USA v. Trump 2: Prosecution for attempted Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo
August 1, 2023 2:49 PM Subscribe
Donald Trump indicted again by DC Grand Jury. This time it's for his attempts to interfere with the electoral count on Jan 6, 2021.
Four counts:
A conspiracy to defraud the United States "by using dishonesty, fraud and deceit to obstruct the nation’s process of collecting, counting, and certifying the results of the presidential election," according to the special counsel's office.
A conspiracy to impede the Jan. 6 congressional proceeding at which the collected results of the presidential election are counted and certified.
A conspiracy against the right to vote and to have that vote counted.
Obstruction of, and attempt to obstruct and impede, the certification of the electoral vote.
Four counts:
A conspiracy to defraud the United States "by using dishonesty, fraud and deceit to obstruct the nation’s process of collecting, counting, and certifying the results of the presidential election," according to the special counsel's office.
A conspiracy to impede the Jan. 6 congressional proceeding at which the collected results of the presidential election are counted and certified.
A conspiracy against the right to vote and to have that vote counted.
Obstruction of, and attempt to obstruct and impede, the certification of the electoral vote.
There is still one set expected to give us the full trilogy, the indictment in Fulton County, Georgia by DA Fani Willis who Trump recently failed to have thrown off the case.
It should be with us before September 1st.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:53 PM on August 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
It should be with us before September 1st.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:53 PM on August 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
Now it’s a race between someone actually producing a dead alien and Trump facing an actual consequence.
posted by Artw at 2:53 PM on August 1, 2023 [106 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:53 PM on August 1, 2023 [106 favorites]
Six co-conspirators. Probably Giuliani, Eastman, who else?
How many of them are cooperating?
posted by mr_roboto at 2:54 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
How many of them are cooperating?
posted by mr_roboto at 2:54 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
There is still one set expected to give us the full trilogy
Tetralogy, right? NY, GA, and two federal.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:55 PM on August 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
Tetralogy, right? NY, GA, and two federal.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:55 PM on August 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
I'm curious to hear from anyone with Trump voting or Trump leaning friends/relatives. Will anything sway them at this point? Would a conviction do it?
posted by gwint at 3:01 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by gwint at 3:01 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
The liberal media got it wrong again!!!!!
posted by lalochezia at 3:02 PM on August 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 3:02 PM on August 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
Now it’s a race between someone actually producing a dead alien and Trump facing an actual consequence.
Two Big Red Button meme energy here!
posted by alex_skazat at 3:02 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Two Big Red Button meme energy here!
posted by alex_skazat at 3:02 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
And yet, all we can hear on the news is how bad the economy is, and how Biden is terrible.
The USA is so clownish...this guy is still the presumptive candidate for Republicans.
Maybe they'll actually arrest him and we get mug shots on this one. Make him post bail.
posted by Chuffy at 3:08 PM on August 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
The USA is so clownish...this guy is still the presumptive candidate for Republicans.
Maybe they'll actually arrest him and we get mug shots on this one. Make him post bail.
posted by Chuffy at 3:08 PM on August 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
I'm curious to hear from anyone with Trump voting or Trump leaning friends/relatives. Will anything sway them at this point? Would a conviction do it?
No. He was right about being able to shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose any voters.
posted by Chuffy at 3:09 PM on August 1, 2023 [64 favorites]
No. He was right about being able to shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose any voters.
posted by Chuffy at 3:09 PM on August 1, 2023 [64 favorites]
AP: “Tuesday’s criminal case was especially stunning in its allegations that a former president assaulted the underpinnings of democracy in a frantic and ultimately failed effort to cling to power.” I would not describe myself as stunned by these allegations. I would describe myself as having watched this happen in plain sight and in real time. I know a legal case this momentous has to be carefully built, but literally everybody knows what he did, though some think it was justified and the rest of us think it was treasonous.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 3:10 PM on August 1, 2023 [163 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 3:10 PM on August 1, 2023 [163 favorites]
Obstruction of, and attempt to obstruct and impede, the certification of the electoral vote.
I mean... to the extent that the the US federal justice system has charges like "high treason," and has charges that carry the death penalty (not a big fan of either, but here we are), this has to be the bellwether, right? If you're not gonna bring the treason charges against the guy who openly tried to put his thumb on the scale of the presidential election, and you're not gonna pursue the most severe penalties for him, then why even have those laws on the book?
n.b. I know he'll never be convicted of any of this, and I don't actually wish judicial murder on the man, but there would be a certain frisson of "the long arc of the universe bends toward justice" if he burned through his entire fortune defending himself against it
posted by Mayor West at 3:11 PM on August 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
I mean... to the extent that the the US federal justice system has charges like "high treason," and has charges that carry the death penalty (not a big fan of either, but here we are), this has to be the bellwether, right? If you're not gonna bring the treason charges against the guy who openly tried to put his thumb on the scale of the presidential election, and you're not gonna pursue the most severe penalties for him, then why even have those laws on the book?
n.b. I know he'll never be convicted of any of this, and I don't actually wish judicial murder on the man, but there would be a certain frisson of "the long arc of the universe bends toward justice" if he burned through his entire fortune defending himself against it
posted by Mayor West at 3:11 PM on August 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
My feelings about this
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:11 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:11 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
I woke up this morning at 03:00 and could not sleep and found myself listening to this episode of CBC's Ideas (The New World Disorder: The End of America)
the episode did nothing to ease me back to sleep
posted by elkevelvet at 3:13 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
the episode did nothing to ease me back to sleep
posted by elkevelvet at 3:13 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is the happiest day of my life.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:14 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:14 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
If you're not gonna bring the treason charges against the guy who openly tried to put his thumb on the scale of the presidential election, and you're not gonna pursue the most severe penalties for him, then why even have those laws on the book?
In the US, treason typically involves cooperating with a foreign power. You could argue that the insurrection represents a rebellion and therefore a waging of war against the United States, but this would be kind of a big swing. Better just to indict for the things you can win on.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:15 PM on August 1, 2023 [25 favorites]
In the US, treason typically involves cooperating with a foreign power. You could argue that the insurrection represents a rebellion and therefore a waging of war against the United States, but this would be kind of a big swing. Better just to indict for the things you can win on.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:15 PM on August 1, 2023 [25 favorites]
to the extent that the the US federal justice system has charges like "high treason,"
The federal constitution makes criminally-actionable-treason, ie being actually convicted of a crime called treason, very difficult to commit. Ya gots to make war against the US or give aid and comfort to thems what are doing so. Since the US is not involved in an open shooting war, it's functionally impossible for anyone to commit the actual federal crime of treason.
Because of this, the stuff that normal people point at and say "that there is treason" falls under federal laws with different names. Like, for example, conspiracy to defraud the US.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:16 PM on August 1, 2023 [33 favorites]
The federal constitution makes criminally-actionable-treason, ie being actually convicted of a crime called treason, very difficult to commit. Ya gots to make war against the US or give aid and comfort to thems what are doing so. Since the US is not involved in an open shooting war, it's functionally impossible for anyone to commit the actual federal crime of treason.
Because of this, the stuff that normal people point at and say "that there is treason" falls under federal laws with different names. Like, for example, conspiracy to defraud the US.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:16 PM on August 1, 2023 [33 favorites]
Paragraph 90 of the indictment sets forth several private phone calls between Trump and Pence. This means Pence rolled on him, right? Did we know about these phone calls already? Tbh I dumped a lot of Trump stuff from my memory post-2020, so I have no idea what is and isn't new knowledge in this indictment.
posted by yasaman at 3:16 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 3:16 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Borowitz: Trump Only A few Indictments Away From Clinching G.O.P. Nomination
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:17 PM on August 1, 2023 [58 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:17 PM on August 1, 2023 [58 favorites]
If we didn't hang Jeff Davis, this clown ain't gonna swing.
Oh, and for the question of how are right wingers responding? Last I read, they're so in love with their messianic cult leader that this is driving more of them away from other republican options.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:18 PM on August 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
Oh, and for the question of how are right wingers responding? Last I read, they're so in love with their messianic cult leader that this is driving more of them away from other republican options.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:18 PM on August 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
This is something that struck me about the Mar-a-Lago indictment as well: these indictments are very readable and polemic. Smith definitely realizes he's crafting historical documents.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:25 PM on August 1, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 3:25 PM on August 1, 2023 [28 favorites]
All things considered, especially with the way he's inciting his followers, I'd say this should be a no-bail situation.
posted by azpenguin at 3:34 PM on August 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by azpenguin at 3:34 PM on August 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
We will now have an election where one candidate openly states that, if elected, he will have his opponent thrown in jail, and that, if not elected, his opponent will have HIM thrown in jail.
And all I can think of is how many past elections probably should have been run with those stakes.
(Obligatory /hamburger)
posted by delfin at 3:35 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
And all I can think of is how many past elections probably should have been run with those stakes.
(Obligatory /hamburger)
posted by delfin at 3:35 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
i really have to wonder how they're going to seat an impartial jury
posted by pyramid termite at 3:36 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 3:36 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm curious to hear from anyone with Trump voting or Trump leaning friends/relatives. Will anything sway them at this point? Would a conviction do it?
No. My folks voted for him, twice. Even after I pointed out that voting for a Republican, especially him, is an act of violence against LGBTQ+ people like me.
posted by xedrik at 3:36 PM on August 1, 2023 [32 favorites]
No. My folks voted for him, twice. Even after I pointed out that voting for a Republican, especially him, is an act of violence against LGBTQ+ people like me.
posted by xedrik at 3:36 PM on August 1, 2023 [32 favorites]
We will now have an election where one candidate openly states that, if elected, he will have his opponent thrown in jail, and that, if not elected, his opponent will have HIM thrown in jail.Wasn't 2016 already this way? "Lock her up" and deep state witch hunt?
posted by Flunkie at 3:37 PM on August 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
I just read the whole 45 pages from cover to cover when I should have been making dinner. The bits that really stuck out for me were the Republican governors' statements refusing to lie for TFG, and the single stark paragraph
123. At 3:41 a.m. on January 7, as President of the Senate, the Vice President announced the certified results of the 2020 presidential election in favour of Biden.posted by scruss at 3:38 PM on August 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
His fans don’t think he lost so they don’t think anything he did to stay in office was a crime. They don’t think the documents are anything worse than Hillary’s email server. They know liberals hate Trump and they ignore what you say, or actually like him because liberals hate him.
This won’t matter. Trump will he the nominee and will win the 2024 election and these cases will vanish like a fart in the wind. It’s going to he absolutely horrible.
Sure there is a long shot chance that some teenagers at an exclusive private boarding school will find a magical solution to all this; but I’m not counting on it despite of the regard I hold for the aging headmaster who created that plan.
posted by interogative mood at 3:39 PM on August 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
This won’t matter. Trump will he the nominee and will win the 2024 election and these cases will vanish like a fart in the wind. It’s going to he absolutely horrible.
Sure there is a long shot chance that some teenagers at an exclusive private boarding school will find a magical solution to all this; but I’m not counting on it despite of the regard I hold for the aging headmaster who created that plan.
posted by interogative mood at 3:39 PM on August 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
I'm curious to hear from anyone with Trump voting or Trump leaning friends/relatives. Will anything sway them at this point? Would a conviction do it?
This sort of a null as I and the other parties involved are Canadian* but I know a couple of people who are totally rah-rah for 45 and even a day or two ago were confidently predicting that this is going to be the week when Biden is impeached, removed from office, and Orange Julius will be reinstated**. They are all very quiet today.
*J. Bartlet Brebner once observed, "Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States."
** Because that's how it works, right? Like when Nixon resigned and the body of LBJ was disinterred and reinstalled in the Oval Office. That was a weird summer, wasn't it?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:47 PM on August 1, 2023 [27 favorites]
This sort of a null as I and the other parties involved are Canadian* but I know a couple of people who are totally rah-rah for 45 and even a day or two ago were confidently predicting that this is going to be the week when Biden is impeached, removed from office, and Orange Julius will be reinstated**. They are all very quiet today.
*J. Bartlet Brebner once observed, "Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States."
** Because that's how it works, right? Like when Nixon resigned and the body of LBJ was disinterred and reinstalled in the Oval Office. That was a weird summer, wasn't it?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:47 PM on August 1, 2023 [27 favorites]
Yet another gift for him.
posted by Optamystic at 3:53 PM on August 1, 2023
posted by Optamystic at 3:53 PM on August 1, 2023
Barring some pretty unlikely sequences of events (e.g. a bunch of egotistical attention hogs uniting behind one non-Trump candidate, or institutions like the RNC exerting some power I'm not sure they even have any more), I think that Trump will be the nominee.
But the only way I think he wins the 2024 general election is if he steals it (to be clear, this is a very real possibility that people are working on as we speak).
Between Roe and student loans and culture-war stuff, I can only see Republicans doing worse with a lot of groups--women, college-educated people, minorities generally--that they're already not doing so great with.
Elections are about motivating your base, and about pulling in the undecideds that still exist. A Trump nomination will motivate Democrats, moderates, and never-Trumpers just as much as it will his base, and you can't keep saying 'what the hell do you have to lose?' when we've already lost so mcuh of it.
posted by box at 3:53 PM on August 1, 2023 [34 favorites]
But the only way I think he wins the 2024 general election is if he steals it (to be clear, this is a very real possibility that people are working on as we speak).
Between Roe and student loans and culture-war stuff, I can only see Republicans doing worse with a lot of groups--women, college-educated people, minorities generally--that they're already not doing so great with.
Elections are about motivating your base, and about pulling in the undecideds that still exist. A Trump nomination will motivate Democrats, moderates, and never-Trumpers just as much as it will his base, and you can't keep saying 'what the hell do you have to lose?' when we've already lost so mcuh of it.
posted by box at 3:53 PM on August 1, 2023 [34 favorites]
Looks like somebody's in hot soup!
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 3:54 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 3:54 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
It'll be operatic, a cliffhanger that hollywood would be embarrassed to write.
November 3 2024 the jury brings a sentence of sedition.
November 4 2024 Trump is elected by 1000 vote margin.
November 5 2024 the appeal is entered at the district court level.
January 19 2025 every eye and ear is watching the US Supreme Court's decision.
posted by sammyo at 3:55 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
November 3 2024 the jury brings a sentence of sedition.
November 4 2024 Trump is elected by 1000 vote margin.
November 5 2024 the appeal is entered at the district court level.
January 19 2025 every eye and ear is watching the US Supreme Court's decision.
posted by sammyo at 3:55 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
will win the 2024 election and these cases will vanish
Not the NY case, and not the (probable) GA case.
posted by nobody at 3:56 PM on August 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
Not the NY case, and not the (probable) GA case.
posted by nobody at 3:56 PM on August 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
But the only way I think he wins the 2024 general election is if he steals it (to be clear, this is a very real possibility that people are working on as we speak).
Between Roe and student loans and culture-war stuff, I can only see Republicans doing worse with a lot of groups--women, college-educated people, minorities generally--that they're already not doing so great with.
I'm inclined to agree. There's just no way that Trump in 2023/2024 is more popular than he was the last two times that he lost the popular vote. I just don't see it. But like during the first go-around, the Electoral College is not a friend to democracy, and as in 2020, the Republican Party is an active and plotting enemy to it.
posted by kensington314 at 3:56 PM on August 1, 2023 [48 favorites]
Between Roe and student loans and culture-war stuff, I can only see Republicans doing worse with a lot of groups--women, college-educated people, minorities generally--that they're already not doing so great with.
I'm inclined to agree. There's just no way that Trump in 2023/2024 is more popular than he was the last two times that he lost the popular vote. I just don't see it. But like during the first go-around, the Electoral College is not a friend to democracy, and as in 2020, the Republican Party is an active and plotting enemy to it.
posted by kensington314 at 3:56 PM on August 1, 2023 [48 favorites]
The USA is absolutely heading toward a timeline where Daily News headline writers get to splash "White House Arrest" on the front page.
posted by swift at 3:59 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by swift at 3:59 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't think he'll win in 2024, but the fact is he's by far the leader for the GOP nom (and at this point I genuinely can't tell if the fact that I think this indictment will only increase his lead is cynical of me or else realistic of me), and anyone with one of the two big party noms has a real chance. Plus, at least one recent poll shows Biden vs. Trump all tied up at 43% each. Throw in the wackiness of the EC on top of all that, and I don't think we're clearly out of the woods.
posted by Flunkie at 4:00 PM on August 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 4:00 PM on August 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
I’m holding onto my glee pending conviction. I’ve had enough disappointment for one lifetime.
posted by tommasz at 4:01 PM on August 1, 2023 [29 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 4:01 PM on August 1, 2023 [29 favorites]
Co-conspirator 3 is either Sydney Powell or Lin Wood.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 4:02 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 4:02 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Between Roe and student loans and culture-war stuff, I can only see Republicans doing worse with a lot of groups--women, college-educated people, minorities generally--that they're already not doing so great with.
And if the stock market keeps doing well, white retirees will be relatively demotivated to vote. Its harder to believe the economy is in the toilet when your 401k is booming.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:04 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
And if the stock market keeps doing well, white retirees will be relatively demotivated to vote. Its harder to believe the economy is in the toilet when your 401k is booming.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:04 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Throw in the wackiness of the EC on top of all that, and I don't think we're clearly out of the woods.
We're definitely in the woods.
I’m holding onto my glee pending conviction. I’ve had enough disappointment for one lifetime.
But I'm holding on to both sentiments for now.
posted by kensington314 at 4:04 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
We're definitely in the woods.
I’m holding onto my glee pending conviction. I’ve had enough disappointment for one lifetime.
But I'm holding on to both sentiments for now.
posted by kensington314 at 4:04 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
This just goes to show the level of corruption within the United States: the average number of indictments per president just keeps going up and up week after week while the number of presidents has stayed level for like at least three months.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 4:05 PM on August 1, 2023 [44 favorites]
posted by MonsieurPEB at 4:05 PM on August 1, 2023 [44 favorites]
I'm curious to hear from anyone with Trump voting or Trump leaning friends/relatives. Will anything sway them at this point? Would a conviction do it?
If you want some actual data, the NY Times just did a report on Trump's base and the state of Republican voters in general. Some relevant tidbits:
posted by star gentle uterus at 4:07 PM on August 1, 2023 [30 favorites]
If you want some actual data, the NY Times just did a report on Trump's base and the state of Republican voters in general. Some relevant tidbits:
In the half century of modern presidential primaries, no candidate who led his or her nearest rival by at least 20 points at this stage has ever lost a party nomination.and (emphasis added)
Today, Donald J. Trump’s lead over Ron DeSantis is nearly twice as large: 37 points, according to a New York Times/Siena College poll of the likely Republican primary electorate released Monday morning.
As defined here, members of Mr. Trump’s MAGA base represent 37 percent of the Republican electorate. They “strongly” support him in the Republican primary and have a “very favorable” view of him.As noted above, his base seems to believe that the charges are liberal bullshit and don't care. The piece goes into the various factions of Republican voters and notes that Trump's base is large but not a majority, though given his huge lead and that strong base it's extraordinarily unlikely that some other candidate is going to be able to unite the persuadable moderates and Never-Trumpers into a bloc that can beat him.
The MAGA base doesn’t support Mr. Trump in spite of his flaws. It supports him because it doesn’t seem to believe he has flaws.
Zero percent — not a single one of the 319 respondents in this MAGA category — said he had committed serious federal crimes. A mere 2 percent said he “did something wrong” in his handling of classified documents. More than 90 percent said Republicans needed to stand behind him in the face of the investigations.
posted by star gentle uterus at 4:07 PM on August 1, 2023 [30 favorites]
lawfare is talking about it live, if you like informed talking heads talking
posted by BungaDunga at 4:08 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 4:08 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Onion: Trump Campaign Worried There Might Not Be Enough Indictments To Meet All Fundraising Goals
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:11 PM on August 1, 2023 [42 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:11 PM on August 1, 2023 [42 favorites]
He is absolutely hoping to be Grover Cleveland II: Electric Boogaloo*, but Cleveland actually won the popular vote three times and I see no way 45 doesn't lose it three times.
*For normal people not as hung up as I on US presidential history, Cleveland was the 22nd and 24th president, having lost the electoral vote in 1888 to Benjamin Harrison but having run again in 1892 and won, a feat no one else has accomplished.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:13 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
*For normal people not as hung up as I on US presidential history, Cleveland was the 22nd and 24th president, having lost the electoral vote in 1888 to Benjamin Harrison but having run again in 1892 and won, a feat no one else has accomplished.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:13 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
There is still one set expected to give us the full trilogy
Tetralogy, right? NY, GA, and two federal.
Jack Smith is also investigating whether Trump incited January 6th, so there could technically be a third out of him.
posted by BungaDunga at 4:13 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Tetralogy, right? NY, GA, and two federal.
Jack Smith is also investigating whether Trump incited January 6th, so there could technically be a third out of him.
posted by BungaDunga at 4:13 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
There's just no way that Trump in 2023/2024 is more popular than he was the last two times that he lost the popular vote.
Looking at it another way, he did win without winning the popular vote once. Frankly, liberals really need to get over this popular vote idea. As long as the Electoral College exists it literally doesn't matter with regard to who becomes President.
Not to be too doom and gloom, but Biden's victory was not a landslide resounding rejection of Trump, and people did confidently declare that there was no way this clown could win the first time.
posted by star gentle uterus at 4:13 PM on August 1, 2023 [39 favorites]
Looking at it another way, he did win without winning the popular vote once. Frankly, liberals really need to get over this popular vote idea. As long as the Electoral College exists it literally doesn't matter with regard to who becomes President.
Not to be too doom and gloom, but Biden's victory was not a landslide resounding rejection of Trump, and people did confidently declare that there was no way this clown could win the first time.
posted by star gentle uterus at 4:13 PM on August 1, 2023 [39 favorites]
Six co-conspirators. Probably Giuliani, Eastman, who else?
How many of them are cooperating?
I like the theory that they are unnamed to give them one more chance to cooperate, before being named and charged.
Between Roe and student loans and culture-war stuff, I can only see Republicans doing worse with a lot of groups--women, college-educated people, minorities generally--that they're already not doing so great with.
College-educated have skewed very D, but the GOP has been making gains in minority voters (particularly men) and I won't be surprised to see that trend continue.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:15 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
How many of them are cooperating?
I like the theory that they are unnamed to give them one more chance to cooperate, before being named and charged.
Between Roe and student loans and culture-war stuff, I can only see Republicans doing worse with a lot of groups--women, college-educated people, minorities generally--that they're already not doing so great with.
College-educated have skewed very D, but the GOP has been making gains in minority voters (particularly men) and I won't be surprised to see that trend continue.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:15 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Jack Smith is also investigating whether Trump incited January 6th, so there could technically be a third out of him.
Is that separate from counts 2 and 3 in this indictment?
posted by mr_roboto at 4:18 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is that separate from counts 2 and 3 in this indictment?
posted by mr_roboto at 4:18 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is the one I've been waiting for. Damn it to hell, I hope they nail this traitor.
posted by bluesky43 at 4:22 PM on August 1, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 4:22 PM on August 1, 2023 [21 favorites]
Is that separate from counts 2 and 3 in this indictment?
Technically, probably? But there's enough in there about Trump's speech during January 6th that probably there's not going to be another indictment that's just about Trump directly egging the insurgents on.
posted by BungaDunga at 4:24 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Technically, probably? But there's enough in there about Trump's speech during January 6th that probably there's not going to be another indictment that's just about Trump directly egging the insurgents on.
posted by BungaDunga at 4:24 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Looking at it another way, he did win without winning the popular vote once. Frankly, liberals really need to get over this popular vote idea. As long as the Electoral College exists it literally doesn't matter with regard to who becomes President.
I guess that's sort of what I was saying? In an election where it's going to be won by tens of thousands of votes in a few swing states, we're always in a danger zone where he "steals it," as box said, if you define that broadly as either legally through the EC or through outright fraud and dubious state-level electioneering, or a combination.
posted by kensington314 at 4:25 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
I guess that's sort of what I was saying? In an election where it's going to be won by tens of thousands of votes in a few swing states, we're always in a danger zone where he "steals it," as box said, if you define that broadly as either legally through the EC or through outright fraud and dubious state-level electioneering, or a combination.
posted by kensington314 at 4:25 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
where he "steals it," as box said, if you define that broadly as either legally through the EC
But that's my point: a mindset where legally winning the Electoral College is stealing the election is a guaranteed loser. You don't run an election with the system you wish we had, you run it with the system that exists. Otherwise, you end up crying about the popular vote while your opponent is sworn in. The Republicans get this but liberals weirdly don't.
posted by star gentle uterus at 4:29 PM on August 1, 2023 [24 favorites]
But that's my point: a mindset where legally winning the Electoral College is stealing the election is a guaranteed loser. You don't run an election with the system you wish we had, you run it with the system that exists. Otherwise, you end up crying about the popular vote while your opponent is sworn in. The Republicans get this but liberals weirdly don't.
posted by star gentle uterus at 4:29 PM on August 1, 2023 [24 favorites]
I'm curious to hear from anyone with Trump voting or Trump leaning friends/relatives. Will anything sway them at this point? Would a conviction do it?
Watching this play out in my family will be interesting. My parents voted for him, and several times I've come back to them with "surely this" stuff. Increasingly, rather than support him, they say "why are you bringing him up? he's not President. Biden [blah blah blah]".
I suspect I'll never know for sure if they vote for him again this time. I don't think they'd like to admit it.
posted by gurple at 4:29 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Watching this play out in my family will be interesting. My parents voted for him, and several times I've come back to them with "surely this" stuff. Increasingly, rather than support him, they say "why are you bringing him up? he's not President. Biden [blah blah blah]".
I suspect I'll never know for sure if they vote for him again this time. I don't think they'd like to admit it.
posted by gurple at 4:29 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
The NYTimes has an annotated version of the indictment that is very good.
posted by bluesky43 at 4:30 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 4:30 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
The Republicans get this but liberals weirdly don't.
I think those of us on the broad left, from liberals to leftists, just sort of don't know what to do about it? You have a structural situation where you have to win the popular vote by like five percent or whatever, and a Democratic Party coalition where there's two or more warring camps probably none of which quite has it right how to, say, get Florida back.
I do think that having a candidate facing a whole-ass handful of major felony trials has got to help on the margins though. Not for Florida but for whatever swing states aren't totally lost. Like if several ongoing trials don't swing a hundred thousand votes or two, I know for my part, personally, my brain will implode.
posted by kensington314 at 4:34 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think those of us on the broad left, from liberals to leftists, just sort of don't know what to do about it? You have a structural situation where you have to win the popular vote by like five percent or whatever, and a Democratic Party coalition where there's two or more warring camps probably none of which quite has it right how to, say, get Florida back.
I do think that having a candidate facing a whole-ass handful of major felony trials has got to help on the margins though. Not for Florida but for whatever swing states aren't totally lost. Like if several ongoing trials don't swing a hundred thousand votes or two, I know for my part, personally, my brain will implode.
posted by kensington314 at 4:34 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
The MAGA base doesn’t support Mr. Trump in spite of his flaws. It supports him because it doesn’t seem to believe he has flaws.
He’s their kind of macho.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:34 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
He’s their kind of macho.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:34 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
But that's my point: a mindset where legally winning the Electoral College is stealing the election is a guaranteed loser. You don't run an election with the system you wish we had, you run it with the system that exists. Otherwise, you end up crying about the popular vote while your opponent is sworn in. The Republicans get this but liberals weirdly don't.
Biden's actual margin of victory was what, less than 60,000 votes between Michigan, Arizona, and Georgia? Maybe less than half that number?
People forget that the last election was basically a tie. With a crashing economy. In a purposefully bungled pandemic. After AT LEAST one scandal every day for three and three quarter years. And the insufferable racist dogshit he spewed every time he opened his mouth. AND the parade of dignity wraiths that tried to ride the bull and sailed off into the sunset with whatever their "we tried and died" book deals could net them.
We don't need to motivate California. We need to dramatically motivate democrats in Michigan, Georgia, Arizona, and Wisconsin.
posted by Slackermagee at 4:36 PM on August 1, 2023 [52 favorites]
Biden's actual margin of victory was what, less than 60,000 votes between Michigan, Arizona, and Georgia? Maybe less than half that number?
People forget that the last election was basically a tie. With a crashing economy. In a purposefully bungled pandemic. After AT LEAST one scandal every day for three and three quarter years. And the insufferable racist dogshit he spewed every time he opened his mouth. AND the parade of dignity wraiths that tried to ride the bull and sailed off into the sunset with whatever their "we tried and died" book deals could net them.
We don't need to motivate California. We need to dramatically motivate democrats in Michigan, Georgia, Arizona, and Wisconsin.
posted by Slackermagee at 4:36 PM on August 1, 2023 [52 favorites]
We need to dramatically motivate democrats in Michigan, Georgia, Arizona, and Wisconsin.
And New Mexico again.
Honest question, no snark: Have we given up completely on Ohio and NC?
posted by kensington314 at 4:40 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
And New Mexico again.
Honest question, no snark: Have we given up completely on Ohio and NC?
posted by kensington314 at 4:40 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Biden's actual margin of victory was what, less than 60,000 votes
I don't know if popular vote is what we want to use, given well: Hillary.
posted by alex_skazat at 4:42 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know if popular vote is what we want to use, given well: Hillary.
posted by alex_skazat at 4:42 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know if popular vote is what we want to use, given well: Hillary.
Biden's popular vote margin was a lot bigger; the 60,000 are his margin in the swing states that won him the EC.
posted by BungaDunga at 4:46 PM on August 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
Biden's popular vote margin was a lot bigger; the 60,000 are his margin in the swing states that won him the EC.
posted by BungaDunga at 4:46 PM on August 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
Will anything sway them at this point? Would a conviction do it?
Trump dropped 10 points in a survey of republicans on whether or not he committed a crime. Only 40% think he did not, down from 50%. It s already doing it.
My rush limbaugh republican family want him to "go away."
This does affect the general election, and failing to prosecute him is election interference.
posted by eustatic at 4:48 PM on August 1, 2023 [23 favorites]
Trump dropped 10 points in a survey of republicans on whether or not he committed a crime. Only 40% think he did not, down from 50%. It s already doing it.
My rush limbaugh republican family want him to "go away."
This does affect the general election, and failing to prosecute him is election interference.
posted by eustatic at 4:48 PM on August 1, 2023 [23 favorites]
Have we given up completely on Ohio and NC?
Ohio's a lost cause. I'm worried that Sharrod Brown is going to have a tough time getting re-elected. NC has a Dem governor; it's winnable.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:48 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ohio's a lost cause. I'm worried that Sharrod Brown is going to have a tough time getting re-elected. NC has a Dem governor; it's winnable.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:48 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
~44,000 votes (source) was Biden's margin to hold the Electoral College.
His popular vote margin was 7,059,526 votes.
posted by mbrubeck at 4:52 PM on August 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
His popular vote margin was 7,059,526 votes.
posted by mbrubeck at 4:52 PM on August 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
I think those of us on the broad left, from liberals to leftists, just sort of don't know what to do about it.
Move to red states. Tactic hundreds of years old.
posted by eustatic at 4:53 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Move to red states. Tactic hundreds of years old.
posted by eustatic at 4:53 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Move to red states. Tactic hundreds of years old.
Been there, done that. Then cis people told me I was a moron not worth fighting for because I lived in Texas.
posted by hoyland at 4:57 PM on August 1, 2023 [81 favorites]
Been there, done that. Then cis people told me I was a moron not worth fighting for because I lived in Texas.
posted by hoyland at 4:57 PM on August 1, 2023 [81 favorites]
Trump dropped 10 points in a survey of republicans on whether or not he committed a crime. Only 40% think he did not, down from 50%. It s already doing it.
My rush limbaugh republican family want him to "go away."
If that NYT report I linked above is right, he already has 37% of Republican voters behind him no matter what. About 25% of Republicans will never vote for him, but another 37% are in the "persuadable middle".
So he'd just need to peel off a little over 13% of that chunk to get the nomination. On the other side, who is there in the field who could both prevent Trump from peeling off enough middle voters while uniting everyone else under them? So far DeSantis, the most realistic challenger, isn't anywhere near doing it. Chris Christie, Tim Scott, Mike Pence, Nikki Haley, or Vivek Ramaswamy? Very unlikely.
posted by star gentle uterus at 4:59 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
My rush limbaugh republican family want him to "go away."
If that NYT report I linked above is right, he already has 37% of Republican voters behind him no matter what. About 25% of Republicans will never vote for him, but another 37% are in the "persuadable middle".
So he'd just need to peel off a little over 13% of that chunk to get the nomination. On the other side, who is there in the field who could both prevent Trump from peeling off enough middle voters while uniting everyone else under them? So far DeSantis, the most realistic challenger, isn't anywhere near doing it. Chris Christie, Tim Scott, Mike Pence, Nikki Haley, or Vivek Ramaswamy? Very unlikely.
posted by star gentle uterus at 4:59 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the other side, who is there in the field who could both prevent Trump from peeling off enough middle voters while uniting everyone else under them?
