Peek-a-boo!

November 5, 2011 3:53 PM

Seth Rogan's furry self and demeanor makes him prime gazing material for the bear community. He recently talked about this (and a resulting portfolio of fantasy nude drawings of himself) with Conan O'Brian. More samples and ordering information for that publication (as well as uncensored images) can be found here. (NSFW)

Pinups Magazine (the publishers of this collection) has been mentioned on The Blue before. A recent issue features Guillermo Diaz, an actor of not minor fame.

posted by hippybear (75 comments total)

I like how the site had a coy note "click on image to see more." But, but, How much more can he show?
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:02 PM on November 5, 2011 [2 favorites]

Browsing the magazine archives, I like how many of these men are smiling and happy.

Also adorable.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:05 PM on November 5, 2011

also epony-adorable :)
posted by supermedusa at 4:13 PM on November 5, 2011 [3 favorites]

You know, I had some stupid knee-jerk dislike of Seth Rogen for years, without ever having watched one of his movies. Then I startet dating my film-geek partner (who has an equal love of the high and the low) and now I find that I really love some of his performances. This definitely ups the awesome ante for me.
posted by mykescipark at 4:18 PM on November 5, 2011

Kevin Smith even has his own bear-positive action figure.
posted by bpm140 at 4:28 PM on November 5, 2011

And here I thought his love-letter to the gay community was his romantic comedy, "Pineapple Express."
posted by hermitosis at 4:34 PM on November 5, 2011 [11 favorites]

What's the gay community's address? I'd like to send some love letters too.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 4:37 PM on November 5, 2011 [3 favorites]

Send all mail to me, I will forward.
posted by hermitosis at 4:41 PM on November 5, 2011 [9 favorites]

I watch Gay USA every week, and know that the gay community's email address is [e-mail].
posted by hippybear at 4:56 PM on November 5, 2011

That's okay I'm making decent headway through hermitosis.
posted by villanelles at dawn at 5:02 PM on November 5, 2011 [1 favorite]

That's okay I'm making decent headway through hermitosis.

That's what he said?

Sorry! Sorry. So sorry.
posted by Diablevert at 5:08 PM on November 5, 2011 [12 favorites]

Hurray for random gay thread! Gives me an excuse to link to this

Tom, AKA @GayCanuck (whose actual identity will be revealed in the coming weeks), took a shot at becoming the new hockey blogger for a local Vancouver paper. Spoiler alert: Hijinks ensue!

Worth checking out for what he did to Don Cherry alone. Therre's also a Where's Waldo element to it involving Ryan Kesler and his Keslurking addiction.
posted by mannequito at 5:09 PM on November 5, 2011

So how heavy does one need to be to qualify as a bear? Since quitting smoking I'm well over 200lbs and since spraining my wrist, I've been unable to trim my beard and it's entering mountain man territory. Am I a bear or some other animal?

(I'm very staright, but I dig the idea of being an icon. or something.)
posted by jonmc at 5:13 PM on November 5, 2011 [1 favorite]

I have long said that I loved PINUPS cause the guys kind of looked like me, which never happens.

I have said I like Seth Rogan cause he looks like every guy I seriously dated.

So this is just wonderful, right here.
posted by The Whelk at 5:29 PM on November 5, 2011

So how heavy does one need to be to qualify as a bear? Since quitting smoking I'm well over 200lbs and since spraining my wrist, I've been unable to trim my beard and it's entering mountain man territory. Am I a bear or some other animal?

I demand a full portfolio of photographs in order to be able to fully ascertain whether you're a bear or not. Nudes are better. Memail me with a link. I'll get back to you as soon as I reasonably can with a complete assessment of your bear status.
posted by hippybear at 5:53 PM on November 5, 2011 [2 favorites]

The Bear Council is ruthless and unforgiving, you will be Tested.
posted by The Whelk at 5:57 PM on November 5, 2011 [6 favorites]

(Beer blast to follow)
posted by The Whelk at 5:58 PM on November 5, 2011

And here I thought his love-letter to the gay community was his romantic comedy, "Pineapple Express."

Oh god yes, that was totally a love story. Which leads me to....

