Dear Herman, Choose it! Choose to be gay yourself
October 21, 2011 12:28 PM Subscribe
Dan Savage tells Herman Cain to prove that being gay is a choice. (Not really safe for work.) Dan Savage Previously on Metafilter.
Is he sure it's the right Herman Cain?
posted by fullerine at 12:34 PM on October 21, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by fullerine at 12:34 PM on October 21, 2011 [6 favorites]
The obvious logical rhetoric is: If being gay is a choice, then who in their right mind would have chosen to be gay in the Western world at any point in history between ancient Greece and about 1995? What kind of person would weigh their options and decide to be gay in a country where being gay is a capital offense, or a guarantee of a short life and violent death? This isn't about logic, it's about marginalizing a certain group of people by saying that the only thing those people have in common is self-selected.
posted by 2bucksplus at 12:39 PM on October 21, 2011 [53 favorites]
posted by 2bucksplus at 12:39 PM on October 21, 2011 [53 favorites]
Suck my dick and you win the argument.
I wish more arguments were like this.
posted by stinkycheese at 12:39 PM on October 21, 2011 [54 favorites]
I wish more arguments were like this.
posted by stinkycheese at 12:39 PM on October 21, 2011 [54 favorites]
Well, if things are a choice, it is clear that rights are no longer a consideration. That's the argument, I guess?
Therefore, since Herman Cain choose to be a Christian, as would most Christians argue, I propose we begin taxing churches. It's not discriminatory, as he choose to be Christian, and we really could use the money.
posted by mccarty.tim at 12:42 PM on October 21, 2011 [96 favorites]
Therefore, since Herman Cain choose to be a Christian, as would most Christians argue, I propose we begin taxing churches. It's not discriminatory, as he choose to be Christian, and we really could use the money.
posted by mccarty.tim at 12:42 PM on October 21, 2011 [96 favorites]
Yeah, because there's any reason at all for Herman Cain to care what Dan Savage says.
posted by !Jim at 12:42 PM on October 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by !Jim at 12:42 PM on October 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
If being gay was a choice, I'd be gay.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:44 PM on October 21, 2011 [14 favorites]
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:44 PM on October 21, 2011 [14 favorites]
Yeah, because there's any reason at all for Herman Cain to care what Dan Savage says.
Oh, I don't know. Rick Santorum might disagree.
posted by Mcable at 12:45 PM on October 21, 2011 [43 favorites]
Oh, I don't know. Rick Santorum might disagree.
posted by Mcable at 12:45 PM on October 21, 2011 [43 favorites]
gah, the argument over whether it's a choice to be gay or not drives me crazy. why does it matter? even if it's a choice (which it's obviously not but could theoretically be for some) we have zero right to say that gay sex is not allowed. zero.
posted by sineater at 12:46 PM on October 21, 2011 [17 favorites]
posted by sineater at 12:46 PM on October 21, 2011 [17 favorites]
If being gay was a choice, I'd be gay.
*reads*
*thinks*
*looks sideways at comment*
dude
time to call it a choice and run with it!
posted by the mad poster! at 12:46 PM on October 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
*reads*
*thinks*
*looks sideways at comment*
dude
time to call it a choice and run with it!
posted by the mad poster! at 12:46 PM on October 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
"since Herman Cain choose to be a Christian, as would most Christians argue"
Don't be so sure that most Christians would argue that being Christian is a choice. I'm sure that, at the very least, many would argue it isn't.
posted by oddman at 12:47 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Don't be so sure that most Christians would argue that being Christian is a choice. I'm sure that, at the very least, many would argue it isn't.
posted by oddman at 12:47 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
An actual choice: Listing to Herman Cain (or not). Guess which option I've chosen?
posted by theredpen at 12:47 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by theredpen at 12:47 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
‘Morning Joe’ Slams Herman Cain For Claiming That Being Gay Is A ‘Choice’.
posted by ericb at 12:48 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by ericb at 12:48 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
If being gay was a choice, I'd be gay.
I wouldn't. I don't the energy or the fashion sense.
posted by jonmc at 12:49 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't. I don't the energy or the fashion sense.
posted by jonmc at 12:49 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
While we've seen Savage do it before, I'm still amazed at his ability to do it well and consistently. Let's not forget very entertainingly as well.
posted by josher71 at 12:49 PM on October 21, 2011
posted by josher71 at 12:49 PM on October 21, 2011
After having been involved with some of the women I've known in my life, I sometimes wish it was a choice. For chrissakes, Cain is proof that you don't need a brain to be a CEO.
posted by dbiedny at 12:50 PM on October 21, 2011
posted by dbiedny at 12:50 PM on October 21, 2011
I wouldn't. I don't the energy or the fashion sense.
Or the verbs, apparently.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:50 PM on October 21, 2011 [28 favorites]
Or the verbs, apparently.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:50 PM on October 21, 2011 [28 favorites]
I wouldn't. I don't the energy or the fashion sense.
Is the missing word "eat"?
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:51 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
Is the missing word "eat"?
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 12:51 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
The obvious logical rhetoric is: If being gay is a choice, then who in their right mind would have chosen to be gay in the Western world at any point in history between ancient Greece and about 1995?
The internal answer to this involves evil demons and sometimes witches. I am not joking.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 12:51 PM on October 21, 2011 [18 favorites]
The internal answer to this involves evil demons and sometimes witches. I am not joking.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 12:51 PM on October 21, 2011 [18 favorites]
The obvious logical rhetoric is: If being gay is a choice, then who in their right mind would have chosen to be gay in the Western world at any point in history between ancient Greece and about 1995?
Rhetorically I don't really think this is a strong argument. Plenty of people choose to join persecuted groups. If facing a lot of discrimination and physical harm was proof of lack of choice, then nobody would choose to join a religious minority group, a resistance movement, a taboo subculture, etc. A better logical response in my opinion is that he presumably has no personal experience of what makes people gay, and he has no outside proof that his opinion is correct, so why should anyone give his entirely made up theory of human sexuality any credence at all? Not to mention the fact that the whole choice aspect is just a smokescreen that the religious right uses to try to justify their support for systematic discrimination.
posted by burnmp3s at 12:51 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
Rhetorically I don't really think this is a strong argument. Plenty of people choose to join persecuted groups. If facing a lot of discrimination and physical harm was proof of lack of choice, then nobody would choose to join a religious minority group, a resistance movement, a taboo subculture, etc. A better logical response in my opinion is that he presumably has no personal experience of what makes people gay, and he has no outside proof that his opinion is correct, so why should anyone give his entirely made up theory of human sexuality any credence at all? Not to mention the fact that the whole choice aspect is just a smokescreen that the religious right uses to try to justify their support for systematic discrimination.
posted by burnmp3s at 12:51 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
Oh, I don't know. Rick Santorum might disagree.
