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But what about the dogs?!
January 19, 2014 11:50 AM   Subscribe

NBC's critically lauded thriller Hannibal released a season two trailer today. Author and fandom superstar Cleolinda Jones livetweeted the entire TCA preview event. (Spoilers for Season One, general screaming and rending of garments)
posted by The Whelk (347 comments total) 19 users marked this as a favorite


Someone check elizardbits and see if she's still breathing.
posted by fatbird at 11:54 AM on January 19 [7 favorites]

I'm so happy I could high-five that hand in the incinerator.
posted by phaedon at 12:02 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

Hannibal is to other grim tv shows as that block-long SUV limo with a hot tub in it that shouldn't even be street legal is to the other limos at prom.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:08 PM on January 19 [14 favorites]

This is perfect timing- I'm just putting together a selection of meats and cheeses to bring over to a friend's house for a little cocktail party he's throwing.

I've got a raw milk Comté, an ash-ripened buffalo milk cheese, a sheep's milk version of a Camembert, and some...well, let's call it guanciale.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:08 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

It's too bad NBC never saw fit to put the rest of season 1 up for streaming so those of us who didn't hear about it until too late could catch up. I guess I'll have to wait for it to come out on DVD.
posted by localroger at 12:11 PM on January 19

It's out on Netflix DVDs! I got it from there..and I think it's on Amazon streaming?

What I'm saying is watch it or I'll find you and turn you into tacos.
posted by The Whelk at 12:12 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]

D'oh, it is out. Added to Netflix queue.
posted by localroger at 12:13 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

the commentaries are *great* BTW and I never listen to TV show commentary tracks.
posted by The Whelk at 12:14 PM on January 19

There are choruses of "OMG too many season 2 spoilers" all over the Internet.

Some people are never happy.
posted by Kitteh at 12:19 PM on January 19

Amazon has 'em but they want more for the season than I'm paying Netflix per month. Might not quite get caught up before the premiere but I'll at least see the first six episodes, and I've seen the last three, so should be OK. I'm in.
posted by localroger at 12:19 PM on January 19

Bon appétit
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:19 PM on January 19

Bryan Fuller has an epic seven season plan for the show.

That may sound ambitious, but I've read the show is presold in so many territories that it's wildly profitable for the producers before they see a dime from NBC. So maybe it's possible.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:19 PM on January 19

Bryan Fuller has an epic seven season plan for the show.

I only hope he has epic 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 season plans as well.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:22 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]

Ok, I'll admit it. I watched a couple of episodes, and it is just too much for my apparently tender constitution. And I'm a fan of Game of Thrones.
posted by sutt at 12:22 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

One unexpected side effect of this show is I'm wearing a lot more dark greens and purples.
posted by The Whelk at 12:23 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

One unexpected side effect of this show is I'm wearing a lot more dark greens and purples.

There have been times I'm getting dressed for a date, and my "Casual or formal?" thought process begins with "Will or Hannibal?"

Damned if I know why I'm still single.
posted by Tomorrowful at 12:32 PM on January 19 [17 favorites]

sooooooo excited... and hungry
posted by infinitewindow at 12:34 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

Dude, that cover of "Stand By Me." Well done, show. Well done.

(And oh god the look on Alana's poor face. And Beverly! Stay away from Beverly, Fancy Cannibal!)
posted by dogheart at 12:34 PM on January 19 [3 favorites]

Gah, I've got a friend on that show and I keep trying to watch it to be supportive but bleeergh isn't life is already glum enough by nature without our TV time being occupied entirely by narratives about wickedness and despair? (See also: Homicide, The Wire, all those crime shows that open with stomach-churning gore, Treme, Sopranos, and pretty much the rest of the critically-acclaimed lot of cult TV)

So far, I've been getting through the process of watching by bracketing the show in episodes of The Mothers-In-Law, because Eve Arden and Kaye Ballard can make almost anything better.
posted by sonascope at 12:49 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]

It looks glorious! Hopefully, we will be able to see all seven seasons, but I find it hard to be super optimistic about ratings for Hannibal.
posted by Harpocrates at 12:49 PM on January 19

Please don't let Hannibal get Beverly

Please don't let Hannibal get Beverly

Please don't let Hannibal get Beverly
posted by tel3path at 12:50 PM on January 19 [6 favorites]

I've been wearing lots of wide Full Windsor knots in anticipation!
posted by Greg Nog at 12:51 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

posted by The Whelk at 12:51 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]

(Speaking of Mensware, Creator Bryan Fuller in a Hannibal suit with matching MURDER TIE. My heart. Swoon.)
posted by The Whelk at 12:54 PM on January 19 [5 favorites]

greg has also been consuming a lot of human flesh
posted by elizardbits at 12:55 PM on January 19

Really looking forward to Hannibal, and The Americans starts up again the same week... cool.
posted by and for no one at 12:56 PM on January 19

greg has also been consuming a lot of human flesh

Jack keeps asking me what this pile of bloody red meat has been and i've been like "gummi worms" and he's like oh my gosh have i told u that bella loves gummi worms these are great gummi worms
posted by Greg Nog at 1:10 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]

My goodness I am excite! This show you guys..I just...when these threads pop up I feel like less the weirdo. Thank you, truly.

P.s. Hannibal got me eating in the continental style (just not people).
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 1:11 PM on January 19

I've ...made recipes from the blog of the show's food stylist...
posted by The Whelk at 1:12 PM on January 19 [3 favorites]

It's funny that the gore on this show doesn't bother me *at all*. I barely notice it.

And I would describe myself as moderately squeamish. I don't habitually watch horror.
posted by tel3path at 1:17 PM on January 19

(actually Bryan basically cosplaying a version of another author's character cements my opinion that the whole show is the best, most loving fan work ever.)
posted by The Whelk at 1:17 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

stop it you two
posted by The Whelk at 1:18 PM on January 19 [3 favorites]

I just cannot get interested in any show where back episodes are not available to stream on services I already pay for and/or "have a login for". Which is basically all the services.

I don't really see the point of NBC completely boxing up their flagship content. It makes sense for HBO, to a degree, though even HBO puts basically everything on HBOGo in the end.
posted by Sara C. at 1:19 PM on January 19

I'm not usually a huge fan of horror, except some specific heavily-sciencey subtypes, but I really enjoy the dreamlike horror on the show. I don't like the food! I know it's people, and I don't find it appealing because it is people, I don't want to eat people (or drink people beer or people wine).
posted by jeather at 1:23 PM on January 19

Hannibal is available on Netflix, though I guess not streaming.
posted by Justinian at 1:25 PM on January 19

Well I do mostly like the food but I just cook it without people.
posted by tel3path at 1:29 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

Mostly without people.
posted by Justinian at 1:31 PM on January 19

wouldn't want to waste anything.
posted by The Whelk at 1:32 PM on January 19

The explicit fucking around with the canon of the novels and movies is one of my favorite aspects of the show, so I let out a noise of elation when I saw the poster of Will in the facemask.
posted by griphus at 1:34 PM on January 19 [6 favorites]

Yeah if the first 9 episodes were available on ad-supported streaming I'd be catching up right now. But I'm already paying for Netflix DVD and they are there, so they're now in queue.

NBC is being stupid about this. There's been a lot of buzz and a lot of people would probably pick the show up for season 2 if they could catch up on the first episodes.
posted by localroger at 1:34 PM on January 19

The explicit fucking around with the canon of the novels and movies is one of my favorite aspects of the show

There is that throwaway line from the books that the first person who saw Hannibal's basement had to retire from the force...

..and it looks like Jack is going into the pantry.....
posted by The Whelk at 1:36 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

If you google "Hannibal streaming", there are plenty of not-entirely-unsketchy sites that have the whole first season up for watching!
posted by Greg Nog at 1:36 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

I'm rereading all the books in preparation and I forgot all about the awesome newish forward of Red Dragon where Thomas Harris describes writing Red Dragon in his neighbor's corn field shed somewhere in the Mississippi Delta, surrounded at night by a pack of feral dogs.
posted by elizardbits at 1:39 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

It's funny that the gore on this show doesn't bother me *at all*. I barely notice it.

The fact that every serial killer apparently has an MFA in conceptual art helps quite a lot.
posted by griphus at 1:40 PM on January 19 [24 favorites]


(Stand By Me would be on the short list for "my favoritest song of all time ever" and BRYAN FULLER JUST USED IT AGAINST ME AND THAT IS NOT OKAY. ... There are also many other NOT OKAY things shown or hinted at in that trailer.)

Anyway, the only important part of the TCA thing for Hannibal was this happening.
posted by sparkletone at 1:41 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

The only thing I really couldn't look at was That One Face, You Know The One, Even Hugh Dancy Couldn't Cope With It.
posted by elizardbits at 1:41 PM on January 19

the pez dispenser head yes.

I rewatched Red Dragon next to Manhunter and an essay on directorial technique nearly fell out of me.
posted by The Whelk at 1:42 PM on January 19 [3 favorites]

Anyway, the only important part of the TCA thing for Hannibal was this happening.

It is like seeing a GIF of a cat and a
puppy playing and all I can do is point and the screen and shout FRIENDS!
posted by griphus at 1:43 PM on January 19

quick someone conspire to get them on a tandem bicycle.

we made flower crowns happen dammit we can do this.
posted by The Whelk at 1:44 PM on January 19

The DEAD LIKE ME crossover was incredible. And you'd totally miss it if you're unfamiliar with the show!
posted by Justinian at 1:46 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]

Or if you don't speak german I guess.
posted by elizardbits at 1:47 PM on January 19

This show is equally as good as Adventure Time and its exact opposite.
posted by neuromodulator at 1:52 PM on January 19

elizardbits: "greg has also been consuming a lot of human flesh"

posted by invitapriore at 1:53 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

Georgia isn't all that common a first name, so having the name Georgia and the same actress playing a character who believes she is dead would be a pretty big tip-off even if you don't know that "Madchen" and "Lass" are equivalent names.
posted by Justinian at 1:57 PM on January 19

On third or fourth watching of the trailer... In addition to Fuller's verbal promise that we'll learn how the whole ear thing from last season happened, it looks like there's a split second shot in the trailer of a clearly drugged and intubated Will. So, uh. Yeah. I'm guessing that's what that is.
posted by sparkletone at 2:00 PM on January 19

There is that throwaway line from the books that the first person who saw Hannibal's basement had to retire from the force...

The thing I love about this show: Any other show, you might be worried that they had missed that line. Not this show. (It probably says nothing good about me that I am a-quiver with anticipation for that basement.)
posted by dogheart at 2:01 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

plenty of not-entirely-unsketchy sites that have the whole first season up

By "not entirely unsketchy" exactly what are my chances of getting my computer hosed by malware if I try this?
posted by localroger at 2:03 PM on January 19

posted by dipping_sauce at 2:07 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

Let me answer my own question there. The very first return for "Hannibal Streaming" had a nice list of all the episodes up, offered me "free premium" quality, and when I clicked on s1e1 it spawned a self-maximizing browser window that would not take no for an answer to install a "java update." Had to kill the process three times (fortunately I've got two monitors) before I could stop the page loading in time.
posted by localroger at 2:08 PM on January 19

You can watch them on Amazon, though I don't know how much it costs.
posted by Justinian at 2:11 PM on January 19

USD$21 on Amazon for the entire season or USD$3 per episode. I'll just wait for Netflix to mal me the DVD's.
posted by localroger at 2:13 PM on January 19

Honestly my only problem with the show is that I don't think Baltimore ever gets cold enough to justify all those layers.
posted by The Whelk at 2:16 PM on January 19 [5 favorites]

Has someone started up a Tom And Lorenzo-esque fashion blog about Hannibal? Because someone should. The Whelk.
posted by Sara C. at 2:27 PM on January 19

Shit, they're on to us.
posted by sparkletone at 2:31 PM on January 19

...okay now I have something to pitch.
posted by The Whelk at 2:32 PM on January 19

(I actually have a half written essay on the clothing symbolism on the show if anyone out there wants to snatch it up as a trial run of a Hannibal fashion column.)
posted by The Whelk at 2:47 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

Honestly my only problem with the show is that I don't think Baltimore ever gets cold enough to justify all those layers.

Baltimore's miserably cold in winter. Used to have to tape up the windows to my office in the clock tower and I was still courting witch's tit territory. Maryland in general gets horribly cold, which is sad because we hardly get snow, so it's all the shittiness of winter without the fluffy magic.

Weather is not our strong suit.

Fortunately, I look good in coats, berets and scarves.
posted by sonascope at 3:17 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

This show is like the penzeys spices slogan: "love people. Cook them in tasty food." (That's how it goes, right?)
posted by mightshould at 3:17 PM on January 19

Guys I'm in such a deep hole of history of men's ware links right now, it's wonderful.
posted by The Whelk at 3:29 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

...I really want to see this essay.
posted by dogheart at 3:38 PM on January 19

I am really excited by this season two trailer!

Bryan Fuller has an epic seven season plan for the show.

Now all he needs is to get the rights to use Clarice Starling and Jame Gumb from MGM and everything will be perfect. (MGM is stupidly holding onto their Clarice rights to make The Clarice Starling Show - a show that wouldn't have the rights to use Hannibal Lecter, so what's the point?)
posted by crossoverman at 3:41 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

Fuller has said that even if they have to use Schmlice Marling the character is going to be used.
posted by The Whelk at 3:46 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

Hi, I'm Special Agent Clarissa Lark.
posted by Justinian at 4:23 PM on January 19 [9 favorites]

Perhaps the Clarice Starling Show is going to mark a return to the weekly variety show with sketch comedy, musical numbers and fun for the whole family.
But you know, with sociopaths.
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:40 PM on January 19 [7 favorites]

You guys there is a Tumblr of Hannibal's Ties.
This is my favorite Hannibal outfit: Paisley with the plaid suit.
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:52 PM on January 19 [3 favorites]

Schmlice Marling

Shades of Herlock Sholmes
posted by Greg Nog at 4:54 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]

Also that one time me and tel3path wrote an Ask Metafilter/Hannibal crossover
posted by The Whelk at 5:48 PM on January 19 [6 favorites]

Shades of Herlock Sholmes

You have no idea how much it delights me that someone really wrote a story starring Herlock Sholmes
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 6:31 PM on January 19

Serious question: How long until someone does a fan trailer that casts the show as a romcom and leans heavily on Ace Of Bass - I Saw The Sign?
posted by sparkletone at 7:30 PM on January 19 [1 favorite] looks like there's a split second shot in the trailer of a clearly drugged and intubated Will.

posted by griphus at 7:35 PM on January 19

I prefer my Lecter written by Harris, though it's been a while since I read those.

