Misunderstanding Japan
August 18, 2017 11:59 PM Subscribe
BBC Radio 4: Misunderstanding Japan "What images come into your head when you think of Japan?
Dr Christopher Harding explores how Western media representations of Japan, from the very first Victorian travellers through to Alan Whicker and Clive James, have revisited the same themes."
"Often portrayed as workaholics driven by a group mentality, with submissive women and bizarre crazes, Dr Harding asks whether many of these stereotypes have led to the country being misunderstood by people in the West.
Have the Japanese had a role in perpetuating some of these stereotypes in an effort to set themselves apart?
What do our images, feelings, fears and fantasies about Japan tell us about ourselves?"
"Often portrayed as workaholics driven by a group mentality, with submissive women and bizarre crazes, Dr Harding asks whether many of these stereotypes have led to the country being misunderstood by people in the West.
Have the Japanese had a role in perpetuating some of these stereotypes in an effort to set themselves apart?
What do our images, feelings, fears and fantasies about Japan tell us about ourselves?"
One thing I’ve learned over the past decade of living in Japan is that nearly all of the received wisdom for people coming to Japan is based on some white guy’s experience in the nineties, staying for a week or two, and also he didn’t speak any Japanese. People still think you can’t get toothpaste with fluoride — if anything, it’s easier to find toothpaste without fluoride in the US than in Japan.
What a lot of international coverage of Japan misses is that it’s mainly a country full of pretty ordinary people, and that “one, two, trend” usually skips the “two” in overseas coverage of Japan. It’s easy to not understand a lot about everyday Japan, because the American cultural hegemony largely doesn’t exist (the only American shows on Japanese broadcast TV are for children, and even these are few and far between) and most of the English you’ll encounter is decorative (and written by, and for, non-native speakers who don’t remember any more English than you remember of high school Spanish).
There are, of course, some legitimate differences about how pop culture should look. Japan, and to a larger extent east Asia in general, subscribes to the philosophy that things should probably be cute and approachable unless there’s a solid reason not to be. This may also be related to the fact that things like ‘90s-style fear of being seen caring, and sarcasm in general, simply not being things in Japan (I know, right? Somehow they missed the memo that being rude to people for no reason was actually the height of cleverness).
Japanese “game shows” are usually either late-night programming, some one-off segment on a variety show, or a porno. The “the commercials are so wacky” meme is based on a sample roughly akin to the assumption that every commercial in the US is “Robert Goulet sneaks into your office.” There are plenty of dumb, boring commercials on Japanese TV. They just don’t tend to wind up being remembered, much less shared overseas.
On the other hand… sigh. Sometimes you make it hard, Japan.
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:08 AM on August 19, 2017 [30 favorites]
What a lot of international coverage of Japan misses is that it’s mainly a country full of pretty ordinary people, and that “one, two, trend” usually skips the “two” in overseas coverage of Japan. It’s easy to not understand a lot about everyday Japan, because the American cultural hegemony largely doesn’t exist (the only American shows on Japanese broadcast TV are for children, and even these are few and far between) and most of the English you’ll encounter is decorative (and written by, and for, non-native speakers who don’t remember any more English than you remember of high school Spanish).
There are, of course, some legitimate differences about how pop culture should look. Japan, and to a larger extent east Asia in general, subscribes to the philosophy that things should probably be cute and approachable unless there’s a solid reason not to be. This may also be related to the fact that things like ‘90s-style fear of being seen caring, and sarcasm in general, simply not being things in Japan (I know, right? Somehow they missed the memo that being rude to people for no reason was actually the height of cleverness).
Japanese “game shows” are usually either late-night programming, some one-off segment on a variety show, or a porno. The “the commercials are so wacky” meme is based on a sample roughly akin to the assumption that every commercial in the US is “Robert Goulet sneaks into your office.” There are plenty of dumb, boring commercials on Japanese TV. They just don’t tend to wind up being remembered, much less shared overseas.
On the other hand… sigh. Sometimes you make it hard, Japan.
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:08 AM on August 19, 2017 [30 favorites]
My own misunderstanding of Japan, as fostered through a somewhat higher than normal consumption of anime & manga etc is:
Socially conservative, especially with regards to gender roles, with a much stricter hierarchy in everyday working and school life than in the Netherlands
High school as the last chance to be yourself, before having to restrict yourself to a rigid working life, an exhausting grind that'll completely dominate your life
A yearning for the countryside and lamenting off the disappearance of small town rural life (as seen in currently airing Sakura Quest or the excellent Non Non Biyori)
Similarly, a fascination with its own traditional art forms especially when performed by cute high school girls
Not to mention the trappings of traditional Japanese life, shrine visits and such, though adults who adhere to strict traditionalism, dress traditionally and live in big fuckoff traditional houses are always evil or at best misguided in their attempts to marry off their daughters
Nerds/otaku as antisocial losers who are only interested in 2D girls but who are still somehow special enought hat if they're the protagonist, every girl in the vicinity will throw themselves at their bland asses
Superb public transport and a distribution system so efficient it can support vending machines in the middle of the countryside
An obsession with the idea of Japan as a peace sodden nation that must be woken from its slumber to realise how bad the world was -- but please don't mention the war
Also a deep fascination with the Warring States Era, especially with Oda Nobunaga, especially with Oda Nobunaga as a cute high school girl.
posted by MartinWisse at 3:59 AM on August 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
Socially conservative, especially with regards to gender roles, with a much stricter hierarchy in everyday working and school life than in the Netherlands
High school as the last chance to be yourself, before having to restrict yourself to a rigid working life, an exhausting grind that'll completely dominate your life
A yearning for the countryside and lamenting off the disappearance of small town rural life (as seen in currently airing Sakura Quest or the excellent Non Non Biyori)
Similarly, a fascination with its own traditional art forms especially when performed by cute high school girls
Not to mention the trappings of traditional Japanese life, shrine visits and such, though adults who adhere to strict traditionalism, dress traditionally and live in big fuckoff traditional houses are always evil or at best misguided in their attempts to marry off their daughters
Nerds/otaku as antisocial losers who are only interested in 2D girls but who are still somehow special enought hat if they're the protagonist, every girl in the vicinity will throw themselves at their bland asses
Superb public transport and a distribution system so efficient it can support vending machines in the middle of the countryside
An obsession with the idea of Japan as a peace sodden nation that must be woken from its slumber to realise how bad the world was -- but please don't mention the war
Also a deep fascination with the Warring States Era, especially with Oda Nobunaga, especially with Oda Nobunaga as a cute high school girl.
posted by MartinWisse at 3:59 AM on August 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
I don’t even know where to start
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:03 AM on August 19, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:03 AM on August 19, 2017 [20 favorites]
I've visited twice, for a total duration of two months of my life, and I'd like to visit again (except the exchange rate really sucks this decade). Here are my first impressions (from 2007). There's another essay-piece somewhere in my archives (commissioned by Hayakawa's SF magazine—that self-reflection-in-a-foreigners-eye thing at work, I guess) and I'll try and pull it together on the web somewhere.