Caining is already a part of sex terminology.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:52 PM on October 21, 2011 [11 favorites]
Caining is already a part of sex terminology.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:52 PM on October 21, 2011 [11 favorites]
Another pocket smile in the long and nightmarishly embarrassing vaudeville act that is Herman Cain's bid for the GOP nomination.
Imagine there's no pizza people, just imagine it.
posted by godisdad at 12:53 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
Imagine there's no pizza people, just imagine it.
posted by godisdad at 12:53 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
gah, the argument over whether it's a choice to be gay or not drives me crazy. why does it matter? even if it's a choice (which it's obviously not but could theoretically be for some) we have zero right to say that gay sex is not allowed. zero.
Not to mention the fact that the whole choice aspect is just a smokescreen that the religious right uses to try to justify their support for systematic discrimination.
Ayup ayup ayup. Choice should not be a bad word.
posted by kmz at 12:53 PM on October 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
Not to mention the fact that the whole choice aspect is just a smokescreen that the religious right uses to try to justify their support for systematic discrimination.
Ayup ayup ayup. Choice should not be a bad word.
posted by kmz at 12:53 PM on October 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
In related news: John Smid, Former 'Ex-Gay' Leader, Says He Is Gay And Changing Sexual Orientation Is Impossible.
posted by ericb at 12:54 PM on October 21, 2011 [9 favorites]
posted by ericb at 12:54 PM on October 21, 2011 [9 favorites]
The entire point is, "you chose to opt in to my bigoted oppression of you, so it's not my fault." Obviously no science in the world will change Cain's position when that's where it comes from.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:55 PM on October 21, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 12:55 PM on October 21, 2011 [8 favorites]
"Being gay is a choice."
"Okay... and?"
posted by SharkParty at 12:55 PM on October 21, 2011 [12 favorites]
"Okay... and?"
posted by SharkParty at 12:55 PM on October 21, 2011 [12 favorites]
Imagine there's no pizza people
Not Lennon's best work. apologies to irfh
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:56 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Not Lennon's best work. apologies to irfh
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:56 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Cain is proof that you don't need a brain to be a CEO.
I dunno, meaningless political posturing about cultural/social issues seems like a fairly smart tactic for a presidential hopeful
posted by KokuRyu at 12:57 PM on October 21, 2011
I dunno, meaningless political posturing about cultural/social issues seems like a fairly smart tactic for a presidential hopeful
posted by KokuRyu at 12:57 PM on October 21, 2011
Logic already tells me that being gay is a choice, but what also tells me is personal experience: I grew up in a very open, accepting environment, and went into puberty thinking (first) OH GIRLS GIRLS GIRLS and then (a few years later) that I should really be open to anything, because I don't know how much of my desire is innate and how much of it comes from my environment and culture and so on and so forth.
So I left myself open to it; I treated men and women more or less the same, I tried to look at them the same, spend time with them the same. Many years down the road, I simply can't ignore the fact that for me it's girls, all the way down. Or as I have occasionally said, the only thing keeping me from sleeping with men is that I haven't found one I want to sleep with yet. Meanwhile, the girls I want to sleep with, they're everywhere.
posted by davejay at 12:57 PM on October 21, 2011 [16 favorites]
So I left myself open to it; I treated men and women more or less the same, I tried to look at them the same, spend time with them the same. Many years down the road, I simply can't ignore the fact that for me it's girls, all the way down. Or as I have occasionally said, the only thing keeping me from sleeping with men is that I haven't found one I want to sleep with yet. Meanwhile, the girls I want to sleep with, they're everywhere.
posted by davejay at 12:57 PM on October 21, 2011 [16 favorites]
Imagine there's no pizza people, just imagine it.
Voilà.
posted by ericb at 12:59 PM on October 21, 2011
Voilà.
posted by ericb at 12:59 PM on October 21, 2011
I wouldn't. I don't the energy or the fashion sensePlus there's the prohibitive standards of hygiene
and all that dancing
posted by fullerine at 12:59 PM on October 21, 2011 [7 favorites]
sometimes i think the problem is that there are a whole lot more bisexuals running around than anyone wants to admit. if you're bisexual and deeply christian, you probably did choose to be straight (or at least, paired with members of the opposite sex) and excised your "demons." if that's the case, you "know" it's a choice and you think everyone who is gay could easily be straight if they just wanted it bad enough.
i feel lucky that even though i grew up deeply, devoutly christian (mormon), i was able to suss out that being pansexual isn't a choice and it isn't wrong or wishy-washy or not picking a side - it's the way i was born.
sadly, i think bisexuals get shit from both sides and so it doesn't become a talking point because enough gays and straights think it doesn't really exist.
posted by nadawi at 12:59 PM on October 21, 2011 [46 favorites]
i feel lucky that even though i grew up deeply, devoutly christian (mormon), i was able to suss out that being pansexual isn't a choice and it isn't wrong or wishy-washy or not picking a side - it's the way i was born.
sadly, i think bisexuals get shit from both sides and so it doesn't become a talking point because enough gays and straights think it doesn't really exist.
posted by nadawi at 12:59 PM on October 21, 2011 [46 favorites]
So Davejay, what you are saying is that you don't find men sexually attractive... which there is a term for.
posted by SharkParty at 1:01 PM on October 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by SharkParty at 1:01 PM on October 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
ericb: ‘Morning Joe’ Slams Herman Cain For Claiming That Being Gay Is A ‘Choice’
Alternative title: morning news hosts still don't have the spine to say "that was a dumb, incorrect thing to say." Or they didn't realize that when they played the video clip that they'd have to comment on it, and are terrible at speaking without some sort of script.
!Jim: Yeah, because there's any reason at all for Herman Cain to care what Dan Savage says.
Dan Savage is not some random person commenting online. 19,847 people like Herman Cain on Facebook, whereas 125,240 like Dan Savage. It Gets Better, a PSA campaign that is televised across the US, is Dan Savage's project/product, and he is publicly associated with it. In short, Dan Savage is not nobody. There's a chance that some media outlet will paraphrase this down to "If homosexuality is a choice, could Herman Cain prove it and be gay for a day?"
If nothing else, the full quote will get passed around the internet, like a less ugly version of Why haven’t we had an official response to the rumor that Glenn Beck raped and murdered a girl in 1990?
posted by filthy light thief at 1:04 PM on October 21, 2011 [8 favorites]
Alternative title: morning news hosts still don't have the spine to say "that was a dumb, incorrect thing to say." Or they didn't realize that when they played the video clip that they'd have to comment on it, and are terrible at speaking without some sort of script.
