The Deliberation
May 30, 2024 5:15 AM   Subscribe

After days of testimony and a marathon closing argument from the prosecution, the jury for the Trump hush-money trial begins its second day of deliberations. They have requested a replay of not only some of the crucial testimony, but at least a portion of the hour-long instructions Justice Merchan provided. The specific crime Trump is charged with turns out to be fairly complex, and Lawfare has an explainer.
posted by mittens (145 comments total) 18 users marked this as a favorite
 
(I know some folks can't stomach twitter, but if you can, Tyler McBrien and Anna Bower of Lawfare have been doing an incredible job providing moment-by-moment details of this case.)
posted by mittens at 5:17 AM on May 30


I have a tradition on my Facebook account; it's something I started when Derek Chauvin's guilty verdict was announced for the murder of George Floyd. I found a copy of that famous panel from a Doonesbury comic, of Mark Slackmeyer talking about the Watergate deliberations and ranting that one of the perpetrators was "Guilty! Guilty, guilty, guilty!"

I have been posting it as my status whenever the former president, or anyone in his wake, has been indicted or otherwise found responsible for something. I am reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally hoping I get to post it again soon.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:34 AM on May 30 [32 favorites]


The specific crime Trump is charged with turns out to be fairly complex

Spaghetti is a fairly complex problem you can solve by sticking a fork in and twisting
posted by chavenet at 5:43 AM on May 30 [45 favorites]


Then throwing it at the wall to see if it will stick.
posted by y2karl at 5:56 AM on May 30 [8 favorites]


There are, what, 34 charges in this case? Does the jury issue 34 separate verdicts?
I'm hoping at least many of the charges stick.
posted by MtDewd at 6:06 AM on May 30


There are, what, 34 charges in this case? Does the jury issue 34 separate verdicts?

I believe so. It's a common tactic prosecutors use. You draw-up a list of however many charges you can realistically apply, hoping that you get a conviction on some of them.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:27 AM on May 30


There's a charge for each of the 34 documents that prosecutors are saying were falsified.
posted by amarynth at 6:33 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]


If we haven't learned by now that the law doesn't apply to Donald Trump, we soon will, as he walks away scot free and continues on his inevitable path to become the first uncontested dictator of the United States.

In the end, we should be thankful to Trump for demonstrating what a complete charade the "rule of law" is.
posted by briank at 6:48 AM on May 30 [12 favorites]


If we haven't learned by now that the law doesn't apply to Donald Trump, we soon will, as he walks away scot free and continues on his inevitable path to become the first uncontested dictator of the United States.

So, do you have some special insight into the jury's deliberations, or are you just treating cynicism erroneously as wisdom?
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:56 AM on May 30 [36 favorites]


It’s a coping mechanism, assuming the worst so you can be pleasantly surprised if it doesn’t happen but are mentally prepared if it does. I’m not saying it’s healthy, but I get it.

It doesn’t play well in public, though. For me, however much it helps me internally, I try not to broadcast it because it makes me look like an asshole.
posted by rikschell at 7:01 AM on May 30 [35 favorites]


Has any US trial been followed so closely, in recent memory?

When I was in the mood for a trial update or an end of day summary, CNN was pretty good. Some of their analysis pieces were flaky, but they still presented a number of perspectives.

For many people, the felony charges being decided are not obvious, and/or they seem ... small potatoes? Yet it was one of the things that Cohen pleaded guilty to in 2018, and served time for, so they aren't nothing.

For this reason, and baked-in partisanship and the assertions from Faux and further-right media outlets that the trial is a biased Trumped-up attempt by Democrats to end Trump’s run, I'm not expecting that the trial's outcome will move the needle much. Any guilty verdict will be appealed, and if Trump is elected, the appeal will be frozen in aspic.

It's certainly been an education in how the trial by jury process works. Especially the mechanics of the jury's job.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:03 AM on May 30


I think there is a lot of. defensive. cynicism. After you've had your hopes dashed a dozen times, there is a reflex not to hope.