Hi James Franco, I know you like gays and gay culture and exploring masculinity and all that, but seriously, if you want to keep mining our subculture for things you really got to commit, embrace it. You musn't lurk in doorways, it's rude.

What I'm saying is you know Marlon Brando got a few cocks in him, take one for the team James, it'll help the knowledge that you're probably going to get to be Mapplethorpe in the adaptation of Just Kids go down just a little easier.
posted by The Whelk at 6:05 PM on November 5, 2011 [4 favorites]

I thought that Rogan would be an otter because of his age. Maybe I'm confused? I bet I'm confused.
posted by Roman Graves at 6:17 PM on November 5, 2011 [1 favorite]

otters are thinnish but hairy.

WHY DO I KNOW THIS
posted by The Whelk at 6:21 PM on November 5, 2011 [6 favorites]

Wait, so otters aren't ottermode?
posted by villanelles at dawn at 6:27 PM on November 5, 2011

not a homme but an omelet.
posted by The Whelk at 6:28 PM on November 5, 2011 [1 favorite]

Would Chris March be considered a bear?
posted by drezdn at 6:30 PM on November 5, 2011

that's pretty much a prime example along the chubby axis* yes.

*sexual categorizations are like dance music fans, endlessly dividing into incestuous micro genres.
posted by The Whelk at 6:32 PM on November 5, 2011

This is fun. I have an idea of how it feels.

I recently went to a friends birthday party. My wife was the only woman and all the men had beards. I feel privileged to have been called a bear, and to know that if i ever become gay there are at least 25 cool dudes willing and able to show me the ropes ans to provide room, board and entertainment.

That should teach the wife not to take me for granted.
posted by Ayn Rand and God at 6:51 PM on November 5, 2011 [11 favorites]

Seriously, when I got into the bear community back in, um.. 1990? "Bear" didn't mean fat person.. it meant male who exhibited traditional "male" characteristics, including those things which are genetic (body hair, beard, etc) and those things which are cultural (blue collar, etc).

The whole "extra body weight" thing came along about 7-10 years later and kind of took over as a new wave of men who realized they wanted to have sex with men found themselves standing on the outside of the norma gay marketing image of being young and blonde and hairless and kind of stupid and femme and into interior decorating and hair design.

Now it's pretty entrenched that "bear" means a man who is hairy, has facial hair of some sort, carries a few extra pounds, and may or may not spew chiffon from his mouth when he speaks.

I mourn for those early days of bear identity. It was discovering that concept, way back when, which gave me permission to come out after over 20 years of believing that "homosexual" was another phrase for "wants to be a woman, or at least dress like one". Without having discovered the bears all those years ago, I'd probably have continued in my repressed presbyterian upbringing, married some female, had children with her, and just about now would be lurking in the back alleys of the internet furtively seeking body contact with other men who are equally full of denial and self-loathing.
posted by hippybear at 6:52 PM on November 5, 2011 [15 favorites]

Furry self - so, what's his login on FurryMuck? (Holy crap, it predates than the World Wide Web! Kink is eternal.)
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:34 PM on November 5, 2011

If Seth Rogan is a furry...

Hrm.. I have no adequate ending for that sentence.

(One of the main reasons why I quit hanging out with furries is because I like a man who is furry but don't give a shit about Furries.)
posted by hippybear at 7:40 PM on November 5, 2011

i don't know how i feel about bears because of the whole 'fat' thing and the effects of that on health

feel free to correct my ignorance
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 8:30 PM on November 5, 2011

"Husky", few extra pounds does not equal fat enough to be a health risk.

Although I agree with John Waters on how the term has become meaningless, "Bear? Isn;t that just being middle aged?"
posted by The Whelk at 8:34 PM on November 5, 2011

I understand it to mean "has significant facial hair and can smile unironically".
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:45 PM on November 5, 2011 [2 favorites]

i don't know how i feel about bears because of the whole 'fat' thing and the effects of that on health

What do fat bears have to do with your health?
posted by pajamazon at 8:45 PM on November 5, 2011 [6 favorites]

Although I agree with John Waters on how the term has become meaningless

I do agree that the term has lost a lot of its original meaning. When it started out, it was very much a political movement within the gay community of men who didn't fit the twink/clone image rebelling and saying that there was something intrinsically attractive about men who are just casually men in more classic, less marketing-gay-image kind of way.