!Jim: Yeah, because there's any reason at all for Herman Cain to care what Dan Savage says.
Dan Savage is not some random person commenting online. 19,847 people like Herman Cain on Facebook, whereas 125,240 like Dan Savage. It Gets Better, a PSA campaign that is televised across the US, is Dan Savage's project/product, and he is publicly associated with it. In short, Dan Savage is not nobody. There's a chance that some media outlet will paraphrase this down to "If homosexuality is a choice, could Herman Cain prove it and be gay for a day?"
If nothing else, the full quote will get passed around the internet, like a less ugly version of Why haven’t we had an official response to the rumor that Glenn Beck raped and murdered a girl in 1990?
posted by filthy light thief at 1:04 PM on October 21, 2011 [8 favorites]
Not saying it's going to happen, because human nature pretty much seems to win out no matter how much technology we've got going on, but oh jesus jumped up christ on a sidecar will I be glad when people stop caring what other consenting adults do with their genitals.
posted by Mooski at 1:10 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Mooski at 1:10 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
My gods I'm looking forward to a time when this isn't even a conversation anymore. That these bigots prattle on about liberty and privacy and all that, and then keep getting into the business of who people are attracted to, is just the most irritating kind of hypocrisy.
It shouldn't matter if it is a choice or not.
If you aren't gay, why do you care about this at all? I'm not and I don't, beyond the obvious desire to see that everyone is treated equally and has the same rights.
Fucking stupid wedge issues.
posted by quin at 1:11 PM on October 21, 2011 [7 favorites]
It shouldn't matter if it is a choice or not.
If you aren't gay, why do you care about this at all? I'm not and I don't, beyond the obvious desire to see that everyone is treated equally and has the same rights.
Fucking stupid wedge issues.
posted by quin at 1:11 PM on October 21, 2011 [7 favorites]
I don't think this rhetoric holds much power, because I suspect the people who are most vehement that homosexuality is a choice are secretly attracted to men and are in self-loathing because of it. It's such a weird thing to torture yourself about. Just admit that you're gay or bi and move on, don't punish the rest of us over your psychological turmoil. Personally, if I had a genuine choice I'd happily be bisexual, if only to greatly increase the number of potential partners I click with. I can't just decide to love cock, unfortunately.
posted by naju at 1:11 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by naju at 1:11 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Politicians don't have to prove things; they just have to say things. And even when you have them on tape saying things, they can always say, "I didn't say that," because our fawning and starstruck broadcast journalists won't call them out on lies.
posted by Mister_A at 1:12 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Mister_A at 1:12 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
filthy light thief: "There's a chance that some media outlet will paraphrase this down to "If homosexuality is a choice, could Herman Cain prove it and be gay for a day?" "
And if they don't, there's no harm done.
But this raises awareness that a candidate has taken a stance on a particular issue that matters to a lot of people.
That said, I often wonder how much (if at all) efforts like this have on anyone who is considering voting for a particular candidate. Did Savage's redefinition of 'Santorum' make anyone think twice about voting for the man? I rather doubt it.
posted by zarq at 1:12 PM on October 21, 2011
And if they don't, there's no harm done.
But this raises awareness that a candidate has taken a stance on a particular issue that matters to a lot of people.
That said, I often wonder how much (if at all) efforts like this have on anyone who is considering voting for a particular candidate. Did Savage's redefinition of 'Santorum' make anyone think twice about voting for the man? I rather doubt it.
posted by zarq at 1:12 PM on October 21, 2011
Therefore, since Herman Cain choose to be a Christian, as would most Christians argue, I propose we begin taxing churches. It's not discriminatory, as he choose to be Christian, and we really could use the money.
While I'm all for it, you probably don't want this. The only thing paralyzing the US bishops from speaking publicly more often is the fear of being taxed.
posted by resurrexit at 1:12 PM on October 21, 2011
While I'm all for it, you probably don't want this. The only thing paralyzing the US bishops from speaking publicly more often is the fear of being taxed.
posted by resurrexit at 1:12 PM on October 21, 2011
The thing is people who traffic in Cain-world do not mostly traffic in Savage-world. So Dan's letter will only get paraphrased as the filthy, Godless invective that it isn't. Writing it might make Dan feel better, but Cain doesn't need to respond beyond to say he's being Santorumed by one of those.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:12 PM on October 21, 2011
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:12 PM on October 21, 2011
This is tedious. It doesn't matter if it's choice, this is America dammit and no one gets tell anyone else what to do as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.
Are you over 18? Are you sticking your wang in someone else over 18? Fine, do whatever, use lube and have fun. It's none of my business and it sure as hell isn't the government's.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:12 PM on October 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
Are you over 18? Are you sticking your wang in someone else over 18? Fine, do whatever, use lube and have fun. It's none of my business and it sure as hell isn't the government's.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:12 PM on October 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
Mister_A: "Politicians don't have to prove things; they just have to say things. And even when you have them on tape saying things, they can always say, "I didn't say that," because our fawning and starstruck broadcast journalists won't call them out on lies."
This is not entirely true.
For example:
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman."
posted by zarq at 1:13 PM on October 21, 2011
This is not entirely true.
For example:
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman."
posted by zarq at 1:13 PM on October 21, 2011
Suck my dick and you win the argument.
But he's gotta do it in 15 minutes or less or Savage gets it for free.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:13 PM on October 21, 2011 [21 favorites]
But he's gotta do it in 15 minutes or less or Savage gets it for free.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:13 PM on October 21, 2011 [21 favorites]
So, what if Herman Cain did kneel down and give Dan Savage a blowjob? Would that, in fact, prove that homosexuality is a choice?
posted by silentpundit at 1:14 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by silentpundit at 1:14 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
I have nothing snarky or even relevant to say other than: fuck yeah, thank you Dan.
posted by victors at 1:15 PM on October 21, 2011
posted by victors at 1:15 PM on October 21, 2011
If you aren't gay, why do you care about this at all? I'm not and I don't, beyond the obvious desire to see that everyone is treated equally and has the same rights.
Because saying that being gay is a choice is the beginning of a slippery slope that ends in GLBT children being sent to reparative therapy.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:15 PM on October 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
Because saying that being gay is a choice is the beginning of a slippery slope that ends in GLBT children being sent to reparative therapy.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:15 PM on October 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
If being gay is a choice, show us the proof...show us how a man can choose to be gay. Suck my dick.
That's not really proof, is it? If that were a necessary precondition for public office, couldn't a straight man just treat it as a grim duty, shrug and get it over with?
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:15 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
That's not really proof, is it? If that were a necessary precondition for public office, couldn't a straight man just treat it as a grim duty, shrug and get it over with?