I am not sure how this will go. I think this is one of the weaker cases against Trump, but I hope he is found guilty and put away for a long, long time. His followers are dumb enough to mistake narcissistic postiring for strength. Seeing him in a jumpsuit in handcuffs will do more to hurt him politically than any moral or legal argument.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:03 AM on May 30 [4 favorites]


Interesting analysis of NY State law, Kafka would run shrieking. No wonder we need lawyers.

34 counts of business fraud, count-by-count here
posted by MarcWolfe at 7:04 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]


There are, what, 34 charges in this case? Does the jury issue 34 separate verdicts?
I'm hoping at least many of the charges stick.


As I understand it, the 34 charges are just related to individual documents, and the verdict is likely to be all-or-nothing, i.e., not guilty on all counts, guilty on 34 misdemeanor counts of simple business record falsification, or guilty on 34 felony counts of business record falsification in commission of another crime. It seems unlikely that the jury would assert that, e.g., check 000138 was payment for a legitimate legal expense while check 000147 was a hush-money repayment.
posted by nanny's striped stocking at 7:15 AM on May 30 [3 favorites]


I think it’s an open question how much it will hurt him. On the one hand, the orange jumpsuit and manacles show weakness not strength. On the other hand it plays into his narrative as the victim. One of his “arguments” (such as they are) is that the political system is so broken only a criminal can “fix it.” His followers love it when he breaks the rules. What it comes down to is how many of those people there are and who will be more activated to vote.
posted by rikschell at 7:17 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]


and the verdict is likely to be all-or-nothing, i.e., not guilty on all counts, guilty on 34 misdemeanor counts of simple business record falsification, or guilty on 34 felony counts of business record falsification in commission of another crime

This is not quite right. First of all (trial lawyer here) it's impossible to predict what juries will do and I would never do so, especially in a case like this, so this is not me doing that. But some commentators have noted that Trump himself signed some of the checks at issue and not others, so the 34 charges are not identical in terms of the evidence of knowledge and requisite intent.

A jury could decide that Trump had the requisite knowledge only for the checks he personally signed. My understanding (from the TV pundits, so please don't hold me to this) is that could result in the first 11 counts coming back not-guilty, which would cause the expected freak-out as they are read in the courtroom, but that it would not effect the charges related to the checks he signed himself. Such an outcome seems unlikely to me, but it is possible.
posted by The Bellman at 7:23 AM on May 30 [23 favorites]


I found a copy of that famous panel from a Doonesbury comic, of Mark Slackmeyer talking about the Watergate deliberations and ranting that one of the perpetrators was "Guilty! Guilty, guilty, guilty!"

My dad had a little 4-volume collection of Nixon-era Doonesbury. I found it when I was young, and it was one of the sets of documents that helped me to understand what the 70s were like. Whenever my kids ask me whether or not I'm going to vote this time around, I tell them I'm going to do a write-in vote for the Lone Ranger.
posted by nushustu at 7:44 AM on May 30 [6 favorites]


A reminder that this is considered by far the weakest of the four cases, and there's a legitimate argument that he is innocent of the specific legal charges. The sickening thing is that this is likely to be the only one completed before the election. We're uncomfortably close to the "we can't convict on the crimes he actually committed, so we're going to send him up on something else" approach that corrupt cops and prosecutors use, but it seems to be justified here.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:46 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]


"For many people, the felony charges being decided are not obvious, and/or they seem ... small potatoes?"

It helps when one doesn't call it a trial about 'hush money', but rather 'electoral fraud'.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:49 AM on May 30 [15 favorites]


If you can't stand Twitter. there's Mastodon, there's @Nonilex@masto.ai
on Mastodon doing a great job.
posted by Ayn Marx at 7:54 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]


You know how I know Donald Trump is a criminal?

He made money in New York real estate.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:54 AM on May 30 [11 favorites]


The charges pertain to falsifying business records, and election fraud. I wish the media hadn't fallen for TFG's tactic of referring to it as the hush money trial, because NDAs are perfectly legal. It's all part of his game of claiming he's being persecuted over nothing.
posted by orange swan at 7:55 AM on May 30 [6 favorites]


We're uncomfortably close to the "we can't convict on the crimes he actually committed, so we're going to send him up on something else" approach that corrupt cops and prosecutors use, but it seems to be justified here.

