Subway Bread isn't Bread (in Ireland). Or Anywhere Else.
October 1, 2020 5:19 PM Subscribe
The Irish Supreme court has decided that Subway's bread is not bread.
This is for tax classification purposes and not anything more existential. In similar vein to previous court cases such as Jaffa Cakes: cookie (biscuit) or cake? (Previously)
This is for tax classification purposes and not anything more existential. In similar vein to previous court cases such as Jaffa Cakes: cookie (biscuit) or cake? (Previously)
When I first arrived in the US my then girlfriend, now wife, took zonked me to breakfast. I just wanted some bacon and toast. Then I got the bacon and it was US bacon by which they took the good part of the loin off and left me with the fat. But the toast. I asked for white bread, just wanting something simple. I took one bite and thought that they mistakenly put syrup on the bread.
Nope. Plain white bread. But it was sweet for some god forsaken reason.
The Irish Supreme Court is 100% correct.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:22 PM on October 1, 2020 [32 favorites]
Nope. Plain white bread. But it was sweet for some god forsaken reason.
The Irish Supreme Court is 100% correct.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:22 PM on October 1, 2020 [32 favorites]
This one goes into the annals of food rulings by Supreme Courts, along with Nix v. Hedden, where the US Supreme Court ruled that tomatoes are a vegetable, not a fruit, on the grounds that nobody would eat tomatoes for dessert.
posted by vogon_poet at 5:28 PM on October 1, 2020 [20 favorites]
posted by vogon_poet at 5:28 PM on October 1, 2020 [20 favorites]
As per the Evening Standard, "The 1972 act specifies the weight of ingredients such as sugar, fat and bread improver shall not exceed 2 per cent of the weight of flour in the dough and serves to differentiate bread from other baked goods." This excludes so many cultures' traditional breads from being considered 'bread'.
posted by Dysk at 5:35 PM on October 1, 2020 [20 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 5:35 PM on October 1, 2020 [20 favorites]
"bread improver"
posted by SoberHighland at 5:38 PM on October 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by SoberHighland at 5:38 PM on October 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
This means that breads with egg or milk or oil weren't bread, which seems absurd.
posted by jeather at 5:45 PM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by jeather at 5:45 PM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
2% of the weight of the flour. I guess a brioche wouldn't be considered bread either then.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:46 PM on October 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:46 PM on October 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
Dysk: I absolutely assume you're right about that. I'm curious what the comparisons might be, but my googling is only giving me articles about the sugar content in chain restaurant bread or "novelty" breads like cinnamon-raisin. Any idea where I could read more about it?
posted by Riki tiki at 5:46 PM on October 1, 2020
posted by Riki tiki at 5:46 PM on October 1, 2020
the US Supreme Court ruled that tomatoes are a vegetable, not a fruit, on the grounds that nobody would eat tomatoes for dessert
They could not be more wrong. Tomatoes are delicious with honey and milk.
posted by Maxwell's demon at 5:47 PM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
They could not be more wrong. Tomatoes are delicious with honey and milk.
posted by Maxwell's demon at 5:47 PM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
This from a nation that thinks soda bread is bread (let alone edible)?
posted by Thorzdad at 5:50 PM on October 1, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 5:50 PM on October 1, 2020 [17 favorites]
any portmanteau in a storm: "I guess a brioche wouldn't be considered bread either then."
The law in question is meant to distinguish foods that serve as dietary staples from those that are luxuries. Store-bought brioche probably isn't a staple food for many people, but I'd guess that the flour, eggs, etc. that you'd use to make your own brioche are protected (but I don't know, so correct me if I'm wrong).
posted by Riki tiki at 5:52 PM on October 1, 2020 [9 favorites]
The law in question is meant to distinguish foods that serve as dietary staples from those that are luxuries. Store-bought brioche probably isn't a staple food for many people, but I'd guess that the flour, eggs, etc. that you'd use to make your own brioche are protected (but I don't know, so correct me if I'm wrong).
posted by Riki tiki at 5:52 PM on October 1, 2020 [9 favorites]
For tax purposes, soda bread is technically a kind of loam.
posted by Horkus at 5:53 PM on October 1, 2020 [45 favorites]
posted by Horkus at 5:53 PM on October 1, 2020 [45 favorites]
I made soda bread once a few years ago. I still have it around somewhere.
posted by um at 5:56 PM on October 1, 2020 [29 favorites]
posted by um at 5:56 PM on October 1, 2020 [29 favorites]
Soda bread is just a form of dwarf bread, I think. (If it gets better when a cat pisses on it, it's definitely dwarf bread.)
posted by maxwelton at 6:02 PM on October 1, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 6:02 PM on October 1, 2020 [9 favorites]
Riki tiki. We have similar classifications here in Canada, although I usually mentally break it down as ingredients (exempt) vs. prepared food (taxed). I don't know where bread falls for us. In a place where bread isn't taxed and cake is it is fun to see where the line between them is drawn. Not so fun if you have to pay tax on it and it's a staple for you as Dysk pointed out though.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:03 PM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:03 PM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
Subway's bread is not good, but it is bread by any reasonable definition. I have at arm's length a copy of Bread by Jeffrey Hamelman, noted bread authority. In it, one finds, included without qualifiers, many formulas for inarguable breads like brioche that exceed the sugar content standards used in this ruling. As for "bread improvers" cited as pejorative, there are bad ones, yes, but the category includes natural, respected, and accessible-to-the-home-baker ingredients like diastatic malt powder (love your bagel? your soft pretzel? thank that ingredient, probably) and ascorbic acid, otherwise known as vitamin c.
