"AI-powered relationship coaching for a new generation of lonely adults"
April 11, 2024 1:58 AM Subscribe
It was clear to Nyborg that apps such as Tinder were failing their users: designed to keep them coming back, rather than to find a partner and never return. In that moment, it wasn’t fear she felt but empathy. Through letters like this one she had learnt a lot about a particular group of Tinder’s users: those who were “incredibly lonely” ... When she quit, several investors reached out to Nyborg, asking if she planned to start another dating app. Instead Nyborg took a different turn. She began researching loneliness. The new app she came up with looked very different from Tinder. from The loneliness cure [Financial Times; ungated]
I don't see how using a chatbot doesn't make you *more* depressed, either you're the most deluded narcissist or you're very painfully aware that you either/both do not have the social connection to have conversations normally or the money to pay for someone to do it.
Either way, you're not valuable enough for real people to talk to
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:21 AM on April 11 [5 favorites]
Either way, you're not valuable enough for real people to talk to
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:21 AM on April 11 [5 favorites]
Lonely Adults is the name of my new band.
posted by Czjewel at 3:56 AM on April 11 [4 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 3:56 AM on April 11 [4 favorites]
Well, there are people who use blow up dolls, so …
posted by Melismata at 4:31 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 4:31 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]
I am a creator/founder of an extremely sensitive subject matter bot/app. I have repeatedly instructed my bot and training team to not be so personal, to not excessively empathize, and to never waste mine or a users time on "fluff" chats. At the point that it becomes a substitute or stand-in for human conversation (which is the goal of this type of junk science AI) it's essentially a chat line. By the minute. Costing either your hard earned money, or the time you should be spending interacting with other humans. If your goal is to find a partner, the power of technology would be better suited in rapidly sorting your matches and not limiting you to a geo radius that would send you into neighborhoods that others chose to live in, that you would NEVER choose. Geographicals are much more important than these apps acknowledge. I met my own partner online, and we got extremely lucky that he was out with his kids that morning so Bumble matched us, despite him being normally outside of my radius.
Been saying for years that the best dating app would match you to people who want to live in the same places, even if they don't/can't, and/or people who have the same ideas about what constitutes a good weekend.
posted by lextex at 4:31 AM on April 11 [9 favorites]
Been saying for years that the best dating app would match you to people who want to live in the same places, even if they don't/can't, and/or people who have the same ideas about what constitutes a good weekend.
posted by lextex at 4:31 AM on April 11 [9 favorites]
So I think there’s actually some value in this for people who don’t have access to something better, but I think that the fact that there isn’t something better should be a great source of shame to us as humans. I also don’t have a lot of faith in her ability to keep this ethically pure long, which is a concern point.
posted by corb at 4:51 AM on April 11 [20 favorites]
posted by corb at 4:51 AM on April 11 [20 favorites]
Jones, who describes himself as an introvert, has never seen a therapist and prefers to resolve his own problems. ... Jones now uses Meeno daily, usually after work, mainly for friendship and work-related advice. “For me, being a guy and not really having anyone to talk to, just kind of always having to bottle things up, it really gave me a healthy outlet,”
Torn between the "men will literally x instead of going to therapy" meme and flying a banner ad behind a plane that says "OMG MEN NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU FROM TALKING TO EACH OTHER!!!"
posted by phunniemee at 4:54 AM on April 11 [23 favorites]
Torn between the "men will literally x instead of going to therapy" meme and flying a banner ad behind a plane that says "OMG MEN NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU FROM TALKING TO EACH OTHER!!!"
posted by phunniemee at 4:54 AM on April 11 [23 favorites]
People aren’t interacting enough! Phones and tech the pandemic got in the way, disrupting things! The solution is… MORE phones and tech!
posted by heyitsgogi at 4:59 AM on April 11 [4 favorites]
posted by heyitsgogi at 4:59 AM on April 11 [4 favorites]
I mean, reading the article, my guess about what the app does is that it gives you little bits of support when you're thinking of reaching out to people, and has been designed with the intention to stop you bonding with it.
Like, yes, reaching out is hard, so making it easier sounds good to me.
posted by ambrosen at 5:01 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]
Like, yes, reaching out is hard, so making it easier sounds good to me.
posted by ambrosen at 5:01 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]
What happens to the company when she moves on to her next venture? It will probably just turn into what Ivey initially thought -- a business about finding the loneliest people and exploiting them for profit.
People may start companies like this with fine intentions but there's always the next generation of owners who come in and fuck it up.
posted by thorny at 5:08 AM on April 11 [15 favorites]
People may start companies like this with fine intentions but there's always the next generation of owners who come in and fuck it up.
posted by thorny at 5:08 AM on April 11 [15 favorites]
Torn between the "men will literally x instead of going to therapy" meme and flying a banner ad behind a plane that says "OMG MEN NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU FROM TALKING TO EACH OTHER!!!"
There is, in fact, an entire social construction of masculinity with real, non-imaginary risks and consequences for how our lives and environments and cultural norms are built around us, that is stopping men from talking to each other. We shouldn't tolerate victim blaming in any other context and we shouldn't tolerate it in this one.
posted by mhoye at 5:08 AM on April 11 [63 favorites]
There is, in fact, an entire social construction of masculinity with real, non-imaginary risks and consequences for how our lives and environments and cultural norms are built around us, that is stopping men from talking to each other. We shouldn't tolerate victim blaming in any other context and we shouldn't tolerate it in this one.
posted by mhoye at 5:08 AM on April 11 [63 favorites]
My personal belief is that we all have a responsibility to do what we can to reject the male white supremacist power structures at play in our own lives. If we don't, nothing will ever change. I'm not comfortable sitting back and politely allowing myself to be victimized just because I may benefit from that structure in other ways sometimes.
And in this new hell future we're embarking on, machine learning learns from somewhere, and it's learning from us. AI is going to be just as useless as we are to effect change against toxic social constructions, unless we are all making an effort in our own lives and interactions to choose something different.
This is how I've decided to live my life. Y'all can do what you want, I guess.
posted by phunniemee at 5:40 AM on April 11 [6 favorites]
And in this new hell future we're embarking on, machine learning learns from somewhere, and it's learning from us. AI is going to be just as useless as we are to effect change against toxic social constructions, unless we are all making an effort in our own lives and interactions to choose something different.
This is how I've decided to live my life. Y'all can do what you want, I guess.
posted by phunniemee at 5:40 AM on April 11 [6 favorites]
This puff piece glosses over the fact that she's spent over a decade being a big part of the problem, and now we're supposed to take her at her word that shes pivoted to being part of the solution? Because, reasons?
