NYC Chicken Shop Replaces Cashier With Woman in Philippines On Zoom
April 9, 2024 7:00 AM Subscribe
The cashier at Sansan Chicken East Village in NYC is a woman from the Philippines who logs on via Zoom. A photo of this odd arrangement went viral on Twitter this weekend via a post by Brett Goldstein.
A healthy fast food chain here in Canada tried the same in 2022. It didn't stick and they gave up last year.
It's such a bad look but also just another step down the slippery slope of outsourcing. I think the big difference is that it's visible. Calling a local business and instead being routed to an overseas call centre still involves the disconnect of speaking with someone over the phone. But a cashier is supposed to be standing right in front of you. I hope this makes people think more about outsourcing in general
posted by thecjm at 7:10 AM on April 9 [16 favorites]
It's such a bad look but also just another step down the slippery slope of outsourcing. I think the big difference is that it's visible. Calling a local business and instead being routed to an overseas call centre still involves the disconnect of speaking with someone over the phone. But a cashier is supposed to be standing right in front of you. I hope this makes people think more about outsourcing in general
posted by thecjm at 7:10 AM on April 9 [16 favorites]
Seems bad, man.
posted by Frowner at 7:10 AM on April 9 [12 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 7:10 AM on April 9 [12 favorites]
This was also the secret to Amazon’s “just walk out” shops.
posted by Selena777 at 7:17 AM on April 9 [15 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 7:17 AM on April 9 [15 favorites]
Fast food drive-throughs have been (at least) experimenting with tele-present order-takers for some years, but as far as I know it is not yet the norm. Not in my neighborhood, at least.
In fact, the last fast-food place to set up shop in my suburb (Chick-Fil-A) thoroughly abandoned that paradigm of machine-mediated ordering / paying, putting live human beings out in the road to take your order and your payment face-to-face. (Which looks to me like a terrible job.)
Maybe there are good reasons this remote-worker stuff hasn't caught on as much as capital wants it to, in spite of the state of networks and other technology making it look plausible for about a generation now.
posted by Western Infidels at 7:18 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
In fact, the last fast-food place to set up shop in my suburb (Chick-Fil-A) thoroughly abandoned that paradigm of machine-mediated ordering / paying, putting live human beings out in the road to take your order and your payment face-to-face. (Which looks to me like a terrible job.)
Maybe there are good reasons this remote-worker stuff hasn't caught on as much as capital wants it to, in spite of the state of networks and other technology making it look plausible for about a generation now.
posted by Western Infidels at 7:18 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
I recognize that this is a very dystopian implementation, but I wonder if the dystopian part is the outsourcing and would it be different if it were a local college kid who was telecommuting?
I have this person who has been cutting my hair for the last 20 years. It's one of the best commercial relationships that I have had. She's, like, five or six years older than me -- been in the same music and arts scene so our haircut appointments are these monthly opportunities to gossip, trade music and movie recommendations, and share stories of what we did last weekend or Back In The Day. I've seen her through one parent death and three relationships, as she has herself styled my hair to impress four different partners, and a half dozen job interviews, and the various stages of life you go through in 20 years. We're tight. The receptionist at her salon has been there for more than 15 years, and she also knows my routine and when I like to come in.
During COVID, they did their own version of mitigation where the receptionist started working from home and they would drastically cut down on the number of people who would be in salon. Usually it was just me and my stylist, wearing masks the entire time, and we'd be in and out with the cut. Payment moved to Venmo. I would call the receptionist to make my next appointment. And, they've just kind of kept that arrangement even after isolation ended, because there's still COVID in the air, and the receptionist likes working from home. She's probably working multiple gigs even and that's fine.
I mean, like, I work in tech and if I can continue to work from home because it's convenient and easy for me, why shouldn't that option be available to other people who are in jobs that don't require physical presence? Would I be disappointed if they fired their receptionist and replaced them with someone in Argentina? Totally. But would I ever insist that the receptionist come back into the salon and be someone that I talk to face-to-face? Nope. I'd rather that they choose to do that.
posted by bl1nk at 7:22 AM on April 9 [25 favorites]
I have this person who has been cutting my hair for the last 20 years. It's one of the best commercial relationships that I have had. She's, like, five or six years older than me -- been in the same music and arts scene so our haircut appointments are these monthly opportunities to gossip, trade music and movie recommendations, and share stories of what we did last weekend or Back In The Day. I've seen her through one parent death and three relationships, as she has herself styled my hair to impress four different partners, and a half dozen job interviews, and the various stages of life you go through in 20 years. We're tight. The receptionist at her salon has been there for more than 15 years, and she also knows my routine and when I like to come in.
During COVID, they did their own version of mitigation where the receptionist started working from home and they would drastically cut down on the number of people who would be in salon. Usually it was just me and my stylist, wearing masks the entire time, and we'd be in and out with the cut. Payment moved to Venmo. I would call the receptionist to make my next appointment. And, they've just kind of kept that arrangement even after isolation ended, because there's still COVID in the air, and the receptionist likes working from home. She's probably working multiple gigs even and that's fine.
I mean, like, I work in tech and if I can continue to work from home because it's convenient and easy for me, why shouldn't that option be available to other people who are in jobs that don't require physical presence? Would I be disappointed if they fired their receptionist and replaced them with someone in Argentina? Totally. But would I ever insist that the receptionist come back into the salon and be someone that I talk to face-to-face? Nope. I'd rather that they choose to do that.
posted by bl1nk at 7:22 AM on April 9 [25 favorites]
I mean, at least put the person behind the curtain and pretend there's a wizard. Chrissakes.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:25 AM on April 9 [44 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:25 AM on April 9 [44 favorites]
"You're very clever, young man, very clever. But it's Mechanical Turk all the way down!"
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:30 AM on April 9 [5 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:30 AM on April 9 [5 favorites]
We are unable to be cheerful that someone got a good job that pays well in her context because we don’t know her.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:40 AM on April 9 [11 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:40 AM on April 9 [11 favorites]
This was also the secret to Amazon’s “just walk out” shops.
Anyone care to bet that this is how Tesla's autopilot system works? Some poor guy in India is trying to drive your car by remote control.
posted by jabah at 7:41 AM on April 9 [43 favorites]
Anyone care to bet that this is how Tesla's autopilot system works? Some poor guy in India is trying to drive your car by remote control.
posted by jabah at 7:41 AM on April 9 [43 favorites]
someone got a good job that pays well in her context
You do know that trickle down economics has been resoundingly bunked many times over?
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:43 AM on April 9 [15 favorites]
You do know that trickle down economics has been resoundingly bunked many times over?
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:43 AM on April 9 [15 favorites]
jabah: "Anyone care to bet that this is how Tesla's autopilot system works? Some poor guy in India is trying to drive your car by remote control."
"Answer quickly -- our self-driving car is almost at the intersection."
posted by Rhaomi at 7:44 AM on April 9 [4 favorites]
"Answer quickly -- our self-driving car is almost at the intersection."
posted by Rhaomi at 7:44 AM on April 9 [4 favorites]
You do know that trickle down economics has been resoundingly bunked many times over?
That's not what trickle down economics is.
posted by Galvanic at 7:46 AM on April 9 [12 favorites]
That's not what trickle down economics is.
posted by Galvanic at 7:46 AM on April 9 [12 favorites]
Globalization and labor off shoring absolutely is trickle down economics.
And I'm Indian, you really don't have to splain to me how this works.
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:56 AM on April 9 [24 favorites]
And I'm Indian, you really don't have to splain to me how this works.
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:56 AM on April 9 [24 favorites]
"overall, trade has generated unprecedented prosperity, helping to lift some 1 billion people out of poverty in recent decades"
If it works for this shop, great. But that woman should also have the opportunity to move from the Philippines to the U.S. and work there in person.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:57 AM on April 9 [4 favorites]
If it works for this shop, great. But that woman should also have the opportunity to move from the Philippines to the U.S. and work there in person.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:57 AM on April 9 [4 favorites]
We are unable to be cheerful that someone got a good job that pays well in her context because we don’t know her.
Nice try but no. There are also people here who need jobs.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:58 AM on April 9 [12 favorites]
Nice try but no. There are also people here who need jobs.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:58 AM on April 9 [12 favorites]
My therapist, who is a solo practitioner, does this. All her reception and phones stuff is handled by Filipinos. It mostly works in that they’ve helped when I needed it, but it’s a little awkward having to check in by camera.
posted by PussKillian at 8:00 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
posted by PussKillian at 8:00 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
*sigh*
Let's ask some basic questions :
1. It's a Japanese fried chicken place - might this be less unusual compared to small shop operations in Japan and east Asia? Are there other cultural differences at play?
