“digging its own grave in search for gold.”
September 13, 2023 5:38 AM Subscribe
Unity has changed its pricing model, and game developers are pissed off [The Verge]
“The news was met with fear, anger, and disgust from the game development community. The primary complaint is that these changes would be particularly harmful to solo, indie, marginalized, and mobile developers. Of particular note is the fact that Unity is assessing these fees based on the number of installs a game has without seeming to account for the many reasons, legal or illegal, a game might have multiple installs without multiple purchases. After a game meets the revenue threshold, if its downloads far outstrip its revenue generation, a developer will be on the hook to pay. Pirated games, demos, games downloaded across multiple devices, and games offered on subscription services like Game Pass are all potentially affected by these new fees. Additionally, there’s the concern that malicious actors could use this information to run up charges by continuously downloading and redownloading games as a form of protest or griefing.”
• Devs React To Unity's Newly Announced Fee For Game Installs: ‘Not To Be Trusted’ [Kotaku]
“We are introducing a Unity Runtime Fee that is based upon each time a qualifying game is downloaded by an end user,” the company shared on its blog. “We chose this because each time a game is downloaded, the Unity Runtime is also installed. Also we believe that an initial install-based fee allows creators to keep the ongoing financial gains from player engagement, unlike a revenue share.”Popular video game engine Unity is making big changes to its pricing structure that’s causing confusion and anger among developers. On Tuesday, Unity announced that on January 1st, 2024, it would be implementing a pay-per-download pricing scheme that would charge developers a flat fee any time a game using Unity software is installed.
“The news was met with fear, anger, and disgust from the game development community. The primary complaint is that these changes would be particularly harmful to solo, indie, marginalized, and mobile developers. Of particular note is the fact that Unity is assessing these fees based on the number of installs a game has without seeming to account for the many reasons, legal or illegal, a game might have multiple installs without multiple purchases. After a game meets the revenue threshold, if its downloads far outstrip its revenue generation, a developer will be on the hook to pay. Pirated games, demos, games downloaded across multiple devices, and games offered on subscription services like Game Pass are all potentially affected by these new fees. Additionally, there’s the concern that malicious actors could use this information to run up charges by continuously downloading and redownloading games as a form of protest or griefing.”
• Devs React To Unity's Newly Announced Fee For Game Installs: ‘Not To Be Trusted’ [Kotaku]
“Xalavier Nelson Jr., head of Strange Scaffold, the indie studio behind games like El Paso, Elsewhere and An Airport For Aliens Currently Run By Dogs, expressed concerns about the entire situation. “This is the danger of modern games and game development cycles becoming exponentially more complicated, lengthy, and prone to immense dependency,” he told Kotaku via DM. “When a decision like this gets announced, and you’re three years into a five-year journey, you have little to no choice. You’re stuck with a partner who may be actively working against your interest, and who you increasingly cannot trust.” Tiani Pixel, indie developer and co-founder of Studio Pixel Punk, the studio behind the 2021 Metroidvania Unsighted, told Kotaku via DM that “there’s a lot of things in Unity’s statement that aren’t clear and are very worrying.” She brought up not only how complicated it is to measure actual installs, but the privacy issues inherent with such a policy. “There are some certifications you need for having such service in your game and releasing it on consoles and other platforms. You need an end-user license agreement (EULA), because you’ll be sending info from the player’s device to an external server. So, will indies be forced to add such DRMs on their games so they can track the installs? Again, Unity does not make it clear. Forcing DRM on games has a long (and bad) history in gaming. Many tools used for this are literally indistinguishable from malwares…There’s no benefit to the devs or the user here.””• Game devs say Unity’s big change puts studios at risk [Polygon]
“Unity’s runtime fee will be collected once a game “has passed a minimum revenue threshold in the last 12 months” and “has passed a minimum lifetime install count,” according to the blog post. Those install fees vary based on Unity pricing plans. Unity Personal and Unity Plus customers must pay $0.20 per install after reaching $200,000 of revenue in the past year and having more than 200,000 lifetime game installs. Unity Pro and Unity Enterprise users will pay $0.15 and $0.125 per install, respectively, after making $1 million in the past year and having more than 1 million lifetime game installs. (Those fees will decrease as higher thresholds are met.) Unity said it set these numbers “to avoid impacting those who have yet to find scale, meaning they don’t need to pay the fee until they have reached significant success.” Free-to-play games will have another option, which is to use Unity’s LevelPlay service for game ads, to offset the fees. “The developers who will be impacted are generally those who have successful games and are generating revenue way above the thresholds,” a Unity representative told Polygon. “This means that developers who are still building their business and growing the audience of their games will not pay a fee.” Lots of game developers on social media and elsewhere don’t see it that way; one particular pain point, aside from eating up revenue, is how the model will impact subscription services like Microsoft’s Game Pass, as well as free demos, charity bundles, and “other models that have been very successful for smaller developers,” Mike Wuetherick, chief technology officer at Blinkmoon, told Polygon.”
RIP to Unity I guess. Was a good game engine. Well, they’ll still have the defence contracts. And maybe the mobile gacha market, which seems to be the only thing that actually care about, will tolerate this, but it’s probably the end of unity for pc and console games.
The important thing of course is that Unity ceo (and former head of Electronic Arts when they were the most reviled name in gaming) John Riccitiello has already cashed out, so he’ll be fine.
posted by rodlymight at 5:55 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
The important thing of course is that Unity ceo (and former head of Electronic Arts when they were the most reviled name in gaming) John Riccitiello has already cashed out, so he’ll be fine.
posted by rodlymight at 5:55 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Been reading about this for a bit now, seems like a really bad decision. As mentioned in the FPP, there are developers who are locked into using Unity due to long development schedules, but the general consensus is that even if you've got 2 years into a project you'd be better off starting over in a new engine than continuing under this regime.
Unity has basically killed all good will any game developer might have had about their product, and they probably won't exist in the next 5 years.
posted by hippybear at 5:56 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Unity has basically killed all good will any game developer might have had about their product, and they probably won't exist in the next 5 years.
posted by hippybear at 5:56 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Somewhere, one finger bends on a monkey’s paw, as Unity manages to be the brand name on everyone’s lips on the day of the iPhone announcements
congratulations on being the big tech story today guys
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:57 AM on September 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
congratulations on being the big tech story today guys
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:57 AM on September 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
I guess this is the other shoe dropping after Unity got bought by an ad company a couple years ago and its former-EA CEO called devs who aren’t laser-focused on profit “fucking idiots”.
posted by egypturnash at 5:58 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 5:58 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I guess they are VERY secure in having made themselves indispensable. Interested in seeing how that plays out.
posted by Artw at 6:01 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:01 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
My dev friends have already switched to Godot.
posted by Headfullofair at 6:02 AM on September 13, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by Headfullofair at 6:02 AM on September 13, 2023 [20 favorites]
former-EA CEO
John Ricitiello, the man who ruined mobile gaming.
posted by Artw at 6:04 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
John Ricitiello, the man who ruined mobile gaming.
posted by Artw at 6:04 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
First it is installs, then it is number of processor cores per install, then it is the number of processor core hours per install, then it is a cut of in-game purchases... this is exactly what Oracle did with its eCommerce software. It is monopoly behavior, and totally exploitative.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:05 AM on September 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:05 AM on September 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
I mean, there would have been a way to do this without being so transparently shitty and self-destructive, right?
Like, step 1 would be "We want a more precise way to track game installs for the end-users"
Step 2 would be "We're introducing different pricing plans for different enterprise levels of developer"
Step 3 would be "We're linking pricing plans with game installs to reduce up-front fees"
and Step 4 would be this current nonsense.
And I just came up with this shit today!
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:11 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Like, step 1 would be "We want a more precise way to track game installs for the end-users"
Step 2 would be "We're introducing different pricing plans for different enterprise levels of developer"
Step 3 would be "We're linking pricing plans with game installs to reduce up-front fees"
and Step 4 would be this current nonsense.
And I just came up with this shit today!
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:11 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Possibly significant, possibly not: the CEO who sold off his shares before doing this is also a Private Equity fuck.
posted by Artw at 6:13 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:13 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Just as a note, gamers, the Unity changes mean the following for you:--from game dev Rami Ismail's Twitter
- Demos are now risky to devs
- DRM-free games are now risky to devs
- Bundles are now risky to devs
- Giveaways are now risky to devs
- Updates are now risky to devs
- Multi-device users are now risky to devs
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:15 AM on September 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
I mean, there would have been a way to do this without being so transparently shitty and self-destructive, right?