This is all too close for comfort--anyone on the ballot is close enough to 50/50 odds that it's kind of unthinkable. But I still think Trump is also the most advantageous candidate for Biden.
posted by kensington314 at 5:20 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is all too close for comfort--anyone on the ballot is close enough to 50/50 odds that it's kind of unthinkable. But I still think Trump is also the most advantageous candidate for Biden.
posted by kensington314 at 5:20 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was kinda hoping that DeSantis and Trump would spend the next 12 months covering each other in dirt and splitting the party vote, but the former is already showing signs of collapse.
posted by meowzilla at 5:21 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 5:21 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was hoping Trump would run for governor of Florida.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:22 PM on August 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 5:22 PM on August 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
One large chunk of the American voting public believes in full sincerity that Donald Trump is both a threat and a menace, that the crimes that he has been indicted on and indicted on and indicted on and will soon be indicted on are legitimate, and that he has no business remaining out of jail, let alone even visiting the White House on its daily tour.
One large chunk of the American voting public believes in full sincerity that Donald Trump is a lone warrior fighting a global criminal conspiracy of warmongers, pedophiles, Communists and Satanists, that the crimes he is being accused of are complete nonsense and part of the conspiracy to deny him his rightful second term, and that Joe Biden and his entire family (plus 95% of all bureaucrats and politicians currently in office) need to be behind bars yesterday so that Real Americans(tm) can resume full and unquestioned control.
Anyone who was in the first camp in 2020 is in the first camp in 2023, and the same goes for the second camp. There is not a single soul capable of being persuaded in either camp, because they have faith in the news reports, television hosts, pundit commentary, live footage and such that they choose to accept as the truth.
We watched Trumpoids storm the Capitol live on television on J6 and saw, with our own eyes, an angry mob disrupting the transfer of power by force of numbers. They watched Trumpoids storm the Capitol live on television on J6 and saw, with their own eyes, a weaponless and peaceful and righteous protest against a stolen election, the Feds and Antifa and BLM and Democrats and George Soros and Ray Epps and the Reverse Vampires all colluding to frame Trump and his followers as criminals, and that's that. They reject reality and substitute the one that is blasted at them daily.
So what is to come?
If there is a single person in the so-called middle who can watch Trump face nearly a hundred felony counts, hear certain conservative pundits note that his best chance might be "jury nullification, frankly" based on the available evidence, and still somehow decide that Trump would be a better POTUS than Biden under any circumstances, they're not in the middle; they're in the second camp, and they've been in the second camp, and they will always be in the second camp. I have no idea on earth how an 'impartial' jury can ever be found for any of these indictments. There are no bystanders any more.
And even if a tenth of the allegations around the Bidens persist by next fall and prove to have any weight behind them, Joe still has one major advantage over Donald that carried him to victory in 2020 and will do it again, if he's healthy enough to run, in 2024.
And that is that he is not Donald Trump.
That's enough to get my vote.
posted by delfin at 5:26 PM on August 1, 2023 [39 favorites]
One large chunk of the American voting public believes in full sincerity that Donald Trump is a lone warrior fighting a global criminal conspiracy of warmongers, pedophiles, Communists and Satanists, that the crimes he is being accused of are complete nonsense and part of the conspiracy to deny him his rightful second term, and that Joe Biden and his entire family (plus 95% of all bureaucrats and politicians currently in office) need to be behind bars yesterday so that Real Americans(tm) can resume full and unquestioned control.
Anyone who was in the first camp in 2020 is in the first camp in 2023, and the same goes for the second camp. There is not a single soul capable of being persuaded in either camp, because they have faith in the news reports, television hosts, pundit commentary, live footage and such that they choose to accept as the truth.
We watched Trumpoids storm the Capitol live on television on J6 and saw, with our own eyes, an angry mob disrupting the transfer of power by force of numbers. They watched Trumpoids storm the Capitol live on television on J6 and saw, with their own eyes, a weaponless and peaceful and righteous protest against a stolen election, the Feds and Antifa and BLM and Democrats and George Soros and Ray Epps and the Reverse Vampires all colluding to frame Trump and his followers as criminals, and that's that. They reject reality and substitute the one that is blasted at them daily.
So what is to come?
If there is a single person in the so-called middle who can watch Trump face nearly a hundred felony counts, hear certain conservative pundits note that his best chance might be "jury nullification, frankly" based on the available evidence, and still somehow decide that Trump would be a better POTUS than Biden under any circumstances, they're not in the middle; they're in the second camp, and they've been in the second camp, and they will always be in the second camp. I have no idea on earth how an 'impartial' jury can ever be found for any of these indictments. There are no bystanders any more.
And even if a tenth of the allegations around the Bidens persist by next fall and prove to have any weight behind them, Joe still has one major advantage over Donald that carried him to victory in 2020 and will do it again, if he's healthy enough to run, in 2024.
And that is that he is not Donald Trump.
That's enough to get my vote.
posted by delfin at 5:26 PM on August 1, 2023 [39 favorites]
One of the big problems with predicting the results of the next presidential election (aside from the fact that knowing the future is hard) is that many of us vaguely tend to think:
* the US is 50% Democrats and 50% Republicans (reinforced by the fact that the last election was so close; in the popular vote, Biden beat The Former Guy by 4.5% - Biden got 51.3%, TFG got 46.8%)
* the Former Guy's base is equal to all Republicans
Therefore, it's easy to think that approximately 50% of the people who vote in 2024 will vote for TFG, assuming (as seems highly likely) he's the nominee.
However:
* almost HALF of US voters consider themselves independents (Record number of Americans say they're politically independent, Axios)
* we've seen really surprising votes since Roe v. Wade was overturned. People who otherwise consider themselves Republicans have shown themselves willing to vote for abortion rights ... and with Republicans continuing to tie themselves to anti-choice laws and proposals, that trend might continue
* while a disturbing number of Republican voters do continue to support him, TFG's base does not equal the whole set of Republican voters:
And again: half the country is neither Republican nor Democrat, but independent.
And it would be fascinating to see what would happen if TFG were not actually able to complete a run - if he were in jail, or experienced a health issue. (Or ran out of money.) I can't imagine any of the other Republican candidates garnering a lot of enthusiastic votes, given TFG's lead over them all.
I absolutely urge every American to campaign like 2020: know that the worst case scenario is a very, very real possibility, and there are lots of people working to make it happen. But I think it's ALSO important to remember that well over half of voters do not make up that base we keep hearing about.
And one thing that could change some minds, even if indictments (or even convictions) don't, is for TFG to be seen as a loser. Losing to E. Jean Carroll couldn't have helped his image. Having hundreds of his most avid seditionist followers sent to jail isn't going to help, either. While the base doesn't believe he lost the last election, there are a lot of Republican-leaning independents and non-base Republicans who know he did. They know he's a loser. Casting your one and only vote for a loser is not something that's going to inspire that pretty darn large group of independent and non-base Republicans.
Campaign as hard as you can for Not TFG; but remember the press mostly reports on the base, and there are a whole lot of people who aren't part of the base.
ALSO: to get back on topic: regardless of how these charges affect the next election, I am grateful and proud that my country's institutions have brought these indictments. I look forward to seeing them prosecuted.
posted by kristi at 5:26 PM on August 1, 2023 [54 favorites]
* the US is 50% Democrats and 50% Republicans (reinforced by the fact that the last election was so close; in the popular vote, Biden beat The Former Guy by 4.5% - Biden got 51.3%, TFG got 46.8%)
* the Former Guy's base is equal to all Republicans
Therefore, it's easy to think that approximately 50% of the people who vote in 2024 will vote for TFG, assuming (as seems highly likely) he's the nominee.
However:
* almost HALF of US voters consider themselves independents (Record number of Americans say they're politically independent, Axios)
* we've seen really surprising votes since Roe v. Wade was overturned. People who otherwise consider themselves Republicans have shown themselves willing to vote for abortion rights ... and with Republicans continuing to tie themselves to anti-choice laws and proposals, that trend might continue
* while a disturbing number of Republican voters do continue to support him, TFG's base does not equal the whole set of Republican voters:
"As he seeks to mobilize his supporters against a potential indictment, his truly committed base isn't a majority of the GOP anymore," How big Trump's base is, as he tries to mobilize supporters, Washington PostDepending on who's reporting and what they're asking, somewhere between 28%-70% of Republican primary voters are enthusiastic about voting for TFG. Even at 70%, that's quite a lot of Republicans who are NOT excited about voting for him.
And again: half the country is neither Republican nor Democrat, but independent.
And it would be fascinating to see what would happen if TFG were not actually able to complete a run - if he were in jail, or experienced a health issue. (Or ran out of money.) I can't imagine any of the other Republican candidates garnering a lot of enthusiastic votes, given TFG's lead over them all.
I absolutely urge every American to campaign like 2020: know that the worst case scenario is a very, very real possibility, and there are lots of people working to make it happen. But I think it's ALSO important to remember that well over half of voters do not make up that base we keep hearing about.
And one thing that could change some minds, even if indictments (or even convictions) don't, is for TFG to be seen as a loser. Losing to E. Jean Carroll couldn't have helped his image. Having hundreds of his most avid seditionist followers sent to jail isn't going to help, either. While the base doesn't believe he lost the last election, there are a lot of Republican-leaning independents and non-base Republicans who know he did. They know he's a loser. Casting your one and only vote for a loser is not something that's going to inspire that pretty darn large group of independent and non-base Republicans.
Campaign as hard as you can for Not TFG; but remember the press mostly reports on the base, and there are a whole lot of people who aren't part of the base.
ALSO: to get back on topic: regardless of how these charges affect the next election, I am grateful and proud that my country's institutions have brought these indictments. I look forward to seeing them prosecuted.
posted by kristi at 5:26 PM on August 1, 2023 [54 favorites]
Really gotta get some presidentially unpardonable state charges going.
posted by duoshao at 5:27 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by duoshao at 5:27 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
From the NYT: A lawyer for Rudy Giuliani, the former New York City mayor who led many of Trump’s attempts to overturn his election defeat, acknowledged Tuesday night, “It appears that Mayor Giuliani is alleged to be co-conspirator No. 1.” The lawyer, Robert J. Costello, slammed the indictment, saying it amounted to “election interference” and “eviscerates the First Amendment.” He added, “Every fact that Mayor Giuliani possesses about this case establishes the good-faith basis President Donald Trump had for the action that he took during the two-month period charged in the indictment.”
posted by bluesky43 at 5:27 PM on August 1, 2023
posted by bluesky43 at 5:27 PM on August 1, 2023
Sabato’s Crystal Ball predicts that the only real “toss-up” states will be AZ, NV, WI, and GA.
This analysis points out that TFG would have to win all three of AZ, WI, and GA, whereas Biden could potentially clinch by winning any one.
It adds:
But his base alone can only get him the nomination. Ultimately it will come down to the collective will of non-GOP voters in each of those swing states.
The ones who ovulate, by the way, are still mad as hell. Don’t discount their fury.
posted by armeowda at 5:28 PM on August 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
This analysis points out that TFG would have to win all three of AZ, WI, and GA, whereas Biden could potentially clinch by winning any one.
It adds:
The map is pretty much independent of who the nominees are and is certainly independent of national polling. If Trump's legal problems lead to Ron DeSantis getting the GOP nomination and Biden dies and the Democrats nominate Gov. Gavin Newsom (D-CA), nothing changes. The Crystal Ball hasn't taken third parties like No Labels, the Green Party, and the Libertarian Party into account, but even that doesn't change the map, per se, although it could affect who wins the swing states.Separately, I’ll point out that the exact same tactics that keep TFG’s base so lovesick and devoted are the same ones that are turning off independent voters. A survey of “likely GOP voters” isn’t a useful barometer as the man’s legal troubles continue to multiply, because he built his base as a cult of personality.
But his base alone can only get him the nomination. Ultimately it will come down to the collective will of non-GOP voters in each of those swing states.
The ones who ovulate, by the way, are still mad as hell. Don’t discount their fury.
posted by armeowda at 5:28 PM on August 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
And again: half the country is neither Republican nor Democrat, but independent.It's been a fairly long time since I've seen actual stats on this, but at least back in (I think) the Bush II and Obama days, this was not really all that true in a practical sense: Yes, a lot of people were neither registered Republicans nor registered Democrats, but of those people, a lot were consistently straight ticket voters, if voters at all. Functional independents were somewhat rare.
posted by Flunkie at 5:33 PM on August 1, 2023 [25 favorites]
Are we already stressing about the next election? I understand… really I do, but I’m going to celebrate. Because with all the bad news, I need something to be happy about.
Then I’m going to call the local Democratic Progressive organization to see how I can help out.
posted by jabo at 5:33 PM on August 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
Then I’m going to call the local Democratic Progressive organization to see how I can help out.
posted by jabo at 5:33 PM on August 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
The ones who ovulate, by the way, are still mad as hell. Don’t discount their fury.
posted by armeowda at 5:28 PM
This. Look at what's happening in Ohio. and what happened in the governor's race in Michigan.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:35 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by armeowda at 5:28 PM
This. Look at what's happening in Ohio. and what happened in the governor's race in Michigan.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:35 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
And again: half the country is neither Republican nor Democrat, but independent.
Perhaps they'll even vote one day!
posted by star gentle uterus at 5:38 PM on August 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
Perhaps they'll even vote one day!
posted by star gentle uterus at 5:38 PM on August 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
Yes American elections 201 is there are no swing voters and everything is about turnout.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:56 PM on August 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:56 PM on August 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
Does anyone know if anything can be read into someone being an unindicted co-conspirator? Does it imply anything? That they're cooperating? That they're next?
posted by Mavri at 6:02 PM on August 1, 2023
posted by Mavri at 6:02 PM on August 1, 2023
Perhaps they'll even vote one day!
This is a fun punchline, I guess, but it ignores the other 99% of the comment it purports to engage with. A lot of well-researched context was provided.
Notice, too, that back in 2020 only about a third of registered voters were independent, so since then, it would appear that a lot of voters have either registered for the first time and/or changed their party affiliation. (And yes, a lot of reliable party-affiliated voters have since died.)
posted by armeowda at 6:02 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is a fun punchline, I guess, but it ignores the other 99% of the comment it purports to engage with. A lot of well-researched context was provided.
Notice, too, that back in 2020 only about a third of registered voters were independent, so since then, it would appear that a lot of voters have either registered for the first time and/or changed their party affiliation. (And yes, a lot of reliable party-affiliated voters have since died.)
posted by armeowda at 6:02 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
All publicity seems to be good publicity for him. Moreover, he's convinced a great number of people that he's innocent and being wrongfully martyred at the hands of the woke/fake-news/commie/snowflake/feminist/etc. left, or some such nonsense...how does one counter nonsense once facts are rendered meaningless?
Trump Crushing DeSantis and G.O.P. Rivals, Times/Siena Poll Finds
The twice-indicted former president leads across nearly every category and region, as primary voters wave off concerns about his escalating legal jeopardy. (nytimes)
posted by nikoniko at 6:06 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Trump Crushing DeSantis and G.O.P. Rivals, Times/Siena Poll Finds
The twice-indicted former president leads across nearly every category and region, as primary voters wave off concerns about his escalating legal jeopardy. (nytimes)
posted by nikoniko at 6:06 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
My feelings about this
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace
ROU Xenophobe is that you?
posted by GCU Experiencing A Significant Gravitas Shortfall at 6:08 PM on August 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace
ROU Xenophobe is that you?
posted by GCU Experiencing A Significant Gravitas Shortfall at 6:08 PM on August 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
Independent does not mean centrist.
I mean, it can, in some cases. But it includes rare individuals who are indeed centrists who judge each individual candidate in a vacuum, people who are ardently progressive and feel that the Democrats rarely represent their interests, people who feel that modern Republicans are do-nothing squishy liberals afraid to take REAL ACTION against the Commies and the degenerates, "throw them all out" disgruntled types, Republicans who hesitate to get behind Trump or similarly obvious screeching liabilities but will otherwise vote straight R right down the ballot, and any other permutation you can think of.
I've voiced my opinion on there being a static/dynamic axis as well as a left/center/right axis to modern politics. Those who want to tweak the existing system in their favor versus those who want far more sweeping changes. This is how we got people who felt favorably about both Bernie and Trump without an explanatory major head injury, for instance. I tend to view anyone who self-identifies as Independent as far more likely to be dynamic than static -- refusing to identify with one party or the other because it either goes too far or doesn't go far enough on their pet issues. But that doesn't mean that their D/R vote will not be predictable, if it comes down to a two-horse race.
posted by delfin at 6:12 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mean, it can, in some cases. But it includes rare individuals who are indeed centrists who judge each individual candidate in a vacuum, people who are ardently progressive and feel that the Democrats rarely represent their interests, people who feel that modern Republicans are do-nothing squishy liberals afraid to take REAL ACTION against the Commies and the degenerates, "throw them all out" disgruntled types, Republicans who hesitate to get behind Trump or similarly obvious screeching liabilities but will otherwise vote straight R right down the ballot, and any other permutation you can think of.
I've voiced my opinion on there being a static/dynamic axis as well as a left/center/right axis to modern politics. Those who want to tweak the existing system in their favor versus those who want far more sweeping changes. This is how we got people who felt favorably about both Bernie and Trump without an explanatory major head injury, for instance. I tend to view anyone who self-identifies as Independent as far more likely to be dynamic than static -- refusing to identify with one party or the other because it either goes too far or doesn't go far enough on their pet issues. But that doesn't mean that their D/R vote will not be predictable, if it comes down to a two-horse race.
posted by delfin at 6:12 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
And again: half the country is neither Republican nor Democrat, but independent.2022 election:
Perhaps they'll even vote one day!
According to the Edison Research preliminary exit polls, independents were without question the most critical voter group in this election. In fact, they made up 31 percent of the electorate, the largest percentage going back as far as the 1980 election.It was all about the independents, again, Rollcall, Nov. 16 2022
...
What makes 2022 different is the fact that nationally, independents broke with past election behavior by voting for the party holding the White House by a slim margin of 49 percent to 47 percent, at least in preliminary results. This was despite having an unfavorable view of President Joe Biden, at 37 percent favorable to 60 percent unfavorable.
2020 election:
Independent voters, however, made a dramatic and history-changing change: After voting for Trump by a 4-percentage-point margin in 2016, they favored Biden at the ballot box last year by a 13-point margin, with 54% of self-identified independents voting for the Democrat and 41%, for the defeated incumbent.Independents Exercise Increasing Control Over Democratic, Republican Candidates, US News & World Report
Looks like 26% of the voters in the 2020 election were independent, and they voted 54% for Biden vs 41% for his opponent. For all voters in that election, political philosophy was only 24% liberal; it was 38% moderate and 38% conservative. Source:
How Groups Voted in 2020, Roper Center, Cornell
So, looks like they vote plenty.
(One interesting thing about the growth of independents: in states with automatic voter registration, newly eligible voters get registered as long as long as they don't opt out - so they often don't have to pick a party. They're registered as independent by default. They're not necessarily making a statement.)
posted by kristi at 6:14 PM on August 1, 2023 [29 favorites]
On topic, and just to make sure I'm not reading this wrong: we now have charges pending in a court run by a real judge not a Trump cultist like Cannon, right? Judge Chukan seems to be someone who isn't going to fuck around but I'm so used to gleeful 'this time we really got him' headlines that never pan out that I'm not sure I believe it.
posted by sotonohito at 6:41 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 6:41 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
(One interesting thing about the growth of independents: in states with automatic voter registration, newly eligible voters get registered as long as long as they don't opt out - so they often don't have to pick a party. They're registered as independent by default. They're not necessarily making a statement.)
There are also states with open primaries, where there's no advantage to part affiliation (I genuinely don't know if you could declare one in Illinois when I was registered there), and states with semi-closed primaries, where it's arguably advantageous to not register party affiliation. And then there's New York, which is the polar opposite and has stupidly early deadlines for changing parties. (It blows my mind how hostile voting in NY is. It's actually harder than when I lived in Texas.)
posted by hoyland at 6:55 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are also states with open primaries, where there's no advantage to part affiliation (I genuinely don't know if you could declare one in Illinois when I was registered there), and states with semi-closed primaries, where it's arguably advantageous to not register party affiliation. And then there's New York, which is the polar opposite and has stupidly early deadlines for changing parties. (It blows my mind how hostile voting in NY is. It's actually harder than when I lived in Texas.)
posted by hoyland at 6:55 PM on August 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's 4 AM here, and I was woken up by the dog being totally hysterical. First I was to sleepy to figure out wether it was a car or an animal he was barking at, so I don't know, by the time I got up it was gone. Anyway, this is good news. I've been worrying quite a bit about the upcoming election, and I still do. If Trump wins, American democracy is doomed, and so is Ukraine, and probably also Taiwan. And then who knows what happens?
However, the news linked below made me relax a bit. Trump is the reverse Midas: everything he touches turns into shit, and thus also the Republican Party.
State GOP party has just $53 in the bank with $334,000 in debt: FEC filing
The Minnesota GOP is not alone in its financial woes — a number of Republican state committees face a dire cash shortfall, including states that could be decisive in the 2024 presidential election.
A report earlier this month revealed the Arizona Republican Party has less than $50,000 in the bank, as its longtime donors bail on the party over its embrace of election conspiracy theories. And Roger Hudson, the deputy chief of staff of the Colorado Republican Party, claims that they are bankrupt and being evicted from their office space over lack of funds — although the party's official social media account denies this and claims Hudson is "spreading lies" because he is disgruntled the party admonished him for supporting transgender rights.
Perhaps the most high-profile case is the Michigan Republican Party, where recently-elected party chair Kristina Karamo has faced mounting criticism from fellow officers about the lack of transparency around party finances, causing escalating tensions that culminated in a physical brawl between two Michigan GOP officials last week that put one in the emergency room and could lead to criminal charges for the other.
posted by mumimor at 7:02 PM on August 1, 2023 [33 favorites]
However, the news linked below made me relax a bit. Trump is the reverse Midas: everything he touches turns into shit, and thus also the Republican Party.
State GOP party has just $53 in the bank with $334,000 in debt: FEC filing
The Minnesota GOP is not alone in its financial woes — a number of Republican state committees face a dire cash shortfall, including states that could be decisive in the 2024 presidential election.
A report earlier this month revealed the Arizona Republican Party has less than $50,000 in the bank, as its longtime donors bail on the party over its embrace of election conspiracy theories. And Roger Hudson, the deputy chief of staff of the Colorado Republican Party, claims that they are bankrupt and being evicted from their office space over lack of funds — although the party's official social media account denies this and claims Hudson is "spreading lies" because he is disgruntled the party admonished him for supporting transgender rights.
Perhaps the most high-profile case is the Michigan Republican Party, where recently-elected party chair Kristina Karamo has faced mounting criticism from fellow officers about the lack of transparency around party finances, causing escalating tensions that culminated in a physical brawl between two Michigan GOP officials last week that put one in the emergency room and could lead to criminal charges for the other.
posted by mumimor at 7:02 PM on August 1, 2023 [33 favorites]
Oh, and something else I've been wondering about: what about all the other crimes Trump committed while in office and before? We still don't know what was really in the Mueller report. And what about those Saudi deals? That man is guilty of so much, it is mind blowing.
posted by mumimor at 7:07 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 7:07 PM on August 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
If you are still in line to indict former President Donald Trump, REMAIN IN LINE.
posted by delfin at 7:10 PM on August 1, 2023 [59 favorites]
posted by delfin at 7:10 PM on August 1, 2023 [59 favorites]
Move to red states.
Big ask.
posted by Flunkie
I live in Louisiana and meet young people every week who move here to organize against Exxon. I don't pretend to understand it, but I understand it.
posted by eustatic at 7:10 PM on August 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
Big ask.
posted by Flunkie
I live in Louisiana and meet young people every week who move here to organize against Exxon. I don't pretend to understand it, but I understand it.
posted by eustatic at 7:10 PM on August 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
Copying from the CNN.com live feed:
"However, based on quotes in the indictment and other context, CNN can identify five of the six co-conspirators.
Co-Conspirator 1 is former Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani.
Co-Conspirator 2 is former Trump lawyer John Eastman.
Co-Conspirator 3 is former Trump lawyer Sidney Powell.
Co-Conspirator 4 is former Justice Department official Jeffrey Clark.
Co-Conspirator 5 is pro-Trump lawyer Kenneth Chesebro.
The identity of Co-Conspirator 6 is unclear. "
posted by soundguy99 at 7:11 PM on August 1, 2023 [21 favorites]
"However, based on quotes in the indictment and other context, CNN can identify five of the six co-conspirators.
Co-Conspirator 1 is former Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani.
Co-Conspirator 2 is former Trump lawyer John Eastman.
Co-Conspirator 3 is former Trump lawyer Sidney Powell.
Co-Conspirator 4 is former Justice Department official Jeffrey Clark.
Co-Conspirator 5 is pro-Trump lawyer Kenneth Chesebro.
The identity of Co-Conspirator 6 is unclear. "
posted by soundguy99 at 7:11 PM on August 1, 2023 [21 favorites]
Ah, crap: why didn't I name myself after a Culture ship? D'oh!
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:11 PM on August 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:11 PM on August 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
My rush limbaugh republican family want him to "go away."
There's so much of this magical, wishful thinking in the GOP right now. Like, probably half the senate and every single presidential candidate has hot bedtime fantasies imagining Trump "going away" and leaving his voters behind. He knows it, and he capitalizes on their weakness and unwillingness to push back.
We need to dramatically motivate democrats in Michigan, Georgia, Arizona, and Wisconsin.
And New Mexico again.
There was a recent article in the LA Times about how NM has shifted from swing state to fully in the D camp in just a few years. (It's not paywalled for me, but their stuff often is.) The headline sums up the article nicely: "Urbanization, Latinos and a far-right GOP. How New Mexico went from battleground to blue ."
posted by Dip Flash at 7:12 PM on August 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
There's so much of this magical, wishful thinking in the GOP right now. Like, probably half the senate and every single presidential candidate has hot bedtime fantasies imagining Trump "going away" and leaving his voters behind. He knows it, and he capitalizes on their weakness and unwillingness to push back.
We need to dramatically motivate democrats in Michigan, Georgia, Arizona, and Wisconsin.
And New Mexico again.
There was a recent article in the LA Times about how NM has shifted from swing state to fully in the D camp in just a few years. (It's not paywalled for me, but their stuff often is.) The headline sums up the article nicely: "Urbanization, Latinos and a far-right GOP. How New Mexico went from battleground to blue ."
posted by Dip Flash at 7:12 PM on August 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
On topic, and just to make sure I'm not reading this wrong: we now have charges pending in a court run by a real judge not a Trump cultist like Cannon, right? Judge Chukan seems to be someone who isn't going to fuck around but I'm so used to gleeful 'this time we really got him' headlines that never pan out that I'm not sure I believe it.I don't know anything about her besides the bit I've read today, but she's certainly not a Trump cultist. Some quotes from this AP News article:
- Chutkan has often has handed down prison sentences in Jan. 6, 2021, riot cases that are harsher than Justice Department prosecutors recommended.
- Other judges [in January 6 cases] typically have handed down sentences that are more lenient than those requested by prosecutors. Chutkan, however, has matched or exceeded prosecutors’ recommendations in 19 of her 38 sentences. In four of those cases, prosecutors weren’t seeking any jail time at all.
- "It has to be made clear that trying to violently overthrow the government, trying to stop the peaceful transition of power and assaulting law enforcement officers in that effort is going to be met with absolutely certain punishment," she said.
In the US, treason typically involves cooperating with a foreign power
I do get what you're trying to say, I really do. But the suspect in question has repeatedly given aid and comfort to Russia. His reasons are his own, but his acts of treason are numerous and self-evident — before, during and after his presidency — even if it may be easier to charge and try him for violations of other laws.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:16 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do get what you're trying to say, I really do. But the suspect in question has repeatedly given aid and comfort to Russia. His reasons are his own, but his acts of treason are numerous and self-evident — before, during and after his presidency — even if it may be easier to charge and try him for violations of other laws.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:16 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
But the suspect in question has repeatedly given aid and comfort to Russia
The US is not in a state of war with Russia.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:19 PM on August 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
The US is not in a state of war with Russia.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:19 PM on August 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
The identity of Co-Conspirator 6 is unclear
Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) or Virginia (AKA "Ginni") Thomas, perhaps?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:20 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) or Virginia (AKA "Ginni") Thomas, perhaps?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:20 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Looking at it another way, he did win without winning the popular vote once. Frankly, liberals really need to get over this popular vote idea. As long as the Electoral College exists it literally doesn't matter with regard to who becomes President.
Rumors of the death of the Interstate Voting Compact have been highly exaggerated.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:21 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Rumors of the death of the Interstate Voting Compact have been highly exaggerated.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:21 PM on August 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also a blue state to red state transplant, doing what i can now in GA.
Maddow did a bit last night on the state of State Republican parties and called out MN, CO, AZ, MI, GA, CA (and probably a few I'm forgetting?) for being in a near bankrupt or otherwise paralyzed condition - I wonder if it's due to a cash vacuum to one Orange stain.
posted by djseafood at 7:22 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Maddow did a bit last night on the state of State Republican parties and called out MN, CO, AZ, MI, GA, CA (and probably a few I'm forgetting?) for being in a near bankrupt or otherwise paralyzed condition - I wonder if it's due to a cash vacuum to one Orange stain.
posted by djseafood at 7:22 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
ROU Xenophobe is that you?
Yeah. The username was always a little iffy and after 2016 became poisonous enough that I kinda hated to see it.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:22 PM on August 1, 2023 [51 favorites]
Yeah. The username was always a little iffy and after 2016 became poisonous enough that I kinda hated to see it.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:22 PM on August 1, 2023 [51 favorites]
The identity of Co-Conspirator 6 is unclear. "
It's Jason Miller.
posted by jgirl at 7:25 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
No link to the cnn.com live feed because it's a moving target, but for clarification:
The identity of Co-Conspirator 6 is unclear. The indictment says they are “a political consultant who helped implement a plan to submit fraudulent slates of presidential electors to obstruct the certification proceeding.” The indictment also further ties this person to the fake elector slate in Pennsylvania.
(Personally, beats the heck out of me, no idea who this might be.)
posted by soundguy99 at 7:26 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
The identity of Co-Conspirator 6 is unclear. The indictment says they are “a political consultant who helped implement a plan to submit fraudulent slates of presidential electors to obstruct the certification proceeding.” The indictment also further ties this person to the fake elector slate in Pennsylvania.
(Personally, beats the heck out of me, no idea who this might be.)
posted by soundguy99 at 7:26 PM on August 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
emptywheel: The Structure of the Donald Trump Indictment
posted by ryanrs at 7:31 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 7:31 PM on August 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Congratulations on your repurposing to civilian(?) use, General Contact Unit Grace.
posted by Artw at 7:33 PM on August 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:33 PM on August 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
State GOP party has just $53 in the bank with $334,000 in debt: FEC filing
According to the latest filings with the Federal Election Commission, the Republican Party of Minnesota has just $53.81 in the bank
Here's how Rick Scott has blown millions meant for Republican Senate candidates
"I don't have any big answers about the NRSC's finances, but I can tell you they categorized thousands in expenses to Waffle House as 'air charter,'" said Dennis.
...
“If they were a corporation, the CEO would be fired and investigated,” said a national Republican consultant working on Senate races, according to the Washington Post. “The way this money has been burned, there needs to be an audit or investigation because we’re not gonna take the Senate now and this money has been squandered. It’s a rip-off.”
Judge throws out Donald Trump’s $475m ‘big lie’ defamation lawsuit against CNN
The suit, which the former president filed in October in U.S. District Court in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., alleged a “campaign of dissuasion in the form of libel and slander” that, Mr. Trump asserted, had escalated “as CNN fears the plaintiff will run for president in 2024.” The lawsuit said that the network’s use of the phrase “the big lie” in reference to Mr. Trump’s efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election was tantamount to comparing him to Adolf Hitler and Nazism.
Trump PAC Spent $40 Million On Legal Fees In First Half Of 2023: Reports
The $40.2 million in spending this year brings the PAC’s total outlay for legal fees to $56 million since Trump left the White House, with the prospect of much more to come.
Minnesota GOP is broke. Arizona too. Rick Scott blew the senate war chest at Waffle House. Trump lawyers are pursuing batshit defamation suits. And they are not good lawyers. His reputation doesn't buy much lawyering for 56 million dollars.
Think about what all these articles mean together. Remember when Rick Scott's company was fined 1.7 billion dollars for medicare fraud? The GOP gave that guy their credit card. State GOP's are going broke. Trump's PAC money is going to clown lawyers and chandeliers over the shitcan.
I made a comment when Trump released those hilarious NFTs - there is finite money to be squeezed from the cult, and Trump has no interest in sharing it. 53 bucks! Multiply that by one million and you're still short on how much Trump has spent on lawyers.
So Trump will be fundraising today. The scam emails are being flung out by the millions as I type this. None of that money is going to the GOP. And the GOP is running a shelter for grifters who are stripping the copper from the walls.