No, we really aren't. As pointed out, a large part of why that idea got promulgated is because our idiot media framed the trial as being about "hush money", and not what it actually was about - Trump trying to illegally hide a story that would have negatively impacted his candidacy.

A reminder that this is considered by far the weakest of the four cases, and there's a legitimate argument that he is innocent of the specific legal charges.

A case he was allowed to make in his trial - and given how long the jury has been out and the clarifications they requested, I have the feeling that it's a case his counsel failed to make.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:56 AM on May 30 [10 favorites]


...I try not to broadcast it because it makes me look like an asshole.

Or just another face in the crowd.
posted by y2karl at 8:04 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]


Looking quickly over that explanation, and having no background in law other than an unhealthy obsession with Alicia Florrick, I find myself worried that the case seems to be based on taking a misdemeanor crime and turbo boosting it to the felony level with some razzle dazzle. From the explainer (the explanation?) "If Bragg must prove both A [the misdemeanor] and B [intention to use A to do even worse things] beyond a reasonable doubt, and the jury retains some uncertainty as to whether the object offenses under B actually occurred, that could sink the entire case." And to be marginally honest for a moment, my capacity to think about any of this rationally has been seriously eroded over the past few years of attacks on democracy and polarization.

I'm sure Trump has done much worse, and that, like Al Capone, this is the case that can be made, but I am still nervous. Also, I live in the reddest of states, and regardless of what happens, the epistemological aftermath is going to be exhausting.

And although it is true that rich,white men rarely see the inside of a prison, it is not unheard of.

I guess there's always poetry

posted by craniac at 8:07 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]


A jury could decide that Trump had the requisite knowledge only for the checks he personally signed.

Oh, then we do have a problem, because if I was on the jury I could not be convinced that Trump had the requisite knowledge to find his own ass in the dark with two hands and a Frommer's Guide.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:10 AM on May 30 [7 favorites]


I mean, why does it matter what this Jury says? The Federalist Society loyal soldiers control enough of the US justice system it doesn't matter what this Jury says.

Right now, the institutions of the USA need saving by the people of the USA, they won't save the people of the USA.
posted by NotAYakk at 8:29 AM on May 30 [4 favorites]


if I was on the jury I could not be convinced that Trump had the requisite knowledge to find his own ass in the dark with two hands and a Frommer's Guide

That is, in fact, part of the defense (though Trump's lawyers have had to be a little sneaky about it because they don't want him to wake up and hear them saying it). Essentially, they have suggested several times that, on the Michael Cohen tape in particular, Trump has no idea what's going on and he's just saying "financial things" to sound like he knows what he's talking about.
posted by The Bellman at 8:36 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]


and given how long the jury has been out and the clarifications they requested, I have the feeling that it's a case his counsel failed to make.

Seems like you're getting that backwards. If the defense botched things shouldn't it be a quick and easy conviction?
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:02 AM on May 30


Seems like you're getting that backwards. If the defense botched things shouldn't it be a quick and easy conviction?

No. Juries do, for the most part, take their duties seriously, so I don't expect a conviction to be quick, especially given that this is a "papers case", as was said. And the main part, I think, is that the defense was so eager to paint Cohen as a lying liar who can't be trusted because he lies that they wound up stepping on themselves - calling Costello was a good example of that.

Though to be fair, a lot of this is reading tea leaves at this point.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:15 AM on May 30 [4 favorites]


Watching paint dry: high-stakes edition
posted by phooky at 9:18 AM on May 30 [9 favorites]


I am not sure how this will go. I think this is one of the weaker cases against Trump, but I hope he is found guilty and put away for a long, long time

It's hard to picture him getting any jail time even if found guilty but wouldn't it be only be 4 years if anything?
posted by Liquidwolf at 9:34 AM on May 30


Given that the judge has held him in contempt multiple times, does that mean that regardless of the jury's verdict we can legitimately and factually (if only technically) refer to him as "criminal former-president Trump"? Even if we need to wait and see if the jury will let us use "convicted felon"?