Step 1: be greedy
Step 2: destroy anyone who dares to challenge our financial and business acumen
Step 3: ask for a govt handout when we inevitably go out of business due to making poor decisions like this one
Step 4: winning in the marketplace of ideas
posted by Fizz at 6:15 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Step 1: be greedy
Step 2: destroy anyone who dares to challenge our financial and business acumen
Step 3: ask for a govt handout when we inevitably go out of business due to making poor decisions like this one
Step 4: winning in the marketplace of ideas
posted by Fizz at 6:15 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
"We leverage our own proprietary data model, so you can appreciate that we won’t go into a lot of detail, but we believe it gives an accurate determination of the number of times the runtime is distributed for a given project."
They won't and likely can't even tell you how they decided on the amount of money you owe them, this is amazing.
posted by mhoye at 6:21 AM on September 13, 2023 [22 favorites]
They won't and likely can't even tell you how they decided on the amount of money you owe them, this is amazing.
posted by mhoye at 6:21 AM on September 13, 2023 [22 favorites]
This policy is so perfectly designed to destroy any content by/from/about marginalized people that I refuse to believe that's just an accidental side effect. From the Kotaku article:
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:27 AM on September 13, 2023 [36 favorites]
The Verge’s Ash Parrish was quick to point out that the multiple install charges could give right-wing reactionaries a new way to damage a game and/or studio: revenue bombing. If certain groups are angered by, say, a queer character in a game or a Black woman lead (both of which have whipped gamers into a frenzy before), then they could repeatedly install said game over and over again, racking up Unity’s Runtime Fee for the studio.It's like the Metacritic SNAFU on steroids. No longer will it take an extended campaign that relies entirely on passive boycotting, now they can actively destroy your entire financial life in an hour just by clicking buttons.
“I can tell you right now that the folks at risk of this are women devs, queer devs, trans devs, devs of color, devs pushing for accessibility, devs pushing for inclusion—we’ve seen countless malicious actors work together to tank their game scores or ratings,” developer Rami Ismail wrote on X.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:27 AM on September 13, 2023 [36 favorites]
Welp I guess Subnautica 3 is gonna be a while
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:27 AM on September 13, 2023
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:27 AM on September 13, 2023
This is like watching someone stepping on a rake in super slow motion. It's funny, stupid, tragic, and also totally preventable if they just had an ounce of sense in their heads.
I paid money for Unity once back when the only reason to do so was to avoid having to show their logo when your game started up. But that was back when the mobile game market wasn't absolutely, completely, totally fucked up. (It was only totally fucked up. I didn't even make back Apple's store listing fee.)
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:37 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I paid money for Unity once back when the only reason to do so was to avoid having to show their logo when your game started up. But that was back when the mobile game market wasn't absolutely, completely, totally fucked up. (It was only totally fucked up. I didn't even make back Apple's store listing fee.)
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:37 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Unity is walking their plans back
By my read of the linked Axios article that's not actually true. They're basically weasel-wording some clarifications that actually don't walk back the predatory policy in any meaningful way or provide any real protection against install-bombing of free games by coordinated groups.
posted by tclark at 7:00 AM on September 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
By my read of the linked Axios article that's not actually true. They're basically weasel-wording some clarifications that actually don't walk back the predatory policy in any meaningful way or provide any real protection against install-bombing of free games by coordinated groups.
posted by tclark at 7:00 AM on September 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
Yeah, that's not walking it back, these "clarifications" have already been criticized in the articles from the OP.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:04 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:04 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, it's more like explaining a firing squad isn't that bad because not all the guns have bullets in them. That makes it better, right?
posted by Flaffigan at 7:06 AM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Flaffigan at 7:06 AM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
then they could repeatedly install said game over and over again, racking up Unity’s Runtime Fee for the studio.
They wouldn’t even need to, all they will need to do is to trick whatever nasty, hastily-coded DRM scheme Unity comes up with to track installations and send false positives. Voila, you owe Unity for a billion installs but they’ll be magnanimous and compromise at only 100 million.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:11 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
They wouldn’t even need to, all they will need to do is to trick whatever nasty, hastily-coded DRM scheme Unity comes up with to track installations and send false positives. Voila, you owe Unity for a billion installs but they’ll be magnanimous and compromise at only 100 million.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:11 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
As a game dev using Unity, I was really dismayed by this announcement. Not because it will substantially affect my income, but because it was so poorly thought and communicated.
Unity is currently losing around $200 million a quarter. They need some plan to change that.
But I think this will likely not work and may have permanently damaged their reputation, particularly as the "default" engine for game development. And if this doesn't work, I would not be surprised by another sudden pivot in a year or two. This is the thing that most devs are talking about now: Unity, previously the safest choice, has suddenly become a risk in the already very risky business of game development.
There was no reason for this to have been so poorly communicated: all the questions devs have today could have been anticipated.
posted by justkevin at 7:12 AM on September 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
Unity is currently losing around $200 million a quarter. They need some plan to change that.
But I think this will likely not work and may have permanently damaged their reputation, particularly as the "default" engine for game development. And if this doesn't work, I would not be surprised by another sudden pivot in a year or two. This is the thing that most devs are talking about now: Unity, previously the safest choice, has suddenly become a risk in the already very risky business of game development.
There was no reason for this to have been so poorly communicated: all the questions devs have today could have been anticipated.
posted by justkevin at 7:12 AM on September 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
There was no reason for this to have been so poorly communicated: all the questions devs have today could have been anticipated.
Apparently they were. (Bluesky post, I've got a couple of invites if anyone needs one to see that.)
posted by restless_nomad at 7:20 AM on September 13, 2023
Apparently they were. (Bluesky post, I've got a couple of invites if anyone needs one to see that.)
posted by restless_nomad at 7:20 AM on September 13, 2023
via Mastodon:
FAQ from Unity says that for WebGL content in the browser, it counts as an "install" for every "initialization of the runtime on a client device" — which would seem to mean every page load.posted by BungaDunga at 7:23 AM on September 13, 2023 [30 favorites]
Nobody involved in writing this policy understands the product. It's wild that their attempts at clarification are actively making this worse.
The absolute biggest, clearest example of this being a total clusterfuck on the part of Unity execs is that the bluesky post above, the reason they're not saying how their "proprietary data model" works on counting installs is because they don't even know how to count installs yet.
This isn't just a botched rollout of a prima facie predatory business model without clear stops or curbs to protect indie devs, they don't even know how to execute the business model in the first place.
Add Unity to the list of companies that I, personally, could run better than the current batch of idiots in charge.
posted by tclark at 7:36 AM on September 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
This isn't just a botched rollout of a prima facie predatory business model without clear stops or curbs to protect indie devs, they don't even know how to execute the business model in the first place.
Add Unity to the list of companies that I, personally, could run better than the current batch of idiots in charge.
posted by tclark at 7:36 AM on September 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
It says something that this was the talk of both my online circles (gamers and a few game dev hobbyists) and my husband’s (non-game industry professional devs) yesterday.
An extremely bad move on Unity’s part. Interesting and terrible for it to come out on Steam’s anniversary.
posted by May Kasahara at 7:38 AM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
An extremely bad move on Unity’s part. Interesting and terrible for it to come out on Steam’s anniversary.
posted by May Kasahara at 7:38 AM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
How in earth does a game engine company lose $200M a quarter? Honestly perplexed at how that's even possible... it's like the shovel making factory losing money amidst a gold rush.
posted by kaibutsu at 7:42 AM on September 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 7:42 AM on September 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
Cult of the Lamb announced that they're deleting their game on Jan 1.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:46 AM on September 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:46 AM on September 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't develop in Unity but I have developed commercially with Qt. I'm already out of popcorn.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:54 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:54 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
What's the story with Qt?
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:56 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 7:56 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Qt uses this wacky hybrid opensource/commercial model where you have to pick a track before you start and stick with it. With version 6 they've reworked the commercial licensing into a subscription model. Existing customers get twisted around all the time with new licensing requirements.
Qt is a very powerful cross-platform GUI toolkit, especially for embedded systems, but navigating your higher-ups through the maze of business and legal decisions to choose between the two models just isn't worth it. There are other problematic details, like going to LGPL/GPL3 recently which is pretty much a showstopper for closed systems like automotive or medical.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:00 AM on September 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Qt is a very powerful cross-platform GUI toolkit, especially for embedded systems, but navigating your higher-ups through the maze of business and legal decisions to choose between the two models just isn't worth it. There are other problematic details, like going to LGPL/GPL3 recently which is pretty much a showstopper for closed systems like automotive or medical.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:00 AM on September 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
How in earth does a game engine company lose $200M a quarter? Honestly perplexed at how that's even possible... it's like the shovel making factory losing money amidst a gold rush.
