Precarious by Design

October 18, 2018 8:56 AM

Passengers are empowered to act as middle managers over drivers, whose ratings directly impact their employment eligibility,” note Rosenblat and Stark in their paper. “This redistribution of managerial oversight and power away from formalized middle management and toward consumers is part of a broader trend in flexible labor. via Kenyatta
posted by infini (80 comments total)

All the modern convenience economy that caters to decently well-off people living in cities is actually fulfilling those people's desire to have a temporary servant.
posted by Space Coyote at 9:03 AM on October 18, 2018 [25 favorites]

just wanted to say that if you use lyft or whatever you are morally obligated to give your driver five stars, and to click every single positive review button, and to leave a hyper-positive comment, ideally written in silicon valley bro-speke. (i.e. “ Excellent dude!! super chill!! sweet tunes!! 👍👍🤩👍👍”)

You are obligated to do this EVERY SINGLE TIME, no matter what. doing anything but this is the moral equivalent of crossing a picket line.

The company encourages you to see yourself as management and rat out the employees. Instead you must see the company as the enemy and the employees as your comrades.

And if you don’t, you’re the devil.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:06 AM on October 18, 2018 [97 favorites]

and for christ’s sake leave a decent tip. if you can take a lyft instead of public transit, you can afford to leave a tip.

also never use uber for anything. but you knew that already.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:08 AM on October 18, 2018 [32 favorites]

And if you think, even think for a second, that you should give a ride share employee a four star or below rating, remember: I could be anyone. Anywhere. No one knows what I look like. No one knows what I sound like, not unless they’ve watched late-season simpsons and who even does that anyway?

I’m reclusive novelist thomas pynchon. and I’m watching. Give five stars, always.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:22 AM on October 18, 2018 [27 favorites]

Here we only have Uber. Frankly it costs nearly as much as a taxi. I have only used Uber twice in my life. I did not call them. My sister did. She and her husband were visiting from a long ways off. The main advantage they have over a taxi around here at least is that there’s barely any wait time. I don’t have the app. Pretty much would prefer to call a taxi.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 9:27 AM on October 18, 2018

Making drivers deadhead extensively as a policy is reprehensible.
posted by toodleydoodley at 9:34 AM on October 18, 2018 [5 favorites]

I rate Lyfts five stars and tip unless there are safety issues. supporting our comrades behind the wheel is important, but protecting pedestrians and cyclists from harm is much more important.

I don't think "people shouldn't go 50mph through the crosswalk in front of the preschool" is a devilish position but cool hot take.
posted by bagel at 9:44 AM on October 18, 2018 [26 favorites]

This Polygon op-ed by Katherine Cross connecting crunch in the game industry with arbitrary firing of employees at the whim of hate mobs seems germane to the topic. Letting hate mobs drive staffing decisions is a lot like letting hate mobs serve as uncompensated managers. Same with tying bonuses to Metacritic scores, for that matter.

I know this article is specifically about the gig economy, but the above trends IMO demonstrate ways that this horrible bullshit that's being beta-tested in the gig economy can be translated to traditional employment as well.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:45 AM on October 18, 2018 [12 favorites]

If a driver is abusive or a legitimately dangerous driver I'm going to give them less than five stars because they shouldn't be driving people around for a living. Otherwise if is 5 stars.

On preview: what bagel said.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:45 AM on October 18, 2018 [9 favorites]

You see that? They've already managed to pit us against each other. Good job, tech bros.
posted by klanawa at 10:02 AM on October 18, 2018 [8 favorites]

I recently had to report a driver for racist conversation. If you have to do something like this, I learned to leave details! They really do go and talk to the driver, and if you do like I did and just put "racist," they don't have a lot to work with.
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:07 AM on October 18, 2018 [8 favorites]

If Lyft gets me to my destination safely they get 5 stars and a tip.
posted by COD at 10:08 AM on October 18, 2018 [2 favorites]

This was Lyft, I should specify. Who knows if Uber actually would follow up.
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:08 AM on October 18, 2018

I am going to politely suggest that if you have a problem with someone's driving, you should take it up with them personally instead of anonymously narcing them out to their bosses.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 10:08 AM on October 18, 2018 [7 favorites]

Reporting dangerous driving is never narcing. 1.25 million traumatic, avoidable violent deaths a year.
posted by ambrosen at 10:20 AM on October 18, 2018 [46 favorites]

Like I said the last time we had this discussion about Uber/Lyft star ratings: If you decide to rate every single driver 5 stars in an attempt to "be nice", you are actively making the problem worse by contributing to rating inflation.

Let's say 50% of people decide to rate every driver 5 stars. All that means is that Uber adjusts its threshold for a "bad driver" from 4.5 to 4.75, or whatever. Except it's worse than that -- if "nice" passengers are guaranteed to give a 5 star rating every time, then the only differentiating factor that controls whether a driver gets disciplined by Uber is the average rating they get from assholes. So the margins for punishment get smaller, and drivers are forced to tolerate worse behavior from their passengers, lest a single vindictive rating screw them over.