Over time, it moved from being a movement to being a marketing niche. At that point, "bear" turned into a parallel of the girth-and-mirth crowd, with an emphasis on extra weight, and with a lot of t-shirts, caps, pins, license plate frames, stickers, and anything else you can imagine being created for the target market to purchase at any number of heavily promoted fly-in fuck parties bear weekends which took place all over the country.

Nowadays, the gym crowd from the 1990s has gotten older and is sprouting body hair in places which they find awkward to shave, and suddenly the "muscle bear" has taken over the scene. It's kind of sad to see what was once a movement based on guys who just wanted to be with other guys being co-opted by the same kind of standards of beauty which those guys were seeking to get away from in the first place, but that's what is happening right now.

We're overdue for another movement to spring up in its place. Yet again, an outlet for gay men who aren't into all the hype and image and such associated with mainstream gay society, and equally aren't into the gym culture and body-hair-white-party mentality of today's bear scene. Just a bunch of guys who like guys, who want to hang out and shoot a little pool and watch some sports on the television and listen to rock and roll and have a good time being with the guys.

That's what it was way back when, that's what it isn't now. I'd love to see something appear today, because that's pretty much what I am and what I'm looking for -- guys who like guys who are guys and aren't into all that other stuff.
posted by hippybear at 8:45 PM on November 5, 2011 [5 favorites]

I understand it to mean "has significant facial hair and can smile unironically".

Yeah, for me personally, it's the beard which turns my head every time. No facial hair? Not really even a second glance. A good beard? I'll strain various body parts to get a fifth and sixth look and try to commit you to memory. :)
posted by hippybear at 8:47 PM on November 5, 2011

If you like mushrooms and political theory, that's the Radical Faeries for you, and that strange online area of stuff like Gay Interest, CNTRL+W33D , Bears I'm Disappointed In and such, which is this strange tumblr-filled tide pool of hairy guys, disco and 70s-era drag queens. PINUPS is also there but less, BUTT *used* to be there now? Who knows. If I had to call the group anything, I'd call them the Art Fags. It's all Flannel and cocks and glitter.
posted by The Whelk at 8:49 PM on November 5, 2011 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I'm associated with the Faeries, too. The fey rural faggots. I love them. They feed my hippie soul. And having Harry Hay as one of their patron saints, they're well founded. RFD is a publication which has illuminated my life for nearly a couple of decades now. I keep meaning to get over to to Wolf Creek, but it's just far enough away, and when I have the time I don't have the money, and when I have the money, I'm working and don't have the time.

Short Mountain remains a Mecca for me. I'll get there someday, too.
posted by hippybear at 8:54 PM on November 5, 2011

pretty much the only thing they agree on is that they all like Max Blum "You hit him, you're big and black." "yeah but you're gay and chubby no one will see it coming."
posted by The Whelk at 8:54 PM on November 5, 2011

I know Pinups is by men for men but let's just all know that I bookmarked it after looking through the entire website. I'll be in my bunk.
posted by Foam Pants at 9:00 PM on November 5, 2011 [6 favorites]

YES LET THE CORRUPTION FLOW THROUGH YOU
posted by The Whelk at 9:04 PM on November 5, 2011 [1 favorite]

Foam Pants? More like Foaming Panties! Amirite?
posted by hippybear at 9:23 PM on November 5, 2011 [1 favorite]

I fucking hate and have always hated the blue-collar fetishism of much of the gay scene and in particular that of the bear- ahem- "COMMUNITY."

I grew up blue-collar, completely Lumpenproletariat assembly line blue collar, and then and now find the best examples of "bears" to be college professors and find intelligent, erudite and yes educated men to be the cat's pyjamas. If a blue-collar guy is hot, great, get in line, but this idea that blue collar is somehow ipso facto sexy is classist bullshit. It absolutely creeps the fuck out of me.

Also- do bears really fucking believe that actual NYPD and FDNY men wear jockstraps with their employers' names on them? I see that and my dick turns to confiture.

