Americans are terrible at taking vacations.
September 7, 2022 12:01 PM Subscribe
Why are U.S. workers so bad at taking time off? U.S. companies are stingy with vacation time when compared with other countries. But U.S. workers can’t seem to leave work at work anyway.
I mean… we’re talking about the country where bosses are aghast at workers simply doing their jobs, and calling it “quiet quitting”.
posted by eviemath at 12:15 PM on September 7, 2022 [132 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 12:15 PM on September 7, 2022 [132 favorites]
The academic calendar is a harsh mistress. I'm on a 12-month appointment, meaning I have no choice about teaching summer school -- I will be, zero exceptions.
That leaves me the latter halves of May, December, and August as the only times I can even think about taking connected vacation time. It's possibly no surprise that the hours are piling up in my been-here-a-long-time leave bank. I was very proud of myself that last year I only added four days to it. It's previously been more like ten.
posted by humbug at 12:30 PM on September 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
That leaves me the latter halves of May, December, and August as the only times I can even think about taking connected vacation time. It's possibly no surprise that the hours are piling up in my been-here-a-long-time leave bank. I was very proud of myself that last year I only added four days to it. It's previously been more like ten.
posted by humbug at 12:30 PM on September 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
There are stories of up to 5% of Americans have at least two jobs which can make finding time off especially unpossible.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 12:37 PM on September 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 12:37 PM on September 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
This article obliquely touches on the real reason people with available time off don't take it, or don't take all of it: the American cultural mindset punishes you for it. You will be viewed as lazy or "not a team player" if you take even what little vacation your employment contract guarantees you.
People don't want to lose their jobs, or get passed over for raises and promotions, so they "choose" not to take vacations. It's that simple.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:41 PM on September 7, 2022 [46 favorites]
People don't want to lose their jobs, or get passed over for raises and promotions, so they "choose" not to take vacations. It's that simple.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:41 PM on September 7, 2022 [46 favorites]
I work in the Swedish office of a company with offices in Europe and the US. Anecdotally, the US teams come across as workaholics who do long hours, take very little leave and are loath to be unreachable by work. I imagine that, from the other side, the EU offices come across as a bunch of coddled layabouts or something (especially with the common habit in Sweden of taking a whole month off in the summer).
posted by acb at 12:46 PM on September 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by acb at 12:46 PM on September 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
At least half the problem with this article is the headline, but in general, I find the "employees are bad at this" framing to be extremely ... what's the word I am looking for? ... stupid? ... backwards? begging the question?
It does get a little bit into "and it isn't all their fault" but, like, it isn't any their fault. I know a very small number of people who prefer not to take vacation because they rely very heavily on regularity and scheduling in order to feel like they have their shit together, but with those relatively rare exceptions, the things keeping people from taking vacation are systemic. Even people who love their jobs would take more vacation if they could just take vacation, without the pressure that they were going to come back to even more work or that they were letting the team down or that it would cost them against their billable hours targets.
Even in Canada, where we have paid vacation, it really only applies the way it is supposed to to people on salary or very set schedules. If you work an hourly, variable schedule, you probably get your vacation pay added to every cheque, so it becomes part of your budget, so when it is time to take a day off for vacation, it looks exactly like an unpaid day.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:46 PM on September 7, 2022 [26 favorites]
It does get a little bit into "and it isn't all their fault" but, like, it isn't any their fault. I know a very small number of people who prefer not to take vacation because they rely very heavily on regularity and scheduling in order to feel like they have their shit together, but with those relatively rare exceptions, the things keeping people from taking vacation are systemic. Even people who love their jobs would take more vacation if they could just take vacation, without the pressure that they were going to come back to even more work or that they were letting the team down or that it would cost them against their billable hours targets.
Even in Canada, where we have paid vacation, it really only applies the way it is supposed to to people on salary or very set schedules. If you work an hourly, variable schedule, you probably get your vacation pay added to every cheque, so it becomes part of your budget, so when it is time to take a day off for vacation, it looks exactly like an unpaid day.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:46 PM on September 7, 2022 [26 favorites]
(Not an American. I live in New Zealand.)
I am amazed that there is no mention of health insurance, at-will employment and the general poor state of worker protection in employment laws. It seems to me, reading Reddit and Metafilter and other places where Americans discuss their jobs, that many workers are plain scared of losing their jobs at the whim of their employer, in a way that people are not in other first world countries. Which makes them reluctant to use time off they are entitled to: who would be labelled a slacker in that environment?
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:47 PM on September 7, 2022 [68 favorites]
I am amazed that there is no mention of health insurance, at-will employment and the general poor state of worker protection in employment laws. It seems to me, reading Reddit and Metafilter and other places where Americans discuss their jobs, that many workers are plain scared of losing their jobs at the whim of their employer, in a way that people are not in other first world countries. Which makes them reluctant to use time off they are entitled to: who would be labelled a slacker in that environment?
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:47 PM on September 7, 2022 [68 favorites]
I took a PTO day yesterday for a not-fun obligation and I spent the entire day:
a) anxious that I was going to get in trouble for missing something, and
b) anxious that the executives would think that me not being around was not a big deal and I could be let go.
Neither of those two are sensible, rational thoughts considering the environment at my specific place of work, but I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one who gets tied up in those two thoughts.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 12:51 PM on September 7, 2022 [27 favorites]
a) anxious that I was going to get in trouble for missing something, and
b) anxious that the executives would think that me not being around was not a big deal and I could be let go.
Neither of those two are sensible, rational thoughts considering the environment at my specific place of work, but I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one who gets tied up in those two thoughts.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 12:51 PM on September 7, 2022 [27 favorites]
anyone working for a company that switches to 'untracked vacation time' has probably seen over time just how much the policy works to the advantage of the company, not the employee ....
first, deadlines often don't allow for one to take a whole lot of time off without falling far behind
second, as a result of this, those with a deficit of time off trying to just remain employed and meet their deadlines don't get anything to carry over into subsequent years, since nothing is tracked (including time owed)
third, in a kind of perverse way, this tends to punish those who might be more conscientious (or paranoid), since the basic idea (however intended) seems to be keep requesting and should you *actually* go above what is fair or expected, someone will (somehow?) inform you of this bad judgment
as far as my own experience, I've seen that leaving this judgment to the discretion of individual managers plays out in just the way you might expect ...some employees seem to take quite a lot of time off year after year, while others go with almost no time off .. it's pretty evident that having allocated time that increases with seniority, while imperfect, was at least a fair enough system that followed consistent rules
HR brags that they "trust managers and employees to handle this like adults" but I think if there's one thing we've learned in recent decades, the good and fair judgment of adults is far from a given in this world
posted by clandestiny's child at 12:52 PM on September 7, 2022 [12 favorites]
first, deadlines often don't allow for one to take a whole lot of time off without falling far behind
second, as a result of this, those with a deficit of time off trying to just remain employed and meet their deadlines don't get anything to carry over into subsequent years, since nothing is tracked (including time owed)
third, in a kind of perverse way, this tends to punish those who might be more conscientious (or paranoid), since the basic idea (however intended) seems to be keep requesting and should you *actually* go above what is fair or expected, someone will (somehow?) inform you of this bad judgment
as far as my own experience, I've seen that leaving this judgment to the discretion of individual managers plays out in just the way you might expect ...some employees seem to take quite a lot of time off year after year, while others go with almost no time off .. it's pretty evident that having allocated time that increases with seniority, while imperfect, was at least a fair enough system that followed consistent rules
HR brags that they "trust managers and employees to handle this like adults" but I think if there's one thing we've learned in recent decades, the good and fair judgment of adults is far from a given in this world
posted by clandestiny's child at 12:52 PM on September 7, 2022 [12 favorites]
Half the problem with our culture is our word. What is this, this "vacation"? It's defined by negation, absentee, no-show, emptiness etc. Vacant, Vacuous, Vapid. The very roots are not positive.
All the brits and ozzies I know go on a damn holiday! It's supposed to be fun, right? It's when I go camp or whatever, not the time that I'm not doing my job.
posted by SaltySalticid at 12:54 PM on September 7, 2022 [38 favorites]
All the brits and ozzies I know go on a damn holiday! It's supposed to be fun, right? It's when I go camp or whatever, not the time that I'm not doing my job.
posted by SaltySalticid at 12:54 PM on September 7, 2022 [38 favorites]
People don't want to lose their jobs, or get passed over for raises and promotions, so they "choose" not to take vacations. It's that simple.
many workers are plain scared of losing their jobs at the whim of their employer, in a way that people are not in other first world countries
Literally every time I tell my mother I'm taking a vacation (or even a single day off!) she tells me she worries that I'll lose my job.
My company has historically been loosey-goosey about tracking and carrying over PTO (this might just be a my-department thing), but we've been told in no uncertain terms that we can only carry over 19 days into next year, and through lack of use in the last however-many years, I figure I need to use about another week this year just to get down to 19 by the end of the year. And you better believe I will take those days.
Have you seen how expensive hotel rates are anywhere?
Airfare is through the roof, too. We just took a trip to the west coast to visit family and relax a little and spent about 30% more on airfare, and probably 75%-100% more on hotels than we did at the same time 3 years ago. And we're looking into a vacation for February that will cost even more. It's sort of bananas.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:57 PM on September 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
many workers are plain scared of losing their jobs at the whim of their employer, in a way that people are not in other first world countries
Literally every time I tell my mother I'm taking a vacation (or even a single day off!) she tells me she worries that I'll lose my job.
My company has historically been loosey-goosey about tracking and carrying over PTO (this might just be a my-department thing), but we've been told in no uncertain terms that we can only carry over 19 days into next year, and through lack of use in the last however-many years, I figure I need to use about another week this year just to get down to 19 by the end of the year. And you better believe I will take those days.
Have you seen how expensive hotel rates are anywhere?
Airfare is through the roof, too. We just took a trip to the west coast to visit family and relax a little and spent about 30% more on airfare, and probably 75%-100% more on hotels than we did at the same time 3 years ago. And we're looking into a vacation for February that will cost even more. It's sort of bananas.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:57 PM on September 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
There's plenty of variation within countries, but clearly there is a difference between typical experience. Which is why this tweet is funny:
European out-of-offices: “I’m away camping for the summer. Email again in September”
American out-of-offices: “I have left the office for two hours to undergo kidney surgery but you can reach me on my cell anytime”
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:58 PM on September 7, 2022 [54 favorites]
European out-of-offices: “I’m away camping for the summer. Email again in September”
American out-of-offices: “I have left the office for two hours to undergo kidney surgery but you can reach me on my cell anytime”
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:58 PM on September 7, 2022 [54 favorites]
This is a country where management is losing their minds over remote work, let alone allowing for actual time off.