TLDR: they're people, not so different from us, but from a land where history took a different course and path-dependency led to some very strange—to western eyes—outcomes. (Like half the country running on AC power at 60Hz, and the other half running at 50Hz: I'm not making that up.) And—I am speculating wildly here—some emergent social-historical process makes florid expressions of individuality feel risky, so they present as more outwardly conformist while holding back their eccentricity until they know you.
posted by cstross at 4:29 AM on August 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
TLDR: they're people, not so different from us, but from a land where history took a different course and path-dependency led to some very strange—to western eyes—outcomes. (Like half the country running on AC power at 60Hz, and the other half running at 50Hz: I'm not making that up.) And—I am speculating wildly here—some emergent social-historical process makes florid expressions of individuality feel risky, so they present as more outwardly conformist while holding back their eccentricity until they know you.
posted by cstross at 4:29 AM on August 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Everything I know about Japan, I learned from Soko Ga Shiritai and Abarenbo Shogun.
posted by tobascodagama at 4:39 AM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 4:39 AM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
I've been to Japan twice and if I had to describe it in one word it would be mastery. Japan studies, understands and respects what things are, masters them and makes them better for the collective good. This can be something complex like a bridge or subway system, or something more seemly trivial like a croissant, pastry or cafe.
posted by floweredfish at 5:09 AM on August 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by floweredfish at 5:09 AM on August 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
I heard this programme when it was first podcasted (which tends to be how I hear Radio 4 programmes these days), I and I did think it was very good.
My own relationship with the country is very solidly in the "some white guy’s experience ... staying for a week or two, and also he didn’t speak any Japanese" territory, although I've been a number of times in the last ten years, to visit the in-laws (my wife is from Kobe). So, for the first couple of times I came back with a commentary that was very much along those traditional lines, and which I'm a bit embarrassed about now. It's not so much that the commentary was wrong as that it was based on just noticing very obvious things and extrapolating from there to the culture at large, while flattering myself with a perspicacity and penetrating intelligence abroad that I don't display at home.
The first things that struck me were:
One thing I do notice is that my wife (and other Japanese women I know), although they love Japan and Japanese culture, would very much not want to live there, much preferring even the Brexit-freefall UK.
Personally, though, I've little or no interest in manga or anime (other than the usual suspects - Akira, GItS, Ghibli). My favourite aspects of Japanese culture over the last few years have been Nakata Yasutaka (producer of Perfume, Kyary Pamyu Pamyu and other electronic delights) and Shiina Ringo, who I can't quite locate descriptively at all (although technically accurate, it doesn't seem to work to call her either a pop star or a rock star or a singer-songwriter or all of those things).
My wife, interestingly, doesn't so much dislike Shiina Ringo as disapprove of her, for reasons I can't quite place (I have asked, but the conversation gets a bit fractious so it's best avoided). Perhaps it's related to the fact that, when asked to produce an official song for NHK's coverage of the Football World Cup a few years ago, she came up with what sounds to me like a nationalist anthem. A fantastically catchy nationalist anthem, though. As someone who encounters Japanese culture glancingly and occasionally, I'm very struck by the way she often juxtaposes the very "Western" with traditional imagery and iconography in a way that I've not really seen elsewhere in popular Japanese culture - there's a photo of her on the packaging for her masterpiece Karuki Samen Kuri no hana dressed in traditional kimono while holding a Flying V which catches it in some ways. On the other hand, there's something like Irohanihoheto - the title and lyrics heavily allude to classical Japanese poetry, the video shows a traditional village festival, but the song itself is a wonderful bit of jangly pop. I do think it's worth noting her considerable confidence, influence and self-determination in a culture that seems to be particularly suppressive of women, especially as she seems to be becoming more respectable as she gets older (as far as I can tell, she's one of the directors for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics having worked on the handover show for Rio 2016).
But no manga for me: never trust anyone whose eyes are bigger than their mouth. FWIW, the movies that resonate most closely with my sense of Japan - just the vibe as much as any particular details -are those of the director Hirokazu Koreeda.
I hope this hasn't been to much of a deraily ramble. Good radio programme, anyway.
posted by Grangousier at 5:56 AM on August 19, 2017 [17 favorites]
My own relationship with the country is very solidly in the "some white guy’s experience ... staying for a week or two, and also he didn’t speak any Japanese" territory, although I've been a number of times in the last ten years, to visit the in-laws (my wife is from Kobe). So, for the first couple of times I came back with a commentary that was very much along those traditional lines, and which I'm a bit embarrassed about now. It's not so much that the commentary was wrong as that it was based on just noticing very obvious things and extrapolating from there to the culture at large, while flattering myself with a perspicacity and penetrating intelligence abroad that I don't display at home.
The first things that struck me were:
- Even very ordinary things will often be beautiful and carefully made, and even very ordinary activities will be enacted with care and skill (I still notice this, so perhaps it's true, and one nice thing is that it does act as an inspiration to try harder when I'm at home.)
- The culture seems to be largely about food. If there's one word that I associated with Japan it's mmm-oishii! The "mmm-" there is a necessary part of the word, and it's what any television personality will say when asked to sample something, no matter how bizarre. That said, the food I've eaten there has been uniformly excellent, even (for what it is) at Mosburger.
