A Dutch court refuses to arrest Bush.
May 5, 2005 8:49 AM   Subscribe

A Dutch court refuses to arrest George W. Bush when he arrives there on Saturday. the demands "could have far-reaching consequences for US-Dutch relations"
posted by Count Ziggurat (75 comments total)
 
Arresting Bush would be really not-good for the Dutch if that happened. Is this news? Some intelligent person please tell me.
posted by shoos at 8:53 AM on May 5, 2005


Consequences? You mean like the instant invasion and annihilation of the country for being dumb enough to think they could mess with the most powerful person in the world?

Other than wishful thinking, what the hell is the point of this thread?
posted by dios at 8:56 AM on May 5, 2005


A court in The Hague turned down a demand by a dozen plaintiffs who wanted to force the Dutch government to arrest US President George W. Bush when he visits the Netherlands Saturday, the judgement made public said.

Bush will be in the south of the Netherlands this weekend to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the end of World War II in Europe.

The plaintiffs, mostly left-wing organisations and activists, accused Bush of "numerous grave violations of the Geneva Conventions". They also said the president is responsible for the deaths of civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq and Washington's refusal to recognize the International Criminal Court (ICC), the world's first permanent war crimes court.

In the judgement, dated on Tuesday, the court said that the case was political and that the demands "could have far-reaching consequences for US-Dutch relations".


That's the entire content of the single link.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 8:56 AM on May 5, 2005


they should arrest him when he gets back for testing + for thc.............. :o)
posted by nervousfritz at 9:00 AM on May 5, 2005


Well, the charges are valid. Bush is indeed directly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands. While I wish no ills on the Dutch, at least if they arrested him, the rest of the world would see what assholes we americans have become when we annihilate their country for actually trying to make the man accountable for his heinous actions.
posted by krash2fast at 9:02 AM on May 5, 2005


We should turn their little foreign country into a parking lot
and *** them up the *** with plastic Ann Coulter dolls.
posted by Slagman at 9:03 AM on May 5, 2005


instant invasion and annihilation of the country for being dumb enough to think they could mess with the most powerful person in the world?

*hands dios a paper towel to wipe that nasty fluid off of his keyboard*
posted by matteo at 9:11 AM on May 5, 2005


one could argue that this is an echo of appeasement.
posted by MrLint at 9:14 AM on May 5, 2005


dios writes " Consequences? You mean like the instant invasion and annihilation of the country for being dumb enough to think they could mess with the most powerful person in the world?"

Oddly enough I too can practically hear dios jacking off as he wrote that...
posted by clevershark at 9:19 AM on May 5, 2005


Consequences? You mean like the instant invasion and annihilation of the country for being dumb enough to think they could mess with the most powerful person in the world?

Remember when conservatives were allegedly worried about the corrosive effect Clinton's blow jobs would have on the sexual morals of the population at large? Well, liberals, I hereby present to you an example of the corrosive trickle-down effect of the Bush Doctrine. America: Disagree With Us And Die.
posted by The Dryyyyy Cracker at 9:22 AM on May 5, 2005


another could argue that the Dutch didn't want to look hypocritical
posted by shoos at 9:23 AM on May 5, 2005


Consequences? You mean like the instant invasion and annihilation of the country for being dumb enough to think they could mess with the most powerful person in the world?

We would need to get permission from several other European countries before we could invade, whether we wanted to come from the land, the sea, or the air. It's extremely unlikely we'd get that approval: while I doubt they would directly support the Dutch, I think they would want to deal with the issue as a European problem to be solved diplomatically and locally, not by an invasion by foreign troops. And if we then declared war on Europe because we didn't get our way the whole world would turn against us. We are not powerful enough to take on the combined might of every other country in the world: and our geographic advantage would be lost as Mexico and Canada acted as staging grounds for a land war against the US. That's not even considering the very likely possibility that there would be a coup against an administration that got us into a war with the whole world, followed by immediate concessions. So either a war would never happen or we would lose. Therefore, I conclude that a military solution wouldn't work in this case dios.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 9:23 AM on May 5, 2005


Maybe the Dutch are bluffing as a plan to catch the criminal.
posted by futureproof at 9:27 AM on May 5, 2005


I'd like to see them try it.