I'm not clear on how contempt works, in a legal sense. (I have a very thorough understanding of the lay concept of contempt, particularly as applied to this individual...)
posted by nickmark at 9:53 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]


Oh boy, I sure hope Lucy won't yank the football away this time, but I have a feeling I won't be kicking any field goals.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:54 AM on May 30 [3 favorites]


Given how much contempt Trump showed the jury and the entire process, I'm kinda looking forward to seeing "Convicted felon Donald Trump" after this week.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:06 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]


I was on a jury once for a criminal case. We took three days. We wanted to be sure we were doing things right. It was a serious crime. I think that is what’s happening here. It’s a big deal, they know it, and they’re asking to look at critical evidence and re-hear the instructions. I don’t see any way to predict what this means for the eventual decision.
posted by kerf at 10:11 AM on May 30 [15 favorites]


If we haven't learned by now that the law doesn't apply to Donald Trump, we soon will, as he walks away scot free

To be clear, at the moment this is entirely in the hands of the jurors. There's absolutely nothing inevitable about their verdict, whichever way they go.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:16 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]


One pleasant side effect of a long deliberation is that Trump has to sit in the courthouse and wait around while they discuss. He has to be on hand to have the verdict read, so he can't leave.
posted by msbutah at 10:35 AM on May 30 [10 favorites]


I'm not clear on how contempt works, in a legal sense. (I have a very thorough understanding of the lay concept of contempt, particularly as applied to this individual...)

There are two "kinds" of contempt of court, civil contempt and criminal contempt, and i don't know whether New York State has the latter. (Some jurisdictions do and some do not.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:37 AM on May 30 [1 favorite]


Politico: What it is like covering the trial in court..

No coffee allowed!
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:40 AM on May 30


Why oh why was the jury not given the instructions in writing? The Serious Trouble podcast suggested they probably would be.
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 10:44 AM on May 30


ASCII Costanza head: apparently it's against the law in NYS to give jury instructions in writing.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:45 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]


Thanks adrienneleigh. Ken White maybe ought to tread more carefully around state law (he's a former AUSA). He ran into trouble like this in the New Mexico armorer/actor/DP case.
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 10:47 AM on May 30


On closer read: apparently it's not exactly against the law, but it's something that can be a reversible error (ie, grounds for overturning the conviction on appeal) even if the defense and prosecution agreed that it's okay, so the judge is quite sensibly treading very carefully.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:51 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]


I just finished the new Rachel Maddow, which is all about the Nazi propaganda (and in some cases action) apparatus in the US in the 1930s and 1940s. There's a section on the trials of a bunch of the conspirators and reading it has left me disheartened about the prospects in this trial. (The book is called Prequel and it's clearly paralleling our current struggles with authoritarianism in the US.)
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:23 AM on May 30


He fucked a porn star. And then paid her off to shut up about it, what more is there to say? The fact that the political stage has come to this, where his party won’t put him in the toilet, speaks volumes. I am frightened.
posted by valkane at 11:38 AM on May 30 [3 favorites]


The longer the jury is out, the more likely he is found innocent, is the rule of thumb for juries. No idea if it applies here. They're probably spending hours reading the jury instructions.

I just don't care? He won't see any consequences, certainly never a jail cell, so why does any of this matter? It's incredibly dispiriting.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:39 AM on May 30 [2 favorites]


Ah no written instructions. Odd.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:41 AM on May 30


Not holding my breath. So if he happens to be found guilty on one or more charges, how many times can he appeal afterwards and keep this charade going?
posted by BlueHorse at 12:00 PM on May 30


He fucked a porn star.

I understand that this is a very common phrasing of the thing he did, but i wish people wouldn't use it. There's nothing shameful about being a porn star, and there's nothing shameful about fucking one, with their consent. Daniels' testimony is in fact a story of sexual coercion, which is shameful, and it is no less shameful because the victim of coercion was also a sex worker.

