"Vengeance if necessary"

July 20, 2015 2:33 PM

Anonymous group hacktivists are mounting a campaign to avenge a man “in a Guy Fawkes mask” shot dead by Canadian police in British Columbia on Thursday after being mistaken for a suspect. Cyber-attacks have already hit national police websites.

Police were called to a disturbance at a restaurant where a man was protesting during a meeting about Site C, a controversial dam project. The man overturned tables but he was not the person shot by police.
RCMP claim the victim was holding a knife.
RCMP websites have been disrupted and the officer has been threatened with doxxing.Police claim the websites were down due to maintenance issues.
Anonymous has posted a photo that seems to show the victim wearing a Guy Fawkes mask. Police confirm that he was masked, have not confirmed Guy. Anonymous also links the victim to a First Nations Anonymous project.

posted by CCBC (33 comments total)

Mod note: A few comments deleted. Let's rewind and start off without hard-to-interpret references to other bad things; kind of got off on the wrong foot there.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:05 PM on July 20, 2015

*hands out Guy Fawkes masks to every black teenager in America*

What Anonymous is Doing in Ferguson [Time, 8/21/14]

After Ferguson Threat, Anonymous Removes the KKK’s hoods. Effective? [Christian Science Monitor, 11/19/14]

Tamir Rice Shooting Inspires Anonymous Hack On Cleveland Websites [International Business Times, 11/24/14]

Cyber Attack Hits Madison Police Department After Shooting of Unarmed Teen [Al Jazeera, 3/10/15]

Etc.
posted by ryanshepard at 3:06 PM on July 20, 2015 [6 favorites]

I used to travel to FSJ for work. People can be pretty edgy up there.

I'm not saying that this person deserved to get shot, but because of the oil patch and the gas fields there are a lot of drugs up there, and there can be a lot of attitude. FSJ has a different vibe than anywhere else I have been in the province and I am happy that I am no longer required to go there. I did like Dawson Creek and Tumbler Ridge, though.

Going back to FSJ, somebody claiming to be affiliated with ISIS was recently arrested in FSJ, so I think people are even more on edge than normal.
posted by Nevin at 3:10 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

This shooting was in Dawson Creek, not Fort St. John.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 3:29 PM on July 20, 2015

I'm not saying that this person deserved to get shot

Well, that's good, since the cops shot a random protester in mistake for another protester who was yelling and flipping tables. I've been to many a protest and back in the day, we used to think it was, like, police brutality when we just got beaten for being stroppy....I guess things have escalated to the point where it's okay if "nervous" cops shoot someone for flipping tables, and then it's just too bad if they shoot the wrong dude.

One can be on edge and even violently subdue a protester without shooting them, and I know, for lo I have been subdued violently, back in the day.
posted by Frowner at 3:30 PM on July 20, 2015 [45 favorites]

RCMP claim the victim was holding a knife.

The linked cell phone video corroborates this. One of the armed officers is seen, not kicking the victim, but kicking away an object that had been lying on the ground next to the victim. While one has to wonder if it would have been possible to de-escalate this situation without killing, shooting a masked man who is brandishing a weapon is not entirely without justification.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 3:33 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Well, that's good, since the cops shot a random protester in mistake for another protester who was yelling and flipping tables.

Maybe you have more information than I do, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of information about what happened here in BC. The protester was apparently holding a knife?

Are you from British Columbia? I don't think RT is a particularly credible source of information.
posted by Nevin at 3:34 PM on July 20, 2015

Vengeance if necessary

It won't be. It won't ever be.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:35 PM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

shooting a masked man who is brandishing a weapon is not entirely without justification.

That was sort of my point, although I would never ever say that the RCMP were justified in this case. I don't have enough information, and it's a tragedy this had to happen.

I was trying to say that people are on edge up there right now. And it's also sort of a wild west boom town atmosphere with lots of drugs, testosterone, guns and plenty of hatred for authority. I have experienced this hatred first-hand in FSJ.

However, if you think Russia Today has got all the answers, there is no possible way really to continue this discussion.
posted by Nevin at 3:38 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

It's kind of scary watching this level of police violence slowly spider its way into Canada. Not that it hasn't been here before--Metro Toronto police have a long history of taking suspects, often homeless or otherwise disadvantaged men, for a ride down to Cherry Beach and beating them.