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:15 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Maybe he'll choose to not see it as such a grim duty!
posted by SharkParty at 1:16 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by SharkParty at 1:16 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
if only to greatly increase the number of potential partners I click with
if only this were true - i've known many lesbians and straight men who wouldn't date me because of my sexuality. if anything, i really wished at times in my life that i could just pick a side because it seemed easier then having to constantly explain, "i'm attracted to people, not genders. no, this doesn't mean i think i have a license to cheat or that i can't commit. and no, you're not inadequate just because i have in the past liked both boobs and cock."
posted by nadawi at 1:18 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
if only this were true - i've known many lesbians and straight men who wouldn't date me because of my sexuality. if anything, i really wished at times in my life that i could just pick a side because it seemed easier then having to constantly explain, "i'm attracted to people, not genders. no, this doesn't mean i think i have a license to cheat or that i can't commit. and no, you're not inadequate just because i have in the past liked both boobs and cock."
posted by nadawi at 1:18 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't. I don't the energy or the fashion sense.
Plus there's the prohibitive standards of hygiene
and all that dancing
Haaaaaaave you met Max?
posted by kmz at 1:18 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Plus there's the prohibitive standards of hygiene
and all that dancing
Haaaaaaave you met Max?
posted by kmz at 1:18 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
OK, I'm just going to post this here because Herman Cain is hilarious.
Cain: I'm 100% pro-life.
Interviewer: What about if your daughter or granddaughter was raped? They shouldn't be allowed an abortion?
Cain: "No, it comes down to is, it’s not the government’s role — or anybody else’s role — to make that decision. Secondly, if you look at the statistical incidents, you’re not talking about that big a number. So what I’m saying is, it ultimately gets down to a choice that that family or that mother has to make. Not me as president. Not some politician. Not a bureaucrat. It gets down to that family. And whatever they decide, they decide. I shouldn’t try to tell them what decision to make for such a sensitive decision."
Herman Cain is surprisingly, and hilariously, pro-choice.
posted by auto-correct at 1:19 PM on October 21, 2011 [33 favorites]
Cain: I'm 100% pro-life.
Interviewer: What about if your daughter or granddaughter was raped? They shouldn't be allowed an abortion?
Cain: "No, it comes down to is, it’s not the government’s role — or anybody else’s role — to make that decision. Secondly, if you look at the statistical incidents, you’re not talking about that big a number. So what I’m saying is, it ultimately gets down to a choice that that family or that mother has to make. Not me as president. Not some politician. Not a bureaucrat. It gets down to that family. And whatever they decide, they decide. I shouldn’t try to tell them what decision to make for such a sensitive decision."
Herman Cain is surprisingly, and hilariously, pro-choice.
posted by auto-correct at 1:19 PM on October 21, 2011 [33 favorites]
So, what if Herman Cain did kneel down and give Dan Savage a blowjob? Would that, in fact, prove that homosexuality is a choice?
It would prove Savage has awesome, God-like powers over space, time, and the human mind.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:19 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
It would prove Savage has awesome, God-like powers over space, time, and the human mind.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:19 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
To be fair, I think technically Cain would have to do it and enjoy it.
To see if he liked it or is faking, we could use a polygraph, or better yet, an FMRI.
posted by mccarty.tim at 1:20 PM on October 21, 2011
To see if he liked it or is faking, we could use a polygraph, or better yet, an FMRI.
posted by mccarty.tim at 1:20 PM on October 21, 2011
Rick Santorum's 'Google Problem' Here To Stay For The Gop Presidential Candidate, Say Experts
"Conservative Rick Santorum is hoping to soar with the poll slide of Rick Perry and Michele Bachmann - and the presidential pass taken by Chris Christie and Sarah Palin.posted by ericb at 1:21 PM on October 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
But an anti-Santorum Website that equates his name with a lewd sexual act continues to cloud his campaign.
Thanks to syndicated columnist Dan Savage - outraged over Santorum's opposition to many gay issues - the top-ranked Google search for the Republican's name is a made-up reference to a by-product of sodomy.
Savage's Website also tops search results for the former Pennsylvania senator's name in search engines like Bing and Yahoo.
Santorum has acknowledged his so-called 'Google problem' in the past, and has even reportedly contacted the search engine with a request to bury the page.
But experts say the search results are here to stay."
But experts say the search results are here to stay
Hah. Good.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:22 PM on October 21, 2011
Hah. Good.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:22 PM on October 21, 2011
i would love if more people understood that you can be personally pro-life and politically pro-choice. i think it's a good arguing point to bring up to the libertarians - if you value personal choice and autonomy, then how can you support state intervention on a (sometimes life saving) medical procedure? do you think the government should be consulted to remove tumors?
posted by nadawi at 1:23 PM on October 21, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:23 PM on October 21, 2011 [7 favorites]
Even during the era when I considered myself Christian, I never was of the opinion that being gay was a choice. Ever since I had any attraction to anyone, it was always attraction to females. For women, I often imagined doing sexy sex things with them, and those thoughts were very pleasurable. I never felt like doing sexy sex things with other men. I never chose to be turned on by women and not men.
I'm not being ad hominem when I say that anyone who considers homosexuality a choice has had at least some genuine sexy thoughts about the same gender, and has chosen to ignore them or resist them.
That's simply the only explanation for why the notion of "choosing" any sort of sexual attraction persists.
posted by chimaera at 1:25 PM on October 21, 2011
I'm not being ad hominem when I say that anyone who considers homosexuality a choice has had at least some genuine sexy thoughts about the same gender, and has chosen to ignore them or resist them.
That's simply the only explanation for why the notion of "choosing" any sort of sexual attraction persists.
posted by chimaera at 1:25 PM on October 21, 2011
santorum doesn't have a google problem, he has an internet problem.
BING!
posted by nadawi at 1:26 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
BING!
posted by nadawi at 1:26 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
So, what if Herman Cain did kneel down and give Dan Savage a blowjob?
I would plotz.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:26 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
I would plotz.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:26 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
So Davejay, what you are saying is that you don't find men sexually attractive... which there is a term for.
ACK! I typed "that being gay is a choice" but OBVIOUSLY I meant to say "that being gay is NOT a choice", and apparently typing what I mean to say is a choice that i didn't make. My apologies for confusing the hell out of anybody who knows how I feel about this stuff.
Being gay is not a choice. Just so we're clear. NOT A CHOICE.
argh.
posted by davejay at 1:28 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
ACK! I typed "that being gay is a choice" but OBVIOUSLY I meant to say "that being gay is NOT a choice", and apparently typing what I mean to say is a choice that i didn't make. My apologies for confusing the hell out of anybody who knows how I feel about this stuff.
