playing the game are progressing, implying they're passing some kind of tests. To solve a real alien invasion related problem. It's Ender's Game!
We find out that the aliens don't understand fiction or lying, and suddenly it's Galaxy Quest.
"Surely you don't think Gilligan's Island—"
"Those poor people."
Even the guy living on the oil tanker with a thousand people in the middle of the ocean made me think of Snowcrash's Raft.
Perhaps the book and/or the 30-episode Chinese series do a better job not streamlining the story until it feels like a collection of familiar tropes? I'm enjoying it, but also finding it so easy and seamless that I can hardly imagine it's living up to the challenging novel I tried and failed to read some years ago.
posted by Well I never at 7:06 PM on March 22
the Vegan Orbital Fort trying to attack Earth
hahahaha
posted by sixswitch at 8:00 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
hahahaha
posted by sixswitch at 8:00 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
I'm gratified to make my way through the comments so far and find pretty much universal agreement that the characters in the books were flat.
I read the first book, found the plot and ideas fun enough, but the characters were so one-note, unbelievable and boring I didn't keep going. In the past, when I've heard people rave uncritically about T3BP I've thought "was it me? was the writing actually good?"
No, it wasn't, and people people know that, and they're into it anyway because they liked the plot and ideas. That's cool, different strokes.
posted by gurple at 10:12 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
I read the first book, found the plot and ideas fun enough, but the characters were so one-note, unbelievable and boring I didn't keep going. In the past, when I've heard people rave uncritically about T3BP I've thought "was it me? was the writing actually good?"
No, it wasn't, and people people know that, and they're into it anyway because they liked the plot and ideas. That's cool, different strokes.
posted by gurple at 10:12 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
Michael Crichton is like that for me in what I've read, flat characterizations with fun and interesting ideas.
Enjoyed the first book, with caveats as noted previously. I also was taken by the Cultural Revolution and overall non-western view.
The conversation about where Chinese syfy is at stylistically being similar to Western writing from the 80s is interesting as I felt similarly when reading it. Like it was something that had been on my shelf since jr. high that I'd bounced off of and was finally getting back around to.
posted by calamari kid at 11:17 PM on March 22
Enjoyed the first book, with caveats as noted previously. I also was taken by the Cultural Revolution and overall non-western view.
The conversation about where Chinese syfy is at stylistically being similar to Western writing from the 80s is interesting as I felt similarly when reading it. Like it was something that had been on my shelf since jr. high that I'd bounced off of and was finally getting back around to.
posted by calamari kid at 11:17 PM on March 22
I have felt guilty about T3BP sitting unfinished on my shelf for years. I even gave Invisible Planets a go to try and get into the right headspace for Chinese sci fi but nope. Now that I've watched this adaptation in full I feel unburdened of the guilt but newly frustrated that this doesn't feel like it was due the hype. Or is it a bad adaptation?
posted by Molesome at 1:43 AM on March 23
posted by Molesome at 1:43 AM on March 23
Agree the Liu is not the greatest at writing or character development. But then sci-fi has always been more about the ideas, and he stuffs it full of those.
FYI The Chinese version of the story is on Amazon Prime if you're in the US and it is called Three Body and is 30 ~45 minute episodes long.
posted by srboisvert
Also on YouTube.
posted by Pouteria at 3:24 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
FYI The Chinese version of the story is on Amazon Prime if you're in the US and it is called Three Body and is 30 ~45 minute episodes long.
posted by srboisvert
Also on YouTube.
posted by Pouteria at 3:24 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
I might watch the series. I read the first book, and while I found it interesting and unique, it was just so damn depressing; making mass suicides a center point of the plot doesn't make for breezy reading. And there must be something lost in translation to a degree, as the structure was a little strange in a way that I frankly can't recall now. I should give the novels another try, though.
posted by zardoz at 4:33 AM on March 23
posted by zardoz at 4:33 AM on March 23
I bounced off Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars series in the same way, so I think it's more of a high-concept SF problem than a Chinese author problem.
posted by rikschell at 4:57 AM on March 23 [4 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 4:57 AM on March 23 [4 favorites]
most of the characters were cardboardNot to spoil too much, but this comment becomes very funny and ironic later in the series.
posted by schmod at 7:57 AM on March 23 [11 favorites]
Thank you for the observations on Chinese literature, paimapi.
