My name is Katniss Everdeen
November 22, 2013 4:28 AM Subscribe
A Textual Analysis of The Hunger Games (and Twilight, and Harry Potter)
The "Most Common Sentences By Each Author" table is brilliant. Each column reads as a bit of open verse which does a very good job of encapsulating what appears to be the overall feel of each author.
I'm not really surprised.
Something is wrong.
posted by jammer at 5:15 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm not really surprised.
Something is wrong.
posted by jammer at 5:15 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Brilliant. The entire column of Most Common Sentences in Twilight reads like a romance.
posted by bouvin at 5:33 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by bouvin at 5:33 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
I wasn't impressed with the first film adaptation
I would suggest giving it ago. The director for this one clearly has a better grasp of the material and the kind of movie it intends to be, and a better executed worldbuilding.
posted by cendawanita at 5:35 AM on November 22, 2013
I would suggest giving it ago. The director for this one clearly has a better grasp of the material and the kind of movie it intends to be, and a better executed worldbuilding.
posted by cendawanita at 5:35 AM on November 22, 2013
Twilight is wrapped up in emotion (thus “anxiously,” “unwilling,” and “unreadable”—the last is typically used to describe a character’s expression).Subtle, Slate. Subtle.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 5:38 AM on November 22, 2013 [10 favorites]
Is the frequent use of the word "unreadable" by Stephenie Meyer like a subconscious cry for help?
posted by wabbittwax at 6:10 AM on November 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 6:10 AM on November 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
Twilight is a thinly veiled S&M-tinged romance. Or not so thinly veiled, as one might realize from the fact that Fifty Shades of Unbelievably Badly Written started as Twilight fanfic. Turn the vampire into a billionaire and it's just a bodice ripper.
Hunger Games and Harry Potter are both standard stories set in alternate worlds to keep us on our toes, Hunger Games not only being in the future but having oddly different technology and natural history, and Potter of course because magic is a real thing.
But otherwise, Hunger Games is a straightforward action-adventure story of an ordinary person thrust into an extraordinary situation and forced to cope to survive, and Potter is a straightforward Mary Sue with a Destiny coming of age cycle.
So really, the only thing these three series have in common is that they all doll up a familiar trope with a fantasy element not normally seen in that genre.
posted by localroger at 6:12 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Hunger Games and Harry Potter are both standard stories set in alternate worlds to keep us on our toes, Hunger Games not only being in the future but having oddly different technology and natural history, and Potter of course because magic is a real thing.
But otherwise, Hunger Games is a straightforward action-adventure story of an ordinary person thrust into an extraordinary situation and forced to cope to survive, and Potter is a straightforward Mary Sue with a Destiny coming of age cycle.
So really, the only thing these three series have in common is that they all doll up a familiar trope with a fantasy element not normally seen in that genre.
posted by localroger at 6:12 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
I know you're simplifying here, but I'm not sure how Harry ends up the Mary Sue, especially in this crowd.
There are no new stories. Everything will have some familiar element in it. I won't argue that Twilight->50Shades isn't Intro To Romance Novels 101 and 102, but HP and Games both have extensive world building which is as much a part of their appeal as the stories themselves. Twilight gets lumped into these discussions because it was wildly popular, but it only really belongs there as an intro to genre.
posted by maryr at 6:41 AM on November 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
There are no new stories. Everything will have some familiar element in it. I won't argue that Twilight->50Shades isn't Intro To Romance Novels 101 and 102, but HP and Games both have extensive world building which is as much a part of their appeal as the stories themselves. Twilight gets lumped into these discussions because it was wildly popular, but it only really belongs there as an intro to genre.
posted by maryr at 6:41 AM on November 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
I mean, Hogwarts belongs up there with Narnia and Wonderland.
posted by maryr at 6:44 AM on November 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by maryr at 6:44 AM on November 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
You're not wrong, localroger, but isn't that a bit like saying The Sopranos was just dolling up the trope of a mob family's story with a more contemporary setting or Shakespeare was just dolling up the old star crossed lovers trope in Romeo and Juliet?
I'm not saying Potter or Hunger Games are on the level of Shakespeare but isn't there something to be said for how well a story is told, even if the basic outline of the plot isn't all that new? I was reluctantly convinced to read the Hunger Games and [mild spoilers to follow] was pleasantly surprised to see how nuanced the depiction of revolution against the state was portrayed. It absolutely subverts the usual "oh we killed the bad leader and now everything is great" trope.
posted by Wretch729 at 6:44 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm not saying Potter or Hunger Games are on the level of Shakespeare but isn't there something to be said for how well a story is told, even if the basic outline of the plot isn't all that new? I was reluctantly convinced to read the Hunger Games and [mild spoilers to follow] was pleasantly surprised to see how nuanced the depiction of revolution against the state was portrayed. It absolutely subverts the usual "oh we killed the bad leader and now everything is great" trope.
posted by Wretch729 at 6:44 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
For clarity, I'm referring to the arc of all 3 Hunger Games books above, The first book is a bit more formulaic.
posted by Wretch729 at 6:52 AM on November 22, 2013
posted by Wretch729 at 6:52 AM on November 22, 2013
I snorted out loud at work when I read the Twilight common sentences.
posted by Ned G at 7:27 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Ned G at 7:27 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
Actually The Sopranos was the mob family story dolled by populating it with people who would still be real characters with interesting flaws even if they weren't mobsters. That was a new combination, in which sense it's an apt comparison to these three book series.
There are definitely points for craft, and in particular Potter scores high for style and holding kids' attention at such length. But of course Harry is Mary Sue, for most readers if not Rowling herself. Tony Soprano is an excellent contrast to this.
posted by localroger at 7:28 AM on November 22, 2013
There are definitely points for craft, and in particular Potter scores high for style and holding kids' attention at such length. But of course Harry is Mary Sue, for most readers if not Rowling herself. Tony Soprano is an excellent contrast to this.
posted by localroger at 7:28 AM on November 22, 2013
Because she is FSCKING AWESOME.
posted by maryr at 7:48 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by maryr at 7:48 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
that's cannon, maryr
posted by rebent at 8:05 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by rebent at 8:05 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
and I must say, this post really is brilliant. I'd love to see more of the data, get a bigger picture , and be able to draw my own conclusions. I've been doing some textual analysis myself lately, of survey results, so it's nice to see it used in a more interesting setting.
posted by rebent at 8:08 AM on November 22, 2013
posted by rebent at 8:08 AM on November 22, 2013
Though both series are set in fantasy worlds
I don't think of Hunger Games as fantasy, since there is nothing paranormal. There are some weird things that happen from genetic engineering, but no magic. To me, it is dystopian scifi.
posted by soelo at 8:11 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't think of Hunger Games as fantasy, since there is nothing paranormal. There are some weird things that happen from genetic engineering, but no magic. To me, it is dystopian scifi.
posted by soelo at 8:11 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
In that case, it's not SciFi because it doesn't have spaceships and blasters and crap. Name it "speculative fiction" and call it a day.
posted by happyroach at 8:19 AM on November 22, 2013
posted by happyroach at 8:19 AM on November 22, 2013
localroger-
I'm trying to decide if I agree with you or not. This comment was originally even longer but I cut out some of my rambling.
Tony Soprano - Why is he interesting if you take away the mob thing? Isn't he just a suburban NJ dad with a circle of drinking buddies, a short temper, and some daddy issues? Not that that couldn't make for an interesting story but I think it would be so different from the Sopranos as to be unrecognizable?
Or maybe to put it differently, why wouldn't Potter or Everdeen be just as potentially interesting? I don't think their characterization is that flat. I'm not sure that's so different from saying the life of Harry Potter could be interesting if it was about him growing up in an abusive home without magical powers, or that Katniss might be interesting if it was a story about her struggling to provide for her family as she grows up in an impoverished mining town.