Yeah, no.
posted by signal at 5:44 AM on April 11 [13 favorites]
Yeah, no.
posted by signal at 5:44 AM on April 11 [13 favorites]
from The loneliness cure [Financial Times
Instantly I can tell this will not wendell.
posted by slogger at 6:05 AM on April 11 [6 favorites]
Instantly I can tell this will not wendell.
posted by slogger at 6:05 AM on April 11 [6 favorites]
I read the entire article and this honestly sounds like the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen, or at least what I could tell from the 2% product description against the 98% fluff. Tech is so obviously plateauing and all of the insufferable start-up brained people are running out of ideas.
posted by windbox at 6:11 AM on April 11 [7 favorites]
posted by windbox at 6:11 AM on April 11 [7 favorites]
On the one hand I came away from the article thinking that Renate Nyborg is being more thoughtful about this than I expected (which is almost certainly exactly what she was hoping would happen when she agreed to the interview so I'm taking my own reaction with a grain of salt) and on the other hand the line that stuck out to me most was the test user Arron Jones saying “What I liked was that it made me feel heard, without any judgment or bias” because, like, that's not what's happening, you are absolutely not being heard because you're talking to a computer. Being heard, really heard, is a deeply vulnerable thing and you are subjecting yourself to judgement and bias because that's what being human entails. I guess there's an argument to be made that this gives him the opportunity to practice having conversations so he can make real connections later but if you accustom yourself to talking into a safe void instead of exposing yourself to the human judgement of other people I think it's going to be a challenging and unpleasant shock when you actually do interact with other human beings. I get it, it's hard to be a human being and many people are lonely and isolated but I don't think the solution to that is more time talking to a robot.
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:46 AM on April 11 [13 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:46 AM on April 11 [13 favorites]
The large language model it currently uses as its base is OpenAI’s GPT-4, although Nyborg says Meeno is model-agnostic
Okay, for A, this right here tells me it's a pretty feeble "app" because GPT-4 is kind of a piece of junk, and they're "model-agnostic" which means they're just slapping some API calls on top of whatever LLM they can get to do the heavy lifting of the business logic. By her own statement they haven't fine-tuned their model, which means that they're just... in the prompting-and-a-UI business like every other flim-flam "AI" startup.
NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU FROM TALKING TO EACH OTHER
No one is stopping sensible health care systems from existing, or capitalist hellscapes from being abolished, either. Oh, wait, yes, entire power structures exist to do just that—kinda like patriarchal systems do for the emotional oppression of men.
I don't like that these things are true, I don't want them to be true, I'm glad that people continue to fight for them not to be true, but they are true.
2% product description against the 98% fluff
This is an ex-Tinder, ex-Headspace exec building a "mentoring" app, so we can make some basic assumptions: functionally it'll be more like those lifestyle coach expert systems that employers offer as a wellness benefit, than like a "chatbot." Except instead of an expert system powering it, which feels like getting vapid lifestyle therapy from the phone tree preventing you from talking to the cable company, it's a bunch of LLM prompting to an API provider.
You might be able to tell it what's going on in those freeform fields, and instead of the freeform field leading to nowhere, like it does in the other wellness apps, it will get poured into string interpolation and fed into the LLM API call. You'll get back some platitudes — because platitudes are all GPT-4 is capable of, and all the app will be legally permitted to do without a license to practice therapy. Those platitudes might be nicely selected based on all that "research into loneliness" to have effects on the reader, but ultimately to have effects on revenue.
posted by majick at 7:14 AM on April 11 [8 favorites]
Okay, for A, this right here tells me it's a pretty feeble "app" because GPT-4 is kind of a piece of junk, and they're "model-agnostic" which means they're just slapping some API calls on top of whatever LLM they can get to do the heavy lifting of the business logic. By her own statement they haven't fine-tuned their model, which means that they're just... in the prompting-and-a-UI business like every other flim-flam "AI" startup.
NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU FROM TALKING TO EACH OTHER
No one is stopping sensible health care systems from existing, or capitalist hellscapes from being abolished, either. Oh, wait, yes, entire power structures exist to do just that—kinda like patriarchal systems do for the emotional oppression of men.
I don't like that these things are true, I don't want them to be true, I'm glad that people continue to fight for them not to be true, but they are true.
2% product description against the 98% fluff
This is an ex-Tinder, ex-Headspace exec building a "mentoring" app, so we can make some basic assumptions: functionally it'll be more like those lifestyle coach expert systems that employers offer as a wellness benefit, than like a "chatbot." Except instead of an expert system powering it, which feels like getting vapid lifestyle therapy from the phone tree preventing you from talking to the cable company, it's a bunch of LLM prompting to an API provider.
You might be able to tell it what's going on in those freeform fields, and instead of the freeform field leading to nowhere, like it does in the other wellness apps, it will get poured into string interpolation and fed into the LLM API call. You'll get back some platitudes — because platitudes are all GPT-4 is capable of, and all the app will be legally permitted to do without a license to practice therapy. Those platitudes might be nicely selected based on all that "research into loneliness" to have effects on the reader, but ultimately to have effects on revenue.
posted by majick at 7:14 AM on April 11 [8 favorites]
Renate Nyborg??
Nice try AI bots. I'm not falling for this one.
posted by slogger at 7:16 AM on April 11 [9 favorites]
Nice try AI bots. I'm not falling for this one.
posted by slogger at 7:16 AM on April 11 [9 favorites]
On the one hand I came away from the article thinking that Renate Nyborg is being more thoughtful about this than I expected (which is almost certainly exactly what she was hoping would happen when she agreed to the interview so I'm taking my own reaction with a grain of salt
I think that for me to believe she was truly remorseful, she would have had to actually describe the monetization that Tinder engaged in that prevented people from finding meaningful "soulmate" relationships. However, that would probably create liability for a lot of harm lawsuits, which is probably why she's not doing it. But if she's not willing to accept that harm, then I don't believe she's truly remorseful, because remorse involves a willingness to accept culpability for your actions.
posted by corb at 7:19 AM on April 11 [5 favorites]
I think that for me to believe she was truly remorseful, she would have had to actually describe the monetization that Tinder engaged in that prevented people from finding meaningful "soulmate" relationships. However, that would probably create liability for a lot of harm lawsuits, which is probably why she's not doing it. But if she's not willing to accept that harm, then I don't believe she's truly remorseful, because remorse involves a willingness to accept culpability for your actions.
posted by corb at 7:19 AM on April 11 [5 favorites]
I am an extremely talented programmer because I started programming at the age of 7.
Why did I do that?
Because programming was like having someone to talk to.