Look at the story of George Santos. He's scum, everyone knows it, but they need his vote, so he stays. But there's a problem when you wrap your arms around a crook. They steal your fucking wallet.
posted by adept256 at 8:08 PM on August 1, 2023 [60 favorites]
According to the latest filings with the Federal Election Commission, the Republican Party of Minnesota has just $53.81 in the bank
Here's how Rick Scott has blown millions meant for Republican Senate candidates
"I don't have any big answers about the NRSC's finances, but I can tell you they categorized thousands in expenses to Waffle House as 'air charter,'" said Dennis.
...
“If they were a corporation, the CEO would be fired and investigated,” said a national Republican consultant working on Senate races, according to the Washington Post. “The way this money has been burned, there needs to be an audit or investigation because we’re not gonna take the Senate now and this money has been squandered. It’s a rip-off.”
Judge throws out Donald Trump’s $475m ‘big lie’ defamation lawsuit against CNN
The suit, which the former president filed in October in U.S. District Court in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., alleged a “campaign of dissuasion in the form of libel and slander” that, Mr. Trump asserted, had escalated “as CNN fears the plaintiff will run for president in 2024.” The lawsuit said that the network’s use of the phrase “the big lie” in reference to Mr. Trump’s efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election was tantamount to comparing him to Adolf Hitler and Nazism.
Trump PAC Spent $40 Million On Legal Fees In First Half Of 2023: Reports
The $40.2 million in spending this year brings the PAC’s total outlay for legal fees to $56 million since Trump left the White House, with the prospect of much more to come.
Minnesota GOP is broke. Arizona too. Rick Scott blew the senate war chest at Waffle House. Trump lawyers are pursuing batshit defamation suits. And they are not good lawyers. His reputation doesn't buy much lawyering for 56 million dollars.
Think about what all these articles mean together. Remember when Rick Scott's company was fined 1.7 billion dollars for medicare fraud? The GOP gave that guy their credit card. State GOP's are going broke. Trump's PAC money is going to clown lawyers and chandeliers over the shitcan.
I made a comment when Trump released those hilarious NFTs - there is finite money to be squeezed from the cult, and Trump has no interest in sharing it. 53 bucks! Multiply that by one million and you're still short on how much Trump has spent on lawyers.
So Trump will be fundraising today. The scam emails are being flung out by the millions as I type this. None of that money is going to the GOP. And the GOP is running a shelter for grifters who are stripping the copper from the walls.
Look at the story of George Santos. He's scum, everyone knows it, but they need his vote, so he stays. But there's a problem when you wrap your arms around a crook. They steal your fucking wallet.
posted by adept256 at 8:08 PM on August 1, 2023 [60 favorites]
The ones who ovulate, by the way, are still mad as hell. Don’t discount their fury.
posted by armeowda
One thing I am fairly sure of about the current state of US politics is that many millions of furious women across the country are quietly waiting for the next chance to have their say nationally.
That wave has not reached shore yet. Only question left to answer is how big it will be.
posted by Pouteria at 8:09 PM on August 1, 2023 [31 favorites]
posted by armeowda
One thing I am fairly sure of about the current state of US politics is that many millions of furious women across the country are quietly waiting for the next chance to have their say nationally.
That wave has not reached shore yet. Only question left to answer is how big it will be.
posted by Pouteria at 8:09 PM on August 1, 2023 [31 favorites]
None of that money is going to the GOP. And the GOP is running a shelter for grifters who are stripping the copper from the walls.
It may not matter as much as one might think. Republicans own judges on behalf of the interests that own them. A number of GOP legislators — and Trump himself — get funded under the table by Russia; one person involved gets caught *shrug*. At some point this needs to be understood as treason, even if lawyers and experts will get paid well to argue otherwise in courtrooms of law and of public opinion, respectively.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:24 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
It may not matter as much as one might think. Republicans own judges on behalf of the interests that own them. A number of GOP legislators — and Trump himself — get funded under the table by Russia; one person involved gets caught *shrug*. At some point this needs to be understood as treason, even if lawyers and experts will get paid well to argue otherwise in courtrooms of law and of public opinion, respectively.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:24 PM on August 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
The USA Department of Justice gives Trump secret immunity from prosecution because he's a confidential informant in his old Mafia dealings. Every time a case is presented against him in court, it just stalls and doesn't go anywhere. He will never be convicted of anything in our lifetime, even though it's obvious how guilty he is.
posted by ovvl at 8:39 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 8:39 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
As long as the Republican side is visibly not under the control of rational actors, no one is charging anyone with treason.
We are already in a state in which Trump is openly and preemptively declaring that revenge will be taken -- that those who are charging and accusing him, all the way to the top, will be themselves charged, indicted and tried once he is back in power. The lack of crimes committed by those people does not sound like he thinks it will be an obstacle. So lowering the definition (somehow; left as an exercise for the reader) of a capital crime right before the other side has a finite puncher's chance of being in control of who gets charged with it? Not my idea of a fun time.
posted by delfin at 8:42 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
We are already in a state in which Trump is openly and preemptively declaring that revenge will be taken -- that those who are charging and accusing him, all the way to the top, will be themselves charged, indicted and tried once he is back in power. The lack of crimes committed by those people does not sound like he thinks it will be an obstacle. So lowering the definition (somehow; left as an exercise for the reader) of a capital crime right before the other side has a finite puncher's chance of being in control of who gets charged with it? Not my idea of a fun time.
posted by delfin at 8:42 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
On treason: We've been over this ground many times on the blue, but here are a couple of thoughts again, since it bugs me.
First, the treason clause doesn't say anything about a foreign power. Levying war (whatever that means) is a thing that individuals or groups of individuals can do even when they are not aligned with a nation. This goes all the way back to the 1790s, when two participants in the whiskey rebellion (John Mitchell and Philip Wigle [whose name was spelled lots of different ways]) were tried and convicted of treason and subsequently pardoned by George Washington. Similarly, John Fries was tried, convicted, and later pardoned of treason based on his leading another tax rebellion in 1799-1800.
Second, the treason clause provides two ways of committing treason: levying war OR adhering to Enemies of the United States, giving them aid and comfort. Now, there's room for debate, I think, on both what constitutes an Enemy and what counts as giving aid and comfort. On the first, one might suppose that open field, declared war is required, but that seems to me to be deeply wrong. Just to take a simple example, suppose Russia set in motion a plot to blow up some nuclear power stations or to have some senators killed or something similarly serious, and suppose that a U.S. citizen joined in the effort. Now, suppose that the plot was foiled and that we didn't actually go to war over the attempt. The U.S. citizen would still be guilty of treason, even though the actions were not during a time of declared war with a foreign nation. Even if you do think that "levying war" is required, it's definitely not a requirement that the war be declared by a foreign power. If a U.S. citizen gives a stockpile of guns to an "internal" revolutionary, such as the Whiskey Rebels, that citizen is guilty of treason. So, then we would need to debate what "levying war" actually requires. Is it just anything that could be (reasonably?) construed as an act of war? Do we need physical violence? Threats against the national interest, whether physically violent or not? It's not so neatly cut-and-dried. (To me, this is another example of how the U.S. Constitution is badly written.)
On the second, the Supreme Court in one of its characteristically bad 5-4 decisions (Cramer v U.S.) is thought to have weakened the treason clause by overturning the conviction of Cramer because Cramer was convicted solely on the basis of association with some German saboteurs. But notice that [1] Cramer was initially found guilty of treason, and [2] four Supreme Court justices thought the conviction was correct -- that the only thing required for a treason conviction was friendly association with foreign hostiles. So, it seems to me that there is an open question as to what is required for giving aid and comfort. Does it require material aid, as the majority held in the Cramer decision or not? Older incidents seem to suggest not, since, for example, William Mumford was hanged for treason during the U.S. Civil War without providing any material aid or comfort, as far as I can tell. Maj. Gen. Benjamin Butler ordered Mumford's execution thus:
Third, there is a lot to say about Trump and the charge of treason. Most of it hangs, I think, on whether Russia counts as an Enemy. I think the answer is YES. If Russia was an Enemy of the U.S. starting in, say, 2014, then there are lots of potential overt acts to point to: e.g. obstruction of the Mueller investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election (which seems to me to be giving aid and comfort to Russia and its agents); illegally withholding aid to Ukraine; numerous attempts public and private to weaken NATO; various things he said at his bonkers Helsinki summit with Putin in 2018; etc. I think there's a further case to be made that the events of Jan. 6th independently constituted treason and that lots of people should have been charged with it. That would be totally in line with the history and tradition (lol) of the U.S. My own view is that Trump was a black letter traitor from day one.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 8:46 PM on August 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
First, the treason clause doesn't say anything about a foreign power. Levying war (whatever that means) is a thing that individuals or groups of individuals can do even when they are not aligned with a nation. This goes all the way back to the 1790s, when two participants in the whiskey rebellion (John Mitchell and Philip Wigle [whose name was spelled lots of different ways]) were tried and convicted of treason and subsequently pardoned by George Washington. Similarly, John Fries was tried, convicted, and later pardoned of treason based on his leading another tax rebellion in 1799-1800.
Second, the treason clause provides two ways of committing treason: levying war OR adhering to Enemies of the United States, giving them aid and comfort. Now, there's room for debate, I think, on both what constitutes an Enemy and what counts as giving aid and comfort. On the first, one might suppose that open field, declared war is required, but that seems to me to be deeply wrong. Just to take a simple example, suppose Russia set in motion a plot to blow up some nuclear power stations or to have some senators killed or something similarly serious, and suppose that a U.S. citizen joined in the effort. Now, suppose that the plot was foiled and that we didn't actually go to war over the attempt. The U.S. citizen would still be guilty of treason, even though the actions were not during a time of declared war with a foreign nation. Even if you do think that "levying war" is required, it's definitely not a requirement that the war be declared by a foreign power. If a U.S. citizen gives a stockpile of guns to an "internal" revolutionary, such as the Whiskey Rebels, that citizen is guilty of treason. So, then we would need to debate what "levying war" actually requires. Is it just anything that could be (reasonably?) construed as an act of war? Do we need physical violence? Threats against the national interest, whether physically violent or not? It's not so neatly cut-and-dried. (To me, this is another example of how the U.S. Constitution is badly written.)
On the second, the Supreme Court in one of its characteristically bad 5-4 decisions (Cramer v U.S.) is thought to have weakened the treason clause by overturning the conviction of Cramer because Cramer was convicted solely on the basis of association with some German saboteurs. But notice that [1] Cramer was initially found guilty of treason, and [2] four Supreme Court justices thought the conviction was correct -- that the only thing required for a treason conviction was friendly association with foreign hostiles. So, it seems to me that there is an open question as to what is required for giving aid and comfort. Does it require material aid, as the majority held in the Cramer decision or not? Older incidents seem to suggest not, since, for example, William Mumford was hanged for treason during the U.S. Civil War without providing any material aid or comfort, as far as I can tell. Maj. Gen. Benjamin Butler ordered Mumford's execution thus:
William B. Mumford, a citizen of New Orleans, having been convicted before a military commission of treason and an overt act thereof, tearing down the United States flag from a public building of the United States, after said flag was placed there by Commodore Farragut, of the United States Navy: It is ordered that he be executed according to sentence of said military commission ...Which, again, doesn't look like "material" aid and comfort to me.
Third, there is a lot to say about Trump and the charge of treason. Most of it hangs, I think, on whether Russia counts as an Enemy. I think the answer is YES. If Russia was an Enemy of the U.S. starting in, say, 2014, then there are lots of potential overt acts to point to: e.g. obstruction of the Mueller investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election (which seems to me to be giving aid and comfort to Russia and its agents); illegally withholding aid to Ukraine; numerous attempts public and private to weaken NATO; various things he said at his bonkers Helsinki summit with Putin in 2018; etc. I think there's a further case to be made that the events of Jan. 6th independently constituted treason and that lots of people should have been charged with it. That would be totally in line with the history and tradition (lol) of the U.S. My own view is that Trump was a black letter traitor from day one.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 8:46 PM on August 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
The USA Department of Justice gives Trump secret immunity from prosecution because he's a confidential informant in his old Mafia dealings.This seems super-unlikely to me; bordering on "QAnon for the Left", frankly.
The USA Department of Justice is what has, from essentially its highest levels, brought these charges in the first place.
posted by Flunkie at 8:48 PM on August 1, 2023 [50 favorites]
Sabato’s Crystal Ball predicts that the only real “toss-up” states will be AZ, NV, WI, and GA.
I sense the return of Trump. Get your Cheetos jokes, your pussy hats, and your Diet Cokes out of the garbage because we are doing this again.
No, really, the cases aren't going to trial by the time the election rolls round, or are they? Because unless there's a conviction, an incapacitation, or a death it's still all in play.
posted by kingdead at 8:48 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
I sense the return of Trump. Get your Cheetos jokes, your pussy hats, and your Diet Cokes out of the garbage because we are doing this again.
No, really, the cases aren't going to trial by the time the election rolls round, or are they? Because unless there's a conviction, an incapacitation, or a death it's still all in play.
posted by kingdead at 8:48 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mighty generous of you to assume that the GOP would change tack if Trump is convicted before the election.
I also have opinions on the "if incapacitated or dead" part ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Flunkie at 9:19 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
I also have opinions on the "if incapacitated or dead" part ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Flunkie at 9:19 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am far too cynical after all these years of this crap. TFG will keep running, he will not plead, he will fundraise off the indictments, he will fight and delay and fight, and because he's a rich white man running for president, even if convicted he won't spend any time in confinement. And he will continue running for President. And all the effing GOP will vote for him, because they're willing to believe Joe Biden will steal their guns and take away their gendered pronouns.
And if TFG wins -- which is not impossible -- he will appoint an AG to drop all federal charges against him, and/or pardon himself, and if the Georgia case comes to trial he will drum up riots to protect him, and may try to call out the same masked DHS flunkies he called out during the George Floyd protests in the summer of 2020. And if the SCOTUS claims he can't do any of that, he will throw the mobs at the Court.
He will burn this country to the ground rather than give up any of the power he thinks he should have.
posted by suelac at 9:26 PM on August 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
And if TFG wins -- which is not impossible -- he will appoint an AG to drop all federal charges against him, and/or pardon himself, and if the Georgia case comes to trial he will drum up riots to protect him, and may try to call out the same masked DHS flunkies he called out during the George Floyd protests in the summer of 2020. And if the SCOTUS claims he can't do any of that, he will throw the mobs at the Court.
He will burn this country to the ground rather than give up any of the power he thinks he should have.
posted by suelac at 9:26 PM on August 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
Can you actually vote to bust someone out of jail? Because that does have a certain appeal.
posted by kingdead at 9:28 PM on August 1, 2023
posted by kingdead at 9:28 PM on August 1, 2023
Lyndon LaRouche?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:42 PM on August 1, 2023
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:42 PM on August 1, 2023
One thing that I think everyone kinda knows is out there but, for some reason, I haven't really seen discussed too much is... uhhh... if Trump wins the election.... we all know that this case is going to get tanked, right? Like, how likely is it really that this reaches some kind of ultimate resolution before November 2024? (Also, is there anything in the rulebook that says a dog can't play basketball a convicted and maybe currently imprisoned felon can't be president? I'm actually asking, I'm not sure here.) And, if Trump gets re-elected -- and there's really no reason to think he couldn't be -- there's no friggin' way he's letting the DoJ continue prosecuting this. Will that cause enormous problems and probably trigger some kind of constitutional crisis? Yeah, probs. But what else would you have expected if That Fucking Guy were to get re-elected? Who else to test if this country really is a "Nation of Laws And Not Of Men"?
posted by mhum at 10:16 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by mhum at 10:16 PM on August 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
No, really, the cases aren't going to trial by the time the election rolls round, or are they?
The NY Stormy Daniels trial is set for March 2024. The Mar-a-Lago documents trial is in May.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:24 PM on August 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
The NY Stormy Daniels trial is set for March 2024. The Mar-a-Lago documents trial is in May.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:24 PM on August 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
The ones who ovulate, by the way, are still mad as hell. Don’t discount their fury.
You think half the white ones won’t vote for him this time?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:58 PM on August 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
You think half the white ones won’t vote for him this time?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:58 PM on August 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
Not to be too doom and gloom, but Biden's victory was not a landslide resounding rejection of Trump, and people did confidently declare that there was no way this clown could win the first time.
This is why I bought some REP24_WTA today and put in a limit order to sell at 15% higher: predictions are way down on Trump winning now but its gonna rebound as it does every time after liberals feel optimistic. We are more than a year out still and there's plenty of time to recover or rally behind a new candidate if Trump is somehow ineligible to run.
plus its only like 5 bucks so if im wrong no biggie
posted by pwnguin at 11:43 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is why I bought some REP24_WTA today and put in a limit order to sell at 15% higher: predictions are way down on Trump winning now but its gonna rebound as it does every time after liberals feel optimistic. We are more than a year out still and there's plenty of time to recover or rally behind a new candidate if Trump is somehow ineligible to run.
plus its only like 5 bucks so if im wrong no biggie
posted by pwnguin at 11:43 PM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
and if the Georgia case comes to trial he will drum up riots to protect him, and may try to call out the same masked DHS flunkies he called out during the George Floyd protests in the summer of 2020. And if the SCOTUS claims he can't do any of that, he will throw the mobs at the Court.
Though I agree with the rest of what you are saying, he tried to summon the mob when he was arrested in NY and in Florida, and they didn't show up. The Trumpists are stupid, but they are paying attention and seeing how much time the Jan 6th people are getting. And there is a point to that which I can't entirely figure out.
Of course if he wins it's another story, specially if he pardons the Jan 6thers. Then he will be officially ruling by mob law, and no one will be safe. Least of all American democracy.
posted by mumimor at 12:54 AM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Though I agree with the rest of what you are saying, he tried to summon the mob when he was arrested in NY and in Florida, and they didn't show up. The Trumpists are stupid, but they are paying attention and seeing how much time the Jan 6th people are getting. And there is a point to that which I can't entirely figure out.
Of course if he wins it's another story, specially if he pardons the Jan 6thers. Then he will be officially ruling by mob law, and no one will be safe. Least of all American democracy.
posted by mumimor at 12:54 AM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
If we didn't hang Jeff Davis, this clown ain't gonna swing.
I was today years old when I found out that Jefferson Davis got two years of house arrest, was released on bail and then all charges were dropped. And I thought you guys were lenient on Nixon! What does it take to get some actual consequences over there?
posted by Harald74 at 1:55 AM on August 2, 2023 [32 favorites]
I was today years old when I found out that Jefferson Davis got two years of house arrest, was released on bail and then all charges were dropped. And I thought you guys were lenient on Nixon! What does it take to get some actual consequences over there?
posted by Harald74 at 1:55 AM on August 2, 2023 [32 favorites]
A couple of excerpts from the indictment:
90c. On January 1, the Defendant called the Vice President and berated him because he had learned that the Vice President had opposed a lawsuit seeking a judicial decision that, at the certification, the Vice President had the authority to reject or return votes to the states under the Constitution. The Vice President responded that he thought there was no constitutional basis for such authority and that it was improper. In response, the Defendant told the Vice President, “You’re too honest.”
122. At 11:44 p.m., Co-Conspirator 2 emailed the Vice President’s Counsel advocating that the Vice President violate the law and seek further delay of the certification. Co-Conspirator 2 wrote, “I implore you to consider one more relatively minor violation [of the ECA] and adjourn for 10 days to allow the legislatures to finish their investigations, as well as to allow a full forensic audit of the massive amount of illegal activity that has occurred here.”
"You're too honest" and "one more relatively minor violation". They knew. They knew they be crimin'. This is consciousness of guilt. Eastman (co-conspirator 2) put it in writing. In a fucking email! The relatively minor violation he's talking about here is ending American democracy. Nothing major, just a minor thing like ending the republic.
a full forensic audit of the massive amount of illegal activity that has occurred here.
You got your wish motherfucker.
posted by adept256 at 2:05 AM on August 2, 2023 [39 favorites]
90c. On January 1, the Defendant called the Vice President and berated him because he had learned that the Vice President had opposed a lawsuit seeking a judicial decision that, at the certification, the Vice President had the authority to reject or return votes to the states under the Constitution. The Vice President responded that he thought there was no constitutional basis for such authority and that it was improper. In response, the Defendant told the Vice President, “You’re too honest.”
122. At 11:44 p.m., Co-Conspirator 2 emailed the Vice President’s Counsel advocating that the Vice President violate the law and seek further delay of the certification. Co-Conspirator 2 wrote, “I implore you to consider one more relatively minor violation [of the ECA] and adjourn for 10 days to allow the legislatures to finish their investigations, as well as to allow a full forensic audit of the massive amount of illegal activity that has occurred here.”
"You're too honest" and "one more relatively minor violation". They knew. They knew they be crimin'. This is consciousness of guilt. Eastman (co-conspirator 2) put it in writing. In a fucking email! The relatively minor violation he's talking about here is ending American democracy. Nothing major, just a minor thing like ending the republic.
a full forensic audit of the massive amount of illegal activity that has occurred here.
You got your wish motherfucker.
posted by adept256 at 2:05 AM on August 2, 2023 [39 favorites]
Does anyone know what they are saying on Fox?
"You're too honest" and "one more relatively minor violation". They knew. They knew they be crimin'. This is consciousness of guilt. Eastman (co-conspirator 2) put it in writing. In a fucking email! The relatively minor violation he's talking about here is ending American democracy. Nothing major, just a minor thing like ending the republic.
It is endlessly fascinating to see how bad they are at this. I'm old enough to remember the famous Four Seasons press conference. They want to be bad-ass movie mobsters, but in the end they are all clowns. Dangerous clowns (I've always been scared of clowns, even before clown horror became a thing, so that doesn't surprise me at all).
posted by mumimor at 3:03 AM on August 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
"You're too honest" and "one more relatively minor violation". They knew. They knew they be crimin'. This is consciousness of guilt. Eastman (co-conspirator 2) put it in writing. In a fucking email! The relatively minor violation he's talking about here is ending American democracy. Nothing major, just a minor thing like ending the republic.
It is endlessly fascinating to see how bad they are at this. I'm old enough to remember the famous Four Seasons press conference. They want to be bad-ass movie mobsters, but in the end they are all clowns. Dangerous clowns (I've always been scared of clowns, even before clown horror became a thing, so that doesn't surprise me at all).
posted by mumimor at 3:03 AM on August 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Nobody is really talking about it as a factor in American politics but I think Ukraine will play a part in the coming federal election. A lot of the old school cold-war type republicans are going to be very reluctant to vote for Trump when he is clearly a Putin fanboi and will throw Ukraine to the Russian wolves. I don't the cold-war Republicans are a big cohort but I think they could be a percent or two of older highly likely voters.
posted by srboisvert at 3:17 AM on August 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 3:17 AM on August 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
Among the scenarios that result in Trump returning to the White House, I've always thought the most likely one is this: he loses in key swing states but GOP officials fake a victory.
This indictment makes that scenario much less likely. There's always going to be a group of cultists who are willing to go to jail to put Trump in power, and a group of honest (or, if you prefer, lawful evil) GOP officials who will refuse to break election law. But anybody in the middle... anybody who is making an amoral, self-interested calculation of the risks and rewards involved in committing election fraud to help Trump... now has to add the possibility of federal prosecution into the "risks" column.
Even if Trump himself gets acquitted on all charges... even if he himself fundraises enough to make a profit off these indictments... some of the people who helped him are ending up in well-publicized legal jeopardy jail, and some of them are probably going to go bankrupt paying their legal bills. That's a huge disincentive to anybody who is asked to help him next time.
I get that, for some of us, assuming that Trump will always win and we're all screwed is an important psychological protective mechanism. For those people, I absolutely get where you're coming from. I respect whatever you need to believe in order to stay sane in these insane times.
But for any of us who are doing our flawed human best to grapple with probabilities as objectively as we can... By my calculations, the odds of Trump getting back into the White House have just dropped quite a bit.
posted by yankeefog at 3:24 AM on August 2, 2023 [43 favorites]
This indictment makes that scenario much less likely. There's always going to be a group of cultists who are willing to go to jail to put Trump in power, and a group of honest (or, if you prefer, lawful evil) GOP officials who will refuse to break election law. But anybody in the middle... anybody who is making an amoral, self-interested calculation of the risks and rewards involved in committing election fraud to help Trump... now has to add the possibility of federal prosecution into the "risks" column.
Even if Trump himself gets acquitted on all charges... even if he himself fundraises enough to make a profit off these indictments... some of the people who helped him are ending up in well-publicized legal jeopardy jail, and some of them are probably going to go bankrupt paying their legal bills. That's a huge disincentive to anybody who is asked to help him next time.
I get that, for some of us, assuming that Trump will always win and we're all screwed is an important psychological protective mechanism. For those people, I absolutely get where you're coming from. I respect whatever you need to believe in order to stay sane in these insane times.
But for any of us who are doing our flawed human best to grapple with probabilities as objectively as we can... By my calculations, the odds of Trump getting back into the White House have just dropped quite a bit.
posted by yankeefog at 3:24 AM on August 2, 2023 [43 favorites]
Look at the story of George Santos. He's scum, everyone knows it, but they need his vote, so he stays. But there's a problem when you wrap your arms around a crook. They steal your fucking wallet.
From the CBC podcast linked earlier in the thread:
Choose your leaders
with wisdom and forethought.
To be led by a coward is to be controlled
by all that the coward fears.
To be led by a fool is to be led by the opportunists who control the fool.
To be led by a thief is to offer up your most precious treasures to be stolen.
To be led by a liar is to ask to be told lies.
To be led by a tyrant is to sell yourself and those you love into slavery.
-Octavia Butler-
I wish I could make posters of this and plaster them all around the country
posted by newpotato at 3:27 AM on August 2, 2023 [48 favorites]
From the CBC podcast linked earlier in the thread:
Choose your leaders
with wisdom and forethought.
To be led by a coward is to be controlled
by all that the coward fears.
To be led by a fool is to be led by the opportunists who control the fool.
To be led by a thief is to offer up your most precious treasures to be stolen.
To be led by a liar is to ask to be told lies.
To be led by a tyrant is to sell yourself and those you love into slavery.
-Octavia Butler-
I wish I could make posters of this and plaster them all around the country
posted by newpotato at 3:27 AM on August 2, 2023 [48 favorites]
Maybe they'll actually arrest him and we get mug shots on this one. Make him post bail.Sadly, I doubt it. That’s for the poors.
posted by dcormier at 4:24 AM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
I get that, for some of us, assuming that Trump will always win and we're all screwed is an important psychological protective mechanism. For those people, I absolutely get where you're coming from. I respect whatever you need to believe in order to stay sane in these insane times.
It's a protective mechanism because if another Republican wins, the exact same objectives that Trump had are back on the board only with more obedience from the governing classes. I'd almost rather have a jailbird in that kind of situation but stability counts for a lot...
posted by kingdead at 4:28 AM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's a protective mechanism because if another Republican wins, the exact same objectives that Trump had are back on the board only with more obedience from the governing classes. I'd almost rather have a jailbird in that kind of situation but stability counts for a lot...
posted by kingdead at 4:28 AM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
A lot of the old school cold-war type republicans are going to be very reluctant to vote for Trump
Citation needed. I can't think of a single one in power. Most of them are dead. The others changed sides long ago.
posted by spitbull at 4:35 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Citation needed. I can't think of a single one in power. Most of them are dead. The others changed sides long ago.
posted by spitbull at 4:35 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
The 2024 election will be entirely about... Kamala Harris. You know, the person you haven't seen for 2.5 years because she's a total dud. Trump, by then convicted of crimes, with 4.5M of his voters dead of old age and 7.5M Gen Zers come of age, will do nothing but point at Biden and say "he's gonna die, and you're going to get this [racist slur] [misogynist slur] MARXIST as your president unless you vote for me."
They're going to compare her to a gorilla. They're going to say shit you wouldn't believe, even after 9 years of "grab'em by the pussy" and "Mexico isn't sending their best people". They're going to use footage of black people setting things on fire in every ad. They're going to call her a "socialist", even though she's the kind of corporate ConservaDem that makes even people like me shrug and say the Bernie stans do have a point. All that right-wing media you don't consume because you know how stupid/racist it is? Nothing but Kamala, 24/7. All in an effort to peel off enough of a fringe of older white folks who know full well Trump is a piece of shit who will destroy everything, but who can still be scared by the idea of black people stealing their TV.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 4:36 AM on August 2, 2023 [37 favorites]
They're going to compare her to a gorilla. They're going to say shit you wouldn't believe, even after 9 years of "grab'em by the pussy" and "Mexico isn't sending their best people". They're going to use footage of black people setting things on fire in every ad. They're going to call her a "socialist", even though she's the kind of corporate ConservaDem that makes even people like me shrug and say the Bernie stans do have a point. All that right-wing media you don't consume because you know how stupid/racist it is? Nothing but Kamala, 24/7. All in an effort to peel off enough of a fringe of older white folks who know full well Trump is a piece of shit who will destroy everything, but who can still be scared by the idea of black people stealing their TV.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 4:36 AM on August 2, 2023 [37 favorites]
It's not clear to me what the actual consequences here will or could be.
So far it's a lot of free publicity and rallying his base while not (outwardly) impacting his finances. Even if found guilty, it won't impact him financially, he's highly unlikely to do any time, and none of this seems to prevent him from running for president?
I think it's incredibly important to go through this process and demonstrate that the system still functions and that there are checks and balances in place, but it all feels quite toothless in real world meaningful consequences to the perpetrator.
I would love to be proven wrong.
posted by slimepuppy at 4:48 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
So far it's a lot of free publicity and rallying his base while not (outwardly) impacting his finances. Even if found guilty, it won't impact him financially, he's highly unlikely to do any time, and none of this seems to prevent him from running for president?
I think it's incredibly important to go through this process and demonstrate that the system still functions and that there are checks and balances in place, but it all feels quite toothless in real world meaningful consequences to the perpetrator.
I would love to be proven wrong.
posted by slimepuppy at 4:48 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
U.S. v. Trump will be the most important case in our nation's history (UCLA law professor Richard Hasen for Slate)
posted by box at 4:53 AM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by box at 4:53 AM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm trying to figure out why Peter Navarro isn't named as a conspirator.
posted by spitbull at 5:03 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by spitbull at 5:03 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Every time a case is presented against him in court, it just stalls and doesn't go anywhere.
Trump was found liable for defaming E. Jean Carroll, and the jury confirmed that he sexually assaulted her (though it was a civil, not criminal, trial). And she's bringing his subsequent defamation of her back to court.
Of course Trump's base is delusional, but they are not enough to win an election.
4.5M of his voters dead of old age and 7.5M Gen Zers come of age
That's another big difference between 2016 and now. Many of Trump's voters have since died (some, ironically, of the pandemic he failed to control) while a lot of younger voters are now eligible. And most of them hate Trump and everything he stands for. And they've been remarkably active as voters.
There's little doubt, though, that the 2024 election will be at least in part a referendum over whether Donald Trump goes to jail.
posted by Gelatin at 5:05 AM on August 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
Trump was found liable for defaming E. Jean Carroll, and the jury confirmed that he sexually assaulted her (though it was a civil, not criminal, trial). And she's bringing his subsequent defamation of her back to court.
Of course Trump's base is delusional, but they are not enough to win an election.
4.5M of his voters dead of old age and 7.5M Gen Zers come of age
That's another big difference between 2016 and now. Many of Trump's voters have since died (some, ironically, of the pandemic he failed to control) while a lot of younger voters are now eligible. And most of them hate Trump and everything he stands for. And they've been remarkably active as voters.
There's little doubt, though, that the 2024 election will be at least in part a referendum over whether Donald Trump goes to jail.
posted by Gelatin at 5:05 AM on August 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
Ok, say that this process is successful - TFG is convicted - then what? Is there a special jail for this level of traitors? Aren’t a lot of regular and military jails run by people who love TFG?
But wait, I have more “after” questions: what steps is the US doing to stop this happening again? Media education? Removing lead from the water supply? It seems that the gerontocratic leadership of the US have learnt no lessons, and will be fighting a trump rump for the next 10 years, until it mutates into some other grass-level fascist group.
posted by The River Ivel at 5:14 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
But wait, I have more “after” questions: what steps is the US doing to stop this happening again? Media education? Removing lead from the water supply? It seems that the gerontocratic leadership of the US have learnt no lessons, and will be fighting a trump rump for the next 10 years, until it mutates into some other grass-level fascist group.
posted by The River Ivel at 5:14 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Going quietly into that good night was, of course, never an option.
Hugh Hewitt: "I hope the charges brought by the American Javert are thrown out, but the TDS Dead Ender Coalition should listen carefully to what John Lauro told @BretBaier last night: The former president will be subpoenaing everyone who had anything to do with the unusual circumstances of the 2020 election in order to prove his genuine suspicion of the process, which I think means everyone from Mark Zuckerberg who provided the "Zuck Bucks" to the PA Supreme Court to the "51 former Intelligence Community members" who signed the "laptop is Russian disinformation letter" to the old execs at Twitter who suppressed the @NYPost story to Hunter and President Biden and on and on and even perhaps to all participants in the Steele Dossier ought to clear their calendars for whenever the trial is scheduled. Show trials are only choreographed in Stalin's Russia. Lauro made clear this one --if it begins-- is going to explore every corner of the 2020 election with former President Trump empowered to subpoena everyone who can help prove his innocence."