- I found the tendency for women in the media to have their eyelids operated on to make their eyes more "western" a bit disturbing, until I realised it was none of my damn business.
- Actually, the public transport I've experienced has been excellent, too. Although the buses can sometimes be a little crowded, they and the trains - from the local lines up to the shinkansen - are clean, comfortable and efficient. Public transport seems to be the primary way that people get around (in the UK, outside of the cities, the primary means of transport seems to be the private car.
- You can still find CD stores all over the place (Tower Records, even). This must mean something, though I'm at a loss to say what, although I'm sure I had some patronising theories as one point.
- For a while I did feel very self-conscious as a non-Japanese person. This was an aspect of my psyche I'm less than proud of, not un-connected to the fact that I felt very cool just being in Japan. Then I realised that for everybody else around me, being in Japan was something they just did every day, and it was neither cool nor not cool, and perhaps I should sort my head out
- On the whole the culture reminded me of the UK of a few decades ago, before everything was reduced to the minimum of quality of materials and workmanship in order to maximise shareholder returns - although places may seem a little overstaffed by UK standards, actually that makes the experience for users a little more pleasant, with a lot less friction.
- There's a license to a kind of open-hearted enthusiasm for whatever - through my wife, I've tended to meet stationery enthusiasts, but I'm aware of the tendency across all sorts of things and in all age groups. Although such enthusiasm exists in the UK, there's also a tendency to regard such people with suspicion and cynicism - dismissing them as trainspotters - in a way that I've not really perceived in Japan, partly because it's so widespread. My wife often meets up with theatre-otaku friends who regularly travel all the way around the world to go to the theatre in London. I accept that people everywhere have hobbies, though. This is one I'm still working out - whether it's just an ideal I'm projecting on this other culture. Generally, though, cynicism seems to be less valued in Japan than it is in the UK or the US.
One thing I do notice is that my wife (and other Japanese women I know), although they love Japan and Japanese culture, would very much not want to live there, much preferring even the Brexit-freefall UK.
Personally, though, I've little or no interest in manga or anime (other than the usual suspects - Akira, GItS, Ghibli). My favourite aspects of Japanese culture over the last few years have been Nakata Yasutaka (producer of Perfume, Kyary Pamyu Pamyu and other electronic delights) and Shiina Ringo, who I can't quite locate descriptively at all (although technically accurate, it doesn't seem to work to call her either a pop star or a rock star or a singer-songwriter or all of those things).
My wife, interestingly, doesn't so much dislike Shiina Ringo as disapprove of her, for reasons I can't quite place (I have asked, but the conversation gets a bit fractious so it's best avoided). Perhaps it's related to the fact that, when asked to produce an official song for NHK's coverage of the Football World Cup a few years ago, she came up with what sounds to me like a nationalist anthem. A fantastically catchy nationalist anthem, though. As someone who encounters Japanese culture glancingly and occasionally, I'm very struck by the way she often juxtaposes the very "Western" with traditional imagery and iconography in a way that I've not really seen elsewhere in popular Japanese culture - there's a photo of her on the packaging for her masterpiece Karuki Samen Kuri no hana dressed in traditional kimono while holding a Flying V which catches it in some ways. On the other hand, there's something like Irohanihoheto - the title and lyrics heavily allude to classical Japanese poetry, the video shows a traditional village festival, but the song itself is a wonderful bit of jangly pop. I do think it's worth noting her considerable confidence, influence and self-determination in a culture that seems to be particularly suppressive of women, especially as she seems to be becoming more respectable as she gets older (as far as I can tell, she's one of the directors for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics having worked on the handover show for Rio 2016).
But no manga for me: never trust anyone whose eyes are bigger than their mouth. FWIW, the movies that resonate most closely with my sense of Japan - just the vibe as much as any particular details -are those of the director Hirokazu Koreeda.
I hope this hasn't been to much of a deraily ramble. Good radio programme, anyway.
posted by Grangousier at 5:56 AM on August 19, 2017 [17 favorites]
not so much that the commentary was wrong as that it was based on just noticing very obvious things and extrapolating from there to the culture at large, while flattering myself with a perspicacity and penetrating intelligence abroad that I don't display at home
I wrote two years of blog posts while living there that the above description doesn't so much nail as utterly crucify, so, you know, it could have been worse. Cringe.
posted by ominous_paws at 6:03 AM on August 19, 2017 [13 favorites]
I wrote two years of blog posts while living there that the above description doesn't so much nail as utterly crucify, so, you know, it could have been worse. Cringe.
posted by ominous_paws at 6:03 AM on August 19, 2017 [13 favorites]
Haven't heard the podcast yet, and can't right now, but I am looking forward to it because for years I didn't go to Japan because some of my friends were perpetuating this IMO depressing image of the country they had visited. It wasn't a place I'd ever want to go. Then finally I went there for work, with two japanophile male friends and they were getting off on all their fetishes and directing our group from cliché to cliché. But already the first night we were there, I realized I could just take another route from them and see something completely different. Now I want to go back.
posted by mumimor at 7:42 AM on August 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 7:42 AM on August 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
Are we going to get some comments that about are actually discussing these misunderstandings, and why they exist, or is this thread just going to be about repeating horrible stereotypes?
posted by suedehead at 7:43 AM on August 19, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by suedehead at 7:43 AM on August 19, 2017 [15 favorites]
On the other hand… sigh. Sometimes you make it hard, Japan.
Not that I know what is going on with that dude in that outfit, but is he any kind of Japanese equivalent to England's Lord Buckethead?
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:44 AM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Not that I know what is going on with that dude in that outfit, but is he any kind of Japanese equivalent to England's Lord Buckethead?
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:44 AM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Socially conservative, especially with regards to gender roles
This is not a misunderstanding, at least with regard to gender roles. Japan consistently ranks very, very low on measures of gender equality. Anecdotally, as with Grangousier above, my wife who is Japanese has immense affection for and pride in Japan but left in large part because working as a woman there (an attorney in her case) was extremely frustrating and sometimes humiliating, on top of all the social pressures and ideas about what women should be or do.