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:04 PM on September 7, 2022 [27 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:04 PM on September 7, 2022 [27 favorites]
Yeah, after reading that great analysis of employee tracking software from the NYT and seeing how employees are being shafted for daring to take a fucking pee break, it is a little odd to wonder how it could possibly be that Americans don’t take vacation time! My work is generally good about PTO and my boss grants it pretty much whenever I ask, but every time the process makes me nervous as if I’m asking for special consideration. But it’s not, it’s literally part of my compensation package!
I wish we could institute some laws around this but the business world would literally explode at the thought of allowing “vital” employees to take time away from work and actually BE away, not constantly checking email.
posted by dellsolace at 1:09 PM on September 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
I wish we could institute some laws around this but the business world would literally explode at the thought of allowing “vital” employees to take time away from work and actually BE away, not constantly checking email.
posted by dellsolace at 1:09 PM on September 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
I'm the odd duck here - I do NOT like taking "vacation" - apparently I am in a small group of people that utterly loves his job.
posted by davidmsc at 1:13 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by davidmsc at 1:13 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Canadian living in the US here. My work background in Canada was the please-god-take-your-vacation-and-here's-another-week-because-we-can't-afford-to-give-you-a-raise world of non-profit arts organizations. I work for a very large non-profit hospital in the US, and their PTO policies are very generous for a right-to-work state and would be completely unremarkable in a Canadian context. My boss is adamant that I take my PTO. I generally take two one-week vacations and then a bunch of individual days. I always take all of my time except for what they will allow me to rollover into my grandfathered sick leave bank.
Despite the comparatively generous policies of my employer, most of my co-workers still don't take all of their PTO. I think that they have been kind of low-level traumatized by other employers and so they don't trust that it's really no-fooling okay to take their PTO. The whole culture is sick.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:15 PM on September 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
Despite the comparatively generous policies of my employer, most of my co-workers still don't take all of their PTO. I think that they have been kind of low-level traumatized by other employers and so they don't trust that it's really no-fooling okay to take their PTO. The whole culture is sick.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:15 PM on September 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's a definite weird thing, but I can't ever catch much time to take off with how things are structured.
But... the funny thing is my company loses me for a terrifying amount of the first 3 months of the year. We have a use it or lose it policy for vacation which means most of the company is gone for nearly the whole of December, but since I'm in California, I get until March to use it.
So I keep working lightly during the holidays, wait for everyone to get back and then move on.
But taking a European style holiday? Multiple weeks? Hasn't ever happened in my life.
posted by drewbage1847 at 1:15 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
But... the funny thing is my company loses me for a terrifying amount of the first 3 months of the year. We have a use it or lose it policy for vacation which means most of the company is gone for nearly the whole of December, but since I'm in California, I get until March to use it.
So I keep working lightly during the holidays, wait for everyone to get back and then move on.
But taking a European style holiday? Multiple weeks? Hasn't ever happened in my life.
posted by drewbage1847 at 1:15 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Even people who love their jobs would take more vacation if they could just take vacation, without the pressure that they were going to come back to even more work or that they were letting the team down or that it would cost them against their billable hours targets.
This is my partner; the dude could use a real vacation.
I have never had paid vacation options in my life; I have always been an hourly work, never salaried, so I live with knowing that if I want to take time off, I will have to go out without that cheque because my office sure isn't going to suggest I take time off.
posted by Kitteh at 1:20 PM on September 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
This is my partner; the dude could use a real vacation.
I have never had paid vacation options in my life; I have always been an hourly work, never salaried, so I live with knowing that if I want to take time off, I will have to go out without that cheque because my office sure isn't going to suggest I take time off.
posted by Kitteh at 1:20 PM on September 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
I feel so anxious about the work I'll have to deal with when I get back and so depressed the day before I go back that it really doesn't make sense to take more than a half day here and there, or maybe a day when someone visits. It's not very fun to take vacation. I did enjoy Saturday last week knowing that I had Monday off, but really didn't enjoy Monday very much because I was so anxious about the week.
I mean, a feature here is the US businesses consider it vital to run everyone at 100% all day every day, so no one is there to pick up your slack and when you get back you just have 200% of your workload, half of it overdue.
I am supposed to get a quite good amount of vacation, but I have maxed out what I can accrue so I've been just straight up losing vacation all summer. I'll get about three days off over and above Christmas and Christmas Eve (have to work a little every day so it's not full days off) between Christmas and New Year's and that will run it down a little, but by March I'll be back to losing every day I accrue.
posted by Frowner at 1:21 PM on September 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
I mean, a feature here is the US businesses consider it vital to run everyone at 100% all day every day, so no one is there to pick up your slack and when you get back you just have 200% of your workload, half of it overdue.
I am supposed to get a quite good amount of vacation, but I have maxed out what I can accrue so I've been just straight up losing vacation all summer. I'll get about three days off over and above Christmas and Christmas Eve (have to work a little every day so it's not full days off) between Christmas and New Year's and that will run it down a little, but by March I'll be back to losing every day I accrue.
posted by Frowner at 1:21 PM on September 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
Counterpoint: unemployment in the US is at very low levels. In theory, this means fears of losing your job are lessened. But unlike every other developed country, employment is tied to health [insurance], so that's the unique factor.
We have a use it or lose it policy for vacation which means most of the company is gone for nearly the whole of December, but since I'm in California, I get until March to use it.
I'm under the impression that in California, you're not allowed to "lose" any accrued vacation time. It's counted as wages. It can be capped though. And there's certainly all kinds of weird ways to structure it.
posted by meowzilla at 1:21 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
We have a use it or lose it policy for vacation which means most of the company is gone for nearly the whole of December, but since I'm in California, I get until March to use it.
I'm under the impression that in California, you're not allowed to "lose" any accrued vacation time. It's counted as wages. It can be capped though. And there's certainly all kinds of weird ways to structure it.
posted by meowzilla at 1:21 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm fortunate in that I have a reasonable amount of vacation (three+ weeks in addition to federal holidays), which I do take. But.
No team I've been on in more than a decade has been staffed to handle people being out without the duties falling on people who don't normally do those things. So - time off means working harder before and after PTO to try to keep the wheels on the bus.
The exception was, at my previous employer, we had a "shutdown" at the end of the year and almost everybody was off. There was no expectation that anything was getting done, and being out didn't mean coming back to a slew of emails from cow-orkers who were trying to function without you.
Sadly, new employer doesn't have that. No matter what, though, if I'm entitled to vacation I take it.
posted by jzb at 1:26 PM on September 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
No team I've been on in more than a decade has been staffed to handle people being out without the duties falling on people who don't normally do those things. So - time off means working harder before and after PTO to try to keep the wheels on the bus.
The exception was, at my previous employer, we had a "shutdown" at the end of the year and almost everybody was off. There was no expectation that anything was getting done, and being out didn't mean coming back to a slew of emails from cow-orkers who were trying to function without you.
Sadly, new employer doesn't have that. No matter what, though, if I'm entitled to vacation I take it.
posted by jzb at 1:26 PM on September 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
My school district used to pay off unused days at retirement. Now they don't because they realize it's cheaper to pay a substitute when a teacher gets to their last year and has to figure out how to burn 70 days of accrued leave in a 190 day school calendar.
I decided to burn more slowly. With added leave every year, I plan to take off three full weeks a year from now until retirement.
posted by parliboy at 1:29 PM on September 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
I decided to burn more slowly. With added leave every year, I plan to take off three full weeks a year from now until retirement.
posted by parliboy at 1:29 PM on September 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
My company has a “vacation days don’t accrue, you can take off as much time as you want, just work it out with your manager” policy. Which, given the near constant hiring freezes & and resultant complete lack of depth of bench, means: sure, you can take time off, but when you get back there will be a royal fuck-ton of ADDITIONAL work, waiting for you.
Hence… less taken taken off.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 1:32 PM on September 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
Hence… less taken taken off.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 1:32 PM on September 7, 2022 [13 favorites]
I've heard that people who work in banks are required to take a two-week vacation every year, with zero remote connectivity allowed, specifically because someone else has to cover their responsibilities and if the person on vacation was conducting illegal/improper business, it has a higher chance of discovery in these two weeks.
I don't work in a bank but I think it's a great policy for companies in general. Not specifically to discover misconduct, but to find out who has unknown responsibilities that would collapse the company in case that employee got hit by a bus (or won the lottery).
posted by meowzilla at 1:44 PM on September 7, 2022 [37 favorites]
I don't work in a bank but I think it's a great policy for companies in general. Not specifically to discover misconduct, but to find out who has unknown responsibilities that would collapse the company in case that employee got hit by a bus (or won the lottery).
posted by meowzilla at 1:44 PM on September 7, 2022 [37 favorites]
My previous employer would pretend that vacations are okay but then cancel them because of "emergencies"... but I'm not going to dwell on that and get bitter all over again.
My current employer is pretty good in this regard -- but my spouse's employers were not (until this year when she simply quit). And even now, any sort of travel means finding a house sitter for the dogs or kenneling them on top of other expenses. And after the last trip we took by air we vowed not to fly anywhere unless we absolutely had to, and covid hasn't made that any more appealing. So we just don't travel much.
Sometimes I just take the occasional day or week off to celebrate laziness. We do manage to travel to visit family once or twice a year usually, but those trips are a week long at most.
posted by Foosnark at 1:44 PM on September 7, 2022
My current employer is pretty good in this regard -- but my spouse's employers were not (until this year when she simply quit). And even now, any sort of travel means finding a house sitter for the dogs or kenneling them on top of other expenses. And after the last trip we took by air we vowed not to fly anywhere unless we absolutely had to, and covid hasn't made that any more appealing. So we just don't travel much.
Sometimes I just take the occasional day or week off to celebrate laziness. We do manage to travel to visit family once or twice a year usually, but those trips are a week long at most.
posted by Foosnark at 1:44 PM on September 7, 2022
Another benefit to companies using the untracked vacation time is that, as least in California, in most cases when you leave a job they are required to pay out any unused vacation time. Obviously if your vacation policy has no accrual, then people leaving or being let go benefits the company (and gives the employees the short end of the stick.)
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 1:45 PM on September 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 1:45 PM on September 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
In August I took my first big vacation in 4 years. Not exactly for lack of trying but with Covid meaning I couldn't go anywhere there was less of a push to actually take the time off. I was still reading my emails almost every day but there were only a handful that I actually had to respond to - my email out-of-office said that I was out of the office, when I was returning, and who to contact in my absence. I'd love to be able to take a couple of weeks off without having to check my email at all but I'm the boss so I do need to be reachable.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:48 PM on September 7, 2022
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:48 PM on September 7, 2022
Hopefully I don't need to be harangued for a citation on this, but another issue with people having multiple jobs is that those jobs are part-time and often scheduled a week or two beforehand, which makes it incredibly difficult to coordinate time off.