It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for 'em
posted by delfin at 5:43 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hugh Hewitt: "I hope the charges brought by the American Javert are thrown out, but the TDS Dead Ender Coalition should listen carefully to what John Lauro told @BretBaier last night: The former president will be subpoenaing everyone who had anything to do with the unusual circumstances of the 2020 election in order to prove his genuine suspicion of the process, which I think means everyone from Mark Zuckerberg who provided the "Zuck Bucks" to the PA Supreme Court to the "51 former Intelligence Community members" who signed the "laptop is Russian disinformation letter" to the old execs at Twitter who suppressed the @NYPost story to Hunter and President Biden and on and on and even perhaps to all participants in the Steele Dossier ought to clear their calendars for whenever the trial is scheduled. Show trials are only choreographed in Stalin's Russia. Lauro made clear this one --if it begins-- is going to explore every corner of the 2020 election with former President Trump empowered to subpoena everyone who can help prove his innocence."
It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for 'em
posted by delfin at 5:43 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
> It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for 'em
Given that the only strategy here is to delay and obfuscate, it probably will.
posted by parm at 5:52 AM on August 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Given that the only strategy here is to delay and obfuscate, it probably will.
posted by parm at 5:52 AM on August 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
IANAL but there are limits to who/what you can actually subpoena, it has to be relevant to the subject matter of the case, which is not 'Fair media coverage of the 2020 election' but 'Trump has conspired to overturn the 2020 election'.
What I don't know is when the determination of 'relevant' has to occur, is this determined by the judge or does this has to be contested by each person that is issued a subpoena? (that could clog a a court really fast) Can the judge revoke subpoena powers of an attorney if he determines they're acting in bad faith?
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:42 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
What I don't know is when the determination of 'relevant' has to occur, is this determined by the judge or does this has to be contested by each person that is issued a subpoena? (that could clog a a court really fast) Can the judge revoke subpoena powers of an attorney if he determines they're acting in bad faith?
posted by WaterAndPixels at 6:42 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
>The ones who ovulate, by the way, are still mad as hell. Don’t discount their fury.
>You think half the white ones won’t vote for him this time?
Reread. I didn’t say “women,” I said “people who ovulate.”
The poll you refer to didn’t bother to control for age, but conducted by phone and at exits on Election Day. That’s a surefire way to make sure you get the oldest voters possible.
Younger people vote early when they can, and don’t answer calls from unknown numbers; further, as a rule the population is less white as you move down the birth years.
TFG’s base skews old and white. If you administer your poll so it also skews old, you’ll get mostly people who haven’t ovulated in a while, if ever, and yes, your results will skew Trumpy. (Bonus: men can point back to “but but but half of white women!!!” anytime someone dares bring up reproductive rights, because it finds a group of women to blame for what would not have been possible without the male vote.)
posted by armeowda at 6:45 AM on August 2, 2023 [20 favorites]
>You think half the white ones won’t vote for him this time?
Reread. I didn’t say “women,” I said “people who ovulate.”
The poll you refer to didn’t bother to control for age, but conducted by phone and at exits on Election Day. That’s a surefire way to make sure you get the oldest voters possible.
Younger people vote early when they can, and don’t answer calls from unknown numbers; further, as a rule the population is less white as you move down the birth years.
TFG’s base skews old and white. If you administer your poll so it also skews old, you’ll get mostly people who haven’t ovulated in a while, if ever, and yes, your results will skew Trumpy. (Bonus: men can point back to “but but but half of white women!!!” anytime someone dares bring up reproductive rights, because it finds a group of women to blame for what would not have been possible without the male vote.)
posted by armeowda at 6:45 AM on August 2, 2023 [20 favorites]
Also, is there anything in the rulebook that says a dog can't play basketball a convicted and maybe currently imprisoned felon can't be president? I'm actually asking, I'm not sure here.
In 1920, Eugene Debs was serving a prison sentence for sedition and placed third in the popular vote with 3.4% of the total votes cast. For comparison, the third-place ticket in 2020 was the Libertarian party, with a little over a third of that: 1.18% of the popular vote.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:00 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
In 1920, Eugene Debs was serving a prison sentence for sedition and placed third in the popular vote with 3.4% of the total votes cast. For comparison, the third-place ticket in 2020 was the Libertarian party, with a little over a third of that: 1.18% of the popular vote.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:00 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Reading the indictment, I'm most disturbed by how casually the co-conspirators (not just Trump) discussed political violence. Some excerpts, with likely identities in brackets:
posted by Rhaomi at 7:08 AM on August 2, 2023 [40 favorites]
81. On the afternoon of January 3, [Jeffrey Clark] spoke with [Pat Philbin]. The previous month, [Philbin] had informed [Trump] that "there is no world, there is no option in which you do not leave the White House on January 20th." Now, [Philbin] tried to dissuade [Clark] from assuming the role of Acting Attorney General. [Philbin] reiterated to [Clark] that there had not been outcome-determinative fraud in the election and that if [Trump] remained in office nonetheless, there would be "riots in every major city in the United States." [Clark] responded, "Well, [Pat], that's why there's an Insurrection Act."These sociopaths were not just openly courting civil war, they were damn downright eager for it.
[...]
94. Also on January 4, when [John Eastman] acknowledged to [Mark Meadows] that no court would support his proposal, [Meadows] told [Eastman], "You're going to cause riots in the streets." [Eastman] responded that there had previously been points in the nation's history where violence was necessary to protect the republic.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:08 AM on August 2, 2023 [40 favorites]
I love the fact that it's a 45 page indictment of president #45! As I watched Smith's statement I imagined him and his co-workers discussing ways of keeping it to 45 pages: Yeah, maybe we need to adjust the margins. OK, how about using shorter words. Whoever can edit it down to 45 pages gets a Subway gift certificate.
posted by mareli at 7:10 AM on August 2, 2023 [35 favorites]
posted by mareli at 7:10 AM on August 2, 2023 [35 favorites]
Kamala is going back to her home planet of California, not because Republicans are racist (they are but they're not going to call a woman a gorilla! that sounds nuts)
Where the heck have you been since 2008?
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:18 AM on August 2, 2023 [39 favorites]
Where the heck have you been since 2008?
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:18 AM on August 2, 2023 [39 favorites]
IANAL but there are limits to who/what you can actually subpoena, it has to be relevant to the subject matter of the case, which is not 'Fair media coverage of the 2020 election' but 'Trump has conspired to overturn the 2020 election'.
Well, yes. You know that, I know that, Hewitt knows that, Lauro certainly knows that.
How do you defend the indefensible? You argue that the process of trial itself is corrupted. That you have tons of exculpatory evidence and proof that the other side is lying and cheating, conveniently off-screen in the custody of your girlfriend who lives in Canada but I assure you that it exists, and that THEY refuse to let it be heard because it would destroy their case.
To this day, there are plenty of people who will happily tell you that the 2020 election has never been tested in a court of law. "What about the 60+ court cases, before both Dem and Rep-appointed judges, that were unanimous in smacking down every single argument Trump's legal teams presented?" you may ask. "Not one of them ever let Trump introduce the REAL evidence," they'll counter, smugly. "They were all rigged. We just need to get it in front of the right judge, a real judge, and he'll let it all in and 2020 will be overturned."
And so it will go with this. Trump can't be guilty, because he's TRUMP! Rather, let's all believe six impossible things before breakfast that reject reality and substitute our own.
posted by delfin at 7:24 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well, yes. You know that, I know that, Hewitt knows that, Lauro certainly knows that.
How do you defend the indefensible? You argue that the process of trial itself is corrupted. That you have tons of exculpatory evidence and proof that the other side is lying and cheating, conveniently off-screen in the custody of your girlfriend who lives in Canada but I assure you that it exists, and that THEY refuse to let it be heard because it would destroy their case.
To this day, there are plenty of people who will happily tell you that the 2020 election has never been tested in a court of law. "What about the 60+ court cases, before both Dem and Rep-appointed judges, that were unanimous in smacking down every single argument Trump's legal teams presented?" you may ask. "Not one of them ever let Trump introduce the REAL evidence," they'll counter, smugly. "They were all rigged. We just need to get it in front of the right judge, a real judge, and he'll let it all in and 2020 will be overturned."
And so it will go with this. Trump can't be guilty, because he's TRUMP! Rather, let's all believe six impossible things before breakfast that reject reality and substitute our own.
posted by delfin at 7:24 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
All democrats believe Kamala Harris is a "bimbo?"
What did I just read?
posted by spitbull at 7:25 AM on August 2, 2023 [46 favorites]
What did I just read?
posted by spitbull at 7:25 AM on August 2, 2023 [46 favorites]
delfin, I'm not arguing that the case will convince any of the Trump die hard followers he's guilty, just that the actual judicial framework currently in place should prevent Trump's "lawyers" from turning it into a circus. Or at least I hope it will.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:32 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:32 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Joe: It was Republicans who stood up to Trump(nojoelink)
A grand jury in Washington returned a new four-count indictment criminally charging former President Trump with his efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election and subvert lawful votes. The Morning Joe panel discusses the 45-page indictment, and Joe Scarborough says what stands out to him about the indictment is how it shows Republicans standing up to Trump.
Why are you like this Joe? Let's make this plain, Pence isn't a hero. He did his job. You don't get a bravery award for not doing a crime.
Let me tell you what he did do. He called Dan Quayle and asked for his advice. Is this a good idea Dan? What does Dan Quayle think? No, he said. Bad idea! Thanks Dan.
Next time I'm compelled to do a crime, I will ask myself, what would Dan Quayle do? Then I'll be a hero.
Fuck Pence. Fuck all of them. They're not heroes. It took 'til 2021 to gut-check your conscience? Half a million people had died at that point. I don't believe they're selfless either. Pence wants to be president. They all want to cover their ass. No-one wants their fingerprints on the gun. There's no honor in that.
And fuck Joe Scarborough. This clip was from the very beginning of his show. His very first take. Look at all the brave republicans! Fuck that.
posted by adept256 at 7:33 AM on August 2, 2023 [28 favorites]
A grand jury in Washington returned a new four-count indictment criminally charging former President Trump with his efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election and subvert lawful votes. The Morning Joe panel discusses the 45-page indictment, and Joe Scarborough says what stands out to him about the indictment is how it shows Republicans standing up to Trump.
Why are you like this Joe? Let's make this plain, Pence isn't a hero. He did his job. You don't get a bravery award for not doing a crime.
Let me tell you what he did do. He called Dan Quayle and asked for his advice. Is this a good idea Dan? What does Dan Quayle think? No, he said. Bad idea! Thanks Dan.
Next time I'm compelled to do a crime, I will ask myself, what would Dan Quayle do? Then I'll be a hero.
Fuck Pence. Fuck all of them. They're not heroes. It took 'til 2021 to gut-check your conscience? Half a million people had died at that point. I don't believe they're selfless either. Pence wants to be president. They all want to cover their ass. No-one wants their fingerprints on the gun. There's no honor in that.
And fuck Joe Scarborough. This clip was from the very beginning of his show. His very first take. Look at all the brave republicans! Fuck that.
posted by adept256 at 7:33 AM on August 2, 2023 [28 favorites]
Keith 'Special Guest Star Ted Baxter as Chicken Little' Olbermann announced in his latest podcast that, after reviewing all the relevant documents, he believes #6 is Bernard Kerik, fwiw.
posted by zaixfeep at 7:34 AM on August 2, 2023
posted by zaixfeep at 7:34 AM on August 2, 2023
Don't love the title given how that reference has long been co-opted by a murderous right wing group; given the subject here you can't just steal it back
posted by stevil at 7:45 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by stevil at 7:45 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
DEMOCRATS think she's a bimbo and hate herDemocrat here. Have a question: What?
posted by Flunkie at 7:45 AM on August 2, 2023 [46 favorites]
I’m sure that like everyone else Democrats have a wide variety of reasons for disliking Kamala Harris. SESTA/FOSTA Is a good one.
posted by Artw at 8:22 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:22 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
K. Harris is brilliant in a lot of ways, politician on the national stage might not be one of them. Still she's worth more than... well, pick the analogy of your choice that denigrates the R party ANd not being an adequately monstrous politician for the national stage is less of an indictment than some might think. Also, significantly, she shoved the US a teensy-tiny bit more in the direction of 'Regular democracy whose politicians represent its citizenry' and that's good.
Lawrence Tribe on some talking head show mentioned the potentially disastrous timing of the whole thing - say Trump should, god help us all, win and he nullifies the all the indictments. That would be down-right catastrophic.
Hopefully he will, in fact, bankrupt the R Party and they will fail even more. And hopefully those voters with a uterus will recognise the peril, very real and present, the R party represent and, whether out loud or not, vote for anyone else...
But damn the last twenty-odd years have been interesting times.
posted by From Bklyn at 8:22 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Lawrence Tribe on some talking head show mentioned the potentially disastrous timing of the whole thing - say Trump should, god help us all, win and he nullifies the all the indictments. That would be down-right catastrophic.
Hopefully he will, in fact, bankrupt the R Party and they will fail even more. And hopefully those voters with a uterus will recognise the peril, very real and present, the R party represent and, whether out loud or not, vote for anyone else...
But damn the last twenty-odd years have been interesting times.
posted by From Bklyn at 8:22 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm going to need stronger meds and methods to get through this. I'm really worried.
posted by mattgriffin at 8:24 AM on August 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by mattgriffin at 8:24 AM on August 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
I’m sure that like everyone else Democrats have a wide variety of reasons for disliking Kamala Harris.I'm not a terribly big fan of Harris, but I think there's a difference between "dislike"and "hate", and an even bigger difference between "dislike" and "think she's a bimbo and hate her".
posted by Flunkie at 8:27 AM on August 2, 2023 [32 favorites]
The latest Letters from an American by historian Heather Cox Richardson notes:
Los Angeles Times senior legal affairs columnist Harry Litman concluded that the absence of Trump’s White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows, from the indictment indicates he’s cooperating with the Department of Justice. Meadows had a ringside seat to the last days of the Trump administration.I'm not readily finding a link to that, but here's a June 7 article at Salon: Legal experts: Mark Meadows may have outplayed Trump — and Jan. 6 indictment may be “imminent”:
Former U.S. Attorney Harry Litman predicted that Meadows' testimony could "bury" Trump.posted by kristi at 8:27 AM on August 2, 2023 [20 favorites]
"The lawyers for Trump & co. l have been largely ham handed and ineffective. Meadows's lawyer, by contrast, former DAG George Terwilliger, has kept him totally out of the limelight and steered him skillfully," Litman tweeted.
It's unclear under what circumstances Meadows testified and whether he was given immunity or quietly pleaded guilty.
New York University Law Prof. Ryan Goodman noted "Meadows' (smart) attorney George Terwilliger's statement" that Meadows told the truth where he had a "legal obligation to do so."
"That's consistent, to say the least, with DOJ giving immunity to overcome Fifth Amendment," he wrote.
Goodman noted that Meadows' actions "seem to be kept secret from Trump team."
"Put these 2 things together and what do you have?" he wrote. "A cooperator."
The former president will be subpoenaing everyone who had anything to do with the unusual circumstances of the 2020 election in order to prove his genuine suspicion of the process,
Trump has shitty lawyers, for many reasons. In this case, they have prepared a strategy that doesn't fit the allegations and the proof in the indictment, and instead of biding their time, reading the document and figuring out a new strategy, they come out screaming. Very much in Trump's style, but not good defense. They are about to be steamrolled.
I'm not going to predict how this ends because there are so many unknowns (delays, jury selection, election), but the knowns are that Trump and his lawyers are no match for Jack Smith and his team. And they know it. It is pretty clear that Trump knows his only way out of this is to get elected.
posted by mumimor at 8:33 AM on August 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
Trump has shitty lawyers, for many reasons. In this case, they have prepared a strategy that doesn't fit the allegations and the proof in the indictment, and instead of biding their time, reading the document and figuring out a new strategy, they come out screaming. Very much in Trump's style, but not good defense. They are about to be steamrolled.
I'm not going to predict how this ends because there are so many unknowns (delays, jury selection, election), but the knowns are that Trump and his lawyers are no match for Jack Smith and his team. And they know it. It is pretty clear that Trump knows his only way out of this is to get elected.
posted by mumimor at 8:33 AM on August 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
I would not describe myself as stunned by these allegations. I would describe myself as having watched this happen in plain sight and in real time. I know a legal case this momentous has to be carefully built, but literally everybody knows what he did, though some think it was justified and the rest of us think it was treasonous.
And that is why these cases don't mean a damn thing in the long run. A conviction will be no more significant to the Trump crowd than anything else has been so far. My fear is that the cultural conflict that allowed a man like Donald Trump to rise to the Presidency (!!) will only be settled by a long, bloody reign of violence that will make "the troubles" in Northern Ireland look like a literary society poetry reading.
posted by Naberius at 8:38 AM on August 2, 2023
And that is why these cases don't mean a damn thing in the long run. A conviction will be no more significant to the Trump crowd than anything else has been so far. My fear is that the cultural conflict that allowed a man like Donald Trump to rise to the Presidency (!!) will only be settled by a long, bloody reign of violence that will make "the troubles" in Northern Ireland look like a literary society poetry reading.
posted by Naberius at 8:38 AM on August 2, 2023
SESTA/FOSTA Is a good one.
Letting Stephen Mnuchin free, who later become part of the Trump administration is another.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:39 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Letting Stephen Mnuchin free, who later become part of the Trump administration is another.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:39 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
after reviewing all the relevant documents, he believes #6 is Bernard Kerik, fwiw.
Not the Mein Pillow guy ?
posted by banshee at 8:50 AM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not the Mein Pillow guy ?
posted by banshee at 8:50 AM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’m sure that like everyone else Democrats have a wide variety of reasons for disliking Kamala Harris.
Speaking as a Democrat, I'm mostly eh on Harris. She's an unexciting centrist who has gotten on board with a few terrible ideas in the last decade, but that's about par for the course for our general-election candidates. I felt about the same about Biden and he's mostly exceeded my expectations in terms of picking worthwhile battles and on the specific economic-revitalization actions he's taken. I'm comfortably certain Harris would be a much better president than literally any Republican who has shown interest in the job, and might pleasantly surprise me. If there was a likelihood of trading her out for someone even better, then, sure, I'd be enthused, but as far as I can tell there's not actually much of a push to do so.
Would I like a more passionate progressive on the ticket? Sure. Do I expect one? Not really. Am I unusually unhappy that Kamala Harris isn't one? Nah. I doubt that Democrats who are less progressive than me (which is most of them; I'm pretty leftist) have stronger feelings than me on that point.
posted by jackbishop at 9:00 AM on August 2, 2023 [35 favorites]
Speaking as a Democrat, I'm mostly eh on Harris. She's an unexciting centrist who has gotten on board with a few terrible ideas in the last decade, but that's about par for the course for our general-election candidates. I felt about the same about Biden and he's mostly exceeded my expectations in terms of picking worthwhile battles and on the specific economic-revitalization actions he's taken. I'm comfortably certain Harris would be a much better president than literally any Republican who has shown interest in the job, and might pleasantly surprise me. If there was a likelihood of trading her out for someone even better, then, sure, I'd be enthused, but as far as I can tell there's not actually much of a push to do so.
Would I like a more passionate progressive on the ticket? Sure. Do I expect one? Not really. Am I unusually unhappy that Kamala Harris isn't one? Nah. I doubt that Democrats who are less progressive than me (which is most of them; I'm pretty leftist) have stronger feelings than me on that point.
posted by jackbishop at 9:00 AM on August 2, 2023 [35 favorites]
I'm not a terribly big fan of Harris, but I think there's a difference between "dislike"and "hate", and an even bigger difference between "dislike" and "think she's a bimbo and hate her".
I like her just fine, but don't think she's a big enough personality considering the Democrat's shallow bench, and she's from a safe Democratic state, so she doesn't even bring any swing-state notoriety to the table.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:12 AM on August 2, 2023
I like her just fine, but don't think she's a big enough personality considering the Democrat's shallow bench, and she's from a safe Democratic state, so she doesn't even bring any swing-state notoriety to the table.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:12 AM on August 2, 2023
Yeah to be clear I'm having a problem with "bimbo," the gendered slur itself. The bill of particulars for and against Harris is irrelevant to my chagrin.
posted by spitbull at 9:13 AM on August 2, 2023 [41 favorites]
posted by spitbull at 9:13 AM on August 2, 2023 [41 favorites]
Should she win and predictably lose then you can expect some narratives around that, but you are right that it isn’t generally the problem anyone on or to the left of the Democratic Party has with her.
posted by Artw at 9:20 AM on August 2, 2023
posted by Artw at 9:20 AM on August 2, 2023
Calling a highly successful woman a bimbo is such classic fucking misogyny.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:29 AM on August 2, 2023 [85 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 9:29 AM on August 2, 2023 [85 favorites]
Speaking as a leftist type who has a dislike for Harris there is no way I'd ever call her a bimbo or think of her as such.
Begin with the part where its a misogynist slur, but also, she's not dumb. I've got a lot of objections to Harris but no way would I ever say she's a bimbo.
As for elections in general and the abomination that is the Electoral College, suggesting that we fix it by having liberals move to shithole states is not ever going to work.
Liberal people live where they do because they don't want to be living in those terrible places, arguing that people have some sort of moral obligation to sacrifice having a decent life and move to East Jesus Nowhere Alabama in hopes that enough of them might move there and flip the state is cruel and absurd.
And dangerous. There's armed people in those places and a long history of violence committed against liberals in those places.
I don't know what the practical solution is, but I know "lulz move to Alabama" isn't it.
posted by sotonohito at 9:42 AM on August 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
Begin with the part where its a misogynist slur, but also, she's not dumb. I've got a lot of objections to Harris but no way would I ever say she's a bimbo.
As for elections in general and the abomination that is the Electoral College, suggesting that we fix it by having liberals move to shithole states is not ever going to work.
Liberal people live where they do because they don't want to be living in those terrible places, arguing that people have some sort of moral obligation to sacrifice having a decent life and move to East Jesus Nowhere Alabama in hopes that enough of them might move there and flip the state is cruel and absurd.
And dangerous. There's armed people in those places and a long history of violence committed against liberals in those places.
I don't know what the practical solution is, but I know "lulz move to Alabama" isn't it.
posted by sotonohito at 9:42 AM on August 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
Funny, I don't see Harris mentioned anywhere in the indictment. Is she co-conspirator 6?
My three wishes:
1. The trial is before the election.
2. Trump testifies.
3. The trial is televised.
I want to see the meltdown. I want to see the perjury. I want to see him drain the swamp by digging his grave through the Earth's crust. He'll confess without knowing it. He will add new charges without knowing it. He'll drag everyone down with him. He'll blame everyone but himself. If he thinks Baron can go to prison in his place, he'll blame him. And some of it will stick, other people will be charged.
And he won't be able to stop. He never can. Camera lenses shoot dishonesty rays at him, he can't help it, he must lie. The worst thing that could happen for his case is if he takes the stand and someone points a camera at him.
And do it before the election. A thousand campaign ads born every minute. Everything he says will be the dumbest shit you've ever heard until the next thing he says. All clippable. I want to see the megamix, set to a throbbing bounce-wit-me RnB track. I will dance to it and be in love.
Take the stand Trump. Don't listen to the lawyers, you're a winner, you've got this.
posted by adept256 at 9:46 AM on August 2, 2023 [52 favorites]
My three wishes:
1. The trial is before the election.
2. Trump testifies.
3. The trial is televised.
I want to see the meltdown. I want to see the perjury. I want to see him drain the swamp by digging his grave through the Earth's crust. He'll confess without knowing it. He will add new charges without knowing it. He'll drag everyone down with him. He'll blame everyone but himself. If he thinks Baron can go to prison in his place, he'll blame him. And some of it will stick, other people will be charged.
And he won't be able to stop. He never can. Camera lenses shoot dishonesty rays at him, he can't help it, he must lie. The worst thing that could happen for his case is if he takes the stand and someone points a camera at him.
And do it before the election. A thousand campaign ads born every minute. Everything he says will be the dumbest shit you've ever heard until the next thing he says. All clippable. I want to see the megamix, set to a throbbing bounce-wit-me RnB track. I will dance to it and be in love.
Take the stand Trump. Don't listen to the lawyers, you're a winner, you've got this.
posted by adept256 at 9:46 AM on August 2, 2023 [52 favorites]
USA v. Trump 2: Prosecution for attempted Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo
Most people in this thread probably know this already, but OP did not just make a jokey title for this post: "boogaloo" is new far right slang for Civil War.
posted by HeroZero at 9:50 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Most people in this thread probably know this already, but OP did not just make a jokey title for this post: "boogaloo" is new far right slang for Civil War.
posted by HeroZero at 9:50 AM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
The 2024 election will be entirely about... Kamala Harris.
Republicans will try this as a line of "attack" during the election, I'm sure, but narratives are tricky and slippery things, and actually hard to control. So just because whatever campaign that Republicans end up running for president in 2024 may try to focus on attacking Harris, the simple fact is that there are much more compelling things happening right now. Just ask the extremely frustrated people in the right-wing media machine who can't get any traction on the Hunter Biden stuff; they've been trying like hell for years and now that there's a little bit of fire to go with all that smoke, nobody seems to care outside of the shouty echo chambers--because holy shit, did you hear about the latest Trump indictment?
posted by LooseFilter at 9:51 AM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Republicans will try this as a line of "attack" during the election, I'm sure, but narratives are tricky and slippery things, and actually hard to control. So just because whatever campaign that Republicans end up running for president in 2024 may try to focus on attacking Harris, the simple fact is that there are much more compelling things happening right now. Just ask the extremely frustrated people in the right-wing media machine who can't get any traction on the Hunter Biden stuff; they've been trying like hell for years and now that there's a little bit of fire to go with all that smoke, nobody seems to care outside of the shouty echo chambers--because holy shit, did you hear about the latest Trump indictment?
posted by LooseFilter at 9:51 AM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Funny, I don't see Harris mentioned anywhere in the indictment. Is she co-conspirator 6?
Good god, thank you. Been flagging all of these Harris comments as derail.
posted by sundrop at 9:53 AM on August 2, 2023 [29 favorites]
Good god, thank you. Been flagging all of these Harris comments as derail.
posted by sundrop at 9:53 AM on August 2, 2023 [29 favorites]
I want to see the meltdown.
A "you can't handle the truth" moment wouldn't undo the millions of people Trump sickened and killed in the United States, or repair the damage he has done to our democracy and to others, but I suppose it would be entertaining for those few fleeting moments.
"boogaloo" is new far right slang for Civil War
Wow. Republicans once again run another good thing in the world into the ground *shrug*
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:57 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
A "you can't handle the truth" moment wouldn't undo the millions of people Trump sickened and killed in the United States, or repair the damage he has done to our democracy and to others, but I suppose it would be entertaining for those few fleeting moments.
"boogaloo" is new far right slang for Civil War
Wow. Republicans once again run another good thing in the world into the ground *shrug*
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:57 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
The funniest part of the whole Hunter Biden thing is he’s basically just another shitty fails on the reaction of most democrats to him going to jail in the event if anything real and tangible coming out would be “good, fuck him”.
Oh, you say the IRS should be more stringent and should go after rich failsons more? Great, make that happen. Also stop defining them.
posted by Artw at 9:59 AM on August 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
Oh, you say the IRS should be more stringent and should go after rich failsons more? Great, make that happen. Also stop defining them.
posted by Artw at 9:59 AM on August 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
So this has me thinking about the broader circumstances of insurrection.
If, say, Trump was elected to a second term through a corrupt process (R state leg substituting electors, for example), is the plan to riot, or just eat the loss? Is violence ok if you're actually in the right and they are stealing our democracy?
Because "there might be riots in the streets" did seem to give pause to Meadows and Philbin.
posted by ryanrs at 10:00 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
If, say, Trump was elected to a second term through a corrupt process (R state leg substituting electors, for example), is the plan to riot, or just eat the loss? Is violence ok if you're actually in the right and they are stealing our democracy?
Because "there might be riots in the streets" did seem to give pause to Meadows and Philbin.
posted by ryanrs at 10:00 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Completely unknown territory. Certainly at the time, in the wake of the George Floyd protests, Americas progressive majority probably seemed a lot less passive than republicans would rightly or wrongly assume them to be usually.
posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Call me an optimist, but I don't think there will be any sort of civil war. Most of this is macho chest thumping by right wing Gravy Seals. They're going to scream and cry, but go back to work on Monday because bills are real.
A few crazies might do some terrorist acts, and probably will. But I don't see any of this becoming a civil war.
posted by Fleebnork at 10:23 AM on August 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
A few crazies might do some terrorist acts, and probably will. But I don't see any of this becoming a civil war.
posted by Fleebnork at 10:23 AM on August 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
"The Pope Villages. How many divisions have they?"
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:30 AM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:30 AM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
In terms of how many far right proudboy types you can mass in one spot, Jan 6th was probably it. And that was with minimal resistance from counter protestors and law enforcement.
Which is not to say the coup threat doesn’t remain alarmingly real, it just will employ different tactics. I can see them going after smaller targets earlier.
posted by Artw at 10:41 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Which is not to say the coup threat doesn’t remain alarmingly real, it just will employ different tactics. I can see them going after smaller targets earlier.
posted by Artw at 10:41 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
i really have to wonder how they're going to seat an impartial jury
The same way they did for related January 6 trials. Jurors don't need to have neutral feelings about the accused, they just have to be open-minded about the legal charges. "[Judge] Mehta repeatedly swatted away challenges to several of the potential jurors by defense lawyers who worried that some of the candidates’ gut responses to Jan. 6, or the view of the Oath Keepers they had formed from media coverage, would be impossible to overcome."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:45 AM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
The same way they did for related January 6 trials. Jurors don't need to have neutral feelings about the accused, they just have to be open-minded about the legal charges. "[Judge] Mehta repeatedly swatted away challenges to several of the potential jurors by defense lawyers who worried that some of the candidates’ gut responses to Jan. 6, or the view of the Oath Keepers they had formed from media coverage, would be impossible to overcome."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:45 AM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
In terms of how many far right proudboy types you can mass in one spot, Jan 6th was probably it. And that was with minimal resistance from counter protestors and law enforcement.