Donald Trump didn't "fuck a porn star". He raped a(nother) woman. And then paid people off, with campaign funds, to keep it quiet.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:14 PM on May 30 [55 favorites]


Does the jury issue 34 separate verdicts?

The WaPo says yes.
Do jurors have to reach the same verdict on all 34 counts?

They do not. It is possible that jurors could find Donald Trump guilty on some counts, but not guilty on others. They could also reach a verdict on some counts and deadlock on others.

Trump faces 34 counts of falsifying business records in the first degree. The indictment essentially breaks down the counts into three types of records, relating to allegedly false invoices, checks and ledger records kept by the Trump Organization.
posted by MtDewd at 12:21 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]


Right. We shouldn't even be calling this the "hush money" trial, because paying hush money isn't illegal.

This case is about falsifying business records to cover the hush money payment for the purpose of improperly influencing an election. That's the headline.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 12:21 PM on May 30 [11 favorites]


And the reason he's on trial for campaign fraud, when he's never been on trial for rape, is because to a first approximation, every other rich and/or powerful man in America is also a rapist.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:24 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]




On closer read: apparently it's not exactly against the law, but it's something that can be a reversible error (ie, grounds for overturning the conviction on appeal) even if the defense and prosecution agreed that it's okay, so the judge is quite sensibly treading very carefully.

Especially with two lawyers in the jury, it could get pretty easy to begin playing with the exact wording of written jury instructions to find a novel verdict which of course would be able to be appealed.

I really recommend the podcast Prosecuting Donald Trump which is Mary McCord and Andrew Weissman talking about the various trials of DJT. They provide great analysis and have a lot of insight from their own years working in the courts. If you haven't found it yet, then maybe you've found it now.
posted by hippybear at 1:03 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]


Alas, it looks like the jurors are going home for the day, without having decided. So much for my need for closure!
posted by mittens at 1:16 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]


Oh shit, they have a verdict after all.
posted by mittens at 1:38 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]


oh please, oh please, oh please, oh please 🤞🤞
posted by SansPoint at 1:42 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]


Is there any scenario where hush money should be legal, some morally defensible version of the thing? Obviously it is legal, as it is useful to rich people, but should it be?
posted by clawsoon at 1:45 PM on May 30


Oh shit, they have a verdict after all.

But then they asked for 30 extra minutes to fill out jury forms? So maybe enough time to get oneself a coffee or smoke oneself a joint?
posted by clawsoon at 1:47 PM on May 30


Trying to do the math in my head: Which takes thirty minutes, writing out "guilty" 34 times or "not guilty" 34 times?
posted by mittens at 1:48 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]


What absolute teases. A+ for suspense.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 1:48 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]


It might be "not guilty" for the first 10 or 11 charges as those are the checks he didn't sign. So it could feel a bit soul killing at the beginning of the process.

Of course, this isn't televised, so... less drama that way.
posted by hippybear at 1:50 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]


Guilty.
Appeal.
Crickets.
posted by whatevernot at 1:50 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]


Is there any scenario where hush money should be legal, some morally defensible version of the thing? Obviously it is legal, as it is useful to rich people, but should it be?

One argument is that it allows victims to get money without having to themselves go public and sue. If you never wanted to make your allegations public, and want cash now and not at some indeterminate future time (minus lawyers fees), a confidential settlement might look pretty attractive.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:54 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]


Not a hung jury, so there's that.
posted by mazola at 1:59 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]


Maybe today, after eight, nine years, I can unclench.
posted by Capt. Renault at 1:59 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]




A verdict by definition means unanimity, so there are two possibilities:

* I get to feel smug in my cynicism because of course nothing was ever going to happen to the man immune to all consequences who is above the law
* I get to be briefly, slightly happy
posted by Tomorrowful at 2:00 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]


Livestream here.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:01 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]


Yeah, not a hung jury and it's hard to imagine an acquittal so soon. They have to have reached consensus on a partial conviction, in my estimation.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 2:01 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]