Correct: Subway's sandwich rolls are not by any standard great bread. It would be lovely if they had a small ingredient list, made up of things people recognize, that offered high food value and stand-alone eating quality. Hard to do that in an international chain, I think. I am just irritable tonight and therefore irritable about this. I don't know why I'm collaterally defending the product of a company I do not patronize. I guess I don't like categories used like this?
posted by Caxton1476 at 6:07 PM on October 1, 2020 [10 favorites]
Correct: Subway's sandwich rolls are not by any standard great bread. It would be lovely if they had a small ingredient list, made up of things people recognize, that offered high food value and stand-alone eating quality. Hard to do that in an international chain, I think. I am just irritable tonight and therefore irritable about this. I don't know why I'm collaterally defending the product of a company I do not patronize. I guess I don't like categories used like this?
posted by Caxton1476 at 6:07 PM on October 1, 2020 [10 favorites]
Perhaps the austere regulation is a holdover from the 1980s or earlier, when, as Irish comedian David O’Doherty quipped, Ireland was the sort of place where parsley was considered a spice.
posted by acb at 6:09 PM on October 1, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by acb at 6:09 PM on October 1, 2020 [10 favorites]
I laughed at this initially but then realized that the sourdough sandwich bread I make for The Kid - 475g whole wheat, 475g all-purpose, 50g sugar - doesn’t qualify either. So, meh.
posted by Slothrup at 6:20 PM on October 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Slothrup at 6:20 PM on October 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
In a place where bread isn't taxed and cake is it is fun to see where the line between them is drawn.
Quebec's Act respecting the bread trade was repealed in 1993, but it contained this curious provision:
5. It is prohibited to give bread for publicity purposes.
Not sure if there's any case law around the enforcement of that section.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:23 PM on October 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
Quebec's Act respecting the bread trade was repealed in 1993, but it contained this curious provision:
5. It is prohibited to give bread for publicity purposes.
Not sure if there's any case law around the enforcement of that section.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:23 PM on October 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
They should lean into it and rename themselves "Pâtisserie Métro".
posted by jedicus at 6:27 PM on October 1, 2020 [31 favorites]
posted by jedicus at 6:27 PM on October 1, 2020 [31 favorites]
Bread it may not be, but the smell of whatever they were baking in the Subway that appeared in the 19th St. BART station around 1999 was a huge improvement over the usual metallic whoosh of exhalations, dirt, and grimy upholstery. I’ll always be grateful to Subway for that.
posted by corey flood at 6:28 PM on October 1, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by corey flood at 6:28 PM on October 1, 2020 [7 favorites]
a brioche wouldn't be considered bread
It’s a pain to admit, but no. (As Marie Antoinette’s translator thought, long ago.)
posted by clew at 6:31 PM on October 1, 2020 [16 favorites]
It’s a pain to admit, but no. (As Marie Antoinette’s translator thought, long ago.)
posted by clew at 6:31 PM on October 1, 2020 [16 favorites]
They should lean into it and rename themselves "Pâtisserie Métro".
Sort of a boo-langerie.
Yes, I'm showing myself out.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:32 PM on October 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
Sort of a boo-langerie.
Yes, I'm showing myself out.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:32 PM on October 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
I made soda bread once a few years ago. I still have it around somewhere.
Propping a door open, no doubt.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:59 PM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
Propping a door open, no doubt.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:59 PM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
soda bread done right is delicious -- with butter and honey ... mmmm
posted by philip-random at 7:03 PM on October 1, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 7:03 PM on October 1, 2020 [14 favorites]
Soda bread is spending a year dead for tax reasons.
posted by Quack at 7:11 PM on October 1, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by Quack at 7:11 PM on October 1, 2020 [7 favorites]
Damper is soda bread and therefore soda bread is excellent. The Dusty Champion of Breads? Perhaps! It isn't my place to say. Another thing that is good is yeast rolls.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:18 PM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:18 PM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
Why the hate for soda bread? I use the Serious Eats recipe with the frankly ridiculous amount of buttermilk. I could see the hate if you were just using vinegar soured milk, but if you think of it as “okay we’re using cheap flour but we’re making up for it with one hundred twenty percent buttermilk hydration, it’s really a matter of paying attention to what’s really the primary ingredient. A generous scoop of sugar helps. Go easy on the baking soda until you learn to ride the edge. If you underdo the soda you get tame, rich, sweet bread, but if you can bump it into pretzel-aroma without falling into soap, that’s the real win condition.
posted by notoriety public at 7:30 PM on October 1, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by notoriety public at 7:30 PM on October 1, 2020 [16 favorites]
2% of the weight of the flour. I guess a brioche wouldn't be considered bread either thenI suspect that the law is actually specifically targeting doughs like brioche that are usually used for "treats" (I wanted to say pastries, but those are made of pastry dough ha) rather than "staples"
posted by 3j0hn at 7:34 PM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
If it's not bread, then is a Subway sandwich a sandwich?
posted by etherist at 7:39 PM on October 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by etherist at 7:39 PM on October 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
I love soda bread. But on reflection, the version we eat in the US probably has a great whack of sugar in it.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:45 PM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:45 PM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
Must be a soup then.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:45 PM on October 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:45 PM on October 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
I have always found subway bread to be barely edible, revolting and the smell of it baking to be nauseating. If they want to call it bread I have no qualms with that, but I also have no qualms with the Irish taxing sugary foods more. It's a public health issue.
posted by BrotherCaine at 7:52 PM on October 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by BrotherCaine at 7:52 PM on October 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
Subway always smells like someone left a loaf of bread in a running dishwasher overnight.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:10 PM on October 1, 2020 [27 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:10 PM on October 1, 2020 [27 favorites]
I was once a Sandwich Artist: can confirm.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:16 PM on October 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:16 PM on October 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
If it's not bread, then is a Subway sandwich a sandwich?