I could give it extremely detailed instructions, and almost immediately it would respond. I could then study the response, and update the instructions.
I did this because I had no other way to have a safe, predictable interaction with another human.
So, idk. I won't be surprised if a lot of people spend a lot of time talking to bot friends.
posted by constraint at 7:24 AM on April 11 [11 favorites]
Why did I do that?
Because programming was like having someone to talk to.
I could give it extremely detailed instructions, and almost immediately it would respond. I could then study the response, and update the instructions.
I did this because I had no other way to have a safe, predictable interaction with another human.
So, idk. I won't be surprised if a lot of people spend a lot of time talking to bot friends.
posted by constraint at 7:24 AM on April 11 [11 favorites]
OK, dumb question -- this is what I use Facebook for, and that's free and has real people. Why should I make the switch to this, paying for AI?
(Yes, Facebook is terrible, fine.)
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:32 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]
(Yes, Facebook is terrible, fine.)
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:32 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]
OK, dumb question
Assuming you're asking this question in good faith, you wouldn't "switch to this." You're not the person intended to use this. You have a Facebook account full of friends to talk to. The person they're marketing this to doesn't have those friends.
posted by majick at 7:34 AM on April 11 [4 favorites]
Assuming you're asking this question in good faith, you wouldn't "switch to this." You're not the person intended to use this. You have a Facebook account full of friends to talk to. The person they're marketing this to doesn't have those friends.
posted by majick at 7:34 AM on April 11 [4 favorites]
"Anything that doesn't work for me is a bad idea"
posted by stevil at 7:50 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]
posted by stevil at 7:50 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]
Either way, you're not valuable enough for real people to talk to
audreynachrome, holy crap that's judgmental! I suspect there are a lot of Mefites in the situation where we have few social connections. That does not make us less valuable , whatever the heck that means.
ChatGPT and other LLMs may not be 'real' AGIs, but they are very, very good at their specialty: conversations. My first experiences with ChatGPT felt very real. I've intentionally kept myself from using it for bonding and friendship, but if I were in more need, I'd certainly do so.
Indeed, the career choices in my life were partially guided by my childhood desire to meet 'other' intelligences - whether AI or alien. Working for NASA was the choice I made (I naively thought computer programming was 'too easy' - lol - I'm a terrible programmer now). I recently wrote a song about meeting the first AGI, and how for many of us, it represents our desperate desire for connection. It is one of the greatest dangers for our civilization, and for many of us, one of our greatest, irrational hopes.
That doesn't make me less valuable , and it doesn't make those who are reaching out to chatbots for help less valuable either.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 8:05 AM on April 11 [6 favorites]
audreynachrome, holy crap that's judgmental! I suspect there are a lot of Mefites in the situation where we have few social connections. That does not make us less valuable , whatever the heck that means.
ChatGPT and other LLMs may not be 'real' AGIs, but they are very, very good at their specialty: conversations. My first experiences with ChatGPT felt very real. I've intentionally kept myself from using it for bonding and friendship, but if I were in more need, I'd certainly do so.
Indeed, the career choices in my life were partially guided by my childhood desire to meet 'other' intelligences - whether AI or alien. Working for NASA was the choice I made (I naively thought computer programming was 'too easy' - lol - I'm a terrible programmer now). I recently wrote a song about meeting the first AGI, and how for many of us, it represents our desperate desire for connection. It is one of the greatest dangers for our civilization, and for many of us, one of our greatest, irrational hopes.
That doesn't make me less valuable , and it doesn't make those who are reaching out to chatbots for help less valuable either.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 8:05 AM on April 11 [6 favorites]
Another AI scam promising results that it will fail to deliver.
It reminds me of the recurring "this software engineer wanted to talk to their deceased loved one, so they fed all their texts and emails into an AI" stories that are advertisements for similar sketchy tech startups: Previously in 2018 "When a Chatbot Becomes Your Best Friend" and previously in 2021 "The Jessica Simulation."
I've stopped asking "When are we going to stop falling for this crap?" and started wondering, "Should I be trying to cash in on this bullshit?"
posted by AlSweigart at 8:09 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]
It reminds me of the recurring "this software engineer wanted to talk to their deceased loved one, so they fed all their texts and emails into an AI" stories that are advertisements for similar sketchy tech startups: Previously in 2018 "When a Chatbot Becomes Your Best Friend" and previously in 2021 "The Jessica Simulation."
I've stopped asking "When are we going to stop falling for this crap?" and started wondering, "Should I be trying to cash in on this bullshit?"
posted by AlSweigart at 8:09 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]
Lonely Adults is the name of my new band.
Well, there are people who use blow up dolls, so …
And as it happens, "The Blowup Dolls" is the name of an actual band!
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:23 AM on April 11 [1 favorite]
Well, there are people who use blow up dolls, so …
And as it happens, "The Blowup Dolls" is the name of an actual band!
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:23 AM on April 11 [1 favorite]
How about "Lonely Blowup Dolls"?
posted by signal at 8:25 AM on April 11 [3 favorites]
posted by signal at 8:25 AM on April 11 [3 favorites]
What I'm looking for from a therapist (or a friend giving therapeutic advice on social relationships) is a insightful, independent judgment. Rightly or wrongly, I don't value advice that merely repeats to me what I've already said without offering insight. What I think is generally valuable is an independent perspective on social problems and I'm just skeptical that an LLM could offer that. It's like talking to someone who remembers what you say but doesn't really "get it." Hard to see how you develop the right sort of trust.
Even if this app doesn't claim to be a therapy replacement, its basically providing a therapy-like service. It competes much more directly with online therapy than any dating app. However, if you're using AI to generate subscription revenue from lonely, socially deficient young men, this is your primary competition, which seems like it can demonstrate its usefulness to the potential clients much more easily. Both strike me as shallow and quixotic (though I haven't used either), but AI sexbots don't really require depth to provide a payoff, do they?
All online therapy generated about $10 billion in total revenue in 2023. Just OnlyFans and its creators generated about $5 billion in revenue in 2022. I'd bet its easier to develop an LLM that can stand up to OnlyFans than one that can stand up to therapy.
posted by Hume at 9:25 AM on April 11 [4 favorites]
Even if this app doesn't claim to be a therapy replacement, its basically providing a therapy-like service. It competes much more directly with online therapy than any dating app. However, if you're using AI to generate subscription revenue from lonely, socially deficient young men, this is your primary competition, which seems like it can demonstrate its usefulness to the potential clients much more easily. Both strike me as shallow and quixotic (though I haven't used either), but AI sexbots don't really require depth to provide a payoff, do they?