In my own environment, I'm fortunate enough to have full-time work and paid leave. But as a sign of how bad the system is, one's leave can accrue to the point that you are able to offer it to people who are sick and have to use all their paid leave to cover an extended absence, so that they don't need to take unpaid FMLA leave and can continue to collect a salary while away. We have work insurance (think AFLAC), but in reality some loophole is found and it never pays out.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:55 PM on September 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
In my own environment, I'm fortunate enough to have full-time work and paid leave. But as a sign of how bad the system is, one's leave can accrue to the point that you are able to offer it to people who are sick and have to use all their paid leave to cover an extended absence, so that they don't need to take unpaid FMLA leave and can continue to collect a salary while away. We have work insurance (think AFLAC), but in reality some loophole is found and it never pays out.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:55 PM on September 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
i realized today that I had 21 days of PTO I needed to get in by the end of the year. I had grand plans back in January to schedule a summer break, and maybe something in the fall. My company encourages taking PTO and even provides 5 extra days for volunteering so as not to use up PTO allotment. I actually used all 5 volunteer days, but never got around to getting that vacation time worked out. Now I'm working to fit time off around the winter holidays and deciding which Fridays to turn into three-day weekends.
It's nice to have so much PTO to use, I need to be better about getting things scheduled sooner.
posted by jazon at 2:12 PM on September 7, 2022
It's nice to have so much PTO to use, I need to be better about getting things scheduled sooner.
posted by jazon at 2:12 PM on September 7, 2022
Ms Vegetable keeps pointing me to clinical anesthesia jobs with 10+ weeks annual PTO, like this one. I am pained by the fact that I haven't chosen to take them.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 2:22 PM on September 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by a robot made out of meat at 2:22 PM on September 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I took a PTO day yesterday...
And there, in those few words, lies one of the biggest reasons American workers don’t take time off...the concept of PTO days. In the not entirely distant past (i.e. within my lifetime) vacation time was separate from things like time-off for sickness or something that is an unavoidable need for time from work.
At some point in, I believe, the 80s, some business think-tank or some-such came up with the idea of melding the two together. Thus was born the PTO day. The worker wouldn’t get any extra days-off added to their already-paltry two weeks vacation time. But now they’d have to budget the possibility of themselves or their kid getting sick into those days. The end result is workers not taking their allotted time-off for fear of running-out of days and a kid getting sick.
For our foreign viewers, if an American worker runs out of PTO days, they can usually/hopefully get extra days, but they will be deducted from their pay.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:34 PM on September 7, 2022 [28 favorites]
And there, in those few words, lies one of the biggest reasons American workers don’t take time off...the concept of PTO days. In the not entirely distant past (i.e. within my lifetime) vacation time was separate from things like time-off for sickness or something that is an unavoidable need for time from work.
At some point in, I believe, the 80s, some business think-tank or some-such came up with the idea of melding the two together. Thus was born the PTO day. The worker wouldn’t get any extra days-off added to their already-paltry two weeks vacation time. But now they’d have to budget the possibility of themselves or their kid getting sick into those days. The end result is workers not taking their allotted time-off for fear of running-out of days and a kid getting sick.
For our foreign viewers, if an American worker runs out of PTO days, they can usually/hopefully get extra days, but they will be deducted from their pay.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:34 PM on September 7, 2022 [28 favorites]
My boss(-slash-workspouse) recently took an entire week off (actually 11 days off thanks to Labor Day), their first since the big promotion a few years back. I had taken two full weeks off just prior to that. Several of the rest of my team took time during August as well, because we knew things would be pretty slow, and of course we kept everyone up and down the ladder apprised, and rigorously cross-trained so our various absences would be imperceptible to the other people we support.
And this morning, I had to talk my boss (/ws) off a ledge when they were putting together the August report to the executive team, because all of our metrics were pathetic compared to where they usually (always) are. Not that we'd missed anything, but just because we'd collectively spent like a third of the month out of the office and made sure that we didn't get too much stuff stacked on our coworkers around those times either. I believe that "Well, much of my team was off, and we made sure the rest of the team didn't get swamped" will serve to explain away our "bad" numbers, but honestly, we're kinda on tenterhooks about it. Because that's just how things are these days, even at good companies.
posted by Etrigan at 2:41 PM on September 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
And this morning, I had to talk my boss (/ws) off a ledge when they were putting together the August report to the executive team, because all of our metrics were pathetic compared to where they usually (always) are. Not that we'd missed anything, but just because we'd collectively spent like a third of the month out of the office and made sure that we didn't get too much stuff stacked on our coworkers around those times either. I believe that "Well, much of my team was off, and we made sure the rest of the team didn't get swamped" will serve to explain away our "bad" numbers, but honestly, we're kinda on tenterhooks about it. Because that's just how things are these days, even at good companies.
posted by Etrigan at 2:41 PM on September 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
I know a very small number of people who prefer not to take vacation because they rely very heavily on regularity and scheduling in order to feel like they have their shit together, but with those relatively rare exceptions
Oh thank god someone mentioned us. I have ADHD, my job is pretty easy and I get into a rhythm and know what's going on and just do it when I have to. Stepping away is more work.
Plus I don't really travel because of complicated anxiety not made better by the pandemic and personal events.
Lots of people do take all their days it seems at my job. They seem more stressed out than I am in general though anyway.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 2:42 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Oh thank god someone mentioned us. I have ADHD, my job is pretty easy and I get into a rhythm and know what's going on and just do it when I have to. Stepping away is more work.
Plus I don't really travel because of complicated anxiety not made better by the pandemic and personal events.
Lots of people do take all their days it seems at my job. They seem more stressed out than I am in general though anyway.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 2:42 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
if an American worker runs out of PTO days, they can usually/hopefully get extra days, but they will be deducted from their pay
Or they have to resort to a GoFundMe type email begging their colleagues to donate PTO so they don't get fired. I trained at a place where there would periodically be all-staff emails like "Jane in Marketing was just diagnosed with breast cancer, please donate PTO so she can go to chemotherapy." One of many reasons I don't work there any more.
I am personally very aggressive about no emails on vacation. I don't even have work email on my personal devices. But it does mean that I have to spend most of the first day back dealing with emails and other non-urgent requests (we have a backup/cross-cover system for urgent issues). I took 3 days off this summer, my first time away since March 2020, and had over 500 emails when I returned. Mostly listserv or getting cc'ed as an FYI, but there were a good 150-200 that required a response from me.
posted by basalganglia at 3:06 PM on September 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
Or they have to resort to a GoFundMe type email begging their colleagues to donate PTO so they don't get fired. I trained at a place where there would periodically be all-staff emails like "Jane in Marketing was just diagnosed with breast cancer, please donate PTO so she can go to chemotherapy." One of many reasons I don't work there any more.
I am personally very aggressive about no emails on vacation. I don't even have work email on my personal devices. But it does mean that I have to spend most of the first day back dealing with emails and other non-urgent requests (we have a backup/cross-cover system for urgent issues). I took 3 days off this summer, my first time away since March 2020, and had over 500 emails when I returned. Mostly listserv or getting cc'ed as an FYI, but there were a good 150-200 that required a response from me.
posted by basalganglia at 3:06 PM on September 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
Or they have to resort to a GoFundMe type email begging their colleagues to donate PTO so they don't get fired.
I’m shocked donating PTO was allowed. It’s definitely not common.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:30 PM on September 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
I’m shocked donating PTO was allowed. It’s definitely not common.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:30 PM on September 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
FREELANCER: what is this...paid time off thing to which you refer?
posted by gottabefunky at 3:30 PM on September 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 3:30 PM on September 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
clinical anesthesia jobs with 10+ weeks annual PTO
Well the salary is 520K so the PTO is more like the icing on the cake and not a significant structural component.
posted by meowzilla at 3:38 PM on September 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Well the salary is 520K so the PTO is more like the icing on the cake and not a significant structural component.
posted by meowzilla at 3:38 PM on September 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
sure, you can take time off, but when you get back there will be a royal fuck-ton of ADDITIONAL work, waiting for you.
Yeah, that's why I gave up. I last took a week off that wasn't in late December circa...2019, I think. Admittedly, I have lost all desire to go far away from home in case I get covid there for weeks and that ain't worth it, nor can I pay thousands for a hotel room and room service if/when I do, but even BEFORE that, it was a pain in the ass to go. I technically have presumably at least one teammate or two as backup* and back in the past, I used to have little or no work coming in the last two weeks of December because most people are off and/or offices are closed, so I use my vacation time then. Unfortunately even NOW I still end up with a pile of workload that nobody else touched that piles up by January 2, but that's only about a week's worth to make up. If I go away at literally any other time of the year, I have too much to do. I can only barely stay on top of things if I'm there every day as is, and for every full day I'm out, it's 2 days of makeup. One week of vacation and sun and fun = two weeks of even harder workload.
* note: my office is a revolving door and I already lost my last two teammates this year and we're hiring once again. New teammates usually don't have the vacation time to be gone even though we semi-officially close for a few days.
So basically, if I go on vacation I just made my life harder and my workload worse. And I'm a peon, I'm not even anyone important! And it's not like I come back relaxed and rejuvenated either--I feel like I never left within an hour of starting the workday. I save my vacation time (I'm in CA) as "severance" money for my inevitable canning from the job. I finally hit my vacation limit in 2021 and had to burn some random days here and there, and I'm going to be back at that point again by end of December. I asked for 10 days off but was only allowed 9, so...
Vacation isn't easy to take, and if it just makes your life harder, why try to vacate?
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:48 PM on September 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, that's why I gave up. I last took a week off that wasn't in late December circa...2019, I think. Admittedly, I have lost all desire to go far away from home in case I get covid there for weeks and that ain't worth it, nor can I pay thousands for a hotel room and room service if/when I do, but even BEFORE that, it was a pain in the ass to go. I technically have presumably at least one teammate or two as backup* and back in the past, I used to have little or no work coming in the last two weeks of December because most people are off and/or offices are closed, so I use my vacation time then. Unfortunately even NOW I still end up with a pile of workload that nobody else touched that piles up by January 2, but that's only about a week's worth to make up. If I go away at literally any other time of the year, I have too much to do. I can only barely stay on top of things if I'm there every day as is, and for every full day I'm out, it's 2 days of makeup. One week of vacation and sun and fun = two weeks of even harder workload.
* note: my office is a revolving door and I already lost my last two teammates this year and we're hiring once again. New teammates usually don't have the vacation time to be gone even though we semi-officially close for a few days.
