Goblins: how do they work?
October 30, 2014 10:21 AM   Subscribe

 
The same way as magnets.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:35 AM on October 30, 2014 [5 favorites]


Halfway through the article I was just thinking "look, they're heavily invested in an r strategy while everything else their size is on a K strategy, but it's still viable, even if they're an obviously invasive species." Gladstone's theory takes that several brilliant steps further, though.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:37 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


I saw Terry Pratchett talk on tour for his recent novel Snuff which was about goblins. He mentioned something that always bugged me about Tolkien, if Humans can fall, why can't Orcs rise?

Anyway, I like the fungal evolution model and in Snuff it posits a close relationship with fungal growth. Good article.
posted by lumpenprole at 10:39 AM on October 30, 2014 [3 favorites]


Tldr: being blown to bits is part of their reproductive cycle, just as squishing a mushroom releases spores.

I'm reminded of the circumcellions, a Christian sect in late antiquity whose members used to halfheartedly mug passers by in hopes that the victim would lash out and kill them, making them martyrs.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 10:41 AM on October 30, 2014 [24 favorites]


IIRC Warhammer Goblins and Orcs grow from spores, the original infestation being accidentally introduced by ancient space visitors.
posted by Artw at 10:43 AM on October 30, 2014 [4 favorites]


Someone in the comments hit the same thought I was having while reading: Games Workshop got there first

(Artw beat me by moments ;-)
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:45 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


Makes sense to me. I decided a while back that kobolds grow spontaneously out of underground spaces that get too close to primordial chaos, and proceed to lay the groundwork for more kobolds by expanding the underworld.

Their reproduction, however, is stopped by gnomes. Hence the gnome statues kept near grottoes and other such spaces.
posted by graymouser at 10:48 AM on October 30, 2014 [5 favorites]


I'm reminded of the circumcellions, a Christian sect in late antiquity whose members used to halfheartedly mug passers by in hopes that the victim would lash out and kill them, making them martyrs.

Late antiquity was so fucking weird.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:50 AM on October 30, 2014 [14 favorites]


I'm reminded of the circumcellions, a Christian sect in late antiquity whose members used to halfheartedly mug passers by in hopes that the victim would lash out and kill them, making them martyrs.

This is the single best thing I've ever read on Metafilter.
posted by selfnoise at 10:52 AM on October 30, 2014 [10 favorites]


Another excuse to link to the longrunning webcomic "Goblins", which started out with the subtitle "Life Through Their Eyes" before the characters of two Players (a human and dwarf outwardly resembling Jim Zub's "Skullkickers" protagonists) got control of a constantly-complicating story arc.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:55 AM on October 30, 2014


graymouser: Hence the gnome statues kept near grottoes and other such spaces.

That's not the gnome posture I was expecting. That's like the clothed version of the Burt Reynolds on a rug pose (probably NSFW), except the gnome has more of the smouldering "come hither" eyes than Burt, who's grin is that of a care-free spirit.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:56 AM on October 30, 2014 [3 favorites]


Favorite GW suicidal goblin weapon has to be the Doom Diver Catapult. Yes, the gobbo "pilot" is pretty sure he's gonna die, but you're gonna die anyway as a goblin, so go out spectacularly.

The game Leviathan has, IMO, one of the best goblin figures ever; it's one solid mass of tightly-packed gobs in an undisciplined testudo. It conveys hostile and terrified in one beautiful chunk of resin.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:58 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


Barons work the same way. (Very NSFW.)
posted by kyrademon at 10:59 AM on October 30, 2014 [10 favorites]


Indeed I was hoping their reproduction would involve passing through the digestive systems of larger predators.

And of course the absoluty most expensive and rare orc coffee involves feeding the beans to goblins, who are immediately fed to dragons.
posted by happyroach at 11:01 AM on October 30, 2014 [5 favorites]


He mentioned something that always bugged me about Tolkien, if Humans can fall, why can't Orcs rise?

One of LotR's orc origin myths has them being elves or men corrupted utterly by Melkor and thus, I presume, unable to "rise" per se.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:18 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


I like Gladstone's writing. Glad to see he's a fellow Magic nerd interested in the story.
posted by Twain Device at 11:19 AM on October 30, 2014


How do they work? They sell fruit and vegetables.

Thank you, Christina Rosetti.
Did not RTFA.

posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 11:26 AM on October 30, 2014 [4 favorites]


This song got me thinking about trolls yesterday, the fact that they obviously go way back in Celtic folklore. I wondered, were they just the original homeless, living under bridges and such, maybe doing some thugging around for survival reasons? Or were they even homo-saps? What if they were the last of the neanderthals, poor guys (and girls) who just couldn't keep up with the rest of us ... ended up under the bridge.