Harry Potter - Harry is certainly Mary Sue-ish and (I have a crazy past and was bullied but now I have secret powers and I'm amazingly good at my sport and amazing things keep happening to me) but I don't quite think that's fair and here's why. Sure Harry is implausibly good at Quidditch (a sport that only makes sense as a tool for highlighting the seeker's performance anyway) but that's about it. He is a middling student, he isn't described as being especially physically attractive beyond the norm. He grows and changes over the course of the series, and has character flaws (impulsive, reckless, anger issues). Rather than go on at any further length I'll just reference Navelgazer's long post from long comment a couple years back about how the Potter books are best understood as a bildungsroman rather than fantasy or adventure stories. (PS off topic but maryr if you missed the piece about Hermione linked in the FPP navelgazer was commenting on you might enjoy it.)
posted by Wretch729 at 8:23 AM on November 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'm trying to decide if I agree with you or not. This comment was originally even longer but I cut out some of my rambling.
Tony Soprano - Why is he interesting if you take away the mob thing? Isn't he just a suburban NJ dad with a circle of drinking buddies, a short temper, and some daddy issues? Not that that couldn't make for an interesting story but I think it would be so different from the Sopranos as to be unrecognizable?
Or maybe to put it differently, why wouldn't Potter or Everdeen be just as potentially interesting? I don't think their characterization is that flat. I'm not sure that's so different from saying the life of Harry Potter could be interesting if it was about him growing up in an abusive home without magical powers, or that Katniss might be interesting if it was a story about her struggling to provide for her family as she grows up in an impoverished mining town.
Harry Potter - Harry is certainly Mary Sue-ish and (I have a crazy past and was bullied but now I have secret powers and I'm amazingly good at my sport and amazing things keep happening to me) but I don't quite think that's fair and here's why. Sure Harry is implausibly good at Quidditch (a sport that only makes sense as a tool for highlighting the seeker's performance anyway) but that's about it. He is a middling student, he isn't described as being especially physically attractive beyond the norm. He grows and changes over the course of the series, and has character flaws (impulsive, reckless, anger issues). Rather than go on at any further length I'll just reference Navelgazer's long post from long comment a couple years back about how the Potter books are best understood as a bildungsroman rather than fantasy or adventure stories. (PS off topic but maryr if you missed the piece about Hermione linked in the FPP navelgazer was commenting on you might enjoy it.)
posted by Wretch729 at 8:23 AM on November 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
I wonder if there's a Potter fanfic out there that keeps everything the same as canon except Voldemort was completely destroyed when Harry was a baby, there were no horcruxes, and Harry has no primary antagonist. I guess they'd have to invent one.
posted by Wretch729 at 8:26 AM on November 22, 2013
posted by Wretch729 at 8:26 AM on November 22, 2013
The Hunger Games is about 1 and 3/4ths a terrific series, and then the end of the second book and the third book are unpleasant and sloggy as hell. Depending on your capacity for slog, that makes Mockingjay either brilliant or terrible or somewhere in between; I regret to say that for me it was not at all a success. Katniss was too flat a character for me to feel for her tragedies whatsoever.
posted by Rory Marinich at 8:28 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Rory Marinich at 8:28 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Rory Marinich: "Katniss was too flat a character for me to feel for her tragedies whatsoever."
Quoted For Truth. The only compelling characters in the series are Haymitch (far and away the most compelling, interesting, and overall wasted* character) and President Snow (whose end is anticlimactic in the extreme.) Katniss is a whiny, vacillating ineffectual. Peeta is the nice-guy doormat. Gabe's only reason for existing was to create the "will-they-or-won't-they" romantic drama. I would have loved to see more worldbuilding and less whiny Katniss.
* pun fully intended
posted by namewithoutwords at 8:55 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
Quoted For Truth. The only compelling characters in the series are Haymitch (far and away the most compelling, interesting, and overall wasted
* pun fully intended
posted by namewithoutwords at 8:55 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
Katniss is a whiny, vacillating ineffectual
I can't believe you guys are serious. I find her extremely compelling for just this reason. Shit around her is crazy, and everyone is all you're-either-wish-us-or-against-us, and she doesn't know who to trust. I think that is a really understandable and realistic reaction to her circumstances. Her character also offers a really interesting perspective on revolution as a concept, and the interplay between her (exceedingly practical, driven by concern for her people) reaction and Gale's (theoretical, activisty revolutionary) and Peeta's (accomodating) reactions reads to me as both insightful character development and social commentary.
posted by likeatoaster at 9:14 AM on November 22, 2013 [10 favorites]
I can't believe you guys are serious. I find her extremely compelling for just this reason. Shit around her is crazy, and everyone is all you're-either-wish-us-or-against-us, and she doesn't know who to trust. I think that is a really understandable and realistic reaction to her circumstances. Her character also offers a really interesting perspective on revolution as a concept, and the interplay between her (exceedingly practical, driven by concern for her people) reaction and Gale's (theoretical, activisty revolutionary) and Peeta's (accomodating) reactions reads to me as both insightful character development and social commentary.
posted by likeatoaster at 9:14 AM on November 22, 2013 [10 favorites]
"Katniss was too flat a character for me to feel for her tragedies whatsoever."
A lot of people with PTSD or the like lose friends for that reason, yeah. I'd agree that most of the third book is nigh-on unreadable, but not for any technical reason. I haven't made up my mind yet as to whether the payoff at the end redeems it into brilliant territory. I guess I'm just trying to say that your experience of Mockingjay might vary a lot depending on where you're coming from.
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:17 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
A lot of people with PTSD or the like lose friends for that reason, yeah. I'd agree that most of the third book is nigh-on unreadable, but not for any technical reason. I haven't made up my mind yet as to whether the payoff at the end redeems it into brilliant territory. I guess I'm just trying to say that your experience of Mockingjay might vary a lot depending on where you're coming from.
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:17 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
I thought that the writing of Katniss's PTSD was both exceptionally well-written and very courageous from an authorial point of view. It's very uncomfortable to be in her head after that happens, and it would have been very easy to write her as taking the bull by the horns and revolutionizing both 13 and Panem with her charisma, uniqueness, nerve, and talent -- but that would not only be unrealistic, it would badly undercut Collins' overall message. I agree that Mockingjay didn't pay off in the same way that the other two books did, but I thought it was quite successful nonetheless.
posted by KathrynT at 9:24 AM on November 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 9:24 AM on November 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
I'd agree that most of the third book is nigh-on unreadable, but not for any technical reason.
Yeah, as much as I disliked the third book, I'm always ready and willing to jump in and defend Katniss. She's less "whiny and ineffectual" and more completely traumatized and suffering from PTSD and depression. It's incredibly frustrating that the third book is from her point of view, because she does come across as rather flat, apathetic, and overwhelmed. It's just that she has every right to be, and I actually applaud Collins for having her heroine deal with the real consequences of the terrible things that have happened to her. I still wish Mockingjay was written in third person omniscient, because being mired in Katniss's perspective did that book no favors, but Katniss herself is not the book's weak point. Everything about the way she acts in that book is entirely realistic and understandable to me.
posted by yasaman at 9:26 AM on November 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
Yeah, as much as I disliked the third book, I'm always ready and willing to jump in and defend Katniss. She's less "whiny and ineffectual" and more completely traumatized and suffering from PTSD and depression. It's incredibly frustrating that the third book is from her point of view, because she does come across as rather flat, apathetic, and overwhelmed. It's just that she has every right to be, and I actually applaud Collins for having her heroine deal with the real consequences of the terrible things that have happened to her. I still wish Mockingjay was written in third person omniscient, because being mired in Katniss's perspective did that book no favors, but Katniss herself is not the book's weak point. Everything about the way she acts in that book is entirely realistic and understandable to me.