Memory, Agent Starling, is what I have instead of a television.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:06 PM on January 19

I just hope, for the rest of you, that there are plenty of scenes where Will Graham blinks tightly because he has a bad headache.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:09 PM on January 19


i've seen it like half a dozen times in tumblr gifsets already
posted by elizardbits at 8:16 PM on January 19

exhibit a
posted by elizardbits at 8:18 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]

Augh I'm late to this part but I'm still really excited!
posted by FirstMateKate at 8:22 PM on January 19

I prefer my Lecter written by Harris, though it's been a while since I read those.

After the awful book named Hannibal, Harris lost me. I still love Red Dragon and Silence of the Lambs but I now prefer my Hannibal as written by Bryan Fuller.
posted by crossoverman at 8:43 PM on January 19 [6 favorites]

Seriously this is my favorite Hannibal after Manhunter.

How long until someone does a fan trailer that casts the show as a romcom and leans heavily on Ace Of Bass - I Saw The Sign?

posted by The Whelk at 8:57 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]


I resisted watching it for WEEKS until my mom and a friend were basically like, "Watch it or we'll eat you" and I watched all the episodes online until I was caught up (6 episodes, maybe?) and I LOVED it. I just thought the premise sounded so DUMB and I really love Red Dragon and Silence of the Lambs, book and film, and was sort of protective of the source material. But Hannibal is SO well-done (...) and rarely makes a misstep and I love that it's got a pretty diverse cast of awesome actors.

And I want Alanna's entire wardrobe of wrap dresses and boots, please.
posted by Aquifer at 9:27 PM on January 19

when I made one of the recipes on the show
posted by The Whelk at 9:34 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]


A friend of mine said that he read somewhere that Bryan Fuller dropped the hint that the initial murder that kicks off the series will actually turn out to be the work of Francis Dolarhyde perfecting his MO. I thought about that and realized that while the murder is a way to introduce to our players, it is never solved. I hope it's true.
posted by Kitteh at 6:35 AM on January 20 [1 favorite]

Trailer was fantastic and did far more to me than I expected. I can't remember the last time I regularly watched a television show when it aired. It's exciting!

We recently watched Silence of the Lambs as a warm-up; I hadn't see it since the 90s. And thanks to the talk of Amazon Prime here I have realized that I can stream Hannibal and Hannibal Rising, neither of which I have seen.

I'm also going to go back to listening to the music from the show because, really, it is the best.
posted by mountmccabe at 6:44 AM on January 20

Hannibal (the film) is okay, but I suggest you continue not seeing Hannibal Rising. That movie really does nothing good for anyone involved.
posted by griphus at 6:47 AM on January 20

Bryan Fuller dropped the hint that the initial murder that kicks off the series will actually turn out to be the work of Francis Dolarhyde perfecting his MO.

This is the in the commentary track for the pilot - the very first case we see is Dolarhyde but-they-don't-know-it's-him-yet.
posted by The Whelk at 7:39 AM on January 20

I don't listen to commentary tracks so I didn't know this.
posted by Kitteh at 7:41 AM on January 20

The season one commentary tracks are seriously good, they lay out the entire plan for the season and series, get into fun technical detail and basically are the biggest Harris fanboys in the world.

Plus they basically say "Hannibal-as-Dracula " was the plan all along and that my first thought watching it and it's fun to be validated.
posted by The Whelk at 7:46 AM on January 20

We don't have commentary tracks on the UK DVDs, but you can tell the first case is Dolarhyde.

He'll have had plenty of time to practice while the FBI's finest mind boils in its shell like an egg and then its owner gets clapped in jail. Hannibal's gifts just keep on giving.
posted by tel3path at 9:01 AM on January 20

Regardless, confirmation of this has got me insanely excited!
posted by Kitteh at 9:06 AM on January 20

Did you make enough of those Huevos High Life for the rest of the class, Whelk? No? You know what happens to rude people...
posted by Justinian at 10:49 AM on January 20

Here, have some tea.
posted by The Whelk at 10:58 AM on January 20

This show is equally as good as Adventure Time and its exact opposite

C'mon, grab your flannel, we'll go to many gruesome crime scenes, with Will the Empath and Hannibal the Cannibal, the psychological torment will never end, it's Murder Time.
posted by The Whelk at 11:13 AM on January 20 [1 favorite]

Exactly. I kind of want a reveal that from Hannibal's point of view he's Jake and Will is Finn.
posted by neuromodulator at 11:37 AM on January 20

Dinner Time
posted by The Whelk at 11:45 AM on January 20

I have also not heard the episode commentary tracks and am confused. My questions and the answers may include spoilers for the first season.

What murder is supposed to have been committed by Dolarhyde? The first case of the TV series was Hobbs. There was a copycat but how does it make sense that that was Dolarhyde and not, well [spoiler].
posted by mountmccabe at 1:58 PM on January 20

The opening scene, Mrs Marlow.
posted by tel3path at 2:14 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]

I just imagined the Feed Me number from little shop of horrors being sung by the Hannibal cast is this what going mad feels like
posted by The Whelk at 2:16 PM on January 20

Man oh man, if it's true that it all goes to hell for Hannibal over two weeks... And Will is influencing this to happen from inside the jail... It kinda makes Will seem like the one you should be too scared to visit in prison in case he ends up running around inside your head.

Because if Hannibal can get you killed or disfigured from behind bars, Will can probably destroy your soul remotely from inside a lead-lined coffin buried six feet underground.

I mean think about it tho. In the novels, Hannibal is portrayed as this radioactive waste-like creature who can cause severe psychological damage to anyone with but a few minutes' interaction. In the shows, it takes him (usually, unless he has other information) months and months of intimate knowledge of a person to really fuck their head up good and proper. And yet socially excluded Will, that nobody takes seriously, nobody has any evidentiary reason to take seriously, everybody always thought was two sandwiches short of a picnic and a serial killer waiting to happen, *seriously fucks Hannibal's shit up in two. Weeks.*

And was that, in the trailer, Jack taking Will's accusations seriously? Because I like that. Jack has a lot of faults, but he is not the utter irredeemable asshole that we often think he is.

Hope he gets out of that cellar tho.
posted by tel3path at 2:36 PM on January 20 [2 favorites]

Imagine Hannibal, the most content little spider in the web, having his living space fucked with.

Fucking with those fussy little herb planters would probobly hurt more than shooting him in the leg.
posted by The Whelk at 2:53 PM on January 20 [3 favorites]

Alana's not noticing the tomato roses, and dumping carrots over them, shows that she is sometimes unperceptive about Hannibal.

You can practically see him pouting "fine i was looking at you while i made these but i was thinking of will because *he* gets me."

He does.
posted by tel3path at 3:47 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]

It just hit me how Alana is going to feel when this all shakes out.

I'd be surprised if she could even look at Jack or Will again
posted by The Whelk at 3:54 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]

Hannibal is portrayed as this radioactive waste-like creature who can cause severe psychological damage to anyone with but a few minutes' interaction. In the shows, it takes him (usually, unless he has other information) months and months of intimate knowledge of a person to really fuck their head up good and proper.

Have not seen the series but have read all the books multiple times, and I am one of the three people who actually liked Hannibal, so...

If you have certain vulnearabilities -- and many of us do -- he can fuck up your shit with a few comments. However, he doesn't make a habit of this because there is no art to it. Going straight for the kill like that is like gulping a glass of $300 wine or eating your victim as a fast food hamburger. The idea is to savor the power and the transition he is effecting so that his effort isn't wasted. A major theme is that Lecter's jones is transformation. He doesn't necessarily want you dead, although for most people becoming a fine meal is an improvement. If he can do something more artful like drive you mad, or even better force someone with unrealised potential to raise their game, that is the best meal of all.

In SOTL he destroys the semen-flinging cell neighbor to demonstrate his sense of courtesy to Starling. Other victims he strung along for months or even years as he wrung them dry of interesting reactions and new knowledge, until their only remaining potential contribution was to dinner.

Will, however, has no such aesthetic; his training is to stop the people he is modeling as quickly and effectively as possible before they can do more damage. This is the only mode he knows because his own efforts disgust him, and he has no desire to savor the chase or kill at all.
posted by localroger at 4:11 PM on January 20 [3 favorites]

Oh good. Last year Person of Interest, Elementary and Hannibal were all on on the same night, and now when I watch the others I'm always bummed out that I can't switch to Hannibal. I'm looking forward to this.
posted by homunculus at 4:28 PM on January 20

In the meantime, I'm quickly getting hooked on True Detective, which shares Hannibal's love of antlers.
posted by homunculus at 4:42 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]

The most (and least) realistic movie psychopaths ever
posted by homunculus at 4:42 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]

Oh the show is totally into the idea of transformation, and Hanmibal's vampire-like desire to reproduce by making people Just Like Him ( cause it!s obvious the best, in his own mind) I just hope that even if we get to Schmarlice Marling she's not converted via corpses and basements.

And I like how the motif of Hannibal trying to create peers and failing to do so informs the later planned storyline of Clarice. Like I'm exciting about what they're doing cause its going to make the future storylines SO MUCH RICHER.
posted by The Whelk at 5:26 PM on January 20 [3 favorites]

Yes, there is so much foreshadowing in the series - based on stuff everybody knows, especially from Silence of the Lambs - that it will be a real shame if it can't be Starling. I love the idea that the show is having a conversation with all the different versions of the Lecter story that have come before - and this time it's trying to put them all together in a single seven-year story. I really need this to happen.

Silence of the Lambs is one of my favourite movies ever, but I'd love to see it redone as season five of Hannibal.
posted by crossoverman at 5:54 PM on January 20

Here's a bit about Mads's recent film The Hunt which is nominated for Best Foreign Language film this year:

'The Hunt' Turns 'Enormous Love' To Fear, Hate

Mads Mikkelsen Talks 'The Hunt'
posted by homunculus at 7:04 PM on January 20

And I like how the motif of Hannibal trying to create peers and failing to do so informs the later planned storyline of Clarice.

This, of course, plugs in perfectly to the conclusion of the novel Hannibal (you remember the one EVERYONE FUCKING HATED) where Clarice is seduced into joining Hannibal in his transformative state of demigodhood.

I thought it was perfect, really the only dramatically satisfying way to conclude things. Mayhaps the folks behind the series agree.
posted by localroger at 7:10 PM on January 20

I thought it was perfect, really the only dramatically satisfying way to conclude things. Mayhaps the folks behind the series agree.

I'm pretty sure that with Hannibal (the book) being season six of Hannibal (the series) and Fuller having a seventh season planned, it will be to fix that terrible, terrible ending to the book ;)

I can only imagine what Will Graham will be up to at that point.
posted by crossoverman at 8:06 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]

Hoping we get to see the entire planned arc for Hannibal is like hoping to see the last book of A Song of Ice and Fire. You're setting yourself up for massive disappointment when it doesn't happen.

As much as I love the show I was surprised it even got a second season. Yeah, yeah, foreign rights blah blah. You still need at least a few people to watch your show here in America.
posted by Justinian at 8:55 PM on January 20

homunculus, thanks for that link, which was more interesting than I expected.

The first comment points out the failure to take into account class in deciding what is or isn't a "realistic" psychopath and uses the examples of Gilles de Rais, Countess Elizabeth Bathory, Vlad the Impaler, and more recently H. H. Holmes as serial-killin' psychopaths who had sufficient wealth and resources to just get away with stuff.

This commenter makes a really important point. Of all those, Vlad the Impaler is the one who doesn't really count... from what I understand, he was more of a typical medieval monarch than a serial killer, and the ruling classes have historically been more like The Sopranos or Game Of Thrones than The Waltons anyway. The others, though, are spot on in a similar category to Hannibal Lecter.

Let's not forget that Lecter is an aristocrat. If an aristocrat gets to thinking of the mass of humanity as mere pigs, food sources - the only surprise should be that he gets as literal about it as Hannibal does. It's striking how few people in Lecter's social circle comment out loud about how wealthy he is - I think few of them fully understand that he's not just loaded, he's *really* loaded. Like, really, really.

What is unrealistic, and the article is right about this, is that Lecter is just improbably, MarySue-istically, good at stuff. Maybe a "successful" psychopath manages not to be as outwardly chaotic as the kind that gets arrested, but there's no way Lecter can be a master chef and a fighter whose hands are lethal weapons and fluent in Japanese and Finno-Ugrian languages and has memorized Marcus Aurelius and a fine artist and a surgeon and a psychiatrist and an astronaut and a ballerina.

An actual psychopath might have the self-image of someone who was that good, though.

I think a good denouement to the whole series would be along the lines of "it was all a dream!" except the dream is Hannibal Lecter's fantasy of himself as Hannibal Lecter(TM). And he turns out to, in reality, be some sort of small, weedy man that can whip up a decent omelette and has a surprisingly okay command of Japanese and probably quite a few belts in some martial art or other, but was (all along) never even qualified as a doctor, was practising psychiatry without a license, and totally fabricated his past as an ER surgeon.
posted by tel3path at 11:16 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]

Crossoverman: "I'm pretty sure that with Hannibal (the book) being season six of Hannibal (the series) and Fuller having a seventh season planned, it will be to fix that terrible, terrible ending to the book ;)

"I can only imagine what Will Graham will be up to at that point."

What will happen is, Clarice and Hannibal make one smug, obnoxious Facebook post too many and Graham, purely under his own steam and with no external means of locomotion, his only power supply the collective indignation of all of Clannibal's Facebook friends, blazes his way down to Argentina and substitutes the entire contents of their pantry with Kraft macaroni and cheese.
posted by tel3path at 11:21 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]

I seem to remember Alana is alive at the end of s2, but I could be wrong about that. I can't rid myself of the idea that she's going to die.

The first officer that saw his basement had to retire from the force... that could be her. Or maybe the one that's in a private nursing home.

I knew it was bad foreshadowing when she was reading "A Good Man is Hard to Find" to Abigail in a coma. I also think it's an example of how Alana can be a bit unperceptive sometimes.

I had this horrible thought this morning... the character death that Fuller cried over... bet you it's Winston. Dammit.
posted by tel3path at 11:24 PM on January 20

tel3path, I believe Fuller has said that nothing bad will happen to the dogs as long as he is on the show.
posted by dogheart at 12:31 AM on January 21


I mean, *some* things are *extreme*.