I've read some of the classics - Dream of the Red Chamber, Outlaws of the Marsh, Three Kingdoms - but only in English. There I enjoyed them immensely.
posted by doctornemo at 8:02 AM on March 23
I've read some of the classics - Dream of the Red Chamber, Outlaws of the Marsh, Three Kingdoms - but only in English. There I enjoyed them immensely.
posted by doctornemo at 8:02 AM on March 23
old anglosphere science fiction -- dry and factual. The prose had a Benford vibe to me.
Benford is old? (looks at the new gray hair which just sprouted)
posted by doctornemo at 8:03 AM on March 23
Benford is old? (looks at the new gray hair which just sprouted)
posted by doctornemo at 8:03 AM on March 23
I watched the Chinese series and I'm halfway through the US series. Thirty episodes was too long and eight episodes is far too abridged.
The Chinese series is faithful to the book, except in terms of taking the Ye Wenjie plot, softening it, and moving it from the beginning to the middle, which is a pretty major change. (Not as major as the decisions in the Netflix show, though, like giving it an injection from "Friends".)
I enjoyed 3BP as horror, or like a disaster movie. One way I'm ambivalent about it though is that it's also pretty much kinda a techno-fashy doomsday fantasy. I think it's fortunate that the people who should definitely not read 3BP are averse to reading books in general.
posted by fleacircus at 8:21 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
The Chinese series is faithful to the book, except in terms of taking the Ye Wenjie plot, softening it, and moving it from the beginning to the middle, which is a pretty major change. (Not as major as the decisions in the Netflix show, though, like giving it an injection from "Friends".)
I enjoyed 3BP as horror, or like a disaster movie. One way I'm ambivalent about it though is that it's also pretty much kinda a techno-fashy doomsday fantasy. I think it's fortunate that the people who should definitely not read 3BP are averse to reading books in general.
posted by fleacircus at 8:21 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
The Chinese series is faithful to the book, except in terms of taking the Ye Wenjie plot, softening it, and moving it from the beginning to the middle, which is a pretty major change.The English translation of the books moved the Ye Wenjie plot to the beginning. In the original (Chinese) novels, the Wang Miao plot comes first, and the Ye Wenjie plot is in the middle. So the Chinese TV series is faithful to the books here.
posted by mbrubeck at 8:29 AM on March 23 [6 favorites]
I'd never thought to consider the books pessimistic. But now, I can definitely see it.
Its an allegory. "Good" scifi/fantasy isn't necessarily normative, but provides a fresh perspective on current events, philosophy, culture, etc by changing the aesthetic: suspend disbelief just enough to be convinced of a new perspective. In this case, heavy topics: nuclear strategy*, Malthus, entropy. Hopefully this isn't a spoiler since its only an opinion that I'm sure not everyone agrees with: I felt a heaviness (perhaps "pessimism") until the optimism of the end.
*particularly from a non-US/Europe/Soviet-but-still-in-the-game perspective. My granddad described sitting on the beach of a neighboring island drinking a soda as he watched the shelling of Saipan during WWII. I often wonder what the posturing between the nuclear powers looks like to the rest of the world.
posted by rubatan at 8:37 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
Its an allegory. "Good" scifi/fantasy isn't necessarily normative, but provides a fresh perspective on current events, philosophy, culture, etc by changing the aesthetic: suspend disbelief just enough to be convinced of a new perspective. In this case, heavy topics: nuclear strategy*, Malthus, entropy. Hopefully this isn't a spoiler since its only an opinion that I'm sure not everyone agrees with: I felt a heaviness (perhaps "pessimism") until the optimism of the end.
*particularly from a non-US/Europe/Soviet-but-still-in-the-game perspective. My granddad described sitting on the beach of a neighboring island drinking a soda as he watched the shelling of Saipan during WWII. I often wonder what the posturing between the nuclear powers looks like to the rest of the world.
posted by rubatan at 8:37 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
the characters in the books were flat
Spoiler alert!
posted by SPrintF at 8:41 AM on March 23 [16 favorites]
Spoiler alert!