posted by yasaman at 9:26 AM on November 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
Re: Katniss' character isn't that a matter of taste? [spoilers follow]
Within the limitations of the writing and the YA genre I thought she was pretty compelling as a personification of James C Scott-style resistance to state power. I didn't find her whiny, her life just sucks and she's a teenager who feels like impossible unfair burdens are being placed on her. Her dad died, her mom is mostly mentally AWOL, she volunteers for almost certain death to save her sister (who eventually DIES, arguably in part due to Katniss' decisions, making her question whether it was ever worth it), she's later manipulated (and is aware of being so manipulated) as a political pawn by both sides of a civil war all while suffering from what is probably PTSD yet she still manages to retain some agency, and in her critical scene uses an act of violence (killing Coin) as supremely effective political action with important consequences for her society. That's some serious shit. I thought she was pretty resilient as her life is reduced to ruins around her, and the biggest lesson for me from the trilogy was not the evil of fascist government cannibalizing its own children as a tool for social control but the lesson about the perhaps necessary but unavoidable human cost of revolution and war. Mockingjay is essential for this all to play out. If I had to pair another work thematically with Hunger Games I'd think of Das Boot.
I don't think flat has to mean the same thing as not personally compelling to you as reader. I can't stand Harry Potter from about book 5 on because of his descent into angry|angsty|Harry but I don't think that's flat characterization, his behavior totally makes sense given what has happened to him. I just wish he had made different choices, but not because his canon choices broke character. So we can disagree about whether we like a character or agree with their choices but I don't think there's a very compelling case that Katniss' characterization isn't deep enough.
posted by Wretch729 at 9:30 AM on November 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
Within the limitations of the writing and the YA genre I thought she was pretty compelling as a personification of James C Scott-style resistance to state power. I didn't find her whiny, her life just sucks and she's a teenager who feels like impossible unfair burdens are being placed on her. Her dad died, her mom is mostly mentally AWOL, she volunteers for almost certain death to save her sister (who eventually DIES, arguably in part due to Katniss' decisions, making her question whether it was ever worth it), she's later manipulated (and is aware of being so manipulated) as a political pawn by both sides of a civil war all while suffering from what is probably PTSD yet she still manages to retain some agency, and in her critical scene uses an act of violence (killing Coin) as supremely effective political action with important consequences for her society. That's some serious shit. I thought she was pretty resilient as her life is reduced to ruins around her, and the biggest lesson for me from the trilogy was not the evil of fascist government cannibalizing its own children as a tool for social control but the lesson about the perhaps necessary but unavoidable human cost of revolution and war. Mockingjay is essential for this all to play out. If I had to pair another work thematically with Hunger Games I'd think of Das Boot.
I don't think flat has to mean the same thing as not personally compelling to you as reader. I can't stand Harry Potter from about book 5 on because of his descent into angry|angsty|Harry but I don't think that's flat characterization, his behavior totally makes sense given what has happened to him. I just wish he had made different choices, but not because his canon choices broke character. So we can disagree about whether we like a character or agree with their choices but I don't think there's a very compelling case that Katniss' characterization isn't deep enough.
posted by Wretch729 at 9:30 AM on November 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
Thanks to those who came and put into grownup words what I was not equipped to say.
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:34 AM on November 22, 2013
posted by tigrrrlily at 9:34 AM on November 22, 2013
Tony Soprano - Why is he interesting if you take away the mob thing? Isn't he just a suburban NJ dad with a circle of drinking buddies, a short temper, and some daddy issues? Not that that couldn't make for an interesting story but I think it would be so different from the Sopranos as to be unrecognizable?
Well, if Tony wasn't a mobster and we were watching a TV series about him he would undoubtably have some other interesting high-stress job that drove him to therapy, even though that job is normally associated with secrets and strength such that the therapy angle is a bit surprising. He could be a cop or a fireman or an FBI investigator or a politician. But he would still have the circle of drinking buddies, the temper, and the daddy issues; the thing about Tony is that he is a real person who doesn't owe everything about himself to the fact that he's a mobster, like Michael Corleone. He's a believably ordinary guy who just happens to be a mobster. He is remarkable because other than the mobster thing, he's just like many of us, and he relates to being a mobster much the way most of us relate to our more normal jobs.
Or maybe to put it differently, why wouldn't Potter or Everdeen be just as potentially interesting?
If Potter wasn't the One Who Lived, what would he be other than just another school kid? If you took that way what could you replace it with that would leave him the same sort of person but make his story worth reading? Unlike Tony, who would be Tony even if he was a computer salesman (as he even saw himself in the visions after he got shot), Harry wouldn't be recognizable as a character without his destiny and abilities.
And similarly, except for the fact that she's an expert archer nearly everything worth saying about Katniss Everdeen is a result of her extraordinary situation and experiences. If you plonked her pre-Games self into our universe she would be so perfectly ordinary that she'd be unrecognizable as the same character.
posted by localroger at 9:36 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Well, if Tony wasn't a mobster and we were watching a TV series about him he would undoubtably have some other interesting high-stress job that drove him to therapy, even though that job is normally associated with secrets and strength such that the therapy angle is a bit surprising. He could be a cop or a fireman or an FBI investigator or a politician. But he would still have the circle of drinking buddies, the temper, and the daddy issues; the thing about Tony is that he is a real person who doesn't owe everything about himself to the fact that he's a mobster, like Michael Corleone. He's a believably ordinary guy who just happens to be a mobster. He is remarkable because other than the mobster thing, he's just like many of us, and he relates to being a mobster much the way most of us relate to our more normal jobs.
Or maybe to put it differently, why wouldn't Potter or Everdeen be just as potentially interesting?
If Potter wasn't the One Who Lived, what would he be other than just another school kid? If you took that way what could you replace it with that would leave him the same sort of person but make his story worth reading? Unlike Tony, who would be Tony even if he was a computer salesman (as he even saw himself in the visions after he got shot), Harry wouldn't be recognizable as a character without his destiny and abilities.
And similarly, except for the fact that she's an expert archer nearly everything worth saying about Katniss Everdeen is a result of her extraordinary situation and experiences. If you plonked her pre-Games self into our universe she would be so perfectly ordinary that she'd be unrecognizable as the same character.
posted by localroger at 9:36 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Harry has no primary antagonist. I guess they'd have to invent one.
Is there a term for the opposite of shipping, when you construct a narrative with rivalries that did not exist in the original material?
posted by soelo at 9:41 AM on November 22, 2013
Is there a term for the opposite of shipping, when you construct a narrative with rivalries that did not exist in the original material?
posted by soelo at 9:41 AM on November 22, 2013
A very common critique of SF/Fantasy in general is that it tends to be plot driven rather than character driven, and I think that's in essense the same argument that you're making localroger (correct me if I'm wrong). So that's a separate (and more challenging for me to grapple with) issue from the other discussion we're having about Katniss within the context of her story in the hunger games books.
It's a critique I can understand, but I don't completely accept it, because I don't see how its possible to separate the events that people live through from who they are. This is challenging for me to think about, because it quickly gets metaphysical. Are we more than the sum total of our experiences?
If you try to simplify it too far you also lose any meaningful insight. Harry is brave, impulsive, protective. So is Tony Soprano. What about their lives makes one a deeper character than the other? (Other than the age difference, I mean most 11 year olds are not that interesting, vs. adult personalities)
posted by Wretch729 at 9:59 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's a critique I can understand, but I don't completely accept it, because I don't see how its possible to separate the events that people live through from who they are. This is challenging for me to think about, because it quickly gets metaphysical. Are we more than the sum total of our experiences?