That's not to say the US where we live is a paradise of equality, just that Japan does have some very serious issues when it comes to gender inequality.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:56 AM on August 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
This is not a misunderstanding, at least with regard to gender roles. Japan consistently ranks very, very low on measures of gender equality. Anecdotally, as with Grangousier above, my wife who is Japanese has immense affection for and pride in Japan but left in large part because working as a woman there (an attorney in her case) was extremely frustrating and sometimes humiliating, on top of all the social pressures and ideas about what women should be or do.
That's not to say the US where we live is a paradise of equality, just that Japan does have some very serious issues when it comes to gender inequality.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:56 AM on August 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
Not going to add anything substantive here, but the one thing I think about Japan is restaurants where you order at a vending machine and never have to talk to anyone. Man, what a joy that is.
posted by Literaryhero at 7:58 AM on August 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Literaryhero at 7:58 AM on August 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Soko Ga Shiritai
I learned more about Japan watching that show on KDOC in LA 90-92 than living in Tokyo 1992-2000.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:10 AM on August 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
I learned more about Japan watching that show on KDOC in LA 90-92 than living in Tokyo 1992-2000.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:10 AM on August 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Are we going to get some comments that about are actually discussing these misunderstandings
I assume your own contribution must have been inadvertently deleted by a wayward mod?
posted by ominous_paws at 8:44 AM on August 19, 2017 [11 favorites]
I assume your own contribution must have been inadvertently deleted by a wayward mod?
posted by ominous_paws at 8:44 AM on August 19, 2017 [11 favorites]
Honestly, everyone should just go watch some Ozu. You'll come away with the notion that Japan is exactly like America, only with thinner walls.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:49 AM on August 19, 2017
posted by Sys Rq at 9:49 AM on August 19, 2017
Uh, Sys Rq, not quite.
One of my favorite blogs is this (large) black guy who was teaching English there for several years in their schools (the Jet program?). His posts are frequently hilarious and it's there where I learned about the school game that was really popular there (and in south east Asia?) called "Kancho Assassin". That is where these 10-12 year old kids sneak up behind him (and others) hold their hands together in the right way and try to shove their paired forefingers up his butt. I like a lot of his other stuff as well. A representative post.
posted by aleph at 10:00 AM on August 19, 2017
One of my favorite blogs is this (large) black guy who was teaching English there for several years in their schools (the Jet program?). His posts are frequently hilarious and it's there where I learned about the school game that was really popular there (and in south east Asia?) called "Kancho Assassin". That is where these 10-12 year old kids sneak up behind him (and others) hold their hands together in the right way and try to shove their paired forefingers up his butt. I like a lot of his other stuff as well. A representative post.
posted by aleph at 10:00 AM on August 19, 2017
Though the posts (about that game) *were* over 10 years ago so it may not be common now.
posted by aleph at 10:19 AM on August 19, 2017
posted by aleph at 10:19 AM on August 19, 2017
I'm at the part about karate being a lethal martial art that can kill you by hitting seven pressure points Kenshiro-style and I'm like what.
posted by sukeban at 11:45 AM on August 19, 2017
posted by sukeban at 11:45 AM on August 19, 2017
"But surely", I said, "the real Japan must exist someplace or other if you look around for it."
He shook his head.
"Is there no way to save it" I wondered.
"No, he said, "there is nothing left to save."
-Donald Richie, in conversation with Yukio Mishima (1970)
posted by clavdivs at 11:59 AM on August 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
He shook his head.
"Is there no way to save it" I wondered.
"No, he said, "there is nothing left to save."
-Donald Richie, in conversation with Yukio Mishima (1970)
posted by clavdivs at 11:59 AM on August 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
The funny thing about that conversation is that Mishima also conceived of a fantasy Japan that didn't exist, and died that very year trying to create it, just a fantasy Japan of a non-Western bent.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:24 PM on August 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Sangermaine at 12:24 PM on August 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
I'm at the bit about You Only Live Twice and submissive women. Meanwhile in traditional Japan this. The Hibotan Bakuto series are in the "chivalrous yakuza" movie genre which are more fantasy than any other thing but come on.
On the subject of geisha, the worst thing is that they are anything but doormats and they weren't either in the Meiji period, even-- the patriots of the Restoration used to gather in entertainment districts and many of them ended up marrying the geisha they had befriended then. The courage of Ikumatsu in protecting the future Kido Takayoshi when he was on the run is still remembered in media set in the Restoration, and Ito Hirobumi to quote another influential Meiji politician also married a geisha, Umeko (Ito was also a patron of the famous geisha and theater innovator Sadayacco, by the way). And although a waitress rather than a geisha, Oryo also saved her boyfriend Sakamoto Ryoma's life.
The thing is that at the time, good girls from samurai households were educated to be retiring and not talk to strangers (while at the same time having *total control* about the management of the household which is an aspect that is also overlooked), while geisha were party entertainers whose main job was giving conversation (and being savvy enough in politics and current matters to be able to do that) and so were the exact right kind of wife to have around in Victorian age diplomatic dinners. Geisha were a pioneering sort back then and, dressed in Western ballgowns, key participants in Rokumeikan diplomacy.
A good book that contrasts the doormat stereotype with biographies of actual Japanese women is Butterfly's Sisters by Yoko Kawaguchi. Other books are the autobiography of Mineko Iwasaki, Liza Dalby's Geisha and Lesley Downer's Women of the Pleasure Quarters.
Anyway. In case anyone's curious, the podcast illustration is a shinkansen car full of maiko (apprentice geisha, nowadays usually between 15 and 20 years old), who are wearing willow and hydrangea hair ornaments for June and also kimono raincoats for the June rains.
posted by sukeban at 12:56 PM on August 19, 2017 [11 favorites]
On the subject of geisha, the worst thing is that they are anything but doormats and they weren't either in the Meiji period, even-- the patriots of the Restoration used to gather in entertainment districts and many of them ended up marrying the geisha they had befriended then. The courage of Ikumatsu in protecting the future Kido Takayoshi when he was on the run is still remembered in media set in the Restoration, and Ito Hirobumi to quote another influential Meiji politician also married a geisha, Umeko (Ito was also a patron of the famous geisha and theater innovator Sadayacco, by the way). And although a waitress rather than a geisha, Oryo also saved her boyfriend Sakamoto Ryoma's life.