I suppose a hypothetical Subway hot dog is definitely not a sandwich.
posted by MrGuilt at 8:33 PM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
I suppose a hypothetical Subway hot dog is definitely not a sandwich.
posted by MrGuilt at 8:33 PM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
This excludes so many cultures' traditional breads from being considered 'bread'.
That is... halfway true. Many cultures have both everyday unsugared bread as well as celebratory special bread. For example, mine (Maharashtrian) includes both everyday पोळी (unsugared) as well as sweet पुरण-पोळी (made with lots of jaggery and served on festive occasions). It would be fair to say that only the former is what one might think of as bread while the latter is a sort of dessert.
I cannot claim that this is true for all other cultures, but it does seem generally true for other cultures that eat bread, for e.g. some Jewish cultures that have everyday unsugared bread and also sweet eggy challah for Fridays and holidays.
Outside of factory-food America, if there is a traditional culture that eats an everyday bread which is highly sugared, I'm curious to know which culture and which food this is.
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:36 PM on October 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
That is... halfway true. Many cultures have both everyday unsugared bread as well as celebratory special bread. For example, mine (Maharashtrian) includes both everyday पोळी (unsugared) as well as sweet पुरण-पोळी (made with lots of jaggery and served on festive occasions). It would be fair to say that only the former is what one might think of as bread while the latter is a sort of dessert.
I cannot claim that this is true for all other cultures, but it does seem generally true for other cultures that eat bread, for e.g. some Jewish cultures that have everyday unsugared bread and also sweet eggy challah for Fridays and holidays.
Outside of factory-food America, if there is a traditional culture that eats an everyday bread which is highly sugared, I'm curious to know which culture and which food this is.
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:36 PM on October 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
> I suppose a hypothetical Subway hot dog is definitely not a sandwich.
It definitely wouldn't be food.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:40 PM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
It definitely wouldn't be food.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:40 PM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
I don't know where bread falls for us. In a place where bread isn't taxed and cake is it is fun to see where the line between them is drawn.
Here's the rules in Canada. Bread and cake start on paragraph 87. I swear it's not the sleep deprivation talking; I found it an interesting read.
The basic rule is that bread is zero rated (non taxable), but sweets for individual consumption (donuts, cookies, etc.) are. Once you get 6 or more sweets though, they turn back to groceries. All the way up to and including wedding cake. (Styrofoam iced wedding cake decoration? Taxable. Combined cake with some tiers of Styrofoam? Tax free if there is at least 230g of cake.)
On the other hand, Subway bread is always taxable because it's made into sandwiches, which is prepared food, which is taxable in our rules.
It's fascinating the rules that have to be drawn up to try to make the line between groceries and prepared food, and all of the fine details and exceptions. Even defining food becomes tricky. Something edible intended for human consumption? Not always - a potted plant of parsley is edible and intended for human consumption, but not food.
posted by Superilla at 9:10 PM on October 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
Here's the rules in Canada. Bread and cake start on paragraph 87. I swear it's not the sleep deprivation talking; I found it an interesting read.
The basic rule is that bread is zero rated (non taxable), but sweets for individual consumption (donuts, cookies, etc.) are. Once you get 6 or more sweets though, they turn back to groceries. All the way up to and including wedding cake. (Styrofoam iced wedding cake decoration? Taxable. Combined cake with some tiers of Styrofoam? Tax free if there is at least 230g of cake.)
On the other hand, Subway bread is always taxable because it's made into sandwiches, which is prepared food, which is taxable in our rules.
It's fascinating the rules that have to be drawn up to try to make the line between groceries and prepared food, and all of the fine details and exceptions. Even defining food becomes tricky. Something edible intended for human consumption? Not always - a potted plant of parsley is edible and intended for human consumption, but not food.
posted by Superilla at 9:10 PM on October 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
I am pleasantly surprised to have read through all of the comments and seen not a single mention of Vani Hari.
posted by Warren Terra at 9:27 PM on October 1, 2020
posted by Warren Terra at 9:27 PM on October 1, 2020
This one goes into the annals of food rulings by Supreme Courts, along with Nix v. Hedden, where the US Supreme Court ruled that tomatoes are a vegetable, not a fruit, on the grounds that nobody would eat tomatoes for dessert.
posted by vogon_poet at 8:28 PM on October 1
Lies! Had they never heard of tomate du saltambique?
posted by ZaphodB at 9:27 PM on October 1, 2020
posted by vogon_poet at 8:28 PM on October 1
Lies! Had they never heard of tomate du saltambique?
posted by ZaphodB at 9:27 PM on October 1, 2020
Outside of factory-food America, if there is a traditional culture that eats an everyday bread which is highly sugared, I'm curious to know which culture and which food this is.
