How do you experience time?
May 9, 2022 5:22 PM Subscribe
TikToker erica_mallett asks "If I say we have a meeting at midday, then ask if we can move it forward 2 hours, what time is that?"
Here's her reasoning on the two possible answers.
Ah ha! I’ve always found “spring forward, fall back” to be confusing, and now I finally know why.
(Instead, I remember that we lose an hour of sleep the weekend before the big standardized tests I had to take every year as a kid.)
posted by danielparks at 5:46 PM on May 9, 2022
(Instead, I remember that we lose an hour of sleep the weekend before the big standardized tests I had to take every year as a kid.)
posted by danielparks at 5:46 PM on May 9, 2022
We can't move midday, sorry.
posted by bonehead at 5:50 PM on May 9, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 5:50 PM on May 9, 2022 [22 favorites]
Well, not with that attitude.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:51 PM on May 9, 2022 [43 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:51 PM on May 9, 2022 [43 favorites]
I don't know if it's because I'm moving through time or whatever, the subject I'm in position to is the meeting and there're conventions in business English grammar, so for clarity's sake we tend to say 'earlier/later' but naturally this norm falls apart with monolinguals and the habit to only think in their specific vernaculars. In any case, I've yet to encounter (in my international standard English setting), native English speakers who don't use 'moving forward' to mean an earlier meeting at 10am. I suspect the level of registered confusion on TikTok must correlate with those who don't work yet in multipolar office settings.
posted by cendawanita at 5:52 PM on May 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 5:52 PM on May 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's 2:00 and anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong and insane.
I asked my son and he agrees.
Only with 10:00.
posted by The Bellman at 5:53 PM on May 9, 2022 [19 favorites]
I asked my son and he agrees.
Only with 10:00.
posted by The Bellman at 5:53 PM on May 9, 2022 [19 favorites]
We have 'earlier' and 'later' to use with time, and 'forward' and 'backward' to use with space. Why in the world would you import a metaphorical use of 'forward' from space into time? Because you want to hurt me?
posted by Jasper Fnorde at 5:54 PM on May 9, 2022 [58 favorites]
posted by Jasper Fnorde at 5:54 PM on May 9, 2022 [58 favorites]
Mefi Wiki: You WHAT - What is time, anyway?
posted by zamboni at 5:57 PM on May 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by zamboni at 5:57 PM on May 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
Why in the world would you import a metaphorical use of 'forward' from space into time?
Serious answer: because of calendars which translate time into space.
posted by muddgirl at 5:59 PM on May 9, 2022 [11 favorites]
Serious answer: because of calendars which translate time into space.
posted by muddgirl at 5:59 PM on May 9, 2022 [11 favorites]
It's 2:00 and anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong and insane.
This is very surprising to me, but maybe it's regional. If they had said "move the meeting back 2 hours" you would interpret that as making it earlier (10 AM)?
posted by justkevin at 6:00 PM on May 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
This is very surprising to me, but maybe it's regional. If they had said "move the meeting back 2 hours" you would interpret that as making it earlier (10 AM)?
posted by justkevin at 6:00 PM on May 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
(well, calendars and clocks and diaries and all the other physical representations of time)
posted by muddgirl at 6:00 PM on May 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 6:00 PM on May 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
But if I ask to push it back two hours everyone knows what I mean.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:02 PM on May 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:02 PM on May 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
this is a semantic argument trying to make another viral blue/gold/black/white "fetch" dress thing happen
posted by glonous keming at 6:03 PM on May 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 6:03 PM on May 9, 2022 [9 favorites]
It can be either stupidheads! Also it's spring forward, fall back.
posted by evilDoug at 6:04 PM on May 9, 2022
posted by evilDoug at 6:04 PM on May 9, 2022
We can't move midday, sorry.
Well, not with that attitude.
You can't with attitude. Arguably you can with longitude.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:04 PM on May 9, 2022 [39 favorites]
Well, not with that attitude.
You can't with attitude. Arguably you can with longitude.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:04 PM on May 9, 2022 [39 favorites]
The correct answer is to avoid the confusing phrasing altogether. "Can we delay the meeting 2 hours" is completely unambiguous.
posted by JDHarper at 6:06 PM on May 9, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by JDHarper at 6:06 PM on May 9, 2022 [20 favorites]
"Midday next Friday" on a Monday - is it 4 days or 11?
posted by whatevernot at 6:08 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by whatevernot at 6:08 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
10 am, and I only reach that answer by first positioning it opposite to "push back" (which, to my brain, is immediately 2 pm). That extra mental step means I hate the phrase and would rather people just use specific times.
In any other context, "move forward" and "push back" are essentially the same direction.
posted by lesser weasel at 6:09 PM on May 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
In any other context, "move forward" and "push back" are essentially the same direction.
posted by lesser weasel at 6:09 PM on May 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
That's "this Friday" (4 days) or "Friday week" (11 days).
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:10 PM on May 9, 2022
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:10 PM on May 9, 2022
he correct answer is to avoid the confusing phrasing altogether. "Can we delay the meeting 2 hours" is completely unambiguous.
I firmly disagree and the only correct way to handle this situation is say "Can we move the meeting to 2pm"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:10 PM on May 9, 2022 [21 favorites]
I firmly disagree and the only correct way to handle this situation is say "Can we move the meeting to 2pm"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:10 PM on May 9, 2022 [21 favorites]
I now suspect that the people who say 2:00 are the ones who are late for everything.
Move it forward = "Move it forward along the axis of time."
Move it back = "Move it away from me along the axis of time."
Keep it at as scheduled = "I forgot that was today."
posted by justkevin at 6:11 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
Move it forward = "Move it forward along the axis of time."
Move it back = "Move it away from me along the axis of time."
Keep it at as scheduled = "I forgot that was today."
posted by justkevin at 6:11 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
'forward' is ambiguous. 'Move it up' if you want it sooner, 'push it back' I'd you want it later.
posted by fings at 6:11 PM on May 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by fings at 6:11 PM on May 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
Why in the world would you import a metaphorical use of 'forward' from space into time? I believe it is well established that one second is 299792458 meters long. Like, that's literally the definition of the meter. That's why I always measure distance in fractions of a second. "How far to the gas station?" people will ask, and I'll say "Oh, about, one three hundred thousandth of a second..."
In any case, the correct response to the OP question is "I guess it's time to skip that meeting! Thanks for the excuse!" and then out loud say "OK!"
posted by surlyben at 6:13 PM on May 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
In any case, the correct response to the OP question is "I guess it's time to skip that meeting! Thanks for the excuse!" and then out loud say "OK!"
posted by surlyben at 6:13 PM on May 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
When "this Friday" exists, "next Friday" unambigiously means "Not this week."
posted by emelenjr at 6:14 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by emelenjr at 6:14 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
I firmly disagree and the only correct way to handle this situation is say "Can we move the meeting to 2pm"
Even better! Likewise, just say "Friday the 20th at noon" instead of "next Friday."
posted by JDHarper at 6:18 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
Even better! Likewise, just say "Friday the 20th at noon" instead of "next Friday."
posted by JDHarper at 6:18 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
I now suspect that the people who say 2:00 are the ones who are late for everything.
I am late to everything and I say 10am is the right answer.
(But I'll actually be there around 10:15am)
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:22 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
I am late to everything and I say 10am is the right answer.
(But I'll actually be there around 10:15am)
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:22 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
There are people who think of themselves as moving through time?!
There are people who think of time as moving through them?!
People, listen to me: you are time.
posted by dobbs at 6:23 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
There are people who think of time as moving through them?!