If you try to simplify it too far you also lose any meaningful insight. Harry is brave, impulsive, protective. So is Tony Soprano. What about their lives makes one a deeper character than the other? (Other than the age difference, I mean most 11 year olds are not that interesting, vs. adult personalities)
posted by Wretch729 at 9:59 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
You're not wrong, localroger
Ha. This made me think, I'd like to see a similar textual analysis applied to GRRM's work. His repetitiveness would probably leave even Meyer in the dust.
posted by torticat at 10:26 AM on November 22, 2013
Ha. This made me think, I'd like to see a similar textual analysis applied to GRRM's work. His repetitiveness would probably leave even Meyer in the dust.
posted by torticat at 10:26 AM on November 22, 2013
This is challenging for me to think about, because it quickly gets metaphysical. Are we more than the sum total of our experiences?
This comes close to hitting the nail on the head. Tony Soprano would be Tony Soprano if he sold cars. He would still be recognizable. The stories to be told about him might not be as interesting -- he might be the star of one of those sitcoms that gets cancelled after one season because it's not very funny -- but there would be stories, which would weave together around his friends and families in a recognizable way.
Harry and Katniss are only recognizable because of their situations. What is there about Harry Potter that makes him recognizably Harry other than his exceptional situation? If he were written into another story where he isn't The One Who Lived and magic doesn't work, how would you know it's the same character? Even if he's an exceptional athlete in our world so are a lot of other people. Could you tell which of the characters in a movie like Friday Night Lights was the Potter alt-universe fanfic standin?
Similarly, if Katniss or her sister hadn't been picked for the Games, putting the events of the trilogy in motion, how would we recognize her in another story, say as the plucky girl from the Colonies who comes to make it in the big city or the sad story of coming of age in an environment of Colonial deprivation?
So I guess what I'm saying is that real people are of course more than the sum of our experiences, but the mark of certain stories is that their characters aren't.
posted by localroger at 10:34 AM on November 22, 2013
This comes close to hitting the nail on the head. Tony Soprano would be Tony Soprano if he sold cars. He would still be recognizable. The stories to be told about him might not be as interesting -- he might be the star of one of those sitcoms that gets cancelled after one season because it's not very funny -- but there would be stories, which would weave together around his friends and families in a recognizable way.
Harry and Katniss are only recognizable because of their situations. What is there about Harry Potter that makes him recognizably Harry other than his exceptional situation? If he were written into another story where he isn't The One Who Lived and magic doesn't work, how would you know it's the same character? Even if he's an exceptional athlete in our world so are a lot of other people. Could you tell which of the characters in a movie like Friday Night Lights was the Potter alt-universe fanfic standin?
Similarly, if Katniss or her sister hadn't been picked for the Games, putting the events of the trilogy in motion, how would we recognize her in another story, say as the plucky girl from the Colonies who comes to make it in the big city or the sad story of coming of age in an environment of Colonial deprivation?
So I guess what I'm saying is that real people are of course more than the sum of our experiences, but the mark of certain stories is that their characters aren't.
posted by localroger at 10:34 AM on November 22, 2013
To elaborate a bit, Tony Soprano has the aforementioned circle of friends, job stress, daddy issues, etc. all of which add up to make him a pretty recognizable individual.
What does Harry Potter do when he's not being The One? Does he like dinosaurs? Does he draw cartoons? Does he have a favorite band? Does he have an idea what he wants to be when he grows up (before Hogwarts and his Destiny intervene)? Most eleven year olds have at least a couple of topics about which they will chew your ear off. What are those topics for Harry, or for Katniss?
posted by localroger at 10:37 AM on November 22, 2013
What does Harry Potter do when he's not being The One? Does he like dinosaurs? Does he draw cartoons? Does he have a favorite band? Does he have an idea what he wants to be when he grows up (before Hogwarts and his Destiny intervene)? Most eleven year olds have at least a couple of topics about which they will chew your ear off. What are those topics for Harry, or for Katniss?
posted by localroger at 10:37 AM on November 22, 2013
I feel compelled to mention that Katniss is supposed to be 17. I was completely insufferable at 17. In a lot of ways, she's older than 17 (she's the provider for her family, her father died) but in other ways, she's not. I think one of the most compelling things with Mockingjay (before things go completely crazy) is when she asks herself why she offered Peeta the berries and whether she was actually prepared to eat them herself. She recognizes her capacity for being manipulative and hates herself for it. But she doesn't often recognize how her actions might affect those around her and that seems very 17 years old to me. Like when she nearly incites a riot while visiting District 11 and is completely taken by surprise, she says things like "I didn't mean for that to happen."
Katniss has flashbacks in both Catching Fire the movie and the book but seeing them in the movie, like when she's hunting for game and thinks she's shooting a tribute, was more effective for me than reading about it in the book. I don't think that they really went into it in the book, they just said she got flashbacks. In the movie, you really see that she is a damaged person, that it wasn't a game and that she couldn't just kill people, mentally shelve that time in her life and move on.
The issue of agency is also interesting with regard to Katniss. At first, I was going to argue that hers is an example of a story where an ordinary individual is thrust into extraordinary circumstances but she volunteered for the games the first time. And she chooses to be the Mockingjay, though I could certainly understand how someone in her position may not feel that she really had a choice. And while she frequently goes her own way, in Mockingjay, she demonstrates that she can follow the rules. She's a complicated individual, in my opinion.
I recently read Ender's Game and thought it was interesting to compare Katniss and Ender. Both were thrust into extraordinary circumstances but both could have taken an out also. And both were reluctant warriors. It's hard to compare the two extensively as Ender was a very young child when he started on his path but he recognizes the value of his leadership skills more quickly than she does (though she had to deal with her personal life more than Ender did).
It's understandable to attempt to compare the Hunger Games to the Twilight series but it's not a fair comparison. If you take the love triangle out of the Hunger Games, you still have a story about children in a totalitarian state fighting each other to the death. If you take the love triangle out of Twilight, you have a story about a girl who lives somewhere where it rains a lot.
posted by kat518 at 10:45 AM on November 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
Katniss has flashbacks in both Catching Fire the movie and the book but seeing them in the movie, like when she's hunting for game and thinks she's shooting a tribute, was more effective for me than reading about it in the book. I don't think that they really went into it in the book, they just said she got flashbacks. In the movie, you really see that she is a damaged person, that it wasn't a game and that she couldn't just kill people, mentally shelve that time in her life and move on.
The issue of agency is also interesting with regard to Katniss. At first, I was going to argue that hers is an example of a story where an ordinary individual is thrust into extraordinary circumstances but she volunteered for the games the first time. And she chooses to be the Mockingjay, though I could certainly understand how someone in her position may not feel that she really had a choice. And while she frequently goes her own way, in Mockingjay, she demonstrates that she can follow the rules. She's a complicated individual, in my opinion.
I recently read Ender's Game and thought it was interesting to compare Katniss and Ender. Both were thrust into extraordinary circumstances but both could have taken an out also. And both were reluctant warriors. It's hard to compare the two extensively as Ender was a very young child when he started on his path but he recognizes the value of his leadership skills more quickly than she does (though she had to deal with her personal life more than Ender did).
It's understandable to attempt to compare the Hunger Games to the Twilight series but it's not a fair comparison. If you take the love triangle out of the Hunger Games, you still have a story about children in a totalitarian state fighting each other to the death. If you take the love triangle out of Twilight, you have a story about a girl who lives somewhere where it rains a lot.
posted by kat518 at 10:45 AM on November 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
if Katniss or her sister hadn't been picked for the Games
She wasn't. She volunteered to die instead of her sister.