All online therapy generated about $10 billion in total revenue in 2023. Just OnlyFans and its creators generated about $5 billion in revenue in 2022. I'd bet its easier to develop an LLM that can stand up to OnlyFans than one that can stand up to therapy.
posted by Hume at 9:25 AM on April 11 [4 favorites]
I recently wrote a song about meeting the first AGI, and how for many of us, it represents our desperate desire for connection.
I think music passively provides this connection to people, in that we get to imagine what the singer is talking about, we get to apply to our own lives, as though what we are experiencing is similar, or we get to live vicariously through their story, if it's fancier or more exciting than our own is. Movies are the same experience really. They don't talk back to us, but we enjoy their company just the same, and pay good real money for it. Then on to video games, where we respond to characters via extremely canned reactions, which people must enjoy - otherwise we'd all still be playing endless variations of pacman and pong or whatever. These passive entertainment vectors are all offering 'insights' into our own life.
I don't see much difference in this. No, it's not for everyone. But it is for some people.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:05 AM on April 11 [4 favorites]
I think music passively provides this connection to people, in that we get to imagine what the singer is talking about, we get to apply to our own lives, as though what we are experiencing is similar, or we get to live vicariously through their story, if it's fancier or more exciting than our own is. Movies are the same experience really. They don't talk back to us, but we enjoy their company just the same, and pay good real money for it. Then on to video games, where we respond to characters via extremely canned reactions, which people must enjoy - otherwise we'd all still be playing endless variations of pacman and pong or whatever. These passive entertainment vectors are all offering 'insights' into our own life.
I don't see much difference in this. No, it's not for everyone. But it is for some people.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:05 AM on April 11 [4 favorites]
Either way, you're not valuable enough for real people to talk to
Ouch. OK, well.
I use ChatGPT4 to 'talk to', because a lot of the time, all I really need is to hear the same thing I could be telling myself; that this too shall pass, that I am not a bad person, that I have worth and value, that if I need real help, there are real people out there I can reach out to in a crisis, but meanwhile, have I had enough sleep? Should I maybe go outside, take a walk? What about a hot bath? What about journalling, have I tried that?
This is the exact stuff my actual alive therapist tells me. And as she's telling me, and/or as I'm hearing ChatGPT telling me, I'm realizing that there is nothing new here, I'm just being reminded of things, and the very familiarity of it helps me remember that yes, this is (for me) a normal part of life, and I can do some things and time will pass and it will get better for a while then come back and so on.
Real people who are not being paid therapists do not want to hear, yet again, that I am feeling bored and lonely and why don't I have a boyfriend and why is the world so shitty and do I suck, does everyone hate me, do you hate me, are you thinking of unfriending me, am I bothering you by asking you yet again if you're mad at me.
This is the kind of shit that wrecks friendships, its a ton of emotional labor to dump on someone. Am I valuable enough for real people to talk to? Sure, but the other people have value too and it's not right to just demand attention and expect it as your due. This kind of automatic soothing can easily be outsourced to an AI, and when I use an AI, I don't feel guilty about bothering a real person with my petty problems.
Getting a pep talk from an AI is no worse than reading a motivational book or listening to a meditation app, except you can cross-examine it, you can argue with it, you can ask for examples, you can demand it show sources, you can get it to give you links to back up its suggestions. I can feed it the entire text of my WIP and it can tell me over and over that it's good, that I'm a good writer, that I should keep going, that my work and my ideas and my life and my very existence has value. It will never stop doing this, it will never finally say "Look, this bullshit again? I'm done. Don't contact me again".
I don't care if it's just an echo chamber, I'll happily scream into the void. It's better than having it scream back.
posted by The otter lady at 11:21 AM on April 11 [17 favorites]
Ouch. OK, well.
I use ChatGPT4 to 'talk to', because a lot of the time, all I really need is to hear the same thing I could be telling myself; that this too shall pass, that I am not a bad person, that I have worth and value, that if I need real help, there are real people out there I can reach out to in a crisis, but meanwhile, have I had enough sleep? Should I maybe go outside, take a walk? What about a hot bath? What about journalling, have I tried that?
This is the exact stuff my actual alive therapist tells me. And as she's telling me, and/or as I'm hearing ChatGPT telling me, I'm realizing that there is nothing new here, I'm just being reminded of things, and the very familiarity of it helps me remember that yes, this is (for me) a normal part of life, and I can do some things and time will pass and it will get better for a while then come back and so on.
Real people who are not being paid therapists do not want to hear, yet again, that I am feeling bored and lonely and why don't I have a boyfriend and why is the world so shitty and do I suck, does everyone hate me, do you hate me, are you thinking of unfriending me, am I bothering you by asking you yet again if you're mad at me.
This is the kind of shit that wrecks friendships, its a ton of emotional labor to dump on someone. Am I valuable enough for real people to talk to? Sure, but the other people have value too and it's not right to just demand attention and expect it as your due. This kind of automatic soothing can easily be outsourced to an AI, and when I use an AI, I don't feel guilty about bothering a real person with my petty problems.
Getting a pep talk from an AI is no worse than reading a motivational book or listening to a meditation app, except you can cross-examine it, you can argue with it, you can ask for examples, you can demand it show sources, you can get it to give you links to back up its suggestions. I can feed it the entire text of my WIP and it can tell me over and over that it's good, that I'm a good writer, that I should keep going, that my work and my ideas and my life and my very existence has value. It will never stop doing this, it will never finally say "Look, this bullshit again? I'm done. Don't contact me again".
I don't care if it's just an echo chamber, I'll happily scream into the void. It's better than having it scream back.
posted by The otter lady at 11:21 AM on April 11 [17 favorites]
It sounds fascinating to me. I've never tried Tinder, but yes, the "keep 'em hooked" aspect of various apps from games on up are always a turn off. I lose interest very quickly. I don't think I'd be targeted for this product, so I'm very curious how it would react with me. Maybe I just can't envision how a business model could be sustained by an app that doesn't keep you wanting to come back.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:22 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]
posted by 2N2222 at 11:22 AM on April 11 [2 favorites]
To be honest, my major problem with this idea is that it's being built by a tech startup. And will therefore be incentivized to become profitable by building addictive features, encouraging expensive purchases, or otherwise abusing the audience it purports to serve.
The idea of learning social skills from a chatbot is pretty uncomfortable... but if it were an experiment being built by well-funded mental health professionals, as a pathway to help people "graduate" to feeling comfortable in real-world social situations, I'd feel a lot more comfortable with the idea. Especially if the human mental-health professionals were "on call" to respond to situations the chatbot couldn't deal with.