Being gay is not a choice. Just so we're clear. NOT A CHOICE.
argh.
posted by davejay at 1:28 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
davejay flip-flopped! How can we trust anything he says now?
posted by Mister_A at 1:31 PM on October 21, 2011 [17 favorites]
posted by Mister_A at 1:31 PM on October 21, 2011 [17 favorites]
Today, listening to the radio, I figured out Herman Cain. He's the mascot for the 2012 Republican Presidential Primary race, the guy in the elephant outfit.
His actions makes no official contribution, but he calls people's attention to it and gets people excited about it.
The radio commentators were wondering why he was doing so well in the polls. Well, it's easy to cheer for the mascot. Regardless of what's happening in the real competition, the mascot is there on the sidelines, acting as if he scored a touchdown. The mascot is always winning.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:31 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
His actions makes no official contribution, but he calls people's attention to it and gets people excited about it.
The radio commentators were wondering why he was doing so well in the polls. Well, it's easy to cheer for the mascot. Regardless of what's happening in the real competition, the mascot is there on the sidelines, acting as if he scored a touchdown. The mascot is always winning.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:31 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
Being gay is not a choice. Just so we're clear. NOT A CHOICE.
Sure, you say that now.
posted by Floydd at 1:32 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sure, you say that now.
posted by Floydd at 1:32 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Being gay is not a choice. Just so we're clear. NOT A CHOICE.
There is only one way to prove this.
posted by SharkParty at 1:35 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
There is only one way to prove this.
posted by SharkParty at 1:35 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
SharkParty, you name the time and place and I'll chose not to be gay with you.
posted by 2bucksplus at 1:39 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by 2bucksplus at 1:39 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Dear right-wingers and christian conservatives...given the sheer level of hatred and bigotry you express toward them every day, why the hell would anyone choose to be gay?
posted by Thorzdad at 1:43 PM on October 21, 2011
posted by Thorzdad at 1:43 PM on October 21, 2011
More importantly, why would so many vituperatively anti-gay male Christian republican politicians choose to be gay instead of just choosing to be heterosexual?
posted by clockzero at 1:51 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by clockzero at 1:51 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
I love Herman Cain because he is the purest, un-edited examplar of the GOP's attempts to hold so many self-contradictory positions at once. Except that unlike the other candidates, he doesn't have the polish to do it with the press without show at least some strain on his logic circuits.
posted by dry white toast at 1:52 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by dry white toast at 1:52 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
I love Herman Cain because he is the purest, un-edited examplar of the GOP's attempts to hold so many self-contradictory positions at once. Except that unlike the other candidates, he doesn't have the polish to do it with the press without show at least some strain on his logic circuits.
Exactly. It's like having a glimpse inside the true heart of the republican movement without the lies and the PR gloss. Cain hasn't let learned that it is impossible to be both a social conservative and a small-govt conservative at the same time (except in rhetoric only), and the battle between those two aspects of the GOP is playing out in live action in the person of Herman Cain. Throw in the most regressive tax plan humanly possible, and it's clear that Herman Cain IS the republican party.
posted by auto-correct at 1:59 PM on October 21, 2011 [7 favorites]
Exactly. It's like having a glimpse inside the true heart of the republican movement without the lies and the PR gloss. Cain hasn't let learned that it is impossible to be both a social conservative and a small-govt conservative at the same time (except in rhetoric only), and the battle between those two aspects of the GOP is playing out in live action in the person of Herman Cain. Throw in the most regressive tax plan humanly possible, and it's clear that Herman Cain IS the republican party.
posted by auto-correct at 1:59 PM on October 21, 2011 [7 favorites]
jph: "If he goes gay, I'm going straight."
If he goes gay, I'm going uni-cellular.
posted by Splunge at 2:10 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
If he goes gay, I'm going uni-cellular.
posted by Splunge at 2:10 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
If Rick "The Frothy Mixture" Santorum won the presidency, we'd hold an epic world wide campaign to maintain spreadingsantorum.com's page rank.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:21 PM on October 21, 2011
posted by jeffburdges at 2:21 PM on October 21, 2011
I think just a blow job is setting the bar rather low..
posted by Maias at 2:23 PM on October 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Maias at 2:23 PM on October 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
I had to look up "vituperatively". Thanks for that. I'm sure there's a word for "some idiot I pay no attention to because he's an idiot", but I dont know what that is. Maybe it's Herman Cain.
And I respect the heck out of Dan Savage even if I disagree with him.
posted by elendil71 at 2:26 PM on October 21, 2011
And I respect the heck out of Dan Savage even if I disagree with him.
posted by elendil71 at 2:26 PM on October 21, 2011
Is this some sort of "Scared Straight" program in reverse? (digging out some 80s VHS instructionals...)
posted by snap_dragon at 2:34 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by snap_dragon at 2:34 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
So, what if Herman Cain did kneel down and give Dan Savage a blowjob?
I'd be kind of surprised if Dan could get it up for Herman, frankly.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:52 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'd be kind of surprised if Dan could get it up for Herman, frankly.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:52 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'll suck his dick. When and where do I go, exactly?
posted by sexyrobot at 3:13 PM on October 21, 2011
posted by sexyrobot at 3:13 PM on October 21, 2011
Did Savage's redefinition of 'Santorum' make anyone think twice about voting for the man? I rather doubt it.
Did anyone ever search for "Santorum," see the result and decide, only then, that they'd vote for somebody else? Probably not. Did the "Santorum" redefining effort make Santorum look like a less serious candidate, thereby pushing potential supporters toward candidates without such Google problems? Probably.
posted by aaronetc at 3:24 PM on October 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
Did anyone ever search for "Santorum," see the result and decide, only then, that they'd vote for somebody else? Probably not. Did the "Santorum" redefining effort make Santorum look like a less serious candidate, thereby pushing potential supporters toward candidates without such Google problems? Probably.
posted by aaronetc at 3:24 PM on October 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
I heard if you want to manage a Burger King you gotta suck the owners dick. It is the only way to be promoted in the fast food industry.
posted by humanfont at 3:28 PM on October 21, 2011
posted by humanfont at 3:28 PM on October 21, 2011
Suck my dick and you win the argument.
If instead, Cain wants Savage to bend him over and penetrate him like a hot little man-slut, does he still win the argument?
posted by Skygazer at 3:33 PM on October 21, 2011
If instead, Cain wants Savage to bend him over and penetrate him like a hot little man-slut, does he still win the argument?
posted by Skygazer at 3:33 PM on October 21, 2011
ShawnString's post was deleted, but it seems relevent to this discussion: Shit Herman Cain Says
posted by JHarris at 3:34 PM on October 21, 2011
posted by JHarris at 3:34 PM on October 21, 2011
mccarty.tim: To see if he liked it or is faking, we could use a polygraph, or better yet, an FMRI.