People, listen to me: you are time.
posted by dobbs at 6:23 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
Well you are a time worm, at least.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:24 PM on May 9, 2022
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:24 PM on May 9, 2022
And you move at the speed of light.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:25 PM on May 9, 2022
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:25 PM on May 9, 2022
I have always admired the Indian English verb 'to prepone' to go with 'to postpone'. It's so sensible because it describes moveable agreements in time.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:26 PM on May 9, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:26 PM on May 9, 2022 [11 favorites]
I know the "correct" answer (because of every environment I've been in where people say it) is 10am.
I hate it.
I hate it so much.
I have to do this awkward mental translation every time I hear it to make sure I know what the person is saying. One day I'll wind up surrounded by people who just say "earlier" or "later" and I'll know bliss.
posted by curious nu at 6:26 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
I hate it.
I hate it so much.
I have to do this awkward mental translation every time I hear it to make sure I know what the person is saying. One day I'll wind up surrounded by people who just say "earlier" or "later" and I'll know bliss.
posted by curious nu at 6:26 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
My husband and I have different meanings for "next Friday"; he means the one that occurs directly after (so next Friday on a Monday means 4 days from then), and I'm on team "that's this Friday, next Friday is 11 days away". We clarify now by asking "my next Friday or your next Friday?".
We do appear to both be on team 10am for this one, so at least we've got that going for us.
posted by damayanti at 6:41 PM on May 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
We do appear to both be on team 10am for this one, so at least we've got that going for us.
posted by damayanti at 6:41 PM on May 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
pre-2020: "Meeting at noon? This better be an emergency, or there'd better be pizza!"
post-2020: "Wait, what time zone is this person in?"
posted by meowzilla at 6:46 PM on May 9, 2022 [12 favorites]
post-2020: "Wait, what time zone is this person in?"
posted by meowzilla at 6:46 PM on May 9, 2022 [12 favorites]
I’m exactly where curious is on this… the phrase paints a mental image of 2 in my brain, but I understand that the requester will usually see it the other way.
Also, don’t phrase a request this way.
Also, if it’s internal, just hit my calendar. I don’t need an email about it.
posted by condour75 at 7:00 PM on May 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also, don’t phrase a request this way.
Also, if it’s internal, just hit my calendar. I don’t need an email about it.
posted by condour75 at 7:00 PM on May 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
I just had something similar last week, but ironically (to me at least), it was in the context of a comp sci homework problem. My daughter couldn't figure it why her tests were off. I looked at her code and it looked correct to me; after more digging, I realized her professor had used "front" and "back" when specifying where new nodes in a linked list should go.
My daughter (naturally, I thought) aligned those with the head and tail, respectively. (Head and tail are pretty standard terms when dealing with a list in comp sci.) Turned out that the "front" was also called "above" elsewhere in the assignment because it referred to higher memory addresses. Thus "front" meant at the tail end.
As Emo Phillips once said, "Ambiguity: the devil's volleyball."
posted by Ickster at 7:02 PM on May 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
My daughter (naturally, I thought) aligned those with the head and tail, respectively. (Head and tail are pretty standard terms when dealing with a list in comp sci.) Turned out that the "front" was also called "above" elsewhere in the assignment because it referred to higher memory addresses. Thus "front" meant at the tail end.
As Emo Phillips once said, "Ambiguity: the devil's volleyball."
posted by Ickster at 7:02 PM on May 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
Backwards and forwards are opposites.
We all know what going backwards in time means.
posted by skyscraper at 7:15 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
We all know what going backwards in time means.
posted by skyscraper at 7:15 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
Paging John McTaggart to the blue courtesy phone. Or is it gold? Seriously, this is just a viral rehash of A and B time, right?
A and B series
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 7:19 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
A and B series
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 7:19 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
I firmly disagree and the only correct way to handle this situation is say "Can we move the meeting to 2pm"
I disagree and the only correctish way to handle this situation is to say "Can we move the meeting to 2pm my time?" Really the correct way would be to ask to move the meeting to the appropriate zulu time (or UTC) but that feels like asking too much.
Also, this Wednesday is the Wednesday of this week irrespective of what day it is. "I did that this Wednesday" is a perfectly cromulent thing to say on Friday. Next Wednesday is the next Wednesday to happen, whether that's in this week or the next. "Next Wendesday" isn't somehow more than "this Wednesday." "This Wednesday" and "next Wednesday" are like left and starboard. I recognize that my way of thinking is not the norm but it will be once the drones implant the Corrective Devices.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:34 PM on May 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
I disagree and the only correctish way to handle this situation is to say "Can we move the meeting to 2pm my time?" Really the correct way would be to ask to move the meeting to the appropriate zulu time (or UTC) but that feels like asking too much.
Also, this Wednesday is the Wednesday of this week irrespective of what day it is. "I did that this Wednesday" is a perfectly cromulent thing to say on Friday. Next Wednesday is the next Wednesday to happen, whether that's in this week or the next. "Next Wendesday" isn't somehow more than "this Wednesday." "This Wednesday" and "next Wednesday" are like left and starboard. I recognize that my way of thinking is not the norm but it will be once the drones implant the Corrective Devices.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:34 PM on May 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think it is 10am. The reason being that the language that a meeting has been "pushed back" two hours is unambiguously 2pm, and it is consistent that "moving a meeting back" two hours has the same meaning.
posted by piyushnz at 7:40 PM on May 9, 2022
posted by piyushnz at 7:40 PM on May 9, 2022
The only way to do this correctly (and without the inevitable questions about what exactly you mean) is to say 'can we move this meeting to 10:00 am
posted by dg at 7:44 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by dg at 7:44 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
bringing a meeting forward means moving it closer to me in time
This is correct. Bringing it forward also is bringing it closer to you on the calendar.
It's 10AM. But people who move meetings forward are monsters.
posted by corb at 7:52 PM on May 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
This is correct. Bringing it forward also is bringing it closer to you on the calendar.
It's 10AM. But people who move meetings forward are monsters.
posted by corb at 7:52 PM on May 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
The correct answer is to avoid the confusing phrasing altogether. "Can we delay the meeting 2 hours" is completely unambiguous.
True, but the sad truth is that those who use ambiguous phrasing are often 100% certain they are not doing so. It's sort of a linguistic reflection of Dunning-Kruger.
In a past life I worked in the national office of a business which had both directly-owned outlets and franchisees across the country. The franchises dealt with their regional offices for almost everything, but their liability insurance had to list both the regional and the national offices as "additional insured." Thus, both the region and national office had a vested interest in making sure the insurance was up to date. As a courtesy, when one level found out that a franchisee had renewed, they would usually inform the other.
All this to say I received an e-mail once from a guy at one of the regional offices in reference to one of the franchises in their region. In its entirety, the body of the message read, "Just want to confirm the insurance for ______ has been renewed."
There is pretty much a fifty-fifty chance he was either informing me that it had been done already or he was asking me if it had been done already. I read it a dozen times looking for any hint. In taking ten seconds instead of fifteen to write a message, he got me to invest twenty times as much to try to puzzle out a meaning.
These days I am contributing to an international project which involves the input of a more than a dozen people on five continents with six native languages collectively (roughly half are native English speakers). The work is being drafted in English for eventual translation to other languages and despite regular reminders to use clear and straightforward language, my fellow Anglos often write with far too much ambiguity to be entirely clear to other native speakers, let alone future translators.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:14 PM on May 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
True, but the sad truth is that those who use ambiguous phrasing are often 100% certain they are not doing so. It's sort of a linguistic reflection of Dunning-Kruger.
In a past life I worked in the national office of a business which had both directly-owned outlets and franchisees across the country. The franchises dealt with their regional offices for almost everything, but their liability insurance had to list both the regional and the national offices as "additional insured." Thus, both the region and national office had a vested interest in making sure the insurance was up to date. As a courtesy, when one level found out that a franchisee had renewed, they would usually inform the other.