posted by SPrintF at 8:41 AM on March 23 [16 favorites]
I didn’t like it (only read first book) for the reasons that many people pointed out. As far as the ideas argument goes, it wasn’t super convincing. Knowing only the title of the subsequent book, once the fact of a conflict becomes aparent (which is very early), the nature of the ideas to be explored is pretty obvious, and nothing that we hadn’t seen in decades earlier explorations of the Fermi paradox. Once the central discovery in Red Coast occurs, that sealed it (failed seti + the thing she discovers = much tighter constraints, the second discovery = disastrous interpretation). The exploration of other humans’ response, which I would regard as the more interesting set of ideas, falls completely flat because of the poor character work and writing. A substantial amount of events are hand wavy magic, so I don’t know how anyone can characterize this as hard science fiction. The behavior of the antagonists is very strange given the title of the second book (there is no way that the conflict benefits them), the technology available, and what we know about extrasolar planets.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 9:09 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
posted by a robot made out of meat at 9:09 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
*I didn't say it explicitly: a work of anticolonialism esp w.r.t. technology as a leveler & power dynamics. I wonder how much confusion comes from trying to read anticolonial works through a colonial experience, and what that looks like when the world order is upset.
posted by rubatan at 9:17 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
posted by rubatan at 9:17 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
Quinn's ideas has many Three Body Problem vlogs, as awell as an interesting english langauge sci-fi book based upon the same Dark Forest primise, also articulated by Carl Sagan. I think the The Killing Star.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:21 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 9:21 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
I tried to watch the Tenicent version but the writing (or at least the English translation) was just really bad. I'll give the Netflix version a chance.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:23 AM on March 23
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:23 AM on March 23
Having binged half of the Netflix series, I watched 1.5 episodes of the Chinese series on Peacock. I like them both in different ways.
The poorly translated subtitles were a bit of a challenge at times on the Chinese version. Wang and Ding are talking about the woman who recently died, and for the life of me I couldn’t figure out which of them, or both? had been romantically involved with her. And were they married for 8 years or just recently engaged? A bit of a head-scratcher.
If you make it a few episodes into the Netflix series and think “at least it’s not as gory now”… it will be even worse later.
The Game of Thrones team brings plenty of eye-rolling stuff, but I did sit and watch 5 episodes within 24 hours, so it must not be too bad.
posted by umber vowel at 9:56 AM on March 23
The poorly translated subtitles were a bit of a challenge at times on the Chinese version. Wang and Ding are talking about the woman who recently died, and for the life of me I couldn’t figure out which of them, or both? had been romantically involved with her. And were they married for 8 years or just recently engaged? A bit of a head-scratcher.
If you make it a few episodes into the Netflix series and think “at least it’s not as gory now”… it will be even worse later.
The Game of Thrones team brings plenty of eye-rolling stuff, but I did sit and watch 5 episodes within 24 hours, so it must not be too bad.
posted by umber vowel at 9:56 AM on March 23
In the original (Chinese) novels, the Wang Miao plot comes first, and the Ye Wenjie plot is in the middle. So the Chinese TV series is faithful to the books here.
I'd heard this, but I also heard that it was done that way to fake out the censors. So it's at least more authentically Chinese, but I don't know which one is imbued with more authorial intent.
posted by fleacircus at 11:37 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
I'd heard this, but I also heard that it was done that way to fake out the censors. So it's at least more authentically Chinese, but I don't know which one is imbued with more authorial intent.
posted by fleacircus at 11:37 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
“Three Body Problem Netflix (Season 1) Review + Book Comparison”—Quinn's Ideas, 23 March 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 12:31 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
posted by ob1quixote at 12:31 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
Thanks for that last link, it was especially interesting to get a window into the differences between this version and the Chinese adaptation.
posted by rikschell at 2:23 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
posted by rikschell at 2:23 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
I finished the Netflix series, didn't love it but was intrigued by the story, and by our discussion here of the novel. Now I'm a couple of episodes into the Chinese adaptation available on Amazon Prime, which I would not otherwise have known about it.
I'm glad I watched the Netflix series. It was kind of like a Cliff's Notes version. But I'm really enjoying the slower pace of the Chinese adaption, "Three Body." We've been closely following a character who [spoiler alert] only shows up in the Netflix series as a dead scientist with a countdown written on his walls. I'm also enjoying the China setting. I didn't fully realize that moving the characters to London was such a cultural erasure—I thought that, as with a fair amount of earth-based sci fi these days, we'd be following characters in various parts of the world, and the Chinese parts of the story were being de-emphasized. But no. The people are in China.