The thing is that at the time, good girls from samurai households were educated to be retiring and not talk to strangers (while at the same time having *total control* about the management of the household which is an aspect that is also overlooked), while geisha were party entertainers whose main job was giving conversation (and being savvy enough in politics and current matters to be able to do that) and so were the exact right kind of wife to have around in Victorian age diplomatic dinners. Geisha were a pioneering sort back then and, dressed in Western ballgowns, key participants in Rokumeikan diplomacy.
A good book that contrasts the doormat stereotype with biographies of actual Japanese women is Butterfly's Sisters by Yoko Kawaguchi. Other books are the autobiography of Mineko Iwasaki, Liza Dalby's Geisha and Lesley Downer's Women of the Pleasure Quarters.
Anyway. In case anyone's curious, the podcast illustration is a shinkansen car full of maiko (apprentice geisha, nowadays usually between 15 and 20 years old), who are wearing willow and hydrangea hair ornaments for June and also kimono raincoats for the June rains.
posted by sukeban at 12:56 PM on August 19, 2017 [11 favorites]
/spot the nerd who got into Japanese history because of Rurouni Kenshin
posted by sukeban at 1:00 PM on August 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by sukeban at 1:00 PM on August 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
What I've taken from this program is that Westerners can blame our poor image in Japan on the Dutch.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:02 PM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Sangermaine at 1:02 PM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
the fucking Dutch!
posted by thelonius at 1:14 PM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 1:14 PM on August 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think highlighting AKB48 not being allowed to have boyfriends without also mentioning Johnny's Entertainment (an agency that manages some of the country's most popular boy bands like Arashi or SMAP with a similar iron hand) is a little bit disingenuous. Also, Japanese entertainment is hell.
posted by sukeban at 1:19 PM on August 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by sukeban at 1:19 PM on August 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
Let’s all take a moment to bear in mind that any “familiarity” developed primarily through movies and TV shows is fundamentally akin to deciding you’re pretty sure you know how the UK is because you’ve seen the London olympics opening ceremony. I was originally going to say “you know how American society works because you’ve seen RoboCop” but that’s actually less and less of an over-the-top satire as time goes on. Maybe musicals, with their unrealistic theatricality, would be a good comparison? Shrug. Whatever.
Like, I’ve lived in Japan for nearly a decade and have been fluent in the language (though not the culture — that takes far, far longer) basically that whole time, and even after that length of time I merely feel like I’m starting to get a grasp on non-superficial parts of society. And I had the major advantage of working at schools for five years, which, if you spend your time there wisely (and speak the language) is a good chance to develop a familiarity with stuff that’s at least a little less superficial.
On the other hand, it’s really hard to develop cultural fluency in a society that shares virtually nothing with the one you grew up in — History and literature have more than enough domestic supply to meet any and all demand. You’ve never heard of any of the nostalgic chart-toppers, famous comedians, or favorite novels routinely referred to. Hit American TV shows are basically only available on DVDs at the rental shops or on cable TV (which is still very much a luxury rather than the 90%-of/households thing it is in the US). In a nutshell, Japan is a country where the Simpsons are known, if anything, as characters from a short-lived series of commercials for lemon soda.
Cultural literacy is hard enough when it’s another European society that shares a lot of history and other background. Even a Muslim country still has shared religious history that someone who grew up in the US or other predominantly Christian society would have at least some familiarity with. The challenge with Japan is that it ratchets the “Island society” thing up to eleven, and every white man who can read both sets of kana and has seen a couple Ghibli movies is automatically an expert in his own estimation, based largely on stereotypes and deliberately exaggerated entertainment media.
tl;dr: Cultural literacy is much harder than linguistic fluency, and it’s especially hard in Japan because it’s perhaps the one world-power-level “developed” country that has the least in common, culturally, with any given Euro-centric country/culture.
posted by DoctorFedora at 2:48 PM on August 19, 2017 [19 favorites]
Like, I’ve lived in Japan for nearly a decade and have been fluent in the language (though not the culture — that takes far, far longer) basically that whole time, and even after that length of time I merely feel like I’m starting to get a grasp on non-superficial parts of society. And I had the major advantage of working at schools for five years, which, if you spend your time there wisely (and speak the language) is a good chance to develop a familiarity with stuff that’s at least a little less superficial.
On the other hand, it’s really hard to develop cultural fluency in a society that shares virtually nothing with the one you grew up in — History and literature have more than enough domestic supply to meet any and all demand. You’ve never heard of any of the nostalgic chart-toppers, famous comedians, or favorite novels routinely referred to. Hit American TV shows are basically only available on DVDs at the rental shops or on cable TV (which is still very much a luxury rather than the 90%-of/households thing it is in the US). In a nutshell, Japan is a country where the Simpsons are known, if anything, as characters from a short-lived series of commercials for lemon soda.
Cultural literacy is hard enough when it’s another European society that shares a lot of history and other background. Even a Muslim country still has shared religious history that someone who grew up in the US or other predominantly Christian society would have at least some familiarity with. The challenge with Japan is that it ratchets the “Island society” thing up to eleven, and every white man who can read both sets of kana and has seen a couple Ghibli movies is automatically an expert in his own estimation, based largely on stereotypes and deliberately exaggerated entertainment media.
tl;dr: Cultural literacy is much harder than linguistic fluency, and it’s especially hard in Japan because it’s perhaps the one world-power-level “developed” country that has the least in common, culturally, with any given Euro-centric country/culture.
posted by DoctorFedora at 2:48 PM on August 19, 2017 [19 favorites]
Living in Japan has also been a good way to learn I’m not even that familiar with European culture — Moomin is SUCH A THING in Japan, but being American, I’d never even heard of nor seen the comics.