The actual quote: "ingredients such as sugar, fat and bread improver shall not exceed 2 per cent of the weight of flour"
Biscuits? Naan? Foccacia? Parker House rolls? Maybe I'm not using culturally correct recipes, but I've never made any of those where fat (either directly in shortening, olive oil, butter or indirectly through yogurt) was less than 2% of the weight of the flour.
posted by Superilla at 9:29 PM on October 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
The actual quote: "ingredients such as sugar, fat and bread improver shall not exceed 2 per cent of the weight of flour"
Biscuits? Naan? Foccacia? Parker House rolls? Maybe I'm not using culturally correct recipes, but I've never made any of those where fat (either directly in shortening, olive oil, butter or indirectly through yogurt) was less than 2% of the weight of the flour.
posted by Superilla at 9:29 PM on October 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
Looks like the regrettably named ethnic breads are also tax-exempt in Ireland as of somewhat recently, which actually leads me to wonder if the defense tried arguing for the cultural status of a sugary sandwich bread in the US, and if so what the response was...
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:39 PM on October 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:39 PM on October 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
I have always found subway bread to be barely edible, revolting and the smell of it baking to be nauseating
Related AskMeFi thread: "What is the smell at Subway?"
posted by secret about box at 9:39 PM on October 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
Related AskMeFi thread: "What is the smell at Subway?"
posted by secret about box at 9:39 PM on October 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
splitpeasoup, I have been having just that thought and going through old-ish cookbooks to see what comes in under 2% sugar and fat. Edna Lewis’ yeast bread, yes; bread in Elizabeth David’s history up to manchet bread, yes; bread in a 1909 Washington Women’s Cook Book published by the Washington Equal Suffrage Association, yes including Sally Lunn and the leaner version of Parker House Rolls.
It requires a lot of sun to make fat and sugar - they used to be expensive! Hence middle categories like manchet and brioche, and maybe pan dulce.
posted by clew at 9:39 PM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
It requires a lot of sun to make fat and sugar - they used to be expensive! Hence middle categories like manchet and brioche, and maybe pan dulce.
posted by clew at 9:39 PM on October 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
Superilla and I differ on what’s an everyday bread, apparently. My family only made Parker House rolls for fancy dinners. Late nineteenth c restaurant invention - yes, plausibly a luxury food rather than a dietary staple.
posted by clew at 9:45 PM on October 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by clew at 9:45 PM on October 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
corey flood I wouldn't be shocked to learn we shared that smell at some point - that was a regular stop for me in 1999.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:49 PM on October 1, 2020
posted by aspersioncast at 9:49 PM on October 1, 2020
I used to live in England and on the few occasions that I went to Burger King or McDonald's in London, the burger buns weren't the same as they had been in the US - different taste and textures. IMHO it makes way more sense for restaurant chains to source perishable things like bread in-country so I'd wonder where Subway in Ireland actually gets their bread.
posted by bendy at 10:28 PM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by bendy at 10:28 PM on October 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
A quick survey of Norwegian bread show no sugar content high enough to be taxed by Irish rules. However, the words for "bread" and "cake" ("brød" and "kake", how's that for common etymology) have slightly different meaning depending on the region you're in. And in Trøndelag it's basically totally swapped from the more common meaning. Which I guess would make it even harder to agree on a definition. In other bread-related facts, in Bergen, which is an old Hanseatic city, the types of bread on sale are different from the rest of the country.
BTW, if you have eaten sweet baked goods in Norway, enjoyed them and wondered what the secret was, I'll spill it here: It's cardamum. Add a teaspoon or two to the dough for yeast-leavened, sweet baked goods.
posted by Harald74 at 10:35 PM on October 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
BTW, if you have eaten sweet baked goods in Norway, enjoyed them and wondered what the secret was, I'll spill it here: It's cardamum. Add a teaspoon or two to the dough for yeast-leavened, sweet baked goods.
posted by Harald74 at 10:35 PM on October 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
If they legally had to change the company's name to Subway Cakewiches, would it really be the end of the world for them?
posted by fairmettle at 11:05 PM on October 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 11:05 PM on October 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
"Declared a Luxury by Irish Law"
— not unappealing, and I like soda bread!
posted by clew at 11:10 PM on October 1, 2020
— not unappealing, and I like soda bread!
posted by clew at 11:10 PM on October 1, 2020
a brioche wouldn't be considered bread
It’s a pain to admit, but no. (As Marie Antoinette’s translator thought, long ago.)
Hehehehehe I see what you did there
posted by Kitchen Witch at 12:24 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
It’s a pain to admit, but no. (As Marie Antoinette’s translator thought, long ago.)
Hehehehehe I see what you did there
posted by Kitchen Witch at 12:24 AM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
Ok I get the Subway hate, it's not the best sub sandwich. But, living overseas there is just not much of a sub sandwich culture where I am, but there is Subway. It wouldn't be my first choice back home, where there a 50 different sub places to choose from, but having it here has been really nice.
(And yeah I could make my own, but I'd rather pay someone to make it for me)
posted by LizBoBiz at 12:35 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
(And yeah I could make my own, but I'd rather pay someone to make it for me)
posted by LizBoBiz at 12:35 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
Hmmm, weird, it seems like Subway in Australia has less grams of sugar per 6 inch? The Irish subway has more than 5g, but the values listed here say that they all are 2- 3 g of sugar in Australia.
If they have different breads in different countries, then surely Subway Ireland can just change the bread they use?
posted by daybeforetheday at 1:41 AM on October 2, 2020
If they have different breads in different countries, then surely Subway Ireland can just change the bread they use?
posted by daybeforetheday at 1:41 AM on October 2, 2020
That is... halfway true. Many cultures have both everyday unsugared bread as well as celebratory special bread.