Short answer: they have 7000 employees and most of their revenue comes from a relatively small number of big companies (fewer than 500 in 2020). Their current price model (seat licenses plus various services) doesn't generate enough revenue from those companies to pay all the salaries, rent, marketing, etc.
Long answers:
Original S-1 filing
Most recent 10-Q
posted by justkevin at 8:03 AM on September 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
Short answer: they have 7000 employees and most of their revenue comes from a relatively small number of big companies (fewer than 500 in 2020). Their current price model (seat licenses plus various services) doesn't generate enough revenue from those companies to pay all the salaries, rent, marketing, etc.
Long answers:
Original S-1 filing
Most recent 10-Q
posted by justkevin at 8:03 AM on September 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
I don't love these changes but the new pricing only starts after a threshold of revenue and installs. $200,000 revenue / 200,000 installs for the free Unity Personal license. That doesn't ruin experiments and small indie games. It does mean you're paying a significant royalty if you're trying to make a living with your games though. And as folks have pointed out, charging per-install is fraught with all sorts of problems.
As mentioned above Godot is the up-and-coming alternative. It's free and open source. This week they announced a new development fund. People seemed excited about it but I think it's just a voluntary donation thing. They are posting total revenue of about €3.3M / year now. Mostly it's them shifting off of Patreon to their own fundraising.
I'm not an expert but my impression is Godot is pretty limited compared to Unity. OTOH it's also good enough for real use. This Unity change may give Godot a lot of momentum.
posted by Nelson at 8:16 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
As mentioned above Godot is the up-and-coming alternative. It's free and open source. This week they announced a new development fund. People seemed excited about it but I think it's just a voluntary donation thing. They are posting total revenue of about €3.3M / year now. Mostly it's them shifting off of Patreon to their own fundraising.
I'm not an expert but my impression is Godot is pretty limited compared to Unity. OTOH it's also good enough for real use. This Unity change may give Godot a lot of momentum.
posted by Nelson at 8:16 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's been a minute since I did any game dev but my recollection is that a large fraction of expensive assets are totally portable, simply because the toolchain is so complex. It will definitely be a hike to refit production for a different engine but it's not like you'll have to remodel, reskin or rerig anything. It's like saying "now you have to pay a toll to cross this bridge based on the value of what crosses it" thinking you're the only bridge in town that people can drive trains over but surprise, there's a publicly owned bridge that can handle trucks. That's not going to work. And they knew about the other bridges when they said this. It's shatteringly stupid.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:17 AM on September 13, 2023
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:17 AM on September 13, 2023
Unity is in deep trouble. You don't need 8,000 employees to make and ship a game engine. Every bit of their business since IPO, lock stock and barrel, is tied to "value added" services, primarily advertising-related. They were very plain about the risks in their S1 filing. Unless the ad business takes off, Unity as a company doesn't exist.
These new "runtime fees" are waived if you start buying Unity's various cloud offerings and integrating Unity's advertising platforms into your game. They've said so repeatedly, from their initial press release (scroll down to "fee reduction") to every press item that asks the CEO's office for comment (search for "LevelPlay")
This is a desperate, last-ditch attempt to bolster their failing businesses. At this point, the company is in so much trouble, they are willing to cannibalize their one successful product (the engine) to try and re-start growth in their array of failing services (so-called "Operate Solutions" in the S1).
Unity doesn't want anyone to actually pay these fees. They want game developers to call up their account executives and start buying ad services. I don't think that is gonna work out for them. They grew headcount too fast, speculated too heavily on ad tracking technologies, got burned badly by Apple privacy changes, and now they have no good choices left.
posted by your postings may, in fact, be signed at 8:35 AM on September 13, 2023 [33 favorites]
These new "runtime fees" are waived if you start buying Unity's various cloud offerings and integrating Unity's advertising platforms into your game. They've said so repeatedly, from their initial press release (scroll down to "fee reduction") to every press item that asks the CEO's office for comment (search for "LevelPlay")
This is a desperate, last-ditch attempt to bolster their failing businesses. At this point, the company is in so much trouble, they are willing to cannibalize their one successful product (the engine) to try and re-start growth in their array of failing services (so-called "Operate Solutions" in the S1).
Unity doesn't want anyone to actually pay these fees. They want game developers to call up their account executives and start buying ad services. I don't think that is gonna work out for them. They grew headcount too fast, speculated too heavily on ad tracking technologies, got burned badly by Apple privacy changes, and now they have no good choices left.
posted by your postings may, in fact, be signed at 8:35 AM on September 13, 2023 [33 favorites]
The market doesn't seem to love this announcement. The stock dropped 7-8% today, while NASDAQ is about steady. The company is worth about 20% of its peak valuation in November 2021 or about half its price after the IPO.
Things have to be awfully uncomfortable over in the executive office and boardroom. John Riccitiello has been in charge since 2014.
posted by Nelson at 8:54 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Things have to be awfully uncomfortable over in the executive office and boardroom. John Riccitiello has been in charge since 2014.
posted by Nelson at 8:54 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
So the companies that make up the $347 Billion video game industry are being subjected to exactly the kind of short-sighted money grubbing nickel-dime bullshit that they pull on end customers? Oh this is delicious. Perhaps the whole industry will eventually eat itself in a microtransaction-ouroboros.
To pre-empt the concern trolling:
"Video game developers" aren't a class, and they certainly aren't an oppressed class. There are video game bosses and there are video game workers, just like every big business. There are small developers just like there are small landlords. I'll play a slightly sadder song on a slightly larger violin for the petit-bourgeouisie than I do for the big-bourgeouisie.
posted by Krawczak at 9:00 AM on September 13, 2023
To pre-empt the concern trolling:
"Video game developers" aren't a class, and they certainly aren't an oppressed class. There are video game bosses and there are video game workers, just like every big business. There are small developers just like there are small landlords. I'll play a slightly sadder song on a slightly larger violin for the petit-bourgeouisie than I do for the big-bourgeouisie.
posted by Krawczak at 9:00 AM on September 13, 2023
What a hateful framing.
posted by Nelson at 9:01 AM on September 13, 2023 [31 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 9:01 AM on September 13, 2023 [31 favorites]
As a former video game industry communications professional, I gotta say this was the most unneccessarily fucked-up announcement I think I've ever seen. Unclear, obviously rushed, framed in a maximally negative way - honestly given the news of Riccitello unloading company stock a few days ago, I'm almost willing to believe it was deliberately bad.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:02 AM on September 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 9:02 AM on September 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
There are small developers just like there are small landlords
That is a completely nonsensical framing of indie devs. They are not like landlords, not even remotely. And nobody is calling them an "oppressed class." JFC.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:11 AM on September 13, 2023 [27 favorites]
That is a completely nonsensical framing of indie devs. They are not like landlords, not even remotely. And nobody is calling them an "oppressed class." JFC.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:11 AM on September 13, 2023 [27 favorites]
Small Landlords? You mean the Kulaks? I know that story well. Let's not go down that road.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:14 AM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:14 AM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
They're collecting data on (at least) installs, reinstalls, and various devices per customer? And they're upending existing pricing for people with projects in the pipeline that are a fairly captive market for that pipeline?
Oh yeah, the EU is gonna love that, no possible repercussions on that front.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:38 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Oh yeah, the EU is gonna love that, no possible repercussions on that front.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:38 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
> They're collecting data on (at least) installs, reinstalls, and various devices per customer?
Part of the problem is that no one knows how they intend to determine that. They've implied that their methods would be proprietary and secret, so you just have to trust them.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:42 AM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Part of the problem is that no one knows how they intend to determine that. They've implied that their methods would be proprietary and secret, so you just have to trust them.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:42 AM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oracle is a good analogy -- they had tremendous goodwill and "defaultness" with Java, which gave them a ton of advantages, then they turned the revenue screws. Saw the same thing with MySQL -> Postgres too.