As to her character before all this happens, a cursory glance into the first few pages of HG has things like:
Even though trespassing in the woods is illegal and poaching carries the severest of penalties, more people would risk it if they had weapons. But most are not bold enough to venture out with just a knife. My bow is a rarity, crafted by my father along with a few others that I keep well hidden in the woods, carefully wrapped in waterproof covers. My father could have made good money selling them, but if the officials found out he would have been publicly executed for inciting a rebellion. Most of the Peacekeepers turn a blind eye to the few of us who hunt because they’re as hungry for fresh meat as anybody is. In fact, they’re among our best customers. But the idea that someone might be arming the Seam would never have been allowed.
and
When I was younger, I scared my mother to death, the things I would blurt out about District 12, about the people who rule our country, Panem, from the far-off city called the Capitol. Eventually I understood this would only lead us to more trouble.
Just sayin'. Now Harry, we're on the same page there.
posted by tigrrrlily at 10:46 AM on November 22, 2013
She wasn't. She volunteered to die instead of her sister.
As to her character before all this happens, a cursory glance into the first few pages of HG has things like:
Even though trespassing in the woods is illegal and poaching carries the severest of penalties, more people would risk it if they had weapons. But most are not bold enough to venture out with just a knife. My bow is a rarity, crafted by my father along with a few others that I keep well hidden in the woods, carefully wrapped in waterproof covers. My father could have made good money selling them, but if the officials found out he would have been publicly executed for inciting a rebellion. Most of the Peacekeepers turn a blind eye to the few of us who hunt because they’re as hungry for fresh meat as anybody is. In fact, they’re among our best customers. But the idea that someone might be arming the Seam would never have been allowed.
and
When I was younger, I scared my mother to death, the things I would blurt out about District 12, about the people who rule our country, Panem, from the far-off city called the Capitol. Eventually I understood this would only lead us to more trouble.
Just sayin'. Now Harry, we're on the same page there.
posted by tigrrrlily at 10:46 AM on November 22, 2013
If Potter wasn't the One Who Lived, what would he be other than just another school kid?
Surely if he weren't The One Who Lived, he'd largely have switched places with Neville, who would be? And as alternative Neville, he'd be an important secondary character?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:54 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Surely if he weren't The One Who Lived, he'd largely have switched places with Neville, who would be? And as alternative Neville, he'd be an important secondary character?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:54 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
We'll never know what the answer to Roger's question is for page 1 Harry, because the plot intervenes. But I'm certain that we have at least an idea of this for Katniss by a couple chapters in. Katniss is first of all a provider for her family. She is responsible, though like most teens is sometimes unhappy with having to be. She enjoys hunting, both because it enables her to be a provider and because it allows her time to herself, and a measure of freedom, as well as a subtle protest against an authority that she has been taught to fear. She has a friend named Gale who shares her sense of responsibility, and together they dream of running away but feel that they can't. Already very early in the story we see hints of the defiance that will come to define her. So yes, she fits certain archtypes but I do think she'd be recognizable if teleported into a different story.
I'm less sure about Harry because his character is so completely dominated by being the boy who lived though I do think you could answer it by the end of the series. ROU_Xenophobe is right, if you keep magic and Voldy but take out the boy who lived then Harry is Neville. If you take out magic entirely then Harry is an abused little 11 year old who we'll never know, and that makes me a bit sad.
Still, as he grows up I do think Harry might exist independent of the boy who lived thing. He's brave, a bit insecure, a bit defensive, intensely private, very impulsive, loyal to and protective of his friends because he grew up with none, merciful to others in a way his father was not because he can empathize with being a victim, and above all just desirous of being left alone to live in peace and have a loving family. Now you can pretty convincingly argue that this is all due to the events of his life (e.g. he's so private because pre-hogwarts the Dursleys emotionally abused him, everyone in the wizard world knows details of his family's violent past, and his mind is literally invaded by Voldemort and Snape). But if you took that Harry and teleported him into another story, I do think he'd be recognizable as an interesting individual.
I'm not sure I am as comfortable as you are Roger with saying "of course" we're more than the sum of our experiences. I'm not sure what I think about that.
Maybe I'm stretching the analogy a bit far but how is Tony's character truly separatable from the mob thing? It defines his mother's character too, so without it she's totally different, and consequently he is. It defines his messed up relationship with his dad, because without the need to maintain the family business maybe he might have gone to college or something and be totally different. His panic attacks trace back to witnessing his father beat up that butcher, so maybe he wouldn't need therapy without the mob connection. How can he exist as a recognizable character without that specific plot device?
posted by Wretch729 at 11:17 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm less sure about Harry because his character is so completely dominated by being the boy who lived though I do think you could answer it by the end of the series. ROU_Xenophobe is right, if you keep magic and Voldy but take out the boy who lived then Harry is Neville. If you take out magic entirely then Harry is an abused little 11 year old who we'll never know, and that makes me a bit sad.
Still, as he grows up I do think Harry might exist independent of the boy who lived thing. He's brave, a bit insecure, a bit defensive, intensely private, very impulsive, loyal to and protective of his friends because he grew up with none, merciful to others in a way his father was not because he can empathize with being a victim, and above all just desirous of being left alone to live in peace and have a loving family. Now you can pretty convincingly argue that this is all due to the events of his life (e.g. he's so private because pre-hogwarts the Dursleys emotionally abused him, everyone in the wizard world knows details of his family's violent past, and his mind is literally invaded by Voldemort and Snape). But if you took that Harry and teleported him into another story, I do think he'd be recognizable as an interesting individual.
I'm not sure I am as comfortable as you are Roger with saying "of course" we're more than the sum of our experiences. I'm not sure what I think about that.
Maybe I'm stretching the analogy a bit far but how is Tony's character truly separatable from the mob thing? It defines his mother's character too, so without it she's totally different, and consequently he is. It defines his messed up relationship with his dad, because without the need to maintain the family business maybe he might have gone to college or something and be totally different. His panic attacks trace back to witnessing his father beat up that butcher, so maybe he wouldn't need therapy without the mob connection. How can he exist as a recognizable character without that specific plot device?
posted by Wretch729 at 11:17 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
if Katniss or her sister hadn't been picked for the Games
She wasn't. She volunteered to die instead of her sister.
This qualifies as "or her sister." Since her sister was picked Katniss volunteered to save her, end result same as if Katniss had been picked.
posted by localroger at 11:24 AM on November 22, 2013
She wasn't. She volunteered to die instead of her sister.
This qualifies as "or her sister." Since her sister was picked Katniss volunteered to save her, end result same as if Katniss had been picked.
posted by localroger at 11:24 AM on November 22, 2013
I think it's okay to admit that Hunger Games is a little vapid, and it's okay for you to like vapid things. Hey, I really enjoy B horror films, and I'm totally okay not defending them against their detractors. We don't need to come up with reasons to excuse the author's ham-handed treatment of what is ultimately an only-okay Battle Royale fanfiction.
posted by Mooseli at 11:28 AM on November 22, 2013
posted by Mooseli at 11:28 AM on November 22, 2013
Mooseli I think it's completely valid for you to have that opinion, again this is arguably a matter of taste, but it's pretty clear from the conversation here that not everyone agrees that Hunger Games is objectively vapid. I personally found the writing pretty simplistic but the message profound.
I don't even think Roger is arguing hunger games is vapid, he's just saying Katniss' characterization is all dependent on the plot rather than being innate. I'm saying I'm genuinely unsure whether there's such a thing as innate character. I am aware of the danger of speaking on others behalf so I hope this isn't a mischaracterization (hah) of his views.
posted by Wretch729 at 11:36 AM on November 22, 2013
I don't even think Roger is arguing hunger games is vapid, he's just saying Katniss' characterization is all dependent on the plot rather than being innate. I'm saying I'm genuinely unsure whether there's such a thing as innate character. I am aware of the danger of speaking on others behalf so I hope this isn't a mischaracterization (hah) of his views.
posted by Wretch729 at 11:36 AM on November 22, 2013
We don't need to come up with reasons to excuse the author's ham-handed treatment of what is ultimately an only-okay Battle Royale fanfiction.