All this to say I received an e-mail once from a guy at one of the regional offices in reference to one of the franchises in their region. In its entirety, the body of the message read, "Just want to confirm the insurance for ______ has been renewed."
There is pretty much a fifty-fifty chance he was either informing me that it had been done already or he was asking me if it had been done already. I read it a dozen times looking for any hint. In taking ten seconds instead of fifteen to write a message, he got me to invest twenty times as much to try to puzzle out a meaning.
These days I am contributing to an international project which involves the input of a more than a dozen people on five continents with six native languages collectively (roughly half are native English speakers). The work is being drafted in English for eventual translation to other languages and despite regular reminders to use clear and straightforward language, my fellow Anglos often write with far too much ambiguity to be entirely clear to other native speakers, let alone future translators.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:14 PM on May 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
- "This Monday" is next Monday
- "Next Monday" is next Monday unless it's Sunday or Monday, in which case it's Monday Week.
- "Monday Week" is two Mondays away. ie; Go to the This Monday, then it's Next Monday.
my fellow Anglos often write with far too much ambiguity to be entirely clear to other native speakers, let alone future translators.
Half the problem is that you guys simply don't see when you're deep in your vernacular because you never had to try.
posted by cendawanita at 9:04 PM on May 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
Half the problem is that you guys simply don't see when you're deep in your vernacular because you never had to try.
posted by cendawanita at 9:04 PM on May 9, 2022 [10 favorites]
Oddly, my brain immediately went to 2pm with that phrasing, but it similarly treats "bring it forward" as unambiguously meaning earlier. Maybe a Britishism?
posted by Dysk at 9:14 PM on May 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 9:14 PM on May 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
You can't with attitude. Arguably you can with longitude.
Ongitude, surely.
posted by flabdablet at 9:20 PM on May 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Ongitude, surely.
posted by flabdablet at 9:20 PM on May 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
you guys simply don't see when you're deep in your vernacular
It's quite dark up there.
posted by flabdablet at 9:28 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
It's quite dark up there.
posted by flabdablet at 9:28 PM on May 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
This thing comes down to a difference in conceiving conceptual metaphors, and projecting spatial metaphors to time is one of the most commonplace of them. The explanation provided is almost, but not quite right. It is a case of differences in thinking who is the subject, who is the one doing the metaphorical acting: whether you, or the meeting time. If you project yourself as the active participant to the time, moving forward means 2pm, much like if asked to step forward, you don't step backwards. But if the "agent" is thought to be the meeting, moving forward means moving closer to you, much like if you asked a person facing you to take a step forward, in which case they step closer to you, not farther away.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 9:46 PM on May 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 9:46 PM on May 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
Bottom line
At the end of the day, the end of day meetings that cover management of overtime have been running overtime and impacting productivity, so to get real productivity impact management will continue to move those forward going forward.
posted by flabdablet at 10:04 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
At the end of the day, the end of day meetings that cover management of overtime have been running overtime and impacting productivity, so to get real productivity impact management will continue to move those forward going forward.
posted by flabdablet at 10:04 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
I disagree and the only correctish way to handle this situation is to say "Can we move the meeting to 2pm my time?" Really the correct way would be to ask to move the meeting to the appropriate zulu time (or UTC) but that feels like asking too much.
Pfft, 2pm UTC? @540.
posted by Dysk at 10:10 PM on May 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Pfft, 2pm UTC? @540.
posted by Dysk at 10:10 PM on May 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
The correct answer is DON’T SAY THAT.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:25 PM on May 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 10:25 PM on May 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
It's fine if you say that because that gives me a perfect excuse to miss your meeting!
posted by aubilenon at 10:26 PM on May 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 10:26 PM on May 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Indeed; using the ambiguity of clock times is fraught with dangers, such as those outlined in the post.
Instead, it is far better to orientate your day around common meals:
- Breakfast
- Elevenses
- Brunch
- Lunch
- Afternoon tea
- Dinner
- Supper
- Nightsnack
Therefore, in the stated example, instead of the ambiguity of bringing a meeting forward two hours from noon, you would say something like "We will commence convivial conversation at a'half before elevenses".
Problem solved.
posted by Wordshore at 11:12 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
Instead, it is far better to orientate your day around common meals:
- Breakfast
- Elevenses
- Brunch
- Lunch
- Afternoon tea
- Dinner
- Supper
- Nightsnack
Therefore, in the stated example, instead of the ambiguity of bringing a meeting forward two hours from noon, you would say something like "We will commence convivial conversation at a'half before elevenses".
Problem solved.
posted by Wordshore at 11:12 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
There’s a reason it’s usually phrased* as ‘bring it forward’ and ‘push it back’, with ‘bringing’ implying something coming closer and ‘pushing’ implying something getting further away.
(*or should be)
posted by Salamander at 11:15 PM on May 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
(*or should be)
posted by Salamander at 11:15 PM on May 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Stick to on-the-hour meetings because "half-ten" is another layer of ambiguity / certainty.
posted by BobTheScientist at 11:23 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by BobTheScientist at 11:23 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
"Can we delay the meeting 2 hours" is completely unambiguous.
And if you want to move it to 10am you say "Can we undelay the meeting by 2 hours?"
posted by biffa at 11:50 PM on May 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
And if you want to move it to 10am you say "Can we undelay the meeting by 2 hours?"
posted by biffa at 11:50 PM on May 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
cendawanita: this norm falls apart with monolinguals and the habit to only think in their specific vernaculars
I think this may also have to do with how languages discuss time. In Icelandic, people say the equivalent of “move the meeting forward”and it seems fifty/fifty whether they mean earlier or later. I’m not a hundred percent sure with Finnish, but I feel like I’ve heard “eteenpäin” (forward) used ambiguously too. But there are languages that don’t qualify time with adverbs in the same way, so I imagine that particular confusion just wouldn’t come up. My gut instinct is that people who’ve grown up with the same ambiguity in their native language will replicate it in English.
posted by Kattullus at 12:03 AM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think this may also have to do with how languages discuss time. In Icelandic, people say the equivalent of “move the meeting forward”and it seems fifty/fifty whether they mean earlier or later. I’m not a hundred percent sure with Finnish, but I feel like I’ve heard “eteenpäin” (forward) used ambiguously too. But there are languages that don’t qualify time with adverbs in the same way, so I imagine that particular confusion just wouldn’t come up. My gut instinct is that people who’ve grown up with the same ambiguity in their native language will replicate it in English.
posted by Kattullus at 12:03 AM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Is there a name for the unconscious rules about a language where some constructions 'work' or 'don't work'?
Like little antique silver safety scissors vs any other adjective order?
And if you're not native to the local vernacular, you're stuck trying to figure out if 'half seven' means 6:30 or 7:30?
posted by bartleby at 12:10 AM on May 10, 2022
Like little antique silver safety scissors vs any other adjective order?
And if you're not native to the local vernacular, you're stuck trying to figure out if 'half seven' means 6:30 or 7:30?
posted by bartleby at 12:10 AM on May 10, 2022
Kattullus: My gut instinct is that people who’ve grown up with the same ambiguity in their native language will replicate it in English.
That's generally true, though in this case I rarely encounter this mixed metaphor (imo) outside of raised-in-English-mainly speakers. That said, I'm from a region that's known to be neutral for gender pronouns (kinda like Finnish? But we basically reproduce the same s/he mistakes as a rule, not to mention we don't really make a point to be distinct about plurals either), not to mention for time, we don't reflect that in verb conjugations/tenses. So likely if this is a Western language groups feature (which is inherited in the European diasporas in America for example), then it explains how I don't encounter it with other groups.