Fellatio Magnetic Resonance Imaging?
posted by dr_dank at 3:37 PM on October 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
Fellatio Magnetic Resonance Imaging?
posted by dr_dank at 3:37 PM on October 21, 2011 [3 favorites]
As much as I appreciate the sentiment behind Savage's challenge, I think it could have done without the 'suck my dick and you win the argument' part. Just 'turn yourself gay, please' would have been fine.
(And I don't dislike the 'suck my dick' thing just because it's juvenile; it also isn't proving his point. It's actually doing the opposite, because people like Cain try their hardest to reduce sexual orientation solely to the kinds of sex acts one engages in. Savage is unwittingly playing into their hands with this one.)
posted by anaximander at 3:37 PM on October 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
(And I don't dislike the 'suck my dick' thing just because it's juvenile; it also isn't proving his point. It's actually doing the opposite, because people like Cain try their hardest to reduce sexual orientation solely to the kinds of sex acts one engages in. Savage is unwittingly playing into their hands with this one.)
posted by anaximander at 3:37 PM on October 21, 2011 [5 favorites]
Dan Savage Previously on Metafilter.
Dan Savage most previously on MetaFilter.
posted by y2karl at 3:47 PM on October 21, 2011
Dan Savage most previously on MetaFilter.
posted by y2karl at 3:47 PM on October 21, 2011
I wouldn't. I don't the energy or the fashion sense.
Or the verbs, apparently.
Cut me some slack, dude. I sprained a ligament in my wrist and the got me in this gauntlet-type black brace that makes me look like Darth Vader. Or Jesus Quintana.
posted by jonmc at 3:54 PM on October 21, 2011
Or the verbs, apparently.
Cut me some slack, dude. I sprained a ligament in my wrist and the got me in this gauntlet-type black brace that makes me look like Darth Vader. Or Jesus Quintana.
posted by jonmc at 3:54 PM on October 21, 2011
I think just a blow job is setting the bar rather low..
Come on, we *all* know that it wouldn't count as being gay if Cain got to pitch...
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:59 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Come on, we *all* know that it wouldn't count as being gay if Cain got to pitch...
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:59 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
According to Dan Savage, “And then I’ll say this: when someone argues that being gay is a choice, he’s not just insulting gay people. (And ignoring the science of sexual orientation.) He’s insulting straight people. If homosexuality is a choice, then so is heterosexuality.
So why is it an insult to either gay or straight people to say that sexual orientation is a choice? It doesn't feel to me like I chose to be gay, but I believe the science that says I can make choices based on unconscious drives, so maybe it is a choice and I don't know it. Either way, I don't get what makes it insulting for people to say it is, whether their claim is true of false.
I know that insisting that homosexuality is a choice is often the justification for anti-gay discrimination, so I'm not saying I don't suspect those who make that claim of having bad motivations. But I don't get why I should be insulted by the claim that I chose to suck cock and take it up the ass.
Actually, upon reflection I'd have to say that being homosexual doesn't feel like a choice to me, but being gay does, in the sense that I think it's useful to make a distinction along the lines of: I was a homosexual before I came out, but only gay once I did it. In that sense, being gay is certainly a choice, and an important one.
I think that's part of why I'm also skeptical of Savage's claim that there is convincing scientific evidence that being gay is a choice--because it's not my experience that there are clear, consistent definitions for the words "gay" and "homosexual"
posted by layceepee at 4:00 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
So why is it an insult to either gay or straight people to say that sexual orientation is a choice? It doesn't feel to me like I chose to be gay, but I believe the science that says I can make choices based on unconscious drives, so maybe it is a choice and I don't know it. Either way, I don't get what makes it insulting for people to say it is, whether their claim is true of false.
I know that insisting that homosexuality is a choice is often the justification for anti-gay discrimination, so I'm not saying I don't suspect those who make that claim of having bad motivations. But I don't get why I should be insulted by the claim that I chose to suck cock and take it up the ass.
Actually, upon reflection I'd have to say that being homosexual doesn't feel like a choice to me, but being gay does, in the sense that I think it's useful to make a distinction along the lines of: I was a homosexual before I came out, but only gay once I did it. In that sense, being gay is certainly a choice, and an important one.
I think that's part of why I'm also skeptical of Savage's claim that there is convincing scientific evidence that being gay is a choice--because it's not my experience that there are clear, consistent definitions for the words "gay" and "homosexual"
posted by layceepee at 4:00 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Fucking stupid wedge issues.
I've been thinking for some time this should be the response, whether it's gay marriage, outlawing abortion, hating Muslims, the 2nd amendment, or raising taxes (in the abstract). Basically, don't respond to the issue itself, respond to the fact that it's a wedge issue meant only to divide the electorate and not to be taken as a serious issue.
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:17 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've been thinking for some time this should be the response, whether it's gay marriage, outlawing abortion, hating Muslims, the 2nd amendment, or raising taxes (in the abstract). Basically, don't respond to the issue itself, respond to the fact that it's a wedge issue meant only to divide the electorate and not to be taken as a serious issue.
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:17 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Dan Savage is not some random person commenting online. 19,847 people like Herman Cain on Facebook, whereas 125,240 like Dan Savage.
I'm strongly tempted to say that the logic used in this comment horrifies me more than anything Herman Cain has ever said.
posted by straight at 4:18 PM on October 21, 2011
I'm strongly tempted to say that the logic used in this comment horrifies me more than anything Herman Cain has ever said.
posted by straight at 4:18 PM on October 21, 2011
It has been an electoral tactic of the right to push anti-gay ballot initiatives since 1998. But with bans already in place in the vast majority of states how much more can they do with the old queer boogyman? One thing that I notice that is different from 2004 (and 2008 to a lesser degree) is the major candidates keeping relatively quiet about their stances. I can't find it on the issues page on the campaign websites for Rick Perry or Mitt Romeny. If you want to see the bigots you have to dig deep to bottom of the polls with Bachmann.
Take comfort. It is a loosing issue. A Public Policy Polling poll found that 60% of Utah voters supported some recognition of same sex relationships (23% support marriage. 37% civil unions. 39% assholes who don't support any recognition). That is in freakin' Utah, the reddest state in the union.