I always see this tossed off as a glib critique/comment on The Hunger Games, and it's annoying. Yes, The Hunger Games series is not great literature. But it's not a vapid series: it has some substantive and hard things to say about trauma, "reality" programming, revolution, consumer culture, and violence, and it's more than just a Battle Royale copycat. It's one thing to ask if Katniss's characterization hinges entirely on the plot and to critique the actual writing or construction, it's another to dismiss the whole series as vapid.
posted by yasaman at 11:47 AM on November 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
I always see this tossed off as a glib critique/comment on The Hunger Games, and it's annoying. Yes, The Hunger Games series is not great literature. But it's not a vapid series: it has some substantive and hard things to say about trauma, "reality" programming, revolution, consumer culture, and violence, and it's more than just a Battle Royale copycat. It's one thing to ask if Katniss's characterization hinges entirely on the plot and to critique the actual writing or construction, it's another to dismiss the whole series as vapid.
posted by yasaman at 11:47 AM on November 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
How can he [Tony Soprano] exist as a recognizable character without that specific plot device?
Tony has a stressful but well-paying job and had an abusive childhood. The influence on his character could be the same without the stressful job being "mobster."
posted by localroger at 11:49 AM on November 22, 2013
Tony has a stressful but well-paying job and had an abusive childhood. The influence on his character could be the same without the stressful job being "mobster."
posted by localroger at 11:49 AM on November 22, 2013
Fine but then if we make the analogy fair and rewind Tony to age 11 to pair him with the Harry Potter on page 1 of the first book you have two kids in abusive childhoods. If we fastforward Harry to his adult job as an auror (wizard cop) you have two adult males with stressful jobs and abusive childhoods. Again, at that level of abstraction how is the one's characterization unique?
posted by Wretch729 at 11:52 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 11:52 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure I am as comfortable as you are Roger with saying "of course" we're more than the sum of our experiences. I'm not sure what I think about that.
If we are "the sum of our experiences," then that sum is calculated in a precisely chaotic way that makes unraveling the strands of what made us what we are very difficult to chase. Exactly why does one child obsess on dinosaurs while for another it's fire trucks? Sometimes you can go back and identify the influence but usually not. And even when you can, why do some images stick with us while others slide off into the well of the forgotten?
There are strange attractors in the space of human personality but there is also a lot of randomness -- perhaps actual quantum randomness introduced by thermal noise -- in how our experiences influence our development.
This is, incidentally, one of the reasons long form stories are interesting; they give us an opportunity to experience another life, to try it on and imagine what it would be like to be such a thoroughly different person. That can be a fascinating exercise even when it isn't fun, which is why Mary Sue isn't the only character in the history of literature.
posted by localroger at 11:54 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
If we are "the sum of our experiences," then that sum is calculated in a precisely chaotic way that makes unraveling the strands of what made us what we are very difficult to chase. Exactly why does one child obsess on dinosaurs while for another it's fire trucks? Sometimes you can go back and identify the influence but usually not. And even when you can, why do some images stick with us while others slide off into the well of the forgotten?
There are strange attractors in the space of human personality but there is also a lot of randomness -- perhaps actual quantum randomness introduced by thermal noise -- in how our experiences influence our development.
This is, incidentally, one of the reasons long form stories are interesting; they give us an opportunity to experience another life, to try it on and imagine what it would be like to be such a thoroughly different person. That can be a fascinating exercise even when it isn't fun, which is why Mary Sue isn't the only character in the history of literature.
posted by localroger at 11:54 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Fine but then if we make the analogy fair and rewind Tony to age 11 to pair him with the Harry Potter on page 1 of the first book you have two kids in abusive childhoods. If we fastforward Harry to his adult job as an auror (wizard cop) you have two adult males with stressful jobs and abusive childhoods. Again, at that level of abstraction how is the one's characterization unique?
I'm not sure I know how to explain that it is this thing that makes the reading of literature interesting, because all people who experience certain things do not react the same way.
posted by localroger at 11:56 AM on November 22, 2013
I'm not sure I know how to explain that it is this thing that makes the reading of literature interesting, because all people who experience certain things do not react the same way.
posted by localroger at 11:56 AM on November 22, 2013
The Hunger Games is about 1 and 3/4ths a terrific series, and then the end of the second book and the third book are unpleasant and sloggy as hell.
I was sick the weekend before last and ended up reading the Hunger Games trilogy. I'm with Rory. I thought the first book was fun, and thought the second book was mostly fun, but then it just got tedious. I thought it might just have been fatigue since I read them in a 48 hour period, but you guys seem to be backing me up.
I liked Katniss as a character. Do you have any idea how thrilling it is to have a flawed FEMALE be the hero? She's manipulative. She's an introvert. She's not very friendly. She's tough and unapologetic about it. And that's pretty awesome. Usually when you have female protagonists they have to be perfect and strong and amazeballs all the time to make up for them being crippled right out of the gate by their obviously inferior femaleness. But not Katniss.
I think the thing that most disappointed me about the books was that she fucking married Peeta. Just once I'd like to see a story about a girl stuck in a love triangle situation just say, "NOPE, HOLD UP, neither of you bros are all that awesome so I'm going to do my own thing for a while, probably date some people I don't have this weird fucked up history with. Also I'm seventeen and you're being creepy."
But I guess we can't have everything.
posted by phunniemee at 11:56 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
I was sick the weekend before last and ended up reading the Hunger Games trilogy. I'm with Rory. I thought the first book was fun, and thought the second book was mostly fun, but then it just got tedious. I thought it might just have been fatigue since I read them in a 48 hour period, but you guys seem to be backing me up.
I liked Katniss as a character. Do you have any idea how thrilling it is to have a flawed FEMALE be the hero? She's manipulative. She's an introvert. She's not very friendly. She's tough and unapologetic about it. And that's pretty awesome. Usually when you have female protagonists they have to be perfect and strong and amazeballs all the time to make up for them being crippled right out of the gate by their obviously inferior femaleness. But not Katniss.
I think the thing that most disappointed me about the books was that she fucking married Peeta. Just once I'd like to see a story about a girl stuck in a love triangle situation just say, "NOPE, HOLD UP, neither of you bros are all that awesome so I'm going to do my own thing for a while, probably date some people I don't have this weird fucked up history with. Also I'm seventeen and you're being creepy."
But I guess we can't have everything.
posted by phunniemee at 11:56 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
an only-okay Battle Royalefanfiction.
I am constantly disappointed in the lack of classical education here.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:59 AM on November 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
I am constantly disappointed in the lack of classical education here.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:59 AM on November 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
The influence on his character could be the same without the stressful job being "mobster."
Yeah, this is why this doesn't work so great for fantasy/sci fi media. Who is Harry Potter without magic and being the Chosen One? Well, I don't know, but I could construct a whole analogous alternate universe where Harry's parents were killed by a hate group that they were involved in activism against, and then Harry grew up in an abusive home, and then went on to the ritzy boarding school his parents attended and blah blah blah. The point is, the plot device can be different, but the effect still needs to be somewhat the same to end up with a character who's still recognizably themselves.