Finally, plaid shirts with the sleeves cut off, daisy dukes and construction boots on a slack, out of shape fatass do NOT look good.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 10:10 PM on November 5, 2011 [1 favorite]

Um... are you confusing fantasy porn shoots with reality? Because that's pretty much a swift slide to insanity regardless of one's orientation.
posted by hippybear at 10:17 PM on November 5, 2011 [6 favorites]

Anyway, I have a blue collar job and see blue collar men all the time. I know they're not ipso facto sexy. But the ones that turn my head really turn my head. A lot more than the same guy wearing different gear.

Anyway, one person's sexual interests aren't another. If you haven't learned that by now after your years on MetaFilter, then you haven't been paying attention.

Sexual interest is simply what makes someone go "ping". And, in my experience, a person has as much ability to control that as they do to control the weather. The best thing for any individual to do is to recognize what turns them on, not feel ashamed or influenced by the dominant paradigm as to what is "attractive", and seek to explore their own interests to their fullest extent.

That you feel so strongly against the blue collar interest and hold much more interest in the college professor bear type simply means that your own interests are in a different arena. Is that a bad thing? No. Does that make others who hold other interests bad people? No.

Although based on your comment it makes them worthy of your contempt. Which, frankly, is something I think you ought to work on, because it makes you look ugly and intolerant.
posted by hippybear at 10:23 PM on November 5, 2011 [4 favorites]

"We're overdue for another movement to spring up in its place."

It's my hope that we're basically past those and starting to move into the area where a body can just be what they want to be. I'm bearish in that I have significant body hair (although I prefer to be clean-shaven, sorry) and some traditionally masculine hobbies, but I don't really think of myself as A Bear.

I'm just the person I am.

That said, I was surprised at my reaction to those drawings. Seth Rogen's movies are... not movies for me and my brain just never considered him in a sexual light - it turns out it's a good light for him to be in. It's saddening that they weren't drawn from life, though.

ethnoetc, you seem like. Pretty angry about stuff? I guess? Kind of weird.
posted by kavasa at 12:11 AM on November 6, 2011 [1 favorite]

jonmc, we're gonna need pics.
posted by mek at 12:20 AM on November 6, 2011

(I'm very staright, but I dig the idea of being an icon. or something.)

jonmc, I find it interesting that you were unable to communicate that simple phrase without screwing it up... pardon me, mistyping it.

(Takes out notebook and pencil; eases back in chair beneath shelf loaded with books about Freudian theory...)

Tell me about your vadder... Was he close?
posted by IAmBroom at 1:02 AM on November 6, 2011 [2 favorites]

his idea that blue collar is somehow ipso facto sexy is classist bullshit. It absolutely creeps the fuck out of me.

i can kind of empathize with that. it feels exploitative and a little de-agentising
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 1:16 AM on November 6, 2011

Why are so many gay icons straight? Good on Seth for being a good sport and all, but I wish we weren't so self loathing as to fwap away at the unattainable straight man.
posted by munchingzombie at 1:16 AM on November 6, 2011 [1 favorite]

Would it matter if Rogen was gay? He'd still be a Hollywood star not very likely to be interested in any of his fans. Everybody, gay, straight or otherwise spends most of their time fantasising, doing so about people they're never going to get to fuck.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:44 AM on November 6, 2011

Can't we all agree that Seth Rogen is damned funny but also damned unattractive.

Next we'll be talking about how Ann Coulter is sexier than bony.
posted by hal_c_on at 2:03 AM on November 6, 2011

Yeah, for me personally, it's the beard which turns my head every time. No facial hair? Not really even a second glance. A good beard? I'll strain various body parts to get a fifth and sixth look and try to commit you to memory. :)

ahem
posted by Ritchie at 2:14 AM on November 6, 2011 [1 favorite]

So what are the otterkin? Or have I got that wrong?
posted by Devonian at 2:31 AM on November 6, 2011

(I'm very staright, but I dig the idea of being an icon. or something.)

jonmc, I find it interesting that you were unable to communicate that simple phrase without screwing it up... pardon me, mistyping it.