I hope Godot evolves into the default choice for small/medium devs at least. Maybe it all depends on how well ChatGPT learns GDScript (or the C# API should they get AOT working).
posted by credulous at 9:47 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
I hope Godot evolves into the default choice for small/medium devs at least. Maybe it all depends on how well ChatGPT learns GDScript (or the C# API should they get AOT working).
posted by credulous at 9:47 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
> the news of Riccitello unloading company stock a few days ago,
His wife sold stock ($80k worth, of the $140 million total that the couple owns), in a sale that was scheduled back in May. Unity is making a shitty business choice, but not one that is motivated by some naive insider trading theory.
posted by riotnrrd at 9:49 AM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
His wife sold stock ($80k worth, of the $140 million total that the couple owns), in a sale that was scheduled back in May. Unity is making a shitty business choice, but not one that is motivated by some naive insider trading theory.
posted by riotnrrd at 9:49 AM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
@credulous - The OGL Fiasco early this year is a direct comparison.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:00 AM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:00 AM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hmm, I was thinking of making a new non-game app and deciding between React Native (unreliable megacorp) and Flutter (unreliable megacorp) and never considered ... why not Godot for apps? (for at least certain kinds of apps...)
posted by credulous at 10:08 AM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by credulous at 10:08 AM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
They thought about that use-case, because the Godot IDE is itself built in Godot.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:11 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:11 AM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's like saying "now you have to pay a toll to cross this bridge based on the value of what crosses it" thinking you're the only bridge in town that people can drive trains over but surprise, there's a publicly owned bridge that can handle trucks. That's not going to work.
If you include...
Unity has lost a lot of good will but it's not clear to me that they've judged incorrectly. They have a captive audience that doesn't have any solid alternatives at the moment.
On the other hand on the personal front this comes at a fortuitous time for me. I've got a small game in mind and was just about to bring myself back up to speed on Unity. Godot will certainly do for my meager needs.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:26 AM on September 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
If you include...
- There are tens of thousands of people who have trained their entire professional lives to drive trains
- There are about a hundred who can drive trucks
- Said truck is a shiny new F-150.
Unity has lost a lot of good will but it's not clear to me that they've judged incorrectly. They have a captive audience that doesn't have any solid alternatives at the moment.
On the other hand on the personal front this comes at a fortuitous time for me. I've got a small game in mind and was just about to bring myself back up to speed on Unity. Godot will certainly do for my meager needs.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:26 AM on September 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
What exists as far as legal protections against such bait-and-switch tactics? Why are they allowed to unilaterally change the terms of a contract?
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:45 AM on September 13, 2023
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:45 AM on September 13, 2023
Related info:
Unity Criticised For Merging With Known Malware Distributor (July 2022)
Unity boss John Riccitiello faces sexual harassment lawsuit from former exec (June 2019)
posted by AlSweigart at 11:21 AM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Unity Criticised For Merging With Known Malware Distributor (July 2022)
Unity boss John Riccitiello faces sexual harassment lawsuit from former exec (June 2019)
posted by AlSweigart at 11:21 AM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
legal protections against such bait-and-switch tactics
I'm curious about this too. Do the new license terms apply even to previously released and finished games if the developer doesn't make another release? What about games currently in development?
The FAQ page from Unity phrases this all in terms of subscriptions. The new terms when a subscription is renewed (typically annually). That's one of the drawbacks of this bravenew old world of subscriptions and software leasing. The terms can change out from under you.
Depending on how retroactive this license change is we might see developers removing older games from the market to avoid the headache and/or fees.
Also relevant: updated their license to remove the clause that lets you use the TOS from the version you shipped with, then insists games already shipped need to pay the new fees. I haven't verified this info.
posted by Nelson at 11:28 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm curious about this too. Do the new license terms apply even to previously released and finished games if the developer doesn't make another release? What about games currently in development?
The FAQ page from Unity phrases this all in terms of subscriptions. The new terms when a subscription is renewed (typically annually). That's one of the drawbacks of this brave
Depending on how retroactive this license change is we might see developers removing older games from the market to avoid the headache and/or fees.
Also relevant: updated their license to remove the clause that lets you use the TOS from the version you shipped with, then insists games already shipped need to pay the new fees. I haven't verified this info.
posted by Nelson at 11:28 AM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is a pretty strong incentive to remove games from the market after a certain point. If you make $199k and have 199,000 installs you really want to make sure no one ever buys or installs the game again. Say goodbye to those Steam sales or bargin-bin sales at GameStop.
posted by blue_beetle at 11:31 AM on September 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 11:31 AM on September 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
If I install something that uses Unity today and the engine installs, and I install a different Unity-based game tomorrow, don't I already have the engine installed? How do you justify charging devs for me to use something I might already have?
Headfullofair: "My dev friends have already switched to Godot."
I tried to download that, but all I got was a prompt that said "Waiting..."
posted by caution live frogs at 11:35 AM on September 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
Headfullofair: "My dev friends have already switched to Godot."
I tried to download that, but all I got was a prompt that said "Waiting..."
posted by caution live frogs at 11:35 AM on September 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
If I install something that uses Unity today and the engine installs, and I install a different Unity-based game tomorrow, don't I already have the engine installed?
That's not really how it works - an engine is kinda the skeleton of the game, and is built out/modified specifically from there to suit a given game. There's no way to strip it back down to a default skeleton again and bolt another game onto it.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:39 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's not really how it works - an engine is kinda the skeleton of the game, and is built out/modified specifically from there to suit a given game. There's no way to strip it back down to a default skeleton again and bolt another game onto it.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:39 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think of it sort of like a music format. Unity might be a record, while another engine might be a CD or whatever. You can do the same thing on both media, but you can't load a new album onto a record or a CD, the underpinning is intrinsic to the final media object.
posted by hippybear at 11:50 AM on September 13, 2023
posted by hippybear at 11:50 AM on September 13, 2023
This is a pretty strong incentive to remove games from the market after a certain point.
This was my thinking as well. A lot of games out there are going to be near that threshold, as you say. A lot of games, too, will have already made most of the money they're going to make through sales but still see a lot of install/uninstall/reinstall churn. The idea of developers starting to get bills for games that haven't earned them money in years will see a lot of those games removed/delisted, I would think. This will be a disaster for game preservation and history-keeping, alongside being disastrous for the hobby in general.
posted by penduluum at 11:55 AM on September 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
This was my thinking as well. A lot of games out there are going to be near that threshold, as you say. A lot of games, too, will have already made most of the money they're going to make through sales but still see a lot of install/uninstall/reinstall churn. The idea of developers starting to get bills for games that haven't earned them money in years will see a lot of those games removed/delisted, I would think. This will be a disaster for game preservation and history-keeping, alongside being disastrous for the hobby in general.
posted by penduluum at 11:55 AM on September 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
The important thing of course is that Unity ceo (and former head of Electronic Arts when they were the most reviled name in gaming) John Riccitiello has already cashed out, so he’ll be fine.
He's a shit CEO, paid way too much, but that's not that. As CEO he's most-likely on a determined schedule with only certain windows he can sell in just because that's about the only way to sell his stock without it being insider trading.
That sounds like a spectacularly bad idea, just because installs is a really bad proxy. On the other hand, as a dev, I'd say the current cost of those engines is underpriced. It's underpriced so that tons of small dev can fund the content and throw everything against the wall to see if it sticks, then Unity can collect a small (or big) fee if it's a success. The devs are getting incredible value for what they pay.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 12:03 PM on September 13, 2023
He's a shit CEO, paid way too much, but that's not that. As CEO he's most-likely on a determined schedule with only certain windows he can sell in just because that's about the only way to sell his stock without it being insider trading.
That sounds like a spectacularly bad idea, just because installs is a really bad proxy. On the other hand, as a dev, I'd say the current cost of those engines is underpriced. It's underpriced so that tons of small dev can fund the content and throw everything against the wall to see if it sticks, then Unity can collect a small (or big) fee if it's a success. The devs are getting incredible value for what they pay.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 12:03 PM on September 13, 2023
It's worse than that though. If they're doing it by downloads, that means it wouldn't be limited to removing games from market. People who have already bought games would lose access to the ability to reinstall it.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 12:05 PM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 12:05 PM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Did I miss the part where Hasbro purchased Unity?
posted by Flunkie at 12:24 PM on September 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 12:24 PM on September 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
What happens when gamers get pissed off at the dev, and start install-bombing? I wonder how hard it is to spoof unity telemetry. Like, there's lots of information on how to block it via firewalls and the like, and there's at least one project that blocks it by replacing the tracking dlls with dlls that don't phone home to unity (I'm assuming there are piratey reasons to do this). But what if someone made a dll that sent bogus install information to Unity? Illegal, but people get really angry about gaming.