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:18 PM on August 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:18 PM on August 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
I agree wholeheartedly with Grangousier's wife re Ringo Shiina. I'm Japanese and I'm really turned off by her deep involvement in and alignment with various government-led endeavors. She commented in a recent interview with the Asahi Shimbun that all Japanese people and media and companies should work together as one to make the Olympics succeed because working together as a group is the Japanese way. I'm paraphrasing, but I think she's playing with fire the way she uses and glamorizes a lot of imagery from times before WWI and II when Japan was more of a totalitarian state on its way to war. A few years back I would have given her benefit of a doubt because she's always been an edgy kind of mainstream artist, but now I don't think she's being ironic about the stuff she's putting out and it's not funny anymore.
posted by misozaki at 5:32 PM on August 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by misozaki at 5:32 PM on August 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
Japanese entertainment is hell only if all you're looking at is Music Station every week.
posted by misozaki at 5:42 PM on August 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by misozaki at 5:42 PM on August 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
(This is a lovely conversation.
What strikes me is how, despite having many, many things in common just because we're all humans, a western country (say the US), and Japan have cultures that are in many ways impenetrable to each other, and when there is "understanding" it's often only at a most superficial level.
This isn't bad, in fact, it's really cool. But I leapt from there to contemplating "space aliens" and I am convinced we probably wouldn't recognize one if we saw it, and definitely would have almost no chance of understanding it, ever.)
posted by maxwelton at 7:45 PM on August 19, 2017
What strikes me is how, despite having many, many things in common just because we're all humans, a western country (say the US), and Japan have cultures that are in many ways impenetrable to each other, and when there is "understanding" it's often only at a most superficial level.
This isn't bad, in fact, it's really cool. But I leapt from there to contemplating "space aliens" and I am convinced we probably wouldn't recognize one if we saw it, and definitely would have almost no chance of understanding it, ever.)
posted by maxwelton at 7:45 PM on August 19, 2017
and died that very year trying to create it, just a fantasy Japan of a non-Western bent.
Well, that explains everything, like the contribution to literature and those "Nobel" people, crazy westerners. And boy-howdy, when you attempt to over through the government one wonders if such Fantasy is more dangerous to progressive thought then say, the Shoguns new boots.
posted by clavdivs at 11:06 PM on August 19, 2017
Well, that explains everything, like the contribution to literature and those "Nobel" people, crazy westerners. And boy-howdy, when you attempt to over through the government one wonders if such Fantasy is more dangerous to progressive thought then say, the Shoguns new boots.
posted by clavdivs at 11:06 PM on August 19, 2017
I came here to bring to folks' attention the term Nihonjinron (wikipedia), which is their version, kinda, of American Exceptionalism.
posted by anateus at 11:28 PM on August 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by anateus at 11:28 PM on August 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Hoo boy, Japan still has plenty of that. Much like the US, Japan is of the belief that it is somehow uniquely unique, the sole differentiated country in a world consisting largely of otherwise interchangeable nations. You also can’t throw a stone without hitting a tourism information rack containing pamphlets boasting of Japan’s four distinct seasons, as though that were something that the rest of the world has only heard of in stories.
There’s definitely an unhealthily insular sort of thinking that is at least popularly represented in Japanese media, if not actually shared among the populace, and it is pervasive.
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:02 AM on August 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
There’s definitely an unhealthily insular sort of thinking that is at least popularly represented in Japanese media, if not actually shared among the populace, and it is pervasive.
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:02 AM on August 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Incidentally, on the nationalism-flavored ugliness mentioned earlier on, there’s still this vague yet distinct conviction in Japan that, even if Germany’s perspective on World War II is now “wow, we sure done beefed it on this one,” somewhere along the way in the past half a century, Japan seems to ha e decided that WWII was a terrible thing that just sort of unavoidably happened to Japan, like a natural disaster of some sort. There was nothing anyone could have done about it! You know how it is.
This lack of any real reflection on how the Pacific War came to happe may be quite closely related to things like how Japan has had a fairly right-wing government for most of the postwar era, and indeed the scandals coming to a slow boil about the prime minister’s connections to private schools that teach very nationalist revisionist history indeed. It may also be related to the fact that you can go to shops in major cities that sell actual WWII-era uniforms and medals and stuff, and buy an ACTUAL FUCKING NAZI TRENCHCOAT OR SS PIN, which I find terrifying when I think about it for very long. Like, there’s a place in Osaka on one of the city’s biggest shopping streets where you can buy things like actual WWII medals and emblems and coats and stuff, mostly from the Axis countries because, y’know, that’s the side Japan was on. It’s not like anyone would actually be seen wearing any of that sort of stuff in public (it’s regarded, at best, as basically cosplay), but there’s still something deeply unwholesome about that stuff being just… out there, for sale.
Japan’s renunciation of war in Article IX seems to have led the population as a whole to just sort of decide in the decades since that war is a fake idea, and the non-atomic-bomb-related parts of WWII are treated with roughly the same amount of concern and tact as Pewdiepie finding out just how far he can get the guys he’s paying a few dollars to go. Consequently you have stuff like Kancolle, which is… well, I sure can’t explain it. Maybe Japan just hit on a rich seam of Weird Dad that needs to be fed with an obsession with WWII.
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:16 AM on August 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
This lack of any real reflection on how the Pacific War came to happe may be quite closely related to things like how Japan has had a fairly right-wing government for most of the postwar era, and indeed the scandals coming to a slow boil about the prime minister’s connections to private schools that teach very nationalist revisionist history indeed. It may also be related to the fact that you can go to shops in major cities that sell actual WWII-era uniforms and medals and stuff, and buy an ACTUAL FUCKING NAZI TRENCHCOAT OR SS PIN, which I find terrifying when I think about it for very long. Like, there’s a place in Osaka on one of the city’s biggest shopping streets where you can buy things like actual WWII medals and emblems and coats and stuff, mostly from the Axis countries because, y’know, that’s the side Japan was on. It’s not like anyone would actually be seen wearing any of that sort of stuff in public (it’s regarded, at best, as basically cosplay), but there’s still something deeply unwholesome about that stuff being just… out there, for sale.
Japan’s renunciation of war in Article IX seems to have led the population as a whole to just sort of decide in the decades since that war is a fake idea, and the non-atomic-bomb-related parts of WWII are treated with roughly the same amount of concern and tact as Pewdiepie finding out just how far he can get the guys he’s paying a few dollars to go. Consequently you have stuff like Kancolle, which is… well, I sure can’t explain it. Maybe Japan just hit on a rich seam of Weird Dad that needs to be fed with an obsession with WWII.