So basically, if I go on vacation I just made my life harder and my workload worse. And I'm a peon, I'm not even anyone important! And it's not like I come back relaxed and rejuvenated either--I feel like I never left within an hour of starting the workday. I save my vacation time (I'm in CA) as "severance" money for my inevitable canning from the job. I finally hit my vacation limit in 2021 and had to burn some random days here and there, and I'm going to be back at that point again by end of December. I asked for 10 days off but was only allowed 9, so...
Vacation isn't easy to take, and if it just makes your life harder, why try to vacate?
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:48 PM on September 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
One highly-dysfunctional company, where I worked for seven years, allowed people to sell their PTO back to the company.
Obviously, it had some unhealthy (but probably not unintended) consequences, but it sure was a relief when you couldn’t afford to go anywhere on vacation and you had deadlines and bills piling up.
I sometimes wish my current employer would allow for this particular handshake with the devil.
posted by armeowda at 3:56 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Obviously, it had some unhealthy (but probably not unintended) consequences, but it sure was a relief when you couldn’t afford to go anywhere on vacation and you had deadlines and bills piling up.
I sometimes wish my current employer would allow for this particular handshake with the devil.
posted by armeowda at 3:56 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
This entire thread is why self-employment/freelancing/whatever always (sadly) comes out ahead when I'm doing a pro/cons analysis. I get that its not a possibility or desirable for everybody, but "being allowed" to take time off when I need/want it is just not something I can compute, especially considering the psychological/emotional abuse involved in actually taking off the paid time off you've earned. Like, I've earned this time, how can you cajole me from taking it? It's like if a company browbeat you for cashing your weekly paycheck - get the fuck out of here!
On preview, "I save my vacation time (I'm in CA) as "severance" money for my inevitable canning from the job." Yes. I've taken exactly this stance in the past myself.
posted by flamk at 3:58 PM on September 7, 2022
On preview, "I save my vacation time (I'm in CA) as "severance" money for my inevitable canning from the job." Yes. I've taken exactly this stance in the past myself.
posted by flamk at 3:58 PM on September 7, 2022
What the hell use if half a million salary if you don't get time to spend it.
One of the good things about trade work (at least the heavy remote construction that I do); at least at the tool level; is so many of these issues just can't be a problem. We don't have email so our inboxes don't get backed up. Even if we did it's hard to turn a wrench with a mouse. People are working schedules like two weeks on and a week off so people are used to not being able to get ahold of someone. We get six weeks of paid vacation (paid on every check). When you do take vacation you are usually expected to take full weeks at a time because of fixed travel days.
I've said it before but if my company contacts me on my time off it is because something is literally on fire and they've already called in everyone on shift to deal with it.
I am so glad to be in the privileged position where any lack of coverage for any event is just not my problem.
anyone working for a company that switches to 'untracked vacation time' has probably seen over time just how much the policy works to the advantage of the company, not the employee ....
The only way to handle this as an employee is to book vacation 6-12 months out and buy a non-refundable ticket (bus tickets to the next town over can be non-refundable; you don't actually have to go). Not going to work for every employer/employee but it is going to nail the days down when it is possible.
Have you seen how expensive hotel rates are anywhere?
You don't have to actually go anywhere on vacation; the key thing is too get away from work. But there are ways to handle this to in a sane system. EG: Some countries not only require paid time off they also give you extra money to spend on vacation.
Even in Canada, where we have paid vacation, it really only applies the way it is supposed to to people on salary or very set schedules. If you work an hourly, variable schedule, you probably get your vacation pay added to every cheque, so it becomes part of your budget, so when it is time to take a day off for vacation, it looks exactly like an unpaid day.
I hate that the Employment Insurance system is set up with this perverse incentive where employees want to get paid out for vacation on every cheque because if you get paid out for a couple weeks vacation when you get laid off EI deducts that amount from your first couple of cheques.
Also for those on the margins not taking vacation is a way to give yourself a 4% annual raise via increased hours worked.
posted by Mitheral at 4:04 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
One of the good things about trade work (at least the heavy remote construction that I do); at least at the tool level; is so many of these issues just can't be a problem. We don't have email so our inboxes don't get backed up. Even if we did it's hard to turn a wrench with a mouse. People are working schedules like two weeks on and a week off so people are used to not being able to get ahold of someone. We get six weeks of paid vacation (paid on every check). When you do take vacation you are usually expected to take full weeks at a time because of fixed travel days.
I've said it before but if my company contacts me on my time off it is because something is literally on fire and they've already called in everyone on shift to deal with it.
I am so glad to be in the privileged position where any lack of coverage for any event is just not my problem.
anyone working for a company that switches to 'untracked vacation time' has probably seen over time just how much the policy works to the advantage of the company, not the employee ....
The only way to handle this as an employee is to book vacation 6-12 months out and buy a non-refundable ticket (bus tickets to the next town over can be non-refundable; you don't actually have to go). Not going to work for every employer/employee but it is going to nail the days down when it is possible.
Have you seen how expensive hotel rates are anywhere?
You don't have to actually go anywhere on vacation; the key thing is too get away from work. But there are ways to handle this to in a sane system. EG: Some countries not only require paid time off they also give you extra money to spend on vacation.
Even in Canada, where we have paid vacation, it really only applies the way it is supposed to to people on salary or very set schedules. If you work an hourly, variable schedule, you probably get your vacation pay added to every cheque, so it becomes part of your budget, so when it is time to take a day off for vacation, it looks exactly like an unpaid day.
I hate that the Employment Insurance system is set up with this perverse incentive where employees want to get paid out for vacation on every cheque because if you get paid out for a couple weeks vacation when you get laid off EI deducts that amount from your first couple of cheques.
Also for those on the margins not taking vacation is a way to give yourself a 4% annual raise via increased hours worked.
posted by Mitheral at 4:04 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Vacation isn't easy to take, and if it just makes your life harder, why try to vacate?
I often find that once you take the vacation you realise knackered you are, how your attitude to work has become less positive, etc. It's possible to come back refreshed and with new perspective. There are benefits to getting away as well as disbenefits.
posted by biffa at 4:06 PM on September 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
I often find that once you take the vacation you realise knackered you are, how your attitude to work has become less positive, etc. It's possible to come back refreshed and with new perspective. There are benefits to getting away as well as disbenefits.
posted by biffa at 4:06 PM on September 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Americans have been (blessed/cursed-take your pick) with the Puritan ethos. Work in itself is good and must be done as much as possible. Play in itself is bad and must be avoided at all costs.
posted by Stuka at 4:09 PM on September 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Stuka at 4:09 PM on September 7, 2022 [9 favorites]
Some of the, ah, more front line kinda jobs are using a three tier system now... Vacation, PTO, and unpaid time off
posted by Jacen at 4:23 PM on September 7, 2022
posted by Jacen at 4:23 PM on September 7, 2022
I've earned this time, how can you cajole me from taking it?
Only in 8 states, I believe. The remainder it's at the company's discretion.
posted by CrystalDave at 4:25 PM on September 7, 2022
Only in 8 states, I believe. The remainder it's at the company's discretion.
posted by CrystalDave at 4:25 PM on September 7, 2022
What is this paid vacation time you talk of? PTO? Sick leave? I don't get any. I don't go to work, I don't get paid. I'm having surgery in a few weeks and sure as hell hope they can do it laparoscopically because if not, I'll be out longer. I love my job, but there are days I want to tell the whole world to fuck off.
posted by kathrynm at 4:33 PM on September 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by kathrynm at 4:33 PM on September 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm a freelance artist. I barely make enough to pay my bills most months. What's this "vacation" you speak of?
I recently landed a corporate gig that's looking likely to have a nice payout for once. After I kill some debt and buy some furniture for my too-empty apartment maybe I'll actually take a fucking break for the first time since I was a kid getting summer vacation back in the early eighties.
posted by egypturnash at 4:33 PM on September 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
I recently landed a corporate gig that's looking likely to have a nice payout for once. After I kill some debt and buy some furniture for my too-empty apartment maybe I'll actually take a fucking break for the first time since I was a kid getting summer vacation back in the early eighties.
posted by egypturnash at 4:33 PM on September 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
We had a tangent along these lines in the Fallout 76 human cost thread. My response about whether the abuses of the games industry are worth putting up with is here, but to recap:
IF we lived in a sane society with universal basic income, universal healthcare, free college and Internet access as a fundamental human right… it’s not just that I would do the job for free. Truth is I would crawl on broken glass to experience anything half as creatively or intellectually validating and fulfilling as my job is every fucking day. My co-workers are universally wonderful & progressive people with exceptional artistic or technical talent, even management - frankly I’ve no idea how our CEO is this progressive without getting run out on a rail for breach of fiduciary obligations by the capitalist overlord asshole squad - and the fact that their equal dedication means I won’t have to talk to a single idiot or person unwilling to match my effort is something I value more than I can say.
I’ve mostly aged out of statements like, “I don’t want a career, I want a crusade” but in some ways the sentiment lingers: I want something I care enough about to work myself down to the bone for, with and for people who feel the same, and now that I have that I’d do almost anything to keep it.
Vastly better of course would be doing the same work for myself - I am a marxist in the limited sense that I believe workers should own the means of production and split the profits according to whatever rules they vote for themselves - and I did co-found and run a startup for six years but it didn’t work out (I am not good at project scope). This is the next best thing, and I’ll take it. The fact that I get paid very well to work remotely from a nice apartment in Boston is icing on an already pretty great cake.
Ultimately it’s not vacation I’m lacking; it’s 1:1 comp time for when a depressive cycle hits immediately after a manic cycle has me working 12~14 hour days uncompensated. I could really use at least some of those hours back but I get that’s kind of a difficult policy to integrate across a large team. The fact that I self-censor and don’t even ask for accomodation like that - they’d probably say yes? - is very much due to the internalized toxic side of American attitudes towards labor.
The rest, though? To steal from Achewood: this is my vocation, from the Latin “vox” meant to imply a calling by God. And most days that’s how it feels.
posted by Ryvar at 5:01 PM on September 7, 2022
IF we lived in a sane society with universal basic income, universal healthcare, free college and Internet access as a fundamental human right… it’s not just that I would do the job for free. Truth is I would crawl on broken glass to experience anything half as creatively or intellectually validating and fulfilling as my job is every fucking day. My co-workers are universally wonderful & progressive people with exceptional artistic or technical talent, even management - frankly I’ve no idea how our CEO is this progressive without getting run out on a rail for breach of fiduciary obligations by the capitalist overlord asshole squad - and the fact that their equal dedication means I won’t have to talk to a single idiot or person unwilling to match my effort is something I value more than I can say.