I'm also appreciating the time Three Body is taking to talk about the science. In the Netflix series, they said "physics didn't exist" or some equivalent, but didn't really explain why scientists were coming to believe that. It bugged me. (no pun intended) I've enjoyed the scientific discussions as well.
posted by Well I never at 5:31 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
I'm glad I watched the Netflix series. It was kind of like a Cliff's Notes version. But I'm really enjoying the slower pace of the Chinese adaption, "Three Body." We've been closely following a character who [spoiler alert] only shows up in the Netflix series as a dead scientist with a countdown written on his walls. I'm also enjoying the China setting. I didn't fully realize that moving the characters to London was such a cultural erasure—I thought that, as with a fair amount of earth-based sci fi these days, we'd be following characters in various parts of the world, and the Chinese parts of the story were being de-emphasized. But no. The people are in China.
I'm also appreciating the time Three Body is taking to talk about the science. In the Netflix series, they said "physics didn't exist" or some equivalent, but didn't really explain why scientists were coming to believe that. It bugged me. (no pun intended) I've enjoyed the scientific discussions as well.
posted by Well I never at 5:31 PM on March 23 [2 favorites]
We've been closely following a character who [spoiler alert] only shows up in the Netflix series as a dead scientist with a countdown written on his walls
I think Wang Miao was turned into Augustina "Auggie" Salazar in the Netflix series.
posted by umber vowel at 8:16 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
I think Wang Miao was turned into Augustina "Auggie" Salazar in the Netflix series.
posted by umber vowel at 8:16 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
I don't have access to Netflix, so I can only go off of what what I've seen in the links above. My intuition is that this story was about Chinese people and changing that for Anglophone television will not move the needle on the ratings enough to make it worth the change.
Cross-posting this from the discussion of the trailer in January:
“The ‘Three-Body Problem’, the Imperative of Survival, and the Misogyny of Reactionary Rhetoric,” Chenchen Zhang , Made in China Journal, 11 December 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 9:01 PM on March 23 [4 favorites]
Cross-posting this from the discussion of the trailer in January:
“The ‘Three-Body Problem’, the Imperative of Survival, and the Misogyny of Reactionary Rhetoric,” Chenchen Zhang , Made in China Journal, 11 December 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 9:01 PM on March 23 [4 favorites]
I think Wang Miao was turned into Augustina "Auggie" Salazar in the Netflix series.
Yes! And maybe there's another character who writes the countdown on a whiteboard or walls, but that element of Wang Miao's experience was in a brief dead-scientist scene in the Netflix version. I guess I don't know for sure that they gave his story to Auggie and the wall-countdown to another scientist we never see alive. I will keep watching to find out.
I like Wang Miao better than I liked Auggie, and I like that he's not part of some tight "Chosen Five" group. I'm looking forward to meeting all the other scientists.
I loved the pool game analogy for "what if no physics" as well.
posted by Well I never at 6:29 AM on March 24
Yes! And maybe there's another character who writes the countdown on a whiteboard or walls, but that element of Wang Miao's experience was in a brief dead-scientist scene in the Netflix version. I guess I don't know for sure that they gave his story to Auggie and the wall-countdown to another scientist we never see alive. I will keep watching to find out.
I like Wang Miao better than I liked Auggie, and I like that he's not part of some tight "Chosen Five" group. I'm looking forward to meeting all the other scientists.
I loved the pool game analogy for "what if no physics" as well.
posted by Well I never at 6:29 AM on March 24
I've been so bemused by how big this book series has become. I tried twice, quite earnestly, to read the first book, but it seemed to drag interminably for me. I felt the plot was barely existent. I made it almost three quarters of the way through and there was no mention of actual aliens at all, that I remember. It just seemed so meandering. There didn't seem to be any interesting concepts whatsoever. The only thing I really remember is something about dehydrated people which went precisely nowhere. It didn't seem like there was one single plot point that happened in the whole book, apart from the Cultural revolution murders at the start, but they didn't seem connected to the rest of the book. Maybe I'm just demanding too much from sci-fi books? But I did around the same time read Dawn by Octavia Butler and found it extremely enjoyable and utterly engrossing. So it can't just be me can it?
And there wasn't even particularly much discussion about the physics of the three-body problem, was there? I don't remember any characters talking about it or discussing solutions to it.
I am prepared to admit it's just me, because of how popular the series is. I suppose it's just a matter of taste, like everything else. (For reference I also found the Game of Thrones TV show to be just insanely, mind-meltingly mediocre. So it's definitely just me).
posted by mokey at 7:04 AM on March 24 [3 favorites]
And there wasn't even particularly much discussion about the physics of the three-body problem, was there? I don't remember any characters talking about it or discussing solutions to it.