By encouraging a policy of blanket 5-star ratings, you're prioritizing your own warm fuzzy feelings over the safety and livelihood of drivers. If you want to actually make a difference, then boycott companies that abuse their drivers, and/or work for better regulation of the industry.
posted by teraflop at 10:22 AM on October 18, 2018 [19 favorites]

Also if you're comfortable telling someone you think they're driving unsafely WHILE IN THEIR CAR then that's cool for you, but I don't have that amount of guts.
posted by brilliantine at 10:23 AM on October 18, 2018 [31 favorites]

I get what you're saying, teraflop, but working in customer service that never seemed to be the actual case. My office got high and low reviews, but having low reviews did not make the upper management more chill about it when we got a low review. Also, even if over time accurate ratings made the system more balanced, there are people who will lose their jobs in the meantime.
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:27 AM on October 18, 2018 [6 favorites]

you should take it up with them personally instead of anonymously narcing them out to their bosses.

wat

a) actual minorities are in actual danger in a racist driver's car

b) I didn't call for a Lyft because I wanted to get into an argument

c) racists doesn't give a flying fuck about random people's opinions.

d) getting fired is something even racists care about
posted by GuyZero at 10:28 AM on October 18, 2018 [42 favorites]

I solve the problem by not using Uber or Lyft. Taxi drivers still exist, and the one I use is hirable by text, so it all works.

For most of the rest of the ones that try to make me a manager, I refuse to rate any person at all. I tip well, all whining from the app or in text to make me rate something I ignore.
posted by tavella at 10:33 AM on October 18, 2018 [4 favorites]

It would be delightful if the system were set up so that (translated to the current system), everyone got five stars automatically unless a specific complaint is actively made. If the proportion of rides with complaints goes beyond a reasonable threshold, take action. Obviously, if there is a safety-related complaint immediate investigation and quick action is required if sustained, but most complaints regard matters of preference and are individually useless.

Personally, as long as they aren't physically violent or verbally abusive, offensive in a way that isn't a matter of taste or preference, or more actively dangerous than the typical clueless driver I rate 5 stars. It's completely nonsensical that there is no way to provide less than perfect feedback that has zero chance of contributing to punitive action. Friendly suggestions or even "meh, is fine" are simply impossible in a system where the acceptable range is between 4.8 and 5 and integer ratings are required.

It kinda shocks me on some level that these companies that are supposed to be ushering in a new era that they decided, when starting from scratch, to use a system that was known to produce terrible results in other industries. Automakers have been guilty of ratings compression for decades, and it's been pretty common knowledge most of that time. The rank stupidity of it, given well known history, just baffles me.

Actually, it shouldn't. I should believe what they are saying with the choices they make. The only reason to do it, knowing what happened previously, is that you want to have a dysfunctional system that enforces precarity and abuse upon drivers by design.
posted by wierdo at 10:34 AM on October 18, 2018 [4 favorites]

I do not want to be somebody's manager, I really don't.

When I'm dealing with a person in the course of buying something, I don't want deference or for them to have a sense they are inferior or subordinate to me.

Because that would put an insupportable burden on me.

I am not perfectly correct in all my dealings, and feel wronged in many situations in which, upon reflection, I have merely been wrong.

This movement would turn me from a very fallible ordinary human being into a serial abuser of human rights and dignity.

No.
posted by jamjam at 10:39 AM on October 18, 2018 [9 favorites]

just wanted to say that if you use lyft or whatever you are morally obligated to give your driver five stars, and to click every single positive review button, and to leave a hyper-positive comment, ideally written in silicon valley bro-speke. (i.e. “ Excellent dude!! super chill!! sweet tunes!! 👍👍🤩👍👍”)

...

I’m reclusive novelist thomas pynchon. and I’m watching. Give five stars, always.

I don't understand why you would ever get poor ratings as a freelancer in the gig economy.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:40 AM on October 18, 2018 [1 favorite]

I drive for Lyft sometimes and it is not the case that anything less than five stars equals end of employment. Only drivers with consistently low scores face repercussions. What you don't want to do is give your driver you liked a three or four star rating because of some trifling bullshit: a previous rider left an empty soda bottle in the drink holder, traffic made us get to the destination slower than projected, etc. Do not downgrade because of "room to improve." Downgrade because of failure or ill performance only.

Drivers get a report weekly and as long as their ratings aren't consistently low, they're fine.

What you can do, if you want to be a good and helpful person is inflate your ratings. That way, when we take our just-washed, just-vacuumed 2018 car with a clean interior to pick someone up and they give us four stars because "car could have been cleaner" it will balance. Assume other passengers are dicks. Assume tips are lower than makes sense and that people routinely give inexplicably low ratings that must be overcome.

But do not assume "I have to tolerate everything and give everyone five stars or else I will cost working people their jobs." You can give the guy with the BO car three stars. It will be low enough to be a drag on his rating, but not so low that if it was a fluke or you were alone on that one and no one else had the same experience that he/she can't overcome it and keep on working.