It feels like there was a change, maybe with that poor guy who was Tasered to death at YVR? From there to the brutality at G20 to this in a few very short years.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:39 PM on July 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

This shooting was in Dawson Creek, not Fort St. John.

Site C affects communities to the west of FSJ.
posted by Nevin at 3:40 PM on July 20, 2015

My member of parliament (Blake Richards) is responsible for passing recent legislation making it illegal to wear a mask at a protest. It's a bit of a stretch, but I can't shake the feeling that the legislation contributed to this incident.
posted by furtive at 4:18 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

The Toronto Globe And Mail has repeated RT's assertion that the killing was in Dawson's Creek, and has also identified the victim as James MacIntyre.
posted by Flashman at 5:21 PM on July 20, 2015

So CBC TV news just reported that the RCMP gave the reason that the victim "refused to comply with orders" as their reason to shoot him.

The RCMP want this to be an acceptable reason to murder people.
posted by Space Coyote at 5:50 PM on July 20, 2015 [9 favorites]

Cool Papa Bell: It won't be. It won't ever be.

I wish I could agree. I would like very much for American society, and now apparently Canadian society, to change so that the police no longer simply murder people out of either spite, or incompetence, or just for fun. I desperately want that change to come about without violence.

But so far the governments of the US, and now apparently Canada as well, have systemically closed off all legal avenues for redressing that grievance. The police kill, and kill, and kill, and every time we are told that they acted properly and no crime was committed. Even when we have actual video of the murder, the police are literally getting away with murder.

If that situation doesn't change non-violently, then eventually yes, it will be necessary to use violence to bring about the change.

If my child, who is black and therefore on the cop hit list, is murdered by a police officer who then walked free I do not think I could be one of those people calling for calm and peace. I'd be calling for blood, and I'd be sorely tempted to seek it myself.

The situation as it exists is not sustainable. It will change. The only question is whether it will change as a result of people finally getting fed up and killing murderous police officers, or whether it will change as a result of laws and police policy and procedure changing.

I hope it will be the latter, I fear it will be the former.
posted by sotonohito at 5:53 PM on July 20, 2015 [10 favorites]

It should be noted that, like all police incidents in BC causing death or serious harm, this incident is being investigated by the Independent Investigations Office of BC, a civilian-led provincial investigative body. So that's good. 80% of the cases they've investigated to date have not resulted in charges, so that's maybe not so good.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 6:14 PM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

As an American, 80 percent actually sounds amazing to me.
posted by Naberius at 7:33 PM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

Maybe you have more information than I do, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of information about what happened here in BC. The protester was apparently holding a knife?


Very fair - I posted without thinking about the source. Reading about it really pushed some buttons for me due to past experience and I jumped to conclusions.
posted by Frowner at 7:36 PM on July 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

So that's good. 80% of the cases they've investigated to date have not resulted in charges, so that's maybe not so good.

3 things about this that are good.*

1. Civilian oversight. (!!)
2. 20% of cases they've investigated to date have resulted in charges (can you even imagine this happening in 5% of cases in the USA?).
3. Maybe, just maybe, the police force in BC uses deadly force/serious harm force far less frequently than their US counterparts... And maybe, just maybe they are most often justified when they do use it (maybe 80% of the time).

Ironically, if the system were working perfectly, 0% of the cases would result in charges; because force would always be used appropriately, cops would be generally trained to de-escalate.

* I'm playing devils advocate here. I am not a police apologist. I have no idea if #3 has any truth to it.
posted by el io at 9:13 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm in FSJ right now and the dam is a serious hot button topic for the whole Peace region. I listened to the most blatantly racist conversation I've heard in years between a local farmer and a thrift store owner the other day in regards to the ISIS arrest - "things sure we're better back in the day before all these colored people moved in eh?" -kinda thing.

I agree with Nevin. There's a really restless, seedy, dark angry undercurrent here the likes of which you don't really see elsewhere in the province. It might be in BC on the map but on the ground it feels more like Alberta.
posted by mannequito at 10:19 PM on July 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Sort of derail I guess, but yeah, while we're on the subject of Fort St. John, that place is so messed up it should be a sociologist's dream to study. Dawson Creek is more relaxed, but the whole Peace Region is kind of strange like that.