I am prepared to admit it's just me, because of how popular the series is. I suppose it's just a matter of taste, like everything else. (For reference I also found the Game of Thrones TV show to be just insanely, mind-meltingly mediocre. So it's definitely just me).
posted by mokey at 7:04 AM on March 24 [3 favorites]
mokey, I've also bounced off the book more than once. I'm finding the Chinese adaptation much more enjoyable. Whether it's 30 episodes enjoyable remains to be seen.
posted by Well I never at 9:19 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
posted by Well I never at 9:19 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
I've never read the books or tried the Chinese series, so I'm coming to this cold.
For what it's worth, I loved episodes 1 and 2 of the Netflix series, thought 3 and 4 were OK, and hated 6 and 7. I'm still hoping the final episode will redeem the series as a whole when I watch it tonight, but I can't say I'm optimistic.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:31 AM on March 24
For what it's worth, I loved episodes 1 and 2 of the Netflix series, thought 3 and 4 were OK, and hated 6 and 7. I'm still hoping the final episode will redeem the series as a whole when I watch it tonight, but I can't say I'm optimistic.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:31 AM on March 24
I read the book specifically to get into the mind of someone who could make the comments Cixin Liu did about the repression of the Uighurs.
And one thing I noticed in the book is that nobody is particularly brave. His depiction of the events of the Cultural Revolution struck me as a projection of his own all-too-human cowardice onto his characters. So in many ways I was drawn to the book for the same reasons many of you are finding it repellent. I needed to get into his mind because I need an insight into what's going on in the world around me.
And I'm particularly fascinated with how it's treated in the Chinese adaptation. To appease the censors, the struggle sessions are omitted entirely. But you'll notice that every time there's gung-ho socialist music playing in the background, the characters are miserable. It's an example of how today's CCP wants to receive critique from artists and the populace, but in ways and extents they can handle and respond to. Kind of a "flatten the curve" approach to critiques they want to answer but not at a pace that would threaten their control of China.
posted by ocschwar at 5:46 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
And one thing I noticed in the book is that nobody is particularly brave. His depiction of the events of the Cultural Revolution struck me as a projection of his own all-too-human cowardice onto his characters. So in many ways I was drawn to the book for the same reasons many of you are finding it repellent. I needed to get into his mind because I need an insight into what's going on in the world around me.
And I'm particularly fascinated with how it's treated in the Chinese adaptation. To appease the censors, the struggle sessions are omitted entirely. But you'll notice that every time there's gung-ho socialist music playing in the background, the characters are miserable. It's an example of how today's CCP wants to receive critique from artists and the populace, but in ways and extents they can handle and respond to. Kind of a "flatten the curve" approach to critiques they want to answer but not at a pace that would threaten their control of China.
posted by ocschwar at 5:46 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]
“Ultimate Guide to Three Body Problem” [4:32:28]—Quinn's Ideas, 19 March 2024
P.S. I realize this is longer than 95% of all movies ever released, but Quinn gives the gist of the series in the first 20 minutes.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:36 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
P.S. I realize this is longer than 95% of all movies ever released, but Quinn gives the gist of the series in the first 20 minutes.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:36 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
who could make the comments Cixin Liu did about the repression of the Uighurs
Ah, geez. I think I'd heard about that but forgotten.
posted by trig at 8:49 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Ah, geez. I think I'd heard about that but forgotten.
posted by trig at 8:49 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
I hope this is not out of line to say, but I really hate the "dark forest" nonsense. It essentially legitimizes genocide. On the basis that some group may someday be a threat it is not only acceptable, but inescapably necessary to exterminate them. Any rational life, no matter how varied (presumably including us) will come to the same conclusion every time.
It is an fine enough basis for a horror story, if you want some tentacled ghoulies out there eating up civilizations. But as an actual idea about the real universe, it represents an utter moral bankruptcy and carte blanche for any action in the furtherence of empire. After all, if you balk, eventually they will come to the Only Conclusion and murder you.
Like the "great filter", it is a supposedly sobre idea born out of the desire to avoid the conclusion that genuinely scares most sci-fi fans; that there is no magical extension of colonialism coming. There will not always be unlimited technological growth and endless frontiers to conquer. That we might actually have to live together on the world we've got.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:34 AM on March 25 [12 favorites]
It is an fine enough basis for a horror story, if you want some tentacled ghoulies out there eating up civilizations. But as an actual idea about the real universe, it represents an utter moral bankruptcy and carte blanche for any action in the furtherence of empire. After all, if you balk, eventually they will come to the Only Conclusion and murder you.