2. Did they have difficulty getting a cashier prior to trying this solution?
3. Would they have to close if they had to hire someone local (e.g. can their revenue support someone local)
4. Would anyone have noticed or mentioned it if the system was entirely automated (or one that pretended to be automated, but was the same person running it, e.g. the aforementioned "mechanical turk"?)
5. Did someone threaten, argue with, or otherwise harass prior in-person employees? (A BIG DEAL if you're coming from Japan)
Maybe the answers all support the unpleasant sentiment overwhelming this thread, but the restaurant business is brutal. There's a reasonable chance this is a mom and pop shop, possibly run by immigrants. I have a hard time faulting them for trying to stay afloat with these solutions - if anything, this *should* be how tech supports the little guy, not just Tesla and Amazon.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 8:00 AM on April 9 [11 favorites]
Let's ask some basic questions :
1. It's a Japanese fried chicken place - might this be less unusual compared to small shop operations in Japan and east Asia? Are there other cultural differences at play?
2. Did they have difficulty getting a cashier prior to trying this solution?
3. Would they have to close if they had to hire someone local (e.g. can their revenue support someone local)
4. Would anyone have noticed or mentioned it if the system was entirely automated (or one that pretended to be automated, but was the same person running it, e.g. the aforementioned "mechanical turk"?)
5. Did someone threaten, argue with, or otherwise harass prior in-person employees? (A BIG DEAL if you're coming from Japan)
Maybe the answers all support the unpleasant sentiment overwhelming this thread, but the restaurant business is brutal. There's a reasonable chance this is a mom and pop shop, possibly run by immigrants. I have a hard time faulting them for trying to stay afloat with these solutions - if anything, this *should* be how tech supports the little guy, not just Tesla and Amazon.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 8:00 AM on April 9 [11 favorites]
The fast-food chains around me all used most outsourced call center employees to take drive-thru orders, especially the ones open 24 hours for late night shifts. SIRI automated voice tech just isn't good enough, and the difference in time zone makes it a much more pleasant job than for someone local.
Nice try but no. There are also people here who need jobs.
Maybe. All of NYC's unemployment rate is a moderately high 5%, but that's across the entire metro, so some localized areas probably have closer to 2% or less unemployment rates, and depending on the area, that could mean a really long commute for a low paying job.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:02 AM on April 9 [3 favorites]
Nice try but no. There are also people here who need jobs.
Maybe. All of NYC's unemployment rate is a moderately high 5%, but that's across the entire metro, so some localized areas probably have closer to 2% or less unemployment rates, and depending on the area, that could mean a really long commute for a low paying job.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:02 AM on April 9 [3 favorites]
Also, not thrilled by an assumption that a Filipina would WANT to move away from her country, culture, family and friends to come to the US?
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 8:04 AM on April 9 [15 favorites]
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 8:04 AM on April 9 [15 favorites]
^ give it another election cycle and maybe we start making assumptions about USians desperate to escape to the Philippines
posted by elkevelvet at 8:08 AM on April 9 [6 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 8:08 AM on April 9 [6 favorites]
Maybe the answers all support the unpleasant sentiment overwhelming this thread, but the restaurant business is brutal. There's a reasonable chance this is a mom and pop shop, possibly run by immigrants.
Also, the fact that it is only the cashier who is virtual is kind of novel; there are a growing number of instances where the restaurant itself is virtual, and you can only interface with them through Grubhub or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:10 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
Also, the fact that it is only the cashier who is virtual is kind of novel; there are a growing number of instances where the restaurant itself is virtual, and you can only interface with them through Grubhub or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:10 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
The problem I have with this is that, yet AGAIN, it affords more mobility to Capital than Labor.
Labor must have the exact same mobility as Capital, or else you'll just have this same pattern repeating over and over throughout history (it's not the first time Capital leverages geographic inequality to arbitrage oppression and increase profits).
Now, maybe you personally enjoy the concept of arbitraging oppression, but unless you are sufficiently invested that you don't need to work, this concept will be coming for your life sooner than you think.
posted by aramaic at 8:14 AM on April 9 [51 favorites]
Labor must have the exact same mobility as Capital, or else you'll just have this same pattern repeating over and over throughout history (it's not the first time Capital leverages geographic inequality to arbitrage oppression and increase profits).
Now, maybe you personally enjoy the concept of arbitraging oppression, but unless you are sufficiently invested that you don't need to work, this concept will be coming for your life sooner than you think.
posted by aramaic at 8:14 AM on April 9 [51 favorites]
Also - there are a couple of dim sum places that have been replacing a couple of wait staff with robot cats.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:17 AM on April 9 [6 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:17 AM on April 9 [6 favorites]
I have checked into a motel in San Luis Obispo with this arrangement (the woman on-screen was also from the Philippines). Rather than chicken, I was issued my keycard via the machine. For years I've heard the voice in the fast-food drive-through may actually be in India. I adapted quickly, and went on my way; what's the problem? Is it because New York is a union town?
posted by Rash at 8:19 AM on April 9
posted by Rash at 8:19 AM on April 9
aramaic - completely important point at a systemic level. But if we're making systemic arguments, then let's move the examples to the multi-billion dollar firms that support if not create those systems instead of criticizing a local Asian chicken shop in NYC with a remote Filipina cashier. Because the latter cannot stay alive in the former's system without using the same advantages.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 8:21 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 8:21 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
a couple of dim sum places that have been replacing a couple of wait staff with robot cats.
I was in a Hong Kong dim sum place recently which had a couple faceless robots driving around. They seemed to be doing something with checks and money; but one (and they weren't done up like cats) didn't come to our table.
posted by Rash at 8:24 AM on April 9
I was in a Hong Kong dim sum place recently which had a couple faceless robots driving around. They seemed to be doing something with checks and money; but one (and they weren't done up like cats) didn't come to our table.
posted by Rash at 8:24 AM on April 9
"But that woman should also have the opportunity to move from the Philippines to the U.S. and work there in p̶e̶r̶s̶o̶n̶ prison." FTFY
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:25 AM on April 9
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:25 AM on April 9
I've eaten at a couple of the robot cat dim sum joints now, and they all still have servers taking your orders and transferring dishes from the robot to your table and vice versa. They're more like helpful automated handcarts than anything else; I don't think anyone's losing their job to a robot cat in Brooklyn. Yet.
The years is 2024. I've eaten at a couple of the robot cat dim sum joints now is a true thing that people type on their keyboards.
posted by phooky at 8:28 AM on April 9 [16 favorites]
The years is 2024. I've eaten at a couple of the robot cat dim sum joints now is a true thing that people type on their keyboards.
posted by phooky at 8:28 AM on April 9 [16 favorites]
I'm not sure I care for this particular implementation, but I think it boils down to how one approaches these technologies.
For instance, Dawn Avatar Robot Café uses this idea to help disabled workers.
But on a different note, do the owners of Sansan need to be concerned about tax ramifications? Does the woman in the zoom call receive a W-2?
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:37 AM on April 9 [5 favorites]
For instance, Dawn Avatar Robot Café uses this idea to help disabled workers.
But on a different note, do the owners of Sansan need to be concerned about tax ramifications? Does the woman in the zoom call receive a W-2?
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:37 AM on April 9 [5 favorites]
And yeah, the entire problem with globalizing jobs is that they're generally going to places with few if any worker protections. A local worker is going to be entitled to certain benefits, including wage minimums, legal recourse, etc. that they may be unlikely or unable to get elsewhere. What are the working conditions of the remote worker? How much of their wage is going to them, as opposed to a middleman? If your entire interaction with the worker is remote, how do you verify anything? Can they be fired and replaced tomorrow at a whim?
The problem is not that "New York is a union town" or something. It's that when you globalize work, you also must globalize protections. Otherwise you end up with incredibly deep, entrenched stratification. And when the workers in place A strike or revolt, they're on the other side of the world and can be instantly replaced with people a thousand miles away. It's not good.
posted by phooky at 8:39 AM on April 9 [36 favorites]
The problem is not that "New York is a union town" or something. It's that when you globalize work, you also must globalize protections. Otherwise you end up with incredibly deep, entrenched stratification. And when the workers in place A strike or revolt, they're on the other side of the world and can be instantly replaced with people a thousand miles away. It's not good.
posted by phooky at 8:39 AM on April 9 [36 favorites]
No mention of actual cash or if it's a electronic-payment-only store. I can understand calling the position a "cashier" but they shouldn't call the payment statement a "cash register".
posted by achrise at 8:41 AM on April 9
posted by achrise at 8:41 AM on April 9
Wealthy owners have been outsourcing their labor overseas for decades now. I don't get the pearl-clutching of this post. Is it the novel implementation? And you do realize the Filipina on-screen will soon be replaced by an AI-generated simulacrum.
posted by Rash at 8:42 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
posted by Rash at 8:42 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
No mention of actual cash or if it's a electronic-payment-only store.