Really. I would.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:36 AM on May 5, 2005


Dios = wackjob. Put your brain in gear before engaging your mouth. Less crashes into reason that way . . .
posted by mk1gti at 9:43 AM on May 5, 2005


This is a way for people outside the US to let the world know that Bush just isn't wanted in their country, and that their governments do not have the people's backing in hosting his visit.

Of course the enterprise isn't meant to succeed, just make a point.
posted by clevershark at 9:44 AM on May 5, 2005


As Commander-in-Chief, he seems to have his ass covered by legislation. He'll sit there for a few days pulling a Milosevic (i.e. loudly proclaiming "I do not recognise this court" over and over again - he's been practising that) before a few friends in Black Hawks land on the shores of Scheveningen to come and rescue him. Spielberg will make a film based on these events, although because it's an outrageous plot that hasn't happened in real life yet, he may have to buy the story rights from Bruckheimer. I'd pay and watch it, probably at the multiplex theatre right near the beach, and the circle of irony will be complete.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:45 AM on May 5, 2005


Also.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:45 AM on May 5, 2005


On postview: clevershark nailed it.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:46 AM on May 5, 2005


I just wanna see the frog-marching.
God dammit, I was promised some frog-marching!
posted by bashos_frog at 9:46 AM on May 5, 2005


"...mess with the most powerful person in the world?"

They want to arrest Pope Benedict?
posted by terrapin at 9:47 AM on May 5, 2005


It really doesn't matter what the court decided, since they couldn't arrest Bush anyway, and arresting him would probably be an act of war.

But if they tried, you'd start seeing "Beatrix, Koningin van Camp X-Ray" on the back of coins.
posted by oaf at 9:47 AM on May 5, 2005


They couldn't arrest Pinochet or Kissinger, 30 years after they [began] commiting their crimes, so there's no sense in even thinking about arresting a foreign, seated head of state.

Folks, the ruling classes are only arrested, tried and sentenced when a revolution happens. Think about it.
posted by jsavimbi at 9:48 AM on May 5, 2005


Maybe they should charge him and try him without him being there? Then, once they convict him, then they can ask the US to hand him over?

I'm sure that would go over swimmingly. At least they acknowledge him for what he is, a criminal.

bashos_frog, dude, isn't France where they frog march?

clevershark, it will be interesting to see how the Dutch handle protesters of his visit. I would expect they will not be illegally rounded up and detained in a fish warehouse for three days until the coast is clear.
posted by fenriq at 9:51 AM on May 5, 2005


Are the netherlands part of the European Union? Hardly forsee the US "instantly" going to war with the EU over anything.
posted by delmoi at 9:56 AM on May 5, 2005


Consequences? You mean like the instant invasion and annihilation of the country for being dumb enough to think they could mess with the most powerful person in the world?

Other than wishful thinking, what the hell is the point of this thread?

This continued desire to interrupt and disrupt by dissenters is an effort to silence the speaker.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:59 AM on May 5, 2005


fenriq writes "I would expect they will not be illegally rounded up and detained in a fish warehouse for three days until the coast is clear."

Trying to keep the Dutch from assembling in protest is pretty futile IMHO...

Anyway, it's not like Bush has any contact with the outside world during any of these junkets. Wherever he goes he has an entourage of over 1000, vehicles, etc. And those are the people he brings with him.

He knows better than to step out in public anyway... or, more accurately, his political advisors know better than to let him.
posted by clevershark at 10:02 AM on May 5, 2005


it's intresting they didn't say that he didn't deserve it, but said they wouldn't because of us-dutch political relations.
posted by klik99 at 10:03 AM on May 5, 2005


XQwhatever, your petty attempt to be clever might be interesting if there was any correlation between my comments in that thread and the response to this one. Of course, there isn't any relation, but don't let that stop you from being a prick.
posted by dios at 10:05 AM on May 5, 2005


Of course, there isn't any relation, but don't let that stop you from being a prick.