That'd be bad news for the dev, but it'd also be bad news for Unity if one could demonstrate that thier install numbers were inflated.
posted by surlyben at 12:37 PM on September 13, 2023
That'd be bad news for the dev, but it'd also be bad news for Unity if one could demonstrate that thier install numbers were inflated.
posted by surlyben at 12:37 PM on September 13, 2023
Initially they said that it was per install. That means that I could write a script to install and uninstall a game repeatedly, run it over the weekend, and cost the developer a ton of money.
My guess is that older games don't have the magic "phone home" code, and are untraceable as far as Unity's concerned, as long as they don't update their engine. I haven't seen anything about how the Unity folks know that a game's been downloaded/installed, so there's still a lot of guesswork about all this.
posted by Spike Glee at 12:41 PM on September 13, 2023
My guess is that older games don't have the magic "phone home" code, and are untraceable as far as Unity's concerned, as long as they don't update their engine. I haven't seen anything about how the Unity folks know that a game's been downloaded/installed, so there's still a lot of guesswork about all this.
posted by Spike Glee at 12:41 PM on September 13, 2023
It’s my understanding that paying $1800/yr for Unity Pro avoids the per-install fee?
I don’t understand the tempest here.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:43 PM on September 13, 2023
I don’t understand the tempest here.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:43 PM on September 13, 2023
This is a pretty strong incentive to remove games from the market after a certain point. If you make $199k and have 199,000 installs you really want to make sure no one ever buys or installs the game again.
Because you’ll pay $1.50 when they install it? For the big clients this is aimed at that’ll total — maybe — 5% of the purchase price.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:48 PM on September 13, 2023
Because you’ll pay $1.50 when they install it? For the big clients this is aimed at that’ll total — maybe — 5% of the purchase price.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:48 PM on September 13, 2023
What happens when gamers get pissed off at the dev, and start install-bombing?
What happens to Metafilter when people start posting spam?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:53 PM on September 13, 2023
What happens to Metafilter when people start posting spam?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:53 PM on September 13, 2023
How is that in any way related? Metafilter is not paying anyone a flat fee per post, so it is not an effective way to bankrupt them. It's annoying, not financially crippling.
posted by tavella at 12:57 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 12:57 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Enshittification is the runaway favorite for word of the year.
posted by a complicated history at 1:00 PM on September 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by a complicated history at 1:00 PM on September 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
It’s my understanding that paying $1800/yr for Unity Pro avoids the per-install fee?
Pro raises the threshold to $1M year/1M lifetime installs, but it's still there. A successful release for any studio larger than 1 or 2 devs is going to surpass $1 million, depending on how Unity decides to measure it (whether this is measured as money that the developer makes vs. money that the platform collects).
The million installs is a higher bar that few paid PC titles reach, but not ridiculously high for F2P games. It's also very unclear how this bar is measured. A million copies sold is a lot. Having a combined total of a million demos, pirated copies and copies sold is not so much.
The bigger concern for most devs is that clearly Unity hopes this will raise substantial revenue from someone. If that doesn't happen, it is a reasonable assumption that they will either raise the fee or lower the bar, possibly with only a few months notice.
posted by justkevin at 1:03 PM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Pro raises the threshold to $1M year/1M lifetime installs, but it's still there. A successful release for any studio larger than 1 or 2 devs is going to surpass $1 million, depending on how Unity decides to measure it (whether this is measured as money that the developer makes vs. money that the platform collects).
The million installs is a higher bar that few paid PC titles reach, but not ridiculously high for F2P games. It's also very unclear how this bar is measured. A million copies sold is a lot. Having a combined total of a million demos, pirated copies and copies sold is not so much.
The bigger concern for most devs is that clearly Unity hopes this will raise substantial revenue from someone. If that doesn't happen, it is a reasonable assumption that they will either raise the fee or lower the bar, possibly with only a few months notice.
posted by justkevin at 1:03 PM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I saw some comments on Hacker News that the requirement goes away if you use their built in ad service. It makes sense. The revenue from it lasts as long as people keep playing the game.
posted by Spike Glee at 1:07 PM on September 13, 2023
posted by Spike Glee at 1:07 PM on September 13, 2023
What happens to Metafilter when people start posting spam?
If I recall correctly, Metafilter charges $5 per account that gets caught posting spam. More broadly, the problem of spam took a lot of time and effort to sort of solve, and it's not solved even a little bit in those cases where the organization has no financial incentive to solve it. See: ads in operating systems, and Google, Amazon, Facebook everything which is so full of spam that it's hard to even notice the spam anymore.
posted by surlyben at 1:36 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
If I recall correctly, Metafilter charges $5 per account that gets caught posting spam. More broadly, the problem of spam took a lot of time and effort to sort of solve, and it's not solved even a little bit in those cases where the organization has no financial incentive to solve it. See: ads in operating systems, and Google, Amazon, Facebook everything which is so full of spam that it's hard to even notice the spam anymore.
posted by surlyben at 1:36 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
If I gross $1M from my Unity game they can have my first-born
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 2:04 PM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 2:04 PM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also relevant: updated their license to remove the clause that lets you use the TOS from the version you shipped with, then insists games already shipped need to pay the new fees. I haven't verified this info.
I think this is most egregious in a shitshow of changes. From the Ars Technica article about this:
I have a bunch of games on steam, GoG etc. With fibre internet, every bigger install sizes and a small (but quick!) NVMe drive, I regularly purge installs of games once I'm done with them, then just re-install later when I want to play again; and maybe a copy on my laptop etc. One of the few conveniences of the not-really-owning-games era. So now that retroactively is gonna cost the devs by helping bump them straight onto the chargable tier for new installs from day 1. And how the hell is that going to work with something like Geforce NOW, where I can play my existing steam library on cloud servers - an install fee every time I fire up a session?
I can see why devs are talking about removing their existing games entirely from availability so they don't get hit with this. Which then forks over anyone who hasn't installed it by the deadline, or say, removes games from their PC to save space then can't get them back...
Way to turn your massively popular industry-leading brand into a dumpster fire overnight there geniuses.
It’s my understanding that paying $1800/yr for Unity Pro avoids the per-install fee?
It does not, it just lowers it from $0.20 to $0.15 per install, reducing further as your per-month installs rises. It does raise the thresholds before per-install fees kick in though, so for some small or mid-sized devs it may be cheaper than sticking with the previously "free forever" tier. Unity Pro is also per-seat for devs - and who knows what else they'll change now they've decided previously shipped versions of Unity retroactively fall under the new terms?
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:06 PM on September 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
I think this is most egregious in a shitshow of changes. From the Ars Technica article about this:
In a late Tuesday post on the Unity forums, though, a spokesperson clarified the company's legal position on the change after consulting with a lawyer, saying:...
"Our terms of service provide that Unity may add or change fees at any time. We are providing more than three months advance notice of the Unity Runtime Fee before it goes into effect. Consent is not required for additional fees to take effect, and the only version of our terms is the most current version; you simply cannot choose to comply with a prior version. Further, our terms are governed by California law, notwithstanding the country of the customer."
Many developers expressed particular outrage over the idea that the new fee structure will apply to previously existing Unity games, not just those developed or released after the new fees go into effect next year. While installs made before January 1, 2024, will not incur any per-install fees, those previous installs will be used to help calculate whether a game meets the applicable "lifetime installs" threshold, according to Unity's FAQ.This is especially galling when they said in 2019:
"When you obtain a version of Unity, and don’t upgrade your project, we think you should be able to stick to that version of the TOS. In practice, that is only possible if you have access to bug fixes. For this reason, we now allow users to continue to use the TOS for the same major (year-based) version number, including Long Term Stable (LTS) builds that you are using in your project."Retroactively changing the terms so previously released games on the completely free tier - including e.g. all those indies that handed out licences like candy via Humble Bundle et al - now will have to pay if their total lifetime installs including pre-ToS change ones exceed 200k is some 100% pure-grade horseshit.
In practice, that is only possible if you have access to bug fixes. For this reason, we now allow users to continue to use the TOS for the same major (year-based) version number, including Long Term Stable (LTS) builds that you are using in your project.
I have a bunch of games on steam, GoG etc. With fibre internet, every bigger install sizes and a small (but quick!) NVMe drive, I regularly purge installs of games once I'm done with them, then just re-install later when I want to play again; and maybe a copy on my laptop etc. One of the few conveniences of the not-really-owning-games era. So now that retroactively is gonna cost the devs by helping bump them straight onto the chargable tier for new installs from day 1. And how the hell is that going to work with something like Geforce NOW, where I can play my existing steam library on cloud servers - an install fee every time I fire up a session?
I can see why devs are talking about removing their existing games entirely from availability so they don't get hit with this. Which then forks over anyone who hasn't installed it by the deadline, or say, removes games from their PC to save space then can't get them back...