Could be either way; maybe just accepting a card initially but the more advanced units will accept cash, like the machines at the supermarket self-checkout.
posted by Rash at 8:48 AM on April 9
Could be either way; maybe just accepting a card initially but the more advanced units will accept cash, like the machines at the supermarket self-checkout.
posted by Rash at 8:48 AM on April 9
Wealthy owners have been outsourcing their labor overseas for decades now. I don't get the pearl-clutching of this post. Is it the novel implementation? And you do realize the Filipina on-screen will soon be replaced by an AI-generated simulacrum.
So, you're not making a statement that this is a good thing, you're just stating that it's been happening, and acknowledging that it's going to get worse, and yet you can't understand why people have concerns.
posted by LionIndex at 8:50 AM on April 9 [37 favorites]
So, you're not making a statement that this is a good thing, you're just stating that it's been happening, and acknowledging that it's going to get worse, and yet you can't understand why people have concerns.
posted by LionIndex at 8:50 AM on April 9 [37 favorites]
As usual, if you cannot fix everything, you must not fix anything.
posted by aramaic at 8:51 AM on April 9 [19 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 8:51 AM on April 9 [19 favorites]
It is not an inconsistency of critics that corporations have been getting away with something they (the critics) disagree with at all levels. Also there is an important difference between discussing this case with criticism for global outsourcing and saying perhaps "let's all boycott this chicken place." No one is doing that.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 8:54 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
posted by wellifyouinsist at 8:54 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
I think stores in NYC are legally required to accept cash, so they probably have some sort of machine to accept bills.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:54 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:54 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
you can't understand why people have concerns
Sure I do, and I have concerns also, but there's nothing I can do about it. "The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on." Adapt or die.
posted by Rash at 8:55 AM on April 9
Sure I do, and I have concerns also, but there's nothing I can do about it. "The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on." Adapt or die.
posted by Rash at 8:55 AM on April 9
And you do realize the Filipina on-screen will soon be replaced by an AI-generated simulacrum.tbh, i think you're partly correct: she will be replaced on-screen by an ai-generated simulacrum looking white or asian, maybe wasian, and the job of fixing the errors that the simulacrum makes will go to say, another filipina in cebu, perhaps.
for lower pay.
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:59 AM on April 9 [5 favorites]
Sure I do, and I have concerns also, but there's nothing I can do about it.
Uh, yeah there is:
* Not patronize that restaurant
* Vote for local, state, and federal politicians who prioritize support for labor protections
* Call your local, state, and federal representatives to ask them to prioritize support for labor protections
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:59 AM on April 9 [11 favorites]
Uh, yeah there is:
* Not patronize that restaurant
* Vote for local, state, and federal politicians who prioritize support for labor protections
* Call your local, state, and federal representatives to ask them to prioritize support for labor protections
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:59 AM on April 9 [11 favorites]
I don't get the pearl-clutching of this post.
Sure I have concerns
What are you even doing?
posted by LionIndex at 8:59 AM on April 9 [14 favorites]
Sure I have concerns
What are you even doing?
posted by LionIndex at 8:59 AM on April 9 [14 favorites]
I think this is another way in which this world becomes more dystopian and inhumane. The article says that she greets people who enter and is ignored. I'll bet that gets to be soul-sucking. I'm sure if the order isn't to the customer's liking, she gets a lot of crap, more so even then a human standing at the counter. And there's really nothing she can do about that. There's a whole lot of negativity and even racism involved in outsourcing. Idaho's pretty red, and I hear vile comments about 'those other people' when locals have to talk with someone from the US south on a telephone helpline, let alone someone from another country. Distancing is distancing.
Is she making good wages compared to what she would make normally? Maybe/probably. I sincerely doubt she's getting US minimum wage or comparative US wages. Is she getting decent hours, sick leave, time off, vac time? There's a reason US employers outsource, and that's because they can screw the employees. US employers are down with screwing the employees out of decent wages to begin with, and the ultimate screw is to not provide any job at all, because they're all outsourced.
...but the restaurant business is brutal.
Which is why we should be working to make things better for people, not just hiding things behind a computer screen. Plus, a large majority of the brutality goes on in the kitchen, and this doesn't address any of that.
There are also people here who need jobs.
Maybe. ...and depending on the area, that could mean a really long commute for a low paying job.
No maybe about it. People here need jobs and housing. People here are living in the streets FFS. There are people here who would take that job If our society wasn't so dystopian, we'd have a place that people could have affordable housing near their workplace and/or reasonable commutes (with public transportation!) But the rich don't want to live near the poors. Not to mention that service jobs shouldn't have such shitty wages. There are higher paying jobs and lower paying jobs, but no job should pay less than what a human being can live off without being in poverty. COLA for employers--they should have to live with it.
really long commute for a low paying job.
Typical that a US employer would expect the US employee to make a long commute for a low paying job instead of just...
letting them use a computer and working from home? I guess that only works if it's outsourced overseas then.
posted by BlueHorse at 9:01 AM on April 9 [14 favorites]
Is she making good wages compared to what she would make normally? Maybe/probably. I sincerely doubt she's getting US minimum wage or comparative US wages. Is she getting decent hours, sick leave, time off, vac time? There's a reason US employers outsource, and that's because they can screw the employees. US employers are down with screwing the employees out of decent wages to begin with, and the ultimate screw is to not provide any job at all, because they're all outsourced.
...but the restaurant business is brutal.
Which is why we should be working to make things better for people, not just hiding things behind a computer screen. Plus, a large majority of the brutality goes on in the kitchen, and this doesn't address any of that.
There are also people here who need jobs.
Maybe. ...and depending on the area, that could mean a really long commute for a low paying job.
No maybe about it. People here need jobs and housing. People here are living in the streets FFS. There are people here who would take that job If our society wasn't so dystopian, we'd have a place that people could have affordable housing near their workplace and/or reasonable commutes (with public transportation!) But the rich don't want to live near the poors. Not to mention that service jobs shouldn't have such shitty wages. There are higher paying jobs and lower paying jobs, but no job should pay less than what a human being can live off without being in poverty. COLA for employers--they should have to live with it.
really long commute for a low paying job.
Typical that a US employer would expect the US employee to make a long commute for a low paying job instead of just...
letting them use a computer and working from home? I guess that only works if it's outsourced overseas then.
posted by BlueHorse at 9:01 AM on April 9 [14 favorites]
"People don't want to work anymore."
posted by tommasz at 9:04 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 9:04 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
as a Filipino, I'll just say that this bit:
Having more jobs that Filipinos can do in the Philippines is a preferable option and one that will and has resulted in improvements in the welfare of the local population. This is the boon of call centers and other fruits of outsourcing. There are now jobs that pay really well in the Philippines that didn't exist before. Yes, it's a bad deal for Americans, and, yes, the profits of these booms have been unevenly distributed in the Philippines and in India, but I'm not convinced that, say, if offshoring and remote work didn't exist or was outlawed, it would've left these countries better off. These aren't mistakes. They're progress.
Moving to America to make something of yourself is a noble dream. But it cannot be the only dream.
posted by bl1nk at 9:14 AM on April 9 [41 favorites]
If it works for this shop, great. But that woman should also have the opportunity to move from the Philippines to the U.S. and work there in person.gives me ambivalence. Yes, the wage disparities between the Global South and the US are going to fuel capital to outsource labor, and making it easier for folks to immigrate to the US is an option that will make life easier for Americans by reducing some of this wage pressure. But, it's generally a terrible deal for most Filipinos. The OFW program that incentivizes Filipinos to travel abroad and remit money home opens up many folks to human trafficking as well as generally being exploited by various shady recruiting companies. It also promotes the fracturing of families as parents often leave children behind in the care of relatives while they try to earn an income that will pay for their schooling or for being able to buy a house.
Having more jobs that Filipinos can do in the Philippines is a preferable option and one that will and has resulted in improvements in the welfare of the local population. This is the boon of call centers and other fruits of outsourcing. There are now jobs that pay really well in the Philippines that didn't exist before. Yes, it's a bad deal for Americans, and, yes, the profits of these booms have been unevenly distributed in the Philippines and in India, but I'm not convinced that, say, if offshoring and remote work didn't exist or was outlawed, it would've left these countries better off. These aren't mistakes. They're progress.