Now, now, there's no need to be insulting, you churlish boor.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 10:08 AM on May 5, 2005


From goodnewsfortheinsane's link:

A new law supposedly protecting U.S. servicemembers from the International Criminal Court ...

Wow. How long before we completely alienate ourselves from the rest of the world?
posted by C17H19NO3 at 10:14 AM on May 5, 2005


Even if they wanted to, the Netherlands has no authority to arrest G.W. If I remember correctly, he has to be declared a war criminal by the United Nations first. But then again, who takes the U.N. seriously anyway?
posted by C17H19NO3 at 10:18 AM on May 5, 2005


*imagines perp walk with Bush in manacles, smiles*

It's time to impeach anyway--that memo the British released is evidence enough.
posted by amberglow at 10:23 AM on May 5, 2005


If only...
posted by iamck at 10:29 AM on May 5, 2005


That was pretty funny, XQ.

I, also, would like to see them try to arrest him. It'd make for good TV.
posted by graventy at 10:33 AM on May 5, 2005


I found the Yahoo news piece a little oddly worded: did they mean that granting the demands would be bad for US-Dutch relations, or that making the demands (which is already done) would be bad. this article has slightly more information and is more clearly worded.

I also found this article, which indicates that the Dutch activists were responding to a recent finding that a Japanese War Tribunal on Afganistan has found George Bush guilty of war crimes. (More here)
posted by carmen at 10:40 AM on May 5, 2005


Folks, the ruling classes are only arrested, tried and sentenced when a revolution happens. Think about it.

Excellent point.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:46 AM on May 5, 2005


listen, I dislike bush as much as the next person who follows the news and has a reasonable and fair perspective of the world, but the dios pile-on is a little unnecessary. well, maybe a lottle unnecessary.
posted by mcsweetie at 10:52 AM on May 5, 2005


"Japanese War Tribunal?" You mean "hippy art school piss fest?"
posted by shoos at 10:52 AM on May 5, 2005


I demand the government arrest anyone who's political views clash with my own. If you need more reason, I'm sure I could find a kangaroo court somewhere to find them guilty of something as well.
posted by acetonic at 10:54 AM on May 5, 2005


Bush is not the most powerful person in the world as America is no longer viewed as that magical land out west that everyone wants to see, I am american and now that I live in another country, things look different from this side..and it was really hard explaining how little George won again...
posted by treviso at 11:31 AM on May 5, 2005


Maybe the Dutch are bluffing as a plan to catch the criminal.

And if this doesn't work, they'll send him a mailer notifying him that he just won a free boat...

After all, in addition to their tulip mania and cheap dates, the Dutch are known for their cleverness.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:33 AM on May 5, 2005


Bush is not the most powerful person in the world as America is no longer viewed as that magical land out west that everyone wants to see

That's nice. However, a country's power isn't determined by a popularity contest. Bush controls large numbers of nukes and a huge standing army, navy, and air force. In addition, he has quite a bit of economic power. This power doesn't magically disappear because he's not popular. He's not the most popular person in the world, he's the most powerful. The two have nothing to do with each other.
posted by unreason at 12:01 PM on May 5, 2005


You mean "hippy art school piss fest?"

Ah, Hippy Art School Piss Fest. That movie sucked.
Too much pissing, not enough art school.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 12:46 PM on May 5, 2005


I demand the government arrest anyone who's political views clash with my own.

Really? I just demand people who mislead nations, knowningly causing the deaths of thousands for political gain be held accountable. But that's just me.
posted by iamck at 12:58 PM on May 5, 2005


Really? You mean like all that debt we have that's mostly backed by China, Japan, Russia....etc.?