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:16 AM on August 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
Yeah, this pervasive cluelessness regarding Nazis surfaces in J-League games a lot for some reason. I can't find an English link that elaborates on this, but the guy (Japanese link) who was punished for doing this apparently couldn't understand why and said, "I knew what the symbol meant but my intent wasn't to discriminate against anyone" and that he didn't understand who he was hurting by doing such a thing. Which I guess is something that any racist would say when called out, but that article also goes on to say that the university soccer association invited Avram Grant to speak about the Holocaust to students but they didn't seem to grasp what he was trying to tell them. Which is really disturbing because I think what this means is that there are kids out there who have been brought up so insularly on the idea that Japan is exceptional that they can't imagine that there are people in the world who aren't them.
Yasushi Akimoto made idols dress up like Nazis for Halloween and apologized for it afterwards but the fact that he and the dozens if not hundreds of staff who made it happen think they can get away with doing something like that is also telling of how tone deaf the general Japanese population is about these things.
posted by misozaki at 2:54 PM on August 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
Yasushi Akimoto made idols dress up like Nazis for Halloween and apologized for it afterwards but the fact that he and the dozens if not hundreds of staff who made it happen think they can get away with doing something like that is also telling of how tone deaf the general Japanese population is about these things.
posted by misozaki at 2:54 PM on August 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
I'd been conditioned to expect the Keisei Skyliner from Narita to be full of doe-eyed cosplayers and sentient robots, but it was pretty much the opposite of that. We did all the stuff we did at home. We caught the train and the bus. We went to convenience stores and supermarkets. Kids went to school and played in parks. Everybody we met was lovely (presumably people who didn't like us just avoided us - fair enough.) It was cleaner and more organised and cheaper and quieter and as a whole the country just seemed to have more of its shit together, but maybe Australia isn't a great baseline there.
So my overwhelming takeaway from Japan (by which I mean selected bits of Osaka and Tokyo, as a white tourist whose Japanese is limited to greetings and counting, and whose visits totalled about a month) is that it's just this normal place where normal people live and do so much normal stuff. People rarely use 'domestic' or 'pedestrian' in a good way, but Japan seemed to do both in a great way.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 11:02 PM on August 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
So my overwhelming takeaway from Japan (by which I mean selected bits of Osaka and Tokyo, as a white tourist whose Japanese is limited to greetings and counting, and whose visits totalled about a month) is that it's just this normal place where normal people live and do so much normal stuff. People rarely use 'domestic' or 'pedestrian' in a good way, but Japan seemed to do both in a great way.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 11:02 PM on August 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Wait, there is one thing that is really exceptional about Japan: their convenience stores are otherworldly. I would gladly pay higher taxes if somehow my corner 7-11 transformed into a Japanese 7-11. And they are all over, I have been in remote ex-urbs and small villages and they all have great stores. How do they do it?
posted by mumimor at 9:17 AM on August 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 9:17 AM on August 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
Cultural literacy is much harder than linguistic fluency, and it’s especially hard in Japan because it’s perhaps the one world-power-level “developed” country that has the least in common, culturally, with any given Euro-centric country/culture.
As a nerd who, like many nerds, has leaned too hard on cultural references / quotes in many a friendship/conversation, this has been driven home to me often with my [Japanese] wife. It forced me to stop relying on that, as she will miss 90% of them (which is actually less than most Japanese, as her family were big fans of American movies growing up so at least those she often knows --- but when it comes to music or TV, for example, she has basically 0 knowledge of what I previously considered ubiquitous cultural icons). Even the Japanese cultural literacy I did have was primarily anime-related, which was not her thing before (although it's been a useful shared media, as its readily available in hybrid-language form unlike most shows).
One thing my wife herself noticed after moving to the US (she's been here a little over 2 years) is that her view of Japan as a homogeneous country was not really accurate. Given a little distance from the country, she has a different perspective on it. Many Japanese have the myth that all Japanese people are basically the same, even though as an outsider this seems trivially wrong (and upon reflection, I think most will acknowledge this --- but its one of those national myth things, like Americans have about economic mobility or something). However, it is fairly taboo to talk about controversial or important differences, so you never see the, um, vigorous public debate we're having now in America, for example. (While there are some things she likes about America, we certainly picked an absolutely terrible time for her to move here...)
We're still in the slow process of moving there (back for her, first time for me), trying to do it in the least disruptive way now that things in America, while bad, are a little less urgent-seeming than right after the election. I've probably spent about 6 months there total over the last 4 years, so I'm still scratching the surface.
posted by thefoxgod at 2:49 PM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
As a nerd who, like many nerds, has leaned too hard on cultural references / quotes in many a friendship/conversation, this has been driven home to me often with my [Japanese] wife. It forced me to stop relying on that, as she will miss 90% of them (which is actually less than most Japanese, as her family were big fans of American movies growing up so at least those she often knows --- but when it comes to music or TV, for example, she has basically 0 knowledge of what I previously considered ubiquitous cultural icons). Even the Japanese cultural literacy I did have was primarily anime-related, which was not her thing before (although it's been a useful shared media, as its readily available in hybrid-language form unlike most shows).
One thing my wife herself noticed after moving to the US (she's been here a little over 2 years) is that her view of Japan as a homogeneous country was not really accurate. Given a little distance from the country, she has a different perspective on it. Many Japanese have the myth that all Japanese people are basically the same, even though as an outsider this seems trivially wrong (and upon reflection, I think most will acknowledge this --- but its one of those national myth things, like Americans have about economic mobility or something). However, it is fairly taboo to talk about controversial or important differences, so you never see the, um, vigorous public debate we're having now in America, for example. (While there are some things she likes about America, we certainly picked an absolutely terrible time for her to move here...)