Moving to America to make something of yourself is a noble dream. But it cannot be the only dream.
posted by bl1nk at 9:14 AM on April 9 [41 favorites]
Kiosks and online ordering aren't particularly dystopian, and they're certainly not new. Ticket sales for concerts or movies have been online for literally decades, largely replacing the box offices of the past. Hell, I was ordering sandwiches from a kiosk at the local convenience store back in the early aughts. In Japan, food ticket ordering machines at the local ramen place have been around just about forever. Most of us with cars have been swiping a card and pumping gas (or electrons, now) since the '90s. None of those ever felt especially weird or dystopian to me, even coming from the '70s where every transaction involved a person, and these new options almost always beat standing in line. If this place just had a kiosk where you punched in your order and swiped a card, and it was delivered to the counter or your table, it wouldn't be news. Hell, that's the way McDonald's works these days. There were automats in the 19th century!
What's weird here is that there is a real live person where it would seem a person would not necessarily need to be. You know, like the weirdness when there are bathroom attendants. What's especially weird is that it's a real live person, but via videoconference. It's already kind of weird because it's unnecessary work performing a job that does not tangibly seem to benefit either the customer or the restaurant, and that's made especially weird when it's unnecessary work via teleconferencing. I get why we sometimes have "make work" jobs to keep society moving, but it's particularly depressing to think of someone spending their days greeting people via screen in a far-off land for what seems to be no apparent reason.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 9:22 AM on April 9 [6 favorites]
What's weird here is that there is a real live person where it would seem a person would not necessarily need to be. You know, like the weirdness when there are bathroom attendants. What's especially weird is that it's a real live person, but via videoconference. It's already kind of weird because it's unnecessary work performing a job that does not tangibly seem to benefit either the customer or the restaurant, and that's made especially weird when it's unnecessary work via teleconferencing. I get why we sometimes have "make work" jobs to keep society moving, but it's particularly depressing to think of someone spending their days greeting people via screen in a far-off land for what seems to be no apparent reason.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 9:22 AM on April 9 [6 favorites]
Here's a 2006 NYT article about fast food call centers, allegedly domestic in this case. I still find it strange that in 2024 it's feasible to send 1 GB/hr of data around the world to save a few bucks. Also, I'm guessing the monies paid to the offshore call center are listed as "napkins" on their tax return.
posted by credulous at 9:25 AM on April 9
posted by credulous at 9:25 AM on April 9
Mr.Know-it-some: But that woman should also have the opportunity to move from the Philippines to the U.S. and work there in person.
Reminds me of when I worked and lived in the US and people were consistently surprised I didn't intend to stay there my whole life.
What could I possibly have to go back home to that was better than some crappy little town and low wages in Northern California?
posted by signal at 9:30 AM on April 9 [8 favorites]
Reminds me of when I worked and lived in the US and people were consistently surprised I didn't intend to stay there my whole life.
What could I possibly have to go back home to that was better than some crappy little town and low wages in Northern California?
posted by signal at 9:30 AM on April 9 [8 favorites]
Also, I'm guessing the monies paid to the offshore call center are listed as "napkins" on their tax return.
I would imagine the electronic greeters are not employees of the restaurant but rather employees of the service that provides the virtual attendant service.
posted by mmascolino at 9:32 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
I would imagine the electronic greeters are not employees of the restaurant but rather employees of the service that provides the virtual attendant service.
posted by mmascolino at 9:32 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
This will only take off if Americans can get the same satisfaction from abusing a fast food worker over video chat that they get from doing it in person.
posted by Vulgar Euphemism at 9:34 AM on April 9 [7 favorites]
posted by Vulgar Euphemism at 9:34 AM on April 9 [7 favorites]
Is there any way of radicalizing people in The Philippines or India against the US than making them work remote retail in the US? I think not.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 9:35 AM on April 9 [4 favorites]
posted by thatwhichfalls at 9:35 AM on April 9 [4 favorites]
From TFA:
Addressing some specific questions raised above:
Further, 'East Asia' is not a cultural monolith, and even if it was the Philippines is in South East Asia, and part of the distinctly non-monolithic archipelago that includes the islands of Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Papua, and many others, with a wealth of human and cultural diversity. The mythic East Asia being invoked is an illusion.
I also note that the same people who tend to hold this wrongheaded belief will immediately jump in with "aha but what if the labour laws are bad!? GOTCHA!" To which I say "so you support the right to strike against bad workplace practices?" That gets less enthusiastic support, for some reason...
Frankly, fuck the entrepreneurial spirit. Removing protections from one type of worker makes it easier to remove them from the next, and the next, and the next. The so-called 'can-do' energy of American enterprise has probably made the world a shittier place.
Outsourcing simply creates vulnerable jobs and vulnerable workers in ways that are out of sight. It's indefensible. Stop defending it.
posted by prismatic7 at 9:36 AM on April 9 [46 favorites]
"When you do the business, you want to control the cost,” a manager who did not give her name told me through the window. “In New York City, the regular income is very high, so you don’t want to pay attention to think about this kind of question,” she continued, gesturing toward the cashier as if to indicate that she did not want to have to worry about another employee. “As a business owner, you’ve got to think about this. It’s very useful.”The purpose of doing this, whether it is an 'inmigrant' owner or not, is to deny a worker a living wage. It's stated explicitly, right there.
Addressing some specific questions raised above:
1. It's a Japanese fried chicken place - might this be less unusual compared to small shop operations in Japan and east Asia? Are there other cultural differences at play?This is weirdly Orientalist in tone, and kind of engineers-disease in effect. It's beginning with the proposition that evading local labour laws, not to mention the mandated workplace protections and benefits available to US workers (hilariously limited compared to other nations as they may be). The technological solution is, as many other folks in this thread have pointed out, a limited one that many businesses abandon.
Further, 'East Asia' is not a cultural monolith, and even if it was the Philippines is in South East Asia, and part of the distinctly non-monolithic archipelago that includes the islands of Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Papua, and many others, with a wealth of human and cultural diversity. The mythic East Asia being invoked is an illusion.
2. Did they have difficulty getting a cashier prior to trying this solution?I suggest the reason they may have had difficulty getting a cashier in a US city with 5% unemployment is more closely linked to the sentiments in the quite I've given above - the owner or manager is unwilling to pay a living wage and benefits to a local worker.
3. Would they have to close if they had to hire someone local (e.g. can their revenue support someone local)This argument is so common in hospitality and food service and it is completely unhinged. For the hard of thinking: IF YOU CANNOT PAY YOUR COSTS, YOUR BUSINESS IS NOT VIABLE. If you cannot or will not comply with labour laws, you should not operate the business.
I also note that the same people who tend to hold this wrongheaded belief will immediately jump in with "aha but what if the labour laws are bad!? GOTCHA!" To which I say "so you support the right to strike against bad workplace practices?" That gets less enthusiastic support, for some reason...
4. Would anyone have noticed or mentioned it if the system was entirely automated (or one that pretended to be automated, but was the same person running it, e.g. the aforementioned "mechanical turk"?)Yes. Because they did notice and continue to notice, and continue to dislike it (see, for example, self-checkout systems, Amazon stores, etc.)
5. Did someone threaten, argue with, or otherwise harass prior in-person employees? (A BIG DEAL if you're coming from Japan)Firstly, there are still physically present employees, including a manager, on site. This argument is nonsensical for that reason alone. But importantly, going to workers rights again: every worker is entitled to a safe workplace. Whether made unsafe through potential injury or potential harrassment, it is the responsibility of the employer to take steps to render it safe by providing adequate protection for the employees. Being telepresent cannot protect a worker from abuse and bullying even if it does protect them from gross physical harm. Employee safety has to be a line item in your budget, and if it's not then you cannot pay your costs. To repeat: IF YOU CANNOT PAY YOUR COSTS, YOUR BUSINESS IS NOT VIABLE.
Frankly, fuck the entrepreneurial spirit. Removing protections from one type of worker makes it easier to remove them from the next, and the next, and the next. The so-called 'can-do' energy of American enterprise has probably made the world a shittier place.
Outsourcing simply creates vulnerable jobs and vulnerable workers in ways that are out of sight. It's indefensible. Stop defending it.
posted by prismatic7 at 9:36 AM on April 9 [46 favorites]
to deny a worker a living wage
Cashiers get minimum wage, which is generally not a living wage, in the US (if said cashier has to pay rent).
posted by Rash at 9:51 AM on April 9 [3 favorites]
Cashiers get minimum wage, which is generally not a living wage, in the US (if said cashier has to pay rent).
posted by Rash at 9:51 AM on April 9 [3 favorites]
Not defending anything, prismatic7, just observing reality as I see it.
posted by Rash at 9:53 AM on April 9
posted by Rash at 9:53 AM on April 9
That's not better, Rash.
posted by prismatic7 at 10:07 AM on April 9 [8 favorites]
posted by prismatic7 at 10:07 AM on April 9 [8 favorites]
Cashiers get minimum wage, which is generally not a living wage, in the US (if said cashier has to pay rent).Also, that's really not helping you out here. Minimum or living, a worker is being denied wages and conditions. AND CONDITIONS, to be extra special really clear about that. Money means precisely fuck all if you are not also afforded even the very basic protections of US labour law.