Anyway, given the givens, I think Harry is still an interesting character and more than a Mary Sue. Even from the first book, he's established as having a dry, wry sense of humor, he's shy and loyal to his friends, he's distrustful of authority, he's brave and impulsive, and he's a frankly ludicrously dogged child investigator. He would still be all of these things even if he wasn't the Chosen One, but you do still have to maintain some sense of continuity with the source plot-wise (i.e. still an orphan, still grew up neglected, etc.).
posted by yasaman at 12:13 PM on November 22, 2013
Yeah, this is why this doesn't work so great for fantasy/sci fi media. Who is Harry Potter without magic and being the Chosen One? Well, I don't know, but I could construct a whole analogous alternate universe where Harry's parents were killed by a hate group that they were involved in activism against, and then Harry grew up in an abusive home, and then went on to the ritzy boarding school his parents attended and blah blah blah. The point is, the plot device can be different, but the effect still needs to be somewhat the same to end up with a character who's still recognizably themselves.
Anyway, given the givens, I think Harry is still an interesting character and more than a Mary Sue. Even from the first book, he's established as having a dry, wry sense of humor, he's shy and loyal to his friends, he's distrustful of authority, he's brave and impulsive, and he's a frankly ludicrously dogged child investigator. He would still be all of these things even if he wasn't the Chosen One, but you do still have to maintain some sense of continuity with the source plot-wise (i.e. still an orphan, still grew up neglected, etc.).
posted by yasaman at 12:13 PM on November 22, 2013
This is, incidentally, one of the reasons long form stories are interesting; they give us an opportunity to experience another life, to try it on and imagine what it would be like to be such a thoroughly different person. That can be a fascinating exercise even when it isn't fun, which is why Mary Sue isn't the only character in the history of literature.
This is such an eloquent way of articulating this! I very much agree with it, I might even go farther and say that experiencing "the other" in this way is the highest purpose of fiction. But I think I didn't make my actual point clear. yasaman said it better.
I'm not sure how to say what I mean without pointlessly rehashing the tabula rasa debate, because I'm pretty sure behavioral genetics gives some pretty convincing evidence that yes some traits are just innate and some people will react differently to the exact same events. I was more trying to argue that Tony Soprano as a character is equally dependent on plot events as Harry Potter is. SF/F just tends to have more fantastic/implausible plot events than realist fiction. You say Harry isn't an interesting person absent the wizard stuff but Tony isn't an interesting person absent the mob stuff, he's just some suburban guy! Harry would still be all the things yasaman lists, Tony would still be all the things you list, but neither of them would be the same.
posted by Wretch729 at 12:59 PM on November 22, 2013
This is such an eloquent way of articulating this! I very much agree with it, I might even go farther and say that experiencing "the other" in this way is the highest purpose of fiction. But I think I didn't make my actual point clear. yasaman said it better.
I'm not sure how to say what I mean without pointlessly rehashing the tabula rasa debate, because I'm pretty sure behavioral genetics gives some pretty convincing evidence that yes some traits are just innate and some people will react differently to the exact same events. I was more trying to argue that Tony Soprano as a character is equally dependent on plot events as Harry Potter is. SF/F just tends to have more fantastic/implausible plot events than realist fiction. You say Harry isn't an interesting person absent the wizard stuff but Tony isn't an interesting person absent the mob stuff, he's just some suburban guy! Harry would still be all the things yasaman lists, Tony would still be all the things you list, but neither of them would be the same.
posted by Wretch729 at 12:59 PM on November 22, 2013
Although I do think there's a fundamental difference between Harry and Tony in that we meet them at such different points in their lives that maybe it was a mistake for me to ever make the analogy in the first place. Harry's story is a bildungsroman (h/t to the navelgazer comment I referenced before) and we initially meet a very undeveloped character who must be built up. Tony we meet in medias res at a time when he is well established in his role as a mob boss, father, and so on. So a little bit apples to oranges maybe.
I'm trying to think of a better analogy. Maybe Harry to Scout in To Kill A Mockingbird? That's one of the most famous coming of age stories with good characterization I can think of...
posted by Wretch729 at 1:05 PM on November 22, 2013
I'm trying to think of a better analogy. Maybe Harry to Scout in To Kill A Mockingbird? That's one of the most famous coming of age stories with good characterization I can think of...
posted by Wretch729 at 1:05 PM on November 22, 2013
I was kind of annoyed that Katniss ends up with Peeta also but it's kind of subversive that Peeta spends most of the book basically as the damsel in distress. I can be loyal to a fault so I felt loyal towards Gale but I get why she ended up with Peeta. He complements her. She's very intense, he's chill. Both my friend and I are intense and we're married to people who are really chill. Plus he's the only person who really understands what she's been through. Katniss is a hard nut to crack and he's one of the few people who can crack the nut.
It would have been rad if she was like, I just went through an incredible amount of shit, I'm going to not be with anyone for a while but it seemed like that was kind of what she did. Plus Katniss doesn't seem like the type to want to run from her life experiences. And cynically, people would have been really disappointed if she ended up alone in the end.
posted by kat518 at 1:10 PM on November 22, 2013
It would have been rad if she was like, I just went through an incredible amount of shit, I'm going to not be with anyone for a while but it seemed like that was kind of what she did. Plus Katniss doesn't seem like the type to want to run from her life experiences. And cynically, people would have been really disappointed if she ended up alone in the end.
posted by kat518 at 1:10 PM on November 22, 2013
Just once I'd like to see a story about a girl stuck in a love triangle situation just say, "NOPE, HOLD UP, neither of you bros are all that awesome so I'm going to do my own thing for a while, probably date some people I don't have this weird fucked up history with. Also I'm seventeen and you're being creepy."
You want Tamora Pierce for that, though she's less with the dramatic love triangles and more with the growing up and getting over it.
posted by asperity at 1:12 PM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
You want Tamora Pierce for that, though she's less with the dramatic love triangles and more with the growing up and getting over it.
posted by asperity at 1:12 PM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
And cynically, people would have been really disappointed if she ended up alone in the end.
Yeah, there's actually an interesting move in dystopian (or similar) YA books having almost an expected Happily Ever After ending, with a lot of furious reponses when it doesn't happen, so the stories are more "how will this turn out well?" and not "how will this turn out?", and the stakes, despite all the danger, are always very low (or feel like they are). One book I remember had everyone heading off to hell to save some character and though the description of hell was fascinating, there was no tension in the scene.
posted by jeather at 1:56 PM on November 22, 2013
Yeah, there's actually an interesting move in dystopian (or similar) YA books having almost an expected Happily Ever After ending, with a lot of furious reponses when it doesn't happen, so the stories are more "how will this turn out well?" and not "how will this turn out?", and the stakes, despite all the danger, are always very low (or feel like they are). One book I remember had everyone heading off to hell to save some character and though the description of hell was fascinating, there was no tension in the scene.
posted by jeather at 1:56 PM on November 22, 2013
The trick with Mockingjay is that I didn't enjoy it, but if I stop and think about why I didn't like it, I have to admit that it was very well done.
Katniss has one of the most realistic reactions I've ever seen from a protagonist, but there's a reason our heroes and heroines usually don't get PTSD - because it makes them less fun. It's the same thing with Harry Potter - Harry spends a lot of book 6 being a bit of a dick. He's more teenaged about it - it's more angst than trauma response, but he's dislikeable at times in those books (and his friends, eventually, let him know it!). It's another reason I think it's unfair to imply he's a Mary Sue - a Mary Sue wouldn't have been so obnoxious about the Half Blood Prince's book. A Mary Sue would have somehow rescued Draco and kept him from attacking Dumbledore in the first place thanks to the magical power of friendship.
Meanwhile, fucking Bella gets dump and tries to throw herself off a cliff or some motorcycle shit. Fucking drama.
posted by maryr at 2:01 PM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
Katniss has one of the most realistic reactions I've ever seen from a protagonist, but there's a reason our heroes and heroines usually don't get PTSD - because it makes them less fun. It's the same thing with Harry Potter - Harry spends a lot of book 6 being a bit of a dick. He's more teenaged about it - it's more angst than trauma response, but he's dislikeable at times in those books (and his friends, eventually, let him know it!). It's another reason I think it's unfair to imply he's a Mary Sue - a Mary Sue wouldn't have been so obnoxious about the Half Blood Prince's book. A Mary Sue would have somehow rescued Draco and kept him from attacking Dumbledore in the first place thanks to the magical power of friendship.