Plus supported by a level of active collusion caused by Trump appointees (like the crazy delays in getting any kind of tactical reinforcements to the area). And even with that, they didn't get much result other than vandalism, and they all shuffled out compliantly when the people with rifles showed up.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:01 AM on August 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Plus supported by a level of active collusion caused by Trump appointees (like the crazy delays in getting any kind of tactical reinforcements to the area). And even with that, they didn't get much result other than vandalism, and they all shuffled out compliantly when the people with rifles showed up.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:01 AM on August 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
soundguy99: “The identity of Co-Conspirator 6 is unclear. ”“Smith Charges Trump with Insurrection, Sedition, and Terrorism”—Countdown with Keith Olbermann, 02 August 2023
B-Block (21:51) YOU ARE NUMBER SIX: It can't all be gloom and doom. We have been unintentionally given a Wordle-like game to play. Let's call it "Trumple." There are six unidentified, unindicted co-conspirators in the case. Four are easily recognized: Rudy, John Eastman, Jeffrey Clark, and Sidney Powell. The fifth is a little tougher: Kenneth Cheseboro. But who is number six? Experts, sources and crowd-votes disagree. But I think I've found him. LET'S PLAY TRUMPLE.posted by ob1quixote at 11:39 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I listened to Keith Olbermann for five minutes so you don't have to:
He dangles the prospect of #6 being, among others, Ginni Thomas, then says it's Bernard Kerik, who might be meeting with the special counsel sometime soon and, in the meantime, is making tweets that suggest his intent to testify that, on January 6, the Trump team was still looking for possible election fraud.
posted by box at 11:53 AM on August 2, 2023
He dangles the prospect of #6 being, among others, Ginni Thomas, then says it's Bernard Kerik, who might be meeting with the special counsel sometime soon and, in the meantime, is making tweets that suggest his intent to testify that, on January 6, the Trump team was still looking for possible election fraud.
posted by box at 11:53 AM on August 2, 2023
Take the stand Trump. Don't listen to the lawyers, you're a winner, you've got this.
posted by adept256 at 9:46 AM on August 2
Somebody on Rachel Maddow last night pointed out that the only way for anyone to refute what appears to be the testimony of Pence on his conversations with Trump, is to put Trump on the stand. And there's no way that his lawyers would do that because Trump would perjure himself. But I really REALLY hope Trump insists on testifying. And I get to watch one of the Jack Smith team take him apart. That would be very satisfying.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:08 PM on August 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 9:46 AM on August 2
Somebody on Rachel Maddow last night pointed out that the only way for anyone to refute what appears to be the testimony of Pence on his conversations with Trump, is to put Trump on the stand. And there's no way that his lawyers would do that because Trump would perjure himself. But I really REALLY hope Trump insists on testifying. And I get to watch one of the Jack Smith team take him apart. That would be very satisfying.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:08 PM on August 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
From the NYT on what's behind mystery door number 6:
An email sent by Boris Epshteyn, an adviser to the Trump campaign, matches the description of an email that the indictment attributed to one of six unnamed co-conspirators.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:14 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
An email sent by Boris Epshteyn, an adviser to the Trump campaign, matches the description of an email that the indictment attributed to one of six unnamed co-conspirators.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:14 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Whoever the Six are, they eventually need to be placed into a handy mnemonic along the lines of:
CONVICTED
PERJURED
LIED
CONVICTED
PERJURED
SURVIVED
posted by gurple at 12:32 PM on August 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
CONVICTED
PERJURED
LIED
CONVICTED
PERJURED
SURVIVED
posted by gurple at 12:32 PM on August 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
I was kinda hoping for something easier, more like:
CONVICTED
CONVICTED
CONVICTED
CONVICTED
CONVICTED
CONVICTED, DIED (of old age, in prison)
posted by jedicus at 12:37 PM on August 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
CONVICTED
CONVICTED
CONVICTED
CONVICTED
CONVICTED
CONVICTED, DIED (of old age, in prison)
posted by jedicus at 12:37 PM on August 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
Of course Russia is loving this (Trump said he'd stop support for Ukraine) and its operatives are busy stirring the pot on social media. Manipulating minds with lies and propaganda has become easier and more effective than ever. I wouldn't count on a large percentage of the population suddenly studying facts and becoming rational. Civil violence over the months leading up to the next election is not out of the question, no matter the results of any trials. The world looks on...
posted by binturong at 12:49 PM on August 2, 2023
posted by binturong at 12:49 PM on August 2, 2023
I think they've had the cooperation of Mark Meadows for a while now? Cassidy Hutchinson was his aide. She gave dozens of hours of testimony to the January 6 Committee in 2022. Hutchinson also testified at the televised hearing on June 28, 2022. Hutchinson testified that Trump and Meadows were told some individuals were carrying weapons, including firearms, and therefore could not clear magnetometers to enter the rally. Trump insisted that he didn't care if his supporters had weapons and tried to order the magnetometers removed, saying "They're not here to hurt me." The committee played radio transmissions of police warning of people with guns, including AR-15s.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:52 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:52 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ok, say that this process is successful - TFG is convicted - then what? Is there a special jail for this level of traitors? Aren’t a lot of regular and military jails run by people who love TFG?
May I introduce to you to: ADX Florence. “The “supermax” U.S. Penitentiary Administrative Maximum, also known as ADX Florence, in Colorado, holds the most dangerous federal prisoners: gang leaders, those who've murdered fellow prisoners or prison guards, high-profile criminals, those who could pose a threat to national security and more.” (Emphasis added.)
What? A girl can dream! Lauren Boebert could go visit him!
For real though, I haven’t given up hope on a treason charge. This same team just added charges to the classified documents case. Trump’s team is incredibly inept, and any additional evidence uncovered following the indictment, or any statements made by Trump because he CANNOT keep his mouth closed, could result in additional charges.
posted by susiswimmer at 12:56 PM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
May I introduce to you to: ADX Florence. “The “supermax” U.S. Penitentiary Administrative Maximum, also known as ADX Florence, in Colorado, holds the most dangerous federal prisoners: gang leaders, those who've murdered fellow prisoners or prison guards, high-profile criminals, those who could pose a threat to national security and more.” (Emphasis added.)
What? A girl can dream! Lauren Boebert could go visit him!
For real though, I haven’t given up hope on a treason charge. This same team just added charges to the classified documents case. Trump’s team is incredibly inept, and any additional evidence uncovered following the indictment, or any statements made by Trump because he CANNOT keep his mouth closed, could result in additional charges.
posted by susiswimmer at 12:56 PM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
Send him to Malta. That'll work!!
posted by zerobyproxy at 1:25 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by zerobyproxy at 1:25 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I hope he continues to employ lawyers who don't know the difference between the rules of civil procedure and the rules of criminal procedure. It should make everything go that much quicker.
posted by wierdo at 1:30 PM on August 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 1:30 PM on August 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
He does seem to "hire" really bad lawyers...
posted by Windopaene at 1:33 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Windopaene at 1:33 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Somebody on Rachel Maddow last night pointed out that the only way for anyone to refute what appears to be the testimony of Pence on his conversations with Trump, is to put Trump on the stand.
I think that's going to be the case for a lot of the testimony, especially if you have co-conspirators either cooperating or taking the fifth. The defense can try to discredit the witnesses, but I would guess that there's strong corroboration for many of the statements quoted in the indictment (e.g. texts, contemporary notes, multiple witnesses).
posted by mr_roboto at 1:45 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think that's going to be the case for a lot of the testimony, especially if you have co-conspirators either cooperating or taking the fifth. The defense can try to discredit the witnesses, but I would guess that there's strong corroboration for many of the statements quoted in the indictment (e.g. texts, contemporary notes, multiple witnesses).
posted by mr_roboto at 1:45 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ok, say that this process is successful - TFG is convicted - then what? Is there a special jail for this level of traitors? Aren’t a lot of regular and military jails run by people who love TFG?
probably even the nicest treatment in the laxest federal prison would be torture for him, the guy owns his own 757, he's not going to react well to any sort of confinement. And prison is pretty brutal on anyone his age, anyway.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:47 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
probably even the nicest treatment in the laxest federal prison would be torture for him, the guy owns his own 757, he's not going to react well to any sort of confinement. And prison is pretty brutal on anyone his age, anyway.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:47 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
He's never going to prison. The most likely consequence of a conviction is home confinement in some way.
posted by suelac at 1:55 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by suelac at 1:55 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
he's not going to react well to any sort of confinement.
Well, you know, I have pointed out before there is a precedent in Portugal...
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:56 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well, you know, I have pointed out before there is a precedent in Portugal...
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:56 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I will make tiramisù for every one of you if he spends a single day in prison.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:57 PM on August 2, 2023 [40 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 1:57 PM on August 2, 2023 [40 favorites]
Lengthy and pretty hilarious twitter comment stream on the indictments (unwrapped version).
45 tells the georgia secretary of state that he needs to *"find"* eleven thousand, seven hundred and eighty votes.posted by Kat Allison at 1:59 PM on August 2, 2023 [27 favorites]
not 12k. not 11.5k. not "11k give or take."
he needs to *find* *exactly* *eleven thousand* *seven hundred* and *eighty* votes.
there's this fantastic moment in the movie "excess baggage" when benicio del toro looks at alicia silverstone and says, "how stupid do you think i am?" and she responds, "idunno. how stupid is there?"
apropos of everything.
apropos of everything.
Only if he ever suffers consequences. Why would he fear anything at this point?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:11 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Only if he ever suffers consequences. Why would he fear anything at this point?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:11 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
He's never going to prison. The most likely consequence of a conviction is home confinement in some way.
I don't know. But I have a sense/feeling that the judicial community really, really wants to get him to prison. Obviously there are the Trump lawyers, and my impression is that they really want those in prison too.
I am not an American and I am not a lawyer, but my feeling is that if Trump gets out of this, the popular trust in the entire legal system is dead, and then how do you even get work done?
Obviously the whole Trump phenomena is the result of decades of corrosion of the legal system. It didn't happen just now, and Trump has benefitted from that corrosion and corruption. The undermining of the Supreme Court is another aspect of it.
posted by mumimor at 2:20 PM on August 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
"If Steve Bannon and I had organized that, we would have won. Not to mention, it would have been armed." --MTG
posted by bink at 2:33 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by bink at 2:33 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Marjorie Taylor Greene had been in Congress all of three days on Jan. 6, 2021; texts she sent to Mark Meadows via CNN, with highlights:
Dec. 31, 2020: "Good morning Mark, I’m here in DC. We have to get organized for the 6th, I would like to meet with Rudy Giuliani again. We didn’t get to speak with him long. Also anyone who can help. We are getting a lot of members on board. And we need to lay out the best case for each state.”
Jan. 6, 2021, 2:28 p.m: "Mark I was just told there is an active shooter on the first floor of the Capitol Please tell the President to calm people This isn’t the way to solve anything"
Jan. 6, 2021, 3:52 p.m. "Mark we don’t think these attackers are our people. We think they are Antifa. Dressed like Trump supporters."
Jan. 7: “Yesterday was a terrible day. We tried everything we could in our objection to the 6 states. I’m sorry nothing worked. I don’t think that President Trump caused the attack on the Capitol. It’s not his fault" & "Absolutely no excuse and I fully denounce all of it, but after shut downs all year and a stolen election, people are saying that they have no other choice.”
Jan. 17: “In our private chat with only Members, several are saying the only way to save our Republic is for Trump to call for Marshall (sic) law. I don’t know on those things. I just wanted you to tell him. They stole this election. We all know. They will destroy our country next. Please tell him to declassify as much as possible so we can go after Biden and anyone else!”
Again, Meadows does not appear to respond.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:59 PM on August 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
Dec. 31, 2020: "Good morning Mark, I’m here in DC. We have to get organized for the 6th, I would like to meet with Rudy Giuliani again. We didn’t get to speak with him long. Also anyone who can help. We are getting a lot of members on board. And we need to lay out the best case for each state.”
Jan. 6, 2021, 2:28 p.m: "Mark I was just told there is an active shooter on the first floor of the Capitol Please tell the President to calm people This isn’t the way to solve anything"
Jan. 6, 2021, 3:52 p.m. "Mark we don’t think these attackers are our people. We think they are Antifa. Dressed like Trump supporters."
Jan. 7: “Yesterday was a terrible day. We tried everything we could in our objection to the 6 states. I’m sorry nothing worked. I don’t think that President Trump caused the attack on the Capitol. It’s not his fault" & "Absolutely no excuse and I fully denounce all of it, but after shut downs all year and a stolen election, people are saying that they have no other choice.”
Jan. 17: “In our private chat with only Members, several are saying the only way to save our Republic is for Trump to call for Marshall (sic) law. I don’t know on those things. I just wanted you to tell him. They stole this election. We all know. They will destroy our country next. Please tell him to declassify as much as possible so we can go after Biden and anyone else!”
Again, Meadows does not appear to respond.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:59 PM on August 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
Jan. 6, 2021, 3:52 p.m. "Mark we don’t think these attackers are our people. We think they are Antifa. Dressed like Trump supporters."
By jove, she's such a fucking moron.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 3:09 PM on August 2, 2023 [25 favorites]
By jove, she's such a fucking moron.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 3:09 PM on August 2, 2023 [25 favorites]
She is indeed. When do the MTG indictments start rolling in?
posted by mygothlaundry at 3:13 PM on August 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by mygothlaundry at 3:13 PM on August 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
> That's a good point. Also worth pointing out that the proud boys et al didn't show up with their rifles in the first place.
They had them stashed in a hotel nearby, with the hopes to exploit an opening.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:16 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
They had them stashed in a hotel nearby, with the hopes to exploit an opening.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:16 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Over a dozen people, including a Proud Boys leader, were charged with gun possession violations in connection with the January 6th riot. (Those are in addition to the Oath Keepers weapons stash in the hotel, mentioned above.)
posted by mbrubeck at 3:46 PM on August 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 3:46 PM on August 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
I’m not sure we ever heard anything conclusive on who brought the pipebombs?
posted by Artw at 3:47 PM on August 2, 2023
posted by Artw at 3:47 PM on August 2, 2023
There was also the gallows and the zip ties. There were people there more than willing to do more serious violence.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:21 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:21 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Maybe we can trade Trump and MTG to Russia in exchange for Snowden (defenestrations sold separately). I mean, the United States executed the Rosenbergs for much much much less, but we could at least get those two traitors back to their desired homelands.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:59 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:59 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe we can trade Trump and MTG to Russia
Whoa, wait a minute! Haven't the poor Russians suffered ENOUGH??
posted by Floydd at 5:20 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Whoa, wait a minute! Haven't the poor Russians suffered ENOUGH??
posted by Floydd at 5:20 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I will make tiramisù for every one of you if he spends a single day in prison.
I love tiramisu, so here's hoping!
> That's a good point. Also worth pointing out that the proud boys et al didn't show up with their rifles in the first place.
They had them stashed in a hotel nearby, with the hopes to exploit an opening.
Sure, they had a small cache of weapons in the hotel, but when push came to shove they all wussed out. Lots of tough talk ahead of time, but zero follow-through when faced with actual tactical units and troops. If there hadn't been collusion from the Trump administration that delayed the tactical response, the rioters would have caved even faster.
It's easy to look tough when you show up in military cosplay outside of drag reading hour, but there isn't a "militia" in the country that is capable of or interested in facing off with the local National Guard, much less the active duty military. The hope of the insurrectionists was in getting full collusion, but that wasn't happening. There was never doubt about the loyalties of the FBI tactical units or the DC National Guard; the doubt came from the chain-of-command delays from collusionist figures, where it took time to bypass them and get the response going.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:27 PM on August 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
I love tiramisu, so here's hoping!
> That's a good point. Also worth pointing out that the proud boys et al didn't show up with their rifles in the first place.
They had them stashed in a hotel nearby, with the hopes to exploit an opening.
Sure, they had a small cache of weapons in the hotel, but when push came to shove they all wussed out. Lots of tough talk ahead of time, but zero follow-through when faced with actual tactical units and troops. If there hadn't been collusion from the Trump administration that delayed the tactical response, the rioters would have caved even faster.
It's easy to look tough when you show up in military cosplay outside of drag reading hour, but there isn't a "militia" in the country that is capable of or interested in facing off with the local National Guard, much less the active duty military. The hope of the insurrectionists was in getting full collusion, but that wasn't happening. There was never doubt about the loyalties of the FBI tactical units or the DC National Guard; the doubt came from the chain-of-command delays from collusionist figures, where it took time to bypass them and get the response going.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:27 PM on August 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
I keep wondering how narrowly we escaped widespread violence.
If Trump really had been brave and willing to take the chance could he have ACTUALLY energized his followers enough to capture and/or kill several members of Congress. And presumably then declare himself to be the winner and expel all Democrats from Congress or whatever?
I have no idea, and that really worries me. How willing are the Republicans to openly abandon democracy and embrace autocracy?
posted by sotonohito at 5:29 PM on August 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
If Trump really had been brave and willing to take the chance could he have ACTUALLY energized his followers enough to capture and/or kill several members of Congress. And presumably then declare himself to be the winner and expel all Democrats from Congress or whatever?
I have no idea, and that really worries me. How willing are the Republicans to openly abandon democracy and embrace autocracy?
posted by sotonohito at 5:29 PM on August 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
How willing are the Republicans to openly abandon democracy and embrace autocracy?
Nearly all of these traitors who have been interviewed on BBC or other mainstream media have stated that they would vote again for someone who has committed treason against the United States.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:33 PM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
Nearly all of these traitors who have been interviewed on BBC or other mainstream media have stated that they would vote again for someone who has committed treason against the United States.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:33 PM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
The time period covered in the indictment coincides with the rollout with the vaccine. I recall reading that during this time he tweeted about the vaccine 3 times and the election over one billion times. There is this NYT article from November 2020:
In the three weeks since Election Day, President Trump’s most visible presence has been on Twitter. Since Nov. 3, he has posted some 550 tweets — about three-quarters of which attempted to undermine the integrity of the 2020 election results.
...
As Mr. Trump’s attacks continue, the coronavirus pandemic rages on, worse than ever. More than 25,000 people in the United States have died from Covid in the past three weeks.
Over 400 tweets by Nov 24 about the stolen election. Barely any about the vaccine, at a time when over 8000 are dying per week.
There goes the mob, I must follow them for I am their leader is his leadership style. If the cult is anti-vax, he's not going to be a vaccine cheerleader. But this is beyond that - his obsession with the election was his only concern. Nothing was more important than that. More than a thousand people were dying per day, and all he can talk about is poor me.
I'd like to see some justice for that. How about, um, 330 million counts of attempted murder. Not just bungling the vaccine rollout, he was dangerous from the very beginning. He could have made a fortune selling MAGA masks, and thousands of his supporters would still be alive. That's real - the stats are showing that covid deaths are higher among republicans. He truly got people killed.
posted by adept256 at 5:41 PM on August 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
In the three weeks since Election Day, President Trump’s most visible presence has been on Twitter. Since Nov. 3, he has posted some 550 tweets — about three-quarters of which attempted to undermine the integrity of the 2020 election results.
...
As Mr. Trump’s attacks continue, the coronavirus pandemic rages on, worse than ever. More than 25,000 people in the United States have died from Covid in the past three weeks.
Over 400 tweets by Nov 24 about the stolen election. Barely any about the vaccine, at a time when over 8000 are dying per week.
There goes the mob, I must follow them for I am their leader is his leadership style. If the cult is anti-vax, he's not going to be a vaccine cheerleader. But this is beyond that - his obsession with the election was his only concern. Nothing was more important than that. More than a thousand people were dying per day, and all he can talk about is poor me.
I'd like to see some justice for that. How about, um, 330 million counts of attempted murder. Not just bungling the vaccine rollout, he was dangerous from the very beginning. He could have made a fortune selling MAGA masks, and thousands of his supporters would still be alive. That's real - the stats are showing that covid deaths are higher among republicans. He truly got people killed.
posted by adept256 at 5:41 PM on August 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
Eh. I’d buy that more if Biden weren’t just as bad, possibly worse on COVID. We have truly been abandoned by everyone on that.
posted by Artw at 5:46 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:46 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't remember Biden actively contradicting medical advice. Trump made that calculation - let people die, or upset the base. He chose his popularity.
posted by adept256 at 5:54 PM on August 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 5:54 PM on August 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
I have no idea, and that really worries me. How willing are the Republicans to openly abandon democracy and embrace autocracy?
Trump's shenanigans in 2020 showed that while many-to-most are willing to rewrite the rules to favor themselves and nibble around the edges, most Republicans are as yet unwilling to throw out the entire democratic process. At least not for that fucking guy.
Dipshits like MTG and Boebert, Trump and DeSantis are notable precisely because they give no shits about their oath of office or not openly and notoriously using state power to persecute their political opponents. The rest of them at least want the appearance of a functioning democracy and would prefer to have real elections that they just happen to always win without all that messy stuff about punishing people for voting the wrong way or changing the rules after the fact to make the thumb on the scale too obvious.
Problem is that they've gotten the leopards too riled up and now that they're nosily eating faces it's hard to do anything the quiet way since the less nutty faction of the party is busy trying to keep the leopards from eating their faces and the only way to do that is with more red meat. Leopards don't understand subtlety.
posted by wierdo at 5:55 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Trump's shenanigans in 2020 showed that while many-to-most are willing to rewrite the rules to favor themselves and nibble around the edges, most Republicans are as yet unwilling to throw out the entire democratic process. At least not for that fucking guy.
Dipshits like MTG and Boebert, Trump and DeSantis are notable precisely because they give no shits about their oath of office or not openly and notoriously using state power to persecute their political opponents. The rest of them at least want the appearance of a functioning democracy and would prefer to have real elections that they just happen to always win without all that messy stuff about punishing people for voting the wrong way or changing the rules after the fact to make the thumb on the scale too obvious.
Problem is that they've gotten the leopards too riled up and now that they're nosily eating faces it's hard to do anything the quiet way since the less nutty faction of the party is busy trying to keep the leopards from eating their faces and the only way to do that is with more red meat. Leopards don't understand subtlety.
posted by wierdo at 5:55 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't remember Biden actively contradicting medical advice. Trump made that calculation - let people die, or upset the base. He chose his popularity.
Covid's over, throw out those masks, back to the office.
posted by Artw at 6:08 PM on August 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
Covid's over, throw out those masks, back to the office.
posted by Artw at 6:08 PM on August 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
... American democracy ...
You can only pick one.
posted by dg at 6:10 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
You can only pick one.
posted by dg at 6:10 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Eh. I’d buy that more if Biden weren’t just as bad, possibly worse on COVID. We have truly been abandoned by everyone on that.
This is so wrong that basically it is coming from another reality. It's the same sort of lame "whataboutism" as when Trump supporters say "yeah, but Hunter Biden, and Biden Sr kept classified documents, so they are all equally corrupt." The two things are not actually the same, even if there's a rhetorical way to set them next to each other.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:49 PM on August 2, 2023 [72 favorites]
This is so wrong that basically it is coming from another reality. It's the same sort of lame "whataboutism" as when Trump supporters say "yeah, but Hunter Biden, and Biden Sr kept classified documents, so they are all equally corrupt." The two things are not actually the same, even if there's a rhetorical way to set them next to each other.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:49 PM on August 2, 2023 [72 favorites]
You can't honestly think that Biden is worse on Covid than Trump was. Please.
posted by rikschell at 6:51 PM on August 2, 2023 [58 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 6:51 PM on August 2, 2023 [58 favorites]
Meh. I said what I said. Trump is garbage fir lots of other reasins, including huge amounts of waste and corruption around PPP loans, but Biden’s not in any way been better on policy and may just through the length of time he’s been trying bury COVID be worse. His team on this is awful.
posted by Artw at 6:54 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 6:54 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
brb need to inject some horse tranquilizer/bleach mixture and shove an ultraviolet light bulb up my ass
posted by Flunkie at 6:59 PM on August 2, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 6:59 PM on August 2, 2023 [27 favorites]
sure remember that time when brandon told us to take the horse dewormer to cure the woke yessir
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:01 PM on August 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:01 PM on August 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
number of GOP legislators — and Trump himself — get funded under the table by Russia;
On the bright side Russia is a lot busier with Russian matters at the moment and the sanctions have put a crimp on how much buying off they can do.
He does seem to "hire" really bad lawyers...
Everyone with an ounce of sense knows he doesn't pay. The only ones willing to work with him have ulterior motives worth eating their fees. And also worth associating their names/firms with the toxic Trump brand.
probably even the nicest treatment in the laxest federal prison would be torture for him, the guy owns his own 757, he's not going to react well to any sort of confinement. And prison is pretty brutal on anyone his age, anyway.
He also has some, uh, unusual dietary and hygiene habits that aren't going to translate well to conditions in even the.most club fed of facilities. But ya I can't see him getting anything more severe than house arrest to his fucking mansion with attached actual country club. If only because national security concerns.
There was also the gallows and the zip ties. There were people there more than willing to do more serious violence.
But basically unwilling to have violence committed upon themselves.
posted by Mitheral at 7:35 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the bright side Russia is a lot busier with Russian matters at the moment and the sanctions have put a crimp on how much buying off they can do.
He does seem to "hire" really bad lawyers...
Everyone with an ounce of sense knows he doesn't pay. The only ones willing to work with him have ulterior motives worth eating their fees. And also worth associating their names/firms with the toxic Trump brand.
probably even the nicest treatment in the laxest federal prison would be torture for him, the guy owns his own 757, he's not going to react well to any sort of confinement. And prison is pretty brutal on anyone his age, anyway.
He also has some, uh, unusual dietary and hygiene habits that aren't going to translate well to conditions in even the.most club fed of facilities. But ya I can't see him getting anything more severe than house arrest to his fucking mansion with attached actual country club. If only because national security concerns.
There was also the gallows and the zip ties. There were people there more than willing to do more serious violence.
But basically unwilling to have violence committed upon themselves.
posted by Mitheral at 7:35 PM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Re: covid, it's easy to recognize that almost anyone would have handled the initial response better than the orange menace.
But it's also easy to recognize thar masks should be required in hospitals. Now. By federal mandate. Probably airplanes too, but hospitals and medical facilities is just beyond no- brainer. And the current administration has let us down very badly on that front. Like, you can go to a hospital for a broken bone, then die of covid.
Back to the toddler, I'm so glad for the indictment but have to say I was hoping for sedition. Maybe in a superseding indictment.
posted by Dashy at 7:56 PM on August 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
But it's also easy to recognize thar masks should be required in hospitals. Now. By federal mandate. Probably airplanes too, but hospitals and medical facilities is just beyond no- brainer. And the current administration has let us down very badly on that front. Like, you can go to a hospital for a broken bone, then die of covid.
Back to the toddler, I'm so glad for the indictment but have to say I was hoping for sedition. Maybe in a superseding indictment.
posted by Dashy at 7:56 PM on August 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
But it's also easy to recognize thar masks should be required in hospitals. Now. By federal mandate. Probably airplanes too, but hospitals and medical facilities is just beyond no- brainer. And the current administration has let us down very badly on that front.
I guess that we're going to forget that the removal of federal mask mandates was thanks to a Trump-appointed judge.
And then people wonder why the judiciary acts like they're unaccountable.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:09 PM on August 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
I guess that we're going to forget that the removal of federal mask mandates was thanks to a Trump-appointed judge.
And then people wonder why the judiciary acts like they're unaccountable.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:09 PM on August 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
... and we just leave Trump era policy in place? Uh huh.
posted by Dashy at 8:33 PM on August 2, 2023
posted by Dashy at 8:33 PM on August 2, 2023
... and we just leave Trump era policy in place? Uh huh.
First off, nobody is saying that, so you can put the strawman down, thanks.
Second, blame is like fertilizer - in order for it to work, you need to put it where it belongs. And the reality is that it was reactionary jurists that gutted mask mandates.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:42 PM on August 2, 2023 [16 favorites]
First off, nobody is saying that, so you can put the strawman down, thanks.
Second, blame is like fertilizer - in order for it to work, you need to put it where it belongs. And the reality is that it was reactionary jurists that gutted mask mandates.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:42 PM on August 2, 2023 [16 favorites]
The Supreme Court tossed out student loan forgiveness, and Biden came out with more the.next.day.
posted by Dashy at 9:00 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Dashy at 9:00 PM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Supreme Court tossed out student loan forgiveness, and Biden came out with more the.next.day.
Why yes, that orange is rather different from the apple we're discussing. With student loan forgiveness, the Biden Administration was able to have a fallback plan because there was a secondary legal path for them to take - they started with the HEROES Act path as that would have been faster, as the path they're taking now requires a lengthy hearing period. With mask mandates, the judge struck at the core legal rationale for them, which left the Administration with no path forward.
Plus, blaming the Administration for the courts being reactionary asses undermines holding the courts accountable.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:09 PM on August 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
Why yes, that orange is rather different from the apple we're discussing. With student loan forgiveness, the Biden Administration was able to have a fallback plan because there was a secondary legal path for them to take - they started with the HEROES Act path as that would have been faster, as the path they're taking now requires a lengthy hearing period. With mask mandates, the judge struck at the core legal rationale for them, which left the Administration with no path forward.
Plus, blaming the Administration for the courts being reactionary asses undermines holding the courts accountable.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:09 PM on August 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
We're just gonna disagree here, so I'm out of this derail.
posted by Dashy at 9:12 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dashy at 9:12 PM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
What countries are currently requiring masks on airplanes? I think the US is pretty much in place with the rest of the world on mask requirements.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:12 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 10:12 PM on August 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Surprised we're getting such dumb derails here.
posted by blue shadows at 11:53 PM on August 2, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by blue shadows at 11:53 PM on August 2, 2023 [28 favorites]
Sorry to contribute to the derail, but there are some facts that should be held in mind when comparing Trump to Biden (or probably any other normal president).
Here in Europe, people no longer wear masks, because COVID19 is no longer an emergency. It's still here, but far the most people are vaccinated and the hospitals are no longer strained over their capacity. There is very little or no excess mortality, depending on the country. A whole bunch of my aunt's friends caught it last week, they isolate like they are supposed to, but they are all vaccinated so the symptoms are mild. They are OK.
When the Biden administration ended the public health emergency in May, it was based on similar reasoning, though there are still more COVID19 deaths in the US than in the EU. I think it will always be that way, for two reasons: the US health care system and the general health of the US population -- obviously those two things are interconnected, but other factors play into the general health, like the food system and the transportation system.
The US has one of the shittiest healthcare systems in the world, and COVID19 was always going to be a big issue. The first problem with COVID19 in the US is the healthcare system, and the lack of political will in congress to change that. Any president would have to deal with that given condition.
During the pandemic, even countries with good healthcare systems needed strong leadership, to convince people that they had to lock down, wear masks and get the vaccines ASAP. Because no healthcare system was built to withstand a global epidemic. Trump chose to side with the morons who refused to lock down, to wear masks or to get vaccinated, and because of that, not only did morons do moronic things, but moronic things became acceptable. (Red) states dealt with COVID 19 in moronic ways. Leadership matters.
I believe that Trump could have been even more succesfull than any Democratic president, because the people who don't believe in science would not have trusted a Democrat. They would have trusted Trump, if he had done the right thing.
There are antivaccers in Europe too, but they are looked down upon, not normalized or heroized by the government, so they are a smaller fraction of the population than in the US. For instance, someone counted how many Scandinavian FB users share anti-vax information and it was about 200.000. A frightening number, but less than 1% of the population. And that is in spite of Sweden having a really weird COVID 19 policy, where far too many died.
Now to pivot this all back to the subject of this thread: was Trump's COVID 19 leadership criminal neglect? I don't think so. There doesn't seem to be any legislation against ignorance or even stupidity in government in the US. If the American people elects a stupid president, they get stupid leadership. I really like that part of the indictment on page two where it states that Trump, like any American, has the right to say stupid stuff and lie. That's how the system works. Now if we find out that he was raking in bribes from meat-packing businesses or horse-medicin manufacturers, that might be different. Who knows? I think if I could decide, I would reopen the Mueller investigation rather than investigate the COVID management. It was bad, but I don't think it was criminally bad.
(Why did I just write all this? Sorry. I guess healthcare is my favorite subject).
posted by mumimor at 2:11 AM on August 3, 2023 [31 favorites]
Here in Europe, people no longer wear masks, because COVID19 is no longer an emergency. It's still here, but far the most people are vaccinated and the hospitals are no longer strained over their capacity. There is very little or no excess mortality, depending on the country. A whole bunch of my aunt's friends caught it last week, they isolate like they are supposed to, but they are all vaccinated so the symptoms are mild. They are OK.
When the Biden administration ended the public health emergency in May, it was based on similar reasoning, though there are still more COVID19 deaths in the US than in the EU. I think it will always be that way, for two reasons: the US health care system and the general health of the US population -- obviously those two things are interconnected, but other factors play into the general health, like the food system and the transportation system.
The US has one of the shittiest healthcare systems in the world, and COVID19 was always going to be a big issue. The first problem with COVID19 in the US is the healthcare system, and the lack of political will in congress to change that. Any president would have to deal with that given condition.
During the pandemic, even countries with good healthcare systems needed strong leadership, to convince people that they had to lock down, wear masks and get the vaccines ASAP. Because no healthcare system was built to withstand a global epidemic. Trump chose to side with the morons who refused to lock down, to wear masks or to get vaccinated, and because of that, not only did morons do moronic things, but moronic things became acceptable. (Red) states dealt with COVID 19 in moronic ways. Leadership matters.
I believe that Trump could have been even more succesfull than any Democratic president, because the people who don't believe in science would not have trusted a Democrat. They would have trusted Trump, if he had done the right thing.
There are antivaccers in Europe too, but they are looked down upon, not normalized or heroized by the government, so they are a smaller fraction of the population than in the US. For instance, someone counted how many Scandinavian FB users share anti-vax information and it was about 200.000. A frightening number, but less than 1% of the population. And that is in spite of Sweden having a really weird COVID 19 policy, where far too many died.
Now to pivot this all back to the subject of this thread: was Trump's COVID 19 leadership criminal neglect? I don't think so. There doesn't seem to be any legislation against ignorance or even stupidity in government in the US. If the American people elects a stupid president, they get stupid leadership. I really like that part of the indictment on page two where it states that Trump, like any American, has the right to say stupid stuff and lie. That's how the system works. Now if we find out that he was raking in bribes from meat-packing businesses or horse-medicin manufacturers, that might be different. Who knows? I think if I could decide, I would reopen the Mueller investigation rather than investigate the COVID management. It was bad, but I don't think it was criminally bad.
(Why did I just write all this? Sorry. I guess healthcare is my favorite subject).
posted by mumimor at 2:11 AM on August 3, 2023 [31 favorites]
Look if it’s going to be that kind of party, I have some thoughts about who should have won the 2008 Democratic primary.
Jk let’s not do that and let’s instead talk about the subject of the thread, which is a sitting President trying to thwart the democratic transfer of power in the US. That feels like a big enough topic to me.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 3:44 AM on August 3, 2023 [35 favorites]
Jk let’s not do that and let’s instead talk about the subject of the thread, which is a sitting President trying to thwart the democratic transfer of power in the US. That feels like a big enough topic to me.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 3:44 AM on August 3, 2023 [35 favorites]
It’s obviously so hard to find accurate reporting on these delicious indictments.