So basically, what I am saying is add one star to what your gut says. That will work fine. The enemy of the ride share driver isn't the passenger who has legit complaints, it's the passenger who gives three stars when they cannot actually state anything they didn't like, they just think you didn't wow them. It's the passenger who gives four stars because they've "seen better."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:41 AM on October 18, 2018 [30 favorites]

I think I've only ever given 5 stars to Lyft/Uber drivers as there's really no way to determine what the stars mean. If there was an actual assessment metric to determine it I'd play along but it's really just a survey on people's feelings about stars more than any objective assessment of the competence of the driver. Questions like "Clean Car", sure, I can give that a boolean assessment. Some cars are scrupulously clean, some are meh. And a meh car isn't the end of the world, but at least it's somewhat closer to objective. Almost all drivers I've had are "good driver"s because you have to be a pretty bad driver to get into not-good-driver territory. Like, the cabbie that gave a fellow passenger motion sickness from the weaving thru NJ turnpike traffic with erratic acceleration.
posted by GuyZero at 10:43 AM on October 18, 2018 [2 favorites]

To start with, Uber and Amazon and Walmart and other megacompanies are great at doing things more efficiently, in the economic sense. This is good. This is very good. This is the basis of improvements in overall human living standards. They produce more output with less input. E.g., instead of a driver going around randomly in circles until he happens to find someone who wants a ride, we can match drivers and riders more quickly. Walmart is more efficient too: instead of stocking their shelves with stuff that might sit and get dusty, they stock it with stuff people want to buy. This is efficient, and it is very good, especially for the poorer people who tend to shop there.

But that's not the only reason Walmart is cheaper than competitors: They also pay their suppliers less and pay their employees less. That is not, in generally, an efficiency improvement, but is a redistribution. They can do this because of their market power. They have market power in large part because they are more efficient. Uber has similar issues.

If only there were some way that we, as a society, could allow private industry to flourish and innovate, but within a structure that helped spread the benefits, perhaps through laws that set rules under which they operated such as minimum wages, encouraged labor unions to balance corporate power, and set up a system of progressive taxation....
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:43 AM on October 18, 2018 [10 favorites]

I am going to politely suggest that if you have a problem with someone's driving, you should take it up with them personally instead of anonymously narcing them out to their bosses

sure, that's probably easy and safe for anyone who isn't a visible minority traveling alone.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:54 AM on October 18, 2018 [26 favorites]

I've also had a few drivers with guns in the car, which definitely changes what I'm willing to say to their face.
posted by tofu_crouton at 10:58 AM on October 18, 2018 [6 favorites]

I started using Lyft after two successive experiences with the formerly very good cab company in my town, in which I waited around an hour for a ride of twenty minutes or less. I think Lyft and Uber have basically killed the cab industry here, or at least the company I liked.

I deeply resent the ratings business, though. I don’t want to choose between “pretend I love you when I really thought you were mildly annoying/not a great driver” and “take away your job.” I just want to get from an A to a B that is poorly innervated by transit (I don’t drive and I’m not a safe road biker). I give 5 stars and I feel like a hostage every time - like it’s the app version of dudes telling me to smile. It’s a new dimension to the old problem of tipping: what’s construed as a super great avenue for consumers to have their say is actually a way for a business to shift its responsibilities to its employees onto someone else.
posted by eirias at 10:59 AM on October 18, 2018 [16 favorites]

The problem is that people (ok, maybe just me) don't think of a 5 star system as a binary, "5 stars = arrived at destination ok, anything lower = driver should be fired". I think of 3 stars as "average", meaning I got to my destination with no drama, and the driver didn't do anything crazy. 4 would be, I dunno, letting me stop on the way to hit up an ATM or run into 7-11 for something. 5 would be exceptional, and I'm not sure what that would even entail.

However, after learning of the ridiculous levels that drivers have to maintain, now every driver gets 5 stars no matter what, short of kicking me out of the car halfway through the trip or something really egregious.
posted by Mr. Big Business at 11:01 AM on October 18, 2018 [5 favorites]

l mean i live in manhattan where, if i feel unsafe in a taxi, it is pretty fucking trivial to say "hey you know what? i'll get out here instead of (destination), thanks!" and just be on my way to the subway or even another taxi without much fuss. if i lived somewhere rural or even just suburban i would be a lot less casual about taking cars places, especially, as mentioned above, in states where it's apparently not insane and deranged to just drive around with guns on you. i sure as hell wouldn't comment right then and there on someone's unsafe driving or racist rants.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:04 AM on October 18, 2018 [16 favorites]

The problem is that people (ok, maybe just me) don't think of a 5 star system as a binary, "5 stars = arrived at destination ok, anything lower = driver should be fired". I think of 3 stars as "average", meaning I got to my destination with no drama, and the driver didn't do anything crazy. 4 would be, I dunno, letting me stop on the way to hit up an ATM or run into 7-11 for something. 5 would be exceptional, and I'm not sure what that would even entail.

Yes, this is the problem. Please do not do this.

The system actually works like this:
***** - I got to where I was going and nothing happened that made me feel unsafe or necessitates a formal complaint.
**** - I got to where I was going but had enough reservations about the ride that I would like to register them non-specifically, in case they are part of a pattern that might later need to be addressed.
*** - I got to where I was going but this driver is problematic and should be encouraged to actively improve or seek other employment.
*/** - Entirely unacceptable. I will detail my bad experiences later in extended communication with your company.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:10 AM on October 18, 2018 [24 favorites]

Even when I'm sure that I read as an important business white guy, I don't know how the person presently operating a two-ton machine might react to criticism in the moment. If someone's acting recklessly, I don't want them to also be angry and distracted.