No, it is all the way true. For example, you won't find many Danish wheat bread types that don't exceed the 2% on fat. These are not brioches, mind, but they'll tend to maybe have 5% of the flour weight in butter. Which is too much for Ireland.
To be clear here, most of the things that fall foul of it will be going just over the 2% on fat or other ingredients, not sugar. So an awful lot of non-celebration, absolutely staple breads will fall foul if it, because 2% is insanely low. I'm not asking for brioche to be considered bread, here, in asking to be allowed to chuck a tablespoon of oil or knob of butter into my half kilo of flour and not have it legally be cake.
posted by Dysk at 2:26 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
No, it is all the way true. For example, you won't find many Danish wheat bread types that don't exceed the 2% on fat. These are not brioches, mind, but they'll tend to maybe have 5% of the flour weight in butter. Which is too much for Ireland.
To be clear here, most of the things that fall foul of it will be going just over the 2% on fat or other ingredients, not sugar. So an awful lot of non-celebration, absolutely staple breads will fall foul if it, because 2% is insanely low. I'm not asking for brioche to be considered bread, here, in asking to be allowed to chuck a tablespoon of oil or knob of butter into my half kilo of flour and not have it legally be cake.
posted by Dysk at 2:26 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
And while there are exemptions for "ethnic breads" as noted above, those are specific exemptions, and each type has to be ruled on independently as far as I can tell?
So your naan, your pitta, your tortillas are exempted (because they'd be cake otherwise - too much fat content) but an awful lot of less mainstream stuff won't be.
posted by Dysk at 2:33 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
So your naan, your pitta, your tortillas are exempted (because they'd be cake otherwise - too much fat content) but an awful lot of less mainstream stuff won't be.
posted by Dysk at 2:33 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
For example, mine (Maharashtrian) includes both everyday पोळी (unsugared) as well as sweet पुरण-पोळी (made with lots of jaggery and served on festive occasions). It would be fair to say that only the former is what one might think of as bread while the latter is a sort of dessert.
And neither is bread in Ireland, unless specifically covered by the ethnic bread exemption, because both contain more than 2% of flour weight in oil.
posted by Dysk at 2:40 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
And neither is bread in Ireland, unless specifically covered by the ethnic bread exemption, because both contain more than 2% of flour weight in oil.
posted by Dysk at 2:40 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
Certain things being 'bread for tax purposes' vs. 'bread as defined by cultural norms' is always going to be an inexact fit, particularly in a multicultural context. In a similar vein, the UK had a much-publicised 'biscuits vs. cakes' debate (which still gets mileage here from time to time).
I'm not sure consumers in most places are very aware of which foods are taxed vs. which aren't (or are taxed at a different value). I doubt it impacts purchasing decisions very much in this instance. It's a fun topic for a debate, especially when it leads to a conversation about the political, economic, health and cultural assumptions that go into the complicated process of designing a tax system.
posted by pipeski at 3:55 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure consumers in most places are very aware of which foods are taxed vs. which aren't (or are taxed at a different value). I doubt it impacts purchasing decisions very much in this instance. It's a fun topic for a debate, especially when it leads to a conversation about the political, economic, health and cultural assumptions that go into the complicated process of designing a tax system.
posted by pipeski at 3:55 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
> so I'd wonder where Subway in Ireland actually gets their bread
@bendy Subway shops bake their bread in-house, the busier ones throughout the day. That is their major selling point.
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 4:12 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
@bendy Subway shops bake their bread in-house, the busier ones throughout the day. That is their major selling point.
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 4:12 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
I have to say, though, when we're on the road, a Subway drag-it-through-the-garden veggie flatbread is always my go-to for lunch.
I also shudder to think what the Irish court would make of King's Hawaiian Bread? That shit's little more than baked sugar with a facsimile of a crust.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:50 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
I also shudder to think what the Irish court would make of King's Hawaiian Bread? That shit's little more than baked sugar with a facsimile of a crust.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:50 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
@bendy Subway shops bake their bread in-house, the busier ones throughout the day. That is their major selling point.
Yes, they bake it in-house. They don't make it in house. They get boxes of frozen logs of dough shipped to them from a supplier, put them in trays with ridged silcone mats to hold the shape as they rise, thaw/cold-proof in the walk-in fridge for 12-24 hours, warm proof in the proofer for 90 minutes, then bake for 20 minutes. The fridge, proofer, and oven are always set at the right temperature, because they aren't baking anything else. If you have a timer or a wrist watch, you can bake Subway bread just like the pros. No one is in the back mixing flour, yeast, water, and enough sugar to run afoul of Irish tax law, no one is kneading or shaping dough, or likely knows the first thing about baker's weights or the windowpane test or anything that can't be taught to working standard in a single afternoon.
Credentials: a former Certified Sandwich Artist (TM). (A while ago, so I might be somewhat misremembering the timing of the steps, but that was definitely the process.)
posted by solotoro at 6:16 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
Yes, they bake it in-house. They don't make it in house. They get boxes of frozen logs of dough shipped to them from a supplier, put them in trays with ridged silcone mats to hold the shape as they rise, thaw/cold-proof in the walk-in fridge for 12-24 hours, warm proof in the proofer for 90 minutes, then bake for 20 minutes. The fridge, proofer, and oven are always set at the right temperature, because they aren't baking anything else. If you have a timer or a wrist watch, you can bake Subway bread just like the pros. No one is in the back mixing flour, yeast, water, and enough sugar to run afoul of Irish tax law, no one is kneading or shaping dough, or likely knows the first thing about baker's weights or the windowpane test or anything that can't be taught to working standard in a single afternoon.