Like the "great filter", it is a supposedly sobre idea born out of the desire to avoid the conclusion that genuinely scares most sci-fi fans; that there is no magical extension of colonialism coming. There will not always be unlimited technological growth and endless frontiers to conquer. That we might actually have to live together on the world we've got.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:34 AM on March 25 [12 favorites]
Yes, we live in a brief fossil fuels driven burst of science & technology, and scalled up colonialism, etractivism, trade, or whatever you like calling it, which made everybody beleive silly aphysical things like limitless growth.
It's true the dark forest provides a poor great filter. There is not enough energy to settle the galaxy, so even if you managed to settle several planets on several stars then you'd still never make it too far. Where is everybody? Just not nearby, nor will they ever be.
An extra great filter would simply be that unsustainable societies go extinct, and sustainable societies have their own problems.
I do like attmpts to reify existential horror though. It's fun in ways missed by Lovecraft.
I enjoyed Cixin Liu's perspective upon 20th century Chinese history. We shoulde expect a much higher precentage of strong sci-fi comes from China, btw.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:56 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
It's true the dark forest provides a poor great filter. There is not enough energy to settle the galaxy, so even if you managed to settle several planets on several stars then you'd still never make it too far. Where is everybody? Just not nearby, nor will they ever be.
An extra great filter would simply be that unsustainable societies go extinct, and sustainable societies have their own problems.
I do like attmpts to reify existential horror though. It's fun in ways missed by Lovecraft.
I enjoyed Cixin Liu's perspective upon 20th century Chinese history. We shoulde expect a much higher precentage of strong sci-fi comes from China, btw.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:56 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
It essentially legitimizes genocide. On the basis that some group may someday be a threat it is not only acceptable, but inescapably necessary to exterminate them. Any rational life, no matter how varied (presumably including us) will come to the same conclusion every time.
The New Yorker article where he's quoted on China's treatment of Uighurs has him going from "Would you rather that they be hacking away at bodies at train stations and schools in terrorist attacks?” to “Here’s the truth: if you were to become the President of China tomorrow, you would find that you had no other choice than to do exactly as he has done”.
posted by trig at 10:27 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
The New Yorker article where he's quoted on China's treatment of Uighurs has him going from "Would you rather that they be hacking away at bodies at train stations and schools in terrorist attacks?” to “Here’s the truth: if you were to become the President of China tomorrow, you would find that you had no other choice than to do exactly as he has done”.
posted by trig at 10:27 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
It's an interesting conversation:
CL: “Humans must adjust their habits to accommodate changing circumstances.”
CL: “If China were to transform into a democracy, it would be hell on earth.” “I would evacuate tomorrow, to the United States or Europe or—I don’t know.”
JF: The irony that the countries he was proposing were democracies seemed to escape his notice.
CL: “Here’s the truth: if you were to become the President of China tomorrow, you would find that you had no other choice than to do exactly as he has done.”
JF: It was an opinion entirely consistent with his systems-level view of human societies, just as mine reflected a belief in democracy and individualism as principles to be upheld regardless of outcomes.
Ironically Jiayang Fan's first statement misses the observation she makes in her second statement. Liu Cixin isn't obviously saying he'd run away from a newly democratic China to an established democracy, but that he'd run away to a relatively unpopulated place, where democracy is not a problem.
Americans have created many failed democracies too, especially where they want the resources, like say Russia, but they're not discussing that. I'd think both would envision China making a more competent effort towards democratic transition.
Just a few good quotes:
JF: No one is more aware than Liu of the connection between the ambitions of sci-fi and the tendency of Chinese history to eclipse the individual.
JF: Lu hoped that incorporating scientific thought into popular fiction could help remedy “intellectual poverty” and provide a means of “leading the Chinese masses on the way to progress.”
CL: “It’s not hard to read parallels between the Trisolarans and imperialist designs on China, driven by hunger for resources and fear of being wiped out,”
JF: August Cole .. told me that, for him, Liu’s work was crucial to understanding contemporary China, “because it synthesizes multiple angles of looking at the country, from the anthropological to the political to the social.”
posted by jeffburdges at 6:56 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
CL: “Humans must adjust their habits to accommodate changing circumstances.”
CL: “If China were to transform into a democracy, it would be hell on earth.” “I would evacuate tomorrow, to the United States or Europe or—I don’t know.”