So in this duplicitous climate, I really appreciate voices like Ken White, Popehat Report/aka Mr. That’s also not RICO. His substack had a really good piece “People Are Lying To You About The Trump Indictment.” I always learn a ton whenever Ken White & Co chime in as they called out National Review’s deceitful reporting:
“National Review is lying to you about the Supreme Court and about what’s charged here. The Special Counsel charged Trump with defrauding the United States under Section 371. The Supreme Court and lower courts have repeatedly and specifically ruled that Section 371 doesn’t require a scheme to take money or property. National Review is referring to the latest in a line of cases interpreting a completely different statute, the wire fraud statute, that includes a “money or property” requirement in its text.”
We have to sift through so many crazy lies these days, just to get the basic story.
posted by edithkeeler at 5:05 AM on August 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
So in this duplicitous climate, I really appreciate voices like Ken White, Popehat Report/aka Mr. That’s also not RICO. His substack had a really good piece “People Are Lying To You About The Trump Indictment.” I always learn a ton whenever Ken White & Co chime in as they called out National Review’s deceitful reporting:
“National Review is lying to you about the Supreme Court and about what’s charged here. The Special Counsel charged Trump with defrauding the United States under Section 371. The Supreme Court and lower courts have repeatedly and specifically ruled that Section 371 doesn’t require a scheme to take money or property. National Review is referring to the latest in a line of cases interpreting a completely different statute, the wire fraud statute, that includes a “money or property” requirement in its text.”
We have to sift through so many crazy lies these days, just to get the basic story.
posted by edithkeeler at 5:05 AM on August 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
https://popehat.substack.com/p/people-are-lying-to-you-about-the
posted by sebastienbailard at 5:12 AM on August 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by sebastienbailard at 5:12 AM on August 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
I will be satisfied if Trump is kept out of the election. I don't care a lot of he's imprisoned-- punishment, especially long-delayed punishment-- doesn't work as deterance. This is about emotions, though. I don't know what best policy is.
I would like to see some way of giving Pence part credit. He's not a hero, I don't know where the dividing line for hero vs. not-hero is, and I don't see anyone calling him a hero, anyway. He was conscientious enough to insist that Biden had won and reality-based enough to remember that 1/6 was a dangerous mob. A good many people tailed those tests.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:59 AM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I would like to see some way of giving Pence part credit. He's not a hero, I don't know where the dividing line for hero vs. not-hero is, and I don't see anyone calling him a hero, anyway. He was conscientious enough to insist that Biden had won and reality-based enough to remember that 1/6 was a dangerous mob. A good many people tailed those tests.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:59 AM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
An actually scrupulous individual would have recorded the conversations for posterity, tendered their resignation, and immediately communicated Trump's mendacity to the nation. All Pence did was refuse to break the law and then downplay everything for 2 years until his book could get published.
He's a piece of shit who deserves nothing but derision. The only excuse I could possibly give him is that he would have legitimately feared for his life for speaking out in that manner. But seeing as he's one of the motherfuckers responsible for creating such an environment in this country by feeding reactionary rhetoric to domestic terrorists over the past 50 years, I don't have much sympathy.
posted by Room 101 at 7:09 AM on August 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
He's a piece of shit who deserves nothing but derision. The only excuse I could possibly give him is that he would have legitimately feared for his life for speaking out in that manner. But seeing as he's one of the motherfuckers responsible for creating such an environment in this country by feeding reactionary rhetoric to domestic terrorists over the past 50 years, I don't have much sympathy.
posted by Room 101 at 7:09 AM on August 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
Many of us have said it since 2015: Pence is really weird. I just saw him on CNN being quite fiery, which is about time, and was reminded of something I've been thinking about since Jan 6: his wife must be furious. I don't know if they do shouting fights or passive-aggressive silence, but something, you know? Trump almost got her and their daughter killed and Pence is all mealy-mouthed for 2,5 years?? What is wrong with him?
Alternatively she is drugged up like a sixties housewife. Both are possible.
posted by mumimor at 7:30 AM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Alternatively she is drugged up like a sixties housewife. Both are possible.
posted by mumimor at 7:30 AM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
I will be satisfied if Trump is kept out of the election. I don't care a lot of he's imprisoned-- punishment, especially long-delayed punishment-- doesn't work as deterance. This is about emotions, though. I don't know what best policy is.
I mean, if he did all these crimes, he should do the time. The problem is that if he takes the stand he can start complaining about why other people got away with it and not him, and enough people will take his point.
posted by kingdead at 7:40 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, if he did all these crimes, he should do the time. The problem is that if he takes the stand he can start complaining about why other people got away with it and not him, and enough people will take his point.
posted by kingdead at 7:40 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I very strongly do not want Trump to win again and his running at all is indicative of an obvious flaw in the way the parties are funded.
Also, yes, he's mendacious as can be and was indifferent to Pence (and others) potentially getting killed. ...there's nothing positive or new to say about him or any of the characters who aided and abetted him.
The above link to popehat is well worth a read: he's smart and aware of the ways the various parties are trying to sway the narrative. This is the real story - how is this chunk of history going to be played in the short term. I sincerely hope law gets a chance to be up-held, politics be damned.
posted by From Bklyn at 7:47 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, yes, he's mendacious as can be and was indifferent to Pence (and others) potentially getting killed. ...there's nothing positive or new to say about him or any of the characters who aided and abetted him.
The above link to popehat is well worth a read: he's smart and aware of the ways the various parties are trying to sway the narrative. This is the real story - how is this chunk of history going to be played in the short term. I sincerely hope law gets a chance to be up-held, politics be damned.
posted by From Bklyn at 7:47 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I will be satisfied if Trump is kept out of the election.
None of the current or potential indictments could force him out of the election, even if found guilty and imprisoned. You are allowed to campaign from jail.
The only way I can imagine him being "kept out" of the election is some kind of deal along the lines of the deal made with Nixon, where he quietly left the public arena in exchange for amnesty. But, the time when those deals could have been quietly made seems to be well past and it is really hard to see it happening now, particularly with the existing and potential state indictments. Maybe there is some small chance of a deal within the GOP where he throws his support behind another candidate in exchange for a promise of pardons, but that's also hard to see happening right now given the dynamics in that race, and Trump's accurate assessment that he has more leverage as a candidate.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:00 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
None of the current or potential indictments could force him out of the election, even if found guilty and imprisoned. You are allowed to campaign from jail.
The only way I can imagine him being "kept out" of the election is some kind of deal along the lines of the deal made with Nixon, where he quietly left the public arena in exchange for amnesty. But, the time when those deals could have been quietly made seems to be well past and it is really hard to see it happening now, particularly with the existing and potential state indictments. Maybe there is some small chance of a deal within the GOP where he throws his support behind another candidate in exchange for a promise of pardons, but that's also hard to see happening right now given the dynamics in that race, and Trump's accurate assessment that he has more leverage as a candidate.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:00 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
If Nixon had been properly tried and sent to prison, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Let's do it right this time. Trump should be behind bars for the rest of his life as a warning to his would-be imitators.
posted by SPrintF at 8:14 AM on August 3, 2023 [40 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 8:14 AM on August 3, 2023 [40 favorites]
The problem is that if he takes the stand
I have a hard time imagining that even Trump’s lawyers are so incompetent they’d put him on the stand to testify. He would self-incriminate in seconds, he does it all the time already—one “nice” feature of malignant narcissism is that Trump doesn’t actually lie well, he just bullshits because ultimately he must have credit for everything he gets away with. He is incapable of quietly getting away with anything.
A lot of the what-if hand-wringing about possible edge scenarios, following this indictment particularly, is surprising to me: this is a no bullshit Big Deal, and not something that bluster or obfuscation can effectively answer or make go away. This is real, actual trouble for Trump. That guarantees nothing, of course, but I do think it merits a slight pause on the worst prognostications. This is a win for peace and justice; we can appreciate that without becoming complacent or thinking that the fight is over.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:15 AM on August 3, 2023 [23 favorites]
I have a hard time imagining that even Trump’s lawyers are so incompetent they’d put him on the stand to testify. He would self-incriminate in seconds, he does it all the time already—one “nice” feature of malignant narcissism is that Trump doesn’t actually lie well, he just bullshits because ultimately he must have credit for everything he gets away with. He is incapable of quietly getting away with anything.
A lot of the what-if hand-wringing about possible edge scenarios, following this indictment particularly, is surprising to me: this is a no bullshit Big Deal, and not something that bluster or obfuscation can effectively answer or make go away. This is real, actual trouble for Trump. That guarantees nothing, of course, but I do think it merits a slight pause on the worst prognostications. This is a win for peace and justice; we can appreciate that without becoming complacent or thinking that the fight is over.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:15 AM on August 3, 2023 [23 favorites]
I have a hard time imagining that even Trump’s lawyers are so incompetent they’d put him on the stand to testify.
It wouldn't be his lawyers doing it, but TFG going on the stand against the advice of counsel because he's sure he can clear everything up.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:33 AM on August 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
It wouldn't be his lawyers doing it, but TFG going on the stand against the advice of counsel because he's sure he can clear everything up.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:33 AM on August 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
It wouldn't be his lawyers doing it, but TFG going on the stand against the advice of counsel because he's sure he can clear everything up.
That would be amazing, not enough popcorn in the world for that.
posted by LooseFilter at 9:22 AM on August 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
That would be amazing, not enough popcorn in the world for that.
posted by LooseFilter at 9:22 AM on August 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yes, pass the popcorn and unfortunately, sometimes Trump’s attempts to clear things up are seen/twisted in the press as having some actual merit as a legal defense. Who can forget “The Tape”? — the released recording of Trump bragging about his possession of a classified Iran war plan he now claims he didn’t possess at all. Trump says it’s a misunderstanding: he’s a “legitimate person,” and if he was talking about having “plans,” they were probably for golf courses. People are still actually buying this nonsense enough of the time.
Then again, E. Jean Carroll was victorious in her civil suit thanks in part to Trump’s very stupid deposition testimony: “That’s my wife, that’s Marla” upon seeing a photograph of Ms. Carroll - proving she is his “type” afterall and destroying his credibility on that issue. Point is, sometimes Trump talking too much works in his favor, sometimes not. Very hard to predict.
posted by edithkeeler at 9:30 AM on August 3, 2023
Then again, E. Jean Carroll was victorious in her civil suit thanks in part to Trump’s very stupid deposition testimony: “That’s my wife, that’s Marla” upon seeing a photograph of Ms. Carroll - proving she is his “type” afterall and destroying his credibility on that issue. Point is, sometimes Trump talking too much works in his favor, sometimes not. Very hard to predict.
posted by edithkeeler at 9:30 AM on August 3, 2023
The only way I can imagine him being "kept out" of the election is some kind of deal along the lines of the deal made with Nixon, where he quietly left the public arena in exchange for amnesty.
TFG is incapable of keeping his mouth shut even when ordered to by a judge and fined for not doing so. The deal would last as long as it took him to get infront of a microphone/keyboard.
posted by Mitheral at 9:56 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
TFG is incapable of keeping his mouth shut even when ordered to by a judge and fined for not doing so. The deal would last as long as it took him to get infront of a microphone/keyboard.
posted by Mitheral at 9:56 AM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
It wouldn't be his lawyers doing it, but TFG going on the stand against the advice of counsel because he's sure he can clear everything up.
I'd bet a buck on this happening, if only because he and the lawyers both know that they would then quit and delay the actual trial even further.
posted by Etrigan at 10:10 AM on August 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'd bet a buck on this happening, if only because he and the lawyers both know that they would then quit and delay the actual trial even further.
posted by Etrigan at 10:10 AM on August 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
A skillful prosecutor will have no difficulty in tying TFG up in knots on cross-examination because, as we all know, Trump just cannot keep his mouth shut. Let him dig his own fucking grave on the witness stand.
posted by essexjan at 10:25 AM on August 3, 2023
posted by essexjan at 10:25 AM on August 3, 2023
IIRC there's no rule saying you can't be a convicted criminal and also run for office. The Constitution just says over 35 and a "natural born citizen".
I'm fairly sure Trump could President from a prison cell if he was both elected and convicted. And there have been people actually running for President while in prison.
posted by sotonohito at 10:38 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm fairly sure Trump could President from a prison cell if he was both elected and convicted. And there have been people actually running for President while in prison.
posted by sotonohito at 10:38 AM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
the disqualification clause, maybe?
Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment was originally intended to keep former Confederate officials from gaining power in the reconstructed government following the Civil War. Known as the "disqualification clause," this section was fairly obscure until January 6, 2021, when supporters of then-President Donald Trump stormed the United States Capitol building.posted by sebastienbailard at 11:18 AM on August 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
They didn't go after Trump for four years of blatant emoluments clause violations, the chances of them using 14.3 is essentially zero.
posted by Mitheral at 11:31 AM on August 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 11:31 AM on August 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have a hard time imagining that even Trump’s lawyers are so incompetent they’d put him on the stand to testify.
Not quite the same thing here, but Trump is capable of taking the stand and pleading the fifth 15 times. He seems capable of ditching the "braggadochio" when it suits him.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:42 AM on August 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
Not quite the same thing here, but Trump is capable of taking the stand and pleading the fifth 15 times. He seems capable of ditching the "braggadochio" when it suits him.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:42 AM on August 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
They didn't go after Trump for four years of blatant emoluments clause violations, the chances of them using 14.3 is essentially zero.
Would it be possible for private citizens -- really, we only need one voter in each state -- to sue the various states to keep Trump and all other insurrectionists off the ballots on the grounds of the disqualification clause? The question can then be litigated because that clause is, even by the low standards of the Constitution, incredibly obscure.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 11:51 AM on August 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Would it be possible for private citizens -- really, we only need one voter in each state -- to sue the various states to keep Trump and all other insurrectionists off the ballots on the grounds of the disqualification clause? The question can then be litigated because that clause is, even by the low standards of the Constitution, incredibly obscure.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 11:51 AM on August 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think that the way to use 14.3 is state by state after the Republican convention
posted by mbo at 11:57 AM on August 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mbo at 11:57 AM on August 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would like to see some way of giving Pence part credit. He's not a hero, I don't know where the dividing line for hero vs. not-hero is, and I don't see anyone calling him a hero, anyway.
But sometimes, there's a man. Sometimes, there's a man, well, he's the man for his time and place.
posted by saturday_morning at 1:22 PM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
But sometimes, there's a man. Sometimes, there's a man, well, he's the man for his time and place.
posted by saturday_morning at 1:22 PM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
The American people deserve to know that President Trump and his advisers didn’t just ask me to pause — they asked me to reject votes, return votes, essentially to overturn the election,” Mr. Pence said. “And to keep faith with the oath I made to the American people and to Almighty God, I rejected that out of hand and I did my duty that day.”From Right-Hand Man to Critical Witness: Pence at Heart of Trump Prosecution
posted by y2karl at 1:34 PM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
At the meeting, Pence thoroughly cataloged Trump’s lies to him about the election result. “Defendant made knowingly false claims of election fraud, including, ‘Bottom line, won every state by 100,000s of votes,’ and ‘We won every state.’ ” These claims included stuff that Department of Justice officials had told Trump was false “as recently as the night before.”Mike Pence Is No Hero. His Actions Might Send Trump to Jail Anyway.
Then, Trump “asked the Vice President to either unilaterally reject the legitimate electors from the seven targeted states, or send the question of which slate was legitimate to the targeted states legislatures.” Pence, in response, challenged not the president but “co-conspirator 2 on whether the proposal to return the question to the states was defensible.” Co-conspirator 2 responded, “ ‘Well, nobody’s tested it before.’ The Vice President then told the Defendant, ‘Did you hear that? Even your own counsel is not saying I have that authority.’ ”
posted by y2karl at 3:20 PM on August 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Pence finally grew a spine and did the right thing, and all it took was the president of the United States of America calling for him specifically to be murdered by a mob
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:31 PM on August 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:31 PM on August 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
I've voiced my opinion on there being a static/dynamic axis as well as a left/center/right axis to modern politics.
delfin (or someone else who knows), do you know other threads where this distinction was discussed? Sounds interesting. I did a search and couldn't find it, though this might be a limitation of my search skills.
posted by kensington314 at 3:56 PM on August 3, 2023
delfin (or someone else who knows), do you know other threads where this distinction was discussed? Sounds interesting. I did a search and couldn't find it, though this might be a limitation of my search skills.
posted by kensington314 at 3:56 PM on August 3, 2023
Anecdata: saw a lot fewer, and have seen fewer "Trump said X" headlines starting with the news of his indictment earlier in the week. Would be interested if anyone else has observed it
posted by JoeXIII007 at 3:59 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by JoeXIII007 at 3:59 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Unlike other countries we can’t simply throw popular political figures in jail to keep them out of office. We’re going to have to beat Trump at the ballot box with all his shenanigans and dirty tricks.
posted by interogative mood at 4:00 PM on August 3, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 4:00 PM on August 3, 2023
The hopeful side of my brain thinks that as the Iowa and New Hampshire contests get closer Trump will collapse in the polls. I don’t think voters answering the polls are doing anything more than tribal signaling to the pollsters. As the early state contests get closer they will start to get more serious about how they will really vote. The Iowa caucuses will end with an upset and unlike previous front runners Trunp won’t be able to recover in New Hampshire or South Carolina. He’ll bet it all on comeback in Florida but it won’t be enough.
posted by interogative mood at 4:15 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 4:15 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's all just going to be spinning wheels til we get to the Georgia mugshot.
posted by Catblack at 4:23 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Catblack at 4:23 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Friends in the sticks in Michigan said their rabidly pro-Trump neighbor ditched the yard and window array last week in favor of a single pro-RFK Jr. sign.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:27 PM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:27 PM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
RFK Jr.? Oh, that's so much better...
posted by Windopaene at 4:34 PM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 4:34 PM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Neighbor remains a lemming: a couple of weeks ago, Trump praised RFK Jr. as "a very smart person." In the last few days, "RFK Jr. super PAC got $5M from megadonor who had backed Trump"; "RFK Jr. a 'useful idiot' for MAGA demagogues like Steve Bannon and Roger Stone"; & 'I'm proud that Trump likes me, I want to bring people together' -- RFK Jr. Town Hall.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:58 PM on August 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:58 PM on August 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Re: Pence, Hero of the Republic.
Remember that a lot of Republicans are lawful evil, and Trump is chaotic evil. Their objection and willingness to testify isn't because they found a streak of goodness but that they objected to the chaos.
If there was a legal way to steal the election they would've gone along.
posted by bl1nk at 5:18 PM on August 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
Remember that a lot of Republicans are lawful evil, and Trump is chaotic evil. Their objection and willingness to testify isn't because they found a streak of goodness but that they objected to the chaos.
If there was a legal way to steal the election they would've gone along.
posted by bl1nk at 5:18 PM on August 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'm not sure how much credence I give to polls anymore, but: 52% of Republicans won't vote for Trump if he goes to prison: poll, Dave Lawler, Axios
posted by kristi at 5:20 PM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by kristi at 5:20 PM on August 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
delfin (or someone else who knows), do you know other threads where this distinction was discussed? Sounds interesting. I did a search and couldn't find it, though this might be a limitation of my search skills.
I don't know that it's ever had a thread of its own, necessarily. More of a general take of mine and others on our modern age, and one that can be difficult to discuss without inadvertently relitigating a certain primary and general election, which can get you stabbed in the eye with an olive fork these days.
Suffice it to say that many on the progressive left have the same general complaint about DC that the uber-conservatives ranting about the "Uniparty" have -- that they do not feel heard or taken seriously by the mainstream leadership, that the system is broken as-is, that radical changes are desirable and necessary, and that many in their party not only oppose radical changes but will work extremely hard to prevent them.
Their ends are diametrically opposed, obviously... it's not straight-up Horseshoe Theory at work, as for one of these sides to be happy, the other must suffer mightily. Their values and desires are mutually exclusive.
But their sense of dissatisfaction with their closer companions along the political spectrum can be markedly similar.
posted by delfin at 5:28 PM on August 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't know that it's ever had a thread of its own, necessarily. More of a general take of mine and others on our modern age, and one that can be difficult to discuss without inadvertently relitigating a certain primary and general election, which can get you stabbed in the eye with an olive fork these days.
Suffice it to say that many on the progressive left have the same general complaint about DC that the uber-conservatives ranting about the "Uniparty" have -- that they do not feel heard or taken seriously by the mainstream leadership, that the system is broken as-is, that radical changes are desirable and necessary, and that many in their party not only oppose radical changes but will work extremely hard to prevent them.
Their ends are diametrically opposed, obviously... it's not straight-up Horseshoe Theory at work, as for one of these sides to be happy, the other must suffer mightily. Their values and desires are mutually exclusive.
But their sense of dissatisfaction with their closer companions along the political spectrum can be markedly similar.
posted by delfin at 5:28 PM on August 3, 2023 [7 favorites]
Whatever else, Pence is wrong about this issue dividing the country. His supreme act of cowardice in the face of a tyrant has unified Trump supporters, Trump insurrectionists, Trump rioters, and Trump opponents alike in their mutual disdain for the utter poltroon.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:19 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:19 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
kristi I'm sure that at the moment the poll was taken they meant it.
And I'm sure that when the election comes they'll vote for him anyway. Because that's exactly what they did last time.
posted by sotonohito at 6:31 PM on August 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
And I'm sure that when the election comes they'll vote for him anyway. Because that's exactly what they did last time.
posted by sotonohito at 6:31 PM on August 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
If there was a legal way to steal the election they would've gone along.
They did that back in 2000.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:10 PM on August 3, 2023 [31 favorites]
They did that back in 2000.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:10 PM on August 3, 2023 [31 favorites]
How solid are the cases against Trump?
Constitutional Scholar (pause for laughter) and five-time Master Shake Impersonation Champion Mark Levin says that Trump should pardon himself if he wins and somehow "use the Supremacy clause to pardon himself from state and local prosecutors' charges," as well as seeking an "emergency hearing before SCOTUS" to somehow arbitrarily stop all of these prosecutions of Trump for, well, um, reasons.
If you're looking for the "strict Constitutionalist" flag that used to get waved, it's in the dumpster.
posted by delfin at 8:13 PM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Constitutional Scholar (pause for laughter) and five-time Master Shake Impersonation Champion Mark Levin says that Trump should pardon himself if he wins and somehow "use the Supremacy clause to pardon himself from state and local prosecutors' charges," as well as seeking an "emergency hearing before SCOTUS" to somehow arbitrarily stop all of these prosecutions of Trump for, well, um, reasons.
If you're looking for the "strict Constitutionalist" flag that used to get waved, it's in the dumpster.
posted by delfin at 8:13 PM on August 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Trump’s day in court included another encounter with Jack Smith, but no eye contact. (nyt)
Mr. Trump glanced briefly in Mr. Smith’s direction, but he did not seem to make eye contact.
That was a strikingly different approach than he has taken outside the courtroom, where he has called Mr. Smith “deranged” and promised to fire him if he is re-elected.
Today's meditation mantra of ultimate peace and well-being: Donald Trump was arrested today. Donald Trump was arrested today. Donald Trump was arrested today. Ommm.
Disappointed Smith didn't get to mad-dog Trump. Stone-faced-killer sliding a finger across his throat, mouthing I'm coming for you motherfuckaaaah.
posted by adept256 at 8:13 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mr. Trump glanced briefly in Mr. Smith’s direction, but he did not seem to make eye contact.
That was a strikingly different approach than he has taken outside the courtroom, where he has called Mr. Smith “deranged” and promised to fire him if he is re-elected.
Today's meditation mantra of ultimate peace and well-being: Donald Trump was arrested today. Donald Trump was arrested today. Donald Trump was arrested today. Ommm.
Disappointed Smith didn't get to mad-dog Trump. Stone-faced-killer sliding a finger across his throat, mouthing I'm coming for you motherfuckaaaah.
posted by adept256 at 8:13 PM on August 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Bruce Rivers a criminal defense lawyer with a popular YouTube channel has posted his thoughts
posted by interogative mood at 12:12 AM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 12:12 AM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you're looking for the "strict Constitutionalist" flag that used to get waved, it's in the dumpster.
Nah, it's stored on the gun rack.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:44 AM on August 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Nah, it's stored on the gun rack.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:44 AM on August 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
But their sense of dissatisfaction with their closer companions along the political spectrum can be markedly similar.
Propaganda knows no party.
posted by spitbull at 6:59 AM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Propaganda knows no party.
posted by spitbull at 6:59 AM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Trump's own lawyer admits he knew he'd lost the election, ripping a hole in his defence.
posted by essexjan at 7:51 AM on August 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by essexjan at 7:51 AM on August 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
Which really isn't even a defense in the first place.
If I truly, sincerely believe that all of the money at the bank down the street is rightfully mine, even though some people have patiently told me about the concept of "accounts" and how other people have them too, and I send a hundred angry men to storm the building and crack heads together and prevent anyone else from taking any of that money until some authority agrees with me that it's all for me, "But I really believed it" isn't going to cut it.
posted by delfin at 8:21 AM on August 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
If I truly, sincerely believe that all of the money at the bank down the street is rightfully mine, even though some people have patiently told me about the concept of "accounts" and how other people have them too, and I send a hundred angry men to storm the building and crack heads together and prevent anyone else from taking any of that money until some authority agrees with me that it's all for me, "But I really believed it" isn't going to cut it.
posted by delfin at 8:21 AM on August 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
Smith points that out in the indictment - you don't magically get the right to overthrow the government because you passionately believe that the government is corrupt.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:28 AM on August 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:28 AM on August 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
I thought it was the other crime that the other Trump lawyer admitted on air.
Obviously they are bad lawyers, see way above in this thread or any other Trump threads, but apart from that, I think they are going for confusion and outrage among Trump supporters, rather than acquittal in court.
posted by mumimor at 8:36 AM on August 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Obviously they are bad lawyers, see way above in this thread or any other Trump threads, but apart from that, I think they are going for confusion and outrage among Trump supporters, rather than acquittal in court.
posted by mumimor at 8:36 AM on August 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
> bl1nk: "If there was a legal way to steal the election they would've gone along."
My opinion is that it wasn't the illegality of the various maneuvers which dissuaded more Republicans from jumping on board but rather the small likelihood of success. Recall that in order for Trump to win the electoral college, he would have needed (at least) 3 states to flip their counts (pretty much GA, AZ, and MI). He basically needed to run the board, shoot the moon, hit the trifecta, etc... So, hypothetically, any successful (legal or otherwise) attempts to flip the electoral votes in one state would be mooted if any 1 of the other 2 states failed. I feel like even an average fool should be able to see that this would have been a terrible criminal conspiracy to join up with just on that basis alone.
If, on the other hand, it was more like an Indecision 2000 kind of situation where it all boiled down to one state... I am far less confident that mere illegality would have been a barrier to their plans. After all, who cares if it's illegal if your guy's going to win? He's not gonna prosecute you for helping him win.
posted by mhum at 10:19 AM on August 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
My opinion is that it wasn't the illegality of the various maneuvers which dissuaded more Republicans from jumping on board but rather the small likelihood of success. Recall that in order for Trump to win the electoral college, he would have needed (at least) 3 states to flip their counts (pretty much GA, AZ, and MI). He basically needed to run the board, shoot the moon, hit the trifecta, etc... So, hypothetically, any successful (legal or otherwise) attempts to flip the electoral votes in one state would be mooted if any 1 of the other 2 states failed. I feel like even an average fool should be able to see that this would have been a terrible criminal conspiracy to join up with just on that basis alone.
If, on the other hand, it was more like an Indecision 2000 kind of situation where it all boiled down to one state... I am far less confident that mere illegality would have been a barrier to their plans. After all, who cares if it's illegal if your guy's going to win? He's not gonna prosecute you for helping him win.
posted by mhum at 10:19 AM on August 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
I'd suggest Taylor Swift seek the Republican nomination. It's the only way to be sure..
posted by jeffburdges at 11:08 AM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 11:08 AM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
The indictment is a solid read.
posted by mazola at 3:23 PM on August 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
"104(c). The Defendant also said that regular rules no longer applied, stating, 'And fraud breaks up everything, doesn't it? When you catch somebody in a fraud, you're allowed to go by very different rules.'"This jumped out at me. Yes the indictment didn't come as fast as I'd like and the results are still frustratingly uncertain, but that's how rule of law plays out, isn't it? The system is being tested, but it's still working and this indictment is testament to that.
posted by mazola at 3:23 PM on August 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
August 3rd: Trump was instructed by Judge Upadhyaya that it is a crime to try to influence jurors, to threaten or attempt to bribe witnesses, to retaliate against anyone for providing info, to obstruct.
Judge: “Are you prepared to comply?”
Trump: “Yes.”
August 4th: Trump posts to Truth Social, "IF YOU COME AFTER ME, I'M COMING AFTER YOU!"
Yep. Gonna be a long summer.
posted by delfin at 5:07 PM on August 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
Judge: “Are you prepared to comply?”
Trump: “Yes.”
August 4th: Trump posts to Truth Social, "IF YOU COME AFTER ME, I'M COMING AFTER YOU!"
Yep. Gonna be a long summer.
posted by delfin at 5:07 PM on August 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
August 4th: Trump posts to Truth Social, "IF YOU COME AFTER ME, I'M COMING AFTER YOU!"
Yet still the law comes, grinding slow but relentless and fine.
Suck it up, boy. There is nowhere left to hide your cruel corrupt cowardly arse.
But, please, feel free to attempt a midnight runner to your bestie's dacha. Should be entertaining.
posted by Pouteria at 5:52 PM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yet still the law comes, grinding slow but relentless and fine.
Suck it up, boy. There is nowhere left to hide your cruel corrupt cowardly arse.
But, please, feel free to attempt a midnight runner to your bestie's dacha. Should be entertaining.
posted by Pouteria at 5:52 PM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
,Taylor Swift is only 33 and can't run for president. Yet.
posted by spitbull at 5:57 PM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by spitbull at 5:57 PM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don’t think there’s an age requirement for running, is there? She’ll be 35 when the next president is sworn in.
Edit: I am wrong, do not listen to me.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 6:03 PM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Edit: I am wrong, do not listen to me.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 6:03 PM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Upon further investigation: pretty sure Taylor could still run (and win), although her lawyers might get a good workout dealing with state-level election laws during the campaign.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 6:20 PM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 6:20 PM on August 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yale history professor Timothy Snyder noted: “That Trump will be tried for his coup attempt is not a violation of his rights. It is a fulfillment of his rights. It is the grace of the American republic. In other systems, when your coup attempt fails, what follows is not a trial.” [...]
Meanwhile, this afternoon the Fulton County Sheriff’s Office announced a series of road closures beginning on August 7 in downtown Atlanta near the Superior Court of Fulton County and the Fulton County Government Center. At the end of July, the sheriff’s office put up security barricades around the courthouse. The extra security measures might indicate that Fulton County district attorney Fani Willis is about to announce the results of the grand jury’s investigation into Trump’s attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election in Georgia: "I took an oath, and…the oath requires that I follow the law,” Willis said today. “And…if someone broke the law in Fulton County, Georgia,...I have a duty to prosecute, and that's exactly what I plan to do.” -- Heather Cox Richardson, Letters from an American, Aug. 3, 2023)
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:00 PM on August 4, 2023 [22 favorites]
Meanwhile, this afternoon the Fulton County Sheriff’s Office announced a series of road closures beginning on August 7 in downtown Atlanta near the Superior Court of Fulton County and the Fulton County Government Center. At the end of July, the sheriff’s office put up security barricades around the courthouse. The extra security measures might indicate that Fulton County district attorney Fani Willis is about to announce the results of the grand jury’s investigation into Trump’s attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election in Georgia: "I took an oath, and…the oath requires that I follow the law,” Willis said today. “And…if someone broke the law in Fulton County, Georgia,...I have a duty to prosecute, and that's exactly what I plan to do.” -- Heather Cox Richardson, Letters from an American, Aug. 3, 2023)
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:00 PM on August 4, 2023 [22 favorites]
Kyle Cheney on Twitter
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:21 PM on August 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
👀 Prosecutors just proposed a protective order referencing Trump’s Truth Social post from earlier tonight, saying it clearly references other parties/participants in the caseIncludes screenshots
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:21 PM on August 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
Let me preface this by saying I had a dream that Jay Leno won the 2024 election and we were all like “Well, could have been worse…”. And sorry for the negativity that follows:
A few things:
1. I worry we’ve moved back into the 2016 bubble of “He can’t possibly win”. 100% he can, trial or not, because it’s going to come down to swing states and the GOP is going to do whatever they can to steal the votes there.
2. One perspective is that all the Jan. 6th rioting/etc was a dry run - I assure you there are folks who think they didn’t go far enough and now know where they need to push in 2024 to ensure a Drumpf win. Remember how the panic alarms were removed from congressional offices? Who went to jail for that? Remember how the GOP let rioters in? Yes, hundreds of shock troops went to jail and so did a lot of their leaders, but the rest view them as expendable and will double down next chance they get.
3. I don’t see the trials changing anyone’s opinion one way or the other. If you’re still on the fence about the GOP/Drumpf, having a nuanced constitutional debate about the 1st amendment isn’t likely to sway you.