I’ve mostly aged out of statements like, “I don’t want a career, I want a crusade” but in some ways the sentiment lingers: I want something I care enough about to work myself down to the bone for, with and for people who feel the same, and now that I have that I’d do almost anything to keep it.
Vastly better of course would be doing the same work for myself - I am a marxist in the limited sense that I believe workers should own the means of production and split the profits according to whatever rules they vote for themselves - and I did co-found and run a startup for six years but it didn’t work out (I am not good at project scope). This is the next best thing, and I’ll take it. The fact that I get paid very well to work remotely from a nice apartment in Boston is icing on an already pretty great cake.
Ultimately it’s not vacation I’m lacking; it’s 1:1 comp time for when a depressive cycle hits immediately after a manic cycle has me working 12~14 hour days uncompensated. I could really use at least some of those hours back but I get that’s kind of a difficult policy to integrate across a large team. The fact that I self-censor and don’t even ask for accomodation like that - they’d probably say yes? - is very much due to the internalized toxic side of American attitudes towards labor.
The rest, though? To steal from Achewood: this is my vocation, from the Latin “vox” meant to imply a calling by God. And most days that’s how it feels.
posted by Ryvar at 5:01 PM on September 7, 2022
I don't see anyone acknowledging bullshit jobs. If I spend all day reading the internet and scratching my ass, what do I need a vacation from anyway?
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:42 PM on September 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:42 PM on September 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
I work with a bunch of engineers. The company recently got rid of three holidays (Columbus Day, Presidents’ Day, and the day after Thanksgiving), and added the three days to our PTO. However, the engineers just saw it as a challenge to get more work done.
posted by Melismata at 5:50 PM on September 7, 2022
posted by Melismata at 5:50 PM on September 7, 2022
I don't see anyone acknowledging bullshit jobs. If I spend all day reading the internet and scratching my ass, what do I need a vacation from anyway?
paper chromatographologist
You should check out Bullshit Jobs: A Theory by the late anthropologist David Graeber, which answers this exact point.
Contrary to the sneering condescension in your comment, Graeber argues that bullshit jobs are a symptom of our badly broken system and that performing these jobs, despite often good compensation and ample free time, takes a serious toll on the people holding them because they know they're bullshit but live in a society that tells them that their work is their self worth.
So to answer your question, a job's a job. It puts strain on the worker whether it's "bullshit" or not. In our current system we need to work to live, especially in the US, so we take the jobs we can get. People still need time for themselves that isn't the job.
posted by star gentle uterus at 5:57 PM on September 7, 2022 [25 favorites]
paper chromatographologist
You should check out Bullshit Jobs: A Theory by the late anthropologist David Graeber, which answers this exact point.
Contrary to the sneering condescension in your comment, Graeber argues that bullshit jobs are a symptom of our badly broken system and that performing these jobs, despite often good compensation and ample free time, takes a serious toll on the people holding them because they know they're bullshit but live in a society that tells them that their work is their self worth.
So to answer your question, a job's a job. It puts strain on the worker whether it's "bullshit" or not. In our current system we need to work to live, especially in the US, so we take the jobs we can get. People still need time for themselves that isn't the job.
posted by star gentle uterus at 5:57 PM on September 7, 2022 [25 favorites]
I just got a very nasty series of e-mails from an internal EU client who was OFF FOR AN ENTIRE MONTH this summer who was SUPER-TICKED I didn't respond to her e-mail on Labor Day. She explained to me at length how unprofessional it was to be out of the office and not responding to e-mail on a Monday and why my lazy, unprofessional behavior was a serious inconvenience to her.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:08 PM on September 7, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:08 PM on September 7, 2022 [18 favorites]
star gentle uterus, to clarify: I'm not sneering. I've had a couple jobs like that and felt exactly the way I described. It honestly feels weird to officially leave off work when I don't do any significant work anyway.
And to further clarify: it absolutely sucks to be contributing nothing.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:09 PM on September 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
And to further clarify: it absolutely sucks to be contributing nothing.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:09 PM on September 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
We take at least one long vacation every year because I teach so there are a bunch of holidays and long breaks built into the calendar, and my husband has a union constuction job with a vacation fund (paid into every week) he can hit up when one contract job ends before he starts the next one, so we can afford to go somewhere.
In both places, there's a workplace culture that you won't check your email (he doesn't even have a work email lol) or answer work calls when on vacation. Money is still an issue because we could be saving that money for the future instead of spending it now, but yeah man this is about both of us having union jobs, where the union has negotiated a contract that protects your right to time off.
posted by subdee at 6:26 PM on September 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
In both places, there's a workplace culture that you won't check your email (he doesn't even have a work email lol) or answer work calls when on vacation. Money is still an issue because we could be saving that money for the future instead of spending it now, but yeah man this is about both of us having union jobs, where the union has negotiated a contract that protects your right to time off.
posted by subdee at 6:26 PM on September 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
"I just got a very nasty series of e-mails from an internal EU client who was OFF FOR AN ENTIRE MONTH this summer who was SUPER-TICKED I didn't respond to her e-mail on Labor Day. She explained to me at length how unprofessional it was to be out of the office and not responding to e-mail on a Monday and why my lazy, unprofessional behavior was a serious inconvenience to her."
I can't speak directly to your job, but I've been noticing increasing instances of European countries known for their good labor practices and civilized approach to work/life exploiting the workers in their American branches in ways they would never do at home. I can't help but feel that the ease of exploitation is just as much why they are here as our large consumer market. Undoubtedly, this has been going on a long time, but I was shocked when I recently looked up the labor practices at HelloFresh, a German company, or Ikea, a Swedish company, only to see long lists of labor violations. In recent conversations with a friend in Ukraine, we have both been realizing that the oligarchs of the Slavic world aren't that different from their American counterparts.
When I was young, and met non-Americans traveling, everyone was interested in Americanness and the razzle-dazzle of our international media. But now that I'm grown, I understand that those are marketing pitches targeting Americans as much as anybody, and they certainly don't reflect the way most of us live. It breaks my heart to say this as an American, but had it been mine to choose I would not have been born here because being an American will, in many ways, make my life poorer.
posted by Violet Blue at 6:42 PM on September 7, 2022 [15 favorites]
I can't speak directly to your job, but I've been noticing increasing instances of European countries known for their good labor practices and civilized approach to work/life exploiting the workers in their American branches in ways they would never do at home. I can't help but feel that the ease of exploitation is just as much why they are here as our large consumer market. Undoubtedly, this has been going on a long time, but I was shocked when I recently looked up the labor practices at HelloFresh, a German company, or Ikea, a Swedish company, only to see long lists of labor violations. In recent conversations with a friend in Ukraine, we have both been realizing that the oligarchs of the Slavic world aren't that different from their American counterparts.
When I was young, and met non-Americans traveling, everyone was interested in Americanness and the razzle-dazzle of our international media. But now that I'm grown, I understand that those are marketing pitches targeting Americans as much as anybody, and they certainly don't reflect the way most of us live. It breaks my heart to say this as an American, but had it been mine to choose I would not have been born here because being an American will, in many ways, make my life poorer.
posted by Violet Blue at 6:42 PM on September 7, 2022 [15 favorites]
"I can't speak directly to your job, but I've been noticing increasing instances of European countries known for their good labor practices and civilized approach to work/life exploiting the workers in their American branches in ways they would never do at home."
Yeah, my direct EU counterparts are often a little embarrassed they get so much more vacation time than we do, and they're always offering to cover for us so we can take time off. But some of our internal EU clients do seem to expect that while the EU team members will come and go on vacation, the American team members will be there on demand. (Although I do think this particular person is a little bit ... intense and self-involved.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:56 PM on September 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, my direct EU counterparts are often a little embarrassed they get so much more vacation time than we do, and they're always offering to cover for us so we can take time off. But some of our internal EU clients do seem to expect that while the EU team members will come and go on vacation, the American team members will be there on demand. (Although I do think this particular person is a little bit ... intense and self-involved.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:56 PM on September 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I can't speak directly to your job, but I've been noticing increasing instances of European countries known for their good labor practices and civilized approach to work/life exploiting the workers in their American branches in ways they would never do at home.
The games industry has had this dynamic in a lot of the major multinational companies for a long time - doesn’t apply to my situation but I’ve heard several complaints this behavior’s been on the rise since Covid. Like lockdown hit the EU studios with a spike of US-style “take your work home with you” and they fell into the toxic pattern they were familiar with… ours.
but had it been mine to choose I would not have been born here because being an American will, in many ways, make my life poorer.
Despite everything I said in my comment above: same. Or maybe because of all the “If we lived in a sane society” caveats I prefaced with, which sets a minimum bar on “civilized” that is impossible to see from where the US currently is. I would like to be an overachiever in post-scarcity democratic socialism, basically, rather than in a capitalist hellscape where overachieving can’t help but slightly harm the worker’s rights of those around me.
posted by Ryvar at 7:37 PM on September 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
The games industry has had this dynamic in a lot of the major multinational companies for a long time - doesn’t apply to my situation but I’ve heard several complaints this behavior’s been on the rise since Covid. Like lockdown hit the EU studios with a spike of US-style “take your work home with you” and they fell into the toxic pattern they were familiar with… ours.
but had it been mine to choose I would not have been born here because being an American will, in many ways, make my life poorer.
Despite everything I said in my comment above: same. Or maybe because of all the “If we lived in a sane society” caveats I prefaced with, which sets a minimum bar on “civilized” that is impossible to see from where the US currently is. I would like to be an overachiever in post-scarcity democratic socialism, basically, rather than in a capitalist hellscape where overachieving can’t help but slightly harm the worker’s rights of those around me.
posted by Ryvar at 7:37 PM on September 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm am lucky my boss yells at us to take all PTO, I think it really screws up the organization taxes if we don't
posted by eustatic at 7:53 PM on September 7, 2022
posted by eustatic at 7:53 PM on September 7, 2022
Six years ago I took a once in a lifetime vacation with my dad and brother to Europe for three weeks. It was great. While I was gone, however, my employer changed my job to where I went from overseeing 4-5 people to now having 30 people under me performing the role in a different manner than before. I had no time to prepare for it and figure out how to manage it well. It was just immediately the day I got back I had a ton more work to do for a client that was never happy no matter what we did. I still take vacation days every year but it was so traumatizing that I spend half my vacation worried that something like that will happen again.
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:04 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:04 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Maybe the problem isn’t so much that workers are bad at vacation as much as companies are cheap and bad at staffing.
My company is generous with vacation time as the US goes, and people do use the time they have. My co-workers have asked me repeatedly when I plan to take a vacation, and expressed relief when I told them that I have a whole eight glorious days off plus one weekend planned later this fall. I am ready as hell for those days and feel no guilt about taking them.