JF: The irony that the countries he was proposing were democracies seemed to escape his notice.
CL: “Here’s the truth: if you were to become the President of China tomorrow, you would find that you had no other choice than to do exactly as he has done.”
JF: It was an opinion entirely consistent with his systems-level view of human societies, just as mine reflected a belief in democracy and individualism as principles to be upheld regardless of outcomes.
Ironically Jiayang Fan's first statement misses the observation she makes in her second statement. Liu Cixin isn't obviously saying he'd run away from a newly democratic China to an established democracy, but that he'd run away to a relatively unpopulated place, where democracy is not a problem.
Americans have created many failed democracies too, especially where they want the resources, like say Russia, but they're not discussing that. I'd think both would envision China making a more competent effort towards democratic transition.
Just a few good quotes:
JF: No one is more aware than Liu of the connection between the ambitions of sci-fi and the tendency of Chinese history to eclipse the individual.
JF: Lu hoped that incorporating scientific thought into popular fiction could help remedy “intellectual poverty” and provide a means of “leading the Chinese masses on the way to progress.”
CL: “It’s not hard to read parallels between the Trisolarans and imperialist designs on China, driven by hunger for resources and fear of being wiped out,”
JF: August Cole .. told me that, for him, Liu’s work was crucial to understanding contemporary China, “because it synthesizes multiple angles of looking at the country, from the anthropological to the political to the social.”
posted by jeffburdges at 6:56 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
CL: “If China were to transform into a democracy, it would be hell on earth.” “I would evacuate tomorrow, to the United States or Europe or—I don’t know.”
He's paying lip service to the concept of "Chinese characteristics." The idea that only the CCP can govern the Chinese people because reasons. He's doing it out of cowardice. Taiwan transformed into a democracy. Nothing happened. Chinese Americans have moved en masse to various towns in the the US, and each time the same thing happened: nothing. He knows this full well.
This is what people do with the CCP breathing down their necks. He's a coward. Not that I'd do better in his shoes.
posted by ocschwar at 7:10 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
He's paying lip service to the concept of "Chinese characteristics." The idea that only the CCP can govern the Chinese people because reasons. He's doing it out of cowardice. Taiwan transformed into a democracy. Nothing happened. Chinese Americans have moved en masse to various towns in the the US, and each time the same thing happened: nothing. He knows this full well.
This is what people do with the CCP breathing down their necks. He's a coward. Not that I'd do better in his shoes.
posted by ocschwar at 7:10 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Not that I'd do better in his shoes.
posted by ocschwar
Indeed. How long would MeFi last in China/Russia/Iran/Saudi Arabia/Myanmar/etc?
It can be dangerous enough to speak freely in liberal democracies with robust constitutional protections, let alone in regimes where you do run the very real risk of actual violent repression, including torture and death.
To paraphrase Mike Tyson: Everybody is brave until they get punched in the mouth.
posted by Pouteria at 7:34 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
posted by ocschwar
Indeed. How long would MeFi last in China/Russia/Iran/Saudi Arabia/Myanmar/etc?
It can be dangerous enough to speak freely in liberal democracies with robust constitutional protections, let alone in regimes where you do run the very real risk of actual violent repression, including torture and death.
To paraphrase Mike Tyson: Everybody is brave until they get punched in the mouth.
posted by Pouteria at 7:34 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
Yes somewhat, which the interview discusses, alongside Stanisław Lem.
It's definitely both the CCP and his own views though. It's likely Liu fears the “intellectual poverty” which he hopes sci-fi improves. American & British own leadership does not exactly inspire confidence, think Bush v2, Trump, Brexit, etc.
I'd guess Liu would claim a democratic China could do worse. It's also possible he fears corruption, ala Italy but worse. The CCP has actually executed 14 billionaires, mostly corruption, but sometimes buisnessmen get executed for say toxic baby milk.
Avoiding executions of rick people is one of the US tactics for trying convince China to become more democratic in a US friendly way
Anyways, I do think Liu does not fully consider the example of India when making these statements.
It's also likely Liu does not understand the full scope of democratic systems though. You could easily argue China would fare better well under mild sortition: Imagine the existing CCP rule, but with requirements that most policy must pass a deliberative process, with voters being randomly selected Chinese citizens. It'd cost the CCP little in policy choices, but they'd have to present their arguments in a more laymen friendly fashion.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:45 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
It's definitely both the CCP and his own views though. It's likely Liu fears the “intellectual poverty” which he hopes sci-fi improves. American & British own leadership does not exactly inspire confidence, think Bush v2, Trump, Brexit, etc.