I'm trying to think in my home languages, and I don't think we naturally think of time as spatial concept or at least the equivalent for 'forward' is already disambiguated to one set of words for spatial movement and the other one is chronological. That said, in Singaporean and Malaysian English ie the local creole, the grammar rule for time tends to adopt the Chinese/Malay one so what happens is that we'd add another word anyway (that adjusts the temporal value of the statement), since those languages don't have tenses, as mentioned. Of course that's my first English, so naturally I feel that is clearer, heh.
posted by cendawanita at 12:35 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
That's generally true, though in this case I rarely encounter this mixed metaphor (imo) outside of raised-in-English-mainly speakers. That said, I'm from a region that's known to be neutral for gender pronouns (kinda like Finnish? But we basically reproduce the same s/he mistakes as a rule, not to mention we don't really make a point to be distinct about plurals either), not to mention for time, we don't reflect that in verb conjugations/tenses. So likely if this is a Western language groups feature (which is inherited in the European diasporas in America for example), then it explains how I don't encounter it with other groups.
I'm trying to think in my home languages, and I don't think we naturally think of time as spatial concept or at least the equivalent for 'forward' is already disambiguated to one set of words for spatial movement and the other one is chronological. That said, in Singaporean and Malaysian English ie the local creole, the grammar rule for time tends to adopt the Chinese/Malay one so what happens is that we'd add another word anyway (that adjusts the temporal value of the statement), since those languages don't have tenses, as mentioned. Of course that's my first English, so naturally I feel that is clearer, heh.
posted by cendawanita at 12:35 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
trying to figure out if 'half seven' means 6:30 or 7:30?
German ears would correlate it to the unambiguous “halb sieben”, which only ever means “halfway to seven”, so 6:30. The other (UK) English meaning has elided part of the phrase, which was originally, and unambiguously, “half past seven”, 7:30.
On move/bring forward vs. move/push back, Italian usage has two options, either using “anticipare/posticipare”, or, eschewing this level of abstraction, sticking to more direct “prima” (earlier) vs. “dopo” (later); in rescheduling, the former terms relate to the meeting, while the latter have the participants, not the meeting, as their subject, so either “Anticipiamo/Posticipiamo di un paio d’ore?”, or, more commonly “Facciamo due ore prima/dopo?”, can we do two hours earlier/later?, or else stating a proposed new time, in these global-Zoom-times appendixed with its three-letter timezone label.
(Interestingly, “anticipare” very much ≠ to anticipate.)
posted by progosk at 12:50 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
German ears would correlate it to the unambiguous “halb sieben”, which only ever means “halfway to seven”, so 6:30. The other (UK) English meaning has elided part of the phrase, which was originally, and unambiguously, “half past seven”, 7:30.
On move/bring forward vs. move/push back, Italian usage has two options, either using “anticipare/posticipare”, or, eschewing this level of abstraction, sticking to more direct “prima” (earlier) vs. “dopo” (later); in rescheduling, the former terms relate to the meeting, while the latter have the participants, not the meeting, as their subject, so either “Anticipiamo/Posticipiamo di un paio d’ore?”, or, more commonly “Facciamo due ore prima/dopo?”, can we do two hours earlier/later?, or else stating a proposed new time, in these global-Zoom-times appendixed with its three-letter timezone label.
(Interestingly, “anticipare” very much ≠ to anticipate.)
posted by progosk at 12:50 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Time marches on. Therefore, “forward” must be 2pm.
posted by thejoshu at 1:24 AM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by thejoshu at 1:24 AM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Moving the meeting forward two hours from midday to me is unambiguously 10am, and it's usage I've encountered before. Moving the meeting back two hours would be 2pm. "Push it back 2 hours" makes 2pm even clearer. If, however, someone said "push the meeting forward" I'd look to confirm exactly what they meant because they've strayed from the idiomatic track and I'm wary of a mixup.
"Half seven" = "Half {past} seven" = 7:30 is also completely unambiguous in British English. It's only a problem if you are dealing with non-native English speakers (German or Dutch spring to mind) becuase those languages have different logic.
I've been learning some Dutch and they have a really interesting (to me) way of dealing with clock time - to express the time 5:35 I might say in English "It is 25 to 6", but in Dutch it's "Het is vijf over half zes." or literally "It is five past half six"
posted by Urtylug at 1:44 AM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Half seven" = "Half {past} seven" = 7:30 is also completely unambiguous in British English. It's only a problem if you are dealing with non-native English speakers (German or Dutch spring to mind) becuase those languages have different logic.
I've been learning some Dutch and they have a really interesting (to me) way of dealing with clock time - to express the time 5:35 I might say in English "It is 25 to 6", but in Dutch it's "Het is vijf over half zes." or literally "It is five past half six"
posted by Urtylug at 1:44 AM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
So in a meeting when someone uses the catchphrase "Moving forward..." are they actually talking about going backwards?
posted by Lanark at 1:52 AM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Lanark at 1:52 AM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
languages sure mess with this stuff - learning Mandarin it's all backwards compared to English - effectively in Mandarin the future is behind you and the past in front of you - quite the opposite of how we think of it in English
day after tomorrow - 后天
day before yesterday - 前天
后 means behind, 前 means in front, 天 means day
Of course there's no correct way, they're just different, but confusing moving between worlds
posted by mbo at 2:16 AM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
day after tomorrow - 后天
day before yesterday - 前天
后 means behind, 前 means in front, 天 means day
Of course there's no correct way, they're just different, but confusing moving between worlds
posted by mbo at 2:16 AM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
This thread could have been an email.
posted by automatronic at 2:20 AM on May 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by automatronic at 2:20 AM on May 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
We all know what going backwards in time means.
Sure: It's what happens to America every time the Republicans are in power.
posted by Paul Slade at 3:05 AM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
Sure: It's what happens to America every time the Republicans are in power.
posted by Paul Slade at 3:05 AM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'll agree the phrase is ambiguous if you try to puzzle out its literal meaning. But it has an specific meaning in English, as multiple dictionaries agree:
- Collins Dictionary
- Macmillan
- Cambridge
- Dictionary.com
Think of the meeting as an object in a landscape of other objects. If the meeting-object is brought forward, it comes closer to you. If it's pushed back, it goes further away.
The other interpretation makes sense. It's just not the definition that English settled on.
posted by davidwitteveen at 3:35 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
- Collins Dictionary
- Macmillan
- Cambridge
- Dictionary.com
Think of the meeting as an object in a landscape of other objects. If the meeting-object is brought forward, it comes closer to you. If it's pushed back, it goes further away.
The other interpretation makes sense. It's just not the definition that English settled on.
posted by davidwitteveen at 3:35 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
bringing a meeting forward means moving it closer to me in time
I agree but she doesn't say that - she says "can we move the meeting forwards two hours"...
I don't think it has anything to do with how we experience time but merely vague language....
And anyone having meetings would clarify the time anyway as they were asking this...
posted by skinnerneil at 3:54 AM on May 10, 2022
I agree but she doesn't say that - she says "can we move the meeting forwards two hours"...
I don't think it has anything to do with how we experience time but merely vague language....
And anyone having meetings would clarify the time anyway as they were asking this...
posted by skinnerneil at 3:54 AM on May 10, 2022
I love language ambiguity. Now let's discuss the meaning of the verb "to table". As in to table a document. Does it mean to set it aside for another time, or does it mean to discuss now?