Way to turn your massively popular industry-leading brand into a dumpster fire overnight there geniuses.
It’s my understanding that paying $1800/yr for Unity Pro avoids the per-install fee?
It does not, it just lowers it from $0.20 to $0.15 per install, reducing further as your per-month installs rises. It does raise the thresholds before per-install fees kick in though, so for some small or mid-sized devs it may be cheaper than sticking with the previously "free forever" tier. Unity Pro is also per-seat for devs - and who knows what else they'll change now they've decided previously shipped versions of Unity retroactively fall under the new terms?
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:06 PM on September 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
As an indie game developer who uses Godot, I consider this great news. Godot picked exactly the right moment to launch their new funding drive. (Now, if only I made enough money on anything recent to be affected by a fee like this... Well, maybe the next one will be a hit.)
posted by novalis_dt at 3:10 PM on September 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by novalis_dt at 3:10 PM on September 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I can see why devs are talking about removing their existing games entirely from availability so they don't get hit with this.
This is liable to produce an indie game apocalypse worse than the Flash sunset did...
posted by BungaDunga at 3:27 PM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is liable to produce an indie game apocalypse worse than the Flash sunset did...
posted by BungaDunga at 3:27 PM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
So the companies that make up the $347 Billion video game industry are being subjected to exactly the kind of short-sighted money grubbing nickel-dime bullshit that they pull on end customers?
Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but isn’t it exactly those companies who aren’t pulling as much of this ads-and-microtransactions bullshit on end users who would be the most negatively-affected by this change?
posted by en forme de poire at 3:29 PM on September 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but isn’t it exactly those companies who aren’t pulling as much of this ads-and-microtransactions bullshit on end users who would be the most negatively-affected by this change?
posted by en forme de poire at 3:29 PM on September 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
More broadly, the problem of spam took a lot of time and effort to sort of solve, and it's not solved even a little bit in those cases where the organization has no financial incentive to solve it.
Fair point.
On the other hand the license scheme looks like it's based on sales, not demos. In order for people to reinstall the game they have to have bought it in the first place, which means the reason for install bombing would have to be something that was added to the game after the person bought it in the first place. It seems like a narrow case.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:41 PM on September 13, 2023
Fair point.
On the other hand the license scheme looks like it's based on sales, not demos. In order for people to reinstall the game they have to have bought it in the first place, which means the reason for install bombing would have to be something that was added to the game after the person bought it in the first place. It seems like a narrow case.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:41 PM on September 13, 2023
Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but isn’t it exactly those companies who aren’t pulling as much of this ads-and-microtransactions bullshit on end users who would be the most negatively-affected by this change?
It's even worse - it actively encourages ads and microtransactions. The previous revenue share setup meant the more money you made, the more you paid (once you went over the threshold). By scrapping that and switching to a per-install fee, you're better off having a low price (or free, with ads) just to cover the install fee, then cranking up the in-game/microtransactions to the max which you no longer have to share. "Unity - for your next freemium pay-to-play monstrosity!"
On the other hand the license scheme looks like it's based on sales, not demos.
Installs, not sales. If your demo includes the runtime - which it will, of course, to make the demo actually run - it counts as an install; as will potentially pirated copies. So if you sell 1 copy, but also have 9 pirate/demo installs, you now have 10 install fees to pay - assuming you're also over the total revenue (not profit) threshold of $200k per annum. So totally free games should still be OK, but it'd be super easy to have installs massively exceed sales - especially if say, you've sold a cheap licence to Game Pass to get your game out there, which can see millions of installs. Plus the privacy impact for gamers as Unity phones home to track.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:56 PM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's even worse - it actively encourages ads and microtransactions. The previous revenue share setup meant the more money you made, the more you paid (once you went over the threshold). By scrapping that and switching to a per-install fee, you're better off having a low price (or free, with ads) just to cover the install fee, then cranking up the in-game/microtransactions to the max which you no longer have to share. "Unity - for your next freemium pay-to-play monstrosity!"
On the other hand the license scheme looks like it's based on sales, not demos.
Installs, not sales. If your demo includes the runtime - which it will, of course, to make the demo actually run - it counts as an install; as will potentially pirated copies. So if you sell 1 copy, but also have 9 pirate/demo installs, you now have 10 install fees to pay - assuming you're also over the total revenue (not profit) threshold of $200k per annum. So totally free games should still be OK, but it'd be super easy to have installs massively exceed sales - especially if say, you've sold a cheap licence to Game Pass to get your game out there, which can see millions of installs. Plus the privacy impact for gamers as Unity phones home to track.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:56 PM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
I heard they made a statement that pirated copies won't count, but with no indication how they could possibly know which is which.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 4:05 PM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 4:05 PM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
which means the reason for install bombing would have to be something that was added to the game after the person bought it in the first place
If you think so, I have some very bad news regarding human behaviour, particularly where video games are concerned.
posted by BetaRayBiff at 4:11 PM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
If you think so, I have some very bad news regarding human behaviour, particularly where video games are concerned.
posted by BetaRayBiff at 4:11 PM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
There is apparently no plan to have unity games phone home, or indication of how they will work out how many installs there are, which, uh
posted by Sebmojo at 4:17 PM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 4:17 PM on September 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Unity has issued some clarifications to the main questions everyone's asking. Lots of emphasis on them only counting installs after Jan 1 2024. Apologies for the link to the white supremacist speech platform but many corporations haven't gotten the memo yet. They updated their website too.
posted by Nelson at 4:34 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 4:34 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lots of emphasis on them only counting installs developers deleting their games after Jan 1 2024.
posted by hippybear at 4:38 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 4:38 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
So according to the clarification, they're not going to count demos, pirates, devops, web games, charity installs, 'malicious intent', or reinstalls. Yet also not going to track installs by phoning home or require DRM, while also not controlling the distribution platforms. Uuuuhuh. I guess the mechanism is 'we'll pick the top 10% of Unity developers by revenue and set a fee that feels about right'.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 5:41 PM on September 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 5:41 PM on September 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
so basically the plan seems to be that they have an entirely opaque mechanism by which they count or estimate installs, and I guess you'll be allowed to contest it, in which case they'll decide whether they were wrong?
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:27 PM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:27 PM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
And one developer's already planning on delisting a game. If you want Cult of the Lamb, get it before Jan 1.
https://www.pcgamesn.com/cult-of-the-lamb/deleted
posted by Spike Glee at 6:43 PM on September 13, 2023
https://www.pcgamesn.com/cult-of-the-lamb/deleted
posted by Spike Glee at 6:43 PM on September 13, 2023
So according to the clarification, they're not going to count demos, pirates, devops, web games, charity installs, 'malicious intent', or reinstalls.
Even assuming all that goes exactly how one might hope it does, it still completely screws over people who have a title in gamepass or playstation plus or something.
posted by juv3nal at 7:28 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Even assuming all that goes exactly how one might hope it does, it still completely screws over people who have a title in gamepass or playstation plus or something.
posted by juv3nal at 7:28 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
so basically the plan seems to be that they have an entirely opaque mechanism by which they count or estimate installs, and I guess you'll be allowed to contest it, in which case they'll decide whether they were wrong?
The only remaining interview question for Unity is "Who is your GDPR Compliance Officer and where can I sign their condolences card?"
posted by Slackermagee at 8:31 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
The only remaining interview question for Unity is "Who is your GDPR Compliance Officer and where can I sign their condolences card?"
posted by Slackermagee at 8:31 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Further, our terms are governed by California law, notwithstanding the country of the customer.
Uhhhh.... can they.... can they just do that? It would seem weird to me that you could sell software and/or software services in EU countries and somehow not be subject to EU laws.
posted by mhum at 8:40 PM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Uhhhh.... can they.... can they just do that? It would seem weird to me that you could sell software and/or software services in EU countries and somehow not be subject to EU laws.
posted by mhum at 8:40 PM on September 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Weren't they saying something about how their license is governed exclusively by the law of California? Was that them suggesting they think they don't need to abide by European law?
On preview, what mhum said.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:41 PM on September 13, 2023
On preview, what mhum said.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:41 PM on September 13, 2023
Yeah, that's them floating the trial balloon that the EU and their laws don't matter. This will definitely hit developers who live and work in Europe, and there's no framework under which EU laws don't apply to EU citizens living and working in the EU.
posted by hippybear at 8:43 PM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:43 PM on September 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
So according to the clarification, they're not going to count demos, pirates, devops, web games, charity installs, 'malicious intent', or reinstalls.