It just worried me to see those plates with the food arranged in what looked like dog pawprints...
posted by tel3path at 12:33 AM on January 21

Ohnoes they said Hannibal and Alana are going to start "working" together in scare quotes... I knew it.
posted by tel3path at 1:31 AM on January 21

I'm pretty sure that with Hannibal (the book) being season six of Hannibal (the series) and Fuller having a seventh season planned, it will be to fix that terrible, terrible ending to the book ;)

I can only imagine what Will Graham will be up to at that point.

Well if the whole enterprise was launched by a gushing crush on Thomas Harris' writing, I can't see them changing the capstone of the story.

Remember how Francis Dolarhyde was so obsessed with Blake's Great Red Dragon and the Woman Clothed with the Sun? Dolarhyde's obsession -- which Lecter encouraged -- was to become the Great Red Dragon. Lecter liked this, calling Dolarhyde his "pilgrim," because Dolarhyde was undergoing a transformation.

Similarly, Lecter had contempt for Jame Gumb and sells him out because Gumb is comfortable with what he is and isn't transforming; instead of becoming a girl (which was a possibility, as Lecter reminds Starling, but he only thought he wanted it) he makes a girl suit so he can pretend he's transforming. Lecter would consider this lame.

I also don't think Harris originally envisioned the third book being about Starling, just as SOTL hardly mentions Graham. Her story is nicely wrapped up at the end of SOTL, and she would probably have been succeeded by a new character who would shoot the gap between her arc and Graham's and actually transform.

But the whole world spoke and Hannibal had to feature Clarice. Not that Harris is ever a fast writer, it took even longer than usual for him to come up with Hannibal, which also suggests a mid-course correction.

So being the object of Lecter's attention in Hannibal, Clarice had to transform. And what she transforms into is the Woman Clothed with the Sun, an appropriate companion for Lecter who could appreciate Dolarhyde's aspiration so well because he is already the Great Red Dragon himself.

Which, incidentally, makes Mikkelson's interpretation of Hannibal really work for me. You say Satan, I say Great Red Dragon, we can probably both look on Blake's prints and see what we're saying.

As for Graham, where he is at the end is retired. He did not transform, and so after just a handful of mentions in SOTL he exits the story completely by Hannibal.
posted by localroger at 5:24 AM on January 21 [5 favorites]

Yeah, well, I want Graham to hunt their smug asses down in Argentina and put a stop to them, is what I want for an ending.

This is happening even if I have to buy a whole houseful of DVDs and immolate myself in front of NBC's office to get us to the seventh season.
posted by tel3path at 5:49 AM on January 21

Localroger, I really love that interpretation. I still hate what it does to Clarice as a character, but if the series is headed in that direction, so be it. I still think the seventh season will be - as tel3path says - Will Graham coming out of retirement and hunting them down.

Well if the whole enterprise was launched by a gushing crush on Thomas Harris' writing, I can't see them changing the capstone of the story.

Fuller has said, as much as he likes Harris' writing, he thinks there was missteps with Hannibal - and writes off Hannibal Rising completely. So it will be interesting to see what he changes.

I think the film version of Hannibal is better than the novel, so I'm hoping the Season 6 version of Hannibal improves on the premise again.
posted by crossoverman at 12:07 PM on January 21 [1 favorite]

My tailor totally agrees with my costuming theories about this show so it looks like I'll actually be writing this thing.
posted by The Whelk at 12:18 PM on January 21 [4 favorites]

Personally I hope season 7 is just Hannibal showing up on other shows and eating the cast.
posted by neuromodulator at 2:48 PM on January 21 [7 favorites]

Funny you should say that because I've always contended that any Sherlock crossover would be extremely short-lived.
posted by tel3path at 2:52 PM on January 21 [1 favorite]

Yes please. The first episode of season 3 was absolutely terrible. Sherlock and John should get their just deserts by becoming Hannibal's dessert.
posted by homunculus at 3:06 PM on January 21

The new Doctor needs to consult with a different type of doctor in a particularly gruesome new adventure.
posted by The Whelk at 3:13 PM on January 21

Hannibal and Vastra could swap recipes.
posted by homunculus at 3:53 PM on January 21 [1 favorite]

Localroger, I really love that interpretation.

crossoverman, you might like a much richer writeup I did on this back when a certain other discussion site hadn't melted down into a heap of trolly slag: Hannibal Lecter: Transhumanist Icon.

The idea that Hannibal was a kind of ascended demigod was already visible in SOTL and my wife made the comment that he could be interpreted as a shamanistic figure. This seems to be the direction Harris decided to go with Hannibal. I would say that the flaws in Hannibal (and I'd admit there are some, though not the ending) and the total implosion of Hannibal Rising had a lot to do with Harris overthinking and overportraying something that should always be at best a mystery to us mortals.

Anyway even if Will Graham does come back and hunt them down it would be a crime to omit the single best favorite line of dialog I have ever read in any novel ever, "Ask me if I sound like Oliver Twist when I ask for more!."
posted by localroger at 5:21 PM on January 21 [3 favorites]

Localroger, I really appreciated reading the full write-up. And I think you've really nailed the subtext there, but it's reminded me of all the laughable moments from Harris' Hannibal novel - the martini of tears, the bones of Clarice's father and that line you quote about Oliver Twist. I want the show to get to season six just to see if Fuller can make this work - or make it better.

I mean, I dislike the dismantling of the Starling character. But if there's some way that Fuller's seventh season fixes that or redeems her - or the series earns that better than the novel does, I'll be more okay with it.
posted by crossoverman at 9:24 PM on January 21 [1 favorite]

I'm pretty much SHOVING Starling in Fuller's hands going "can you just like, make this work? please? Do the thing? I trust you. You get it. Just, fix it."

while muttering to myself "This means Will is in a character and he needs to find them in argentina and stop them"
posted by The Whelk at 9:28 PM on January 21 [1 favorite]

Yes, I agree that Leçter gets more and more transcendently supernatural with every book and localroger, I'll be checking out your link as soon as I have time to savor it.

The issue I have is simply that Hannibal the book is so ludicrous, horribly written, and corrupt. It was so badly written I literally threw it away. Lecter's monkeying around with all kinds of Mephistophelean shadow-puppeteering just comes across as a bunch of failed pickup artistry, I mean, if he's that fabulous he should be able to get girls without drugs and hypnosis. I am also really angered by the book's fudging its philosophy about whether Starling is there of her own free will or not, as it tries to have it both ways. The only way the described scenario makes sense is if you read it like a rapist simultaneously boasting about and sugarcoating his crimes. It combines silly and offensive while diminishing neither.

There is a piece of Hannigram fanfic that retells a similar story with Hannibal and Will, in which Hannibal does succeed in getting Will over to the dark side. It's called "And The Stars Are Exploding In Your Eyes," by Hito. In this story, nothing has been sugarcoated and there is no coyness about where anybody stands. It's unflinching and horrifying in a way that the Hannibal book is not. This storyline can be told and told well, and as much as I don't like seeing
Will going over to the dark side, his character only gets violated by another character - not by the author. Big difference.

So a real tour de force would be if Fuller could retell the Hannibal book/movie and get me to suspend my disbelief over all the shenanigans therein. Of course what I'd like most of all is for the Clarice character to clap him back in jail while explaining, with insulting amounts of condescending patience, that she is not into him so he can stop sending her weird soap. But I agree that that wouldn't be very narratively satisfying so if Fuller can make something good out of this trumpery, I'll be ever grateful.

But then after that we have to have a final season where Will looms up in Buenos Aires and takes them both down for 110 counts of self-important vaguebooking and excessive humblebragging about their relationship. Will's always had this "Christlike" look about him, he's now in jail for the sins of the rest of the cast, and there are images in the trailer that directly compare him to certain images of Christ so, obviously, the story *has* to end with the Second Coming of Will and the annihilation of Hannibal. Of course Hannibal himself thinks otherwise, but he would wouldn't he.
posted by tel3path at 1:15 AM on January 22 [1 favorite]

Hannibal the book was pretty damn bad. I absolutely didn't care about any of the characters. And yet, the dinner with Krendler kept me awake all night for at least two nights. So it's not without merit (unlike the film).

I want very much to see a season seven that is as good as season one.
posted by infinitewindow at 2:15 AM on January 22

Oh it definitely has its merits. For one thing, it was the first description of cannibalism that made it sound like it would taste good. That is not an easy thing to pull off.

From what I understand, DVD sales will help drive us forward to the next season (which we should already be planning our campaign for) and I heard Nielsen is taking tweets into account now as well. We hordes of screaming Fannibals need to do our bit.
posted by tel3path at 2:22 AM on January 22 [1 favorite]

Hey localroger, insightful article! Thanks for that.

I definitely agree that the Harris version of Hannibal is "transhumanist" in the way you describe. That's a major part of what eventually pissed me off about him, though.

Fuller's Hannibal is clearly portrayed as, and explicitly stated (by his therapist) to be a mere facsimile of a human. It is *not* implied that, when he wears his "person suit", he is dressing down. Bedelia is making a clear statement about Hannibal's inadequacy. Will describes him in book as well as TV canon as a "pitiful" creature of the kind that should have been left to die at birth, and unlike in book canon I don't think Will is going to disappear from sight and take this viewpoint with him.

Furthermore, it's only *after* a lengthy display of Hannibal Is Better Than You that we learn that his own therapist sees him the way he sees Franklyn, and not only that but a good deal of Hannibal's outward presentation is copied from her, not inspired by, but copied from. We don't know how much of this "always classy, never trashy" persona he's going to retain in the future.

And the kicker, of course, is that instead of being heavily cited on the topic of surgical addiction as he was in the books (yup, transformation) the TV Hannibal's main publications are on *social exclusion*. He is placed in a chiasmus with Will, who really is a genuinely impressive person, who gets scapegoated for every iota of dysfunction emanating from anyone for miles around, and is (at this point in the story) utterly put to shame as someone completely unfit for society. That Biblical command to "fear reputation" comes to mind.

What's really impressive about TV Hannibal is that he's captivating, and an utter dick who is pretty much unanimously hated by his biggest fans, none of whom think he's misunderstood and all of whom think he's genuinely a straight-up terrible, horrible, no good very bad person indulging in bad, unhappiness-inducing evil with no excuse. This *even as* he is motivated by genuine emotion such as he experiences it. His audience is charmed, but not fooled. That's... Really hard to pull off, especially in such extremes. I almost don't blame Harris for not managing it, after all, he created what's got to be the most memorable villain in 20th-century literature, she said contentiously, trying to remember if she's read any other 20th-century literature and what it was about.

But I just, like, screw this Draco in leather pants business, I like my Hannibal straight-up and 100-proof. The Campaign for Real Hannibal supports this show.
posted by tel3path at 3:05 PM on January 22 [2 favorites]

I prefer my Hannibal to be as unknowable and inexplicable as possible. He's an alien from Planet Europe, an actual vampire, not the supercharged dreamboat idols we get now. The less human he is, the better.
posted by The Whelk at 3:39 PM on January 22 [1 favorite]

Starling at Sunset

Starlings at Sunset
posted by homunculus at 10:19 AM on January 23

The Whelk: "I prefer my Hannibal to be as unknowable and inexplicable as possible. He's an alien from Planet Europe, an actual vampire, not the supercharged dreamboat idols we get now. The less human he is, the better."

You just made me realize that this Hannibal and Anton Chigurh are, if not spiritual siblings, at least spiritual second cousins.
posted by invitapriore at 11:19 AM on January 23

big hollow cheeks, always a warning sign.
posted by The Whelk at 11:21 AM on January 23

Hmmm I'm trolling all these Hannibal Metas to make sure I'm not repeating what everyone else seems to be saying - this essay may have just got like 50% shorter.
posted by The Whelk at 11:29 AM on January 23

posted by The Whelk at 11:51 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]

that Franklyn is a cheap copy of Hannibal right down to his vests
posted by The Whelk at 11:52 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]

Also I was going to mention how much of a Mortician Hannibal looks like when talking to Bella given that he normally eschews black for eye-popping patterns and secondary colors.
posted by The Whelk at 11:54 AM on January 23

Hannibal and Hunting attire
posted by The Whelk at 11:55 AM on January 23

posted by The Whelk at 11:59 AM on January 23

I hadn't noticed this and now it's freaking me out
posted by The Whelk at 12:14 PM on January 23 [4 favorites]


The Whelk, I am freaked out.
You know what, I always think that what they show us could be other than it appears... We think we know the season 2 story from the trailer and he's gonna pull the rug out from under us again...

posted by tel3path at 12:35 PM on January 23

posted by The Whelk at 12:41 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]

Wow, I had not noticed the consistent reptilian motif with Alana's clothes! I love this doomed show so much!
posted by Justinian at 12:53 PM on January 23




posted by tel3path at 1:02 PM on January 23

posted by The Whelk at 1:03 PM on January 23

Oh. My. Fuck.

I mean, what if Alana were fooling us the way Hannibal was fooling everyone else?


What if she were fooling Hannibal too?

Ajskhdfkjrshgkugrhssailbgrkureh the possibilities are endless.

It's just like Titanic, we know the boat sinks at the end but...
posted by tel3path at 1:13 PM on January 23

What about simply this, if Alana's a snake in the grass:

What if she simply knows about Hannibal and is keeping quiet about it? So much so that even he doesn't know she knows?
posted by tel3path at 1:56 PM on January 23

...Hmm okay what does Hannibal get by having Alana close, he goes out of his way to make her feel included and safe and how could she use that against him?

I for one, thinking that red = moral/ethical murkiness and this show's overarching theme is professional vs. personal boundaries, I think it stands that Dr. Bloom is going to push or break some boundires in an awful way that's being done for the right reasons.

And then when she finds out the WHOLE TRUTH, she's moving to a shack in Alaska and eating nothing but lichen for the rest of her days.
posted by The Whelk at 2:19 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

Yeah probably. But with this show anything is possible.

She seems to be wearing a leaf-patterned scarf in the trailer. The promo pics show her wearing green. Theme change?
posted by tel3path at 2:37 PM on January 23

Green but still really...scale-like. I have no idea where this is going and I love it.
posted by The Whelk at 2:43 PM on January 23

And then when she finds out the WHOLE TRUTH, she's moving to a shack in Alaska

Where she meets Dexter, leading to leading to another crossover.
posted by homunculus at 2:46 PM on January 23

Finally back from trip. On the subject of Hannibal the novel, I seriously beleive Harris intended something very different after finishing SOTL. SOTL introduced a new protagonist and almost completely abaondoned Will. I expect the plan was to make Hannibal the target, but introduce a new investigator who would be a more believable adversary, and Mason Verger would not have been a character.