We're still in the slow process of moving there (back for her, first time for me), trying to do it in the least disruptive way now that things in America, while bad, are a little less urgent-seeming than right after the election. I've probably spent about 6 months there total over the last 4 years, so I'm still scratching the surface.
posted by thefoxgod at 2:49 PM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
I was originally going to say “you know how American society works because you’ve seen RoboCop”
This reminds me of early in our dating when my wife confessed that her image of America involved a lot more shooting/gunfights than we actually have, because of movies/TV. I mean, it's still a shockingly high amount of gun violence compared to _Japan_, but its not _quite_ as bad as the impression you'd get from our entertainment. After a few years here still no firsthand experience with shootings, unsurprisingly to me. (More disappointing to her, but not unique to Japanese visitors, is that even living in Hollywood you rarely see celebrities).
posted by thefoxgod at 2:55 PM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
This reminds me of early in our dating when my wife confessed that her image of America involved a lot more shooting/gunfights than we actually have, because of movies/TV. I mean, it's still a shockingly high amount of gun violence compared to _Japan_, but its not _quite_ as bad as the impression you'd get from our entertainment. After a few years here still no firsthand experience with shootings, unsurprisingly to me. (More disappointing to her, but not unique to Japanese visitors, is that even living in Hollywood you rarely see celebrities).
posted by thefoxgod at 2:55 PM on August 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
misozaki - thanks for that. It will be either surprising or unsurprising to you that I found it quite difficult to get any specific information on the Shiina Ringo Problem - no one I asked about it wanted to say anything, and I didn't want to press them. Perhaps they didn't want to hurt my feelings. Most of the coverage of her on the internet in English is fan coverage, and a bit hagiographical (even slightly creepily so), and there's nothing in Wikipedia, either up front or in the talk section. Ah, well. KSK completely blew me away when I first heard it a few years ago (to the point of obsession), and I went through a heavy SR phase. I mostly just like the tunes - I obviously don't understand the lyrics, although I've been very influenced by things that people have written about her lyrics. I am, obviously, a little disappointed to confirm that one of my favourite musicians is the Japanese equivalent of a UKIPper, but I was a big Cerebus fan way back before Dave Sim went mad, and this is a minor disappointment by comparison.
posted by Grangousier at 4:28 PM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 4:28 PM on August 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
I assume your own contribution must have been inadvertently deleted by a wayward mod?
I get the joke, but I'm mostly tired of people making sweeping generalizations of other cultures based on a highly limited subset of cultural representations that they wouldn't dream of making about their own culture.
Here, let me do this about the US.
--
Once I read a blog about this guy who went to the US for a year for an exchange program through his school. This guy Jason told him about this practice called 'frat hazing' - you have to handcuff yourself to another person, pour hot sauce on yourself, and drink until you puke three times. The American guy Jason said everyone does this ritual all across the US. Whatever though, that's Weird US for you. (shakes head)
I visited the US on an exchange program and everyone was really friendly and things were really clean! This was a total surprise to me, because having watched The Wire, Homeland and all the Die Hard series, I really thought there would be more gunfights and that people would be more hostile to foreign visitors like me. Instead, everyone was really friendly. I'm still kind of on the edge for violence breaking out while I'm here; all my friends at home were worried that I'd get shot by some cops or become part of a school shooting and I think it's still good to be on guard.
I'm about to travel to the US for the first time. I'm really fascinated by American cowboy culture. I've watched so many movies and read so much history, and I'm really excited to see how American society has been affected by the archetype of the cowboy. Cowboys are independent, strong, ruthless, but with a firm moral code. It's been 150 years or so since cowboy culture has been predominant, but I'm going to travel to the American southwest and ride some horses, learn how to lasso. Apparently there are still some cowboys continuing the tradition! My first stop is in LA, and then I do a road trip to Texas. I can't wait to ask people in LA what they think about the cowboy.
I'm really excited to go to my first NASCAR rally. Joe, my American host, told me that pretty much everyone in the US likes NASCAR, and that it's almost like a national holiday, where people grill meat out of their cars and have parties. It seems so American that everyone likes a big event around car racing - Americans really love their cars. Joe also said that everyone in the US has at least one car, and that it's really difficult to get around without one, and that while buses and trains exist, nobody really uses them. Back home we have the metro and bus, which works really well. I wonder why Americans don't like public transit.
posted by suedehead at 6:48 PM on August 21, 2017 [6 favorites]
I get the joke, but I'm mostly tired of people making sweeping generalizations of other cultures based on a highly limited subset of cultural representations that they wouldn't dream of making about their own culture.
Here, let me do this about the US.
--
Once I read a blog about this guy who went to the US for a year for an exchange program through his school. This guy Jason told him about this practice called 'frat hazing' - you have to handcuff yourself to another person, pour hot sauce on yourself, and drink until you puke three times. The American guy Jason said everyone does this ritual all across the US. Whatever though, that's Weird US for you. (shakes head)
I visited the US on an exchange program and everyone was really friendly and things were really clean! This was a total surprise to me, because having watched The Wire, Homeland and all the Die Hard series, I really thought there would be more gunfights and that people would be more hostile to foreign visitors like me. Instead, everyone was really friendly. I'm still kind of on the edge for violence breaking out while I'm here; all my friends at home were worried that I'd get shot by some cops or become part of a school shooting and I think it's still good to be on guard.
I'm about to travel to the US for the first time. I'm really fascinated by American cowboy culture. I've watched so many movies and read so much history, and I'm really excited to see how American society has been affected by the archetype of the cowboy. Cowboys are independent, strong, ruthless, but with a firm moral code. It's been 150 years or so since cowboy culture has been predominant, but I'm going to travel to the American southwest and ride some horses, learn how to lasso. Apparently there are still some cowboys continuing the tradition! My first stop is in LA, and then I do a road trip to Texas. I can't wait to ask people in LA what they think about the cowboy.
I'm really excited to go to my first NASCAR rally. Joe, my American host, told me that pretty much everyone in the US likes NASCAR, and that it's almost like a national holiday, where people grill meat out of their cars and have parties. It seems so American that everyone likes a big event around car racing - Americans really love their cars. Joe also said that everyone in the US has at least one car, and that it's really difficult to get around without one, and that while buses and trains exist, nobody really uses them. Back home we have the metro and bus, which works really well. I wonder why Americans don't like public transit.
posted by suedehead at 6:48 PM on August 21, 2017 [6 favorites]
A quicker way to make that point would be to say "Imagine Florida Man being universally and uncontroversially considered representative of the US."
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:14 PM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:14 PM on August 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
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posted by GallonOfAlan at 1:06 AM on August 19, 2017 [1 favorite]