Jury seated. It's happening...
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 2:05 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]


Guilty...
posted by ltl at 2:06 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]


Guilty
posted by nobody at 2:06 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]


Today is my oldest child's birthday.
posted by nickmark at 2:06 PM on May 30 [11 favorites]




GUILTY
posted by mittens at 2:06 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]


Best birthday ever.
posted by nickmark at 2:06 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]


Oh wow
posted by kensington314 at 2:06 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]


guilty!
posted by heyitsgogi at 2:07 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]


Was "Guilty As Fuck" an option?
posted by mazola at 2:07 PM on May 30 [8 favorites]


okay well, they've gone for all 34 counts.

the hair on my entire body is standing on end.
posted by hippybear at 2:07 PM on May 30 [6 favorites]


GUILTY. ON ALL COUNTS.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:07 PM on May 30 [6 favorites]


Guilty on all counts!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 2:07 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]


Guilty!
posted by Karmeliet at 2:07 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]


SCHADENFREUDE PIE
posted by nickmark at 2:07 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]


just dropped by for a quick nelson laugh, eat shit you horrible old fucker
posted by cortex at 2:08 PM on May 30 [25 favorites]


Oh man, posting my Mark Slackmeyer photo felt SO GOD-DAMN GOOD it was almost SEXUAL.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:08 PM on May 30 [16 favorites]


Holy. Shit.
posted by gwint at 2:08 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]


Hot diggity damn. There's some good news for a change.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:09 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]


https://talkingpointsmemo.com/live-blog/jury-deliberations-resume-in-first-criminal-trial-of-former-president

Trump Looks Stony Faced
He is not moving. His attorneys look grim.
posted by kensington314 at 2:10 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]


Baruch atah, Adonai Eloheinu, Melech haolam, shehecheyanu, v'kiy'manu, v'higiyanu laz'man hazeh.


Blessed are You, Lord our God, who has kept us alive, sustained us, and enabled us to reach this happy day
posted by Tomorrowful at 2:10 PM on May 30 [12 favorites]


What about Mother Teresa? Any word from the jury on her?
posted by mazola at 2:10 PM on May 30 [11 favorites]


So does this mean he can stand for president, but not vote for president?
posted by dng at 2:11 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]


I knew what the verdict should be, but I hardly dared hope it would be even a partial victory. And lo and behold the outcome is the best outcome!!!!
posted by orange swan at 2:11 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]


In a sane world the RNC would select someone else to be the nominee.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 2:11 PM on May 30 [9 favorites]


What about Mother Teresa? Any word from the jury on her?

I understand she was really difficult to work with. But that's not first-hand knowledge.
posted by hippybear at 2:11 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]


Sentencing is going to be fascinating.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 2:12 PM on May 30 [8 favorites]


Dear Diary, today I am briefly proud to be an American.
posted by Jacqueline at 2:12 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]


Count 1: GUILTY
Count 2: GUILTY
Count 3: GUILTY
Count 4: GUILTY
Count 5: GUILTY
Count 6: GUILTY
Count 7: GUILTY
Count 8: GUILTY
Count 9: GUILTY
Count 10: GUILTY
Count 11: GUILTY
Count 12: GUILTY
Count 13: GUILTY
Count 14: GUILTY
Count 15: GUILTY
Count 16: GUILTY
Count 17: GUILTY
Count 18: GUILTY
Count 19: GUILTY
Count 20: GUILTY
Count 21: GUILTY
Count 22: GUILTY
Count 23: GUILTY
Count 24: Tom Jones - "It's Not Unusual"
Count 25: GUILTY
Count 26: GUILTY
Count 27: GUILTY
Count 28: GUILTY
Count 29: GUILTY
Count 30: GUILTY
Count 31: GUILTY
Count 32: GUILTY
Count 33: GUILTY
Count 34: GUILTY
posted by Rhaomi at 2:14 PM on May 30 [40 favorites]


Wow all 34?? I would have thought they'd at least nitpick one or two.
posted by Melismata at 2:15 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]


felons can't vote in florida lol
posted by logicpunk at 2:15 PM on May 30 [10 favorites]