But you have to believe that after the SOTL movie his publisher and Hollywood people were pushing him very hard to give them more Starling. I suspect a lot of what irks people about Hannibal can be put down to "OK, you want a story about Starling I'll make her the investigator this time, BUT BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR."

I tend to think the new investigator might have been named Krendler and the reason he hates Starling so much is that she usurped his role in the story.
posted by localroger at 3:39 PM on January 23

Harris had his characters basically taken captive and told if he didn't put in more Hannibal /Starling they'd find someone who would.
posted by The Whelk at 3:46 PM on January 23

Also apparently we're back to belivng Abigail is alive? Based on some comments in the tumblywebs- everyone in the cast and crew bet cagey about Abigail and not using her name leading them to believe Abigail will come back but under an assumed indemnity? So they can say "Abigail" is dead but she is intact, living as someone else?

posted by The Whelk at 3:48 PM on January 23

Also apparently we're back to belivng Abigail is alive apparently?

Citation? I don't believe this for a moment, particularly after many blatant comments from Fuller that she's the veal Hannibal serves.

I totally believe that the character will show up in flashbacks or Will's hallucinations/nightmares/whatever, but there's no fucking way Hannibal let her live. It would seriously undercut a huge part of the arc of the first season.
posted by sparkletone at 3:51 PM on January 23

The case for an alive Abigal.

I don't think it would undercut his arc, Abigail always felt like a side project, a way to get to Will, but more long term " what if?" thinking what if she shows up a season under all " I was alive the whole time buwahahahaha!"

Also I just kind of really want her to be alive SOMEHOW. But that's me.
posted by The Whelk at 3:56 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

Also just got my first 3 episode DVD from the red envelope place. Possibly worth considering based on what has been said about the 7-year arc, Verger (if he's going to be in this version) and Gumb are probably Lecter's clients right now or will be very soon.
posted by localroger at 3:57 PM on January 23

From this interview...

IGN: That was a delicious Abigail dinner that Bedelia and Hannibal were having?

Fuller: Well, that’s definitely the message, is that Hannibal was feeding Bedelia -- because it’s tete de veau, which is head of veal. And he talks about veal in the conversation, and that’s all very much -- not so veiled for the audience, but a veiled conversation about who exactly they’re eating.

IGN: So rest in peace Abigail, basically?

Fuller: [Laughs] Right!

This isn't the only such comment he's made regarding this, but it's the first I could find. There have been quite a few.
posted by sparkletone at 3:58 PM on January 23

Verger's sister has been cast so I bet we're gonna see him, he would be Hannibal's patient during this time.
posted by The Whelk at 3:58 PM on January 23

Harris had his characters basically taken captive and told if he didn't put in more Hannibal /Starling they'd find someone who would.

What kills me about this being the way things turned out is that writing's never been an easy thing for Harris, somewhat famously. I can't even imagine taking a writer who already struggles to produce work he likes and then putting that kind of gun to his end.

I don't think it would undercut his arc, Abigail always felt like a side project, a way to get to Will, but more long term " what if?" thinking what if she shows up a season under all " I was alive the whole time buwahahahaha!"

I dunno. Both this and the counter-arguments presented in that discussion link feel like such wishful thinking to me. Yes, Fuller's given wishy-washy answers a few times, but I just don't find any of that person's objections to Abigail particularly convincing.

Which don't get me wrong, I found her eventual demise as horrifying as its intended to be, and that's not the outcome I hoped for for that character, but ... Nah. She's toast (or rather veal, and maybe eventually who knows what else). He couldn't reasonably let her live without ruining the game for him, so he killed her.

The discussion goes into further points about that, but I do want to underline that I particularly liked that he used her for a very, very special meal. That Bedelia has come to his house to eat his cooking is a Big Deal to Hannibal. So instead of serving her the rude trash he normally serves guests, he serves her someone that was very special to him. Very touching in his fucked up Hannibal way!
posted by sparkletone at 4:11 PM on January 23

Plus the whole " it's not murder cause we used parts of her" thing.

And supporting my theory, when Belida open the door to find Hannibal holding rolled "veal" she's wearing the brightest, boldest red we've ever seen on the show.
posted by The Whelk at 4:14 PM on January 23

What kills me about this being the way things turned out is that writing's never been an easy thing for Harris, somewhat famously. I can't even imagine taking a writer who already struggles to produce work he likes and then putting that kind of gun to his end.

As I pointed out in the K5 essay I linked above, it took Harris longer to write Hannibal than any other book he's ever produced, including as it would turn out Hannibal Rising which was only a gleam in his eye when I wrote that essay.

I am convinced that Harris put in at least a few years of work on something totally different than Hannibal, and there is a distinct whiff of Fuck You about how he executed the final result. There is, after all, no hint at all at the end of SOTL that Clarice's life is heading for the train wreck with which Hannibal opens. Perhaps the madmen most responsible for throwing Clarice into Hannibal's tender embrace are ... us.
posted by localroger at 6:38 PM on January 23

Perhaps the madmen most responsible for throwing Clarice into Hannibal's tender embrace are ... us.

Well, Hollywood, since I feel sure Hannibal was written with the film adaptation in mind. Ditto Hannibal Rising.
posted by crossoverman at 6:56 PM on January 23

I feel sure Hannibal was written with the film adaptation in mind

Well, I am very sure Hannibal was written to make the film adaptation as difficult as possible while being within the parameters of what had been demanded.
posted by localroger at 7:17 PM on January 23

Well that just makes Thomas Harris a dick.
posted by crossoverman at 7:28 PM on January 23

Well that just makes Thomas Harris a dick.

Thomas Harris started out his literary career by brainstorming a way for a lone terrorist to kill everyone in attendance at the Super Bowl. So what exactly is your point?
posted by localroger at 8:00 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]

Under any conditions I can't imagine Bedelia is long for this world.

Supposing that last scene is as it appears, and he has succeeded in coercing Bedelia to play at being friends with him.

First, she can only playact for so long. Longer than someone who isn't a psychiatrist, longer than someone who isn't Hannibal's psychiatrist, but there'll be a life-or-death situation soon enough. Bedelia will have to hopelessly compromise herself in order to survive, but in that case, I still don't see her making a go of it as a reluctant Bonnie to his Clyde. So she'll probably make a doomed attempt to escape/bust up Hannibal's operation/whatever, and of course get very killed.

But in any case, she knows too much and she does not want to be his BFF, so her life expectancy has gotta be short.
posted by tel3path at 12:10 AM on January 24

Nobody messes with Scully, you take that back.
posted by Justinian at 1:08 AM on January 24

Bedelia sure is the only one with a grip on reality, I'll give her that. She talks right up to the limits of what she knows and no further.

Will is more fanciful, he talks about what he knows but can't prove.

Oh what a perfect partnership that would be.
posted by tel3path at 3:20 AM on January 24

Okay having gorged like a tick on fan theories and official pronouncements, here I am to spread some speculation.

The Vergers are going to be more important, earlier. They will be the key to Hannibal's exposure cause, if you're trying to ret-con them into an earlier narrative it makes total sense.

Episode one is a flashfoward to Jack getting attacked in Hannibal's house, possibly having his own version of the Will Gets Gutted scene. Episodes 2-7 will spend time split between Hannibal getting cocky and oversure and Will boiling away in confinement. Episode 8? He escapes and we're all shocked when he returns right to Hannibal's doorstep.

And he's all yes it worked I see the light let's be Murder Besties, all superior and above it all I Uuuuuunderstaaaand you.

And then Hannibal has his first friend ever. Season one mission accomplished.

Of course it's a ruse, but we're lead to much confusion on how much of a ruse it is what with all the psychological shifting of personas going. I'm 90% sure Hannibal is going to make Will kill Dr. Gideon as a show of loyalty, or maybe even someone else.

But now Hannibal has everything he's ever wanted. He's a trusted FBI source, a pillar of the community who has literally gotten away with murder multiple times now and has his own pet empath who can't go outside. He's going to be an insufferable, gloating, bag of hubris and ...prone to mistake.

This is where the Vergers come in. Mason, Hannibal's perfect victim, one of the few to survive an encounter with him. Hannibal is going to chomping at the bit to humiliate the rich pedophile bastard.

And with Will by his side, he thinks he can do it.

And there's your conflict, Will is responsible for the horrible disfiguration and torture of a loathsome person in order to catch an even worse monster. Taking bets that Alana is somehow involved (or somehow figured it out ALL ALONG and never breaks poker face.)

And if Bedelia survives the finale I will be shocked (but I also want her to be like a double agent, playing both sides cause she's aware how much much more dangerous an overconfident, sloppy Hannibal is --which also sets up his more arrogant, king-in-exile attitude in SoTL, he really did once have everything he ever wanted and he would've gotten away with it too it wasn't for those meddling kids.)

(We're told we get three deaths this season, I think Bella and Gideon are a lock but ....I'm worried about Beverly.)
posted by The Whelk at 12:15 AM on January 25 [2 favorites]

(plus the whole Hannibal pretending to be totally into Mason's sadistic fantasies in order to get close enough to him to [REDACTED] would make a nice parallel with Will pretending that he wants to be Murder Pals in order to expose him)
posted by The Whelk at 12:21 AM on January 25 [2 favorites]

Oh yes I like that. Will will have to have been given the death sentence to be willing to engage in any of it and I have a hard time coping with the idea that he might commit murder to expose a murderer. I wonder if he'd get around it with a Dolarhyde-style fake-a-death staging. Bonus points if he does something like send Gideon out alive as a messenger. (We already have seen Gideon looking at Hannibal's antics and thinking "hang on, that's fucked up even by my standards.") (Gideon doesn't know his own identity, remember? He knows he's a killer, but that was his family. Meanwhile, he is a *doctor* and doctors are not supposed to hurt patients, right? He even took an oath, right? And as far as we know of Gideon's victims not one of them was a patient. I could totally see someone like Gideon having a nagging feeling of being bothered by Hannibal's hurting a patient, so much so that he couldn't hold it in no matter how inconsistent he thought it was with his identity as a killer.) (Also, having no identity of his own, Gideon is malleable by whoever's ruthless enough, so, that might have to be Will for a change.)

...anyway, I hope it goes right up to 11 with full-on, blood-caked Hannigram snogging such that the entire fan base goes catatonic with shock. (Also, Hannibal being shocked when Will eventually is like ha ha no cooties I never liked you I was faking it every time)

(And I hope that's why Alana pulls the gun, she's fine that the beer is people and all that, it's WHYA LOOKIN AT MY MAN, WHYA EVEN LOOKIN AT MY MAN? EITHER OF YOU? I AM CONFUSED YET ENRAGED I AM THE PROM QUEEN HERE NOT YOU)
posted by tel3path at 2:02 AM on January 25

Bonus points if we get Hannibal-acting-as-will (going to the Mind Palace in crime scenes) and Will-acting-as-Hannibal (being a manipulative smooth talker murder guy).

Although I liked the possible "out" for Will in that someone brutally kills someone (possibly Gideon? Maybe just attacks them? Oh Can it be Chilton!? You know he's running a snake-pit shop of horrors over there, so very deserving) but the point is Will takes the blame for it, so he can convince Hannibal he's embraced the Direstag (possibly convincing people by using his Mutant Powers to recreate the actual crime) without having to actually do it....yet.
posted by The Whelk at 2:10 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]


quickly followed by DAMN I WISH I'D THOUGHT OF THAT
posted by tel3path at 2:53 AM on January 25

You can use this clock to count down the minutes until the season starts.
posted by jeather at 11:35 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]

I recommend passing the time by watching True Detective. It's only two episodes in and it's pretty good so far.
posted by homunculus at 12:01 PM on January 25


It's very common for heads of wardrobe to visually link characters through clothing color and patterns. Hannibal's windowpane and stripped suits = Will's checks and flannel shirts. Alana is connected to no one, her wardrobe is distinct and noticeable.

Except in the early promo photos, where she's wearing green, a radical departure from her busy reds and violets.

The same green as Will's jumpsuit in the psych ward.
posted by The Whelk at 12:07 PM on January 25 [2 favorites]

I cannot tell you how badly I want y'all to be right about Alana. Shooting someone behind Hannibal, oh my god yes please. (Because, sadly, I think the alternative is that she's dead.)
posted by dogheart at 12:14 PM on January 25

Yeah but what if the person behind Hannibal is JACK???

Or WILL???

I don't think she'll die, because I think Hugh Dancy said she's alive at the end of S2, but I could be misremembering, and they can always change their minds too.

What I think could happen is, in Red Dragon, they say that one of the officers that discovered Lecter's basement quit the force and is running a motel (I don't think that's going to be Alana somehow, she's more likely to be running a Busy Professional Women's Dress Boutique). Of the people he killed "nine that we know of, two didn't die" one is on a respirator and another is in a private mental hospital. Now so far Lecter has killed loads more than nine people. But. I think it's entirely possible that the shock could be a complete Life Ruiner for Alana.

I mean, although Will's suffering is ultra-super-extreme, it is only on the ultra-super-extreme end of what he has been experiencing all his life. Everybody he comes into contact with thinks he is nutso, he has always had the sneaking suspicion that he's a serial killer waiting to happen and so do many other people, and just generally he's not respected or socially included. In response to his accusation Jack says he's either "delusional or a psychopath", not acknowledging the third possibility, which is that he's right. To be fair the evidence does point to Will and Jack does eventually investigate Hannibal, so props for that, but... Hannibal is inherently more credible because he's one of the Socially Included, whereas everyone has been treating Will like he's just a giant mess of a human being from the very beginning.

What worries me about Alana is that she is also one of the Socially Included. Of course, she may have a backstory that shows otherwise, but it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that she had always been one of the Socially Included. It's particularly painful for Will because for the first time, he allowed himself to have expectations of another person and was abandoned yet again - ultra-painful, but as a sad confirmation of what he already knew. He is suffering for another's crimes, but in one way or another he always does that. As horrendous as it is, at least he's been in training for this situation his whole life.