The answer is never to shrug and move on, because that's not good enough.
Solidarity.
An injury to one is an injury to all.
These are great principles that came from the American labour movement. It is a crime that Americans have forgotten them. And for what?
posted by prismatic7 at 10:17 AM on April 9 [4 favorites]
I work nearby and walk by this restaurant sometimes. Before the pandemic, they sold soup dumplings and noodles, and once the pandemic came, they walled off part of the seating area and set up a touchscreen for ordering and a window to get your food.
There's been a lot of turnover - I think it was a ghost kitchen for a while, and in the past year and a half, there's been a soba restaurant, an upscale burger place with duck-fat fries, and now a chicken restaurant. For a while, there was no cashier at all, just the touchscreen and the window, so a remote cashier is a small upgrade.
posted by ectabo at 10:20 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
There's been a lot of turnover - I think it was a ghost kitchen for a while, and in the past year and a half, there's been a soba restaurant, an upscale burger place with duck-fat fries, and now a chicken restaurant. For a while, there was no cashier at all, just the touchscreen and the window, so a remote cashier is a small upgrade.
posted by ectabo at 10:20 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
Wealthy owners have been outsourcing their labor overseas for decades now. I don't get the pearl-clutching of this post. Is it the novel implementation?
The distance from normal life required to analyze things like this honestly makes it difficult for me to explain. I'm not sure what's missing here. Is it the awareness that this sort of job--low wages, in person--is the kind of job that many young or lower-income people rely on (whether or not the labor is properly compensated)? Is it the basic knowledge of the EV that would inform anyone who had been there for anything besides bar-crawling with college buddies that among the multimillion-dollar condos it's studded with public housing filled with the kind of people who work these kinds of jobs? Is it a broader basic sociopolitical understanding that subverting labor protections locally drags everyone's standard of living down everywhere?
Or is some grasp of culture and language that would allow one to recall that "pearl-clutching" refers to rich people being or pretending to be shocked or scandalized and thus that it's embarrassing to use in the context of people worried about kids from the Avenue D PJs having even fewer options to get into the labor force?
I don't know. Not sure I can translate.
posted by praemunire at 10:20 AM on April 9 [5 favorites]
The distance from normal life required to analyze things like this honestly makes it difficult for me to explain. I'm not sure what's missing here. Is it the awareness that this sort of job--low wages, in person--is the kind of job that many young or lower-income people rely on (whether or not the labor is properly compensated)? Is it the basic knowledge of the EV that would inform anyone who had been there for anything besides bar-crawling with college buddies that among the multimillion-dollar condos it's studded with public housing filled with the kind of people who work these kinds of jobs? Is it a broader basic sociopolitical understanding that subverting labor protections locally drags everyone's standard of living down everywhere?
Or is some grasp of culture and language that would allow one to recall that "pearl-clutching" refers to rich people being or pretending to be shocked or scandalized and thus that it's embarrassing to use in the context of people worried about kids from the Avenue D PJs having even fewer options to get into the labor force?
I don't know. Not sure I can translate.
posted by praemunire at 10:20 AM on April 9 [5 favorites]
This new Tokyo café has robot waiters controlled remotely by disabled workers
posted by joeyh at 10:26 AM on April 9
posted by joeyh at 10:26 AM on April 9
"But that woman should also have the opportunity to move from the Philippines to the U.S. and work there in p̶e̶r̶s̶o̶n̶ prison." FTFY
what?
posted by trig at 10:27 AM on April 9
what?
posted by trig at 10:27 AM on April 9
Slight derail: "pearl clutching" always feels really misogynist to me. Is there any equivalent unisex expression? Maybe just "scandalized"?
posted by trig at 10:30 AM on April 9 [5 favorites]
posted by trig at 10:30 AM on April 9 [5 favorites]
Anyone care to bet that this is how Tesla's autopilot system works? Some poor guy in India is trying to drive your car by remote control.
you laugh but
posted by trig at 10:34 AM on April 9
you laugh but
posted by trig at 10:34 AM on April 9
I'm half convinced that the reason my Google Home device is less capable than it was a few years ago is because the whole backend is a mechanical turk.
posted by thecjm at 10:41 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 10:41 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
As long as the remote worker is paid the same as a local worker would be, what's the problem?
posted by clawsoon at 10:49 AM on April 9
posted by clawsoon at 10:49 AM on April 9
As long as the remote worker is paid the same as a local worker would be, what's the problem?
The remote worker is very likely not paid the same as a local worker would be.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:51 AM on April 9 [9 favorites]
The remote worker is very likely not paid the same as a local worker would be.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:51 AM on April 9 [9 favorites]
As long as the remote worker is paid the same as a local worker would be, what's the problem?
Well, I for one don't want interacting with the cashiers at my restaurants, grocery stores, or anywhere else to require a fucking Zoom call. And while it's possible the pay is the same, do you really believe that it is (or will remain that way for long)?
posted by axiom at 10:54 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
Well, I for one don't want interacting with the cashiers at my restaurants, grocery stores, or anywhere else to require a fucking Zoom call. And while it's possible the pay is the same, do you really believe that it is (or will remain that way for long)?
posted by axiom at 10:54 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
To repeat: IF YOU CANNOT PAY YOUR COSTS, YOUR BUSINESS IS NOT VIABLE.
The problem with this is that companies willing to cheat short term (which inevitably becomes long or ALL-term), is that they usually succeed long enough to eat the competition and stave off implosion. If we had effective regulation and enforcement this would be a speedbump but… note the use of the subjunctive to indicate a condition contrary to fact.
* Not patronize that restaurant
* Vote for local, state, and federal politicians who prioritize support for labor protections
* Call your local, state, and federal representatives to ask them to prioritize support for labor protections
I really wish we could stop offering people advice that either a) almost certainly doesn’t apply to them / nearly all people, or b) insists that they engage with a process that requires enormous amounts of time and energy and in nearly every case exists purely for show. The point of those systems is to soak up the excess energies of the well-intentioned busybodies, not to enable change. The powerful equate change with harm except where it helps them more efficiently strip profit from the workers. In the vanishingly rare cases where it is possible to change an aspect of the geopolitical system via these methods, it is virtually guaranteed the change in question does not threaten the powerful, who have long sealed the exits and escape hatches and will not be moved by anything less than widespread work stoppage or riots. Blaming people for not stepping into the obvious timesink trap is perverse. That said…
Adapt or die.
This sort of cringey edgelord sheeple shit is worse. There are ways to communicate to people who are having difficulty accepting an inevitable change, and whether you choose to employ those methods and demonstrate compassion in the face of Capital finding a new vector for stripping away human dignity - or just perform the text equivalent of flipping the double bird - is how people can determine whether you’re participating in good faith or threadshitting. And since this is an obvious giveaway for threadshitting: you could be doing literally anything else with your limited remaining breaths. Anything! And everyone including you would be happier and better off. If you’re so intent on appearing to be a paragon of rationality, demonstrate it by employing some compassion.
Everyone reading this is going to die, and everyone needs to decide: is what you’re communicating really worth the time expended?
posted by Ryvar at 10:55 AM on April 9 [14 favorites]
The problem with this is that companies willing to cheat short term (which inevitably becomes long or ALL-term), is that they usually succeed long enough to eat the competition and stave off implosion. If we had effective regulation and enforcement this would be a speedbump but… note the use of the subjunctive to indicate a condition contrary to fact.
* Not patronize that restaurant
* Vote for local, state, and federal politicians who prioritize support for labor protections
* Call your local, state, and federal representatives to ask them to prioritize support for labor protections
I really wish we could stop offering people advice that either a) almost certainly doesn’t apply to them / nearly all people, or b) insists that they engage with a process that requires enormous amounts of time and energy and in nearly every case exists purely for show. The point of those systems is to soak up the excess energies of the well-intentioned busybodies, not to enable change. The powerful equate change with harm except where it helps them more efficiently strip profit from the workers. In the vanishingly rare cases where it is possible to change an aspect of the geopolitical system via these methods, it is virtually guaranteed the change in question does not threaten the powerful, who have long sealed the exits and escape hatches and will not be moved by anything less than widespread work stoppage or riots. Blaming people for not stepping into the obvious timesink trap is perverse. That said…
Adapt or die.
This sort of cringey edgelord sheeple shit is worse. There are ways to communicate to people who are having difficulty accepting an inevitable change, and whether you choose to employ those methods and demonstrate compassion in the face of Capital finding a new vector for stripping away human dignity - or just perform the text equivalent of flipping the double bird - is how people can determine whether you’re participating in good faith or threadshitting. And since this is an obvious giveaway for threadshitting: you could be doing literally anything else with your limited remaining breaths. Anything! And everyone including you would be happier and better off. If you’re so intent on appearing to be a paragon of rationality, demonstrate it by employing some compassion.