It's stuff like this that seems like absolute clownshoes management, that none of this has been even considered outside a board room of yes-people who don't understand their product.
Demos, devops, webgames, and charity installs? Sure, there could be flags for that.
Pirates? That's like the local Subaru dealership tallying car theft in their yearly sales. If Unity could reliably detect piracy at a monetization level, they could switch to a more lucrative business.
'Malicious intent' - I guess they're asking ChatGPT what evil lurks in the hearts of men
Reinstalls... appears to run counter to the idea that each install will cost a fee? I assume they're considering some kind of threshold to define this, and I can't wait to see how poorly thought out that is.
posted by BetaRayBiff at 9:21 PM on September 13, 2023
It's stuff like this that seems like absolute clownshoes management, that none of this has been even considered outside a board room of yes-people who don't understand their product.
Demos, devops, webgames, and charity installs? Sure, there could be flags for that.
Pirates? That's like the local Subaru dealership tallying car theft in their yearly sales. If Unity could reliably detect piracy at a monetization level, they could switch to a more lucrative business.
'Malicious intent' - I guess they're asking ChatGPT what evil lurks in the hearts of men
Reinstalls... appears to run counter to the idea that each install will cost a fee? I assume they're considering some kind of threshold to define this, and I can't wait to see how poorly thought out that is.
posted by BetaRayBiff at 9:21 PM on September 13, 2023
Game dev on Twitter:
Don't let Unity trick you with "90% of users won't be affected"
Basically every indie studio that most gamers know about are in the 10%
Unity has a lot of usage by hobbyists and students that aren't currently releasing games, so this data doesn't matter and is very misleading
posted by mediareport at 9:34 PM on September 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Don't let Unity trick you with "90% of users won't be affected"
Basically every indie studio that most gamers know about are in the 10%
Unity has a lot of usage by hobbyists and students that aren't currently releasing games, so this data doesn't matter and is very misleading
posted by mediareport at 9:34 PM on September 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Uhhhh.... can they.... can they just do that? It would seem weird to me that you could sell software and/or software services in EU countries and somehow not be subject to EU laws.
They can't. If you're doing business in the EU, or handling EU citizen data, there's no endrun around it, you're subject to EU law and EU courts. Just like most countries. Whether the new ToS in and of themselves are in violation of EU law is a different question of course, but certainly anything that does end up tracking EU users or collating data about them (particularly given they are not Unity customers - the developers are, and would have to e.g. be the ones to seek consent) is an area with honking great bear traps.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 9:35 PM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
They can't. If you're doing business in the EU, or handling EU citizen data, there's no endrun around it, you're subject to EU law and EU courts. Just like most countries. Whether the new ToS in and of themselves are in violation of EU law is a different question of course, but certainly anything that does end up tracking EU users or collating data about them (particularly given they are not Unity customers - the developers are, and would have to e.g. be the ones to seek consent) is an area with honking great bear traps.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 9:35 PM on September 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Here is HoegLaw's take on it.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:36 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:36 PM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Even assuming all that goes exactly how one might hope it does, it still completely screws over people who have a title in gamepass or playstation plus or something.
Oh, they've covered that one! The fees will accrue to the distributor - so when putting your Unity game on game pass, you as a dev won't have to pay install fees for the bajillion subscribers trying out your game for 10 minutes, it'll be Microsoft on the hook to Unity for it.
I truly wish Unity luck when they rock up for that meeting wanting millions of dollars based on an agreement Microsoft isn't even party to. AND you can bet there's language in the dev license agreements with Microsoft that they're not liable for any 3rd party fees, because they weren't born yesterday! (those agreements are fairly bespoke for differing revenue sharing arrangements depending on the game and under NDA). Maybe Microsoft will just pass those fees on to customers! "Game Pass, now only 7.99 a month, and a 20c fee per game you install!"
But that also raises the question - is Valve not the distributor for games on Steam? Are they expecting on going after Steam, and the Epic Game Store, hell, the Apple App Store and expecting *them* to pay the install fees on behalf of developers?
Unity: "We have top men working on it right now."
Indie Game Dev: "Who?"
Unity: "Top. Men."
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 12:55 AM on September 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
People seemed excited about it but I think it's just a voluntary donation thing.
Meaning, many in the gaming community are ... waiting for Godot?
(Thank you thank you. I'll be here all night!)
posted by the cydonian at 1:40 AM on September 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Meaning, many in the gaming community are ... waiting for Godot?
(Thank you thank you. I'll be here all night!)
posted by the cydonian at 1:40 AM on September 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
(Alright fine. The Godot website itself made the same joke on its hero image. )
posted by the cydonian at 1:42 AM on September 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by the cydonian at 1:42 AM on September 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
I truly wish Unity luck when they rock up for that meeting wanting millions of dollars based on an agreement Microsoft isn't even party to.
I wonder about that. Does it mean they consider steam, itch.io, & epic games store etc. to be on the hook as distribution platforms? It seems ludicrously untenable, but also I guess no more ill considered than any of the rest of it, so who can really say.
posted by juv3nal at 2:28 AM on September 14, 2023
I wonder about that. Does it mean they consider steam, itch.io, & epic games store etc. to be on the hook as distribution platforms? It seems ludicrously untenable, but also I guess no more ill considered than any of the rest of it, so who can really say.
posted by juv3nal at 2:28 AM on September 14, 2023
Theoretically it only applies to 'subscription services', so Game Pass, playstation plus, the uh, EA subscription one; where the dev isn't getting per-copy revenue but would be liable for per-install fees. And I dunno maybe geforce NOW if you squint? But there seems little difference in the rationale that would exclude them making greedy eyes at steam and other game distribution platforms as well if they fancied their chances.
It totally smacks of "we didn't think of that, umm, come up with something quick!" energy though.
The sole source appears to be where Axios has been talking to exec Marc Whitten, "President for Create solutions at Unity"
It totally smacks of "we didn't think of that, umm, come up with something quick!" energy though.
The sole source appears to be where Axios has been talking to exec Marc Whitten, "President for Create solutions at Unity"
As for Game Pass and other subscription services, Whitten said that developers like Aggro Crab would not be on the hook, as the fees are charged to distributors, which in the Game Pass example would be Microsoft.posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 2:57 AM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Slay the Spire developers have announced that they're switching from Unity now.
posted by Spike Glee at 5:52 AM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Spike Glee at 5:52 AM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Slay the Spire developers have announced that they're switching from Unity now.
Quite forcefully, in fact.
posted by Artw at 5:57 AM on September 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Quite forcefully, in fact.
posted by Artw at 5:57 AM on September 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
My friend and I were building a game in Unity. We're praying they reverse course. I don't relish starting over, but I've started reading the Godot docs.
posted by signsofrain at 6:03 AM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by signsofrain at 6:03 AM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Even if they did charge the distribution platform owner, Microsoft or Steam would turn around and pass the cost back down to the developer. Just like sales tax. Or else the platforms themselves will start to reject Unity games. Either way, there is no world where a cost assigned to the distributor doesn't make its way back to become a burden on developers.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:25 AM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:25 AM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Imagine if all the industry players agree to pass the cost down all the way to the consumer and implement a Download Tax you pay every time you install a game. Would you be willing to never buy another game made with Unity ever again?
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:35 AM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:35 AM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Capitalism.
posted by AlSweigart at 7:00 AM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by AlSweigart at 7:00 AM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Would you be willing to never buy another game made with Unity ever again?
It would definitely incentivize people to never pay for a Unity game ever again.
posted by FatherDagon at 7:16 AM on September 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
It would definitely incentivize people to never pay for a Unity game ever again.
posted by FatherDagon at 7:16 AM on September 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Would you be willing to never buy another game made with Unity ever again?
Unity already had a kind of stank on it, lots of people side-eyed it as an engine before this debacle. It turns out it's extremely easy to just not play a game for some reason (e.g., made with Unity, made by Activision, etc.) and just play something else instead. While it absolutely sucks for the people who've already sunk costs into lashing themselves to the Unity mast (so to speak), in 5 years I suspect people will be saying things like "oh do you remember when Unity...?" and laughing.
posted by axiom at 10:05 AM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Unity already had a kind of stank on it, lots of people side-eyed it as an engine before this debacle. It turns out it's extremely easy to just not play a game for some reason (e.g., made with Unity, made by Activision, etc.) and just play something else instead. While it absolutely sucks for the people who've already sunk costs into lashing themselves to the Unity mast (so to speak), in 5 years I suspect people will be saying things like "oh do you remember when Unity...?" and laughing.
posted by axiom at 10:05 AM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Unity already had a kind of stank on it, lots of people side-eyed it as an engine before this debacle. It turns out it's extremely easy to just not play a game for some reason (e.g., made with Unity, made by Activision, etc.) and just play something else instead.