How is Alana going to cope when she finds out that not only was she totally wrong about Will the first time around, in not realising he was a serial killer until he'd killed five people - but then discovering that she was wrong about Will twice over, and has contributed to his being imprisoned for someone else's crimes, losing everything in the process (encephalitis costs money, being charged and tried for five counts of serial murder also costs money, it wouldn't surprise me if he were totally cleaned out financially by the whole thing). AND that she has been wrong about Lecter FOR YEARS. YEARS. That her friend was not her friend, and her mentor wasn't what she seemed. When you find out that someone has been deceiving you that much for that long, it's not like you always had a friend and he just now turned into a serial killer. It's that your friend was always a serial killer and all your good memories are null and void. And did I mention that it's your profession to spot and catch serial killers? Will only knew Lecter for a few months, what's your excuse Alana? Is that egg on your face I see? How can you hold your head up in the professional community knowing that you made a fundamental mistake of this magnitude? Of course it's not her fault, she was lied to for years on end by someone she trusted, and a situation becomes harder to read the closer you are to it - but all that logic is gonna be cold comfort to her.

Also, she has been drinking beer made out of Miriam Lass, a young woman who probably was her professional counterpart at the time. And she has eaten Hannibal's food goodness knows how many times. And has strongly considered sleeping with him - maybe will have done by the time we get to that scene. And and and. CONTAMINATION. UNCLEAN. How many Silkwood showers will she have to take before she realises it's futile?

Honestly, I think that the shattering of her known reality is the kind of thing that could easily break a person. I think she's going to be floating in space where there is no up or down, unable to find her arms and legs because they're disappearing into infinite darkness.

I think she could become a person who ends up in a mental hospital long-term, maybe develop anorexia as many members of Baltimore high society apparently did.

That is assuming we can take her at face value so far, more or less

I've been thinking over that link The Whelk put up, where Alana's clothing is observed to be reptilian. Whelk, I think you said that when Lecter says Will is the mongoose that will protect him from the "snakes" who slither by, he's referring to her. That fits without Alana's needing to be corrupt, because he must know that if she catches him doing anything dodgy she'll bust him for it. So she needs to not find out.

I also did some digging into the meaning behind the story "A Good Man Is Hard To Find." That is the story that Alana is reading to a comatose Abigail. The full text is here. In summary, the driver of the action in the story is the Grandmother of a Southern US family on vacation. I believe Alana is playing the role of the Grandmother. The Grandmother manipulates the family into taking a particular route, and inadvertently drives them into the path of an escaped serial killer known as the Misfit. The Grandmother has secretly brought along her pet cat, who startles, jumps out of her bag, and causes an accident. As soon as The Cat Is Out Of The Bag everything overturns, taking the car with it. A group of people appear, these are the Misfit and his gang. The Grandmother lets slip that she recognises the Misfit. The males in the family are taken away to be killed, followed by the females. The Grandmother pleads with the Misfit for her own life. She touches the Misfit on the shoulder and says "Why you're one of my babies, you're one of my own children!"

"When the Grandmother touched him, the Misfit sprang back as if a snake had bitten him and he shot the Grandmother three times through the chest."

This is a really difficult story to understand, but according to Flannery O'Connor herself, the Grandmother is sincere in what she says and her statement is an act of grace on her part. The Misfit's shooting her is also an act of grace. O'Connor said that whether he liked it or not, her words would take root in the Misfit and, like the mustard seed, would grow until he became the prophet he was meant to be.

Here is a good Catholic analysis of the story, and here is another theological analysis.

I am pretty sure the Misfit is Hannibal here, even though the Misfit was jailed for a crime he did not remember committing. I think the Misfit maps to Hannibal because he is in rebellion against God, and his crimes are about choosing to have whatever destructive fun he can during a short lifetime in which no certainty about the existence of God is possible. The epigraph to SOTL is the verse by Paul about the struggle against evil being futile if there is no God and if there will be no resurrection. If that's the case, the only rational choice is "eat, drink, and be merry," and that is definitely Lecter's philosophy of life. To the extent he believes in God he is only interested in mocking Him.

The important point in this story which ends with two acts of grace is that both of these acts of grace will save both characters. The Grandmother has spent her whole life trying to uphold a very futile and Pharisaic form of "right" behaviour, whereas the Misfit has spent his life committing as much wrongdoing as he can, and yet in neither case *does it matter in the least,* because grace.

What has that got to do with Alana? Well, she is definitely very concerned with right behaviour, and not in a superficial way like the Grandmother of the story. Her concern with right behaviour is her greatest strength and (assuming we can take her at face value) she is a person of genuine integrity. But here's the thing, Alana does everything right, and still falls victim to Hannibal's deceptions. Being right hasn't protected her at all.

As for how this will apply to Hannibal during the confrontation we see, I'm not sure. I think maybe Alana might not be able to shoot because of her feelings of connection to Hannibal, and that her perception of Hannibal as the same as her (a doctor, a professional peer) is going to overlay itself over her perception of him as a monster. She may also say something to try to appeal to him as a person, and whatever she says may only elicit violence from Hannibal and be her undoing *because* she might actually succeed in getting to him emotionally. (What she could possibly say to him that could affect his development longer term, I don't know.)

It is strange to think of the Misfit shooting the Grandmother "with grace", but when we think about Hannibal's bashing Alana's head against the wall, in his way, he does so with a kind of grace. It's just not the kind of grace that does anybody any good. I mean it depends how much you can map the Hannibal story with the O'Connor story. Hannibal does go on to become what you might call a prophet, he just becomes a prophet of eeeeEEEEEEvul. So, yeah.

So... yeah. If Alana is being dressed up like a reptile it could be because of that. It doesn't necessarily have to be because she's hiding an evil nature.
posted by tel3path at 1:31 PM on January 25 [2 favorites]

Also, Alana is matched to somebody sartorially. Look at the discussion with Abigail outside the asylum. She's dressed Abigail up just like herself.

...OMG. Suddenthought... what if... she somehow follows the same pattern with Hannibal as Abigail does, where he sets everything up for Abigail to kill Nicholas Boyle and then manipulates her into hiding the body? What if he is going to manipulate Alana in a similar way? Or what if he already has done that and it's undermined her more fundamentally than she knows?

And yeah, Hannibal wears plaid all the time, but Will also wears plaid all the time. Hannigram 5eva.
posted by tel3path at 1:33 PM on January 25

Sometimes they're wearing practically same weave but in a slightly different size and material.
posted by The Whelk at 2:13 PM on January 25 [1 favorite]

I feel like the Misfit, if we're going to that as a motif, reads better for Will ...if Will honestly thinks he did everything they said he did ( or Alana thinks Will thinks he actually did it.) Trying to be as bad as possible cause EVERYINE assumes you are a monster ( for a crime you cAnt remember committing) ...screams Will to me.

And yeah, I'd be surprised if Alana, post-big reveal doesn't NOPE herself out of the universe.
posted by The Whelk at 2:18 PM on January 25

Yeah, but I think by the end of season 1 Will doesn't think he did it any more. Nor is he trying to be as bad as possible. On the contrary, I think it's characteristic of Will to try to be as good as possible in the face of everyone's expectations of him, including his own.

Lecter is the one who's like "screw God, take whatever pleasure in life that you can, and especially in hurting other people." That's the Misfit's stated philosophy, as well as Lecter's.
posted by tel3path at 2:34 PM on January 25

I'm assuming the A Good Man.. Motifs are coming from Alana's PoV, where she doesn't know that Hannibal is the Ripper and Will is innocent.

Like, what if she's trying to shoot Will behind Hannibal, convinced that a dangerous mental patient has escaped and is after his friend who put him there.

I mean ...if you want maximum Alana meltdown moment, that's an idea.
posted by The Whelk at 2:38 PM on January 25 [2 favorites]


posted by dogheart at 3:55 PM on January 25 [2 favorites]

I think they're coming from our point of view. It's dramatic irony to have Alana reading that story, of all stories. It's a story of someone who hands over her family to a serial killer, which Alana has already done by the time she is reading the story, but only the audience knows that.

It's tempting to get distracted by the Misfit's lack of memory of his crimes, but overall Hannibal is a better fit.

Of course, it may just be a matter of overfitting the comparison, it's the snake motif that makes me think otherwise. If we got too literal, we'd be saying that Alana must be the Misfit because she's the one with the gun.
posted by tel3path at 5:04 PM on January 25

Oh wait though, I see what you mean.

When Will says "guess you dodged a bullet with me" and Alana says "I feel like I got wounded", that could be in conscious or unconscious back-reference to the story, which Alana did read in front of Will.

In any case, I think that might be the conversation Alana *thinks* she is having with the Misfit, where he only metaphorically shoots (wounds) her. Both of them are displaying quite a lot of grace in that conversation, and it is a conversation where Alana thinks she is talking to the Misfit's real-life counterpart (and Will thinks so, too, at that point).

And then later on Hannibal reveals himself to be the real Misfit.

He actually does, though. He *is* the real Misfit. Now that I think of it it all... fits...
posted by tel3path at 5:22 PM on January 25

Oh damn I just spent a good ten minutes blocking out the "Feed Me" number from Little shop of horrors to be Hannibal-exact

Okay Ellen Greene is in the actual show so it's not too crazy

"I don't know anyone who deserves to be chopped up and fed to a fancy cannibal!" "Suuuuure you do."

does it have to be human? feed me does it have to be mine?!
posted by The Whelk at 10:26 PM on January 25 [1 favorite]

/You didn't have nuthin' til you met me/
C'mon kid what will it be/
One particular girl?/
How about that Aaaaalana?/
posted by The Whelk at 10:32 PM on January 25 [1 favorite]

What's this I hear about it being a "soap opera"? A SOAP OPERA.

Like, Season 1 was a sitcom, and now! It's going to get really exciting!

Evil Plaid Twin! Star-Crossed Lovers! And of course, the Large Ham (is unusually quiet today).

I guess it's too much to hope that when Hannibal sticks his thumb on one of the fishing lures that his DNA will be detectable on that. Can Sassy Science do the Fingerprinting Air thing, or are they uncharacteristically constrained by reality?

Though honestly I think it's the human limbs in the chef's pantry that are really going to blow his cover.
posted by tel3path at 5:46 AM on January 26

If Will isn't exonerated by s3 though I don't know how I'll cope.

I mean, just proving that Hannibal eats people, well that doesn't prove Will is innocent does it? And he's apparently gonna get convicted so saying "stop the trial" won't work. And even when someone is proven innocent the process of getting them out of jail still takes a good year or so.
posted by tel3path at 6:38 AM on January 26

Ha! I knew they where going for an Edwardian fit for Hannibal's suits.
posted by The Whelk at 12:58 PM on January 26

I mean, just proving that Hannibal eats people, well that doesn't prove Will is innocent does it?

It's worse than that. If they stick to the Red Dragon event line, nobody has a clue that Hannibal eats people until Will guesses, Hannibal realizes he has figured it out, and they nearly kill one another in the ensuing fight in Hannibal's office. So something else has to spring Will from the pokey.
posted by localroger at 1:20 PM on January 26

Fuller has already said that the events of Will figuring out that Hannibal is the Chesapeake Ripper will be different from the book because the series has already used that bit of backstory - with Miriam Lass discovering the Wound Man drawing in Hannibal's office and being killed for it. That's how Will figured it out in the book.
posted by crossoverman at 3:44 PM on January 26

Will discovers Hannibal is the ripper THROUGH SONG

( I just rewatched the last two episodes and it's interesting to remember how much each character knows cause we often forget this being viewers who know everything. Like the case against Will is pretty flimsy, but there is no connection to Hannibal in the minds of most people at. All. The big reveal is going to be SHOCKING AND UPSETTING FOR EVERYONE. Except Bedelia. )
posted by The Whelk at 4:33 PM on January 26 [1 favorite]

OK well I've only seen the last 3 episodes which are online and now the first three and the ep 1 commentary, which was in fact great. Disk 2 should be here tomorrow with eps 3-5. I should be up to date by next weekend and ready to see season 2 in real time.
posted by localroger at 5:17 PM on January 26

You will be ready for our serial killer dinner party!

Oh god that means you haven't seen THE DINNER PARTY.
posted by The Whelk at 5:25 PM on January 26

posted by localroger at 5:40 PM on January 26

*penuldum swing*
posted by The Whelk at 5:42 PM on January 26

Is there some place we mefites go to continue these discussions when the FP thread expires?

I was disappointed not to have a place to point out that the Sleepy Hollow finale was so over the top that at least two communication satellites and a Moon rover probably piggybacked into orbit on it.
posted by localroger at 6:24 PM on January 26

How is the case against Will so flimsy?

I mean he has trophies, but the argument against that is he could have been framed? That's kinda weak.

Or, I guess, in his deranged state he could have taken trophies from the victims but that doesn't mean he actually killed them. You could accuse him of obstructing justice/messing with evidence, or just being icky, but it is really a reach to assume he's the killer just because he has trophies.

Also, right, why *is* it so farfetched that someone could have planted evidence? Nobody had access to his house... Except one other person, and nobody had access to all the bodies... Except one other person.

That was around when every murder was committed.

That ear is a bit hard to explain tho.

Unless someone were floating around in his social circle who had surgical skills and could imaginably have jammed it down his throat.

And had psychiatric skills and the willingness to misuse drugs to leverage Will's worst fears about himself against him. And has said in front of his professional peers that "psychic driving" ain't so bad in certain circumstances despite being unethical.

Also, driving Hannibal to the Hobbs house to rave at him and threaten him looks a bit bad too,

...unless Hannibal were guilty of course...

And of course we believe the mysterious phone caller was our copycat killer. But that's definitely not Hannibal because Hannibal says Will coulda done it and what possible reason could he have to lie...

Mind you, someone would have to have gone to an elaborate amount of trouble to be this deceptive. It's not like they live in a world where serial killers all have degrees in conceptual art and are all over the... Oh wait.

Egad, Whelk, it's true, when you think about it the reasoning that Will must have done it is flimsy, and ultimately social. He's the Butt Monkey, so he can take the blame regardless of what actually happened.

Wow, I really did not realize it was this bad but now that I think about it!

I've seen a fanfic where Will escapes and goes all Carrie on everybody's ass. Maybe I should read it because it's starting to look like a reasonable reaction to all this. Daaaamn!!!
posted by tel3path at 12:03 AM on January 27

It's almost like everyone assumes the worst of Will and naturally assumes he's a fragile china cup waiting to become a SEEKRIT KILLER. Almost like he's unstable or something!

It's almost like the beloved european eccentric knew that and worked on everyone else thinking that to hide his own murderous crimes!

(My favorite thing on re-watch is to note how often people Will like he's the FBI's problem child and not an adult, like Jack is the Principal and Hannibal is his dad. Oh poor will.)
posted by The Whelk at 12:13 AM on January 27 [1 favorite]

It's not the world of the show Dr. Lecter wrote a notable paper on Social Exclusion or anything....
posted by The Whelk at 12:24 AM on January 27 [1 favorite]

And Lecter is the only one who doesn't grossly pathologize him or appear to be using him. "I'm your friend! I don't care about the lives you save! I care about your life!"