Credentials: a former Certified Sandwich Artist (TM). (A while ago, so I might be somewhat misremembering the timing of the steps, but that was definitely the process.)
posted by solotoro at 6:16 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
What's in a name? That which we call bread
By any other name would probably contain sugar in excess of 2% of the weight of flour included in the dough;
posted by pipeski at 6:23 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
By any other name would probably contain sugar in excess of 2% of the weight of flour included in the dough;
posted by pipeski at 6:23 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
Had to replace the "azodicarbonamide" with something, right?
posted by rozcakj at 6:43 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by rozcakj at 6:43 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
Soda bread is fine. I used to make it for my family regularly, based on the James Beard recipe, before we had to go gluten free.
(I'd be willing to try a GF soda bread recipe)
posted by doctornemo at 7:27 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
(I'd be willing to try a GF soda bread recipe)
posted by doctornemo at 7:27 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
For all the soda bread haters out there, can I just say that your sourdough tastes of puke?
posted by scruss at 7:37 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by scruss at 7:37 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Biscuits? Naan? Foccacia? Parker House rolls?
It's not my impression that naan is an "everyday bread" in South Asia -- I'm under the impression that the "everyday bread" in bread-eating parts of the subcontinent is chapati (which also go under a number of different names), which I don't think has any sugar at all (though the oil/fat in the recipe I use is definitely over 2% of the weight of the flour).
I am not of South Asian descent, however, so I would be interested to know if there are cultures in which naan is an everyday home bread. For my Indian-American friends at least, it definitely seems to be a "restaurant/going out" kind of bread.
posted by andrewesque at 8:13 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
It's not my impression that naan is an "everyday bread" in South Asia -- I'm under the impression that the "everyday bread" in bread-eating parts of the subcontinent is chapati (which also go under a number of different names), which I don't think has any sugar at all (though the oil/fat in the recipe I use is definitely over 2% of the weight of the flour).
I am not of South Asian descent, however, so I would be interested to know if there are cultures in which naan is an everyday home bread. For my Indian-American friends at least, it definitely seems to be a "restaurant/going out" kind of bread.
posted by andrewesque at 8:13 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
It may not be bread but we know it is actually 6 or 12 inches long after the lawsuit. Do they still use inches in rest of the world?
posted by soelo at 8:14 AM on October 2, 2020
posted by soelo at 8:14 AM on October 2, 2020
I mean ok talking about bread is interesting and all, but let's nevertheless remember what this court case is actually about:
A a giant multinational corporation wanted to make more profit by avoiding a tax. A court said no.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 8:15 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
A a giant multinational corporation wanted to make more profit by avoiding a tax. A court said no.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 8:15 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
For all the soda bread haters out there, can I just say that your sourdough tastes of puke?
Along with US chocolate. Who willingly puts butyric acid into chocolate as a fucking flavor?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:16 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
Along with US chocolate. Who willingly puts butyric acid into chocolate as a fucking flavor?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:16 AM on October 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
It may not be bread but we know it is actually 6 or 12 inches long after the lawsuit. Do they still use inches in rest of the world?
It depends on the county. In Northern Ireland they use miles and in Ireland they use kilometers. But Northern Ireland only uses miles for lengths, it uses metric for everything else. Except for baby and celebrity weights.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:17 AM on October 2, 2020
It depends on the county. In Northern Ireland they use miles and in Ireland they use kilometers. But Northern Ireland only uses miles for lengths, it uses metric for everything else. Except for baby and celebrity weights.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:17 AM on October 2, 2020
By "they", I mean Subway - sorry that was unclear. I know the US would not be kind to a place that advertised a 15 centimeter sandwich.
posted by soelo at 8:24 AM on October 2, 2020
posted by soelo at 8:24 AM on October 2, 2020
I grew up thinking of brioche as somewhere between bread and cake - not sweet enough to eat by itself, but too sweet to put anything savoury in. Same with croissants. Ham and cheese croissants have never really endeared themselves to me, and I've watched the brioche burger bun trend with consternation. Unsurprisingly, I don't get on too well with US bread either.
Not that British supermarket bread is in any way superior, though - thanks to the Chorleywood process, it may not be sugary but it tastes only of disappointment.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 8:48 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
Not that British supermarket bread is in any way superior, though - thanks to the Chorleywood process, it may not be sugary but it tastes only of disappointment.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 8:48 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
"Declared a Luxury by Irish Law"
New username up for grabs, I’d say.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:49 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
New username up for grabs, I’d say.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:49 AM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
A giant multinational corporation wanted to make more profit by avoiding a tax. A court said no.
Well, in this case it's that 15 years ago, a franchisee of a that corporation in a small town in a small-midsize country reasonably thought that they were exempt from a 9% tax on their gross margin, and was deemed to be selling takeaway food rather than staple food. I don't know the sum in question, but I suspect it's probably under €250,000, using an educated guess as to franchisee sizes.
Whereas the fact that the European Commission has appealed in order to force Ireland to collect a sum equal to 2 months of the entire government budget from Apple, a giant multinational corporation passed un-noted here. That's a €13 billion tax break that is being disputed.