Look, when the stars are staright, the massive basalt pillars of the Great Bold oBnes will rise and... well, the resulting scene will be, as they say, not convenient to describe....
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:23 AM on November 6, 2011 [2 favorites]

Can't we all agree that Seth Rogen is damned funny but also damned unattractive.

looks like nope
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 3:45 AM on November 6, 2011 [9 favorites]

There are bears and then there are fetish objects. The former are often charming and delightful. Amongst the latter, that is rare. The one going "Look at me! Look at me!" is not the droid you're looking for.
posted by Goofyy at 5:12 AM on November 6, 2011 [1 favorite]

Why are so many gay icons straight? Good on Seth for being a good sport and all, but I wish we weren't so self loathing as to fwap away at the unattainable straight man.
posted by munchingzombie at 10:16 AM on November 6 [+] [!]

It's not like we straight men don't fwap to lesbians.
posted by CautionToTheWind at 5:30 AM on November 6, 2011 [3 favorites]

I wish we weren't so self loathing as to fwap away at the unattainable straight man.

I think anyone who is in the public eye such as a movie star ends up being the object of projection in any number of ways. I doubt anyone who uses Rogan as a masturbation fantasy ever really truly thinks they are going to have sex with him. Richard Karn (Al from Home Improvement) was another similar bear fantasy icon. Finding people attractive when they're public figures has nothing to do with them being attainable, or even about their sexuality. It's simply how they look and how they come across in their films or television shows.

Do you interview each and every person you fantasize about to make sure they'd be amenable to you before you let your mind wander in their direction? Like, even the people you see on the street and public transit and have little fleeting ideas run through your head? I doubt it.
posted by hippybear at 6:20 AM on November 6, 2011

Richard Karn (Al from Home Improvement) was another similar bear fantasy icon.

I know a guy who had a major thing for Billy Mays, the Oxi-Clean guy, another for Scott Bakula. I'll admit to having a thing for Carole Kane. People are weird.
posted by jonmc at 6:32 AM on November 6, 2011

Metafilter: It's all Flannel and cocks and glitter.
posted by piratebowling at 8:25 AM on November 6, 2011 [5 favorites]

It's kind of sad to see what was once a movement based on guys who just wanted to be with other guys being co-opted by the same kind of standards of beauty which those guys were seeking to get away from in the first place, but that's what is happening right now.

i've always been into bears, though i've never seen it as a movement as much as an attitude. i have a wide range of what i appreciate in men (my husband always throws this out as 'he doesn't like pretty guys, only weird-looking guys.' ah marriage). i'd take paul krugman over tom cruise. and i'm not big on arguing definitions and categorizations; if a 19-year-old hairless twink wants to woof at me, he's part of my community.

we're lucky to have a pretty mess of bear friends in san francisco, and some of them (as do we) float in and out of 'official' bear events and associations, but we don't really know a lot of people in the bear 'circuit', which seems to be more what you are describing. but versions of that circuit exist in the broader gay community, and we don't necessarily define the whole by them. in beardom, i've always seen the hub of that circuit being the kind of incestuous association of promoters, DJs, publishers, and models/wannabes--a kind of mini celeb culture--and some guys for a time might fall into following that, but they don't seem to mix in the same way; most guys i know can smell the PR on them and wouldn't really invite them to the private bacon cook-off underwear movie and game night, and that's where the real fun is.

as with any subset of attraction or preference, tastes do tend to converge on a set of standard types; maybe i'm just lucky that the bears i know don't take them that seriously.
posted by fallacy of the beard at 9:27 AM on November 6, 2011

i'd take paul krugman over tom cruise.

I still think that Ben Bernanke would look awesome in full dress Daddy leathers.

Anyway, the bear community in SF is different from in most other places. I spent quite a bit of time in SF hanging with the Bears and Urban Faeries a while back, and there's a congeniality and acceptance there which doesn't exist everywhere. That's probably because of SF being generally a very different place from most all around. Head up to Seattle, and you'll find Attitude Bears all over the place, in my experience anyway.
posted by hippybear at 9:48 AM on November 6, 2011

aww, and i'd been looking forward to meeting more seattle bears...though i hear portland is pretty sweet territory as well. glad to hear we're living in the right place, in any case.

for a while i've been very curious about the radical faeries. i don't relate so much to the spiritual element, and i can be on the quieter, shy side, but there's a playfulness and courage there i find very attractive.
posted by fallacy of the beard at 10:15 AM on November 6, 2011

for a while i've been very curious about the radical faeries.