Unfortunately he also totes ignores a whole raft of neurological symptoms, hallucination! Just stress. Sleepwalking in your underwear on the highway! Oh don't worry about that, it's a great opportunity to show up in my kitchen in the middle of the night while I tell you I'm always here for you 24/7 and my kitchen is always open to friends! You won't even want to get rid of your neurological symptoms after I pull that one, and I don't even have to take sexual advantage of you to get you hooked! I accept you, buddy, crazy and all! (of course the part of you that's actually crazy is situational, but I'm the only person in the world who even cares about the difference and I'm too busy using it against you)

And then from the other side, Will tells Jack he's not sure he's fit for work much longer and Jack says FINE BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL KINDS OF DEATHS YOU NEGLIGENT JERK, SEE IF I CARE and then Will has a really baroque hallucination and doesn't bother mentioning it, because demonstrably, nobody cares.
posted by tel3path at 12:55 AM on January 27 [2 favorites]

I have to wonder what this whole situation would look like if an outside observer had to review it.

First, Will gets all traumatized by shooting GJH.

Then, Jack, who is justly worried about the effect on Will, insists that he be evaluated for fitness to return to the field. This is standard, but not a formality. He is offered a choice of Bloom or Lecter, with the suggestion that Lecter is better because he has less of a personal relationship with Will.

Will chooses Lecter, but not because he has a less personal relationship with him. For one thing, he wants to escalate his personal relationship with Bloom. For another, the first thing Lecter did was bring him breakfast practically in bed, and aggressively insist upon becoming friends. Will explicitly *says* let's keep it professional (while getting himself outside of a nice forkful of people-scramble) and Lecter says not a chance, we are going to be BFFs. By contrast, Bloom has *never even been in a room alone* with Will.

So okay, they weren't to know about the fraternizing over breakfast. But then, Will and Lecter together go to the Hobbs house, and hilarity ensues. It is a life threatening situation for both of them, Lecter doesn't act like he's in danger, but he is. Lecter then directly sees one person die a violent death, and administers aid to another person who comes very close to death. Lecter was an ER surgeon, sure, but he quit that for emotional reasons, and emergency personnel aren't immune to emotional trauma by any means.

Yet nobody questions Leçter's fitness to return to the field -*not even* as a formality. Doesn't he need to get certified? If he's running around in the field, isn't he a special agent too? I don't think "special agent's babysitter" is going to get through billing.

So who would certify him, Bedelia? I think Bedelia's response would be lol no fucking way, and I really doubt he'd even ask. Did he forge up some paperwork? Certify himself? I don't know, but to all appearances his fitness was never questioned at all.

Lecter then goes on to give therapy to someone he evaluated as fit for work... It's dodgy to give forensic or fitness-for-work evals on one of your own patients, but maybe not if they weren't previously your patient. Lecter also stresses that Will is not "officially" his patient... Doesn't anybody question that? I assume he's not billing it out and is only billing the FBI for "consultancy" or whatever? Nobody asks "is Will your patient or not, and what is this about 'unofficial' therapy?"

And aren't they going to eventually have questions about the timeline of the encephalitis symptoms? There must be a police report about Will getting picked up on the road. Some people may know about Lecter having a key to Will's house, and I've noticed fans speculating that Will may have a key to Lecter's house because of how he barges in on the Tobias Budge dinner. Giving your shrink a key to your house in the boonies may not be crossing professional lines, but having a key to your shrink's house looks like, well, we all know what that looks like.

Bedelia is the nearest thing to an outside observer that we have, and she says "stop what you're doing with Will Graham, it's hella dodgy."

It is perhaps artificial to take a hard line on fraternization between fellow professionals in the same circle (in The Sopranos Dr Melfi was patient, colleague, and friend to Elliott, and I imagine that's inevitable) but... point is that *everyone's* judgement is clouded by personal relationships, and you have to wonder how long it would take an expert stranger, who hadn't been charmed by Hannibal, to unravel all this and bust him. Or at least pin him as a suspect.

The team are showing quite a bit of self-unawareness, but the narrative is very keenly aware of professional boundaries and why they're good, so it can't be unfolding this way by accident.

I hope the trial will amount to some cynical stranger coming in, taking a quick look, and saying "your case against this poor puppy-man is insubstantial BS, whereas this other man's name rhymes with cannibal, release the prisoner at once" but I suppose that's too much to hope for.
posted by tel3path at 4:31 AM on January 27 [2 favorites], I think Jack is going to be the one who (Miriam Lass aside) goes through the discovery -> disembowelling process, or something like it.

I know we can't take the promo material at face value, but that's what it looks like.

Will's interactions with Lecter are already way past that, since he apparently accuses Lecter from behind bars. I think getting shot is more or less a substitution for the physical damage Lecter does him, just as getting banged up in a hospital for the criminally insane is a substitution for his checking himself into inpatient treatment.
posted by tel3path at 7:03 AM on January 27

Obviously this is pretty incredibly spoilery, but someone appears to have gotten their hands on the "next week on Hannibal" for S02E02.

Without getting into specifics about what's shown, I reacted to it thusly: AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHUISHFLUHSEFEIOSFJOA:WDJWNCILENUIGUWEFE
posted by sparkletone at 10:22 AM on January 27 [1 favorite]

posted by The Whelk at 10:31 AM on January 27

*takes in huge intake of breath*


*performs the I WAS RIGHT BUWAHAHAHA dance*
posted by The Whelk at 10:34 AM on January 27

posted by tel3path at 10:40 AM on January 27

That video is gone now. :(
posted by crossoverman at 1:26 PM on January 27

Obviously this is pretty incredibly spoilery, but someone appears to have gotten their hands on the "next week on Hannibal" for S02E02 vimeo .
Page not found

Sorry, there is no video here.

Either it was deleted or it never existed in the first place. Such are the mysteries of the Internet.
posted by homunculus at 1:27 PM on January 27


posted by The Whelk at 1:31 PM on January 27


posted by tel3path at 1:34 PM on January 27

someone spill the beans here
posted by invitapriore at 1:42 PM on January 27

the big thing?

Rot 13 BEGIN:

Orqyrvn va Jvyy'f pryy, yrnavat bire naq juvfcrevat "V oryvrir lbh."
posted by The Whelk at 1:45 PM on January 27 [1 favorite]

...and there was much squealing and wringing of hands in the workplace.
posted by invitapriore at 2:48 PM on January 27

That video is gone now. :(

Such is the life of leaked material. If it had been more than a "next time on," I wouldn't have watched it, or even linked it. However, given that it was just a teaser for something early in the season, I decided it was okay to do both in this case (might still be kind of a dick move).

The Whelk is telling the rot13'd truth about the main !!! of its contents.
posted by sparkletone at 2:58 PM on January 27

So I just got home and my husband pulls out the DVR remote and says:
"You are going to be thankful that I watch Dracula" and then shows me this and SWEET HOLY MOTHER OF AWESOME.
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:02 PM on January 27

I picked the right muse, is all I'm saying.
posted by tel3path at 5:38 PM on January 27

Okay homunculus, I hope you are happy 'cause I'm all hooked on True Detective now. Woody Harrelson v. feminist hillbilly madam just won me over.
posted by Dr. Zira at 5:44 PM on January 27

posted by homunculus at 5:46 PM on January 27

Just finished eps 4-6 via Netflix. Dinner party Soon. Will enjoy after the ice storm and enforced exile to the other side of the lake because none of the bridges will be passable tomorrow evening.
posted by localroger at 6:52 PM on January 27


More antlers (possibly nsfw).
posted by homunculus at 7:02 PM on January 27

OH GOD I have now seen three episodes of True Detective. I feel like I just walked down an episode of Hannibal and then took a left turn at the intersection of Breaking Bad and Winter's Bone. The first twenty minutes of episode three deserve a dump truck of writing Emmy things.
posted by Dr. Zira at 7:14 PM on January 27 [1 favorite]


That teaser and the full trailer's use of Stand By Me are both so perfect. I'm sure those ads aren't going to end up doing that much for the ratings, but they're at least trying and not misrepresenting the show or anything.

The official tumblr when posting semi-obliquely about the leak today indicated there would be more teaser bits coming in the lead up to the premiere. I get that I'm not really the target audience for such things as I'm already a hyper-aware super fan of the show... But I hope they keep this level of cool up.
posted by sparkletone at 8:40 PM on January 27

Guys guys guys, the offical NBC tumbkr liked my Hannibal tie *swooon*

posted by The Whelk at 2:44 PM on January 29 [5 favorites]

That is a pretty Hannibal-y tie. Also Season 1 is up on Amazon Prime for streaming. I think it was just buying episodes before. Anyway, free for Prime people (might've been mentioned already in the thread, but I think this is a change).
posted by sparkletone at 3:26 PM on January 29 [2 favorites]


I know I left this thread in my Recent Activity for a reason.

The nice thing is that I just powered through all of Downton Abbey last week, am probably halfway through Hyperdrive now, so room should be opening up in my TV dance card pretty soon.
posted by Sara C. at 3:28 PM on January 29 [3 favorites]

I'll keep something warm in the oven for you.

*sinister musical cue*
posted by The Whelk at 3:44 PM on January 29 [1 favorite]

( okay also I was with my tailor getting a new suit made last week and they pointed out thier most popular pattern recently and it was a total Hannibal Lecter windowpane red and blue and brown thing. It made me very worried.)
posted by The Whelk at 3:59 PM on January 29 [1 favorite]

Between Hannibal, Mad Men, and Boardwalk Empire it wouldn't surprise me if we saw a return to louder suits.
posted by Sara C. at 4:28 PM on January 29

I think the seeds where planted when Doctor Who got nerds to actually put on English style jackets and vests.

The future may be a total Pasiey Carnaby street fantasia .
posted by The Whelk at 4:34 PM on January 29

( like I love brown suits and they where considered quite dated and fussy and unprofessional until like three years ago and now bam, dark brown and light blue, all over, everywhere.)
posted by The Whelk at 4:37 PM on January 29

What Kind of Meat is Human Meat?
posted by homunculus at 6:37 PM on January 29

Another new, brief teaser. This one's a bit more metal.

PS. Hannibalhannibal!hannibalhannibal
posted by sparkletone at 10:35 AM on January 30 [1 favorite]

Mason Verger's been cast.
posted by sparkletone at 9:41 AM on January 31


(squee squee squee)
posted by Kitteh at 10:17 AM on January 31

Question, has micheal pitt ever played a character who wasn't involved in some incredibly questionable sex?
posted by The Whelk at 1:53 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]

Dammit, I was going to say Boardwalk, but incest, so no.

Actually I think that's not his first role playing someone who was into the incest thing. (The Dreamers)
posted by Sara C. at 2:32 PM on January 31

And the Vergers, despite having incompatible sexualities, are very uh ...overtones with the incest.
posted by The Whelk at 2:37 PM on January 31

I just got the last DVD with the final 3 episodes, which I've seen since they are online but now I'll see them knowing who all the characters are and at DVD quality. Then I will be officially ready to feast on season 2.

I have to say Mikkelson's Hannibal is far closer to a standard sociopath than even Harris' original portrayal in Red Dragon. Not telling Will about the encephalitis is straight down the middle sociopath behavior, conforming to the advice I always give someone who is interacting with such a person: "No matter how close you think you are to them, one day they will stick a knife in you just to see what color your blood is." I got four handles sticking out of my own back from taking too long to learn that lesson.

Hannibal also takes very un-Hannibal like beating at the hands of the vocal cord violinist. I kept expecting him to come up with some elegant jujitsu move and just casually drop the guy while daintily wiping his lip.

It will be interesting to see in season 4 what it is about Hannibal that makes his advice so precious to Will. Seems like they are avoiding the aura of transhumanity which was noticeable even in Red Dragon and which the Harris properties have been developing ever since.
posted by localroger at 3:09 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]

And the Vergers, despite having incompatible sexualities, are very uh ...overtones with the incest.

Mason may be incompatible with Margot's sexuality, but she isn't incompatible with his, and as the novel revealed she did take the chocolate.
posted by localroger at 3:10 PM on January 31

..oj god I had somehow blocked out the specifics.

I'm going to my mind palace now where everything is a puppy
posted by The Whelk at 3:34 PM on January 31

I really love Hannibal, but I haven't read the novels and desperately want to know what you guys are talking about. Who took the chocolate? What is this chocolate? Why is that so awful? Is there some sort of Hannibal Wiki or other website that summarises the events of the novels so I can put events in Hannibal in context?
posted by Partario at 3:42 PM on January 31

i'm currently inside the universe where everything is Will being the human version of a puppy that falls down
posted by The Whelk at 3:49 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]

Partario, Mason's sister Margot Verger had a very prominent role in Hannibal the novel where she formed a bizarre friendship with Barney Matthews, the orderly who cared for Hannibal before his escape from the institution and who earned Hannibal's respect in the course of his duties.

This formed the basis for several plot turns and reveals, including the final post-Clarice-turning reveal, which made her absence from the movie most disappointing.

Fairly early on Margot reveals to Barney that when they were children Mason would bribe her with chocolate to do $THINGS. It's then used as a shorthand throughout the novel that if you take the chocolate, you have to expect to pay for it.
posted by localroger at 3:58 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]

Ah, thanks for the explanation. I thought the chocolate was somehow made of people. After reading all the various little things mentioned in passing during this discussion, I think I'll go ahead and buy the Harris' novels for my kindle.
posted by Partario at 4:10 PM on January 31

How would you even use human remains in chocolate making anyway?

Um, he asked ....totally facetiously..
posted by The Whelk at 4:21 PM on January 31

2 cannibals 1 cup.
posted by homunculus at 4:57 PM on January 31

Will and Hannibal get creative! ( green is not a creative color)
posted by The Whelk at 5:31 PM on January 31

I was going to ask how one could use human remains to make beer then I found this.
posted by Partario at 5:38 PM on January 31

we just spent a brief fever on tumblr imagining a Murder Family 50s sitcom which we then figured out was basically just imagining The Munsters as cannibals.
posted by The Whelk at 9:25 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]

Man, the Boardwalk actors are really getting around. There's a whole Shea Whigham thread now re: his True Detective sermon.
posted by Dr. Zira at 1:09 AM on February 2 [1 favorite]

Oh, you could so pitch a Murder Family sitcom as "The Munsters meets Serial Mom".
posted by Sara C. at 1:21 AM on February 2 [1 favorite]

They're the nice family next door that just happens to kill and eat people ( who deserve it )
posted by The Whelk at 6:51 AM on February 2

They're the nice family next door that just happens to kill and eat people ( who deserve it )

Dexterity runs in the family.
posted by localroger at 7:11 AM on February 2 [1 favorite]

Imagine the kooky awkwardness when Abigal starts dating a vegetarian!
posted by The Whelk at 7:14 AM on February 2 [1 favorite]

we just spent a brief fever on tumblr imagining a Murder Family 50s sitcom which we then figured out was basically just imagining The Munsters as cannibals.