In an ideal world, ridesharing companies would provide drivers with decent pay, training, and health insurance. Also, at least a tenth of the fleet would be wheelchair-accessible vans, and public transit would go everywhere 24x7, but instead we have this nonsense.
posted by bagel at 11:11 AM on October 18, 2018 [6 favorites]

If a driver is carrying around a gun in such a way that I am aware of its presence, they're getting zero stars. Like wtf?
posted by ryanrs at 11:12 AM on October 18, 2018 [6 favorites]

I won't rule out the possibility that Lyft/Uber/et al. are simply averaging raw user ratings and calling it a day, but the typical way to deal with user idiosyncrasies in ratings systems like these is to try to estimate each user's ratings bias and variance so that a user who thinks a '3' is average doesn't tank scores and likewise a user who always gives '5' doesn't inflate them. In such a system, if you have zero variance in your ratings (e.g., you always give '5') then your ratings will effectively be ignored, because they contain no information.
posted by Pyry at 11:14 AM on October 18, 2018 [6 favorites]

I solve the problem by not using Uber or Lyft. Taxi drivers still exist, and the one I use is hirable by text, so it all works.

In my recent experience, standard taxis are now driven by the people who have been run off the apps because of low ratings. Lately my real taxis have been with incredibly dangerous drivers, often in barely functional cars...
posted by kaibutsu at 11:14 AM on October 18, 2018 [1 favorite]

Also, these companies don't normalize each customer's reviews? The customer who always gives 3s shouldn't affect driver score any more than the one who always gives 5s.

edit: hi5 pyry
posted by ryanrs at 11:14 AM on October 18, 2018

🎵 We can't solve systemic problems with individual action; gig economy problems can only be solved by collective action and ultimately regulation🎶
posted by latkes at 11:14 AM on October 18, 2018 [40 favorites]

You all remember that other FPP just yesterday about how the Sears Catalog made it possible for black people to buy regular home goods as easily, safely, and cheaply as white people always had?

Yeah, well, Uber and Lyft help black and brown people get rides. Rating systems help women, nonwhite people, and other visible minorities have a voice and some semblance of recourse against hateful service providers without having to literally risk our lives trying to get it. The ability to leave reviews and read reviews of restaurants, shops, drivers, and even doctors is empowering women like never before.

About ten years ago, in the weeks and hours before I gave birth to my first kid, my OBGYN and her team stuck their fingers up my vagina at least 50 times in total, without my consent and in fact ignoring my protests. Four years ago I finally gathered wits and courage: I left reviews on google and on every rate-your-doc website I could find detailing their violations. It was a small measure of justice.

It was also justice when I gave my most recent Lyft driver a one- star WOMEN BEWARE rating because he drove me to the airport and then cancelled the ride, refused to take my money, and asked me out on a date instead. Thomas Pynchon can bite my ass - people who deserve bad reviews should absofuckinglutely get bad reviews.
posted by MiraK at 11:19 AM on October 18, 2018 [37 favorites]

take it up with them personally
...
5 stars
...
And if you don’t, you’re the devil.

As an obvious lesbian who also still sometimes gets harassed by men: lol gtfo with that absolute fucking nonsense
posted by schadenfrau at 11:21 AM on October 18, 2018 [28 favorites]

You are obligated to do this EVERY SINGLE TIME, no matter what. doing anything but this is the moral equivalent of crossing a picket line.

As a union organizer, let me tell you, not just no, but fuck this entire line of thinking forever.

Crossing a picket line is not just a thing you can bring out to morally shame people when you want. Crossing a picket line is a specific, shitty thing where you take action against a collective group of workers.

There are two ways you can 'cross a picket line' when it comes to Uber. The first, is to order from the service when workers from it are out on strike - such as the IWW Couriers in Ireland on 4 October - as you will be ordering from or riding with scabs. Don't order from or ride with scabs.

The second is if a taxi driver's union is out on strike, and the Uber workers are not. Don't reward them for being unwilling to join. Just don't use a taxi on that day.

Other than that, you are not crossing a fucking picket line, THOSE WORDS HAVE MEANING.

That said: if I see an IWW sticker or pin on a gig worker, I will give them a five star rating regardless of whether they shit on the floor or not. If I have a problem with them, I'll bring it to the union, not the boss. But that is because they are a member of a union and a fellow worker. If they aren't engaging in collective action, I owe them jack fucking shit.
posted by corb at 11:22 AM on October 18, 2018 [34 favorites]

Also, “desire” for temporary servants? This kind of shit just makes us look dumb, honestly. Firstly: gig economy companies have crowded out non-gig companies in some areas and industries. Secondly: if you are working 80-90 hour weeks, you do not necessarily have time to do basic self care and maintenance tasks. (I sure as shit didn’t when I was working even less than that, but I am also a delicate flower, medically speaking.) You might not want to use one of these gig companies, but in major cities it also might be your only way to solve a problem. Same for people with disabilities. Sometimes you need this shit, and bc we have no social safety net or social services, the gig economy is often the only provider, and then only to people who can afford it. Which is ducking bullshit, but what, you want that those people should just suffer as some form of solidarity? Fuck that, honestly.

We need labor protections for everybody. We need safe and reliable 24/7 public transportation for everybody. We need social services for anyone who needs them, whenever they need them. Until we get all that, people are going to hack together whatever solutions they can, and I’m not going to begrudge them for it, nor assume that they’re all assholes.