Everyone reading this is going to die, and everyone needs to decide: is what you’re communicating really worth the time expended?
posted by Ryvar at 10:55 AM on April 9 [14 favorites]
It's not the same pay. It is, explicitly, in the manager's own words, a way to not pay a worker.
posted by prismatic7 at 10:57 AM on April 9 [13 favorites]
posted by prismatic7 at 10:57 AM on April 9 [13 favorites]
The problem is that we've had over the past half-century plus of globalization, there has been no fundamental progress in the answer to the question "what is the fair pay for a day's work?" There is just one side saying that, obviously, the fair pay for a day's work is the least amount the business owner can pay, whether by outsourcing the work, hiring people who are not able to advocate for themselves, etc. Meanwhile the other side says that the fair pay is the actual dollar value of the work being done and that all workers deserve the products of their labour. There is an ever-increasing gulf between the two answers, especially as globalization of media and entertainment as well as labour mean that someone working for an extremely low wage in India or the Philippines can be part of (for example) a VFX team making a billion dollar movie. What wage is fair for them? A percentage of the billion dollars the movie will make? Or just slightly more than the prevailing wage in their area? Or something in the middle? We can say that they should be able to feed and house themselves and their families - but that is a wage that will certainly put artists in California and Atlanta and Montreal who are doing the same jobs out of work. How do we ensure fair and good wages and labour conditions for those in the Global South and the US and Canada?
My personal stake in this is that my own industry has been hit hard over the past 2 years, including by outsourcing, and there are basically no jobs in my field in my local area at the moment. Now I'm working for a company in Europe who pay much, much less than I have been earning, a wage that is not enough to sustain myself (but it's better than unemployment) so I am eating through my savings and hoping things improve -- with 20 years experience in my field I am basically earning what I was at the start of my career with zero experience, when I had 3 roommates and no expenses. Do I deserve to be paid much much more than my European coworkers who are not living in one of the most expensive cities in the world? I wouldn't say that - but at the same time, I need to live and pay rent and stuff. Should I move to not be living in one of the most expensive cities in the world? Maybe, but the threat of return-to-office and the fact that local tax incentives mean that if jobs do come back to the US, I'm probably going to need to be in this immediate area mean that it doesn't seem like a great option either.
posted by matcha action at 11:03 AM on April 9 [5 favorites]
My personal stake in this is that my own industry has been hit hard over the past 2 years, including by outsourcing, and there are basically no jobs in my field in my local area at the moment. Now I'm working for a company in Europe who pay much, much less than I have been earning, a wage that is not enough to sustain myself (but it's better than unemployment) so I am eating through my savings and hoping things improve -- with 20 years experience in my field I am basically earning what I was at the start of my career with zero experience, when I had 3 roommates and no expenses. Do I deserve to be paid much much more than my European coworkers who are not living in one of the most expensive cities in the world? I wouldn't say that - but at the same time, I need to live and pay rent and stuff. Should I move to not be living in one of the most expensive cities in the world? Maybe, but the threat of return-to-office and the fact that local tax incentives mean that if jobs do come back to the US, I'm probably going to need to be in this immediate area mean that it doesn't seem like a great option either.
posted by matcha action at 11:03 AM on April 9 [5 favorites]
It's interesting that this idea evokes such negative reactions, but few seem to give reasons that really stand up to scrutiny.
My first reaction was more impulsive, but on further thought, I'm not sure I could really justify forbidding such remote work. If a job can be done remotely, it gets difficult to start dictating where that remote location should be.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:16 AM on April 9
My first reaction was more impulsive, but on further thought, I'm not sure I could really justify forbidding such remote work. If a job can be done remotely, it gets difficult to start dictating where that remote location should be.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:16 AM on April 9
The economics of being a retail worker or employing a retail worker in an extreme cost of living area like New York City or San Francisco or Vancouver are so different than they are in most other places, I'm not certain I feel comfortable villainizing the store owners in this scenario.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:21 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
posted by jacquilynne at 11:21 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
I'm not certain I feel comfortable villainizing the store owners in this scenario.
Since the store owners are happy to partake of the benefits of living here and running a business here, I do.
posted by praemunire at 11:25 AM on April 9 [20 favorites]
Since the store owners are happy to partake of the benefits of living here and running a business here, I do.
posted by praemunire at 11:25 AM on April 9 [20 favorites]
I'm not certain I feel comfortable villainizing the store owners in this scenario.
then hopefully we don't have to villainize anyone here. or, maybe the store owners are the vilest of villains? maybe they are great people you'd go bowling with? golf, I'm sorry. who knows?
Some comments here are recognizing that something about this doesn't make a lot of sense if we're looking at long term sustainability and just decency. If you just keep saying "that's the way things are" then you will wake up and live in exactly the kind of world where that's the way things are. and maybe that is just reality, a lot of people are all about the way things are. I'm not suggesting your comment embodies that jacquilynne, I guess I just don't care if the store owners are villains or not. the whole situation makes villains of us all.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:28 AM on April 9 [3 favorites]
then hopefully we don't have to villainize anyone here. or, maybe the store owners are the vilest of villains? maybe they are great people you'd go bowling with? golf, I'm sorry. who knows?
Some comments here are recognizing that something about this doesn't make a lot of sense if we're looking at long term sustainability and just decency. If you just keep saying "that's the way things are" then you will wake up and live in exactly the kind of world where that's the way things are. and maybe that is just reality, a lot of people are all about the way things are. I'm not suggesting your comment embodies that jacquilynne, I guess I just don't care if the store owners are villains or not. the whole situation makes villains of us all.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:28 AM on April 9 [3 favorites]
I’m still trying to figure out what exactly the advantage of having a remote order-taker is over a straight-up self-serve kiosk—it seems to just introduce a whole new layer of potential technical complications (connection problems and background noise causing audio issues immediately come to mind). People who dislike the self-serve model probably overlap with the people who dislike this model as well, so nobody is happier. Who is this supposed to cater to? Is having a real live person calling in from the global south actually cheaper than designing and maintaining a comprehensible self-order system?
posted by btfreek at 11:28 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
posted by btfreek at 11:28 AM on April 9 [1 favorite]
Upon further thought after hitting Post Comment, I suppose I’ve stood behind enough people bumbling their way through the supermarket self checkout or McDonald’s self serve kiosk that I could see the appeal of having a trained employee entering the orders. Usually in the self-serve scenarios you can “call for help” and someone will come out (usually harried kitchen staff trying to fit tech support in between their usual tasks).
posted by btfreek at 11:34 AM on April 9
posted by btfreek at 11:34 AM on April 9
"pearl clutching" always feels really misogynist to me. Is there any equivalent unisex expression? Maybe just "scandalized"
Yes, sorry, I should have used the latter (but instinctively went with the former since I see it so often here on MeFi). As expressed upthread, 'pearl-clutching' also has a built-in class aspect, because of, I now wish I'd avoided using that term.
posted by Rash at 11:48 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
Yes, sorry, I should have used the latter (but instinctively went with the former since I see it so often here on MeFi). As expressed upthread, 'pearl-clutching' also has a built-in class aspect, because of, I now wish I'd avoided using that term.
posted by Rash at 11:48 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
Some comments here are recognizing that something about this doesn't make a lot of sense if we're looking at long term sustainability and just decency.
I don't think we really disagree on that point. A lot of things about today's world don't make a lot of sense if we're looking at long term sustainability and just decency, but these folks who are running a small restaurant and are not capitalist oligarchs aren't going to be able to solve those things.
My sisters-in-law used to run a bakery in Vancouver, and they closed it down, because they couldn't charge high enough prices to pay their staff enough for their staff to live in or even near Vancouver because Vancouver is an insanely expensive place to live. If they tried to charge more, their sales would drop so they still couldn't pay their staff enough to live in Vancouver.
And, okay, so that's the right outcome -- the business wasn't viable, so it went out of business. But people in Vancouver still want to buy cakes, so now they're either buying them from some giant corporation that's baking them somewhere else where it doesn't cost as much and shipping them in and putting profits in Galen Weston's pocket or they're buying them from another bakery that's exploiting temporary foreign workers or they're buying them from another bakery that is, like theirs was, just starting up and the owners haven't run through all the money they saved to start a business yet. Does it make the world a better place if people buy their cake from those other places instead?
In an ideal world, the solutions to these problems would involve things like restricting investment home ownership to return housing prices to a sustainable level and strongly enforcing labour laws and eliminating paths to exploitation of temporary workers so that every business is operating on a level playing field or burning the entire capitalist system down and replacing it with a guaranteed income system but individual business owners don't control those levers so they push the levers they have.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:58 AM on April 9 [10 favorites]
I don't think we really disagree on that point. A lot of things about today's world don't make a lot of sense if we're looking at long term sustainability and just decency, but these folks who are running a small restaurant and are not capitalist oligarchs aren't going to be able to solve those things.