FUCK THAT ASSHOLE.
posted by The_Auditor at 2:15 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]


What flag will be flying at the Alito household tonight?
posted by mazola at 2:15 PM on May 30 [17 favorites]


rip bozo
posted by BungaDunga at 2:16 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]


Quick, get out the shackles before he has his white Bronco moment!
posted by mittens at 2:16 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]


Wow this makes my day.
posted by caution live frogs at 2:16 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]


Um, wow here too.
posted by Artful Codger at 2:17 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]


(Juries are cool.)
posted by The Bellman at 2:17 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]


What's kind of fun is that the 4 year max prison sentence is the same length as a presidential term.

(Not sure why sentencing has to wait until July 11th.)
posted by nobody at 2:18 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]


Mark July 11 on your calendar!
posted by mazola at 2:19 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]


Whoop whoop
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 2:19 PM on May 30


Surely this?
:)
posted by TwoToneRow at 2:19 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]


So... neither TFG nor his criminal trual are jury are hung.
posted by orange swan at 2:22 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]


Sentencing will be set just six days before the GOP national convention. Everyone has such amazing timing in this trial, right now!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 2:22 PM on May 30


(Not sure why sentencing has to wait until July 11th.)

Four days before the Republican National Convention where he becomes "nominated".

Lookin real good Republicans .. real good.
posted by Liquidwolf at 2:22 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]




(Not sure why sentencing has to wait until July 11th.)

Both sets of lawyers get to prepare their sentencing recommendations. Trump has to sit for an interview with the probation office, they produce a report with their recommendations for the judge.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:23 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]


The Trump supporters outside the courtroom are in full meltdown mode and it is glorious.
posted by orange swan at 2:24 PM on May 30 [9 favorites]


Not sure why sentencing has to wait until July 11th.

So lawyers can file the normal motions for new trial, most likely. There's also no way I believe July 11th will be sentencing. They'll want to delay that as long as possible.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:26 PM on May 30


(Not sure why sentencing has to wait until July 11th.)

From the media I've been following it is because he has to be brought into the probation department to be interviewed by an officer there over the course of the afternoon. That individual will then be tasked with writing up a 5-6 page summary on who he is to assist the judge in sentencing. No doubt there will also be input from the lawyers somewhere in that process. It apparently typically takes 4-6 weeks for this to occur, so the sentencing date is pretty normal.

Also - it is highly likely that the sentence will involve probation, but not jail time. What will be particularly interesting is what the terms of probation will be. For example, I wonder if the judge will put a term on the probation that Trump cannot deny the legitimacy of the trial, the jury, or his status as a felon.

Some mandated community service might also be nice, although Trump would definitely try to spin that for his own ends, and I'd hate to saddle a charitable organization with dealing with him.
posted by meinvt at 2:27 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]


Side note: we voted in I think 2016 to grant felons the franchise in Florida but the GOP (led by Scott, Rubio, etc) decided to poll tax it into oblivion, it all got bogged down, and as far as I know there is currently no way for a felon to cast a legal ballot in Florida.

Petard, convicted felon, hoist upon.
posted by cmyk at 2:35 PM on May 30 [9 favorites]


Depending on how the election goes, he could be sentenced to [white] house arrest.

-rimshot-
posted by Artful Codger at 2:35 PM on May 30


What the hell does any of this matter? He will be running for president on probation. Ok? What's changed?
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:37 PM on May 30


I'm as much a "nothing matters" kind of guy as the next person but I have to think that its better to not be a convicted felon than to be a convicted felon.
posted by Justinian at 2:39 PM on May 30 [21 favorites]


What the hell does any of this matter? He will be running for president on probation. Ok? What's changed?

There are likely a number of people who were thinking "well, okay, maybe he's icky but at least he's not a criminal" and now they can't think that and that may have lost him several voters.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:39 PM on May 30 [7 favorites]


What the hell does any of this matter? He will be running for president on probation. Ok? What's changed?