The assholes are the ones writing the policy, founding the companies, and fucking up our society. Those are the people we should go after.

Christ.
posted by schadenfrau at 11:29 AM on October 18, 2018 [24 favorites]

I give 5 stars and I feel like a hostage every time - like it’s the app version of dudes telling me to smile. It’s a new dimension to the old problem of tipping: what’s construed as a super great avenue for consumers to have their say is actually a way for a business to shift its responsibilities to its employees onto someone else.
-- eirias

QFT

especially the "dudes telling me to smile" part.
posted by MiraK at 11:38 AM on October 18, 2018 [6 favorites]

Though the company that always stuck in my brain as the true pure form of “nouveau-riche assholery” — which is literally called Alfred Club, and which refers to its employees/part time butlers as fucking “Alfreds” — is also one of the only companies that doesn’t treat it as a gig economy thing. Their employees are actually employees with benefits and shit. Probably not great benefits, and I have no idea about the pay, but they are at least employees.

It would delight me if they organized.
posted by schadenfrau at 11:39 AM on October 18, 2018 [2 favorites]

Though the company that always stuck in my brain as the true pure form of “nouveau-riche assholery” — which is literally called Alfred Club, and which refers to its employees/part time butlers as fucking “Alfreds”

They had to go with Alfred, their first choice George had already been used.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:23 PM on October 18, 2018 [3 favorites]

I've love to call a taxi, but they won't come to my neighborhood. It's a perfectly safe neighboorhood, just in the middle of suburbia. Before the advent of Uber/Lyft, I got stranded about six miles from home. I called every taxi company in the phone book. After four dollars in quarters, with two listings left, I found one company willing to send someone to get me. Everyone else cut me off the second they found out I didn't want to go to the airport. One of the waitresses who watched me do this told me after the first five calls that if I could wait until midnight, she'd give me a lift at the end of her shift, and I honestly thought that was what I was going to have to go with.

Uber is flat evil and Lyft is barely better, but if I open the app and punch a few buttons, someone will actually come get me and take me where I need to go. These services didn't just take off because riders want a change to feel superior - there was a serious unfilled niche there.

Now here's the thing I want to know -- do I tip using the app so their management can see I thought they were worth tipping, or do I tip in cash so the driver can choose how much to report and how much to pocket?
posted by Karmakaze at 12:57 PM on October 18, 2018 [17 favorites]

do I tip using the app so their management can see I thought they were worth tipping, or do I tip in cash so the driver can choose how much to report and how much to pocket?

What I do at bars is to leave a stingy, bare-minimum tip on the card and then supplement with cash.
posted by Lexica at 1:16 PM on October 18, 2018

The few times I've used ride-sharing, I've always tipped cash figuring it was the best way to get the most money in the drivers' hands. Is this the correct thinking?
posted by slogger at 1:32 PM on October 18, 2018

I use Lyft a lot since my husband and I have one car and he works for himself so needs it more than I do. Most days he drops me off and picks me up from work, but I get Lyfts about once or twice a week because I'm doing something social that conflicts with his schedule or because I need to work late or whatever. It's much cheaper to take Lyfts in my situation than to pay for a second car. (I average spending about $100-120/month.)

I give almost exclusively 5-star ratings.

1 star is for the guy who spent the whole ride lecturing me, an immigrant, on how evil immigrants are. Dudebros who hit on me also get 1-star ratings because I don't need to be hit on in an enclosed space I can't easily escape and I don't particularly care if that means you got fired, Brandon.

People are almost always dropping me off at home, or picking me up at home, so by definition they know where I live, so I delay giving any rating at all for about a day to people I'm 1-starring so my address isn't fresh in their minds. I have no idea if that's paranoid or not.

I tip through the app and I tip based on a $15/hour wage rounded up, so anything up to 20 minutes gets $5, and then I go in increments. I assume they get something from Lyft on top of the tip, but I don't know what or how that works. Most of my rides are only about 15 minutes though.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:53 PM on October 18, 2018 [4 favorites]

i don't use uber/lyft etc but i do use postmates, and i worry about that CONSTANTLY. will the company see that my postmate isn't getting tips on the app and use that against them? will other postmates see that i have never tipped on the app and assume i'm a shitty customer and not someone who gives a $20 bill for every delivery? I DON'T KNOW. and every time i've asked a postmate which kind of tipping is better they look nervous and brightly say either one is fine, like i might be a SPY for the MAN. (since apparently they are forbidden to ask for tips)
posted by poffin boffin at 1:54 PM on October 18, 2018 [5 favorites]

If you hand someone cash directly, you know that they got it. Cash in hand is worth more than maybe, could be, sort of, eventually, but what about, I hope your boss gives this to you.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 2:15 PM on October 18, 2018 [1 favorite]

I bet you all hated the Colbert Report too. "That Colbert fellow is a self-righteous prick!! How DARE he say he doesn't see color, only knows he's white because other people tell him he is?!?"

Like the part about it being equivalent to crossing a fucking picket line ?? really? come on ppl.
posted by some loser at 2:27 PM on October 18, 2018 [1 favorite]

We're at the point where organized labor in many industries is "people who realize that shitty working conditions shouldn't exist but have little power to help".