But my role, like so many now, is a giant amalgamation of what should be two to three jobs. I luckily have a supportive network of co-workers who can cover different pieces of it, but there’s no single person who backs me up. When I change up my voicemail message to say “I am out of the office from x to y days,” there is no one contact number I can leave to call in an emergency, because my network of backup people is scattered across five work sites and the people who call me often don’t know which of those sites they need. It is simultaneously really cool to know realize what a strong base of institutional knowledge I’ve built up and terrifying to realize how much of it rests with me alone.
I recently got a new boss who I don’t like much, and I have decided that my new purpose in life is to stress, repeatedly, that I need a single person to back me up and direct my calls to the appropriate parties when I’m out. She’s big on thinking outside the box and disruption and all those other business school terms for “fucking up existing models,” so surely she must have some ideas. I’ve been asking for two or three weeks now, and nothing. Outside the box thinking only means endless meetings and pushing existing staff to their limits.
posted by I am a Sock, I am an Island at 8:05 PM on September 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
My company is generous with vacation time as the US goes, and people do use the time they have. My co-workers have asked me repeatedly when I plan to take a vacation, and expressed relief when I told them that I have a whole eight glorious days off plus one weekend planned later this fall. I am ready as hell for those days and feel no guilt about taking them.
But my role, like so many now, is a giant amalgamation of what should be two to three jobs. I luckily have a supportive network of co-workers who can cover different pieces of it, but there’s no single person who backs me up. When I change up my voicemail message to say “I am out of the office from x to y days,” there is no one contact number I can leave to call in an emergency, because my network of backup people is scattered across five work sites and the people who call me often don’t know which of those sites they need. It is simultaneously really cool to know realize what a strong base of institutional knowledge I’ve built up and terrifying to realize how much of it rests with me alone.
I recently got a new boss who I don’t like much, and I have decided that my new purpose in life is to stress, repeatedly, that I need a single person to back me up and direct my calls to the appropriate parties when I’m out. She’s big on thinking outside the box and disruption and all those other business school terms for “fucking up existing models,” so surely she must have some ideas. I’ve been asking for two or three weeks now, and nothing. Outside the box thinking only means endless meetings and pushing existing staff to their limits.
posted by I am a Sock, I am an Island at 8:05 PM on September 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
PTO still sounds like a fantasy to me… I got PTO exactly once, when I worked for my uncle for a summer and he paid me for July 4th. Never been in a job since that offers it.
But yeah, mostly taking off work is hard because we’re all performing the work of three people and if we aren’t there six things crash to a halt, two of which set on fire, and one might actually get someone killed (yay, healthcare fields!). It’s very hard to just shrug off responsibility for that, in American culture. But we really do need to start blaming employers for their bad staffing practices.
posted by brook horse at 8:09 PM on September 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
But yeah, mostly taking off work is hard because we’re all performing the work of three people and if we aren’t there six things crash to a halt, two of which set on fire, and one might actually get someone killed (yay, healthcare fields!). It’s very hard to just shrug off responsibility for that, in American culture. But we really do need to start blaming employers for their bad staffing practices.
posted by brook horse at 8:09 PM on September 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
Feels like the problem is there's no slack in peoples' jobs. It's all "we've JITed everything". Personally, I blame Java and smalltalk* - ironically, those being signs of a slackful environment.
Is that possible though? Is system science the cultural idiom that quantum mechanics and machines were in times past?
* And Lisp but that tanks the observation
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:24 PM on September 7, 2022
Is that possible though? Is system science the cultural idiom that quantum mechanics and machines were in times past?
* And Lisp but that tanks the observation
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:24 PM on September 7, 2022
Hey, some of us try. (Although I am in fact Canadian.)
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:43 PM on September 7, 2022
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:43 PM on September 7, 2022
No Slack in the System is part of the problem.
If taking two weeks away from your job requires that:
- You spend the two weeks prior working overtime (uncompensated, because salary) to prepare yourself and everyone else for your absence
- You arrive at your 'holiday' fully exhausted, so you manage to finally get relaxed in the last day or two
- Only to arrive back at work to face another two weeks of overtime catching up (in addition to your coworkers side-eyeing you 'gee, I hope you enjoyed your great vacation, while we all covered for you, I hope it was worth it')
...then why bother taking it? It costs you more in time and energy and aggravation than NOT taking time off.
People are supposed to feel gratitude busting their ass for an extra month, in order to get the opportunity to get shouty at their kids and finance a four thousand dollar sunburn?
All because there's no slack, no extra wiggle room, anyone anywhere in the chain taking time off is a disruptive break in just-in-time production.
Doesn't matter if you do 'high-level' work or if you spend 8 hours a day 5 days a week drilling the same 3 holes in metal flange valve covers.
Those holes gotta get drilled! Or else the line shuts down!
I don't know what the solution is. But I did admire the impression I got from anecdotes once upon a time, that there is at least one week in August (?) where, say, all of Paris is basically Closed for Business. Just pray that you don't crack a tooth or break the toilet that week.
It's not applicable universally, but I'd admire one of those 'Maverick CEOs' who announced that "Look, we here at WidgetCo have decided to just admit that anyone coming to work in the week between Xmas and New Year's day is either faking it or trying too hard.
So we're turning the lights off for that whole week company wide. No Widgets will be manufactured, bought, sold, processed, or analyzed between Dec 23 and Jan 2.
We're closed. Gone fishin'. Everybody here has the week off. Operators are NOT standing by to take your call. Our suppliers and customers will just have to deal with it, Sorry."
posted by bartleby at 10:29 PM on September 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
If taking two weeks away from your job requires that:
- You spend the two weeks prior working overtime (uncompensated, because salary) to prepare yourself and everyone else for your absence
- You arrive at your 'holiday' fully exhausted, so you manage to finally get relaxed in the last day or two
- Only to arrive back at work to face another two weeks of overtime catching up (in addition to your coworkers side-eyeing you 'gee, I hope you enjoyed your great vacation, while we all covered for you, I hope it was worth it')
...then why bother taking it? It costs you more in time and energy and aggravation than NOT taking time off.
People are supposed to feel gratitude busting their ass for an extra month, in order to get the opportunity to get shouty at their kids and finance a four thousand dollar sunburn?
All because there's no slack, no extra wiggle room, anyone anywhere in the chain taking time off is a disruptive break in just-in-time production.
Doesn't matter if you do 'high-level' work or if you spend 8 hours a day 5 days a week drilling the same 3 holes in metal flange valve covers.
Those holes gotta get drilled! Or else the line shuts down!
I don't know what the solution is. But I did admire the impression I got from anecdotes once upon a time, that there is at least one week in August (?) where, say, all of Paris is basically Closed for Business. Just pray that you don't crack a tooth or break the toilet that week.
It's not applicable universally, but I'd admire one of those 'Maverick CEOs' who announced that "Look, we here at WidgetCo have decided to just admit that anyone coming to work in the week between Xmas and New Year's day is either faking it or trying too hard.
So we're turning the lights off for that whole week company wide. No Widgets will be manufactured, bought, sold, processed, or analyzed between Dec 23 and Jan 2.
We're closed. Gone fishin'. Everybody here has the week off. Operators are NOT standing by to take your call. Our suppliers and customers will just have to deal with it, Sorry."
posted by bartleby at 10:29 PM on September 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
From where I work, Americans and Asians (esp Southeast and East) are the ones who are the most anxious about being on-call and overworking. But at least on the Southeast side, it's overworking in hours clocked but we do tend to have a more lax working culture between those hours. But yeah, if I judge it by email response rate, the difference with continental Europeans can be quite evident.
posted by cendawanita at 10:30 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 10:30 PM on September 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
I've never worked there and kinda doubt it's an enlightened utopia, but Boeing shuts down for the two weeks around xmas and new year's (or least they used to) for exactly the reason that bartleby mentions. Makes sense to me, but goddess help our retail brethren.
posted by maxwelton at 11:19 PM on September 7, 2022
posted by maxwelton at 11:19 PM on September 7, 2022
but I'd admire one of those 'Maverick CEOs' who announced that "Look, we here at WidgetCo have decided to just admit that anyone coming to work in the week between Xmas and New Year's day is either faking it or trying too hard. So we're turning the lights off for that whole week company wide.
Upthread I said nice things about our CEO. This exact thing - delivered with a "what's the point? Go be with your families" - is one reason, as is the recent addition of a few new esoteric holidays to ensure every month contains at least one three-day weekend "for better mental health."
Thing that really got me - first time I've sent management a thank-you note or even thought to - was a company-wide offer of relocation financial assistance to all our hundreds of employees if their family might be affected by new abortion restrictions or recent anti-trans ordinances ...and nearly all of us work remote within Texas.
So that's what broke two decades of accrued games industry cynicism, but as reasons go it felt like a good one.
posted by Ryvar at 1:29 AM on September 8, 2022 [11 favorites]
Upthread I said nice things about our CEO. This exact thing - delivered with a "what's the point? Go be with your families" - is one reason, as is the recent addition of a few new esoteric holidays to ensure every month contains at least one three-day weekend "for better mental health."
Thing that really got me - first time I've sent management a thank-you note or even thought to - was a company-wide offer of relocation financial assistance to all our hundreds of employees if their family might be affected by new abortion restrictions or recent anti-trans ordinances ...and nearly all of us work remote within Texas.
So that's what broke two decades of accrued games industry cynicism, but as reasons go it felt like a good one.
posted by Ryvar at 1:29 AM on September 8, 2022 [11 favorites]
Somehow work was “so busy” with quarterly reporting that I could only take the Friday off before my wedding (still had a 40 hour week though) yet my supervisor left in June and somehow we’ve been managing since then?
The whole experience has left such a sour taste in my mouth that I’m currently job searching now and when I go the projects in my portfolio will have zero coverage because they still haven’t replaced my supervisor. Oh well.
posted by raccoon409 at 3:43 AM on September 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
The whole experience has left such a sour taste in my mouth that I’m currently job searching now and when I go the projects in my portfolio will have zero coverage because they still haven’t replaced my supervisor. Oh well.
posted by raccoon409 at 3:43 AM on September 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
I mean, a feature here is the US businesses consider it vital to run everyone at 100% all day every day, so no one is there to pick up your slack and when you get back you just have 200% of your workload, half of it overdue.
Yeah, this. No one else does my job so even being gone for a few days causes work to pile up.
posted by octothorpe at 3:58 AM on September 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, this. No one else does my job so even being gone for a few days causes work to pile up.
posted by octothorpe at 3:58 AM on September 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
I knew a guy who worked at a facility for a large, multinational manufacturer of farm equipment and he talked about a guy he knew there who was laid off while he was on vacation. There were two truly remarkable things about this particular lay off--- 1) the company had been posting profitable quarters for years but it decided that it needed to "cut costs" and 2) the man they laid off had been working there for 30 years and that particular week he took off was the first he'd ever taken in all those years (I believe his wife wanted to see the Grand Canyon or something.) 30 years of faithful service and the only real vacation he'd ever had and he was informed, while on vacation, that he was being laid off.