If you're curious about them, then the best thing you can do is locate a faerie sanctuary near you and visit them, probably during one of their big events is best. Or hit the annual Rainbow Family national gathering in July each year and camp at Faerie Camp.

Or, if you don't mind spending a few bucks, subscribe to RFD Magazine, which comes out 4x a year and will give you a lot more information about their approach to life and very practical things about living. It's kind of geared toward rural living, but there's plenty in each issue to chew on, about all kinds of topics.
posted by hippybear at 10:47 AM on November 6, 2011

i don't know how i feel about bears because of the whole 'fat' thing and the effects of that on health

Use more lube and a king sized condom and you'll be fine.
posted by Jilder at 11:39 AM on November 6, 2011

It seems like the whole "bear" thing is at a funny point right now. On the one hand, any hairy stocky queer dude counts as a bear pretty much automatically. On the other hand, the word is still used to describe a subculture and the scene that's grown up around it, and I think people sorta forget that the body type and the subculture aren't coextensive.

So like my ex — who is pretty much the Platonic Ideal of Bearhood in terms of physical appearance, but who hates faux-blue-collar culture and is way more interested in like art and fashion — has a hell of a time meeting people who share his interests. I'm not even talking about dating necessarily, but just making gay friends. A lot of guys he'd really enjoy talking to will take one look at him and go "Oh, he must just think about motorcycles and beer all the time."

I guess it's no worse than being a nerdy black guy from the suburbs, or an Asian anarchist punk, or a straight guy who's into ballet, or having any other sort of genetic/cultural "mismatch." Still a weird situation, though.
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:57 PM on November 6, 2011

I think the current crop of the internet gay subcultures I talked about above address that phenotype mismatch directly, they all look like lumberjacks but they all want to talk about drag queens and 70s-era gallery art.
posted by The Whelk at 12:59 PM on November 6, 2011 [1 favorite]

Yes that sounds lovely. I'm not familiar with the names of the online groups so that comment read pretty much like word salad the first time around. Hooray for context!
posted by nebulawindphone at 1:08 PM on November 6, 2011

I'll admit to having a thing for Carole Kane.

You mean, of course, to Simka Gravas. Ohhhhh, Simka, talk to me in that indefinable middle-european accent.

People are weird.

Yes, yes we are.

/sorry for the heterosexual derail.
posted by benito.strauss at 2:01 PM on November 6, 2011 [2 favorites]

can faeries teach magic and do the radical kind teach magic that is more rad
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 3:18 PM on November 6, 2011 [1 favorite]

can faeries teach magic and do the radical kind teach magic that is more rad

Yes, and yes.
posted by hippybear at 3:28 PM on November 6, 2011 [1 favorite]

(this is when I go though my mental Rolodex and realize I know so many people who are just straight up wizards)
posted by The Whelk at 3:30 PM on November 6, 2011

Um... are you confusing fantasy porn shoots with reality? Because that's pretty much a swift slide to insanity regardless of one's orientation.

Um... do you ever pay attention to the profiles on BMB or any of the scads of other bear personals sites (bearwww, bear411, eurobear, etc etc) and note how many of these guys- not fantasy porn shoots but real person profiles- are dressed up like cast members in Deliverance: The Musical, or wearing those FUCKING STUPID NYPD jockstraps?

And yeah I can afford to have "contempt" for an industry and a "community" that's made every man I would otherwise consider wank-worthy into a physically revolting stereotype with his obligatory dress-up and even worse his piercings and tattoos. GAG.

Ben Bernanke looks amazing in a suit- does every "bear" have to be in your ridiculous get-up to be sexy?
posted by ethnomethodologist at 8:59 AM on November 7, 2011

No, I have a wide range of ways I like men to look and dress and find them interesting.

None of them happen to be a suit however. Talk about a ridiculous get-up! I can't look at a man in one without re-seeing all the people commuting to business in Koyannisqatsi in their suits and ties intercut with images of hot dogs and lobsters.

One man's outfit is another man's ridiculous get-up. If you can't see that, then there's nothing more really to say.
posted by hippybear at 1:27 PM on November 7, 2011 [2 favorites]

Hey! Some of us like our men intercut with images of hot dogs and lobsters!
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:02 PM on November 7, 2011

I mean, someone must be into that, right?
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:02 PM on November 7, 2011