Good thing there were bridges.
posted by philip-random at 11:27 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


Weren't they a wealthy textile family? Dying and tapestries and so forth?

I will see my way out.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 11:40 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


This is great. In recent campaigns I'd come to pity the little brutes and felt some remorse about the thousands I'd dispatched and the thousands more I am certain to in the decades ahead.

Now I can go back to killing Goblins without mercy.
posted by notyou at 11:41 AM on October 30, 2014


My non-Mefite goon friend posits another possibility, related to the r/K strategy, but with the idea that evolving in harmony with the mountainous regions (definitely the most sparsely populated of the basic lands) and revering dragons, Goblins basically could have found balance by selecting a single, dominant, but very rare apex predator who would prevent other predator groups from being able to form. Doesn't explain why they're so bad at stuff, but hey, Goblins gotta YOLO, you know?
posted by Navelgazer at 11:49 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


One of LotR's orc origin myths has them being elves or men corrupted utterly by Melkor and thus, I presume, unable to "rise" per se.

I believe the story on Tolkien's goblins is that they're the product of a similar process applied to dwarves, and the whole thing is just another facet of Tolkien's underlying racial essentialism.

Also, it is kind of funny that the Magic: the Gathering universe (multiverse, technically) already has its own sentient fungus people, the Thallids. Thallids are super boring, though, and calling them sentient might be an overstatement. They're just kind of heaps of moss that move around a little bit if memory serves. They've certainly got nothing on goblins for personality. D&D's Myconids are a lot more terrifying in a "could secretly rule the world or easily conquer it with their telepathy spores and weirdo zombies" sort of way.
posted by Copronymus at 12:11 PM on October 30, 2014


Goblins exist in as many realms as elves, which is to say basically all of them, because elves are the meth of fantasy—an addictive chemical substitute for real excitement and novelty. (Seriously. Elves. Not even once.)

And here I was already a Gladstone fan...

Seriously, fuck elves. If I ever ran into an OK Cupid profile that had Elves listed under any of the favorite things (except maybe food) I would next it as surely as someone who has Ayn Rand under favorite author.
posted by bswinburn at 12:12 PM on October 30, 2014 [3 favorites]


I think we have to assume that Orcs and Goblins are at the very least related, given you always get them together and their very similar physicality. Why don't we assume that Orcs are fertile and Goblins are not?

I propose that any given generation of fertile Orcs comes with a certain proportion of sterile Goblins - so many spores become Orcs, so many Goblins, there is some hormonal trigger that influences proportions, or something.

The Goblins serve to support the Orcs: Orcs with a number of Goblin siblings are better able to fight other Orc groups, capture resources, hunt/gather and so on. The Goblins benefit by helping Orcs to have more offspring, who share the Goblins' genes: their "nieces" and "nephews" are more likely to survive if they have expendable uncles/aunts who will happily sacrifice themselves.

Evolutionary biologists will recognise this set-up as the 1990s evolutionary-psychology explanation for male human homosexuality.
posted by alasdair at 12:37 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


Copronymus: "Thallids are super boring, though"

Because they came from a sad, boring expansion, Fallen Empires. Ugh. Ugh.
posted by boo_radley at 1:29 PM on October 30, 2014 [3 favorites]


So the fungus theory of reproduction does make for a good Designated Antagonist Species but it is not the only way to deal with with the hangover of Tolkien's ambiguity! James Stokoe's Orc Stain (a "wet, dripping fantasy comic") has another biological setup for a violent, short-lived society of single-sex monsters. GAZE UPON THIS! (Most definitely NSFW, unless you work at an orc penis shop.)
posted by ocular shenanigans at 1:30 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


There's this great roleplaying game from some years back called Ork!, where the players all play, well, Orks, and it delves into Ork culture and biology and stuff. It is amazingly silly fun. The book states that the purpose isn't to humanize the orks, but to monsterize the players. Fortunately, individual orks in that world are subject to so many ridiculous dangers that they rarely get to engage in any real evil against the "Squishy Men," the "Sour Men," or any of the assorted other Men their world is infested with.