And people wonder why Americans don't take time off.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:23 AM on September 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
And people wonder why Americans don't take time off.
posted by drstrangelove at 4:23 AM on September 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
I can't figure out the vibe at my current workplace at all. We have a probably typical two weeks vacation + two weeks sick leave when you start, and over 20 years the two weeks vacation increases to six. I think I'm at twelve days now.
When I started at this company the president of the company took me and a couple of new hires out to lunch. One of my colleagues mentioned that his previous company simply had PTO instead of sick leave and the president groused that some people who have been at the company for decades have months and months of sick leave accumulated while some coincidentally are always sitting at zero, implying they took sick leave when they weren't really sick. I made a mental note that sick leave was not to be taken.
My immediate supervisor talked about someone on another team going on vacation a few months later and said, "I don't know why people who take two weeks off come back. We clearly don't need them." I made a mental note that vacation time was not to be taken.
In the years since then I've always sat right at my maximum vacation balance, only taking the time I would otherwise lose. I did take a month "off" when we had the baby last March and I counted it all as sick leave. I answered emails and called in to a couple of meetings during that month but for the most part it really was time away from work. I get four or five emails a day some days, but some days I get none.
This year I learned that there's one guy a couple of years junior to me in the company at another nearby office who takes six weeks off every summer to teach rock climbing at a summer camp in the Rockies. I have to admit my first reaction was, "If we don't need him for six weeks every year we probably don't need him at all."
Obviously everyone here should get to be that guy, but the fact that only one person gets to be that guy is an impediment to everyone else here who still has to get all the same work done. I'm one of them so that's not a guess. I do wonder what the vacation approval rate on his team is during those six weeks though. I'm guessing people get asked to wait until he gets back because we're shorthanded.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 4:31 AM on September 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
When I started at this company the president of the company took me and a couple of new hires out to lunch. One of my colleagues mentioned that his previous company simply had PTO instead of sick leave and the president groused that some people who have been at the company for decades have months and months of sick leave accumulated while some coincidentally are always sitting at zero, implying they took sick leave when they weren't really sick. I made a mental note that sick leave was not to be taken.
My immediate supervisor talked about someone on another team going on vacation a few months later and said, "I don't know why people who take two weeks off come back. We clearly don't need them." I made a mental note that vacation time was not to be taken.
In the years since then I've always sat right at my maximum vacation balance, only taking the time I would otherwise lose. I did take a month "off" when we had the baby last March and I counted it all as sick leave. I answered emails and called in to a couple of meetings during that month but for the most part it really was time away from work. I get four or five emails a day some days, but some days I get none.
This year I learned that there's one guy a couple of years junior to me in the company at another nearby office who takes six weeks off every summer to teach rock climbing at a summer camp in the Rockies. I have to admit my first reaction was, "If we don't need him for six weeks every year we probably don't need him at all."
Obviously everyone here should get to be that guy, but the fact that only one person gets to be that guy is an impediment to everyone else here who still has to get all the same work done. I'm one of them so that's not a guess. I do wonder what the vacation approval rate on his team is during those six weeks though. I'm guessing people get asked to wait until he gets back because we're shorthanded.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 4:31 AM on September 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
But...but...that guy takes six weeks every year! Surely he's being a great example to point to instead of not using vacation time?
I hate these situations. If they give the time, it should be taken.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:01 AM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
I hate these situations. If they give the time, it should be taken.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:01 AM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
The junior PM on our team asked the senior PM on his team not to assign That Guy to one of our projects because he knew the project wouldn't be finished before That Guy went to summer camp and more time would be lost getting someone else up to speed and was told, "He's a superstar!"
So official policy is That Guy is a superstar and everyone else is just here to finish all the things he starts / clean up after him.
The one person I have made up my mind not to blame for any of this is That Guy because he's getting his and I wish everyone else could do the same. I already told my boss I never want to hear a complaint about my vacation timing or that I haven't met my UR target because the existence of a single person to whom none of that stuff applies means none of that stuff needs to apply to anyone.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 5:14 AM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
So official policy is That Guy is a superstar and everyone else is just here to finish all the things he starts / clean up after him.
The one person I have made up my mind not to blame for any of this is That Guy because he's getting his and I wish everyone else could do the same. I already told my boss I never want to hear a complaint about my vacation timing or that I haven't met my UR target because the existence of a single person to whom none of that stuff applies means none of that stuff needs to apply to anyone.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 5:14 AM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
When I was around 30, I had been at a job for a few years that I felt I was doing pretty well at. My wife and I decided to take a big trip overseas as my first two-week vacation since I'd started working. Anyway, trip was great! I get back to the office, and there is a new person there (we were a pretty small company). I ask "who are you?". He introduces himself as the new... me. Same title, same position.
My immediate thought, of course, is that I've been fired while I was gone and someone forgot to tell me. I find my boss, and she explains that, oh , they decided to shift me into an entirely different role because I had shown promise at it, and backfilled my position. This was a huge career shift, and all done totally without any discussion with me.
Anyway, I ended up leaving that job a year or so later. Obviously the decision-making had started before I went on vacation (they couldn't have hired the guy that quickly), but it certainly instilled in me a fear of taking vacation. It took a good long while to get over it again and start enjoying it the way we are supposed to.
posted by Zargon X at 5:56 AM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
My immediate thought, of course, is that I've been fired while I was gone and someone forgot to tell me. I find my boss, and she explains that, oh , they decided to shift me into an entirely different role because I had shown promise at it, and backfilled my position. This was a huge career shift, and all done totally without any discussion with me.
Anyway, I ended up leaving that job a year or so later. Obviously the decision-making had started before I went on vacation (they couldn't have hired the guy that quickly), but it certainly instilled in me a fear of taking vacation. It took a good long while to get over it again and start enjoying it the way we are supposed to.
posted by Zargon X at 5:56 AM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
I hate these situations. If they give the time, it should be taken.
This seems like Ask Culture vs. Guess Culture as applied to employment norms. “Well, he offered me coffee, so I felt I had to accept it.” “Not on the first offer! That’s incredibly rude!”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:05 AM on September 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
This seems like Ask Culture vs. Guess Culture as applied to employment norms. “Well, he offered me coffee, so I felt I had to accept it.” “Not on the first offer! That’s incredibly rude!”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:05 AM on September 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
the recent addition of a few new esoteric holidays to ensure every month contains at least one three-day weekend "for better mental health."
I spent a bunch of summers as a young man as a student/casual employee of a steel mill. Not necessarily the most enlightened place to work, but I’ve got say that after my first summer (and thus for the subsequent four or five) they moved to twelve-hour shifts. The place was of course running 24/7, and the week was divided into three chunks: Monday/Tuesday, Wednesday/Thursday, Friday/Saturday/Sunday. You worked days on one chunk, were off for the next, worked nights on the subsequent bit, were off again, back to days, etc.
I, like a lot of others, was initially apprehensive about the switch from eight-hour shifts to twelve, but then the realization came along: twenty-six three-day weekends per year is not a bad thing at all. Every weekend is a long weekend, and really if you’re there for eight, why not be there for twelve?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:15 AM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I spent a bunch of summers as a young man as a student/casual employee of a steel mill. Not necessarily the most enlightened place to work, but I’ve got say that after my first summer (and thus for the subsequent four or five) they moved to twelve-hour shifts. The place was of course running 24/7, and the week was divided into three chunks: Monday/Tuesday, Wednesday/Thursday, Friday/Saturday/Sunday. You worked days on one chunk, were off for the next, worked nights on the subsequent bit, were off again, back to days, etc.
I, like a lot of others, was initially apprehensive about the switch from eight-hour shifts to twelve, but then the realization came along: twenty-six three-day weekends per year is not a bad thing at all. Every weekend is a long weekend, and really if you’re there for eight, why not be there for twelve?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:15 AM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
My company switched to unlimited PTO last year and people are absolutely taking that shit, to the extent that I don't think our department had a full staff any week of this summer. Projects just tanked, everything got delayed, and...nobody cares.
Before, I was a recovering freelancer and had bought into the notion of hoarding vacay to get paid out, so my boss was forever lecturing me about not taking enough time off. Now I take that time, and my boss lectures me about "how are we supposed to function when you're out for a week." The only winning move is not to play, apparently.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:51 AM on September 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
Before, I was a recovering freelancer and had bought into the notion of hoarding vacay to get paid out, so my boss was forever lecturing me about not taking enough time off. Now I take that time, and my boss lectures me about "how are we supposed to function when you're out for a week." The only winning move is not to play, apparently.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:51 AM on September 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
Following the company's own supposed rules, using the time you're given, vs. what many describe here as somewhat unspoken rules of not taking vacation...the 1st is what I'd prefer.
I haven't ever engaged much in Ask vs. Guess culture, don't really subscribe.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:55 AM on September 8, 2022
I haven't ever engaged much in Ask vs. Guess culture, don't really subscribe.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:55 AM on September 8, 2022
I don't know if you get to subscribe to cultures. They're kind of already there when you show up.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 7:34 AM on September 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 7:34 AM on September 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
This isn't a case of "ask vs. guess culture". It's not that management has a different culture than employees and there is friction because of mutual misunderstanding, it's that management does not actually want employees to ever take vacation time no matter what the official policies say. From their POV those are there for marketing purposes to attract employees and maybe comply with applicable law, not to actually be used, because actually using vacation time proves the employee is worthless and lazy.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:46 AM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:46 AM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
The three cultures: Ask, Guess, Kobayashi Maru
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:47 AM on September 8, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:47 AM on September 8, 2022 [15 favorites]
I often find that once you take the vacation you realise knackered you are, how your attitude to work has become less positive, etc. It's possible to come back refreshed and with new perspective.
I wish, but I pretty much feel like I stuck my hand back in the nerve-induction box. Doing the same stressful shit again but in a larger workload makes that refreshed feeling go away mighty quick :/
But my role, like so many now, is a giant amalgamation of what should be two to three jobs. I luckily have a supportive network of co-workers who can cover different pieces of it, but there’s no single person who backs me up.
No Slack in the System is part of the problem.
Exactly. Yes, that's the problem right there. If it makes your life worse to take time off, why bother? We literally never have enough staff to reasonably be able to cover for someone being out.
but Boeing shuts down for the two weeks around xmas and new year's (or least they used to) for exactly the reason that bartleby mentions.