Whether the moral line is regarded as a labor-action picket line is left to the individual.
posted by Slackermagee at 2:33 PM on October 18, 2018

This article pairs in a distressing way with the post about Comstat as a management tool for police. As middle management broadly transitions to basically tracking easily measurable worker stats, the job of a middle manager becomes more and more easy to automatize. What is the point of having a human in the role when algorithms do it "better"?
posted by latkes at 3:07 PM on October 18, 2018 [2 favorites]

We're at the point where organized labor in many industries is "people who realize that shitty working conditions shouldn't exist but have little power to help".

If you work for wages, aren't a cop or a prison guard, and don't have the ability to hire and fire people, you are eligible to take out a red card with your friendly IWW and start being a part of organized labor. Everyone is valuable, everyone is worthwhile, everyone has the power to help improve working conditions today.
posted by corb at 3:35 PM on October 18, 2018 [6 favorites]

Every Lyft drive I took, the driver earned the five stars.

On the other hand, the other week I got sideswiped by an Uber driver that lost control of his rental car. He didn't just cross lanes, he went over the curb and gap between the freeway and the offramp. A half second later and the freeway divider would have cut his car in two. His insurance company has been oddly impossible for my insurance company to reach.

So, what rating should his passenger, who had to call a second Uber give him? Can she at least downgrade him to a 4 for nearly killing her? Or should that just be a 15% tip?
posted by happyroach at 3:37 PM on October 18, 2018 [5 favorites]

I think it really should be a binary up or down, similar to what Netflix has moved to. And negative reviews should trigger an automatic follow-up to figure out what the issue was and if it's justified. Maybe that would take more personnel than the companies are willing to devote.

I do think feedback is absolutely essential, because there are people who shouldn't be drivers and people who shouldn't be passengers. I've complained about dangerous drivers, drivers who falsely claimed to come to the pickup site, a driver so distracted by their anti-immigration tirade they missed turns and a driver who seemed inebriated and then said he just came from a bar.

The hard thing is there are also well meaning people who need some feedback on boundaries: when someone says "actually, just let me off here," the only acceptable responses are "absolutely" and "let me pull over where it's safe"; drivers shouldn't bring up religion or politics or play radio stations focusing on either; as a recent Twitter thread I now can't find pointed out, they should never ask passengers (especially women) "is that your house" or anything similar.

I'd love to give them feedback that won't cost them their jobs but I'm not sure how the platforms should implement that.
posted by smelendez at 4:08 PM on October 18, 2018 [6 favorites]

No one should be evaluated based on so little interaction.
posted by amtho at 4:47 PM on October 18, 2018

If you are not sure how to rate the driver, you do have the option of not rating at all.
posted by Triplanetary at 4:48 PM on October 18, 2018

If asked for an opinion, people will offer one, reflexively. That doesn't mean it's the best policy.
posted by amtho at 5:18 PM on October 18, 2018

I won't rule out the possibility that Lyft/Uber/et al. are simply averaging raw user ratings and calling it a day,

They openly acknowledge that driver (and rider!) ratings are a straight average of the last 500 or so (I forget the exact number and I'm on my phone, so I'm not going to bother to look it up). They even openly state that action may be taken against a driver if their rating was below 4.81 (approximately).

That is why even four star ratings should be reserved for actual problems that, if continued, should result in their involuntary unemployment. People on Metafilter are more attuned to this sort of thing than most and we still see a lot of people saying they were not aware of how the ratings are used and a decent amount of skepticism about it actually being that way. Most people are less informed than we are, ergo it's quite possible for a driver to be in a situation where a relatively short run of 3-4 star ratings could lead to temporary suspension or worse.

On preview: they've both been making it increasingly difficult to not rate the driver, especially if you want to tip. (Even if a driver isn't great, I'm still going to compensate them for taking me places where riders are few and far between because they deserve to be compensated for the risk they are taking in possibly having to return empty. That said, I'll totally tip zero if they are unsafe or if the ride was unpleasant due to circumstances within their control and I'm taking a ride that will compensate them reasonably and leave them with the same chance of finding a ride as they had before our transaction. (These situations are primarily when a driver has no idea where they are going and refuses to take direction even when given plenty of warning and traffic allows them to be taken safely. I don't do shared rides, so I get to dictate the route if I damn well feel like it as long as I'm not rude about it)
posted by wierdo at 5:19 PM on October 18, 2018

> No one should be evaluated based on so little interaction.

They should absolutely get the benefit of the doubt. But if a driver or passenger breaks the law, endangers or threatens someone, is overtly racist or misogynist, etc., I have no problem with people filing a complaint.
posted by smelendez at 5:29 PM on October 18, 2018 [2 favorites]

I'm sorry but this is an idiotic opinion. I will rate people how I want using the scale they make available to me and if that means consequences for them- that is not my fault. It is not my responsibility that Uber has this system or other people feel they must give the highest ratings no matter what for some reason or another. Besides which, as a woman, I can tell you that complaining about customer service rarely results in people losing a job. It rarely results in anything at all.
posted by fshgrl at 5:39 PM on October 18, 2018 [2 favorites]

I don't do shared rides, so I get to dictate the route if I damn well feel like it

Dictating the route is the first step to robbing the driver, or worse. Women cab drivers especially are generally not cool with blindly following customer directions.
posted by ryanrs at 5:46 PM on October 18, 2018 [2 favorites]