No, I mean the immense foreign aid that Bush uses to gain political power. Whether the economic situation can continue is irrelevant. What I'm saying is that Bush has the power right now. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, I'm saying it's a true thing. And the fact that you don't like Bush doesn't make him not powerful anymore.
posted by unreason at 12:59 PM on May 5, 2005


lunatic fringe attempting to score cheap points with political theatre: 1
anyone taking them seriously: 0
posted by zanni at 1:30 PM on May 5, 2005


They should just refuse W entry into the country. That would get the point across and it wouldn't necessitate invasion.
posted by deborah at 2:16 PM on May 5, 2005


I think they should refuse entry into the country, then refuse Air Force One the right to refuel at any other airports, then when it turns around and trys to land in the U.S. refuse permission to land there. . . Problem solved.
posted by mk1gti at 2:30 PM on May 5, 2005


mcsweetie wins the thread by inventing the word "lottle".
posted by nicwolff at 3:03 PM on May 5, 2005


but the dios pile-on is a little unnecessary

I think the term you're really looking for is "overdue".
posted by AlexReynolds at 3:08 PM on May 5, 2005


When someone advocates murdering thousands of innocent people to protect one war criminal, let the piling on commence
posted by mk1gti at 3:40 PM on May 5, 2005


Coincidentally, the Bilderberg conference, which is going on now, will wrap up this weekend in Munich Germany. Henry Kissinger is chairing the opening discussion.
posted by euphorb at 3:49 PM on May 5, 2005


Eh. I thought the Geneva Convention thing was no longer valid. It's been little more than "lip service" for years.
posted by ZachsMind at 3:55 PM on May 5, 2005


Yeah, it seems civilized behavior has been thrown onto the dumpster as well. Goodbye Geneva Convention, goodbye civilized behavior, we'll take walking around in animal skins and grunting like animals at each other any day.
posted by mk1gti at 4:21 PM on May 5, 2005


ZachsMind writes " Eh. I thought the Geneva Convention thing was no longer valid. It's been little more than 'lip service' for years."

In the words of your Attorney General, it's "quaint".
posted by clevershark at 4:35 PM on May 5, 2005


I love that someone would present such a case in the first place. It shows opposition to Bush's tactics by, of all things, seeking a legal recourse to a disagreement...
posted by Busithoth at 4:37 PM on May 5, 2005


I doubt we'll be running around in animal skins and grunting like animals. It'll be more like running around in radiation suits and gas masks trying to keep bodyparts from falling off.
posted by ZachsMind at 4:43 PM on May 5, 2005


Zachsmind
That's what I'm afraid of. Lately I've been having thoughts of what life will be like around my city if Seattle gets hit by a North Korean nuclear attack . . . As I think of it, I remember I had a dream last night about just that . . . Creepy . . .
posted by mk1gti at 5:04 PM on May 5, 2005


Actually, the most powerful person in the world at the moment is the guy who gets to slap bushy around when he doesn't do whatever he's been told to.
posted by Aquaman at 5:17 PM on May 5, 2005


mk1 - so did i. extra creepy.
posted by iamck at 5:19 PM on May 5, 2005


yeah, mine involved walking around in the ruins of buildings, rubble all around, walls collapsed, rebar all around . . . I remember me and someone else were peeling off anti-radiation suits while looking around at the devestation.
posted by mk1gti at 5:29 PM on May 5, 2005


goodbye civilized behavior

You mean "ideal" behavior. I'm not sure humans have ever had a consensus on what "civilized" behavior means let alone what it's it like when practiced. Civilization itself seems to be the problem these days.

I do admit though, it would be beautiful to see a sitting US president or leading statesman arrested abroad. We need to be taken down a notch. I only wish somebody had the balls to do it. It would be so awesome.

C'mon you pussies over in Europe! I DARE you!
posted by tkchrist at 6:09 PM on May 5, 2005


I guess what I'm refering to with civilized behavior is just common courtesy, it seems like that is lacking in so many ways these days. Instead what you hear is "I don't wanna be *politically correct*. Politically correct my ass, these are simple courteous manners that were practiced for several hundred years . . . .
posted by mk1gti at 6:25 PM on May 5, 2005


Folks, the ruling classes are only arrested, tried and sentenced when a revolution happens. Think about it.