Just look at it this way: What's bad for him is generally good for the country. Plus it might change the minds of a few weird people.
posted by Liquidwolf at 2:40 PM on May 30 [6 favorites]


I'd hate to saddle a charitable organization with dealing with him.

From my recollection, he's legally barred in NYS from working with them.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:42 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]


There will be ketchup all over the walls tonight!
posted by susiswimmer at 2:45 PM on May 30 [7 favorites]


I texted my roommate "GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS" and he texted me back a screenshot from Twitter of someone reporting that people on the Upper West Side are leaning out of their apartments and cars and shouting "GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS" at each other in celebration.

A part of me wants to go out on the streets tonight to party - but another part of me is a little scared that Some Shit May Go Down.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:47 PM on May 30 [12 favorites]


Oh, I also called my parents (liberal, the both of them) and my father had already been watching and sounded SO DAMN HAPPY.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:48 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]


There are likely a number of people who were thinking "well, okay, maybe he's icky but at least he's not a criminal"

In most political analyses I've seen this would basically be a bunch of white suburbanites who would generally tend to vote R because "low taxes" and "children's safety" but he already lost a bunch of them in 2020 (which is basically why he lost) and this would be the nail in the coffin for them coming back plus maybe convincing some leftover holdouts.
posted by soundguy99 at 2:49 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]


Here's how it matters: Trump always lies and denies. Most folks know this (and if they're Republicans they usually don't give a shit), yet there's also a significant number of his followers who actually think that when Trump says the sky is green, it's green.

Here's something where Trump has declared "No I didn't!" and the whole thing was dissected in public, and a jury of his peers has looked closely at it and just said "Oh yes, you did".

That's kind of significant.
posted by Artful Codger at 2:51 PM on May 30 [9 favorites]


If he shows up for his debates with Biden he's going to lose his fucking shit on live TV.
posted by essexjan at 2:52 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]


↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓


TRUMP VERDICT THREAD


↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
posted by lalochezia at 2:53 PM on May 30 [7 favorites]


Is this the shortest Trump thread ever??
posted by MtDewd at 3:11 PM on May 30 [6 favorites]


It got continued over there.
posted by hippybear at 3:14 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]


he texted me back a screenshot from Twitter of someone reporting that people on the Upper West Side are leaning out of their apartments and cars and shouting "GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS" at each other in celebration.

I'M AS HAPPY AS HELL AND I WANT A LOT MORE OF THIS
posted by rhizome at 4:11 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]


Boy, that spaghetti stuck to the wall...
posted by y2karl at 4:36 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]


Well, I hope to continue to be wrong about this as I was this morning.
posted by briank at 4:38 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]


World News Tonight with David Muir reported to the people still living in the 20th century here in the Atlanta 'burbs that this might be good for Trump in the sense he's receiving so many donations his website is down.

I did receive a text from my uncle on the UWS reading “GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS," and saying how proud he was of his fellow New Yorkers.

Reposting in the new thread.
posted by ob1quixote at 4:45 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]


What the hell does any of this matter? He will be running for president on probation. Ok? What's changed?


If nothing else it means alot more days where TFG has to be in court rather than doing anything else.

It means further draining of money that would have been going to other republican PACs going to TFG legal defence.

If nothing else it is making a lot of good people happy. And a lot deplorables unhappy.
posted by Mitheral at 6:16 PM on May 30 [5 favorites]


What flag will be flying at the Alito household tonight?

Skull & crossbones, what else?
posted by y2karl at 6:50 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]


Count 24: Tom Jones - "It's Not Unusual"

What's new, pussygrabber? Whoa-a whoa-a whoa-a whoa!
posted by flabdablet at 11:21 PM on May 30 [4 favorites]


I found a copy of that famous panel from a Doonesbury comic, of Mark Slackmeyer talking about the Watergate deliberations and ranting that one of the perpetrators was "Guilty! Guilty, guilty, guilty!"

Me too! And I made sure I had copies on all the computers I use to be ready to post it when the time came.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:04 AM on May 31 [1 favorite]


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