My sisters-in-law used to run a bakery in Vancouver, and they closed it down, because they couldn't charge high enough prices to pay their staff enough for their staff to live in or even near Vancouver because Vancouver is an insanely expensive place to live. If they tried to charge more, their sales would drop so they still couldn't pay their staff enough to live in Vancouver.
And, okay, so that's the right outcome -- the business wasn't viable, so it went out of business. But people in Vancouver still want to buy cakes, so now they're either buying them from some giant corporation that's baking them somewhere else where it doesn't cost as much and shipping them in and putting profits in Galen Weston's pocket or they're buying them from another bakery that's exploiting temporary foreign workers or they're buying them from another bakery that is, like theirs was, just starting up and the owners haven't run through all the money they saved to start a business yet. Does it make the world a better place if people buy their cake from those other places instead?
In an ideal world, the solutions to these problems would involve things like restricting investment home ownership to return housing prices to a sustainable level and strongly enforcing labour laws and eliminating paths to exploitation of temporary workers so that every business is operating on a level playing field or burning the entire capitalist system down and replacing it with a guaranteed income system but individual business owners don't control those levers so they push the levers they have.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:58 AM on April 9 [10 favorites]
I don't regret 'adapt or die', however. It is possible to both have compassion for those in low-paying jobs and at the same time acknowledge the harsh reality of our ever-changing world; and for big-box cashiers and others working in retail the writing is clearly on the wall. Appeals to my local, state, and federal representatives aren't going to change that, and even a massive general strike wouldn't stop the clock's hands, or turn them back.
posted by Rash at 12:33 PM on April 9
posted by Rash at 12:33 PM on April 9
If she were paid a living wage for the Philippines they could still do this kind of arbitrage with the cost of labor. Would that make it ok? What would the unemployment rate in NYC have to be for this to be acceptable?
posted by Selena777 at 12:34 PM on April 9
posted by Selena777 at 12:34 PM on April 9
For context, minimum wage in the Philippines is just under 187$ US per month (source), or about a dollar an hour. It varies by province, but that's the neighbourhood we are talking about.
posted by Mogur at 12:50 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
posted by Mogur at 12:50 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
Since the store owners are happy to partake of the benefits of living here and running a business here, I do
We're all pretty satisfied to enjoy the benefits of labor from places where that labor is far cheaper. Including places still within the boundaries of the CONUS. This may be an itemization you've worked out somehow. I can't quite get past a gut reaction that's more substantive than "but American jobs/workers/labor something".
Some comments here are recognizing that something about this doesn't make a lot of sense if we're looking at long term sustainability and just decency.
I'm still not seeing any very strong arguments over this arrangement regarding sustainability or decency.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:46 PM on April 9
We're all pretty satisfied to enjoy the benefits of labor from places where that labor is far cheaper. Including places still within the boundaries of the CONUS. This may be an itemization you've worked out somehow. I can't quite get past a gut reaction that's more substantive than "but American jobs/workers/labor something".
Some comments here are recognizing that something about this doesn't make a lot of sense if we're looking at long term sustainability and just decency.
I'm still not seeing any very strong arguments over this arrangement regarding sustainability or decency.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:46 PM on April 9
This appears to be a chain of ~5 restaurants that all got started in the last year, and it appears to be a well funded operation designed to undercut the alternatives operating the "right" way.
Don't feel too sympathetic to the small business owner here that doesn't appear to exist.
posted by Pitachu at 2:02 PM on April 9 [8 favorites]
Don't feel too sympathetic to the small business owner here that doesn't appear to exist.
posted by Pitachu at 2:02 PM on April 9 [8 favorites]
Even if her pay were equivalent, she'd still be an employee of a third party based in another country. This type of outsourcing means that she likely doesn't have access to the protections of US labor laws. prismatic7 already pointed that out, but it bears repeating. It undercuts captal-L Labor. Is it worse than other, more invisible outsourcing? Probably not. But that doesn't mean it's good.
There's been a lot of attention paid to the case of outsourced garment workers in sweatshops, although little movement. I believe that in that case, a good solution is to give the workers standing in US courts to sue the clothing companies and have their rights enforced. Right now, contracting with a third-party in another country insulates the US company from the workers, but the law doesn't have to work that way. That's an alternative to banning the practice which can support the rights of Labor everywhere instead of just locally.
n.b. not that the US legal system is great, and technical access isn't the same as practical access, but it's the right direction.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:24 PM on April 9 [6 favorites]
There's been a lot of attention paid to the case of outsourced garment workers in sweatshops, although little movement. I believe that in that case, a good solution is to give the workers standing in US courts to sue the clothing companies and have their rights enforced. Right now, contracting with a third-party in another country insulates the US company from the workers, but the law doesn't have to work that way. That's an alternative to banning the practice which can support the rights of Labor everywhere instead of just locally.
n.b. not that the US legal system is great, and technical access isn't the same as practical access, but it's the right direction.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:24 PM on April 9 [6 favorites]
NYC's minimum wage is $16/hour with a potential to go up to $20/hour following California's lead. I imagine for most small businesses with small margins, this is untenable. The business environment for small shops in NYC is very unfriendly. Many small businesses are closing. I don't consider a 5 restaurant chain a big corporate entity - most likely some small business owner trying to seed some neighborhoods and see which survive. Many restaurants and retail shops are moving over to the self-checkout model.
I was thinking the other day that the best way to survive as a small business in NYC right now is to have a giant family and have them work the store/restaurant and live in one owned house (not condo or coop). House ownership (stand-alone houses) have surprisingly low property taxes in NYC probably because many of our politicians live in houses (de Blasio, Adams, etc). If you could have low costs with an owned house and free/low-cost labor with family, you would probably do really well in NYC. It feels like going back to the feudal system but in a business environment (lords = corporations and tenant farmers = small businesses).
posted by ichimunki at 6:46 PM on April 9
I was thinking the other day that the best way to survive as a small business in NYC right now is to have a giant family and have them work the store/restaurant and live in one owned house (not condo or coop). House ownership (stand-alone houses) have surprisingly low property taxes in NYC probably because many of our politicians live in houses (de Blasio, Adams, etc). If you could have low costs with an owned house and free/low-cost labor with family, you would probably do really well in NYC. It feels like going back to the feudal system but in a business environment (lords = corporations and tenant farmers = small businesses).
posted by ichimunki at 6:46 PM on April 9
NYC's minimum wage is $16/hour with a potential to go up to $20/hour following California's lead. I imagine for most small businesses with small margins, this is untenable.
Might I suggest not going into business, then? There isn't some intrinsic right to extract profit from other people's labor.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:03 PM on April 9 [6 favorites]
Might I suggest not going into business, then? There isn't some intrinsic right to extract profit from other people's labor.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:03 PM on April 9 [6 favorites]
I see that I should've added a sarcasm tag to my comment.
posted by clawsoon at 7:28 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 7:28 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
you do realize the Filipina on-screen will soon be replaced by an AI-generated simulacrum
That would be the logical business move.
What will actually happen is that she will eventually get sacked for refusing to comply with corporate policy that requires her to attend the office in person even though doing so would involve a daily commute across the Pacific Ocean.
posted by flabdablet at 8:03 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
That would be the logical business move.
What will actually happen is that she will eventually get sacked for refusing to comply with corporate policy that requires her to attend the office in person even though doing so would involve a daily commute across the Pacific Ocean.
posted by flabdablet at 8:03 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
The most terrifying thing here is that the labor we’re exploiting will no longer be some anonymous ghost who assembled our cellphone, or hypothetical child who batted our store bought quilt. We’ll have to look the person right in the eye.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:56 PM on April 9
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:56 PM on April 9
The future is stupid because we don't know what it is yet
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 10:30 PM on April 9
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 10:30 PM on April 9
Coincidentally, I stumbled across that restaurant a couple of days ago. When I heard the disembodied woman's voice, I first thought it was just some computerized welcome greeting me until the cashier came out from the back; it took me a second to even realize that there was a real person on screen talking to me.
Anyway, after she took my order we chatted for a bit. She seemed perfectly nice and willing to talk about her job. She said she had been doing it for about a month and enjoyed working from home. She mentioned that there were five branches in total, and at first I was a bit alarmed, thinking that she herself had constantly to remotely cashier 5 different counters, switching back and forth, but she said no, that she only had that one restaurant and she had colleagues who handled the other four.
