"People paid for their tickets to see a monkey and so I did it"
May 9, 2005 12:58 AM Subscribe
The shame in spain - thought provoking article about racism in la Liga.
Spain is in denial about its racism.
Maybe this is the case.
Then again, there are a few concepts which apparently even The Guardian is incapable of grasping.
It is impossible for a Spanish person to call anyone a "nigger", as the equivalent of such word does not exist in that tongue. "Negro" means "black". Anyone is free to read racial tones to that word, but there is a world of difference between "negro" and "nigger", as anybody with a basic knowledge of the language knows.
(Additionally, "negro de mierda" does no translate into "black shit" but "shitty black". I see a difference, but I'll let you judge )
The so-called "attack" by coach Aragonés on (opposing team member) black player Henry took place during a training session in a private conversation between Aragonés and a player which was picked up by a mike. Anybody who is in the business of broadcasting private conversations might not be the best judge when it comes to ethics.
Finally, extreme-right / racists Spanish political parties are in the extreme fringe. They simply can't gather enough votes to even reach the lowest ranks of government. And that includes the tiniest, most localized forms of government you can think of.
That said, generally speaking most European football clubs work hard in their constant appeal to the fans' lowest instincts while at the same publicly wondering what has gotten into them ...
posted by magullo at 2:24 AM on May 9, 2005
Maybe this is the case.
Then again, there are a few concepts which apparently even The Guardian is incapable of grasping.
It is impossible for a Spanish person to call anyone a "nigger", as the equivalent of such word does not exist in that tongue. "Negro" means "black". Anyone is free to read racial tones to that word, but there is a world of difference between "negro" and "nigger", as anybody with a basic knowledge of the language knows.
(Additionally, "negro de mierda" does no translate into "black shit" but "shitty black". I see a difference, but I'll let you judge )
The so-called "attack" by coach Aragonés on (opposing team member) black player Henry took place during a training session in a private conversation between Aragonés and a player which was picked up by a mike. Anybody who is in the business of broadcasting private conversations might not be the best judge when it comes to ethics.
Finally, extreme-right / racists Spanish political parties are in the extreme fringe. They simply can't gather enough votes to even reach the lowest ranks of government. And that includes the tiniest, most localized forms of government you can think of.
That said, generally speaking most European football clubs work hard in their constant appeal to the fans' lowest instincts while at the same publicly wondering what has gotten into them ...
posted by magullo at 2:24 AM on May 9, 2005
most European football clubs work hard in their constant appeal to the fans' lowest instincts
Care to offer some evidence of this?
posted by the cuban at 2:29 AM on May 9, 2005
Care to offer some evidence of this?
posted by the cuban at 2:29 AM on May 9, 2005
Entirely depressing article.
The usual fight against racism is such a weird thing. Newspeakish. "If we can all just get people to stop cursing at each other because of geography, love and peaches will follow!"
Gah. Anyway, interesting contrast to the recent post describing racist football chants as being simple team-based taunts, without racial hatred.
posted by catachresoid at 2:36 AM on May 9, 2005
The usual fight against racism is such a weird thing. Newspeakish. "If we can all just get people to stop cursing at each other because of geography, love and peaches will follow!"
Gah. Anyway, interesting contrast to the recent post describing racist football chants as being simple team-based taunts, without racial hatred.
posted by catachresoid at 2:36 AM on May 9, 2005
Care to offer some evidence of this?
It's not hard evidence, but if you get the chance see the [independent] film "Up and Down". It's a Chzech flick about soccer and race in the former Chzech Republic. Really fascinating. LOTS of race issues brought up through soccer.
posted by thedevildancedlightly at 2:36 AM on May 9, 2005
It's not hard evidence, but if you get the chance see the [independent] film "Up and Down". It's a Chzech flick about soccer and race in the former Chzech Republic. Really fascinating. LOTS of race issues brought up through soccer.
posted by thedevildancedlightly at 2:36 AM on May 9, 2005
Jeez, I mean Czech. I can't spell tonight, sorry.
posted by thedevildancedlightly at 2:41 AM on May 9, 2005
posted by thedevildancedlightly at 2:41 AM on May 9, 2005
Well, I guess my only reaction to this is I stopped being surprised that one finds disgusting, low behaviour amongst football fans the day I survived a ride on a train full of Millwall supporters, about twenty years ago.
I think it was when they all eagerly rushed to one side of the train at the sight of a black station worker, leaned out of the windows, started making those amusing monkey noises and hurling bananas at the guy. It occurred to me that they'd actually brought bananas along just so they could do this.
No, I'm not suggesting all football fans are low, disgusting racists. Of course not. I am suggesting that low, disgusting racists seem to enjoy using football as an excuse for their behaviour. And Spain is by no means alone in this. You don't see this sort of thing at the cricket or the rugby.
posted by Decani at 5:59 AM on May 9, 2005
I think it was when they all eagerly rushed to one side of the train at the sight of a black station worker, leaned out of the windows, started making those amusing monkey noises and hurling bananas at the guy. It occurred to me that they'd actually brought bananas along just so they could do this.