Oh, you could so pitch a Murder Family sitcom as "The Munsters meets Serial Mom". guys realize you're describing Fuller's previous show, right?
posted by Merzbau at 3:44 PM on February 2

yes thats what it made it so much stranger
posted by The Whelk at 3:47 PM on February 2

Yeah localroger, I said above that one of the things I enjoy most about the TV series is that it isn't portraying Hannibal as superhuman, but as an outwardly fabulous but inadequate and evil human being. They might be in accord with book canon in saying that he's not a sociopath, but he'll certainly do till one comes along. For all the brilliant individuality with which the character is portrayed, he's still a type.

Even this version of Hannibal is plenty accomplished enough, what with being a surgeon and a psychiatrist and a chef and a fashion influencer and an artist and super-duper physically strong and and and. Harris really didn't know when to stop. At least this Hannibal is not completely outside the range of human possibility; such accomplished people exist, even though they're the rare ones performing at the highest levels. (Like Debi Thomas who has an Olympic gold medal in figure skating and a first degree in engineering and is now an orthopaedic surgeon.) He's OTT, but not that OTT. The one superpower he has appears to be time management. Harris just didn't know when to stop, and the Mary Sueness became genuinely offensive when imputed to such an overtly evil character.

I love that we have it all established that Hannibal Is Better Than You for all those episodes, and then along comes Bedelia with a hat-pin and punctures his balloon.

If Hannibal were really that fabulous, would he have to resort to getting girls through drugs and hypnosis? I think not.
posted by tel3path at 1:54 PM on February 4

He could try to make friends without blackmail and gaslighting for a start
posted by The Whelk at 2:12 PM on February 4

The Whelk, sociopaths and this version of Hannibal don't really have friends, they just have resources which happen to be human. One thing they have kept from the Harris original mold is Hannibal's interest in transformation, and his treatment of Will is very openly an experiment to see if he can use Will's stressful situation to push him over the edge into becoming (the capital-B Becoming was even used at least once in one of Will's dream sequences) something more like himself. Hannibal would not regard this as a particularly cruel thing or as a betrayal, just as an opportunity which should not be ignored. If his experiment succeeds, after all, he is doing Will a huge favor by making him into a superior being.
posted by localroger at 3:24 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]

Stupid fancy vampire tricking everyone.
posted by The Whelk at 3:39 PM on February 4

Stupid fancy vampire

To be fair, Hannibal's method of trying to turn Will doesn't involve feeding on him, which is a bit different from the vampire legend.
posted by localroger at 4:19 PM on February 4

Yeah but he's constantly being coded in these vampire tropes, the commentary tracks on the pilot mention how he "has to be invited in, like a vampire." and how they wanted to reference those tropes but not too much.

But then he's indirectly responsible for a freaking neck wound that a young womanhas to hide with a scarf. Plus all the feeding on immoral food. It's definitely a motif.
posted by The Whelk at 5:31 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]

Yeah, he wants to turn Will, not to feed on him.

That could change the moment Hannibal gets peckish.
posted by tel3path at 5:34 AM on February 5

He just wants what everybody wants, a fulfilling carrer, enagng hobbies, and a family of like-minded murderers to feast on the inferior.
posted by The Whelk at 7:03 AM on February 5 [2 favorites]

Ah! I'm assuming a Buffyverse model of feeding off people vs. turning them into vampires. On Buffy, a vampire either feeds off somebody or turns them, not both. Turning someone into a vampire has to involve an act of will on both parts, though it can be somewhat unwitting on the part of the victim: the vampire consumes a little of your blood and you consume a little of their blood. Then you'll die and wake up a vampire at sunset.

Other vampireverses portray the turning process as a lot more gradual. This model seems to fit what happens to Abigail. I think in this model, it is possible to resist the process before it progresses too far, which Abigail does. However I'm not too well up on vampire-lore outside of the Buffyverse.

Nevertheless, the "turn them or feed on them, but not both" model does seem to apply to Hannibal. And of course he can go "ah screw it, I'm gonna feed on them" at any time.

Akshuly... I'm wondering if that's how it went with Sutcliffe. Maybe Sutcliffe was kinda evil, but also proved to be kinda stupid. Hannibal lets him be for a few decades, then goes back and artistically kills him... and leaves him on the side of his plate... okay, you can only take the analogy so far, I guess.
posted by tel3path at 12:04 PM on February 5

Some Australian company (it looks like) posted a new trailer. Seems like this shouldn't be out and about exactly until after the premiere has aired? It does seem legit though.

Without going into details about its contents: It is more than a little spoilery for those who haven't been paying attention to what's already known about how S2 is going to go. However, if you've seen everything at this point (and at least read about the contents of that leaked "next week on"), there isn't much of anything purely new either. I think it's very well done though (but am a gushing superfan, so who knows if this would hook new people).

All the same: AAAAAAHHHHHHGGGJSOIEFJSEFJESOFJEF. Two more weeks, give or take...
posted by sparkletone at 10:46 PM on February 5

posted by The Whelk at 11:36 PM on February 5

"The conclusion that I've drawn is that you are dangerous."
posted by The Whelk at 11:42 PM on February 5


Also: Will Graham, the man with a strong enough case to break through
Scully's skepticism.

Does anybody notice how once again Gillian Anderson is playing THE RATIONAL ONE??? I mean I know they cast her because they couldn't get Angela Lansbury but in a way, this fits better. (And no disrespect but I would not be prepared to ship Will with Jessica Fletcher.)


Like, they really must all genuinely have rocks in their heads I s2g.

Also, I've changed my mind, Hannibal. Go ahead and eat Beverly, see if I care.
posted by tel3path at 3:03 AM on February 6


[Six Million Dollar Man Sound™ intensifies]
posted by sparkletone at 3:09 AM on February 6 [1 favorite]


[in the voice of marvin the martian] Ooh! It makes me so mad!
posted by tel3path at 3:24 AM on February 6 [1 favorite]

Any questions I had about whether that trailer was posted before it was supposed to be, well... Fuller tweeted it this morning. I guess it was stumbled upon before then because Australia's many hours ahead of the US. Wooooo.
posted by sparkletone at 7:12 AM on February 6

"you're the new Will Graham" sounds so sinister.
posted by The Whelk at 8:37 AM on February 6 [1 favorite]

It's such a bouquet of primal fears isn't it? Not only are you unsure if you've committed a crime and being falsely accused and imprisoned but also someone has stolen your role and replaced you despite the fact that he's clearly a sinister antlered wendigo but NO ONE SELSE SEEMS TO NOTICE THIS.

I hope the first shot we see of Alana is her trying to feed all eight dogs at once.
posted by The Whelk at 8:53 AM on February 6

It's a literal nightmare scenario.

Is that profile of the woman leaning towards him - whose face is that? Is it Alana's?
posted by tel3path at 10:45 AM on February 6

Is that profile of the woman leaning towards him - whose face is that? Is it Alana's?

I was wondering who you meant since I didn't remember any such shot from my previous two viewings. I think I found what you meant when going through it more carefully. Did you mean this one? I can't really tell who that is, but there's some weird black smoke stuff coming off of her. Also, the background is blurry, but it seems to me in that shot that Will is wearing his prison jumpsuit for what that's worth.

Maybe this season the wendigo will make a friend in Will's head and that's who all the talk about characters kissing has really been about.
posted by sparkletone at 11:45 AM on February 6

Like Herman's Head!
posted by The Whelk at 12:02 PM on February 6

(random fashion observation from the trailer. Hannibal is back in his "good guy" colors of pale blues, greys and whites. Which I hope doesn't last long cause that Easter Bonnet Baby Blue number was the only outfit he didn't look amazing in)
posted by The Whelk at 12:31 PM on February 6

posted by The Whelk at 12:38 PM on February 6


I'm so glad they are in this for the same reasons we all are: Flower crowns and stupid GIFs and stuff.
posted by sparkletone at 1:50 PM on February 6

Devil in the Details - how Hannibal fits into Bryan Fuller's oeuvre.
posted by crossoverman at 3:45 PM on February 6 [1 favorite]

Devil in the Details

This was so good! You'll have to skim through some GIFs and what not, but some of the most interesting Hannibal-related writing I've encountered is on this tumblr. It's frequently in response to questions, but even when I haven't entirely agreed with the person's analysis of various parts of the show, it's always an interesting read.
posted by sparkletone at 8:24 PM on February 6

So I saw a comment today to the effect that the one person who believes Will Graham is the person who doesn't know him, but does know things about Hannibal that might change people's view of him.

It was pointed out that this doesn't leave Will any less stigmatised - he's still without credibility, it's just that Hannibal is *less* credible in the eyes of that one person.

I'm... not sure if that makes it less of an improvement? I guess we'll see.

On the other hand, Will also has information about Hannibal that should change his view of him - that he helped Abigail hide the body. OTOH he was very physically and mentally debilitated by encephalitis when he learned this, so I'm not sure how much that means - and anyway, he DID soon change his view of Hannibal. Only problem being, he would say that wouldn't he?

If I had a beard, I'd be scratching it thoughtfully.
posted by tel3path at 11:40 AM on February 7

The closing act of the s1 finale made it clear that Will knows. He knows that either he or Hannibal had to have killed Abigail, and because Hannibal went too far trying to pin all the other murders on him he knows he has been framed.

The departure from Red Dragon (suggested by the fact that the Wound Man scene has already been played with another character) may be that springing Will from prison will require proving that Hannibal is the Chesapeake Ripper. If s4 is to be Red Dragon, then it stands to reason that this might be the conclusion of s2, since Hannibal has to have been in the psych ward for awhile before the events of Red Dragon drive Will to consult Hannibal. But Hannibal also has to have Mason Verger as a client long enough to get around to the face-ectomy before he's caught, and the Vergers are only apparently slated to appear toward the end of s2, so....
posted by localroger at 11:54 AM on February 7 [1 favorite]

Oh, the knowing what's going to happen, and the having to wait for it.
posted by tel3path at 2:24 PM on February 7

I have purchased special Hanibal episode one season two watching clothing.
posted by The Whelk at 2:33 PM on February 7 [3 favorites]

I am also looking into rings made of bone because dear god what has this show done to me.
posted by The Whelk at 3:35 PM on February 7

The Deer God will be pleased.
posted by homunculus at 5:30 PM on February 7

SO still refuses to let me get huge honking antler mounts or stuffed owls for the house I'm upset.
posted by The Whelk at 5:40 PM on February 7

Hey, the owls are not what they seem.
posted by localroger at 6:40 PM on February 7

I am skeptical of any fan theories that are assuming everything will be like the books and/or movies. In my mind we know they're going to build to something very similar to Red Dragon, etc. but details - even significant ones - will be changed.

I finally watched Hannibal (movie) and while there were some good sections and performances (and music) overall I didn't think it was good. I would recommend it to fans (and am glad I saw it) but wouldn't recommend it in general and see no reason to re-watch. Incidentally I noted that they referred to Mason Verger as Hannibal's fourth victim; they're really going for something different with the TV show!
posted by mountmccabe at 10:01 AM on February 8

Well we're following the basic outline of the books, no?

And while Book!Hannibal killed like 8 people TV!Hannibal is like, the 8th leading cause of death for the Baltimore area.
posted by The Whelk at 10:43 AM on February 8 [2 favorites]

It just occurred to me that being set in Baltimore makes TV!Hannibal a spinoff of The Wire.
posted by localroger at 11:58 AM on February 8

I like to think we can safely assume that Will will survive until the end of season 5, but I am not convinced we can count on ANYTHING, including that.

For all we know, several of the seasons could be set in the Underworld. Well, not really, but.

And yes, Baltimore seems to be the vortex of a Hellmouth that encompasses New England and parts of the Midwest. And the Hellmouth is an actual mouth.
posted by tel3path at 1:17 PM on February 8

Another interesting thought: One thing that was always a bit strange about Hannibal the novel is that in creating Verger the Comic Book Villain, Hannibal left him alive and knowing who attacked him. I have always thought that was a bit odd, and is a notable example of the hand-waving shortcuts so many people didn't like about H:tn. However, if Hannibal is caught by some confluence of events proving him to be the Chesapeake Ripper (and therefore springing Will from the hoosegow) then Hannibal might have some warning that his gig is about up. Rather than running, which would be tacky and low-class, Hannibal might just decide to perform a final transformative act while there's still time.
posted by localroger at 1:36 PM on February 8

The process of proving Hannibal guilty wouldn't necessarily exonerate Will, unless it was on every count, and then there's the matter of conspiracy.

But even if it did, the process of convicting Hannibal would be long.

And even after someone is proven innocent, the process getting them actually out of jail can take about a year.

All that being the case, I'm not in the least convinced that Season 3 being "The Fugitive" doesn't mean *Will* is on the run.

Oh and: Mason Verger isn't exactly in a position to report Hannibal, other than that, IDK.

I'll be pretty upset if Will gets his face ruined in the end, I must say. However as one commenter pointed out, we don't know for a fact that his facial injuries were really all thaaaaat disfiguring in the end, we only hear about it from people who have reason to exaggerate.
posted by tel3path at 1:50 PM on February 8

The process of proving Hannibal guilty wouldn't necessarily exonerate Will

It would if it involves discovering Hannibal's basement.

And even after someone is proven innocent, the process getting them actually out of jail can take about a year.

This would be true if there was a conviction, but getting a conviction on such a complicated case also takes time, and it's likely Will will be locked up without bail on suspicion but not convicted as the case is being prepared, or is perhaps even stalled as the question of Will's sanity and ability to stand trial is weighed.

Should the case still be in the stages of Will insisting on his innocence and the lawyers haggling as the government prepares its case against him when the troops find Hannibal's pantry, Will could be cut loose in a matter of hours when the prosecutor realizes he is about to do something he really, really doesn't want to explain during his re-election campaign.

I'm not in the least convinced that Season 3 being "The Fugitive" doesn't mean *Will* is on the run.