But on topic, "to move forward" to me means earlier. So 10 a.m.
posted by aclevername at 4:06 AM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
But on topic, "to move forward" to me means earlier. So 10 a.m.
posted by aclevername at 4:06 AM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
I must be a real outlier. To me "midday" is 2pm-ish. We have a word for noon. It's "noon".
posted by mono blanco at 5:23 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mono blanco at 5:23 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Oh and p.s., sorry I'm late to the discussion.
posted by mono blanco at 5:24 AM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by mono blanco at 5:24 AM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
trying to figure out if 'half seven' means 6:30 or 7:30?
It means 3:30 right? half of seven is 3.5.
posted by nushustu at 5:29 AM on May 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
It means 3:30 right? half of seven is 3.5.
posted by nushustu at 5:29 AM on May 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
I came here with the same issue as mono blanco. Mid-day is a stretch of time, from approximately 11am-1pm, depending on the speaker. So the new meeting could be at 9 am, which is (or at least should be) grounds for immediate deportation to a re-education camp to learn how not to be a monster.
posted by Hactar at 6:19 AM on May 10, 2022
posted by Hactar at 6:19 AM on May 10, 2022
Prepone!
posted by sixswitch at 6:37 AM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by sixswitch at 6:37 AM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's almost as if using words that mean different things to different people results in different people giving different answers.
posted by niicholas at 6:46 AM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by niicholas at 6:46 AM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
I always have trouble remembering if the “quarter of [hour]” regionalism from the northeast US means “quarter till” or “quarter after.” But I have never in my life heard the “Friday week”/“Monday week”/“Wednesday week” thing that’s popping up in this thread. That means “next Friday” (etc.)??? It sounds like a Garfield dream sequence to find yourself in Monday Week.
posted by stopgap at 7:00 AM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by stopgap at 7:00 AM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
My colleagues speak of delayed projects ‘slipping to the right’.
posted by Phanx at 7:17 AM on May 10, 2022
posted by Phanx at 7:17 AM on May 10, 2022
Seconding the usefulness of prepone/postpone.
Also, always specify time zones. (Somewhat confusingly, I live in Eastern time but am working on projects where most of my colleagues are on Central time, so I tend to interpret un-specified time zones as Central.)
posted by madcaptenor at 7:29 AM on May 10, 2022
Also, always specify time zones. (Somewhat confusingly, I live in Eastern time but am working on projects where most of my colleagues are on Central time, so I tend to interpret un-specified time zones as Central.)
posted by madcaptenor at 7:29 AM on May 10, 2022
I'm really glad to see I'm not alone in the "Mid-day is 2ish" camp - because I don't know what you noon folks are thinking. (And I say if you move it forward 2 hours than the meeting is at noonish)
posted by KirTakat at 7:33 AM on May 10, 2022
posted by KirTakat at 7:33 AM on May 10, 2022
Phanx: My colleagues speak of delayed projects ‘slipping to the right’.
My Gantt chart peeps!
posted by Laura in Canada at 7:33 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
My Gantt chart peeps!
posted by Laura in Canada at 7:33 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Also, when is "25 or 6 to 4"?
posted by madcaptenor at 7:34 AM on May 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by madcaptenor at 7:34 AM on May 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
in Mandarin the future is behind you and the past in front of you
This is how one pictures the angel of history. His face is turned toward the past. Where we perceive a chain of events, he sees one single catastrophe which keeps piling wreckage upon wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet.posted by clew at 9:15 AM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also the "bottom" of the hour is the same as the "top" of the hour because once you've reached the bottom you've used it all up, there's no more hour, and it's on to the next one.
posted by grog at 9:31 AM on May 10, 2022
posted by grog at 9:31 AM on May 10, 2022
I can see the ambiguity in "move it forward" in a vacuum, but I think "move it back" unambiguously means "delay", and so, "move it forward" has to be a request to make it earlier.
posted by Reyturner at 9:42 AM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Reyturner at 9:42 AM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Didn't Philomena Cunk already succinctly answer this question?
posted by SystematicAbuse at 9:49 AM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by SystematicAbuse at 9:49 AM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
Time marches on. Therefore, “forward” must be 2pm.
Time is an illusion. There is only one time, ever, the present. Events in our future line up and march towards us, a long line pushed forward by our own death, ever eager to reach us, inevitable, inexorable, unchangeable.
Except for that midday meeting, which somehow just cut forward in line and is now at 10 AM.
posted by mark k at 9:50 AM on May 10, 2022
Time is an illusion. There is only one time, ever, the present. Events in our future line up and march towards us, a long line pushed forward by our own death, ever eager to reach us, inevitable, inexorable, unchangeable.
Except for that midday meeting, which somehow just cut forward in line and is now at 10 AM.
posted by mark k at 9:50 AM on May 10, 2022
Oh hey, this is Lera Boroditsky's work on cultural conceptions of time! It's fun stuff. Here are some interesting resources to take this further:
Podcast episode with her talking about thought, space, time and more
Article on how language shapes the way we think
Her research demonstrates many different conceptions, with things often being highly contextual, and sometimes even subject to fascinating priming effects!
posted by iamkimiam at 10:24 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Podcast episode with her talking about thought, space, time and more
Article on how language shapes the way we think
Her research demonstrates many different conceptions, with things often being highly contextual, and sometimes even subject to fascinating priming effects!
posted by iamkimiam at 10:24 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
So here's a weird thing I realized with my linguistic intuition & usage.
I think "move the midday meeting forward two hours" is a bit ambiguous. I can see either side and would, in real life, confirm what was meant.
If someone says "move this Friday's meeting forward two days" I am 100% confident they want to have the meeting two days earlier. I have trouble imagining anyone meaning they want it later, and would simply agree and reschedule.
posted by mark k at 10:42 AM on May 10, 2022
I think "move the midday meeting forward two hours" is a bit ambiguous. I can see either side and would, in real life, confirm what was meant.
If someone says "move this Friday's meeting forward two days" I am 100% confident they want to have the meeting two days earlier. I have trouble imagining anyone meaning they want it later, and would simply agree and reschedule.
posted by mark k at 10:42 AM on May 10, 2022
If someone says "move this Friday's meeting forward two days" I am 100% confident they want to have the meeting two days earlier. I have trouble imagining anyone meaning they want it later, and would simply agree and reschedule.
I suspect the metaphor is more powerful in this context. Calendars usually set out days laterally, and we are very used to the idea that lines of symbols are ordered from left to right. So if I say "move that word forward", it's obvious that I mean bring it closer to the start of the sequence.
When talking about time you're more reliant on interpretation of a general spacial metaphor that seems pretty ambiguous in itself: if I move an object in front of me forward, does it get closer or further away?
I feel like, as a rule*, the object gets closer and that the meeting is at 10am and suspect these things may be linked.
* It doesn't seem clear-cut. Does it depend what kind of object it is? And what about the verb used? If I pull a balloon forward, I feel like it goes opposite to a drawer pulled forward. So does that mean anything? Probably yes and no. Wheee! Thinking about the metaphors underpinning our concepts is a giddy business.
posted by howfar at 11:22 AM on May 10, 2022
I suspect the metaphor is more powerful in this context. Calendars usually set out days laterally, and we are very used to the idea that lines of symbols are ordered from left to right. So if I say "move that word forward", it's obvious that I mean bring it closer to the start of the sequence.
When talking about time you're more reliant on interpretation of a general spacial metaphor that seems pretty ambiguous in itself: if I move an object in front of me forward, does it get closer or further away?
I feel like, as a rule*, the object gets closer and that the meeting is at 10am and suspect these things may be linked.
* It doesn't seem clear-cut. Does it depend what kind of object it is? And what about the verb used? If I pull a balloon forward, I feel like it goes opposite to a drawer pulled forward. So does that mean anything? Probably yes and no. Wheee! Thinking about the metaphors underpinning our concepts is a giddy business.
posted by howfar at 11:22 AM on May 10, 2022
Mefi Wiki: You WHAT - What is time, anyway?