That said, a GOP presidential candidate with bigoted views? That is as shocking as shit in a colostomy bag. I am not sure how Dan has the stamina to demand so many bigots suck his dick.
posted by munchingzombie at 4:21 PM on October 21, 2011
Take comfort. It is a loosing issue. A Public Policy Polling poll found that 60% of Utah voters supported some recognition of same sex relationships (23% support marriage. 37% civil unions. 39% assholes who don't support any recognition). That is in freakin' Utah, the reddest state in the union.
That said, a GOP presidential candidate with bigoted views? That is as shocking as shit in a colostomy bag. I am not sure how Dan has the stamina to demand so many bigots suck his dick.
posted by munchingzombie at 4:21 PM on October 21, 2011
I'd like to see the science that proves that any of our actions are a result of making a "free choice" whatever the hell that is.
posted by straight at 4:22 PM on October 21, 2011
posted by straight at 4:22 PM on October 21, 2011
I'd like to see the science that proves that any of our actions are a result of making a "free choice" whatever the hell that is.
I would love to see the hard determinists enter the fray. Herman Cain could suck a king-sized bag of dicks, and LaPlace's demon would be like, QED.
posted by Beardman at 4:26 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
I would love to see the hard determinists enter the fray. Herman Cain could suck a king-sized bag of dicks, and LaPlace's demon would be like, QED.
posted by Beardman at 4:26 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
If being gay is a choice, implicitly heterosexuality is also a matter of choice. Is Cain then asserting that any children (or adults I suppose) who have yet to make the choice are potentially both gay and straight at the same time? Is Cain effectively positing the existence of Schrodinger's bisexuals?
posted by biffa at 4:33 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by biffa at 4:33 PM on October 21, 2011 [4 favorites]
Here's why these people* will never admit that being gay is not a "choice", no matter what evidence you put before them, no matter what logic you wield:
1. The bible is the literal word of god/christianity is not some made up BS
2. The bible says being gay is a sin
3. Committing a sin results in eternal suffering
4. If you are "created" to be gay, then you are created to be damned/broken/wrong etc.
5. God WOULD NOT create his people in an already damned state.
So for them to admit that being gay is a state you're born into, they would have to admit to God making mistakes. You see the the problem here?
*people, I first typed shitbirds, then assholes instead, then after a few more iterations decided to try to be a little more diplomatic.
posted by Chekhovian at 4:50 PM on October 21, 2011 [6 favorites]
1. The bible is the literal word of god/christianity is not some made up BS
2. The bible says being gay is a sin
3. Committing a sin results in eternal suffering
4. If you are "created" to be gay, then you are created to be damned/broken/wrong etc.
5. God WOULD NOT create his people in an already damned state.
So for them to admit that being gay is a state you're born into, they would have to admit to God making mistakes. You see the the problem here?
*people, I first typed shitbirds, then assholes instead, then after a few more iterations decided to try to be a little more diplomatic.
posted by Chekhovian at 4:50 PM on October 21, 2011 [6 favorites]
Then maybe someone can challenge Dan Savage on how bisexuality isn't an indecisive choice.
posted by ShawnStruck at 4:51 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by ShawnStruck at 4:51 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
What would happen if Cain called Savage's bluff? He wouldn't, I know, but I wonder what Savage would do?
Also, jonmc, are you saying that you are missing the fashion sense and higher energy levels required for homosexuality, but you do have the limp wrist? when did high energy leels become part of the stereotype anyway? I thought a general listlessness was the way Hollywood told me gay people comported themselves.
posted by Cassford at 4:53 PM on October 21, 2011
Also, jonmc, are you saying that you are missing the fashion sense and higher energy levels required for homosexuality, but you do have the limp wrist? when did high energy leels become part of the stereotype anyway? I thought a general listlessness was the way Hollywood told me gay people comported themselves.
posted by Cassford at 4:53 PM on October 21, 2011
Haaaaaaave you met Max?
I want my wardrobe back Max.
posted by The Whelk at 4:58 PM on October 21, 2011
poll slide of Rick Perry
Wait wait, now Perry's choosing to be gay?
sorry
posted by GodricVT at 5:12 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Wait wait, now Perry's choosing to be gay?
sorry
posted by GodricVT at 5:12 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Herman Cain believes that heterosexuality is something a heterosexual can decide to walk away from, like a underwater house or a lousy meal.
Oooh, I want an underwater house I can walk away from!
posted by crossoverman at 5:27 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oooh, I want an underwater house I can walk away from!
posted by crossoverman at 5:27 PM on October 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'd be kind of surprised if Dan could get it up for Herman, frankly.
What's the Gay equivalent of "Lie back and think of England?"
posted by Mcable at 5:31 PM on October 21, 2011
What's the Gay equivalent of "Lie back and think of England?"
posted by Mcable at 5:31 PM on October 21, 2011
5. God WOULD NOT create his people in an already damned state.
He didn't.
According to the creation myth and interpretation plenty of Christians prefer, God created his people (Adam and Eve, anyhow) in a sinless state then offered them the choice to sin or not. They chose to sin, got evicted from the Garden of Eden, and humanity fell into a general state of sinfulness, where it remains. So God's perfect creation is fallen and we're all damned.
The out we have (playing along) is accepting the salvation purchased by Christ's sacrifice. Take it in a repentant spirit and you're good to go: All your sins are washed away.
Depending on your flavor of Christianity, there are several ways that works. I've talked to people of the "saved once, saved always" school of thought, who think just what that says; and there are people who think a confession/penance/absolution will sort of do a quick spot-clean of any sinning you've done since your last one. From what I've read of Mormonism, they're not happy anybody's gay, but their FAQ says they'll only excommunicate people who act on it.
But there are also people who think the mere urge ... "looking upon another with lust" ... constitutes a sinful act. It seems to me that most people who have any sort of sexuality at all are probably subject to looking upon others with lust, and that gay lustful looks aren't really qualitatively different from straight lustful looks. I guess they're stacking the deck against the gay folks because they're allowed to look upon their own spouses with lust in their hearts but prefer to deny access to the institution that would let gay folks look at any spouse at all, let alone lustfully.
Anyhow ... no. I don't think you've found a doctrinal logic bomb that'll make Herman Cain's numbered necklace flash erratically before he tips over ("HERMAN ... COORDINATE! HERMAN ... COORDINATE!") If you proved somehow that there was an ironclad, immutable biological imperative to be gay and that it sucked for God to make people be that way, many of "these people" would just tell you we all have to play the hand we've been dealt, that we've all been born into a sinful world, that we're all stained with original sin, and that we all have a choice to not sin. Maybe they'd be troubled briefly by the relative unfairness of it, but these are people who are already ideologically reconciled to unfairness and doctrinally disposed to writing something like that off to their imperfect understanding of God's will.
posted by mph at 5:33 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
He didn't.