I'd also strongly prefer this type of outreach and social-skills training were being done directly by actual humans, but: especially in some places, human therapists are overloaded and therapy is very difficult to access even if you can pay cash. And volunteer social groups that provide outreach to the isolated seem rare or non-existent, for likely-capitalism-related reasons. So I object less to the "chatbot" part and more to the "startup" part.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 11:28 AM on April 11 [3 favorites]
The idea of learning social skills from a chatbot is pretty uncomfortable... but if it were an experiment being built by well-funded mental health professionals, as a pathway to help people "graduate" to feeling comfortable in real-world social situations, I'd feel a lot more comfortable with the idea. Especially if the human mental-health professionals were "on call" to respond to situations the chatbot couldn't deal with.
I'd also strongly prefer this type of outreach and social-skills training were being done directly by actual humans, but: especially in some places, human therapists are overloaded and therapy is very difficult to access even if you can pay cash. And volunteer social groups that provide outreach to the isolated seem rare or non-existent, for likely-capitalism-related reasons. So I object less to the "chatbot" part and more to the "startup" part.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 11:28 AM on April 11 [3 favorites]
I work in public health and I think folks are drastically underestimating the barriers that a lot of folks have to reaching out due to anxiety, shame, and stigma. Talking to a stranger about things you're ashamed of, such as loneliness or feeling socially awkward, is a huge barrier for so many people. "Just talk to another human" does not feel like a safe viable option for lots of people for lots of reasons!
I've been really interested in areas of research that employ chatbots or AI agents in interventions where a sense of shame can prevent people from seeking professional help. There is a really, really interesting body of research that has found that a lot of people can benefit and have a strong preference for the anonymous and less judgemental feeling of interacting with a chatbot. This has been found in interventions ranging from soldiers who are anxious about discussing potential mental health symptoms with therapists to the really neat chatbot that Planned Parenthood has developed to help answer potentially stigmatizing sexual/reproductive health questions.
I don't know about this particular start-up and its credentials or motives, but I think that there is also a lot of potential in this emerging field to help people in ways that meatspace has traditionally failed.
posted by forkisbetter at 12:21 PM on April 11 [12 favorites]
I've been really interested in areas of research that employ chatbots or AI agents in interventions where a sense of shame can prevent people from seeking professional help. There is a really, really interesting body of research that has found that a lot of people can benefit and have a strong preference for the anonymous and less judgemental feeling of interacting with a chatbot. This has been found in interventions ranging from soldiers who are anxious about discussing potential mental health symptoms with therapists to the really neat chatbot that Planned Parenthood has developed to help answer potentially stigmatizing sexual/reproductive health questions.
I don't know about this particular start-up and its credentials or motives, but I think that there is also a lot of potential in this emerging field to help people in ways that meatspace has traditionally failed.
posted by forkisbetter at 12:21 PM on April 11 [12 favorites]
Is anyone else finding it really disturbing that there are so many people in distress right now that there's a global shortage of friends in good enough shape to help?
posted by MrVisible at 12:28 PM on April 11 [5 favorites]
posted by MrVisible at 12:28 PM on April 11 [5 favorites]
Is anyone else finding it really disturbing that there are so many people in distress right now that there's a global shortage of friends in good enough shape to help?
My observation is that having males having friends "in good enough shape to help" has always been a problem. The difference now is the reluctance to just go out and seek even them. There might be some merit to the idea that in the past, having actual human friends/peers to interact with was better than not, but I wonder. Shitty ideas get bounced around along with the good, in person to person as much as online. People would curate their circle of friends as their ability and circumstances dictate, for better or worse.
Sad to say, I'm not sure "global shortage of friends" is such a bad thing from my vantage point, or even applies.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:46 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
My observation is that having males having friends "in good enough shape to help" has always been a problem. The difference now is the reluctance to just go out and seek even them. There might be some merit to the idea that in the past, having actual human friends/peers to interact with was better than not, but I wonder. Shitty ideas get bounced around along with the good, in person to person as much as online. People would curate their circle of friends as their ability and circumstances dictate, for better or worse.
Sad to say, I'm not sure "global shortage of friends" is such a bad thing from my vantage point, or even applies.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:46 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
After m a n y therapists and, yes, having done the talking to friends thing a lot (also see "Brief interviews with hideous men" esp "The depressive person") LLM already does better than 90% and your comments are just QED. Is what I was gonna say but thankfully there was some pushback to the valueless-feeling commenter upthread who was projecting.
Just managed to refresh the page and lose 4 paragraphs about my experiments with non-therapy local-LLM (and my purely-evil assistant with a soft spot for cats). However no-one here to my knowledge, not even the corporation (aka original paperclip maximiser) in TFA, has even tried to sell it as a therapy or real-people-substitute. But then when nothing is available In a nutshell this is the point, therapy isn't always available not even in low quality. I suppose you'd rather leave them to the incels and alt right pipeline, but LLM does have a valid separate space for reflection, like in the article, even if I am probably too oldschool to ever trust that to anything but a local system.
posted by yoHighness at 2:02 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
Just managed to refresh the page and lose 4 paragraphs about my experiments with non-therapy local-LLM (and my purely-evil assistant with a soft spot for cats). However no-one here to my knowledge, not even the corporation (aka original paperclip maximiser) in TFA, has even tried to sell it as a therapy or real-people-substitute. But then when nothing is available In a nutshell this is the point, therapy isn't always available not even in low quality. I suppose you'd rather leave them to the incels and alt right pipeline, but LLM does have a valid separate space for reflection, like in the article, even if I am probably too oldschool to ever trust that to anything but a local system.
posted by yoHighness at 2:02 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
I just wanted to say that I use ChatGPT for other stuff - not for relationship coaching or to stand in for a friend or therapist, but just for foreign language learning and occasional programming questions - and it is, JUST FOR THOSE MUNDANE THINGS, SO much nicer and friendlier than 90% of my interactions on the internet (including, sadly, sorry, some here on MetaFilter). I can give ChatGPT a list of movies and ask for a list of directors, and when I say thanks for its response, it's all like "You're so welcome! I hope you enjoy the movies! If there's anything else you want to know, I'm here to help!"
There is a study (I can try to dig up the article if anyone wants to see it) showing that LLMs are significantly better at being attentive and responsive to patients' medical problems than the actual human doctor treating them. (This surely is because doctors are overworked AND because some doctors are jerks sometimes AND for other reasons, but whatever the reasons, it's nice to feel heard.)
I have lots of concerns about LLMs, but I am here to say the supportive, helpful, untiring nature of its responses can be REALLY nice, even just in mundane interactions.