Yeah, I think it's much more likely Hannibal is the one on the run, as that allows certain things needed for the novels to be staged despite the previous departures from Harris' implied version of the timeline.
posted by localroger at 2:28 PM on February 8 [1 favorite]

Team Will Just Gets A Cool Scar Or Something.
posted by The Whelk at 2:29 PM on February 8 [1 favorite]

Yes, there's no way they are going to horribly disfigure Hugh Dancy. Mason Verger's face mash will make up for it.

Thinking about it, I'm even more glad they already gave the Wounded Man solution (originally Will's in the book) to Miriam Lass, because obviously - in some senses - Will has already figured out that Hannibal is the Chesapeake Ripper. But proving it will be the trick.

And this show still has two seasons to go crazy before it settles into Red Dragon and Silence of the Lambs. I'm expecting non-canon deaths over the course of the series, but I still think Will will survive the series.
posted by crossoverman at 4:30 PM on February 8

I have to wonder... is it possible Bedelia is going to become New And Improved Clarice?

Or possibly become tacos. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other.
posted by tel3path at 4:53 PM on February 8

is it possible Bedelia is going to become New And Improved Clarice?

More Gillian Anderson is never a bad thing and if we can't have Clarice (though I'm still praying they work this out somehow), I wouldn't mind Bedelia being more involved somehow.

What I always loved about Clarice was that she was fresh out of the Academy. And I loved that the series presages her existence with the character of Miriam Lass. So I think it would be a pity if Clarice was replaced by a practicising psychiatrist. But if Clarice can't be Clarice, I guess the story probably needs to be changed a reasonable amount anyway.

As much as Fuller suggests he'll just drop in Schmarlice Schmarling, I presume he can't keep all the details of the story the same, right?
posted by crossoverman at 4:59 PM on February 8

I loved Clarice though. I always thought that she represented the ideal type of Young Woman.

There are a number of Young Women in SOTL, all bringing the best of their abilities to bear in order to improve their lives they found themselves living [1], and all succeeding to varying degrees - mostly not. It's Clarice who has the most talent and grit and determination though.

But that's Clarice's type: Young Woman.

I mean Clarice's replacement is named Lass.

Imagine if someone had the same talent and grit and determination as Clarice (I can't prove that this is present in Bedelia, but she's still alive, despite giving the outward appearance of making very few moves) and LITERALLY all the training and personal polish of Hannibal (because Hannibal is copying *her*).

Anyway, I'm tired, so I think my point here is: Willelia 5eva.

[1] Okay, maybe not the slacker girl, at first, but boy howdy does that change when she gets put down the well. That situation, of her figuring out a way to climb out of the well - that was *all* the girls.
posted by tel3path at 5:13 PM on February 8

Fuller has said that even if they have to use Schmlice Marling the character is going to be used.
posted by localroger at 5:17 PM on February 8

This Marxist analysis of the show is really on point: here
posted by tel3path at 6:02 PM on February 8 [3 favorites]

Crap that's good.
posted by The Whelk at 6:42 PM on February 8

Miranda's gonna get et.
posted by sparkletone at 12:45 PM on February 10

She looks like she can't BELIVE a single word she's hearing.

Which is wholly appropriate.
posted by The Whelk at 2:18 PM on February 10

I'm really looking forward to the fight between Mads Mikkelsen and Samuel L. Jackson.
posted by homunculus at 3:48 PM on February 10 [1 favorite]

Top Chef: Hannibal is the best drama on network TV:

In the end, this show is not about cops and killers or even reality and dreams. It’s about how art affects the mind and body. It explicitly likens its subsidiary serial killers to striving artists struggling to perfect their style and be noticed by the public and appreciated by critics (the FBI). The killers work in mixed media: wood, steel, soil, plants, flesh, bones, teeth. When Will describes an especially elaborate murder scene as “a canvas made of bodies,” in which “each body is a brushstroke,” he’s describing Hannibal itself.
posted by crossoverman at 5:54 PM on February 10 [1 favorite]

Based on his twitter feed alone, I like how we're all jumping up and down and squee-ing and than Fuller joins in with fan art and reboots and were all "ISN'T THIS YOUR ACTUAL SHOW?" and he just squees again cause Hannibal is the best fanworks ever.
posted by The Whelk at 6:46 PM on February 10 [1 favorite]

Man, I don't buy that Marxist critique of the show at ALL. It's a tremendously different reading of Hannibal than I get; I can't really figure Hannibal in the role of capitalist consumer so much as in the role of detached aristocrat. We never see him buying stuff in the show, and we barely ever see him interacting with capitalist institutions. He doesn't preen or grouse about his stocks or his 401k or the ability of his clients to pay his fees or whether he took a real bath on that one investment that one time, even though he's given every signifier of "rich" a writer could possibly come up with.

Hannibal doesn't BUY stuff. Hannibal just HAS stuff. Hannibal, occasionally, TAKES stuff. But it's with the self-assured leonine surety that all things are his to take, not that everything has its price and he can afford that price.

And Hannibal's love of art doesn't strike me as inauthentic status-seeking; I believe he truly loves the things he owns and experiences. When he's at the opera, the zoom-in to his ear and his rapt attention signal a genuine enjoyment of the opera. His art isn't nouveau-riche Hirsts and shit, it's pretty in a quietly self-assured way. There are clothes one could put him in that would signal a desperate attempt to be the highest-status person in the room, but I can't help but read Hannibal's outfits as much weirder; P Diddy's outfits read to me as "I guess that dude has mad cash," but Hannibal's are more like, "uh... he's ... eccentric? An eccentric dude? From Europe?"

If Hannibal is written as a critique of any social structure, I'd say it's way-old-school hereditary aristocracy, not capitalism.

BUT i'm not even sure I'd say that the show functions that way. I think the main way I read the character is as a portrayal of someone trying to live as truthfully to their own soul as they can; if there's a criticism the show is leveling at the audience, I think it's that Authenticity To One's Own Beliefs Is Not A Substitute For Morality.

Though I'm not sure if I really even buy THAT much moralism, tbh. Truth be told, the main takeaway I get from the show is that I should maybe experiment with cooking more organ meats than I presently do
posted by Greg Nog at 6:47 PM on February 10 [6 favorites]

Greg Greg Greg Greg can we cook together?

I'll bring the fancy vests
posted by The Whelk at 7:20 PM on February 10

I actually just had some really good livers at brunch the other day
posted by Greg Nog at 7:21 PM on February 10

..I've been saving all the liver I got from cooking lots of poultry so I could make the liver mousse and fig recipe for the premiere.
posted by The Whelk at 7:24 PM on February 10

Greg lets be fancy cannibals together is what I am saying.

My tailor said that windowpane fabric is the most popular one he's seen so far this season soooooooo
posted by The Whelk at 7:25 PM on February 10

I hope I'm not the Franklyn to Greg's Hannibal here.

Like even if I own a red sweater vest.
posted by The Whelk at 7:33 PM on February 10

We never see him buying stuff in the show

We do see him buying stuff in the Hannibal novel, and it's interesting. He does buy very expensive and fine things, but he also goes to a gun show where he negotiates for a set of old steel knives -- the "good ones you can't get any more." Unlike most people Hannibal isn't consuming conspicuously; he doesn't consume fine things to demonstrate his ability to afford them. He consumes them because they are fine and worthy of appreciation.

He doesn't preen or grouse about his stocks or his 401k

Again, from the novel, while Hannibal comes from the aristocracy by birth his family's legacy is lost. While he is wealthy it is not wealth he was either born to or stole, but a combination of bequests from grateful clients and sensible investments. The level of wealth hinted at in the TV series may be a bit beyond this though.

I believe he truly loves the things he owns and experiences.

This is absolutely faithful to the Harris version. Hannibal's first and foremost drive is to have the best possible experiences; for him this is life's highest and best purpose. He does not pay $300 for a bottle of wine to brag that he paid $300 for a bottle of wine. He wants to taste the wine. What separates him from mainstream culture is that, as Starling remarks in SOTL, he will not deny himself. If the symphony flutist would be better enjoyed as a liver pate than for his music, Lecter will arrange it.

I think the main way I read the character is as a portrayal of someone trying to live as truthfully to their own soul as they can

Yep. And he realizes what that makes him as far as the rest of us are concerned, but that's no reason to deny himself.
posted by localroger at 7:52 PM on February 10

Look, I don't know about you, but Bryan Fuller just favorited my tweet, "Vomiting is very therapeutic". So, that happened.

It was in response to 14 Moments from Season 1 Hannibal that Almost Made Us Vomit - In a Good Way.
posted by crossoverman at 8:25 PM on February 10 [1 favorite]

I think that critique does a good job of identifying a lot of symbolic threads that are really there, and grouping both Hannibal and the FBI together as entities committed to the maintenance of an unstable order that requires a constant influx of new bodies as fuel to stave off its collapse is a good insight, I think. I agree that it misses the mark with regards to his appreciation of art, but I think it's grasping at something real -- the acquisition of art itself is not an inherent good from Hannibal's point of view, but the cultivation of artistic sensibilities certainly is, and that's where the emptiness comes in: Hannibal is maybe the world's most committed aesthete, and it turns out that being the world's most committed aesthete is a pretty horrendous thing.

Hannibal's old world affectations and vampiric aspects almost make him seem like the soul of turn-of-the-century Europe, an aesthetically overwrought society with a rotten heart that is right on the verge of carving up millions of people and consuming them for the benefit of the aristocracy. I don't read the show as a simple allegory, of course, but I think that's a facet of his character, and I think that Will and Jack embody two very different aspects of American society to the same extent, which is where I see the parallels to No Country For Old Men.

But yeah, the Marxist tie-together rings false, and that little bit about affective labor and Hannibal's disdain for rudeness is just a straight-up anachronism.
posted by invitapriore at 9:33 AM on February 11 [2 favorites]

Miranda's gonna get et.

posted by sparkletone at 1:24 PM on February 11

and it turns out that being the world's most committed aesthete is a pretty horrendous thing.

See also Dorian Grey, A Picture Of.
posted by The Whelk at 2:01 PM on February 11 [1 favorite]

Not very related but one of the most hilarious moments in fiction for me is that part of Dorian Grey where he's listing off all of his fineries by category in excruciatingly tedious detail, like to the extent that reading it goes from merely boring to actively painful, and about when you're sure that it's over with because the last category was as obscure as can be and this has been going on for so long now that there couldn't possibly be anything left in his fucking house you come upon a paragraph that starts with something like "he then turned his attention to the embroideries." It's like a master class in shaggy dog stories.
posted by invitapriore at 2:09 PM on February 11 [1 favorite]

Remember, after murdering someone, to use all your mental effort to choose which ring to wear that day.
posted by The Whelk at 2:11 PM on February 11

I agree with you guys that Hannibal isn't consuming for the sake of consuming; he is a sensualist, an "art for art's sake" kinda guy.

What I got from that article was that Will is up against not simply the evidence, but an entire worldview according to which Hannibal is "respectable," "professional," "stable" and whose word is to be believed without question; and Will is pathological, an accident waiting to happen.

As I've said before, there has always been one other person who *could have* done it, and was rather uniquely capable of planting the evidence against Will. But Hannibal is not even cursorily treated as a suspect at any time, not even pro forma. You might say "there is an EAR in Will's sink," and I agree, but I don't think it's enough to say that for a few reasons, including:

- Will states early in the series that the mysterious caller to the Hobbs house is believed to be the copycat killer. Outgoing phone records confirm that it came from the builders' office, narrowing the list of possible suspects to three: the secretary, Hannibal, and Will. And Hannibal says Will must have placed the call while he was outside with the secretary. And they simply accept Hannibal's word without question, as there's no indication that they ever ask the secretary to corroborate this. Shouldn't they do so, even pro forma? If Hannibal is one of the people that could have placed the call, then Hannibal is a suspect. You could say "yeah but they already have their suspect," but...

- Consider how zealous Jack is about establishing the guilt of everybody who's ever been in the vicinity of a crime scene, like Abigail for instance, or kidnapped littler kids who get forced into killing their families. Yet when it comes to Lecter, all of a sudden the quality of mercy is Jack Crawford? like "he's not your victim, Doctor". Despite the prima facie probability that Will has been, at the very least, the victim of some spectacularly shitty psychiatry. No questions, ever? Really, Jack?

- Dancy picked up on the fact that some of the plates are decorated with bird skulls. And he says "nobody thinks there's anything odd about this guy?" No, it's not a crime to decorate plates with bird skulls, but it's one indication among many that Hannibal is rather thanatically minded, which a bunch of serial-killer experts should really have noticed at least in passing. Yet nobody comments on this; not even "huh, your decorative choices run to the macabre. So what am I eating?"

tl;dr What's right about the article isn't the point about conspicuous consumption per se, but the overall framing of the show as portraying a worldview in which people like Lecter are a priori "sane/innocent" and people like Graham are a priori "pathological/guilty", and that the idea of the BAU being a place of wholly rational "objective" consideration of the evidence is in some ways a collective self-delusion that is part and parcel of the prevailing worldview.
posted by tel3path at 8:01 AM on February 13 [1 favorite]

I should add that another theme picked up by that article is connectedness. Jack has an obvious emotional reason not to ask questions about Lecter: Bella is disconnecting from Jack, and the next thing that will happen is that she... crawls away to die alone, as domestic cats are reputed to do?

Jack doesn't know if he will ever be able to connect with Bella again in this life, but because Lecter is treating Bella, Jack can clutch at the straw of this shared connection with her.

The idea that his wife might be confiding in a murderer is too horrifying to even contemplate, so of course Jack doesn't want to consider it.
posted by tel3path at 10:06 AM on February 13

Happy Valentine's Day, y'all.
posted by sparkletone at 11:30 AM on February 14 [1 favorite]

Discovered today that all 13 of the scripts for the first season are available for download!
posted by sparkletone at 9:30 PM on February 15 [5 favorites]

posted by The Whelk at 7:50 AM on February 16


apparently there where a lot more small moments of Will hallucinating (TISSUES MELTING)
posted by The Whelk at 8:21 AM on February 16

Oh, *you*, Hannibal. "look anywhere except your actual brain for the source of your hallucination."

The guy's like a Daily Mail headline in reverse: "Scientific Breakthrough! Boffins Say Hallucinations May Come From Your Brain!" but, like, the opposite.
posted by tel3path at 11:21 AM on February 16

I'm getting ready for the premiere in my own way
posted by The Whelk at 1:47 PM on February 17 [3 favorites]

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