4. The real winner in 2020 was “did not vote” - more folks stayed home than voted either for Biden or Drumpf. Democrats need to spend all their money on swing states to get folks to polls. If Biden or Harris spend one single day in Massachusetts campaigning, it’s a waste. And I hate to say “give up on the deep red states” but let’s be strategic about this moving forward.
5. When Georgia announces its charges, the GOP will use it to raise money. Drumpf already said that since indictments raise his poll numbers, he’s hoping for “just one more” - he knows it’s coming and just wants to look like he has some brilliant insights the rubes lack.
We’ve got ~18 months of increasing chaos ahead of us. We need to be 100x more energized than we were in 2020.
posted by Farce_First at 7:34 AM on August 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
A few things:
1. I worry we’ve moved back into the 2016 bubble of “He can’t possibly win”. 100% he can, trial or not, because it’s going to come down to swing states and the GOP is going to do whatever they can to steal the votes there.
2. One perspective is that all the Jan. 6th rioting/etc was a dry run - I assure you there are folks who think they didn’t go far enough and now know where they need to push in 2024 to ensure a Drumpf win. Remember how the panic alarms were removed from congressional offices? Who went to jail for that? Remember how the GOP let rioters in? Yes, hundreds of shock troops went to jail and so did a lot of their leaders, but the rest view them as expendable and will double down next chance they get.
3. I don’t see the trials changing anyone’s opinion one way or the other. If you’re still on the fence about the GOP/Drumpf, having a nuanced constitutional debate about the 1st amendment isn’t likely to sway you.
4. The real winner in 2020 was “did not vote” - more folks stayed home than voted either for Biden or Drumpf. Democrats need to spend all their money on swing states to get folks to polls. If Biden or Harris spend one single day in Massachusetts campaigning, it’s a waste. And I hate to say “give up on the deep red states” but let’s be strategic about this moving forward.
5. When Georgia announces its charges, the GOP will use it to raise money. Drumpf already said that since indictments raise his poll numbers, he’s hoping for “just one more” - he knows it’s coming and just wants to look like he has some brilliant insights the rubes lack.
We’ve got ~18 months of increasing chaos ahead of us. We need to be 100x more energized than we were in 2020.
posted by Farce_First at 7:34 AM on August 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
Jack Smith Has an Indictment. Trump Has a Massive Plan for Revenge [archive link]: For more than a year, the thrice-indicted former president and his allies have been drawing plans to undo Smith's investigations, as well as to punish everyone involved [Rolling Stone]
posted by mazola at 8:35 AM on August 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mazola at 8:35 AM on August 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
62% of the voting age participated in 2020 it was record turnout. The popular vote went overwhelmingly for Joe Biden. The electoral college system combined with gerrymandering has made it so that in deep blue and deep red states turnout is reduced. Swing states like Virginia saw higher voter turnout where >75% of the voting are population participated.
posted by interogative mood at 8:49 AM on August 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 8:49 AM on August 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
Lawfare has started a new series, called The Aftermath. The first episode is from the archives, about what happened Jan 6. I probably listened when it was first sent, but still it brought tears to my eyes today. And I'm not American.
Play to your racist uncle when you are driving him to PT and can't prevent you from playing it. It is so important that we remind ourselves of what actually happened that day, specially during election season. I don't feel the right is getting away with minimizing those events, but they are doing their very best.
posted by mumimor at 9:15 AM on August 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
Play to your racist uncle when you are driving him to PT and can't prevent you from playing it. It is so important that we remind ourselves of what actually happened that day, specially during election season. I don't feel the right is getting away with minimizing those events, but they are doing their very best.
posted by mumimor at 9:15 AM on August 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
The real winner in 2020 was “did not vote” - more folks stayed home than voted either for Biden or Drumpf.Not quite true! Of the 2020 voting eligible population (239,247,182 adult US citizens who are not disenfranchised felons), the top choices in the presidential election were:
- 81,283,501 - Biden
- 79,556,725 - did not vote
- 74,223,975 - Trump
- 4,182,981 - other candidates
posted by mbrubeck at 9:32 AM on August 5, 2023 [24 favorites]
Slightly upthread: Lawfare has started a new series, called The Aftermath
The 1st season is linked from Congress Investigates the Capitol Insurrection, which also has links to primary sources and more analysis. Lots of people contribute to Lawfare so depending on who is talking/writing and my mood 🤪 sometimes I want more outrage but I think their Insurrection coverage is the best.
The Aftermath, Season 1: Binge the Whole Thing
At the bottom of the page, Wittes promises more.
The 1st season is linked from Congress Investigates the Capitol Insurrection, which also has links to primary sources and more analysis. Lots of people contribute to Lawfare so depending on who is talking/writing and my mood 🤪 sometimes I want more outrage but I think their Insurrection coverage is the best.
The Aftermath, Season 1: Binge the Whole Thing
At the bottom of the page, Wittes promises more.
We are now beginning work on Season 2 of The Aftermath, which will cover the output of the Jan. 6 Committee, the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers trials, and many other matters that arose in the year after the committee’s stunning hearings in the summer of 2022.posted by kingless at 12:09 PM on August 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
→
Judge Chutkan denies Trump’s motion seeking more time to respond to the DoJ motion for a protective order over discovery. So he has 5 pm on Monday to respond, as before. (5:24 pm)
(source)
posted by scruss at 3:07 PM on August 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Prosecutors just proposed a protective order
Judge Chutkan denies Trump’s motion seeking more time to respond to the DoJ motion for a protective order over discovery. So he has 5 pm on Monday to respond, as before. (5:24 pm)
(source)
posted by scruss at 3:07 PM on August 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't think I understand the protective order request - it's somehow related to Trump issuing a threat to no explicit person via his Twitter knockoff, but it's intended to somehow prevent Trump from sharing certain discovery information publicly? But in any case:
posted by Flunkie at 3:28 PM on August 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
Judge Chutkan denies TrumpI hope to hear a lot more of that, regardless of whether or not I understand it.
posted by Flunkie at 3:28 PM on August 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't think I understand the protective order request - it's somehow related to Trump issuing a threat to no explicit person via his Twitter knockoff, but it's intended to somehow prevent Trump from sharing certain discovery information publicly?
The latter part was a known concern and was in the works before he spouted the threat. They just added it in as a "SEE?! THIS KIND OF SHIT!" note.
posted by Etrigan at 3:48 PM on August 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
The latter part was a known concern and was in the works before he spouted the threat. They just added it in as a "SEE?! THIS KIND OF SHIT!" note.
posted by Etrigan at 3:48 PM on August 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
That "SEE?! THIS KIND OF SHIT!" seems like the meat of my confusion. Obviously issuing vague preemptive threats of vengeance is not good, but how is it "this kind of shit", i.e. not sharing discovery info?
posted by Flunkie at 3:57 PM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Flunkie at 3:57 PM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
My understanding of the protective order is that effectively, because of the known risk of misuse by Trump of documents, including those he may receive in discovery (1) discovery materials could be heavily redacted to remove personally identifying information and (2) Trumps lawyers can only show him materials, not provide him with copies.
posted by susiswimmer at 4:06 PM on August 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by susiswimmer at 4:06 PM on August 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
That "SEE?! THIS KIND OF SHIT!" seems like the meat of my confusion. Obviously issuing vague preemptive threats of vengeance is not good, but how is it "this kind of shit", i.e. not sharing discovery info?
It's them saying "This plaintiff has a history of not following what you and I know are well-established norms of conduct, and therefore you, the judge, need to lay out this norm in black and white or else there will be consequences to national security."
posted by Etrigan at 4:11 PM on August 5, 2023 [18 favorites]
It's them saying "This plaintiff has a history of not following what you and I know are well-established norms of conduct, and therefore you, the judge, need to lay out this norm in black and white or else there will be consequences to national security."
posted by Etrigan at 4:11 PM on August 5, 2023 [18 favorites]
Isn’t Trump’s putative “massive plan for revenge!” in and of itself, yet another federal crime(s)? It’s giving Making Terroristic Threats. Again. That creepy wink, wink, nudge, nudge Mafia cosplay stuff Michael Cohen explained at length under oath.
posted by edithkeeler at 4:36 PM on August 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by edithkeeler at 4:36 PM on August 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
Man, the list of things that terrify me of late is expanding exponentially. If it's not reading about how last year we just got missed by an asteroid the size of the Empire State Building, it's people talking about Carrington Event 2023.
I can remember how frightened I felt during the Cuban Missile Crisis -- now between Putin's nuclear sabre rattling in the invasion of Ukraine and Covid 19 has brought back memories of reading Alas, Babylon and Earth Abides as a teenager. And now there is the prospect of the end of democracy in the United States. I used to be a total news junkie. Not so much anymore.
Coming next: Donald Trump encased in a giant Sandworm as God Emperor of Earth, perhaps. Boy, is my breath bated or what?
posted by y2karl at 4:59 PM on August 5, 2023
I can remember how frightened I felt during the Cuban Missile Crisis -- now between Putin's nuclear sabre rattling in the invasion of Ukraine and Covid 19 has brought back memories of reading Alas, Babylon and Earth Abides as a teenager. And now there is the prospect of the end of democracy in the United States. I used to be a total news junkie. Not so much anymore.
Coming next: Donald Trump encased in a giant Sandworm as God Emperor of Earth, perhaps. Boy, is my breath bated or what?
posted by y2karl at 4:59 PM on August 5, 2023
Hey, if telling him that he'll become God Emperor of Earth is what it takes to get him encased in a giant sandworm, I say we go for it.
posted by Flunkie at 5:44 PM on August 5, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 5:44 PM on August 5, 2023 [14 favorites]
I thought the protective order was also about avoiding having to charge him with witness tampering
I.e. Trump is building lists of people to get revenge on, witness the tweet, therefore it s reasonable to restrict information from him to avoid him threatening witnesses, like he just did
posted by eustatic at 6:42 PM on August 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I.e. Trump is building lists of people to get revenge on, witness the tweet, therefore it s reasonable to restrict information from him to avoid him threatening witnesses, like he just did
posted by eustatic at 6:42 PM on August 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm with many people here in that I don't know what to expect for the 2024 election. It's still so damn far away. Anything could happen it seems. Biden could fall down (again) during a public appearance but suffer different consequences, either perceptual or physical. I never want to think, as I did before, that TFG can't win because he's such an obvious liar, sexist, fascist, etc. I'd like to think the next election should be a greater margin of victory for Biden, but I'm not yet convinced that will be the case. We're stuck between shit and a soft place.
posted by perhapses at 6:44 PM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by perhapses at 6:44 PM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
→
One of the things that Trump's legal team is trying to do is delay everything, in the hope that these cases will fall apart or run out of time before the next election. The judge's immediate requirement for a response to the protective order is a message that that kind of shit was not going to be allowed. There's not going to be a speedy trial, but I think we'll be seeing a lot of these "get on with it!" decisions
posted by scruss at 7:02 PM on August 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
"SEE?! THIS KIND OF SHIT!"
One of the things that Trump's legal team is trying to do is delay everything, in the hope that these cases will fall apart or run out of time before the next election. The judge's immediate requirement for a response to the protective order is a message that that kind of shit was not going to be allowed. There's not going to be a speedy trial, but I think we'll be seeing a lot of these "get on with it!" decisions
posted by scruss at 7:02 PM on August 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
Trump’s lawyers also tried to stretch out the time they have to respond to the judge’s order requiring that both sides suggest a trial date and the magistrate was having none of that.
posted by interogative mood at 8:12 PM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 8:12 PM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Trump has spent too much time in the company of Vince McMahon, because he's being a wrestling heel at the moment.
Picture some sinister, sneaky heel doing something dastardly behind the ref's back. The face picks up a chair that's in the ring and is tempted to smash the hell out of the heel in retaliation. And there's the heel, daring him. Hit me. Hit me, already! C'mon, what are you, weak? Hit me!
And the face winds up but holds himself back, knowing that the ref is watching him carefully and if he breaks the rules even a little bit, he gets disqualified and the heel wins.
I mean, Trump and his minions will scream about judicial bias and illegal prosecution and unfair treatment and being railroaded and kangaroo courts and being denied the ability to bring in "the REAL evidence" until time immemorial no matter how this goes. So the judge and prosecution are both doing as much as possible by the numbers, not taking obvious bait, not lashing out, not giving them any ammunition for an even semi-plausible gripe.
All the while, thinking... is that not the most wallop-able face in the world taunting me right now?
posted by delfin at 8:40 PM on August 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
Picture some sinister, sneaky heel doing something dastardly behind the ref's back. The face picks up a chair that's in the ring and is tempted to smash the hell out of the heel in retaliation. And there's the heel, daring him. Hit me. Hit me, already! C'mon, what are you, weak? Hit me!
And the face winds up but holds himself back, knowing that the ref is watching him carefully and if he breaks the rules even a little bit, he gets disqualified and the heel wins.
I mean, Trump and his minions will scream about judicial bias and illegal prosecution and unfair treatment and being railroaded and kangaroo courts and being denied the ability to bring in "the REAL evidence" until time immemorial no matter how this goes. So the judge and prosecution are both doing as much as possible by the numbers, not taking obvious bait, not lashing out, not giving them any ammunition for an even semi-plausible gripe.
All the while, thinking... is that not the most wallop-able face in the world taunting me right now?
posted by delfin at 8:40 PM on August 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
Hey, if telling him that he'll become God Emperor of Earth is what it takes to get him encased in a giant sandworm, I say we go for it.
As long as it's a dead sandworm lying prone in a lagoon of pig manure with Mr. Trump facing downward, I have no objections.
posted by y2karl at 10:11 PM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
As long as it's a dead sandworm lying prone in a lagoon of pig manure with Mr. Trump facing downward, I have no objections.
posted by y2karl at 10:11 PM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm with many people here in that I don't know what to expect for the 2024 election. It's still so damn far away. Anything could happen it seems.
As I've said before, try to look on the bright side...Trump could be dead by then!
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:53 AM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
As I've said before, try to look on the bright side...Trump could be dead by then!
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:53 AM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Trump didn't die in that plane crash, he's just hiding from the deep state until he can come back in Glory. VOTE TRUMP!"
posted by Windopaene at 8:23 AM on August 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 8:23 AM on August 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
I see Trump more like the 40k God Emperor than the Dune one.
posted by interogative mood at 8:40 AM on August 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 8:40 AM on August 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well, his followers certainly do. There's so damn much fanart of Trump's face pasted onto pictures of the God Emperor of Mankind and they sometimes even refer to him that way on the net.
Presumably it got started by a few 40k fans then spread to the rest of the MAGA cult. There's a depressingly large subset of 40k enthusiasts who think the Fascist and theocratic aspects of the Imperium of Man are totally awesome should be emulated.
posted by sotonohito at 10:19 AM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Presumably it got started by a few 40k fans then spread to the rest of the MAGA cult. There's a depressingly large subset of 40k enthusiasts who think the Fascist and theocratic aspects of the Imperium of Man are totally awesome should be emulated.
posted by sotonohito at 10:19 AM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
They aren’t wrong. The God Emperor of Mankind in 40k came to power claiming to be making humankind great again, only to have it end with him entombed as an undead skeleton atop a throne in a grand palace/cathedral serving mostly as an over glorified lighthouse. Meanwhile his followers attempt to carry on his vision only to see increase human misery, suffering and perpetual war.
posted by interogative mood at 11:16 AM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 11:16 AM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Whether Trump is behind bars next spring or if it is not clear yet whether he will have a new forwarding address, nothin' but good times ahead.
1) Since nothing short of death will prevent him from mounting some kind of campaign... who will be his running mate?
Consider that it will have to be someone who has been and pledges that they will be 140% loyal to Trump, no matter what he does, no matter what he instructs them to do, no matter how likely it may be that acting on Trump's behalf will place them into a cell three doors down from Trump's. Trump will accept nothing less, and the base will accept nothing less. "Judas" trending every time Pence opens his mouth illustrates that nicely.
So you can't just be an _ordinary_ Trump sycophant. Like, the Trump base loathes Lindsey Graham, as Graham licks Trump's boot at every possible opportunity but he is viewed as Insufficiently Devout regardless. You have to be ready and willing and dumb/deluded enough to go full Trashcan Man and go full My Life For You, My Life For You. That brings us down to the level of, what, Peter Navarro? Paul Gosar? Mike Lindell?
2) Others will be running, of course. Trump will not dignify the debates as being on his level by participating in them, but his presence will be felt. Because question one to every candidate will be:
"If elected, will you grant Donald Trump a full pardon for all acts he has or may have committed?"
Try to wriggle out of that one without answering "on Day One."
3) Then there's the second question.
"Mark Levin, or someone of similarly dubious character, has stated that there is only one proper slate of actions for whomever wins the nomination. He has declared that they should pardon Trump on day one, instruct their Veep to resign immediately, have Congress confirm Trump as their new Veep, and then themselves resign. Do you agree with this?"
"Er um ah er"
posted by delfin at 12:30 PM on August 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
1) Since nothing short of death will prevent him from mounting some kind of campaign... who will be his running mate?
Consider that it will have to be someone who has been and pledges that they will be 140% loyal to Trump, no matter what he does, no matter what he instructs them to do, no matter how likely it may be that acting on Trump's behalf will place them into a cell three doors down from Trump's. Trump will accept nothing less, and the base will accept nothing less. "Judas" trending every time Pence opens his mouth illustrates that nicely.
So you can't just be an _ordinary_ Trump sycophant. Like, the Trump base loathes Lindsey Graham, as Graham licks Trump's boot at every possible opportunity but he is viewed as Insufficiently Devout regardless. You have to be ready and willing and dumb/deluded enough to go full Trashcan Man and go full My Life For You, My Life For You. That brings us down to the level of, what, Peter Navarro? Paul Gosar? Mike Lindell?
2) Others will be running, of course. Trump will not dignify the debates as being on his level by participating in them, but his presence will be felt. Because question one to every candidate will be:
"If elected, will you grant Donald Trump a full pardon for all acts he has or may have committed?"
Try to wriggle out of that one without answering "on Day One."
3) Then there's the second question.
"Mark Levin, or someone of similarly dubious character, has stated that there is only one proper slate of actions for whomever wins the nomination. He has declared that they should pardon Trump on day one, instruct their Veep to resign immediately, have Congress confirm Trump as their new Veep, and then themselves resign. Do you agree with this?"
"Er um ah er"
posted by delfin at 12:30 PM on August 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
Trump can run as an independent; but there is nothing legally stopping the Republican Party from nominating someone else at the convention. After the convention it is probably is too late for him to get on the ballot in most places as an independent. It is very unlikely that they would do that; but then we live in times were unlikely stuff seems to keep happening.
posted by interogative mood at 1:15 PM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 1:15 PM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
That brings us down to the level of, what, Peter Navarro? Paul Gosar? Mike Lindell?
Marjorie Taylor Greene, J.D. Vance, Boebert, all the other people whose fortunes are already tied to the MAGA vote. Though I'm not tracking which deplorables up for their own reelection, or their odds.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:34 PM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Marjorie Taylor Greene, J.D. Vance, Boebert, all the other people whose fortunes are already tied to the MAGA vote. Though I'm not tracking which deplorables up for their own reelection, or their odds.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:34 PM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
1) Since nothing short of death will prevent him from mounting some kind of campaign... who will be his running mate?
How Marjorie Taylor Greene Is Trying to Become Trump’s VP
posted by ActingTheGoat at 1:43 PM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
How Marjorie Taylor Greene Is Trying to Become Trump’s VP
posted by ActingTheGoat at 1:43 PM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Kari Lake is also a possibility, as another hyper-aggressive grifter who's singing the same "I won the election and am the rightful executive but it was stolen from me, so send me lots of money" song as Trump.
It's hard to imagine her with genuine loyalty to him, however, rather than hoping to be able to stand on his oxygen hose if he's ever hospitalized.
posted by delfin at 1:54 PM on August 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's hard to imagine her with genuine loyalty to him, however, rather than hoping to be able to stand on his oxygen hose if he's ever hospitalized.
posted by delfin at 1:54 PM on August 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
There are zillions of possibilities, and I don't think the GOP as a whole cares one whit how utterly absurd any of them may be. Even someone like Lindell seems like the cream of the crop relative to what the base would think is fantastic, e.g. some cop who got famous for shooting a ten year old black kid. But in any case, one possibility for a nominee if Trump is convicted and incarcerated is... Trump. And that's where my money would be.
posted by Flunkie at 2:03 PM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Flunkie at 2:03 PM on August 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
How Marjorie Taylor Greene Is Trying to Become Trump’s VP
the idea of her being president is terrifying
posted by pyramid termite at 2:16 PM on August 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
the idea of her being president is terrifying
posted by pyramid termite at 2:16 PM on August 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
After the convention it is probably is too late for him to get on the ballot in most places as an independent.In 47 states, sore loser laws or similar mechanisms prevent any candidate from appearing on the general election ballot after seeking and losing a party nomination during the primaries.
posted by mbrubeck at 2:28 PM on August 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Although according to Wikipedia these don’t necessarily apply to presidential candidates, so never mind.
posted by mbrubeck at 2:30 PM on August 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 2:30 PM on August 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
There are zillions of possibilities, and I don't think the GOP as a whole cares one whit how utterly absurd any of them may be.
They may care when the Trump Make America Great Party is announced sometime between now and the closing date. The Republican Party could be consigned to second-tier status.
posted by dg at 3:21 PM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
They may care when the Trump Make America Great Party is announced sometime between now and the closing date. The Republican Party could be consigned to second-tier status.
posted by dg at 3:21 PM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Would it be possible for private citizens -- really, we only need one voter in each state -- to sue the various states to keep Trump and all other insurrectionists off the ballots on the grounds of the disqualification clause? The question can then be litigated because that clause is, even by the low standards of the Constitution, incredibly obscure.
I think that the way to use 14.3 is state by state after the Republican convention
So overall, I think some use of 14.3 needs to be re-established and reach as far as it can into every GOP officeholder among others involved with Jan 6th.
That said, I think there are some obstacles to it serving as an effective deterrent to a TFG presidency or as a help to Dems winning the 2024 election.
From what I've read even assuming good faith from any judges involved it's not settled that 14.3 is applicable to the President. I would also assume a conviction would be necessary to make it stick (though I'd like to be wrong), and who knows whether that happens in time.
It also seems that if the route forward is state-by-state it is mostly likely to get the most traction in the states that TFG is already going to lose anyway, and face the most resistance from states that TFG is likely to win or even swing states with more GOP state-level power. Combine that with the fact the GOP has taken state-level power more seriously than Democrats and progressives have, and so has more control of more states.
So one possible-to-likely outcome is that there's no material difference in victory prospects... but rhetorical prospects in reaching any audience of the disenchanted / low-information / other characters with "The Deep State is Pulling out All the Stops" messaging and getting traction with it actually go up. This chance doubles if it only happens in states that are already Progressive Piñatas. One of the dumbest possible outcomes is if California kicks TFG off the ballot and almost nobody else does. I think GOP operators would probably actually help this happen if they could.
For this reason I really really hope that anybody focusing on this keeps their focus on swing states. Nevada and Georgia? By all means (and if I can help as a NV resident I will). California and Oregon -- why even bother?
I also suspect that swing-state focus cannot be replaced with any kind of federal-level effort this cycle. What's the outcome if Trump is nominated and then elected? If we make it through any challenges or self-pardon efforts or whatever and Trump *is* disqualified I'd guess the rules fall out as designating his ticket/running mate as the new President (who quite probably then pardons Trump). The GOP would *love* this. They'd get all the energy of Trump's personal and social grievance politics and few/none of the problems of having to share power with him.
posted by weston at 3:34 PM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think that the way to use 14.3 is state by state after the Republican convention
So overall, I think some use of 14.3 needs to be re-established and reach as far as it can into every GOP officeholder among others involved with Jan 6th.
That said, I think there are some obstacles to it serving as an effective deterrent to a TFG presidency or as a help to Dems winning the 2024 election.
From what I've read even assuming good faith from any judges involved it's not settled that 14.3 is applicable to the President. I would also assume a conviction would be necessary to make it stick (though I'd like to be wrong), and who knows whether that happens in time.
It also seems that if the route forward is state-by-state it is mostly likely to get the most traction in the states that TFG is already going to lose anyway, and face the most resistance from states that TFG is likely to win or even swing states with more GOP state-level power. Combine that with the fact the GOP has taken state-level power more seriously than Democrats and progressives have, and so has more control of more states.
So one possible-to-likely outcome is that there's no material difference in victory prospects... but rhetorical prospects in reaching any audience of the disenchanted / low-information / other characters with "The Deep State is Pulling out All the Stops" messaging and getting traction with it actually go up. This chance doubles if it only happens in states that are already Progressive Piñatas. One of the dumbest possible outcomes is if California kicks TFG off the ballot and almost nobody else does. I think GOP operators would probably actually help this happen if they could.
For this reason I really really hope that anybody focusing on this keeps their focus on swing states. Nevada and Georgia? By all means (and if I can help as a NV resident I will). California and Oregon -- why even bother?
I also suspect that swing-state focus cannot be replaced with any kind of federal-level effort this cycle. What's the outcome if Trump is nominated and then elected? If we make it through any challenges or self-pardon efforts or whatever and Trump *is* disqualified I'd guess the rules fall out as designating his ticket/running mate as the new President (who quite probably then pardons Trump). The GOP would *love* this. They'd get all the energy of Trump's personal and social grievance politics and few/none of the problems of having to share power with him.
posted by weston at 3:34 PM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I wasn’t thinking about sore loser laws as much as the logistics of getting on the ballot in most states and the deadlines. For example Virginia’s deadline for independent candidates is late August to be on the ballot and you need 2500 signatures from around the state. If the convention is after the deadline and Trump wants to he an independent candidate he can, but he won’t be on the ballot. He’ll have to be a write in.
posted by interogative mood at 4:28 PM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 4:28 PM on August 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
the idea of her being president is terrifying
turn the space lasers up to 11
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:59 PM on August 6, 2023
turn the space lasers up to 11
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:59 PM on August 6, 2023
We have to sift through so many crazy lies these days, just to get the basic story.
A lie is an implicit admission that the truth does not suit the speaker's purposes.
When the National Review or Fox or whoever lies in Trump's defense, it's an admission that the truth is pretty damning.
posted by Gelatin at 7:32 AM on August 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
A lie is an implicit admission that the truth does not suit the speaker's purposes.
When the National Review or Fox or whoever lies in Trump's defense, it's an admission that the truth is pretty damning.
posted by Gelatin at 7:32 AM on August 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
Are the Internet lawyers remotely correct that Trump and his lawyers statements about Pence amount to a public confession! Was admitting to telling Pence to delay certification of the election enough to demonstrate an overt act in furtherance of the crime?
posted by interogative mood at 8:14 AM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 8:14 AM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Without trying to be funny, it depends on whether a jury thinks so after all is said and argued? So, we don't know yet.
posted by delfin at 8:58 AM on August 7, 2023
posted by delfin at 8:58 AM on August 7, 2023
Apologies for being so late to answer this question, but I just stumbled into the thread.
I'm curious to hear from anyone with Trump voting or Trump leaning friends/relatives. Will anything sway them at this point? Would a conviction do it?
Between indictments--before this one but after one of the other ones, which yeah I can't believe I'm writing either--my twice-Trump-voting father announced this, unsolicited, as he put a forkful of dinner into his mouth:
"I hope they have enough on Trump to put him UNDER the jail."
Dad is the type of Republican who'll vote for almost any atrocity as long as it keeps his taxes low. But not this. He's always sheepishly laughed off the worst of Trump's behavior till now because tax cuts. Dad believes in a woman's right to choose and provides free healthcare to undocumented immigrants and unhoused people, but also is a descendant of Jeb Stuart & RE Lee and has Confederate memorabilia as family heirlooms. He would genuinely like to see Trump die in jail. And he will make sure his wife doesn't pull a lever for DJT either. In purple Virginia.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 9:51 AM on August 7, 2023 [17 favorites]
I'm curious to hear from anyone with Trump voting or Trump leaning friends/relatives. Will anything sway them at this point? Would a conviction do it?
Between indictments--before this one but after one of the other ones, which yeah I can't believe I'm writing either--my twice-Trump-voting father announced this, unsolicited, as he put a forkful of dinner into his mouth:
"I hope they have enough on Trump to put him UNDER the jail."
Dad is the type of Republican who'll vote for almost any atrocity as long as it keeps his taxes low. But not this. He's always sheepishly laughed off the worst of Trump's behavior till now because tax cuts. Dad believes in a woman's right to choose and provides free healthcare to undocumented immigrants and unhoused people, but also is a descendant of Jeb Stuart & RE Lee and has Confederate memorabilia as family heirlooms. He would genuinely like to see Trump die in jail. And he will make sure his wife doesn't pull a lever for DJT either. In purple Virginia.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 9:51 AM on August 7, 2023 [17 favorites]
we live in times were unlikely stuff seems to keep happening
I don't like living in interesting times.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:03 AM on August 7, 2023 [13 favorites]
I don't like living in interesting times.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:03 AM on August 7, 2023 [13 favorites]
"104(c). The Defendant also said that regular rules no longer applied, stating, 'And fraud breaks up everything, doesn't it? When you catch somebody in a fraud, you're allowed to go by very different rules.'"
This is Trump remembering the crime-fraud exception to attorney client privilege, which his lawyers have warned him about a thousand times.
posted by ryanrs at 10:57 AM on August 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is Trump remembering the crime-fraud exception to attorney client privilege, which his lawyers have warned him about a thousand times.
posted by ryanrs at 10:57 AM on August 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's 5pm in DC right now.
posted by rhizome at 2:04 PM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 2:04 PM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Federal government offices in the DC region closed at 330pm today because of incoming extreme weather. I assume this gives them until tomorrow since the courts followed suit.
In other news, Trump’s latest defense is that he only technically violated the constitution and broke the law.
Maybe the judge should just technically put him in jail.
posted by interogative mood at 2:27 PM on August 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
In other news, Trump’s latest defense is that he only technically violated the constitution and broke the law.
Maybe the judge should just technically put him in jail.
posted by interogative mood at 2:27 PM on August 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
In other news, Trump’s latest defense is that he only technically violated the constitution and broke the law.
I think it's that he only technically violated the Constitution which is (somehow) NOT the same as breaking the law.
Yeah I dunno either. Flood the zone with shit I guess.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:03 PM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think it's that he only technically violated the Constitution which is (somehow) NOT the same as breaking the law.
Yeah I dunno either. Flood the zone with shit I guess.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:03 PM on August 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
President Marjorie Taylor Green -- now if the sound of that won't make us think we'll miss TFG until the last ding dong of eternity, I don't know what will...
posted by y2karl at 3:47 PM on August 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 3:47 PM on August 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd really love to say that even the Republicans wouldn't elect Greene, but post-Trump I can't. There is clearly no level to which they will not stoop.
posted by sotonohito at 5:11 PM on August 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 5:11 PM on August 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
which is (somehow) NOT the same as breaking the law
What they're trying to go for is to liken Trump's coup plot to normal Presidential actions that are not crimes but end up struck down in court, like Biden's student loan forgiveness program. Those sorts of things are not crimes to attempt, but they are unconstitutional.
Of course, Trump actually did commit crimes.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:15 PM on August 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
What they're trying to go for is to liken Trump's coup plot to normal Presidential actions that are not crimes but end up struck down in court, like Biden's student loan forgiveness program. Those sorts of things are not crimes to attempt, but they are unconstitutional.
Of course, Trump actually did commit crimes.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:15 PM on August 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Well, if it's a crime to love one's country, then I am guilty. And if it's a crime to steal a trillion dollars from our government and hand it over to communist Cuba, then I'm guilty of that too. And if it's a crime to bribe a jury, then so help me, I'll soon be guilty of that!"
posted by Flunkie at 5:30 PM on August 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 5:30 PM on August 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
Maddow on MSNBC is reporting the Trump team filed their response to the Protective Order request (which was basically, let us disseminate everything) and within hours Smith's team filed a response to *that* (basically, he wants to try this in the media) and the Judge ordered both sides to set up a date for a hearing by the 11th.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:42 PM on August 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:42 PM on August 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
I wonder if the lawyer even imagines they have a chance in court? I heard an interview with Ty Cobb where he seemed truly baffled by what Lauro is doing, and that he seemed not to have read the indictment properly, though he added something like working for Trump is hard. This is entirely me paraphrasing, I heard it several hours ago and can't find it again.
I also wonder what would happen if Trump was sent to jail for breaking his bond (or more likely, put under house arrest with no screentime). I mean, I know Fox News and the Republicans would run amok with lies and crazy stuff, but would there be violence? Or even peaceful demonstrations? Trump hasn't seemed to be able to summon the mob again after Jan 6.
Trumps power is in his personal presence. If he wasn't there for a couple of weeks, what could happen? Not an invitation to speculation, just a thought because people keep on saying the judge is no nonsense, so perhaps the type of judge who might actually sanction Trump.