Then they can say "I'm not comfortable with that" rather than ignoring me and blindly following the GPS into an avoidable traffic jam when the alternative is a well used route and not at all out of the way or even particularly unusual. (I don't take rides to literal rural areas, we're talking 98% somewhere in the same city maybe 5-7 miles and 2% 35 mile trips into busy suburbs. I understand that there can be safety issues in some circumstances, but these are not those. Besides, I've literally never had a woman do that. (Me requesting a specific route happens maybe 10% of trips and maybe 1 in 15 of my drivers present as other than male, so it's only happened a couple of times)

FWIW, the vast majority of the time I need to intervene is at one specific highway interchange where there is a choice between taking one busy highway and another. I don't ask people to drive me some convoluted route through "dangerous" neighborhoods or anything. That does end up happening a fair amount by their own choice, though.

Anyway, that's not even the point. The point is that the system is broken by design and it's pretty clear given one of the responses that education can't fix it. Ride-sharing drivers get suspended every single day for having too low a score where too low is above 4.5, which I think we all can agree is not low enough to merit disciplinary action on its own in a 1-5 rating system. Despite my fervent wishes, disbelief does not change that fact.
posted by wierdo at 6:44 PM on October 18, 2018 [1 favorite]

So basically, what I am saying is add one star to what your gut says. That will work fine. The enemy of the ride share driver isn't the passenger who has legit complaints, it's the passenger who gives three stars when they cannot actually state anything they didn't like, they just think you didn't wow them. It's the passenger who gives four stars because they've "seen better." -- DirtyOldTown

This does not sound like a marketplace in which I wish to operate.

This article pairs in a distressing way with the post about Comstat as a management tool for police. -- latkes

Damn straight it does. Manage by stats and people will only manage their stats. Manage by algorithm and people will either be gamed by it or game it. We're rushing headlong into the Paperclip Maximizer, one gig economy trip at a time.
posted by krisjohn at 6:55 PM on October 18, 2018 [1 favorite]

I'm sorry but this is an idiotic opinion. I will rate people how I want using the scale they make available to me and if that means consequences for them- that is not my fault. It is not my responsibility that Uber has this system or other people feel they must give the highest ratings no matter what for some reason or another.

Ok, cool, but please understand we're hearing this in the voice of Mr. Pink from Reservoir Dogs.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:16 PM on October 18, 2018 [1 favorite]

Mr. Pink had a point - as eirias noted above, tips are a way to make customers responsible for employers' obligations to employees.

This is just another way for corporations to socialize costs while privatizing profits. They're outsourcing employee evaluation and even firing employees to customers. They ain't paying me to do it. I refuse to accept responsibility for it.
posted by MiraK at 7:21 PM on October 18, 2018 [2 favorites]

eirias noted above, tips are a way to make customers responsible for employers' obligations to employees.

And just like refusing to recognize how the driver rating system actually works, not tipping isn't a way of sticking up for the working man, it's punishing the victims of an unfair system while being hollowly self-congratulatory.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:31 PM on October 18, 2018 [8 favorites]

I will rate people how I want using the scale they make available to me and if that means consequences for them- that is not my fault.

The point you seem to be missing is that the parent companies (not the people actually doing the work) are LYING (by omission, at least) about how that scale gets used. Your Lyft/Uber/whatever driver has no say whatsoever in creating the scale nor how it gets used or interpreted. (And it's not just gig-economy companies, either - more than once in retail chain stores I've had the bored cashier openly admit that if I left a rating online (for a chance to win $200 store credit or whatever) and didn't rate them 5 stars then the company would take that as a black mark against the store and employees of that store.) The people you are rating are not the "they" that made the scale available to you.

Seriously, look at the comment by DOT. In a 5-star rating system it's totally understandable to assume that 3 stars - the halfway point - is "average"; "I got to where I was going and nothing happened that made me feel unsafe or necessitates a formal complaint." That sounds like a pretty average experience to me. 4 and 5 stars would be reserved for exceptional service. But no, how things operate now is that anything less than 5 stars counts as "problem or potential problem." Corporations have devalued the customer rating systems and interpreted them in their own favor so anything less than "exceptional" service can be held against their employees/subcontractors/independent contractors.

These people you're rating - the deck is fuckin' stacked against them; shrugging off the potential consequences of you not understanding or caring how that deck is stacked and using it anyway is disingenuous at best.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:45 PM on October 18, 2018 [8 favorites]

I agree with Mr Pink. I'm also from Europe. Raise prices, pay people a living wage and get rid of tips. Tips are demeaning.

But the idea that we should all be personally responsible for and worry terribly about the possible ramifications of every interaction with every service person we meet is insane, in and of itself. I have been a service person and they do not give nearly that much of a shit about you. It's also not the Victorian era and no one is going to be sent to the workhouse over one complaint. Uber is a minimum wage job that most people do part time, let's have some perspective.

Having said that I do use Uber as the taxis drivers around here have a long and well documented history of harrassing and assaulting women. They also can't drive worth shit and constantly loan their medallions out to other people and the cars are not maintained.
posted by fshgrl at 8:46 PM on October 18, 2018 [7 favorites]

The system actually works like this:
***** - I got to where I was going and nothing happened that made me feel unsafe or necessitates a formal complaint.
and
They even openly state that action may be taken against a driver if their rating was below 4.81 (approximately).