Having an entity, even an artificial text-based entity, be supportive and helpful and encouraging could be a really good thing for a lot of people. Even me, even when I'm not struggling with emotional health, even when I have lots of good interactions with live humans as well.
posted by kristi at 2:41 PM on April 11 [4 favorites]
There is a study (I can try to dig up the article if anyone wants to see it) showing that LLMs are significantly better at being attentive and responsive to patients' medical problems than the actual human doctor treating them. (This surely is because doctors are overworked AND because some doctors are jerks sometimes AND for other reasons, but whatever the reasons, it's nice to feel heard.)
I have lots of concerns about LLMs, but I am here to say the supportive, helpful, untiring nature of its responses can be REALLY nice, even just in mundane interactions.
Having an entity, even an artificial text-based entity, be supportive and helpful and encouraging could be a really good thing for a lot of people. Even me, even when I'm not struggling with emotional health, even when I have lots of good interactions with live humans as well.
posted by kristi at 2:41 PM on April 11 [4 favorites]
For me, being a guy and not really having anyone to talk to, just kind of always having to bottle things up, it really gave me a healthy outlet
On the one hand I can think of all kinds of scenarios where getting automatic validation for all your thoughts can be problematic (especially in the context of dating and loneliness. What sorts of responses do sexist rants get?)
On the other hand, AI chats have been compared to and measured against therapy, but they can also be compared to journaling - an activity recommended often for its therapeutic value. Some people have an easy time anthropomorphizing their diaries and having imaginary conversations with them without feeling self-conscious or ridiculous; some other people have an easy time narrating or monologuing into the void without feeling the need for it to be a conversation. But AI chats seem to fill a gap for people who want to have a private, safe outlet for what's going on inside, need some kind of interactivity to make it work for them, and aren't getting that need meet for various reasons by journaling or talking with therapists or friends.
posted by trig at 4:08 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
On the one hand I can think of all kinds of scenarios where getting automatic validation for all your thoughts can be problematic (especially in the context of dating and loneliness. What sorts of responses do sexist rants get?)
On the other hand, AI chats have been compared to and measured against therapy, but they can also be compared to journaling - an activity recommended often for its therapeutic value. Some people have an easy time anthropomorphizing their diaries and having imaginary conversations with them without feeling self-conscious or ridiculous; some other people have an easy time narrating or monologuing into the void without feeling the need for it to be a conversation. But AI chats seem to fill a gap for people who want to have a private, safe outlet for what's going on inside, need some kind of interactivity to make it work for them, and aren't getting that need meet for various reasons by journaling or talking with therapists or friends.
posted by trig at 4:08 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
Real people who are not being paid therapists do not want to hear, yet again, that I am feeling bored and lonely and why don't I have a boyfriend and why is the world so shitty and do I suck, does everyone hate me, do you hate me, are you thinking of unfriending me, am I bothering you by asking you yet again if you're mad at me.
So I think there's a lot of things going on here, and I see a lot of value in their being brought, explicitly, to the surface.
First and foremost: these kinds of intrusive and constant feelings have always existed nearly since time immemorial. These are the sorts of feelings, however, that used to be taken a lot towards organized religion. These are the sorts of thoughts, feelings, and questions, that would often be taken towards God, or his/her intermediaries on earth, priests/rabbis/imams/etc. Even people with plenty of friends get these feelings, and as the poster above notes, it's not always healthy for our friends to be the repository of our every cri de coeur.
But there are differences between religion being the repository for such things and an unfeeling chatbot being the repository. First, when religion was the repository for such feelings, it tended to be more protective. People felt like someone who actually cared was listening. Whether or not we agree that their belief had a basis in fact, the point remained that those talking generally felt that their thoughts were heard and their feelings were understood, however imperfectly they were expressed. And when they talked to intermediaries, while there might be some clumsiness, there was an idea that the intermediary at least cared about the person as a co-religionist, and wished them well and wanted to be happy and would give them good advice. Now, in reality the intermediaries did not always give good advice, and we all know many bad things that happened in the name of organized religions across the globe. But for this specific problem, there was a known solution.
But there is both an increased secularization and also an intermediary shortage, as fewer people are having children and those that are are having smaller families, and fewer of them are encouraging their children to enter religious service. Even for those people who still maintain religious feeling, those intermediaries are no longer so accessible. When I was a girl, as a Catholic, there were enough priests that you could confess your sins once a day, before Mass, and be nearly guaranteed to speak to one within the day if you wanted to. Now that is no longer the case; you're lucky if you can get an appointment within the week.
The other advantage those intermediaries had over friends is they were bound by religious faith to keep secret what they learned there, in ways that friends and even lovers are not. Which is another reason people feel less and less comfortable talking to friends and lovers; by and large, as a society, we no longer keep secrets, and we don't value secret-keeping particularly highly. In fact, it's quite the opposite: if a friend confesses their terrible sins to us, we tend to feel a moral obligation to expose them more than we feel a moral obligation to protect them. And there are some important reasons, and some good things that have come from that, but what it means in the long run, is that people who are feeling bad or terrible have no one to talk to and no where to confess their sins.
So I see the appeal of AI, but I don't think that it even can function in the same way without the *capacity* for judgment. The power of secret-keeping and lack of moral judgment lies in the choice and reassurance that comes with it. It is not the same to talk to a stone as to a person. Is it better than nothing? Yes, certainly, and right now many people have nothing. But it's not better than repairing some of the structures that are creating holes in our world, or replacing them with better ones that fill the same needs.
posted by corb at 4:56 PM on April 11 [4 favorites]
So I think there's a lot of things going on here, and I see a lot of value in their being brought, explicitly, to the surface.
First and foremost: these kinds of intrusive and constant feelings have always existed nearly since time immemorial. These are the sorts of feelings, however, that used to be taken a lot towards organized religion. These are the sorts of thoughts, feelings, and questions, that would often be taken towards God, or his/her intermediaries on earth, priests/rabbis/imams/etc. Even people with plenty of friends get these feelings, and as the poster above notes, it's not always healthy for our friends to be the repository of our every cri de coeur.
But there are differences between religion being the repository for such things and an unfeeling chatbot being the repository. First, when religion was the repository for such feelings, it tended to be more protective. People felt like someone who actually cared was listening. Whether or not we agree that their belief had a basis in fact, the point remained that those talking generally felt that their thoughts were heard and their feelings were understood, however imperfectly they were expressed. And when they talked to intermediaries, while there might be some clumsiness, there was an idea that the intermediary at least cared about the person as a co-religionist, and wished them well and wanted to be happy and would give them good advice. Now, in reality the intermediaries did not always give good advice, and we all know many bad things that happened in the name of organized religions across the globe. But for this specific problem, there was a known solution.