No, I'm not suggesting all football fans are low, disgusting racists. Of course not. I am suggesting that low, disgusting racists seem to enjoy using football as an excuse for their behaviour. And Spain is by no means alone in this. You don't see this sort of thing at the cricket or the rugby.
posted by Decani at 5:59 AM on May 9, 2005
The most shameful part of this story is the silence of the white players and team managers and owners.
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
posted by kmtharakan at 6:00 AM on May 9, 2005
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
posted by kmtharakan at 6:00 AM on May 9, 2005
You make a lovely apologist magullo, the only thing you don't explain away is the thousands of Spanish spectators making monkey chants at black players. Perhaps you can give us the simple explanation of what they were actually doing?
posted by biffa at 8:36 AM on May 9, 2005
posted by biffa at 8:36 AM on May 9, 2005
What can people chant at white players during [insert US sport] games?
Devil noises? (not sure what they might be)
Milkshake noises (vanilla only)
I've got it - cow noises! For the milky white complexions! Still, not quite as offensive as monkey noises, but it's a start.
posted by asok at 9:53 AM on May 9, 2005
Devil noises? (not sure what they might be)
Milkshake noises (vanilla only)
I've got it - cow noises! For the milky white complexions! Still, not quite as offensive as monkey noises, but it's a start.
posted by asok at 9:53 AM on May 9, 2005
They were behaving like beasts, biffa. My point is that this is a very cynical and loaded accusation.
posted by magullo at 10:39 AM on May 9, 2005
posted by magullo at 10:39 AM on May 9, 2005
thedevildancelightly: No neocons in Spain? Well, there are these people for starts (notice the sidebar ads). They often publish articles here, and have strong links with these other people, who are headed by this guy. Remember him?
But, to be fair, while a do consider neocons to be arrogant, conceited, megalomaniac and dangerous know-it-alls, I don't think they are particularly bigoted.
And, biffa, I don't see in which way magullo was defending the monkey-chanting idiots. He (quite rightly) clarified some points that were very badly explained in the original link (although I must add that the suffix "...de mierda", after someone's race or origin, does have clear racist connotations in Spanish). And, the bad actions of some Spaniards should not taint all Spaniards, like magullo (or me, for that matter). It isn't as if anti-black racism was the worst there is in Spain, anyway: in my experience, Arabs and Gypsies get a considerably rougher deal.
catachresoid has the best point: a quiet racist is not a cured racist. Just driving away chanting from stadia does not seem to do much against actual discrimination and worse.
posted by Skeptic at 1:18 PM on May 9, 2005
But, to be fair, while a do consider neocons to be arrogant, conceited, megalomaniac and dangerous know-it-alls, I don't think they are particularly bigoted.
And, biffa, I don't see in which way magullo was defending the monkey-chanting idiots. He (quite rightly) clarified some points that were very badly explained in the original link (although I must add that the suffix "...de mierda", after someone's race or origin, does have clear racist connotations in Spanish). And, the bad actions of some Spaniards should not taint all Spaniards, like magullo (or me, for that matter). It isn't as if anti-black racism was the worst there is in Spain, anyway: in my experience, Arabs and Gypsies get a considerably rougher deal.
catachresoid has the best point: a quiet racist is not a cured racist. Just driving away chanting from stadia does not seem to do much against actual discrimination and worse.
posted by Skeptic at 1:18 PM on May 9, 2005
First off I want to say the comments were racist. With a "but." I am not so sure all of these people are racists so much as they know how to use base behaviour to rattle their opponents. Not to make a pun, but they choose to use tactics that get under an opponents skin because it seems to work to them. This certainly doesn't make the behaviour right though, and I applaud the response some are getting... having their fans banned from the grounds.
posted by terrapin at 1:24 PM on May 9, 2005
posted by terrapin at 1:24 PM on May 9, 2005
It is impossible for a Spanish person to call anyone a "nigger", as the equivalent of such word does not exist in that tongue.
It's called globalization. America has exported this word through movies, rap music, and the history book.
posted by chaz at 1:41 PM on May 9, 2005
It's called globalization. America has exported this word through movies, rap music, and the history book.
posted by chaz at 1:41 PM on May 9, 2005
Roberto Carlos presents shirt to known Ultra Sur hoolingan Ochaita
posted by magullo at 3:09 PM on May 9, 2005
posted by magullo at 3:09 PM on May 9, 2005
« Older Fred Burks: Conscientious whistle-blower or... | May the Farm be with you. Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Seriously, it's hardly La Liga that has a race problem in European soccer. Ignoring the nationalism brawls, English fans have been known to make some pretty nasty chants from time to time.
posted by thedevildancedlightly at 2:01 AM on May 9, 2005