That may not have anything to do with the murder, err incident, but neither is it the first place where you would expect either terrorism or American style police brutality. Kind of world we're living in...
posted by blue shadows at 10:26 PM on July 20, 2015

Dawson Creek - and not Dawson's Creek, for god's sake, that's a television show - is not a town that's doing particularly well. But this situation is an utter mess regardless, and it's painful to see the dialogue be directed in the directions it's going.

From the post: "RCMP claim the victim was holding a knife."

The linked cell phone video corroborates this. One of the armed officers is seen, not kicking the victim, but kicking away an object that had been lying on the ground next to the victim. ...
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 6:33 PM on July 20 [1 favorite +] [!]

They're kicking away an object, not a knife. Let's not be led to any conclusions about what that object was.
posted by ZaphodB at 12:16 AM on July 21, 2015

Not to threadsit or anything, but this discussion has seemed to go sideways because the FPP was from Russia Today. That article was chosen because it had the most info on the Anonymous connection, including links to Anonymous statements on-line which I haven't seen elsewhere. And the Anonymous connection was the lede. The other links are from more accepted sources and the CBC link has an eyewitness saying that the guy had a knife. Okay?
posted by CCBC at 12:50 AM on July 21, 2015

Well no, that's not okay. Every article I can find on the event that suggests the deceased had any kind of weapon are all tied to that one specific eye witness. Eye witnesses are, as a matter of evidence at trial, worth just this side of nothing at all, and I'm profoundly uncomfortable with tying a ribbon around the case based on what one guy is saying. I'm not saying that the deceased didn't create the situation, and I'm not saying that he did; I'm just suggesting that this is far too early, and the matter too messy, for any easy conclusions.
posted by ZaphodB at 2:02 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

The linked cell phone video corroborates this. One of the armed officers is seen, not kicking the victim, but kicking away an object that had been lying on the ground next to the victim. While one has to wonder if it would have been possible to de-escalate this situation without killing, shooting a masked man who is brandishing a weapon is not entirely without justification.

Saying 'a weapon' conflates a knife with a firearm. They aren't at all the same. Using a ranged weapon to shoot someone holding a melee weapon largely is without justification; that's why we don't do it in the UK, and have very few dead officers. The ability to walk back makes it very hard to justify deadly force.

An example of doing things right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw
posted by jaduncan at 2:45 AM on July 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

It might be in BC on the map but on the ground it feels more like Alberta

I disagree. It most definitely feels like BC.

I mean, I get your point to an extent, but I'm also sensitive to the tendency to somehow disown the "bad" or "less desirable" or "unlike Vancouver" parts of BC by somehow labelling them as Actually Part of Alberta. Naw-it's BC, own it.
posted by beau jackson at 7:07 AM on July 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

Eye witnesses are, as a matter of evidence at trial, worth just this side of nothing at all

I really don't think this is the case. It obviously depends on the witness and what other evidence is available, but eye witnesses can be quite valuable.

I disagree. It most definitely feels like BC.

Yep. People in Vancouver like myself would do well to remember this. It's been a weird split of blue and orange for a long time, but there is a lot of blue consistently.
posted by Hoopo at 9:55 AM on July 21, 2015

Eyewitnesses valuable? Not so much.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:09 AM on July 21, 2015

It's often the only thing available, fff, and as such can be valuable at trial
posted by Hoopo at 10:16 AM on July 21, 2015

If one isn't super concerned about factuality, sure.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:21 AM on July 21, 2015

Big Pharma Hack: Anonymous Releases Pharma Shill Names
posted by jeffburdges at 10:50 AM on July 21, 2015

Maybe, just maybe, the police force in BC uses deadly force/serious harm force far less frequently than their US counterparts...

Less often than US cops, more often than cops in England. BC cops have shot and killed six people so far this year; a seventh died after being Tasered, and an eighth after a "physical struggle" with cops in which he was pepper sprayed. There have been cases in the past few years where cops have showed up when someone has been behaving "erratically" or threateningly, and then killed them within a minute or two of arriving on the scene.

A Vancouver reporter maintains a spreadsheet of police-involved deaths in BC if anyone is interested.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 11:26 AM on July 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

yelling and flipping tables

In good company, then.
posted by ymgve at 4:49 AM on July 22, 2015