Other facts:
* Orks have amazing digestion and can eat literally anything they can fit in their mouths, with the sole exception of broccoli. Orks that eat broccoli explode.
* Anything in their world that looks the slightest bit sciencey will almost immediately be eaten by a troll.
* Orks believe their god Krom will punish Orks who behave insufficently orky in life by being reincarnated as pinecones.
* And relevently: orks in that world reproduce, not by spores, but by budding. There's a whole hilarious section in the book devoted to this extremely painful and nearly always fatal time in an ork's life, which they call the Urg!, and the exclamation point is part of the word.
posted by JHarris at 1:33 PM on October 30, 2014 [11 favorites]


unless you work at an orc penis shop

Lucky guess!
posted by Navelgazer at 1:33 PM on October 30, 2014 [5 favorites]


Surely orc penis is actually the currency?
posted by Artw at 2:01 PM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


Because they came from a sad, boring expansion, Fallen Empires. Ugh. Ugh.

I want to like Fallen Empires because of the totally nihilistic backstory, and also because then I can feel better about always buying packs because it was always the cheapest booster at the local card shop.
posted by smasuch at 2:04 PM on October 30, 2014


Surely orc penis is actually the currency?

The noble orc has no conception of currency as we would understand it and knows only the maxim, "From each according to their penis, to each according to their need for orc penis."
posted by Copronymus at 2:30 PM on October 30, 2014 [4 favorites]


Dear god, JHarris. That game looks amazing. I don't get much of a chance to play RPGs these days, but man I want to play that based solely on this character sheet that the publisher has up for download.
posted by lumpenprole at 2:35 PM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yeah. I kind of want to play Ork! and nothing else now.
posted by Navelgazer at 2:42 PM on October 30, 2014


I'm currently running a fantasy RPG in a world with humans, orcs, elves, and goblins. The goblins are the perpetual underdog, the cave dwellers with such an overpopulation problem that they willingly sell themselves into slavery to the other races.

They are, of course, the only race of the four with anything approaching a moral society.
posted by 256 at 2:44 PM on October 30, 2014


Oh, and one of the party chose to play a goblin, and the rest of the party members are always making fun of him, which just goes to...
posted by 256 at 2:45 PM on October 30, 2014


I'm reminded of the circumcellions, a Christian sect in late antiquity whose members used to halfheartedly mug passers by in hopes that the victim would lash out and kill them, making them martyrs.

This is the single best thing I've ever read on Metafilter.


And it just keeps getting better (straight from Wikipedia):

"On occasion, members of this group assaulted Roman legionaries or armed travelers with simple wooden clubs to provoke them into attacking and martyring them. Others interrupted courts of law and verbally provoked the judge so that he would order their immediate execution (a normal punishment at the time for contempt of court) [...] the Circumcellions piously avoided bladed weapons and instead opted for the use of blunt clubs, which they called "Israelites." Using their "Israelites", the Circumcellions would attack random travelers on the road, while shouting "Laudate Deum!" ("Praise God!" in Latin.) The object of these random beatings was the death of the intrepid martyr, who sought to provoke the victim to attack and kill them [...]"
posted by pullayup at 3:01 PM on October 30, 2014 [9 favorites]


They couldn't use bladed weapons?
posted by Artw at 3:09 PM on October 30, 2014


Duh, they're clerics.
posted by murphy slaw at 3:15 PM on October 30, 2014 [24 favorites]


Best answer ever.
posted by Carillon at 3:21 PM on October 30, 2014


this goddamn thread
posted by boo_radley at 4:59 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


IIRC Warhammer Goblins and Orcs grow from spores, the original infestation being accidentally introduced by ancient space visitors

What can't ancient space visitors fuck up?
posted by echocollate at 5:54 PM on October 30, 2014 [3 favorites]


philip-random: were bridges

Not sure if Beau and Jeff Bridges' hairier brother or actual lycanthropic architecture.

(I think this awesome/weird thread is having an effect on me).
posted by comealongpole at 6:49 PM on October 30, 2014


Little green creatures with no primary or secondary sexual characteristics, who seek to spread their bodies to as many biomes as possible, often through spectacular explosions?

Goblins have the same reproductive strategy as Kerbals.
posted by Phssthpok at 8:12 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


I've had his Craft Sequence on my wishlist for months (based purely on the covers) but had never read anything by him before this. Excuse me while I go buy the first book…
posted by Lexica at 8:59 PM on October 30, 2014


Re: greenskin economics: every 40k gamer knows that teef are the center of orkish the economy.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:18 AM on October 31, 2014 [1 favorite]


There's a comedy pen-and-paper RPG called Goblin Quest where you play a group of inept goblins trying to complete a specific task. Not played it myself but I did listen to Shut Up & Sit Down playing the Sean Bean Quest variant (pretty much the same game except everyone plays different versions of Sean Bean - sexy Bean, Sharpe Bean, shooty Bean, etc). Anyway, it sounds like a laugh.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:35 AM on October 31, 2014 [1 favorite]


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