According to the creation myth and interpretation plenty of Christians prefer, God created his people (Adam and Eve, anyhow) in a sinless state then offered them the choice to sin or not. They chose to sin, got evicted from the Garden of Eden, and humanity fell into a general state of sinfulness, where it remains. So God's perfect creation is fallen and we're all damned.
The out we have (playing along) is accepting the salvation purchased by Christ's sacrifice. Take it in a repentant spirit and you're good to go: All your sins are washed away.
Depending on your flavor of Christianity, there are several ways that works. I've talked to people of the "saved once, saved always" school of thought, who think just what that says; and there are people who think a confession/penance/absolution will sort of do a quick spot-clean of any sinning you've done since your last one. From what I've read of Mormonism, they're not happy anybody's gay, but their FAQ says they'll only excommunicate people who act on it.
But there are also people who think the mere urge ... "looking upon another with lust" ... constitutes a sinful act. It seems to me that most people who have any sort of sexuality at all are probably subject to looking upon others with lust, and that gay lustful looks aren't really qualitatively different from straight lustful looks. I guess they're stacking the deck against the gay folks because they're allowed to look upon their own spouses with lust in their hearts but prefer to deny access to the institution that would let gay folks look at any spouse at all, let alone lustfully.
Anyhow ... no. I don't think you've found a doctrinal logic bomb that'll make Herman Cain's numbered necklace flash erratically before he tips over ("HERMAN ... COORDINATE! HERMAN ... COORDINATE!") If you proved somehow that there was an ironclad, immutable biological imperative to be gay and that it sucked for God to make people be that way, many of "these people" would just tell you we all have to play the hand we've been dealt, that we've all been born into a sinful world, that we're all stained with original sin, and that we all have a choice to not sin. Maybe they'd be troubled briefly by the relative unfairness of it, but these are people who are already ideologically reconciled to unfairness and doctrinally disposed to writing something like that off to their imperfect understanding of God's will.
posted by mph at 5:33 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
What's the Gay equivalent of "Lie back and think of England?"
"Lie back and think of Hugh Jackman."
posted by mightygodking at 7:47 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
"Lie back and think of Hugh Jackman."
posted by mightygodking at 7:47 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
jonmc: "I wouldn't. I don't the energy or the fashion sense.
Or the verbs, apparently.
Cut me some slack, dude. I sprained a ligament in my wrist and the got me in this gauntlet-type black brace that makes me look like Darth Vader. Or Jesus Quintana."
I think the back brace goes on your back. Not your face. And why would you have a back brace for your wrist?
Luke, I am your chiropractor!
posted by Splunge at 7:48 PM on October 21, 2011
Or the verbs, apparently.
Cut me some slack, dude. I sprained a ligament in my wrist and the got me in this gauntlet-type black brace that makes me look like Darth Vader. Or Jesus Quintana."
I think the back brace goes on your back. Not your face. And why would you have a back brace for your wrist?
Luke, I am your chiropractor!
posted by Splunge at 7:48 PM on October 21, 2011
Nevermind. Luke I am shitfaced. Or shitwristed. Or something. Sorry.
posted by Splunge at 7:49 PM on October 21, 2011
posted by Splunge at 7:49 PM on October 21, 2011
Imagine there's no pizza people, just imagine it.
I don't have to imagine. *sob*
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:05 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
I don't have to imagine. *sob*
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:05 PM on October 21, 2011 [2 favorites]
Seriously fuck every single Republican candidate. Assholes are supposed to represent all of us. Do we have to keep doing we're here we're queer forever or will those pig ignorant shitstains eventually just forfeit that one on points? It's 2011, 2011 and gay people have been around at least as long as that yellow journalism pulp adventure serial the fuckers worship. If their bullshit ass metaphysics was going to get rid of us, wouldn't it already have worked?
posted by Peztopiary at 1:08 AM on October 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Peztopiary at 1:08 AM on October 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Now, now boys & girls. Hermann didn't choose to be a dolt. He came by it the old-fashioned way.
posted by Twang at 2:14 AM on October 22, 2011
posted by Twang at 2:14 AM on October 22, 2011
Clinton literally schooling Cain, in case you needed some rage relief.
posted by Chekhovian at 2:43 AM on October 22, 2011
posted by Chekhovian at 2:43 AM on October 22, 2011
i wish my fellow gays would stop buying into this idea that we have to justify our existence by asserting it's not a choice, but rather argue that we have a right to self-determination whether it is choice or not.
posted by fallacy of the beard at 10:18 AM on October 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by fallacy of the beard at 10:18 AM on October 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
I know several tea-baggers who are pretty open with the fact that their main problem with Obama is that he's black. I'm of the opinion that the majority of hard-line right wingers feel the same.
The idea that they would choose another black man to represent them is laughable. They are pretending to support Cain as a "fuck you" to Romney because he's too far to their left. I don't doubt that Romney is well aware of this, but I'm not sure if Cain is.
Show me a man who chooses to spend a lot of time loudly railing against the Gay Menace and I'll show you a man who chooses to have a browser cache full of pictures and videos of naked twinks.
posted by double block and bleed at 1:01 PM on October 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
The idea that they would choose another black man to represent them is laughable. They are pretending to support Cain as a "fuck you" to Romney because he's too far to their left. I don't doubt that Romney is well aware of this, but I'm not sure if Cain is.
Show me a man who chooses to spend a lot of time loudly railing against the Gay Menace and I'll show you a man who chooses to have a browser cache full of pictures and videos of naked twinks.
posted by double block and bleed at 1:01 PM on October 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I assume Perry's people called up Romney's people and were like, "Hey, let's just let this jerkwad Cain take the limelight for a coupla weeks, he's harmless and will make us seem inclusive while we sort out our issues." If a Republican wins the race they'll pay him off with an ambassadorship or maybe even an executive post.
posted by miyabo at 8:32 AM on October 23, 2011
posted by miyabo at 8:32 AM on October 23, 2011
Cain has since gone to FoxNews to "clarify" his position on abortion:
MacCALLUM: The question is do you believe abortion should be legal in this country for families who want to make that decision?posted by argonauta at 3:42 PM on October 23, 2011
CAIN: No, no, no, I do not believe abortion should be legal in this country if that’s the question.
MacCALLUM: Then you’re saying that if those circumstances come up and the family does make that decision, that they decide that that is the best thing for this young person, or she decides that on her own if that’s what they decided that it would be an illegal abortion that they would need to seek.
CAIN: It would be an illegal abortion. Look, abortion should not be legal, that is clear, but if that family made a decision to break the law, that is that family’s decision, that’s all I’m trying to stay.
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posted by jph at 12:34 PM on October 21, 2011 [8 favorites]