When I first saw this TikTok my first thought was "ugh, didn't we already discuss this on Metafilter like ten years ago?" and as it turns out, it was more like fifteen years ago so I guess that's how I experience time.
posted by lampoil at 11:22 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
When I first saw this TikTok my first thought was "ugh, didn't we already discuss this on Metafilter like ten years ago?" and as it turns out, it was more like fifteen years ago so I guess that's how I experience time.
posted by lampoil at 11:22 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Didn't Philomena Cunk already succinctly answer this question?
... ..Yes.
posted by howfar at 11:32 AM on May 10, 2022
... ..Yes.
posted by howfar at 11:32 AM on May 10, 2022
bringing a meeting forward means moving it closer to me in time
But why? Moving an object that is in front of you in space forward often means pushing it away from you.
To me, "forward" in time means further into the future. When a clock say 1pm and you set it to 2pm, you are setting it forward.
I agree with everyone who says the correct approach is to avoid "forward" and "backward" when talking about changing the time of an event, given the confusion it causes.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:38 AM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
But why? Moving an object that is in front of you in space forward often means pushing it away from you.
To me, "forward" in time means further into the future. When a clock say 1pm and you set it to 2pm, you are setting it forward.
I agree with everyone who says the correct approach is to avoid "forward" and "backward" when talking about changing the time of an event, given the confusion it causes.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:38 AM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Lunchtime doubly so.
And don’t even get me started on naptime!
posted by evidenceofabsence at 11:43 AM on May 10, 2022
And don’t even get me started on naptime!
posted by evidenceofabsence at 11:43 AM on May 10, 2022
Backwards and forwards are opposites.
We all know what going backwards in time means.
Yes! This discussion always drives me absolutely batty. I can't believe that the same people talk about "traveling back in time" meaning going into the past and also "push back the meeting" meaning going into the future. People! Define the direction of your time axis and then stick with it!
posted by medusa at 11:56 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
We all know what going backwards in time means.
Yes! This discussion always drives me absolutely batty. I can't believe that the same people talk about "traveling back in time" meaning going into the past and also "push back the meeting" meaning going into the future. People! Define the direction of your time axis and then stick with it!
posted by medusa at 11:56 AM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Define the direction of your time axis and then stick with it!
It's not inconsistent, I think, if "back" in "push back" and "go back" is understood to express a direction relative to the speaker. If I "go back" I get further away from an object in front of me. If I "push back" that object, it gets further from me. Either way, the distance between me and the object increases.
I think it just depends on which spacial framework you apply, which is probably almost entirely a result of entirely impersonal and often random cultural and personal factors.
posted by howfar at 12:07 PM on May 10, 2022
It's not inconsistent, I think, if "back" in "push back" and "go back" is understood to express a direction relative to the speaker. If I "go back" I get further away from an object in front of me. If I "push back" that object, it gets further from me. Either way, the distance between me and the object increases.
I think it just depends on which spacial framework you apply, which is probably almost entirely a result of entirely impersonal and often random cultural and personal factors.
posted by howfar at 12:07 PM on May 10, 2022
If you project yourself as the active participant to the time, moving forward means 2pm, much like if asked to step forward, you don't step backwards. But if the "agent" is thought to be the meeting, moving forward means moving closer to you, much like if you asked a person facing you to take a step forward, in which case they step closer to you, not farther away.
this requires you to conceive of the meeting as facing & moving backwards in time, contrary to the direction everything else is moving
to which I am like "why the hell would it be doing that" but maybe that's the disconnect here
10 AM people: are you standing still in time letting the meeting move through you? cause I'm absolutely moving forwards through this fucking meeting
also idk if this came up already but if you say "Monday week" to Americans there's even odds they know what you're talking about or they think you mean an entire week of Mondays, like Shark Week
posted by taquito sunrise at 12:16 PM on May 10, 2022
this requires you to conceive of the meeting as facing & moving backwards in time, contrary to the direction everything else is moving
to which I am like "why the hell would it be doing that" but maybe that's the disconnect here
10 AM people: are you standing still in time letting the meeting move through you? cause I'm absolutely moving forwards through this fucking meeting
also idk if this came up already but if you say "Monday week" to Americans there's even odds they know what you're talking about or they think you mean an entire week of Mondays, like Shark Week
posted by taquito sunrise at 12:16 PM on May 10, 2022
What’s with this “midday” business? Midday?! Oh, you mean Noon.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 12:26 PM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 12:26 PM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
ok ok wait I got it to make sense in my head if you specify pushing back or pulling forwards relative to yourself
too bad we've arbitrarily decided "pull this meeting forwards" sounds wrong or shit'd be marginally clearer I guess
posted by taquito sunrise at 12:51 PM on May 10, 2022
too bad we've arbitrarily decided "pull this meeting forwards" sounds wrong or shit'd be marginally clearer I guess
posted by taquito sunrise at 12:51 PM on May 10, 2022
Anecdata: I'm from a US coast, and in grad school I hung out with a bunch of guys who moved from the Midwest to the coast. It took us months to figure out that we meant different things by "next Monday," and we had to resort to explicitly naming dates because every "next Monday" was followed by "wait, next Monday, or Midwest next Monday?"
I *think* I meant "this coming Monday" and they (Missouri, Iowa) meant "one week from this coming Monday," but it's been so long I might be wrong. But I was in my thirties before I got "bottom of the hour" and in my forties before I really got the phases of the moon... so maybe don't ask me, I guess?
posted by adekllny at 1:32 PM on May 10, 2022
I *think* I meant "this coming Monday" and they (Missouri, Iowa) meant "one week from this coming Monday," but it's been so long I might be wrong. But I was in my thirties before I got "bottom of the hour" and in my forties before I really got the phases of the moon... so maybe don't ask me, I guess?
posted by adekllny at 1:32 PM on May 10, 2022
Ugh. This stuff always causes confusion. Don't even start me on "this weekend" vs "next weekend", which changes meaning to people I know depending on where we are in the current week.
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:57 PM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:57 PM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Said he to me, "Now let me see if I have heard you then.
You'd like to move it backwards and meet up at two or ten.
You should have moved it forwards yesterday and saved today
For our group that meets tomorrow is too busy anyway.
"If you postponed the meeting yesterday now don't you see
We could have pushed tomorrow and be done today at three,
For the conference room allotment is, and much to my chagrin,
It's all booked up forever; you should email the admin."
(With apologies to The Kingston Trio)
posted by Dez at 2:02 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
You'd like to move it backwards and meet up at two or ten.
You should have moved it forwards yesterday and saved today
For our group that meets tomorrow is too busy anyway.
"If you postponed the meeting yesterday now don't you see
We could have pushed tomorrow and be done today at three,
For the conference room allotment is, and much to my chagrin,
It's all booked up forever; you should email the admin."