Are a reflection of what I have heard - but to me reflect a fundamentally broken system where the five star rating needs to be taken out back and shot. If I am given a star rating I do not assume that the pass mark is 100%. I assume that the pass mark is either 60% or 80%, and that that final star is for going above and beyond. I also know that I am far from alone in this.

This basically means that Uber drivers have their jobs determined by a lottery based on whether at least 80% of the users know that the star rating system they use is broken and don't give four stars for perfectly good service, saving five for going above and beyond (either situationally or like the guy who has a Nintendo Switch in his Uber for his passengers to play while in the back seat - and yes it is screwed down).
posted by Francis at 3:06 AM on October 19, 2018 [1 favorite]

Nearly all customer-service ratings systems are pass/fail. The highest possible rating is passing. Anything less is failing. Ever had hotel staff or car salesmen beg you to let them know if there’s any reason you can’t rate them 10/10, so they can fix it? That’s because 9/10 is very bad news for them. Like, on-probation levels of bad news.

The managers think this sets a standard of excellence. “You should always go above and beyond to delight every customer!” Never mind that most of the time, the transaction is so straightforward that the only way you could truly delight the customer would be to waive their bill — which you would get fired for doing.

So yeah. I always give the top rating, unless something really egregious happened that couldn’t be fixed by just asking the person to fix it. I treat it as pass/fail because it is treated that way by management.

To be clear, occasionally someone deserves the failing grade. If they said or did truly offensive or scary things, for example. But most people deserve to pass.

(Also, if you live in or visit Austin, Texas, use the RideAustin app for your rideshare needs. They’re a nonprofit, and the drivers get to keep substantially more of their fares.)
posted by snowmentality at 5:49 AM on October 19, 2018 [2 favorites]

So the management wins by OSTENSIBLY shifting the power of evaluating employee to the consumer but actually only shifting the work of it, while retaining all the power in their own hands by making up ever-changing and/or never-defined rules for interpreting employee evaluations by consumers as they see fit (i.e. to their own best profit).

If, tomorrow, we were all to create a mass movement to rate all Uber drivers one star at all times, Uber would simply change its own rules to still keep all Uber drivers on regardless because they cannot run a business without employees.

I think this thread has just proved that the only way to win is not to play. Don't rate Uber drivers or tip your waiters. Force employers to take back their responsibilities upon themselves.
posted by MiraK at 9:00 AM on October 19, 2018 [2 favorites]

Yes! Join me in the refusal to rate! I used to sometimes rate when I thought someone really deserved 5 stars, but I realized that was still playing into the game.
posted by tavella at 9:55 AM on October 19, 2018

I mean, don't tip your waiters is a cruel policy. Getting active in the Fight for 15 movement is a way to change the system for the better without punishing poor people.
posted by latkes at 10:27 AM on October 19, 2018 [5 favorites]

Yes! Join me in the refusal to rate! I used to sometimes rate when I thought someone really deserved 5 stars, but I realized that was still playing into the game.

Uber may simply take that as a bad rating.

You're only given two options - say the driver was great or say the driver was bad. Option out isn't possible. If you opt out, they may interpret it as negative feedback.

If you really don't like how Uber runs its service, don't use it. (and yes, I get that sometimes it's the best or only choice. Such is life)
posted by GuyZero at 10:32 AM on October 19, 2018 [1 favorite]

Another factor that I think hasn't been mentioned here is that a large percentage of people, when presented with a five star rating system, will mostly give out fives and ones. That's why youtube moved from a five star system to a thumbs up/thumbs down system. If you've got a critical mass of people who will rate that way naturally, then the average rating will be close to five, and then the "problem" threshold will be up there too. A "less than four is a problem" system is a natural consequence of how a lot of people interact with rating systems.

Now, there's a lot of ways you can work with that. Presenting descriptive text that maps to numbers on the back-end is one way to adjust how people will use your ratings. Mentioned earlier is keeping track of per-user averages and count deviations from that is another. Abandoning five stars in favor of thumbs up/thumbs down is one that I think more places should adopt. Or you can do what it seems like most companies do, which is shrug and make their employees deal with the consequences.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 1:04 PM on October 19, 2018

Interestingly, Uber already has thumb system. It only applies to Uber Eats. Amazon has also started doing it for Prime Now. The people who transport actual humans, though, they still need 4.81 out of 5 stars.

And no, Uber does not give a fuck if they end up suspending most of their drivers. In my city alone they get 50-100 new drivers a week. If they end up suspending too many existing drivers, the surge algorithm will entice those new drivers to drive more. At least that's how their reasoning goes, the reality of the situation aside. (TBH, they're probably not wrong given the amount of incentive money at stake. They pay $500-$1500 if the new driver meets certain metrics in their first couple of weeks)
posted by wierdo at 2:44 PM on October 19, 2018

This is just another way for corporations to socialize costs while privatizing profits. They're outsourcing employee evaluation and even firing employees to customers. They ain't paying me to do it. I refuse to accept responsibility for it.

They're are paying you in the sense of charging you less for the ride than it would take to pay their drivers an adequate wage.

The only legit way to refuse to accept any responsibility is to not use the service.
posted by straight at 5:21 PM on October 19, 2018