I'd say that the reason people are talking about it is because discrete classifications on familiar categories are perennially interesting.
posted by ambrosen at 8:56 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
Well, in this case it's that 15 years ago, a franchisee of a that corporation in a small town in a small-midsize country reasonably thought that they were exempt from a 9% tax on their gross margin, and was deemed to be selling takeaway food rather than staple food. I don't know the sum in question, but I suspect it's probably under €250,000, using an educated guess as to franchisee sizes.
Whereas the fact that the European Commission has appealed in order to force Ireland to collect a sum equal to 2 months of the entire government budget from Apple, a giant multinational corporation passed un-noted here. That's a €13 billion tax break that is being disputed.
I'd say that the reason people are talking about it is because discrete classifications on familiar categories are perennially interesting.
posted by ambrosen at 8:56 AM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
Lots of idiots who know nothing about soda bread in this thread. Pfft.
posted by knapah at 9:32 AM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by knapah at 9:32 AM on October 2, 2020 [10 favorites]
Naan?
Naan is not an everyday bread in its native Punjab (or anywhere else). On an everyday basis Punjabis typically eat simpler breads ("roti").
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:44 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
Naan is not an everyday bread in its native Punjab (or anywhere else). On an everyday basis Punjabis typically eat simpler breads ("roti").
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:44 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
In the early days of the pandemic I was making soda bread pretty regularly (yeast being hard to find for a while), and it's pretty darn good.
And if it was in danger of going stale, its density made for pretty good crostini by brushing slices with olive oil and putting them under the broiler.
As oven weather returns, I'll be making it again. Because geez. Fresh, warm bread is great, be it soda or yeast. C'mon people.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:47 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
And if it was in danger of going stale, its density made for pretty good crostini by brushing slices with olive oil and putting them under the broiler.
As oven weather returns, I'll be making it again. Because geez. Fresh, warm bread is great, be it soda or yeast. C'mon people.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:47 AM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
It's not entirely clear to me why this judgment was even relevant to the case in question. Surely they aren't selling just bread as a staple in Subways anyways? They're selling sandwiches, which are a prepared food. Even if their loaves were made of the breadiest bread that ever breaded, the sandwiches themselves would still be subject to VAT, wouldn't they?
posted by jackbishop at 10:20 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by jackbishop at 10:20 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
> Outside of factory-food America, if there is a traditional culture that eats an everyday bread which is highly sugared, I'm curious to know which culture and which food this is.
Coco bread comes to mind. My understanding from Jamaican friends is that it's an everyday lunchtime bread.
posted by desuetude at 11:24 AM on October 2, 2020
Coco bread comes to mind. My understanding from Jamaican friends is that it's an everyday lunchtime bread.
posted by desuetude at 11:24 AM on October 2, 2020
(I saw the link on "ethnic breads," yes. That's an icky bit of gatekeeping IMO.)
posted by desuetude at 11:29 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by desuetude at 11:29 AM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
The “ethnic breads” phrasing is all due to the newspaper reporting it. The actual law change in 2012 broadens the definition of bread to include most of the listed things, including Subway bread. Which is why the VAT case was from the ’00s.
So the actual story is “Subway bread retrospectively ruled not to have been bread then, but is bread now”.
posted by ambrosen at 12:06 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
So the actual story is “Subway bread retrospectively ruled not to have been bread then, but is bread now”.
posted by ambrosen at 12:06 PM on October 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
what's all the hate on soda bread? it's more or less a giant biscuit
posted by Dr. Twist at 12:47 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Dr. Twist at 12:47 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
So the actual story is “Subway bread retrospectively ruled not to have been bread then, but is bread now”.
That's some atrocious reporting from all the major newspapers - they've basically all gone with "Court rules subway bread isn't bread" and then talked about the 72 act exclusively, no mention that it isn't current.
posted by Dysk at 12:59 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
That's some atrocious reporting from all the major newspapers - they've basically all gone with "Court rules subway bread isn't bread" and then talked about the 72 act exclusively, no mention that it isn't current.
posted by Dysk at 12:59 PM on October 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
That's some atrocious reporting from all the major newspapers
It's basically par for the course. most non-investigative pieces in almost any news outlet you'd care to name; especially ones with click-bait headlines like ones surrounding the "bread" issue, are almost worse than no reporting at all. sources are poorly verified any web-accessible primary documents aren't cited, little or no context is present, no interpretation or history is given big details are left out etc.
posted by Dr. Twist at 1:06 PM on October 2, 2020
It's basically par for the course. most non-investigative pieces in almost any news outlet you'd care to name; especially ones with click-bait headlines like ones surrounding the "bread" issue, are almost worse than no reporting at all. sources are poorly verified any web-accessible primary documents aren't cited, little or no context is present, no interpretation or history is given big details are left out etc.
posted by Dr. Twist at 1:06 PM on October 2, 2020
sorry if that seemed like an attack on Dysk, i've gotten really crabby today about news quality
posted by Dr. Twist at 1:17 PM on October 2, 2020
posted by Dr. Twist at 1:17 PM on October 2, 2020
It’s not clear to me that the court even declared Subway bread non-bread, just that they pointed out it doesn’t meet the definition of bread as a staple. (And this is mostly fun because of thinking about edge cases, plus the last two hundred years of food history. Why did flaky biscuits become more common and beaten biscuit less so? Can’t have hurt that fat has become cheaper and labor more expensive in the US. Is there a pattern to how cuisines change when their cooks move to another country? Is it different for home cooking and restaurant cooking? How long does it take for something to count as traditional? What alterations don’t make something untraditional? Can I have another helping?)