(With apologies to The Kingston Trio)
posted by Dez at 2:02 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Anything other than the exact time you want to move the meeting to is a communication failure JFC.
posted by aspersioncast at 2:23 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 2:23 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
move this Friday's meeting forward two days" I am 100% confident they want to have the meeting two days earlier. I have trouble imagining anyone meaning they want it later, and would simply agree and resched
Your confidence is misplaced because it's actually ambiguous as evidenced by this very thread. Say the day you want to have the meeting and use the goddamn date, that's why we have them!
posted by aspersioncast at 2:28 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Your confidence is misplaced because it's actually ambiguous as evidenced by this very thread. Say the day you want to have the meeting and use the goddamn date, that's why we have them!
posted by aspersioncast at 2:28 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
correct answer:
1. move the meeting to a superposition of 10a and 2p
2. when they message you asking if the meeting is still on because you're five minutes late, the probability wave collapses and you have your meeting
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:39 PM on May 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
1. move the meeting to a superposition of 10a and 2p
2. when they message you asking if the meeting is still on because you're five minutes late, the probability wave collapses and you have your meeting
posted by i used to be someone else at 2:39 PM on May 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
in Mandarin the future is behind you and the past in front of you - quite the opposite of how we think of it in English
Thanks for this info, mbo. When I'd heard this* described as a peculiarity of the language of the Aymara, it struck me as eminently logical, if we accept our perception as the epistemological discriminant - we see (have actual knowledge of) the past, the future is hidden/unknown to us, until it is unwittingly upon us. Indeed, there is some projective megalomania, and subtle alibi-crafting, in situating oneself to have a purview of what is yet to come, while coveniently placed to put "the past behind us", so we can unsee its lessons and legacies asap.
There seems a lot to unpack in the ethics&epistemology that comes with this kind of conceptual/linguistic volte-face...
* going back to read this piece now, the linguist interviewed describes Mandarin as having future and past on a vertical axis with respect to the speaker, above and below... what's that about, do you know?
posted by progosk at 2:41 PM on May 10, 2022
Thanks for this info, mbo. When I'd heard this* described as a peculiarity of the language of the Aymara, it struck me as eminently logical, if we accept our perception as the epistemological discriminant - we see (have actual knowledge of) the past, the future is hidden/unknown to us, until it is unwittingly upon us. Indeed, there is some projective megalomania, and subtle alibi-crafting, in situating oneself to have a purview of what is yet to come, while coveniently placed to put "the past behind us", so we can unsee its lessons and legacies asap.
There seems a lot to unpack in the ethics&epistemology that comes with this kind of conceptual/linguistic volte-face...
* going back to read this piece now, the linguist interviewed describes Mandarin as having future and past on a vertical axis with respect to the speaker, above and below... what's that about, do you know?
posted by progosk at 2:41 PM on May 10, 2022
If you turn-up the AC, are you raising or lowering the target temperature?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:44 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 2:44 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
It’s great to have these two differing conceptions of time!
In some instances, it’s useful to think of ourselves as the traveler, moving over space. In others, we are the experiencer, fixed in space, and events in time travel toward (or away from) us.
In English, both conceptions show up in our language. Having these options can be helpful for expressing our agency. Or our helplessness. The fixed nature of time. Or our malleable perception of it. Our excitement. Or our dread.
“We’re coming up to the main event.” (Traveler)
“Christmas is almost here / it’s getting closer!” (Experiencer)
“Only a few more sleeps until we get to the big day!” (Traveler)
“Wow. Time really flew by!” (Experiencer)
“The station is about 10 minutes from here.” (There is a definite answer to this one, but it’s breaking my brain to remember)
“It’s been a long day.” (Currently experiencing)
And sometimes — like is often the case with directions — our frame of reference is unclear. We lack context or necessary information to disambiguate.
“Move the meeting ahead please.”
We take these linguistic shortcuts because explaining things in explicit detail can be exhausting. We may not even have the cognitive wherewithal in the fleeting moment to notice that we’ve missed a beat there. The moment passes. There’s a lot of noise and distraction in our worlds and we’re rushing around in a race against the clock. And time waits for nobody!
posted by iamkimiam at 3:21 PM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
In some instances, it’s useful to think of ourselves as the traveler, moving over space. In others, we are the experiencer, fixed in space, and events in time travel toward (or away from) us.
In English, both conceptions show up in our language. Having these options can be helpful for expressing our agency. Or our helplessness. The fixed nature of time. Or our malleable perception of it. Our excitement. Or our dread.
“We’re coming up to the main event.” (Traveler)
“Christmas is almost here / it’s getting closer!” (Experiencer)
“Only a few more sleeps until we get to the big day!” (Traveler)
“Wow. Time really flew by!” (Experiencer)
“The station is about 10 minutes from here.” (There is a definite answer to this one, but it’s breaking my brain to remember)
“It’s been a long day.” (Currently experiencing)
And sometimes — like is often the case with directions — our frame of reference is unclear. We lack context or necessary information to disambiguate.
“Move the meeting ahead please.”
We take these linguistic shortcuts because explaining things in explicit detail can be exhausting. We may not even have the cognitive wherewithal in the fleeting moment to notice that we’ve missed a beat there. The moment passes. There’s a lot of noise and distraction in our worlds and we’re rushing around in a race against the clock. And time waits for nobody!
posted by iamkimiam at 3:21 PM on May 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
I must be a real outlier. To me "midday" is 2pm-ish. We have a word for noon. It's "noon".
Wait, aren't midday and noon synonyms? I always thing of midday as the opposite of midnight.
If anything I guess midday might imply something more like noonish, but if it's 2pm it's the afternoon, and afternoon is definitely not midday.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:11 PM on May 10, 2022
Wait, aren't midday and noon synonyms? I always thing of midday as the opposite of midnight.
If anything I guess midday might imply something more like noonish, but if it's 2pm it's the afternoon, and afternoon is definitely not midday.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:11 PM on May 10, 2022
Midnight:middle of the night::Noon:midday
0:00 : 3am :: 12:00 : 2pm
posted by bartleby at 7:23 PM on May 10, 2022
0:00 : 3am :: 12:00 : 2pm
posted by bartleby at 7:23 PM on May 10, 2022
In my lexicon, 2 PM is mid-afternoon, not mid-day. Midnight would count as the middle of the night for me. I don't know if I have a word for 3 AM; I guess if I have to think about it , it's just bad news.
posted by mark k at 7:37 PM on May 10, 2022
posted by mark k at 7:37 PM on May 10, 2022
Anyone saying midday is 2pm plz check in on your ESL/non-anglo friends so we can proceed to burn our English textbooks, thanks.
posted by cendawanita at 7:41 PM on May 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:41 PM on May 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
Midnight:middle of the night::Noon:midday
0:00 : 3am :: 12:00 : 2pm
The second terms are more like ranges I think:
12:00am : 12:00am–3am :: 12:00pm : 11:00am–2pm
But I agree that “midday” doesn’t mean a specific time the way “noon” does.
posted by stopgap at 7:43 PM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
0:00 : 3am :: 12:00 : 2pm
The second terms are more like ranges I think:
12:00am : 12:00am–3am :: 12:00pm : 11:00am–2pm
But I agree that “midday” doesn’t mean a specific time the way “noon” does.
posted by stopgap at 7:43 PM on May 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
w/r/t what time midday is, PBF comic is compulsory
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:44 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:44 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
progosk: the linguist interviewed describes Mandarin as having future and past on a vertical axis with respect to the speaker, above and below... what's that about, do you know?
I'm going to ask my more linguist-minded fluent friends but at the face of it, it's just the characters to represent past and future for things like last/next week are spatial characters for up and down respectively. This is different than the examples mbo gave, and I've always wondered what's the story - Japanese retained half of that but not entirely and probably due to their own cultural understanding. In any case their Chinese characters of choice are spatial terms on the horizontal plane: front/back and with a positionality understood from an English-speaker frame (it's exactly as you'd expect unlike in the mandarin one, though you can see the front character still in the mandarin for 'day before yesterday').
posted by cendawanita at 7:55 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm going to ask my more linguist-minded fluent friends but at the face of it, it's just the characters to represent past and future for things like last/next week are spatial characters for up and down respectively. This is different than the examples mbo gave, and I've always wondered what's the story - Japanese retained half of that but not entirely and probably due to their own cultural understanding. In any case their Chinese characters of choice are spatial terms on the horizontal plane: front/back and with a positionality understood from an English-speaker frame (it's exactly as you'd expect unlike in the mandarin one, though you can see the front character still in the mandarin for 'day before yesterday').
posted by cendawanita at 7:55 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I see now that I overstated.