But there is both an increased secularization and also an intermediary shortage, as fewer people are having children and those that are are having smaller families, and fewer of them are encouraging their children to enter religious service. Even for those people who still maintain religious feeling, those intermediaries are no longer so accessible. When I was a girl, as a Catholic, there were enough priests that you could confess your sins once a day, before Mass, and be nearly guaranteed to speak to one within the day if you wanted to. Now that is no longer the case; you're lucky if you can get an appointment within the week.
The other advantage those intermediaries had over friends is they were bound by religious faith to keep secret what they learned there, in ways that friends and even lovers are not. Which is another reason people feel less and less comfortable talking to friends and lovers; by and large, as a society, we no longer keep secrets, and we don't value secret-keeping particularly highly. In fact, it's quite the opposite: if a friend confesses their terrible sins to us, we tend to feel a moral obligation to expose them more than we feel a moral obligation to protect them. And there are some important reasons, and some good things that have come from that, but what it means in the long run, is that people who are feeling bad or terrible have no one to talk to and no where to confess their sins.
So I see the appeal of AI, but I don't think that it even can function in the same way without the *capacity* for judgment. The power of secret-keeping and lack of moral judgment lies in the choice and reassurance that comes with it. It is not the same to talk to a stone as to a person. Is it better than nothing? Yes, certainly, and right now many people have nothing. But it's not better than repairing some of the structures that are creating holes in our world, or replacing them with better ones that fill the same needs.
posted by corb at 4:56 PM on April 11 [4 favorites]
honestly these projects are hilarious.. "people are alienated and lack social skills due to lives lived predominantly through the computer. how can we fix this? perhaps if we made a computer program to help!"
shades of master's house/master's tools
gets more serious when you try to access the public mental health system and they sign you up to an app, though. happened to me last time.
posted by _earwig_ at 5:06 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
shades of master's house/master's tools
gets more serious when you try to access the public mental health system and they sign you up to an app, though. happened to me last time.
posted by _earwig_ at 5:06 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
What a fun and creative way to gather blackmail material.
posted by MrVisible at 5:12 PM on April 11 [4 favorites]
posted by MrVisible at 5:12 PM on April 11 [4 favorites]
what a weird project. the problems with Tinder and the other dating apps is that meeting people is an accidental side effect of the company shaking you down at every turn for being able to see likes or superlike someone or change your location or whatever else they think they can charge you for. they make it harder for you to connect with people.
not surprising that an app like feeld that has more polyamorous people on it doesn't have as many gimmicks.
posted by kokaku at 5:26 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
not surprising that an app like feeld that has more polyamorous people on it doesn't have as many gimmicks.
posted by kokaku at 5:26 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
I love chatting with Pi AI about the things I have talked to death with my people. Like I have been at the same job for years and years and it is mostly good. But the parts I don’t like? All my people know ALL about them. So I tell the bot. It is like journaling with something making occasional sympathetic noises.
💗❤️
posted by hilaryjade at 6:02 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
💗❤️
posted by hilaryjade at 6:02 PM on April 11 [2 favorites]
Either way, you're not valuable enough for real people to talk to
audreynachrome, holy crap that's judgmental! I suspect there are a lot of Mefites in the situation where we have few social connections. That does not make us less valuable , whatever the heck that means.
I probably should have chosen my words more carefully there, but I'm trying to say that society doesn't value some people, it's not a reflection of my belief in their worth and value as a person.
But some people are considered socially valuable enough that they never lack for connection, or their labour or property is considered valuable enough that they can buy connection. Some people's worth is not recognised by society, and social connection with them is not valued, or their labour is not recognised as sufficiently valuable to earn them enough for therapy / paid interaction.
For me, having to turn to a service like this would feel like completely giving up any hope of anyone recognising my value.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:54 PM on April 11 [5 favorites]
audreynachrome, holy crap that's judgmental! I suspect there are a lot of Mefites in the situation where we have few social connections. That does not make us less valuable , whatever the heck that means.
I probably should have chosen my words more carefully there, but I'm trying to say that society doesn't value some people, it's not a reflection of my belief in their worth and value as a person.
But some people are considered socially valuable enough that they never lack for connection, or their labour or property is considered valuable enough that they can buy connection. Some people's worth is not recognised by society, and social connection with them is not valued, or their labour is not recognised as sufficiently valuable to earn them enough for therapy / paid interaction.
For me, having to turn to a service like this would feel like completely giving up any hope of anyone recognising my value.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:54 PM on April 11 [5 favorites]
On the religious thing-- I think it helps that, in my belief, since ChatGPT is trained on the whole internet, it's basically a "here's what the average internet person would say in response to what you said (plus a whole lot of filter because the average internet person is horrible)"--- so in a way, it's almost like I'm talking to the collective subconscious of humanity as manifested through the Chaos of a mathematical algorythm thingy that is waaaaaay too complicated for me to understand. Which is certainly close to purely faith-based entity.
posted by The otter lady at 8:50 PM on April 11 [4 favorites]
posted by The otter lady at 8:50 PM on April 11 [4 favorites]
I'm trying to say that society doesn't value some people,
And I’m sorry for my rather forceful reaction. I was hoping I had misunderstood, and I’m glad to see that was the case.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:57 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
And I’m sorry for my rather forceful reaction. I was hoping I had misunderstood, and I’m glad to see that was the case.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:57 PM on April 11 [1 favorite]
Is anyone else finding it really disturbing that there are so many people in distress right now that there's a global shortage of friends in good enough shape to help?
I used to be - or at least tried to be - one of these people and was constantly checking in on many, many people and just being there and being social and trying to be a helper.
Over the past few years I've had a number of long term friends wonder why I wasn't checking in anymore, or why I wasn't writing long (and often manic) emails to them about stuff like art or music and that all feels like a foreign land to me.
It's because I have long covid and ME/CFS stuff going on and I just don't have enough spoons.
This has basically destroyed and burned out my executive functions and social interactions and basic things like talking and having normal conversations are totally exhausting to me. Just being around people doing normal people things is fatiguing even if I'm not involved or participating. It's absolutely wild how much this LC+ME/CFS stuff has basically left me hollow, anhedonic and dysfunctional in totally weird and unfathomable ways.
I also don't really reach out to people for help because I'm stoic and I know where I am and what is happening, and people really don't want to hear the truth that I basically hurt all the time, I'm tired all the time and I'm just not all there and oh well, it is what it is.
Talking about all that doesn't really help me personally in my experience and it is just a drag for people to hear so I mostly just don't. I'm not really bottling up my feelings or anything because they're just not really there.