posted by clew at 1:31 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by clew at 1:31 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'm late to this, but I wanted to note that both my everyday farmhouse white and wheat bread recipes have 35g of both sugar and olive oil and 20g of milk powder to 600g of flour. I never get any complaints. Even when we had an exchange student for the winter or guests from China.
posted by ob1quixote at 3:27 PM on October 2, 2020
posted by ob1quixote at 3:27 PM on October 2, 2020
Nobody is claiming that eaters don't like sugary fatty bread, just that high fat and sugar contents are not necessary for bread (and were, in 1977 &ff, taxed more in Ireland than lean doughs).
posted by clew at 5:25 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by clew at 5:25 PM on October 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
I like that Metafilter gets mad about soda bread.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 8:18 PM on October 2, 2020
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 8:18 PM on October 2, 2020
Leading to the inevitable...
Metafilter: mad about soda bread
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:33 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: mad about soda bread
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:33 PM on October 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Mad about the bread,
I know it's stupid to be mad about the bread,
I'm so ashamed of it but must admit the sandwiches I've had
Without the bread.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:40 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
I know it's stupid to be mad about the bread,
I'm so ashamed of it but must admit the sandwiches I've had
Without the bread.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:40 PM on October 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
This one goes into the annals of food rulings by Supreme Courts, along with Nix v. Hedden, where the US Supreme Court ruled that tomatoes are a vegetable, not a fruit, on the grounds that nobody would eat tomatoes for dessert.
I’ve noticed that the “Actually, tomatoes are technically a fruit” people never seem to say the same thing about peppers, aubergines, courgettes, runner beans, okra…
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:22 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
I’ve noticed that the “Actually, tomatoes are technically a fruit” people never seem to say the same thing about peppers, aubergines, courgettes, runner beans, okra…
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:22 AM on October 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
I like that Metafilter gets mad about soda bread.
That's one perspective.
The other perspective is that what people are saying is “This is what I think about every cuisine that's not the same as mine, and I think I'll get away with mocking it this time”.
It costs nothing to just not go on the attack against another culture. Even when reporting makes it appear that that culture's attacked yours.
posted by ambrosen at 2:10 AM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]
That's one perspective.
The other perspective is that what people are saying is “This is what I think about every cuisine that's not the same as mine, and I think I'll get away with mocking it this time”.
It costs nothing to just not go on the attack against another culture. Even when reporting makes it appear that that culture's attacked yours.
posted by ambrosen at 2:10 AM on October 3, 2020 [9 favorites]
if there is a traditional culture that eats an everyday bread which is highly sugared,
Portuguese sweet bread? I only know this via bakery and restaurant cuisine in places like Provincetown, Stonington CT, New Bedford, etc., where there are bakeries and restaurants by and for Portuguese communities, but they serve it with a lot of meals, like as a sort of English muffin at breakfast, or alongside soup.
posted by Miko at 9:47 AM on October 3, 2020
Portuguese sweet bread? I only know this via bakery and restaurant cuisine in places like Provincetown, Stonington CT, New Bedford, etc., where there are bakeries and restaurants by and for Portuguese communities, but they serve it with a lot of meals, like as a sort of English muffin at breakfast, or alongside soup.
posted by Miko at 9:47 AM on October 3, 2020
Immigration to the US especially sweetens just about every cuisine - both because sugar was more affordable here and because sugar makes unfamiliar food more palatable to the rest of the US. So I’d be curious about what the daily bread was in Portugal before Portuguese maritime cultures got hooked into the triangle trade.
posted by clew at 11:49 AM on October 3, 2020
posted by clew at 11:49 AM on October 3, 2020
Also there’s a big difference between traditional meaning before the effects of industrialization, and traditional meaning at least three generations old.
posted by clew at 11:52 AM on October 3, 2020
posted by clew at 11:52 AM on October 3, 2020
Well, according to things I Googled, it originated in the Azores but was originally a holiday bread that became an everyday bread in the US. That follows the path of a lot of immigrant cuisines in the US.
posted by Miko at 1:47 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 1:47 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Surely they aren't selling just bread as a staple in Subways anyways?
“She told me it’s against regulations for Subway to sell just the bun...”
posted by armeowda at 7:02 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
“She told me it’s against regulations for Subway to sell just the bun...”
posted by armeowda at 7:02 PM on October 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Thanks for posting this, it is an enjoyable discussion and now I need to make soda bread.
posted by paduasoy at 1:10 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by paduasoy at 1:10 AM on October 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
She told me it’s against regulations for Subway to sell just the bun...
...which puts me in mind of a test I used to enjoy performing occasionally on new McDonald's franchises: ask for a Big Mac and a choc fudge sundae, except could you please put the choc fudge into the Big Mac instead of on the sundae?
Readers, some of them will do this. And I'm here to tell you that it tastes very very nearly identical.
posted by flabdablet at 12:25 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
...which puts me in mind of a test I used to enjoy performing occasionally on new McDonald's franchises: ask for a Big Mac and a choc fudge sundae, except could you please put the choc fudge into the Big Mac instead of on the sundae?
Readers, some of them will do this. And I'm here to tell you that it tastes very very nearly identical.
posted by flabdablet at 12:25 PM on October 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
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posted by acb at 5:21 PM on October 1, 2020 [4 favorites]