I'd guess Liu would claim a democratic China could do worse. It's also possible he fears corruption, ala Italy but worse. The CCP has actually executed 14 billionaires, mostly corruption, but sometimes buisnessmen get executed for say toxic baby milk.
Avoiding executions of rick people is one of the US tactics for trying convince China to become more democratic in a US friendly way
Anyways, I do think Liu does not fully consider the example of India when making these statements.
It's also likely Liu does not understand the full scope of democratic systems though. You could easily argue China would fare better well under mild sortition: Imagine the existing CCP rule, but with requirements that most policy must pass a deliberative process, with voters being randomly selected Chinese citizens. It'd cost the CCP little in policy choices, but they'd have to present their arguments in a more laymen friendly fashion.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:45 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Islamic states could do well under sortition too, likely other religious states like Israel. Imagine a regular representative democracy, except all legislation must pass through some deliberative branch, which uses randomly selected juries. As long as the population was mostly religious, then the Imams would not require much official power, only the power to present arguments during the the deliberative phase. In practice, this gives them a powerful veto, but only so long as they keep the beliefs of themselves and the population in line, and one that requires layman friendly explinations.
The US dislikes advanced democracy in the states it exploits of course, so no sortition or proportional representation there. Just way too much risk the population wants a higher price for their oil.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:49 AM on March 26
The US dislikes advanced democracy in the states it exploits of course, so no sortition or proportional representation there. Just way too much risk the population wants a higher price for their oil.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:49 AM on March 26
“Three Body Problem (ULTRA DEEP DIVE) Netflix Vs Book Comparison” [1:55:10]—Quinn's Ideas, 25 March 2024
P.S. In the first 10 minutes Quinn goes over which characters in the Netflix series are which from the books, which I found quite helpful.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:49 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
P.S. In the first 10 minutes Quinn goes over which characters in the Netflix series are which from the books, which I found quite helpful.
posted by ob1quixote at 10:49 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
Cross-posting this from the discussion of the trailer in January
Thank you. There's always been something that has really bothered me about The 3 Body problem, and that discussion helped to explain why I feel so put off by it.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:59 AM on March 28 [3 favorites]
Thank you. There's always been something that has really bothered me about The 3 Body problem, and that discussion helped to explain why I feel so put off by it.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:59 AM on March 28 [3 favorites]
it's also pretty much kinda a techno-fashy doomsday fantasy.
After watching the first season, I have settled on "Libertarian Genocide Porn".
Every collectivist effort is a dismal failure, comradery is repeatedly and murderously extinguished by greed, billionaire-fueled progress is stifled by antiwealth animosity resulting in the end of the human race.
One could hope it's a satirical indictment of such ideology like Starship Troopers, but with the sexism mixed in it's more likely to be genuine Edgelord Fantasy.
Firefly/Serenity was widely loved, but after a second look, a third look, some metoo disclosure and the subsequent global rise of neo-fascism, a lot of folks find it problematic.
posted by CynicalKnight at 10:48 AM on March 30
After watching the first season, I have settled on "Libertarian Genocide Porn".
Every collectivist effort is a dismal failure, comradery is repeatedly and murderously extinguished by greed, billionaire-fueled progress is stifled by antiwealth animosity resulting in the end of the human race.
One could hope it's a satirical indictment of such ideology like Starship Troopers, but with the sexism mixed in it's more likely to be genuine Edgelord Fantasy.
Firefly/Serenity was widely loved, but after a second look, a third look, some metoo disclosure and the subsequent global rise of neo-fascism, a lot of folks find it problematic.
posted by CynicalKnight at 10:48 AM on March 30
Firefly gets poor marks for Asian cultural appropriation without representation, insulting sex workers, and taking on a badly thought-out allegory of Lost Cause ideology that was much less toxic in-universe than the metaphor made it seem. And of course Joss Whedon and Adam Baldwin are rats. But I was pleasantly surprised on my last rewatch how not bad it was. YMMV
posted by rikschell at 4:42 PM on April 1
posted by rikschell at 4:42 PM on April 1
“The 3 Body Problem, Problem” [2:04:13]—Science Fiction with Damien Walter, 09 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 10:01 AM on April 15
posted by ob1quixote at 10:01 AM on April 15
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