That's part of why I got into my industry, because my organization MOSTLY does this, but my office is So! Dedicated! To! SERVICE! that management doesn't want to close even though our demand level goes WAY down when the service population leaves town and the offices we work in tandem with also shut down. Every year we have to have a entire office discussion as to whether or not to shut down officially for the three days in between Christmas days off and New Year's Days off because they won't give us free time off for those days and you have to use your vacation time (really, if anyone wants to walk into the office at that time, they need a life), who hasn't worked here long enough to have the vacation time they can choose to use, how they're not allowed to take unpaid time off (a former coworker of mine was quite steamed on this), how a manager has to work if anyone chooses to work, etc., etc.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:07 AM on September 8, 2022
I wish, but I pretty much feel like I stuck my hand back in the nerve-induction box. Doing the same stressful shit again but in a larger workload makes that refreshed feeling go away mighty quick :/
But my role, like so many now, is a giant amalgamation of what should be two to three jobs. I luckily have a supportive network of co-workers who can cover different pieces of it, but there’s no single person who backs me up.
No Slack in the System is part of the problem.
Exactly. Yes, that's the problem right there. If it makes your life worse to take time off, why bother? We literally never have enough staff to reasonably be able to cover for someone being out.
but Boeing shuts down for the two weeks around xmas and new year's (or least they used to) for exactly the reason that bartleby mentions.
That's part of why I got into my industry, because my organization MOSTLY does this, but my office is So! Dedicated! To! SERVICE! that management doesn't want to close even though our demand level goes WAY down when the service population leaves town and the offices we work in tandem with also shut down. Every year we have to have a entire office discussion as to whether or not to shut down officially for the three days in between Christmas days off and New Year's Days off because they won't give us free time off for those days and you have to use your vacation time (really, if anyone wants to walk into the office at that time, they need a life), who hasn't worked here long enough to have the vacation time they can choose to use, how they're not allowed to take unpaid time off (a former coworker of mine was quite steamed on this), how a manager has to work if anyone chooses to work, etc., etc.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:07 AM on September 8, 2022
This is not something new. It goes way back. Europeans used to take 4 weeks vacation as opposed to the two week or one week American vacation. Our next door neighbors go to the Jersey shore in July for a week. They have been doing this for years. They have never been out of this country nor will they ever do so. This past July it cost them $12,000 for the week. They went with their two daughters, their husbands, three toddlers and friend who is wheel chair bound. So the cost was divided up, but still. Plus who wants to go on vacation with people you see almost daily otherwise. We have not traveled in a while since I have had anosmia for five out of the last seven years. What is the sense of going on vacation if you can not smell or taste anything?
posted by DJZouke at 12:07 PM on September 8, 2022
posted by DJZouke at 12:07 PM on September 8, 2022
I don't know if you get to subscribe to cultures. They're kind of already there when you show up.
I haven't read about it enough to concede its a real enough thing, is what I mean. It sounds very simplistic, what I do know, and doesn't seem to apply here, or at least to what I was speaking of.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:12 PM on September 8, 2022
I haven't read about it enough to concede its a real enough thing, is what I mean. It sounds very simplistic, what I do know, and doesn't seem to apply here, or at least to what I was speaking of.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:12 PM on September 8, 2022
Your employment contract, and the benefits that you are due (or not due) therefrom, is a contract, not a culture.
posted by eviemath at 1:50 PM on September 8, 2022
posted by eviemath at 1:50 PM on September 8, 2022
What is this... "employment contract" you speak of? It sounds like something places with minimum PTO protections would have.
posted by CrystalDave at 2:21 PM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by CrystalDave at 2:21 PM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
One of the things I loved about working for the public service here was the very strong culture of people not only deserving to take time off, but needing to do so and being more productive overall when they do. The last agency I worked for had a paid week-long shut-down over the Christmas/new year period, to the extent that all employees swipe cards were disabled for the period and all offices literally shut down, except for a couple of people in each office that were permitted to have access and were on call in case of emergencies (for which they got paid). Staff were expected to take their four weeks leave in the year they earn it and, if they accrued too much, were strongly encouraged to take it and could be forced to go on leave to make them take a break if they didn't do it voluntarily.
It's neither healthy nor productive for people to work without breaks and I don't get why corporate bosses can't get their head around the fact that they'll make more money from people if they let them get out of the office and refresh their mind regularly.
posted by dg at 2:42 PM on September 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's neither healthy nor productive for people to work without breaks and I don't get why corporate bosses can't get their head around the fact that they'll make more money from people if they let them get out of the office and refresh their mind regularly.
posted by dg at 2:42 PM on September 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
What is this... "employment contract" you speak of?
I had to sign one saying that if I quit and went to a competitor, they could sue me. That's the only contract I have.
posted by octothorpe at 3:01 PM on September 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
I had to sign one saying that if I quit and went to a competitor, they could sue me. That's the only contract I have.
posted by octothorpe at 3:01 PM on September 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Your employment contract, and the benefits that you are due (or not due) therefrom, is a contract, not a culture.
Yeah but you don't get to just spend all day sending memos to and sitting in meetings with your employment contract, and your employment contract doesn't decide whether to give you a raise. I mean...come on.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:14 PM on September 8, 2022
Yeah but you don't get to just spend all day sending memos to and sitting in meetings with your employment contract, and your employment contract doesn't decide whether to give you a raise. I mean...come on.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:14 PM on September 8, 2022
Right now, I'm currently in a US job that gives a ridiculous amount of time off. I get 9ish weeks (45 days or so) of time off between sick, floating holidays, and vacation days. I also get most of the normal paid holidays in the US separate from that count.
I don't have any idea how I should navigate that much time off (actually, I'm having surgery and need six weeks off work, and the whole damn thing will be paid time off, AND I can take a paid vacation this year, AND have a few normal sick days, my brain cannot compute this) but in normal times for me, I really don't know.
My boss is great and supportive, there are some general rules about time off (how many people can be out at once, and clear rules about how coverage works when people are out, how things get distributed so that no one is overwhelmed and there isn't a pile of work for the vacationing person to return to, there are also part-time staff who can fill in if something big happens). This is backed up by union protections. But most people seem to take one 2 week vacation a year, and another single-week vacation at a different point, and bank a week or two of vacation time just in case something happens. Lots of people create three-day weekends here and there. I recently got paranoid because I took a few Fridays off for reasons. The whole time I was thinking, "is this a pattern my boss going to notice and be mad about? Is she going to think I'm lazy and only want to work 4 day weeks? Is she going to fire me at my annual review? " Just this American culture of employers having benefits are not there to actually utilize. The recruitment lies not actual benefits of so many workplaces.
I also live in terror of my boss leaving and being replaced because work culture in the US is so defined by who you report to and not necessarily by overall company culture. I had a great boss at an old job for a while then had a boss who just didn't acknowledge vacation requests, for long periods at a time. So, you couldn't plan for a trip or pay for tickets or do actual vacation things because she just wouldn't respond and you didn't know if you would end up a no-call-no-show for the vacation you planned for a year in advance. In general, she would approve it at the last minute, but the anxiety was really clear among my coworkers If it's not approved in the system, it's not approved. So people put on hold, things cost more money, and we changed the types of vacations we were willing to do. Every place I have worked different departments could have wildly different staffing levels and expectations about time off, even when looking at specific types of work.
And even with a good boss, even in a department with adequate staffing for coverage, and union protections, no one on my current team uses it anywhere near all of the time allotted to them. Most who have been there more than a couple of years have met maximum accruals, and struggle to take their official vacation allotment so they don't lose money. Some of those people end up just losing days, which the company is definitely happy to let people do.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:16 PM on September 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
I don't have any idea how I should navigate that much time off (actually, I'm having surgery and need six weeks off work, and the whole damn thing will be paid time off, AND I can take a paid vacation this year, AND have a few normal sick days, my brain cannot compute this) but in normal times for me, I really don't know.
My boss is great and supportive, there are some general rules about time off (how many people can be out at once, and clear rules about how coverage works when people are out, how things get distributed so that no one is overwhelmed and there isn't a pile of work for the vacationing person to return to, there are also part-time staff who can fill in if something big happens). This is backed up by union protections. But most people seem to take one 2 week vacation a year, and another single-week vacation at a different point, and bank a week or two of vacation time just in case something happens. Lots of people create three-day weekends here and there. I recently got paranoid because I took a few Fridays off for reasons. The whole time I was thinking, "is this a pattern my boss going to notice and be mad about? Is she going to think I'm lazy and only want to work 4 day weeks? Is she going to fire me at my annual review? " Just this American culture of employers having benefits are not there to actually utilize. The recruitment lies not actual benefits of so many workplaces.
I also live in terror of my boss leaving and being replaced because work culture in the US is so defined by who you report to and not necessarily by overall company culture. I had a great boss at an old job for a while then had a boss who just didn't acknowledge vacation requests, for long periods at a time. So, you couldn't plan for a trip or pay for tickets or do actual vacation things because she just wouldn't respond and you didn't know if you would end up a no-call-no-show for the vacation you planned for a year in advance. In general, she would approve it at the last minute, but the anxiety was really clear among my coworkers If it's not approved in the system, it's not approved. So people put on hold, things cost more money, and we changed the types of vacations we were willing to do. Every place I have worked different departments could have wildly different staffing levels and expectations about time off, even when looking at specific types of work.
And even with a good boss, even in a department with adequate staffing for coverage, and union protections, no one on my current team uses it anywhere near all of the time allotted to them. Most who have been there more than a couple of years have met maximum accruals, and struggle to take their official vacation allotment so they don't lose money. Some of those people end up just losing days, which the company is definitely happy to let people do.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:16 PM on September 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
AlexiaSky, where, um, do you work? Asking for a me
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 10:26 PM on September 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 10:26 PM on September 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
I was happily lost in a deep dive into a project I'd dreamed up - a deep, deep dive, fully engaged, living and breathing it without a thought to the clock or an eye on the calendar. Our secretary stopped me first thing one morning and said the administrative head of faculty would like you to pop in for a chat this morning. I charged off, full of myself and my wonderfulness burst into his office and began to pour forth my doings. He was patient. When I was done he said, 'Yes.' Not quite what I was expecting. Where's the paeons of praise, please ? Nope. Instead, I got a 5 star bollocking. Why hadn't I taken my holidays? This semester or last? Why was I neglecting my health? Why was I in the office so late? When did I get time to play sports? Then came the coup de grace - what kind of example was I setting to the staff? I was dumb founded. Gulping air like a goldfish - God bless my tainted soul. This was in the Netherlands. I took my holidays. The project did not suffer. I learnt something.
posted by dutchrick at 2:29 AM on September 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by dutchrick at 2:29 AM on September 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
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