But I maintain that colloquially, Noon is a time on the clock, and midday is more of a vibe.
This train leaves at noon vs. this fog usually clears by midday.
Lunch is the midday meal, but not necessarily served precisely at 12:01.
posted by bartleby at 8:20 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
But I maintain that colloquially, Noon is a time on the clock, and midday is more of a vibe.
This train leaves at noon vs. this fog usually clears by midday.
Lunch is the midday meal, but not necessarily served precisely at 12:01.
posted by bartleby at 8:20 PM on May 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
I disagree and the only correctish way to handle this situation is to say "Can we move the meeting to 2pm my time?" Really the correct way would be to ask to move the meeting to the appropriate zulu time (or UTC) but that feels like asking too much.
The optimal* way to handle the situation is to just move the invite in iCal -- if they're free, it'll show as a checkmark on their name. Then click save and they get a notification you moved it.
posted by pwnguin at 10:31 PM on May 10, 2022
The optimal* way to handle the situation is to just move the invite in iCal -- if they're free, it'll show as a checkmark on their name. Then click save and they get a notification you moved it.
posted by pwnguin at 10:31 PM on May 10, 2022
Mexicans have this thing where today is counted as the first day in counting days. So 'See you in eight days' (' de hoy en ocho') means that they expect to see you on the same day (say, Tuesday) next week. So, seven days from now in our non-Mexican counting system.
Also 'every third day' (in Mexican Spanish) translates as our 'every other day' for the same reason.
It is only in Mexico, as far as I know. Tell this to Spanish speakers from other countries and they will think you are crazy.
posted by vacapinta at 2:29 AM on May 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Also 'every third day' (in Mexican Spanish) translates as our 'every other day' for the same reason.
It is only in Mexico, as far as I know. Tell this to Spanish speakers from other countries and they will think you are crazy.
posted by vacapinta at 2:29 AM on May 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Midday is noon for half the year, and 1pm for the other half, assuming DST and a location roughly on the middle of a time zone.
posted by Dysk at 3:18 AM on May 11, 2022
posted by Dysk at 3:18 AM on May 11, 2022
(' de hoy en ocho') means that they expect to see you on the same day (say, Tuesday) next week.
The best folk etymology I've heard for this is that it's thinking in octaves. Eight (ocho) days.
Musical notes go A B C D E F G A.
So if it's Sunday today (A), 'en ocho' means when the scale comes back around to (A) Sunday again - the next octave.
Do it on your fingers, you'll see.
It removes ambiguity about 'do you mean in X days including today? Or starting from tomorrow?'
"I mean our current week-position, when it reoccurs in the next week-iteration".
posted by bartleby at 4:43 AM on May 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
The best folk etymology I've heard for this is that it's thinking in octaves. Eight (ocho) days.
Musical notes go A B C D E F G A.
So if it's Sunday today (A), 'en ocho' means when the scale comes back around to (A) Sunday again - the next octave.
Do it on your fingers, you'll see.
It removes ambiguity about 'do you mean in X days including today? Or starting from tomorrow?'
"I mean our current week-position, when it reoccurs in the next week-iteration".
posted by bartleby at 4:43 AM on May 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
It annoys me that 12pm follows 11am and 12am follows 11pm. That is all.
posted by Acey at 6:23 AM on May 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Acey at 6:23 AM on May 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
If you turn-up the AC, are you raising or lowering the target temperature?
You monster. My wife and I have taken to saying "Can you increase/decrease the power of the AC by X degrees" because otherwise we would still be arguing about it.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:29 AM on May 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
You monster. My wife and I have taken to saying "Can you increase/decrease the power of the AC by X degrees" because otherwise we would still be arguing about it.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:29 AM on May 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
bartleby: It probably comes from French aujourd’hui en huit (via the French invasion?) which in turn probably comes from the Roman calendar which used inclusive counting for dates.
posted by vacapinta at 10:08 AM on May 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by vacapinta at 10:08 AM on May 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Adding to the noon/midday argument...
My father-in-law used to say “mid ‘fore noon” when he meant 9:00am.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:54 PM on May 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
My father-in-law used to say “mid ‘fore noon” when he meant 9:00am.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:54 PM on May 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: They've strayed from the idiomatic track and I'm wary of a mixup.
posted by cake vandal at 8:59 AM on May 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by cake vandal at 8:59 AM on May 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
But if the "agent" is thought to be the meeting, moving forward means moving closer to you, much like if you asked a person facing you to take a step forward, in which case they step closer to you, not farther away.
This is one of the most counter-intuitive things I have ever heard. I don't believe I would ever have come up with it on my own, and it is so fascinating to me that most people see it that way (and the other similar conceptual metaphors discussed here, to make the new meeting time 10 AM). For me, if you go back in time, you travel to the past. Is the meeting going BACK in time? No? 2 PM. It's just another great reminder to be epistemologically humble, and curious about other perspectives, knowing that their underpinnings can be so incredibly different.
For me it renews a kind of radical openness and curiosity, something to have in the toolkit when we reach an impasse.
posted by cake vandal at 9:39 AM on May 12, 2022
This is one of the most counter-intuitive things I have ever heard. I don't believe I would ever have come up with it on my own, and it is so fascinating to me that most people see it that way (and the other similar conceptual metaphors discussed here, to make the new meeting time 10 AM). For me, if you go back in time, you travel to the past. Is the meeting going BACK in time? No? 2 PM. It's just another great reminder to be epistemologically humble, and curious about other perspectives, knowing that their underpinnings can be so incredibly different.
For me it renews a kind of radical openness and curiosity, something to have in the toolkit when we reach an impasse.
posted by cake vandal at 9:39 AM on May 12, 2022
My father-in-law used to say “mid ‘fore noon” when he meant 9:00am.
That's how it works in Scandinavian languages! Morning forenoon, midday, afternoon, evening, night. A lovely symmetry around midday and night which English lacks, only having morning for everything before midday.
posted by Dysk at 9:43 AM on May 12, 2022
That's how it works in Scandinavian languages! Morning forenoon, midday, afternoon, evening, night. A lovely symmetry around midday and night which English lacks, only having morning for everything before midday.
posted by Dysk at 9:43 AM on May 12, 2022
Midday is noon for half the year, and 1pm for the other half, assuming DST and a location roughly on the middle of a time zone
I mean if we define day as the time during which the sun provides light the precise middle of it changes constantly which is part of why we have fucking clocks.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:30 PM on May 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
I mean if we define day as the time during which the sun provides light the precise middle of it changes constantly which is part of why we have fucking clocks.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:30 PM on May 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Clocks are what make it confusing by having a time for midday to not quite be. Without clocks midday is always when the shadow starts getting longer again.
posted by clew at 10:06 PM on May 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 10:06 PM on May 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Nuh-uh, Noon is when the harbor master checks his astrolabe, notes the sun's transit of the local meridian, and fires a cannon.
posted by bartleby at 10:26 PM on May 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by bartleby at 10:26 PM on May 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
notes the sun's transit of the local meridian, and fires a cannon
In 1847 the Pope took this to be one of his signalling jobs, so as to synchronize Rome’s myriad clockless sagrestani; the noon-boom continues to this day, though now it’s the army lighting the daily fuse, from the Gianicolo…
posted by progosk at 4:08 AM on May 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
In 1847 the Pope took this to be one of his signalling jobs, so as to synchronize Rome’s myriad clockless sagrestani; the noon-boom continues to this day, though now it’s the army lighting the daily fuse, from the Gianicolo…
posted by progosk at 4:08 AM on May 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
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