Meanwhile, in Florida, judge Cannon is working on the delay with unusual questions.
posted by mumimor at 2:52 AM on August 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I also wonder what would happen if Trump was sent to jail for breaking his bond (or more likely, put under house arrest with no screentime). I mean, I know Fox News and the Republicans would run amok with lies and crazy stuff, but would there be violence? Or even peaceful demonstrations? Trump hasn't seemed to be able to summon the mob again after Jan 6.
Trumps power is in his personal presence. If he wasn't there for a couple of weeks, what could happen? Not an invitation to speculation, just a thought because people keep on saying the judge is no nonsense, so perhaps the type of judge who might actually sanction Trump.
Meanwhile, in Florida, judge Cannon is working on the delay with unusual questions.
posted by mumimor at 2:52 AM on August 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't think any of these arguments are going to be used in court. They're TV arguments. They're not for the judge or the jury. I'm kind of surprised that people are treating them like this is actual intended defense.
posted by kyrademon at 4:07 AM on August 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 4:07 AM on August 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
They didn't go after Trump for four years of blatant emoluments clause violations, the chances of them using 14.3 is essentially zero.
If memory serves me correctly, some people tried, but the Republicans on the Supreme Court said that essentially no one has standing to bring an emoluments clause complaint, thus protecting Trump on that flank.
posted by Gelatin at 4:12 AM on August 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
If memory serves me correctly, some people tried, but the Republicans on the Supreme Court said that essentially no one has standing to bring an emoluments clause complaint, thus protecting Trump on that flank.
posted by Gelatin at 4:12 AM on August 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't think any of these arguments are going to be used in court.
They are using the free-speech/1st amendment argument right now in response to the government's request for a protective order, where it is not in any way relevant.
posted by mumimor at 6:40 AM on August 8, 2023
They are using the free-speech/1st amendment argument right now in response to the government's request for a protective order, where it is not in any way relevant.
posted by mumimor at 6:40 AM on August 8, 2023
Which suggests they don't have any good grounds for opposing it.
posted by Gelatin at 8:00 AM on August 8, 2023
posted by Gelatin at 8:00 AM on August 8, 2023
I think the goal is to pollute any pool of potential jurors.
posted by SPrintF at 8:07 AM on August 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 8:07 AM on August 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't think any of these arguments are going to be used in court. They're TV arguments. They're not for the judge or the jury. I'm kind of surprised that people are treating them like this is actual intended defense.
A secondary reminder to all about how Team Trump was and is VERY vocal about how the 2020 election was rampant with voter fraud, dead voters, corrupted voting machines, sinister Deep State conspiracies and whatnot... on Fox, and on Newsmax, and on OANN, and on Facebook, and on Twitter, and on the radio, and so forth.
But not in any of the 60+ courtrooms that heard cases.
posted by delfin at 8:30 AM on August 8, 2023 [20 favorites]
A secondary reminder to all about how Team Trump was and is VERY vocal about how the 2020 election was rampant with voter fraud, dead voters, corrupted voting machines, sinister Deep State conspiracies and whatnot... on Fox, and on Newsmax, and on OANN, and on Facebook, and on Twitter, and on the radio, and so forth.
But not in any of the 60+ courtrooms that heard cases.
posted by delfin at 8:30 AM on August 8, 2023 [20 favorites]
I think the goal is to pollute any pool of potential jurors
And to scare away witnesses. If Trump's team wins this argument about the protective order, Trump himself will share information in public about specific witnesses, witness statements, and evidence to be shared at trial, and as a result those witnesses will be hounded into hiding, subjected to death threats, and possibly actually harmed physically. Some may refuse to testify and/or even lie on the stand.
posted by suelac at 8:42 AM on August 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
And to scare away witnesses. If Trump's team wins this argument about the protective order, Trump himself will share information in public about specific witnesses, witness statements, and evidence to be shared at trial, and as a result those witnesses will be hounded into hiding, subjected to death threats, and possibly actually harmed physically. Some may refuse to testify and/or even lie on the stand.
posted by suelac at 8:42 AM on August 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
I think the goal is to pollute any pool of potential jurors.
The goal is to provoke a judicial reaction and thereby both rile up the base and prepare them for the message that the Judge is prejudiced against Trump when it all goes against him.
I agree that the worst sanction he's likely to receive is a more explicit gag order, and house arrest. To avoid fanning those flames. And the Judge may not want to go that far, yet, as once that's done there's not much left in reserve.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:53 AM on August 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
The goal is to provoke a judicial reaction and thereby both rile up the base and prepare them for the message that the Judge is prejudiced against Trump when it all goes against him.
I agree that the worst sanction he's likely to receive is a more explicit gag order, and house arrest. To avoid fanning those flames. And the Judge may not want to go that far, yet, as once that's done there's not much left in reserve.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:53 AM on August 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
The goal is to provoke a judicial reaction and thereby both rile up the base and prepare them for the message that the Judge is prejudiced against Trump when it all goes against him.
Trump and team correctly understand that in addition to the judicial process, there is a parallel political process that, used effectively, can constrain the judicial process. And, they are iterating in real time, trying out any old argument or attack and seeing what gets some public traction.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:51 AM on August 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
Trump and team correctly understand that in addition to the judicial process, there is a parallel political process that, used effectively, can constrain the judicial process. And, they are iterating in real time, trying out any old argument or attack and seeing what gets some public traction.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:51 AM on August 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
Yes. Ultimately he will retreat to complaining about the UNFAIR GAG ORDER, which will actually excuse him from having to discuss the substance of the prosecution, or why his defense isn't everything he promised etc.
I'D LOVE TO TELL YOU FOLKS, BECAUSE IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE BEST DEFENSE, BUT THEY WON'T LET US DO IT, AND THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW WHY....
Just have to roll right over it, like the noise it is.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:12 PM on August 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'D LOVE TO TELL YOU FOLKS, BECAUSE IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE BEST DEFENSE, BUT THEY WON'T LET US DO IT, AND THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW WHY....
Just have to roll right over it, like the noise it is.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:12 PM on August 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
A secondary reminder to all about how Team Trump was and is VERY vocal about how the 2020 election was rampant with voter fraud, dead voters, corrupted voting machines, sinister Deep State conspiracies and whatnot... on Fox, and on Newsmax, and on OANN, and on Facebook, and on Twitter, and on the radio, and so forth.
But not in any of the 60+ courtrooms that heard cases.
Actually they did raise this stuff in several court rooms. Which is why Lin Wood and John Eastman can no longer practice law. (Yet, after looking it up, somehow Sidney Powell still has her license. Because Texas.)
posted by Room 101 at 12:46 PM on August 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
But not in any of the 60+ courtrooms that heard cases.
Actually they did raise this stuff in several court rooms. Which is why Lin Wood and John Eastman can no longer practice law. (Yet, after looking it up, somehow Sidney Powell still has her license. Because Texas.)
posted by Room 101 at 12:46 PM on August 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
I will quibble with that a bit.
There are the lawsuits that were brought by Trump's official legal team -- mostly Rudy/Jenna -- that were very careful about what they specifically alleged under oath. None of them ever rattled the courtroom floorboards with formal allegations of vast winner-changing electoral fraud and conspiracy to commit same; they were nitpicking around the edges, making smaller claims, looking for technicalities and failing to make any mark in doing so. Even the lawsuit that led to a disciplinary panel recommending Rudy's disbarment did not actually contain fraud allegations; it claimed that some voters having opportunities to cure bad ballots and others not having that opportunity, as an example, meant that the entire election in PA should be thrown out and rerun.
There are the lawsuits that were brought by people who were never (Wood) or no longer (Powell) on Trump's official legal team, but filed regardless in attempts to Restore Democracy, Thwart Communism's Claws and Restore God to his Presidential Throne. Sidney's fabled Krakens and Lin's crusade to Stop the Steal made Orly Taitz seem like a respectable attorney by comparison, and they were not at all careful about their allegations. This is why Trump's team kicked Powell to the curb before the Krakens were filed, and why suits and sanctions went flying in their direction.
Eastman... is kind of a special case. AFAIK, he was not personally filing lawsuits, but he was the mastermind and driving force behind the whole shebang, including both the Rudy/Jenna frivolous lawsuits and the let's-have-Pence-steal-it plan.
posted by delfin at 3:04 PM on August 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
There are the lawsuits that were brought by Trump's official legal team -- mostly Rudy/Jenna -- that were very careful about what they specifically alleged under oath. None of them ever rattled the courtroom floorboards with formal allegations of vast winner-changing electoral fraud and conspiracy to commit same; they were nitpicking around the edges, making smaller claims, looking for technicalities and failing to make any mark in doing so. Even the lawsuit that led to a disciplinary panel recommending Rudy's disbarment did not actually contain fraud allegations; it claimed that some voters having opportunities to cure bad ballots and others not having that opportunity, as an example, meant that the entire election in PA should be thrown out and rerun.
There are the lawsuits that were brought by people who were never (Wood) or no longer (Powell) on Trump's official legal team, but filed regardless in attempts to Restore Democracy, Thwart Communism's Claws and Restore God to his Presidential Throne. Sidney's fabled Krakens and Lin's crusade to Stop the Steal made Orly Taitz seem like a respectable attorney by comparison, and they were not at all careful about their allegations. This is why Trump's team kicked Powell to the curb before the Krakens were filed, and why suits and sanctions went flying in their direction.
Eastman... is kind of a special case. AFAIK, he was not personally filing lawsuits, but he was the mastermind and driving force behind the whole shebang, including both the Rudy/Jenna frivolous lawsuits and the let's-have-Pence-steal-it plan.
posted by delfin at 3:04 PM on August 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Fulton county prosecutors to seek new 2020 election charges next week (The Guardian)
Willis originally suggested charging decisions were “imminent” in January, but the timetable has been repeatedly delayed after a number of Republicans who sought to help Trump stay in power as so-called fake electors accepted immunity deals as the investigation neared its end.posted by mumimor at 12:10 AM on August 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
Co-conspirator and general menace to democracy John Eastman, ladies and gents: (Right Wing Watch)
John Eastman says that he was morally obligated to help Trump try to steal the 2020 election because Democrats represent "an existential threat" to the nation and the world: "What are you supposed to do? Just sit around and twiddle your thumbs?"
...(Eastman) says that if Trump's effort to overturn the 2020 election had been successful, "one hopes that our military" would have understood its obligation to quell any riots because failure to do so would mean "subjecting yourself to mob rule."
He and Clark need to be somewhere. Walking around freely is not that somewhere.
posted by delfin at 6:32 PM on August 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
John Eastman says that he was morally obligated to help Trump try to steal the 2020 election because Democrats represent "an existential threat" to the nation and the world: "What are you supposed to do? Just sit around and twiddle your thumbs?"
...(Eastman) says that if Trump's effort to overturn the 2020 election had been successful, "one hopes that our military" would have understood its obligation to quell any riots because failure to do so would mean "subjecting yourself to mob rule."
He and Clark need to be somewhere. Walking around freely is not that somewhere.
posted by delfin at 6:32 PM on August 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
John Eastman, author of the 2020 Newsweek op-ed that "just asked a few questions" regarding Kamala Harris's eligibility to serve as vice president.
Newsweek retracted it per Editor's note, 8/14: This op-ed is being used by some as a tool to perpetuate racism and xenophobia. We apologize. The essay, by John Eastman, was intended to explore a minority legal argument about the definition of who is a "natural-born citizen" in the United States. But to many readers, the essay inevitably conveyed the ugly message that Senator Kamala Harris, a woman of color and the child of immigrants, was somehow not truly American.
The op-ed was never intended to spark or to take part in the racist lie of Birtherism, the conspiracy theory aimed at delegitimizing Barack Obama, but we should have recognized the potential, even probability, that that could happen.
Uh-huh. More on "The White Supremacist “Scholars” Pushing the Kamala Harris Birther Lie" at Slate, Aug. 2020.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:51 PM on August 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Newsweek retracted it per Editor's note, 8/14: This op-ed is being used by some as a tool to perpetuate racism and xenophobia. We apologize. The essay, by John Eastman, was intended to explore a minority legal argument about the definition of who is a "natural-born citizen" in the United States. But to many readers, the essay inevitably conveyed the ugly message that Senator Kamala Harris, a woman of color and the child of immigrants, was somehow not truly American.
The op-ed was never intended to spark or to take part in the racist lie of Birtherism, the conspiracy theory aimed at delegitimizing Barack Obama, but we should have recognized the potential, even probability, that that could happen.
Uh-huh. More on "The White Supremacist “Scholars” Pushing the Kamala Harris Birther Lie" at Slate, Aug. 2020.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:51 PM on August 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Well, the whole point of MAGA is Make America Like It Was Before Civil Rights. But MALIWBCR looks weird on a baseball cap, and the more colloquial version would scare off the church ladies who pretend to not be racist.
posted by mumimor at 10:40 PM on August 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 10:40 PM on August 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
We are all living in a zombie movie.
Specifically the part of those movies at the start where the newscaster calmly explains that five apocalypse are upon us simultaneously, to fill in the narrative gap between reality and the crumbling society the film wishes to portray. Pandemic, world war, famine, climate change. Let's try not to add fascism to the list.
posted by pwnguin at 9:11 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Specifically the part of those movies at the start where the newscaster calmly explains that five apocalypse are upon us simultaneously, to fill in the narrative gap between reality and the crumbling society the film wishes to portray. Pandemic, world war, famine, climate change. Let's try not to add fascism to the list.
posted by pwnguin at 9:11 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Walking around freely is not that somewhere.
I'll settle for walking around freely in the yard of a federal penitentiary.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:13 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'll settle for walking around freely in the yard of a federal penitentiary.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:13 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think it's They Live, pretty much straight up.
posted by spitbull at 1:34 PM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by spitbull at 1:34 PM on August 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Looks like Judge Chutkan has an idea that could actually make TFG STFU*:
posted by Flunkie at 2:55 PM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
"Even arguably ambiguous statements from parties or their counsel, if they can be reasonably interpreted to intimidate witnesses or to prejudice potential jurors, can threaten the process," Chutkan added later. "The more a party makes inflammatory statements about this case which could taint the jury pool … the greater the urgency will be that we proceed to trial quickly."*: Well, I mean, no, probably not. But it's the best idea for trying to make TFG STFU that I can remember ever having heard.
posted by Flunkie at 2:55 PM on August 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think it's They Live, pretty much straight up.
From your lips to God's ears -- the same thought came to my mind, believe me. It's the anti-woke mind virus infected zombies. As an interviewee on NPR said today, all but a handful of the present Republican candidates for President are paralyzed from calling out Trump, for fear of offending his fat chunk of the base. DeSantis tried to play it both ways until he got trapped into admitting Biden won and he still tried to weasel word his way out to the end. It was like watching someone intentionally get their wisdom teeth pulled without novocaine.
And like any of them have a chance in Hell getting past the primaries. Meanwhile Republican controlled legislatures are trying suppress the vote by any means necessary. Which is not flying with the independents at all. I pray for a blue tsunami because otherwise we are so fucked forever.
posted by y2karl at 3:08 PM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
From your lips to God's ears -- the same thought came to my mind, believe me. It's the anti-woke mind virus infected zombies. As an interviewee on NPR said today, all but a handful of the present Republican candidates for President are paralyzed from calling out Trump, for fear of offending his fat chunk of the base. DeSantis tried to play it both ways until he got trapped into admitting Biden won and he still tried to weasel word his way out to the end. It was like watching someone intentionally get their wisdom teeth pulled without novocaine.
And like any of them have a chance in Hell getting past the primaries. Meanwhile Republican controlled legislatures are trying suppress the vote by any means necessary. Which is not flying with the independents at all. I pray for a blue tsunami because otherwise we are so fucked forever.
posted by y2karl at 3:08 PM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
This seems a bit relevant: Sam Bankman-Fried (founder of the collapsed crypto exchange FTX) just had his bail revoked by a federal judge and will be heading straight to jail, because he was using the media for witness intimidation.
posted by mbrubeck at 4:24 PM on August 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 4:24 PM on August 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
Conservative law professors from the Federalist Society say there's a solid constitutional case to forbid Trump from running for President.
"“Donald Trump cannot be president — cannot run for president, cannot become president, cannot hold office — unless two-thirds of Congress decides to grant him amnesty for his conduct on Jan. 6.”"
"“The question of should Donald Trump go to jail is entrusted to the criminal process,” he said. “The question of should he be allowed to take the constitutional oath again and be given constitutional power again is not a question given to any jury.”"
free link
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:38 PM on August 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
"“Donald Trump cannot be president — cannot run for president, cannot become president, cannot hold office — unless two-thirds of Congress decides to grant him amnesty for his conduct on Jan. 6.”"
"“The question of should Donald Trump go to jail is entrusted to the criminal process,” he said. “The question of should he be allowed to take the constitutional oath again and be given constitutional power again is not a question given to any jury.”"
free link
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:38 PM on August 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
It was like watching someone intentionally get their wisdom teeth pulled without novocaine.
That's just what DeSantis looks like.
posted by wierdo at 7:09 PM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's just what DeSantis looks like.
posted by wierdo at 7:09 PM on August 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
From the article about the Fed' Society's circle-jerk article:
But James Bopp Jr., who has represented House members whose candidacies were challenged under the provision, said the authors “have adopted a ridiculously broad view” of it, adding that the article’s analysis “is completely anti-historical.”
Fed So gonna do what Fed So gonna do. Also, those guys are dicks. I mean, look at how they fucked the Supreme Court. I do not want them to be the downfall of Trump, they have enough power as is. (Also its cute how they are putting this article out now, as he's looking weak... opportunistic jerks.)
posted by From Bklyn at 12:08 AM on August 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
But James Bopp Jr., who has represented House members whose candidacies were challenged under the provision, said the authors “have adopted a ridiculously broad view” of it, adding that the article’s analysis “is completely anti-historical.”
Fed So gonna do what Fed So gonna do. Also, those guys are dicks. I mean, look at how they fucked the Supreme Court. I do not want them to be the downfall of Trump, they have enough power as is. (Also its cute how they are putting this article out now, as he's looking weak... opportunistic jerks.)
posted by From Bklyn at 12:08 AM on August 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do not want them to be the downfall of Trump, they have enough power as is.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend? The Federalist Society sucks, unequivocally, but if even they are fed up with TFG then it's worth letting them using their immense power to stop 2024 TFG from happening.
That said, I don't know why they want to stop that from happening, given that he's so stupid and hands-off that he'd gladly let them (or anyone else) rule the entire world as long as he got credit for it, and they would LOVE a "fall guy" for such things.
Frankly, this might be the only thing from now until the end of time in which they're actually making a decision with some hint of morality.
I just wonder who cares and/or would listen.
posted by revmitcz at 2:38 AM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
The enemy of my enemy is my friend? The Federalist Society sucks, unequivocally, but if even they are fed up with TFG then it's worth letting them using their immense power to stop 2024 TFG from happening.
That said, I don't know why they want to stop that from happening, given that he's so stupid and hands-off that he'd gladly let them (or anyone else) rule the entire world as long as he got credit for it, and they would LOVE a "fall guy" for such things.
Frankly, this might be the only thing from now until the end of time in which they're actually making a decision with some hint of morality.
I just wonder who cares and/or would listen.
posted by revmitcz at 2:38 AM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Newsweek retracted it per Editor's note
Reminder that the opinion editors at Newsweek are bigoted trash, of which white supremacy is only one facet of how awful they are. SPLC wrote two articles on lead editor Josh Hammer, the first detailing the awful extent of his tenure, followed up by an expose of his attendance at a far-right gala where he expressed excitement at networking with open white supremacists, transphobes, and other genocidal maniacs. His deputy, Batya Ungar-Sargon, is also infamous, especially among the Jewish left, not the least for a racist episode that she lied about in the pages of another magazine (the Forward, which she was opinion editor of at the time), and she's about 100 times worse than that now.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:41 AM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Reminder that the opinion editors at Newsweek are bigoted trash, of which white supremacy is only one facet of how awful they are. SPLC wrote two articles on lead editor Josh Hammer, the first detailing the awful extent of his tenure, followed up by an expose of his attendance at a far-right gala where he expressed excitement at networking with open white supremacists, transphobes, and other genocidal maniacs. His deputy, Batya Ungar-Sargon, is also infamous, especially among the Jewish left, not the least for a racist episode that she lied about in the pages of another magazine (the Forward, which she was opinion editor of at the time), and she's about 100 times worse than that now.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:41 AM on August 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
because [SBF] was using the media for witness intimidation.
Eh, it's more like the prosecutor persuaded Judge Kaplan (he of the Ecuador/Chevron/Donziger affair among other cases) that SBF is a habitual line-stepper who needed to be put in his place.
Reuters on Lawrence Tribe's unsuccessful involvement in trying to keep SBF out of jail.
Vanity Fair article.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:42 AM on August 12, 2023
Eh, it's more like the prosecutor persuaded Judge Kaplan (he of the Ecuador/Chevron/Donziger affair among other cases) that SBF is a habitual line-stepper who needed to be put in his place.
Prosecutors first made their request to jail the former billionaire in a July 26 hearing, saying he “crossed a line” by sharing former romantic partner Caroline Ellison’s personal writings with a New York Times reporter. Ellison was chief executive of Alameda Research.It is of note that the NYT had officially protested the gag order in a letter to Judge Kaplan (on the docket), and further asserted that the reporting was not intended to influence the case, and was of legitimate public interest.
As part of Bankman-Fried’s bail conditions, prosecutors had been able to monitor his telephone and internet activity. Kaplan said he was concerned that Bankman-Fried showed the writings to the reporter during an in-person meeting at his parents’ home.
“It was a way, in his view, of doing this in a manner in which he was least likely to be caught,” Kaplan said. “He was covering his tracks.”
His lawyers said prosecutors mischaracterized his intentions in sharing Ellison’s writings, arguing he wanted to defend his reputation and has a right to speak to the press.
Reuters on Lawrence Tribe's unsuccessful involvement in trying to keep SBF out of jail.
Vanity Fair article.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:42 AM on August 12, 2023
Leaking someone's diary seems underhanded, makes total sense that a judge would see it as nefarious. If he'd just badmouthed her to a reporter it sounds like he'd probably still be on bail.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:41 AM on August 12, 2023
posted by BungaDunga at 8:41 AM on August 12, 2023
For myself, I'm not sure what to make of the SBF situation. I'm no expert on what's normal in criminal gag orders (vis a vis the discussion in the NYT's letter). Kaplan's history is notable, imo. It's hard to feel very sorry for SBF in any event.
Whatever SBF was up to falls short of the direct, open threats Trump has already made to anyone who crosses him via the media. And, though Kaplan may be something of an outlier in his disposition towards these kinds of things, it shows that just being half-clever in trying to get around the order and cover it up can be enough. And who does that sound like?
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:30 AM on August 12, 2023
Whatever SBF was up to falls short of the direct, open threats Trump has already made to anyone who crosses him via the media. And, though Kaplan may be something of an outlier in his disposition towards these kinds of things, it shows that just being half-clever in trying to get around the order and cover it up can be enough. And who does that sound like?
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:30 AM on August 12, 2023
Leaking someone's diary seems underhanded, makes total sense that a judge would see it as nefarious. If he'd just badmouthed her to a reporter it sounds like he'd probably still be on bail.
Beyond that, it's clear that SBF was skirting the rules of his release agreement. The folks at LGM pointed out an interesting point in the judge's ruling:
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:51 AM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Beyond that, it's clear that SBF was skirting the rules of his release agreement. The folks at LGM pointed out an interesting point in the judge's ruling:
This defendant tries to go right up to the line – his use of the VPN to watch a football game over an account he wasn’t authorized, there it is… [h]e subscribed from the Bahamas and used a VPN as if he were in the Bahamas when he was in Palo Alto and could have watched it on public TV. It shows the mindset. All things considered I am going to revoke bail.Remember, Bankman-Fried has restrictions on his internet usage for unsurprising reasons - and with Alameda wallets involved in a recent rugpull, there's questions about how much he's dodging. Also, his lawyer using the Sideshow Bob" attempted chemistry" defense for turning over the diary is just... it has that "pounding the table" energy.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:51 AM on August 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh.
Exclusive: Georgia prosecutors have messages showing Trump’s team is behind voting system breach (CNN)
“Atlanta-area prosecutors investigating efforts to overturn the 2020 election results in Georgia are in possession of text messages and emails directly connecting members of Donald Trump’s legal team to the early January 2021 voting system breach in Coffee County, sources tell CNN.”
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:21 AM on August 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
Exclusive: Georgia prosecutors have messages showing Trump’s team is behind voting system breach (CNN)
“Atlanta-area prosecutors investigating efforts to overturn the 2020 election results in Georgia are in possession of text messages and emails directly connecting members of Donald Trump’s legal team to the early January 2021 voting system breach in Coffee County, sources tell CNN.”
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:21 AM on August 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
That would seem awkward to try to explain away.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:42 AM on August 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 6:42 AM on August 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
They won't need to explain it away.
I strongly recommend everyone spend a few seconds every day looking at the frontpage of foxnews.com. Because you need to know what's going on in the alternate reality the right wingers want to pretend they believe in.
You know what's on the frontpage right now? Hunter Biden as an evil criminal mastermind, Anthony Faucci as an evil liar who will soon be facing perjury charges, and an ice cream recall.
Trump's legal woes aren't mentioned. And they haven't been for weeks. All that stuff you know about what's happening in the trials? Yeah, FOX viewers don't know that. They never will.
Likewise the war in Ukraine is not happening in FOX land. Neither is global warming. Neither are the book bans. Or the library closings.
All the stuff you know about and wonder how the right will explain away? They aren't going to explain it away, they're going to ignore it completely.
posted by sotonohito at 8:53 AM on August 13, 2023 [24 favorites]
I strongly recommend everyone spend a few seconds every day looking at the frontpage of foxnews.com. Because you need to know what's going on in the alternate reality the right wingers want to pretend they believe in.
You know what's on the frontpage right now? Hunter Biden as an evil criminal mastermind, Anthony Faucci as an evil liar who will soon be facing perjury charges, and an ice cream recall.
Trump's legal woes aren't mentioned. And they haven't been for weeks. All that stuff you know about what's happening in the trials? Yeah, FOX viewers don't know that. They never will.
Likewise the war in Ukraine is not happening in FOX land. Neither is global warming. Neither are the book bans. Or the library closings.
All the stuff you know about and wonder how the right will explain away? They aren't going to explain it away, they're going to ignore it completely.
posted by sotonohito at 8:53 AM on August 13, 2023 [24 favorites]
All the stuff you know about and wonder how the right will explain away? They aren't going to explain it away, they're going to ignore it completely.
I meant, awkward to explain in court. Assuming the reporting is correct, and assuming that it ends up being charged in state court, the people involved won't have the option to ignore it even if everyone else does. (Neither of those assumptions seems like a slam dunk, unfortunately.)
posted by Dip Flash at 11:59 AM on August 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
I meant, awkward to explain in court. Assuming the reporting is correct, and assuming that it ends up being charged in state court, the people involved won't have the option to ignore it even if everyone else does. (Neither of those assumptions seems like a slam dunk, unfortunately.)
posted by Dip Flash at 11:59 AM on August 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
ice cream recallNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
posted by Flunkie at 12:21 PM on August 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
You know what's on the frontpage right now? Hunter Biden as an evil criminal mastermind, Anthony Faucci as an evil liar who will soon be facing perjury charges, and an ice cream recall.
Did woke soy boy millennials kill ice cream or is ice cream a Marxist conspiracy? Are they for or against it?
posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:58 PM on August 13, 2023
Did woke soy boy millennials kill ice cream or is ice cream a Marxist conspiracy? Are they for or against it?
posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:58 PM on August 13, 2023
The voluntary ice cream recall, involving 19 states and Washington, DC, is due to two listeria cases (NY & PA) which led to hospitalization -- one of which was directly linked to the small company's frozen soft-serve-style cup. That company? [Drumroll]
Real Kosher Ice Cream of Brooklyn, NY
Nothing Fox News does is accidental.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:00 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Real Kosher Ice Cream of Brooklyn, NY
Nothing Fox News does is accidental.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:00 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I strongly recommend everyone spend a few seconds every day looking at the frontpage of foxnews.com. Because you need to know what's going on in the alternate reality the right wingers want to pretend they believe in.
It's not just the front page - you can't find any Trump trial news at all in the US section. You have to scroll down about a dozen articles deep in the Politics section (all anti-Biden, anti Hunter, and some Trump vs DeSantis stuff). It's like it's not happening at all.
posted by Mchelly at 12:55 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's not just the front page - you can't find any Trump trial news at all in the US section. You have to scroll down about a dozen articles deep in the Politics section (all anti-Biden, anti Hunter, and some Trump vs DeSantis stuff). It's like it's not happening at all.
posted by Mchelly at 12:55 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I feel really dirty now for looking, but I wanted to see how far deep it went. Even going in knowing how bad it was likely going to be, I'm still pretty shocked.
posted by Mchelly at 12:56 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 12:56 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
You have to avoid facts as hard as you can when the facts you have are about Donald Trump.
posted by mikelieman at 1:56 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 1:56 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Today in Indictment Watch: A charging document was reportedly posted briefly on the Fulton County DA’s website this afternoon, showing that Trump could be charged with racketeering and 12 other felonies.
It was quickly deleted, as the grand jury is still seated and deliberating. However, a hornet's nest erupted with the usual suspects screaming about prosecutorial misconduct, grounds for a mistrial (never mind that we are nowhere near a trial to be mis-ed yet), double jeopardy (which is even more obviously not applicable as no trial has begun and no trial jury has been selected, much less seated) and TREASON.
As with most breaking news about disasters, take all reports with something of a grain of salt in the short term.
posted by delfin at 3:42 PM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
It was quickly deleted, as the grand jury is still seated and deliberating. However, a hornet's nest erupted with the usual suspects screaming about prosecutorial misconduct, grounds for a mistrial (never mind that we are nowhere near a trial to be mis-ed yet), double jeopardy (which is even more obviously not applicable as no trial has begun and no trial jury has been selected, much less seated) and TREASON.
As with most breaking news about disasters, take all reports with something of a grain of salt in the short term.
posted by delfin at 3:42 PM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best comment about an image of the document which goes up to 39 counts:
"I may need to see a physician in four hours."
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:47 PM on August 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
"I may need to see a physician in four hours."
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:47 PM on August 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm seeing reports of 10 indictments in the Georgia case, haven't seen a link to a pdf yet. I suppose we'll have a new thread for TFG's 4th real soon.
posted by Catblack at 7:18 PM on August 14, 2023
posted by Catblack at 7:18 PM on August 14, 2023
This is a treasure trove of indictments. Trump, Giuliani, Eastman, many others. 41 federal crimes. RICO act.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:01 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:01 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
19 total indicted.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:02 PM on August 14, 2023
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:02 PM on August 14, 2023
I wondered about that. Will we have a thread for the announcement each batch of indictments? Each court case, as they actually get to court, that makes sense. But announcements of each separate case might be egregious.
posted by revmitcz at 8:04 PM on August 14, 2023
posted by revmitcz at 8:04 PM on August 14, 2023
> "19 total indicted."
Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani, Mark Meadows, John Eastman, Kenneth Chesebro, Jeffrey Clark, Jenna Ellis, Robert Cheeley, Mike Roman, David Shafer, Shawn Still, Stephen Lee, Harrison Floyd, Trevian Kutti, Sidney Powell, Cathy Latham, Scott Hall, Misty Hampton, and Ray Smith
posted by kyrademon at 8:09 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani, Mark Meadows, John Eastman, Kenneth Chesebro, Jeffrey Clark, Jenna Ellis, Robert Cheeley, Mike Roman, David Shafer, Shawn Still, Stephen Lee, Harrison Floyd, Trevian Kutti, Sidney Powell, Cathy Latham, Scott Hall, Misty Hampton, and Ray Smith
posted by kyrademon at 8:09 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
We need a bigger thread.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:13 PM on August 14, 2023
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:13 PM on August 14, 2023
ctrl-f @realdonaldtrump and see him getting nailed for tweets! Those tweets were acts in his criminal conspiracy!
posted by Catblack at 8:29 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Catblack at 8:29 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Remember the Danish journalist who followed Roger Stone around during the Trump regime? I just heard him being interviewed on Danish radio because of yesterday's indictment, and he played a previously unpublished piece of tape, where Stone is explaining the false elector scheme on Nov 5 2019. It was an interesting interview in many ways, specially his description of how close Stone and Trump were, and how that is relevant because of Stone's connection to the Proud Boys.
posted by mumimor at 2:59 AM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 2:59 AM on August 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Trump's legal team seeks to delay federal election interference trial until 2026.
To be fair, they really wanted 'never'.
posted by mazola at 4:59 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
To be fair, they really wanted 'never'.
posted by mazola at 4:59 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Trial set for March 4, 2024. Per Judge Chutkan, in refusing the 2026 date: “To try this case five years later risks that witnesses become unavailable or that memories will fade ... the public has a right to a prompt and efficient resolution of this matter,” she said, adding later that Mr. Trump has “a team of zealous, experienced attorneys” and the resources necessary to mount a defense.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:55 AM on August 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:55 AM on August 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
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