Excellent point.


No it's not. Maybe if it had been rephrased to say "the ruling classes are only executed without trial or sentencing when a revolution happens," you could have said "historically accurate point." But it didn't, so it isn't. Neither is it excellent.

Regarding the arrest of GWB: clevershark did have it. Everyone there knew that the arrest of an administrative war criminal happens under one or both of two conditions:

1. War, the victor arrests who they want to.
2. International tribunal with or without the compliance of the accused party.

But since GWB made it clear that he neither cares nor intends on listening to what the UN has to say, that eliminates the possiblity of having 2 happen without 1.

Also, regarding the US's economic strength, anyone who thinks that the US doesn't have economic power in the world is out of their mind. Yes, we have a tremendous amount of debt to other countries, but we have it because those countries depend on our citizens buying their stuff, especially Japan and the Middle Eastern nations. They loan us money, which goes to the friends of GWB and Cheney (which they have no intention of ever paying back) and in return they get unfair portions of their market of choice. Pharmaceuticals, oil, electronics, automobiles, etc... Trade regulations, and the fact that we never change them for the good of the American People, are why they loan us that money, and are also why we get away with almost never paying it off.

Part of what Clinton was working toward (and what the Neocons have utterly destroyed) was a certain degree (though by no means total) of economic freedom from that situation.

Now, GWB could simply push for harsher trade regulations that even the playing field in those markets, and that would hurt those countries. But that would likely mean war. This administration has demonstrated that they don't mind going to war for stupid reasons. That carries a certain amount of power.
posted by shmegegge at 6:28 PM on May 5, 2005


the ruling classes are only executed without trial or sentencing when a revolution happens

Hey, just because the names of the judges changes doesn't make the judgement is any less legal.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 8:15 PM on May 5, 2005


mcsweetie wins the thread by inventing the word "lottle".

actually, my girlfriend invented it. but I will most definitely take the credit for it!
posted by mcsweetie at 8:45 PM on May 5, 2005


As Commander-in-Chief, he seems to have his ass covered by legislation.

Ok, to throw a bit of reality in here, ICC or no, war crimes, if they fit the definition, are crimes of extraterritorial jurisdiction.

The Dutch since Grotius take their international law very seriously. The first international criminals were pirates. The deal was, a pirate lands in your port, you don't just have the right to prosecute (whatever country you are) you have the DUTY to prosecute. This has not changed since that day, while the scope of those falling under extra-territorial jurisdiction has increased.

This has nothing to do with the International Criminal Court.
posted by dreamsign at 9:17 PM on May 5, 2005


We are not powerful enough to take on the combined might of every other country in the world: and our geographic advantage would be lost as Mexico and Canada acted as staging grounds for a land war against the US. That's not even considering the very likely possibility that there would be a coup against an administration that got us into a war with the whole world, followed by immediate concessions.

Never mind dios, now I gotta clean off my keyboard.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:46 PM on May 5, 2005


Is anybody else a little weirded out that this is exactly what was "foretold" in the Jack & Bobby flashfowards?
posted by unrequited at 1:27 AM on May 6, 2005


Screw Jack & Bobby. I'm beginning to consider reconsidering my opinion that John Titor was a gag.
posted by ZachsMind at 2:00 AM on May 6, 2005


I'm beginning to consider reconsidering my opinion that John Titor was a gag.

I suppose that in the post-apocalyptic future, we will all use Microsoft Frontpage 2034...
posted by AlexReynolds at 2:51 AM on May 6, 2005


You know, sometimes I wake up from nightmares about John Titor?
posted by shmegegge at 6:18 AM on May 6, 2005


Why are we concerned with immunity or treaties, They can just rename him from "Head of State" to "Person in charge of foreign Government" and poof, just like he was an "Enemy Combatant" you get to make up whatever rules you want.
posted by Megafly at 10:34 AM on May 6, 2005




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