Meanwhile, fucking Bella gets dump and tries to throw herself off a cliff or some motorcycle shit. Fucking drama.
posted by maryr at 2:01 PM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
And part of my issue, which I wasn't clear about -- there are lots of ways to have tension or stakes, and it doesn't have to be "Will this character DIE?????", but for a lot of dystopian YA, those are the stakes they are going for, and knowing that the answer is pretty much always going to be no (there have been a few exceptions -- Hunger Games, a recent release that got a lot of bad reviews because of that which I won't spoil -- but they are rare), you have no actual stakes.
There are ways to have stakes when you know the ending -- romance novels, when well done, are successful at this -- but it doesn't seem to have worked its way through to the genre as a whole yet.
posted by jeather at 2:06 PM on November 22, 2013
There are ways to have stakes when you know the ending -- romance novels, when well done, are successful at this -- but it doesn't seem to have worked its way through to the genre as a whole yet.
posted by jeather at 2:06 PM on November 22, 2013
an only-okay Battle Royalefanfiction.
I am constantly disappointed in the lack of classical education here.
Can someone fill me in on the classical education I'm missing too?
posted by Ned G at 2:15 PM on November 22, 2013
I am constantly disappointed in the lack of classical education here.
Can someone fill me in on the classical education I'm missing too?
posted by Ned G at 2:15 PM on November 22, 2013
Collins mentioned several times that she based the book partially on the myth of Theseus and the minotaur, also on gladiators.
posted by jeather at 2:18 PM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by jeather at 2:18 PM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
You say Harry isn't an interesting person absent the wizard stuff but Tony isn't an interesting person absent the mob stuff, he's just some suburban guy!
This isn't at all what I meant. With nearly 10 billion people in the world very few of us are going to be interesting enough to be the subject of such a popular story. But we are all recognizable to those who know us at all. We have a combination of mannerisms, skills, appearance, and so on by which people who have met us know who we are. I am still recognized by people I haven't seen since high school over 30 years ago. They don't know I'm localroger or about any of my online writing or what I ended up doing for work, but they know I'm the guy they went to school with.
There may be such a personality beneath Harry and Katniss, but if so the authors never bother to introduce us. Other than their special circumstances we don't know any of the things that might differentiate them from any other random person of their age and social class -- do they like turnips? What is their favorite color? Eleven, much less seventeen, is old enough to have acquired a rich tapestry of interests and aversions. Yet we know nothing about these people that was or even could have been formed outside the drama of their major story.
By contrast, we know many such things about Tony Soprano. We know his taste in liquor, we know what foods he likes, we know he has a soft spot for animals. We know he has a short temper and a cruel streak but also that he is a devoted father and family man. We know the kind of people he hangs out with (even if we didn't know they were mobsters we'd know they gather at a strip club, as plenty of non-mobsters like to do). We also know that his wife puts up with this, which creates an interesting dynamic in the marriage.
And the thing is, while some of those things might share origin with his family business, none of them have to. The striking thing about Tony Soprano is that when he's not conducting business he is very strikingly normal. And this is an impression that we can only get because all those details are conveyed, and they add up to a picture of a man who makes sense outside the context of the family business.
There are, of course, millions of Italian-American businessmen who don't have a TV show about them because their business isn't the mafia, but if you met Tony on the street you wouldn't realize within minutes that he's That Special Guy. But from the moment of we meet them, that's all Harry and Katniss are. They could be replaced in their respective stories by very different people -- someone more self-absorbed and less loyal than Harry, someone more heroic and less affected by PTSD than Katniss -- and the story would change little. But if you change Tony Soprano to a bookish guy who is guarded and lives only for the moments of sadism he can arrange, you have changed everything. The fact that Tony is Tony is part of Tony's story. Harry and Katniss much less so.
posted by localroger at 3:40 PM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
This isn't at all what I meant. With nearly 10 billion people in the world very few of us are going to be interesting enough to be the subject of such a popular story. But we are all recognizable to those who know us at all. We have a combination of mannerisms, skills, appearance, and so on by which people who have met us know who we are. I am still recognized by people I haven't seen since high school over 30 years ago. They don't know I'm localroger or about any of my online writing or what I ended up doing for work, but they know I'm the guy they went to school with.
There may be such a personality beneath Harry and Katniss, but if so the authors never bother to introduce us. Other than their special circumstances we don't know any of the things that might differentiate them from any other random person of their age and social class -- do they like turnips? What is their favorite color? Eleven, much less seventeen, is old enough to have acquired a rich tapestry of interests and aversions. Yet we know nothing about these people that was or even could have been formed outside the drama of their major story.
By contrast, we know many such things about Tony Soprano. We know his taste in liquor, we know what foods he likes, we know he has a soft spot for animals. We know he has a short temper and a cruel streak but also that he is a devoted father and family man. We know the kind of people he hangs out with (even if we didn't know they were mobsters we'd know they gather at a strip club, as plenty of non-mobsters like to do). We also know that his wife puts up with this, which creates an interesting dynamic in the marriage.
And the thing is, while some of those things might share origin with his family business, none of them have to. The striking thing about Tony Soprano is that when he's not conducting business he is very strikingly normal. And this is an impression that we can only get because all those details are conveyed, and they add up to a picture of a man who makes sense outside the context of the family business.
There are, of course, millions of Italian-American businessmen who don't have a TV show about them because their business isn't the mafia, but if you met Tony on the street you wouldn't realize within minutes that he's That Special Guy. But from the moment of we meet them, that's all Harry and Katniss are. They could be replaced in their respective stories by very different people -- someone more self-absorbed and less loyal than Harry, someone more heroic and less affected by PTSD than Katniss -- and the story would change little. But if you change Tony Soprano to a bookish guy who is guarded and lives only for the moments of sadism he can arrange, you have changed everything. The fact that Tony is Tony is part of Tony's story. Harry and Katniss much less so.
posted by localroger at 3:40 PM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
> "... a recent release that got a lot of bad reviews because of that which I won't spoil ..."
Just found out today that the unnamed-book-to-which-you-are-referring is getting slammed because of that and I have to say I am ... kind of shocked. The book is not without problems, but the bitter anger of the reviews make it pretty obvious that a lot of people are equating "this book made me upset!" with "this is a bad book!" Wow.
posted by kyrademon at 5:23 AM on November 23, 2013
Just found out today that the unnamed-book-to-which-you-are-referring is getting slammed because of that and I have to say I am ... kind of shocked. The book is not without problems, but the bitter anger of the reviews make it pretty obvious that a lot of people are equating "this book made me upset!" with "this is a bad book!" Wow.
posted by kyrademon at 5:23 AM on November 23, 2013
Put that way that's pretty compelling, and I think I finally understand what you mean. Also my SO said almost exactly the same thing when I mentioned this thread to her, so you're in good company!
posted by Wretch729 at 7:27 AM on November 23, 2013
posted by Wretch729 at 7:27 AM on November 23, 2013
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I had a friend in college who rather obsessively did this sort of analysis for various science fiction works. He had graphs, theories to explain changes in different decades - he was kind of obsessive about trends in the 1970s. It wasn't his major (he was an engineer, switched to something computer-ish later on), just something he really liked. Reading this kind of brought back fond memories.
Rowling’s betray her reliance on suspense: “Harry looked around,” “He waited,” “Harry stared.” (A list of her most frequently used sentences could be repurposed into a script for an absurdist play called Waiting for Voldemort.)
This should be a thing.
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:04 AM on November 22, 2013 [4 favorites]