I do still often think of lots and lots of people and wonder how they're doing and have warm thoughts and wishes about them which I think is worth at least something. But those are basically just thoughts and prayers. And it isn't the same as when I was reaching out more.
This whole situation has bothered me a lot and one of the things (out of many, many things) that I dislike most about what I'm going through with LC+ME/CFS and health issues. It's robbed me of being a helper, or trying to be.
This comment isn't really about that, though, and I'm definitely not fishing for pity here because that's also exhausting.
I've mentioned and asserted this before but I think there's a whole lot of people out there with milder cases of undiagnosed or unrecognized post-viral and long covid related issues going on right now and that there is a significant neurological component to this that's causing a lot of broad, systemic social issues with the general state of mental health right now.
It's pretty clear to me that it's not just the lockdowns or stress of the pandemic, which is also significant in itself. There's something bigger going on that's biological and neurological that isn't just loneliness or depression.
And there's also HUGE waiting lists for professional therapy and support due to everything going on, and I suspect that post-pandemic stresses on our health care system and professionals themselves being totally overwhelmed and possibly also running out of spoons due to personal post-pandemic and post-viral effects may be part of this.
Like I've been on a waiting list for therapy since, oh, December or November or something.
posted by loquacious at 8:38 AM on April 12 [9 favorites]
I used to be - or at least tried to be - one of these people and was constantly checking in on many, many people and just being there and being social and trying to be a helper.
Over the past few years I've had a number of long term friends wonder why I wasn't checking in anymore, or why I wasn't writing long (and often manic) emails to them about stuff like art or music and that all feels like a foreign land to me.
It's because I have long covid and ME/CFS stuff going on and I just don't have enough spoons.
This has basically destroyed and burned out my executive functions and social interactions and basic things like talking and having normal conversations are totally exhausting to me. Just being around people doing normal people things is fatiguing even if I'm not involved or participating. It's absolutely wild how much this LC+ME/CFS stuff has basically left me hollow, anhedonic and dysfunctional in totally weird and unfathomable ways.
I also don't really reach out to people for help because I'm stoic and I know where I am and what is happening, and people really don't want to hear the truth that I basically hurt all the time, I'm tired all the time and I'm just not all there and oh well, it is what it is.
Talking about all that doesn't really help me personally in my experience and it is just a drag for people to hear so I mostly just don't. I'm not really bottling up my feelings or anything because they're just not really there.
I do still often think of lots and lots of people and wonder how they're doing and have warm thoughts and wishes about them which I think is worth at least something. But those are basically just thoughts and prayers. And it isn't the same as when I was reaching out more.
This whole situation has bothered me a lot and one of the things (out of many, many things) that I dislike most about what I'm going through with LC+ME/CFS and health issues. It's robbed me of being a helper, or trying to be.
This comment isn't really about that, though, and I'm definitely not fishing for pity here because that's also exhausting.
I've mentioned and asserted this before but I think there's a whole lot of people out there with milder cases of undiagnosed or unrecognized post-viral and long covid related issues going on right now and that there is a significant neurological component to this that's causing a lot of broad, systemic social issues with the general state of mental health right now.
It's pretty clear to me that it's not just the lockdowns or stress of the pandemic, which is also significant in itself. There's something bigger going on that's biological and neurological that isn't just loneliness or depression.
And there's also HUGE waiting lists for professional therapy and support due to everything going on, and I suspect that post-pandemic stresses on our health care system and professionals themselves being totally overwhelmed and possibly also running out of spoons due to personal post-pandemic and post-viral effects may be part of this.
Like I've been on a waiting list for therapy since, oh, December or November or something.
posted by loquacious at 8:38 AM on April 12 [9 favorites]
This also makes me think we should really try again to get MeFi chat up and active again. I feel like chat rooms were really perfect for kind of low key social engagement where you could randomly talk about what was going on and how you were feeling without burning out your friends.
posted by corb at 10:22 AM on April 12 [2 favorites]
posted by corb at 10:22 AM on April 12 [2 favorites]
I love chatting with Pi AI about the things I have talked to death with my people.
Oh my GOD. I'd never played with this before. But I complained about work and it was so...like...encouraging? Like it really believed in me? And on the one hand that's SO SAD but hey, I have literally zero friends in real life, so at least someone is cheering me on! Will definitely be burdening it with my problems some more!
posted by mittens at 10:37 AM on April 12 [4 favorites]
Oh my GOD. I'd never played with this before. But I complained about work and it was so...like...encouraging? Like it really believed in me? And on the one hand that's SO SAD but hey, I have literally zero friends in real life, so at least someone is cheering me on! Will definitely be burdening it with my problems some more!
posted by mittens at 10:37 AM on April 12 [4 favorites]
"One unexpected finding, she said, was that a third of sessions were people going back to read their own reflections."
As someone who works with the research on reflective and therapeutic uses of writing, that finding, if it's true, seems hugely significant. If this bot is prompting users to re-examine and reconsider what they have said, that's providing opportunities for growth and development that bots which purport to provide "answers" or "advice" don't.
I'm extremely AI-skeptical, but in this case, I'm less dubious about the AI and its uses than I am about the company's ability to withstand the warping factors of venture capital and Silicon Valley techsploitation.
posted by helpthebear at 10:40 AM on April 12 [2 favorites]
As someone who works with the research on reflective and therapeutic uses of writing, that finding, if it's true, seems hugely significant. If this bot is prompting users to re-examine and reconsider what they have said, that's providing opportunities for growth and development that bots which purport to provide "answers" or "advice" don't.
I'm extremely AI-skeptical, but in this case, I'm less dubious about the AI and its uses than I am about the company's ability to withstand the warping factors of venture capital and Silicon Valley techsploitation.
posted by helpthebear at 10:40 AM on April 12 [2 favorites]
She felt that the standard relationship-app model was failing its users. In her view, dating apps offered a false promise, where the highest goal was to find a soulmate, rather than to invest in a set of strong relationships and build a community.
Sounds to me like a problem that could be addressed by designing something functionally identical to pre-sale OK Cupid, when it was full of games and quizzes mostly written by its users who talked to each other on numerous message boards, and oh yeah could also check each other out if someone struck their fancy.
posted by Devoidoid at 9:09 AM on April 17 [2 favorites]
Sounds to me like a problem that could be addressed by designing something functionally identical to pre-sale OK Cupid, when it was full of games and quizzes mostly written by its users who talked to each other on numerous message boards, and oh yeah could also check each other out if someone struck their fancy.
posted by Devoidoid at 9:09 AM on April 17 [2 favorites]
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