I stayed there for about an hour on a Saturday afternoon, during which time nobody else even walked in the door. At one point I peeked back at the counter and the woman on the screen appeared to be "resting her eyes." My order was a karaage curry bentou. The food was tasty enough and the serving quite large, but it wasn't by any stretch of the imagination authentically Japanese cuisine. It wasn't seasoned the way I would expect from karaage, and was just kind of jammed to overflowing in the Styrofoam container instead of the attractive presentation you'd get at a real Japanese spot.
posted by xigxag at 11:36 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
Anyway, after she took my order we chatted for a bit. She seemed perfectly nice and willing to talk about her job. She said she had been doing it for about a month and enjoyed working from home. She mentioned that there were five branches in total, and at first I was a bit alarmed, thinking that she herself had constantly to remotely cashier 5 different counters, switching back and forth, but she said no, that she only had that one restaurant and she had colleagues who handled the other four.
I stayed there for about an hour on a Saturday afternoon, during which time nobody else even walked in the door. At one point I peeked back at the counter and the woman on the screen appeared to be "resting her eyes." My order was a karaage curry bentou. The food was tasty enough and the serving quite large, but it wasn't by any stretch of the imagination authentically Japanese cuisine. It wasn't seasoned the way I would expect from karaage, and was just kind of jammed to overflowing in the Styrofoam container instead of the attractive presentation you'd get at a real Japanese spot.
posted by xigxag at 11:36 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
I got served by a robot at a Nigerian restaurant outside of Baltimore. By served, I mean the robot brought my food past my table to another one three tables away, and a human being had to come out and take the food off of the robot and bring it to my table. The last time I was there, there was sadly no more robot.
posted by pinothefrog at 7:54 AM on April 10 [1 favorite]
posted by pinothefrog at 7:54 AM on April 10 [1 favorite]
Globalization and labor off shoring absolutely is trickle down economics.
And I'm Indian, you really don't have to splain to me how this works.
India's the fifth largest economy in the world by GDP. You're at the top of the heap...actually yes, I suppose that means you should know what trickle down economics is, just like other rich countries.
posted by Galvanic at 11:47 AM on April 10
And I'm Indian, you really don't have to splain to me how this works.
India's the fifth largest economy in the world by GDP. You're at the top of the heap...actually yes, I suppose that means you should know what trickle down economics is, just like other rich countries.
posted by Galvanic at 11:47 AM on April 10
India's the fifth largest economy in the world by GDP. You're at the top of the heap...actually yes, I suppose that means you should know what trickle down economics is, just like other rich countries.
This statement reflects a drastically insufficient grasp of how India’s economy functions.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:43 PM on April 10 [4 favorites]
This statement reflects a drastically insufficient grasp of how India’s economy functions.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:43 PM on April 10 [4 favorites]
India is the 140th ranked country by GDP per capita.
posted by signal at 1:32 PM on April 10 [1 favorite]
posted by signal at 1:32 PM on April 10 [1 favorite]
India is the 140th ranked country by GDP per capita.
GPD isn't allocated on a per-capita basis, so basically so what?
Or if you want to play that game, Midland TX has the highest GDP per-capita in the US, so feel free to go enjoy your time there.
If you want to denigrate India's GPD, the way to do it is say it has the GPD of the state of California, or the most accurate way to describe countries by GDP is the US and China, and everyone else is on the bottom. The US has 6X the GDP of India with 1/6 the population.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:51 PM on April 10
GPD isn't allocated on a per-capita basis, so basically so what?
Or if you want to play that game, Midland TX has the highest GDP per-capita in the US, so feel free to go enjoy your time there.
If you want to denigrate India's GPD, the way to do it is say it has the GPD of the state of California, or the most accurate way to describe countries by GDP is the US and China, and everyone else is on the bottom. The US has 6X the GDP of India with 1/6 the population.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:51 PM on April 10
Now it's controversial to point out that GDP per capita might be an important measure of an economy and people's well being in that economy?
posted by mollweide at 5:15 PM on April 10 [4 favorites]
posted by mollweide at 5:15 PM on April 10 [4 favorites]
(i dozed for a minute mid-thread, what did india's gdp do to piss everybody off?)
posted by mittens at 5:23 PM on April 10 [2 favorites]
posted by mittens at 5:23 PM on April 10 [2 favorites]
Another possibility would be to look at the internal economic structures of countries and realize that the exact same national metric can indicate diametrically opposed economic realities.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:40 PM on April 10 [2 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:40 PM on April 10 [2 favorites]
I think it started like this:
We are unable to be cheerful that someone got a good job that pays well in her context because we don’t know her.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:40 AM on April 10 [11 favorites +] [⚑]
You do know that trickle down economics has been resoundingly bunked many times over?
posted by splitpeasoup at 1:43 AM on April 10 [15 favorites +] [⚑]
That's not what trickle down economics is.
posted by Galvanic at 1:46 AM on April 10 [12 favorites +] [⚑]
Globalization and labor off shoring absolutely is trickle down economics.
And I'm Indian, you really don't have to splain to me how this works.
posted by splitpeasoup at 1:56 AM on April 10 [24 favorites +] [⚑]
If I may step into the fray, I believe trickle-down economics refers to tax-breaks for the wealthy and corporations translating somehow into more economic opportunity/growth for the poor (I guess because we're giving those "job creators" more money to create jobs, but in reality they just hoard it). I dont know if it really is meant to refer to offshoring labor which can be an economic plus for the poorer country, at least in the short-term.
posted by LizBoBiz at 11:11 PM on April 10
We are unable to be cheerful that someone got a good job that pays well in her context because we don’t know her.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:40 AM on April 10 [11 favorites +] [⚑]
You do know that trickle down economics has been resoundingly bunked many times over?
posted by splitpeasoup at 1:43 AM on April 10 [15 favorites +] [⚑]
That's not what trickle down economics is.
posted by Galvanic at 1:46 AM on April 10 [12 favorites +] [⚑]
Globalization and labor off shoring absolutely is trickle down economics.
And I'm Indian, you really don't have to splain to me how this works.
posted by splitpeasoup at 1:56 AM on April 10 [24 favorites +] [⚑]
If I may step into the fray, I believe trickle-down economics refers to tax-breaks for the wealthy and corporations translating somehow into more economic opportunity/growth for the poor (I guess because we're giving those "job creators" more money to create jobs, but in reality they just hoard it). I dont know if it really is meant to refer to offshoring labor which can be an economic plus for the poorer country, at least in the short-term.
posted by LizBoBiz at 11:11 PM on April 10
Agreed - the metaphor employed by trickle-down enthusiasts is 'a rising tide raises all boats' so funneling more money to the rich implies they'll pay their workers more
... but in reality they just hoard it.
posted by Rash at 8:11 AM on April 11
... but in reality they just hoard it.
posted by Rash at 8:11 AM on April 11
GPD isn't allocated on a per-capita basis,… If you want to denigrate India's GPD
I understand each individual word, but have no idea what you're trying to say. Specifically, I don't understand what you mean by "allocated" or "denigrate".
posted by signal at 8:31 AM on April 11
I understand each individual word, but have no idea what you're trying to say. Specifically, I don't understand what you mean by "allocated" or "denigrate".
posted by signal at 8:31 AM on April 11
Also, is measuring economies in Californias like measuring size in football fields? Is there a mili-California, kilo-California, etc?
posted by signal at 8:33 AM on April 11
posted by signal at 8:33 AM on April 11
“ This statement reflects a drastically insufficient grasp of how India’s economy functions.”.
Ah. You going to 'splain it to me now, are you? I’m sure that folks in Nepal, Bangladesh, and other Indian Ocean economies are impressed by an Indian playing the victim card. Y’all are imperial power now and you should stop pretending you’re not.
If I may step into the fray, I believe trickle-down economics refers to tax-breaks for the wealthy and corporations translating somehow into more economic opportunity/growth for the poor (I guess because we're giving those "job creators" more money to create jobs, but in reality they just hoard it). I dont know if it really is meant to refer to offshoring labor which can be an economic plus for the poorer country, at least in the short-term.
Yes, that was my original point.
posted by Galvanic at 2:54 PM on April 11
Ah. You going to 'splain it to me now, are you? I’m sure that folks in Nepal, Bangladesh, and other Indian Ocean economies are impressed by an Indian playing the victim card. Y’all are imperial power now and you should stop pretending you’re not.
If I may step into the fray, I believe trickle-down economics refers to tax-breaks for the wealthy and corporations translating somehow into more economic opportunity/growth for the poor (I guess because we're giving those "job creators" more money to create jobs, but in reality they just hoard it). I dont know if it really is meant to refer to offshoring labor which can be an economic plus for the poorer country, at least in the short-term.
Yes, that was my original point.
posted by Galvanic at 2:54 PM on April 11
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posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:02 AM on April 9 [51 favorites]