It's harder than you may think to not play Unity games.
Unity is used in about half of all PC and mobile games made today (less so with AAA more with small to mid-sized studio). The reason you don't see "Made with Unity" on their splash screen is that it's optional if you use a paid version. As a result, people tend to associate the splash screen with amateur games, and this has created a cycle where studios with any budget at all remove the splash screen.
Disco Elysium, Return of the Obra Dinn, Hearthstone, Subnautica, Hollow Knight, Gris, Dave the Diver, Spiritfarer, Outer Wilds, and so on, are all made with Unity but their players generally don't know it.
posted by justkevin at 10:26 AM on September 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's harder than you may think to not play Unity games.
Unity is used in about half of all PC and mobile games made today (less so with AAA more with small to mid-sized studio). The reason you don't see "Made with Unity" on their splash screen is that it's optional if you use a paid version. As a result, people tend to associate the splash screen with amateur games, and this has created a cycle where studios with any budget at all remove the splash screen.
Disco Elysium, Return of the Obra Dinn, Hearthstone, Subnautica, Hollow Knight, Gris, Dave the Diver, Spiritfarer, Outer Wilds, and so on, are all made with Unity but their players generally don't know it.
posted by justkevin at 10:26 AM on September 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Unity offices close after death threat (non paywalled link).
Gamers responding extremely rationally to things they don't like, as usual. I swear if the left could harness just 1/10th of the gamer resistance to things they don't like we would have gay luxury space communism in 5 years.
posted by dis_integration at 10:27 AM on September 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
Gamers responding extremely rationally to things they don't like, as usual. I swear if the left could harness just 1/10th of the gamer resistance to things they don't like we would have gay luxury space communism in 5 years.
posted by dis_integration at 10:27 AM on September 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
Sadly I doubt a bunch of pepe frog 4Chan fucks are likely to want to do that.
posted by Artw at 10:52 AM on September 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:52 AM on September 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Pepe The Frog has been reclaimed by the internet and is no longer associated with that movement. That happened a while ago, too.
posted by hippybear at 11:46 AM on September 14, 2023
posted by hippybear at 11:46 AM on September 14, 2023
If someone's posting fascist frogs in a gaming space, I'm not sticking around to make sure they only meant it ironically.
posted by CrystalDave at 11:58 AM on September 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by CrystalDave at 11:58 AM on September 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
Humble Bundle has a Godot bundle available now. Looks like it's at least mostly, and possibly completely, video tutorial courses (as opposed to assets or whatever).
Disclaimer: I know essentially nothing about Godot itself, the contents of this bundle, nor the "Zeneva" company that seems to be behind the tutorials.
posted by Flunkie at 12:07 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Disclaimer: I know essentially nothing about Godot itself, the contents of this bundle, nor the "Zeneva" company that seems to be behind the tutorials.
posted by Flunkie at 12:07 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Godot does look extremely fun - also looks like there’s a bunch of free tutorials.
posted by Artw at 12:51 PM on September 14, 2023
posted by Artw at 12:51 PM on September 14, 2023
> Maybe Microsoft will just pass those fees on to customers! "Game Pass, now only 7.99 a month, and a 20c fee per game you install!"
That's fine, I will just pass on the per-game fee to my kids. And they can pass it on to the tooth fairy.
posted by Phssthpok at 12:52 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's fine, I will just pass on the per-game fee to my kids. And they can pass it on to the tooth fairy.
posted by Phssthpok at 12:52 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm playing with godot right now by implementing a udp protocol for godot to talk to a python subprocess. This way I can build the user interface in godot but run the bulk of the AI and simulation calculations in python to make use of all the data processing packages I have available. Getting the client-server architecture set up seems to be the easiest starting point for me.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:07 PM on September 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:07 PM on September 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I might make a blob move around the screen.
posted by Artw at 1:17 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:17 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Easily some 10% of the videos YouTube is recommending to me today are somehow involved with complaining about Unity.
Barbie didn't even hit these kinds of levels. Maybe TotK did most recently.
posted by hippybear at 2:28 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Barbie didn't even hit these kinds of levels. Maybe TotK did most recently.
posted by hippybear at 2:28 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am very, very curious about what the people inside of Unity thought was going to happen when they made this announcement. I don't know if I'm reading the vibes correctly, but it seemed to me that they were rather ill-prepared to even talk about things like demos, re-installs, and giveaways. Like, wouldn't those be some of the first issues to address? It didn't even seem to me like they had prepared remarks for these and had to scramble to figure out their positioning.
I wonder if they thought that the main audience for this announcement was Wall Street (because they need to do something -- anything -- to boost their profits) and spent all their time thinking about how to make this look appealing to the finance folks and then completely didn't think about what the reaction would be from the people who would actually be paying these fees.
posted by mhum at 4:06 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I wonder if they thought that the main audience for this announcement was Wall Street (because they need to do something -- anything -- to boost their profits) and spent all their time thinking about how to make this look appealing to the finance folks and then completely didn't think about what the reaction would be from the people who would actually be paying these fees.
posted by mhum at 4:06 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
For mhum's edification, the previous XR workflows lead at Unity, who has since resigned, says:
---------------------
The death threat towards Unity is itself a demonstration of why some devs have been so nervous about this monetization scheme; game developers are very familiar with receiving death threats from gamers, as well as facing persistant way-out-of-proportion malicious actors. A producer at the game Rust says that "The Rust cheat community already has a working reinstall script for Rust with a unique HW spoofer on each install". The developers know that there are harassers out there happy to use Unity's new terms to harm them, and don't have any faith in Unity's ability to prevent that. An employee flat out admitting that they haven't actually figured out how to count the installs for this earthquake change happening in three months is not reassuring in the slightest.
Anyway apparently not caring about the details of this charge might make sense if the point isn't to get revenue via the install fee but to strongarm mobile games into using Unity's LevelPlay for advertising monetization instead of the more successful rival's AppLovin platform, by waiving the fee if you do so. If the point isn't to use the installation fee to make money, but to use it as a way to take games hostage and force them onto Unity's advertising platform, then figuring out the exact details of how it works aren't relevant to the real goal. Anyone that doesn't fit in that pattern is, apparently, acceptable collateral damage.
posted by foxfirefey at 5:05 PM on September 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
As a unity employee until this morning, I assure you we fought like hell against this, brought up all the points everyone has, were told answers were coming, and then the announcement went out without warning. Those of us who care are out -- more resignations coming end of week.And a post from an employee on Unity's forums, replicated here in case it disappears:
---------------------
Current Unity employee here. I feel compelled to post something because I'm completely appalled at some of the initial choices for this new pricing model and most importantly at the poor and confusing communications around it.---------------------
I and many, many of my colleagues have had a very bad last 12+ hours. We work hard to give you the tools to create amazing games all the way from indie to large studios. We love celebrating your successes with the Unity engine and many of us are up in arms internally about all this.
Let's explain what the changes are about in plain English:
To focus on a few key points that have somewhat changed since the initial announcements... Sadly the OP and FAQs haven't been fully updated yet with some of these changes.
- Unity needs to generate more revenue to eventually be a profitable company so we can sustain developing Unity for many years to come. Employees need to be paid or there's no engine, as simple as that.
- Many very profitable game studios pay very little to Unity compared to their other costs of business, despite the Unity engine being an essential part of their game/product. The price changes are aimed at this ~10% of customers as a way to scale their costs with success via revenue+installs.
- Yes, there's also a will to bring more users on Unity pro when they use Unity to build a product for a business with meaningful revenue. Sadly, good news of the extended availability of Unity free to larger funding thresholds and some extra features were buried in everything else.
Know also that all of the concerns that are understandably blowing up at the moment have been raised internally by many weeks before this announcement. Why it was decided to rush this out anyway in this way I can only speculate about.
- Installs
- Installs are meant to be per unique user.
- CI, tests, and other automations will not be charged
- We don't want to charge for fraudulent installs (install bombs, piracy, etc.)
- There will not be an embedded "phone home" mechanism
- Unity hasn't actually completely figured out how to count installs yet. Whatever the solution is, it will be conservative. It will potentially/probably undercount installs, but definitely not overcount.
- We will not charge for charities
- For subscription services, Unity will talk with the subscription service's distributor, not the game creator
- There will be an online calculator very soon (TM) to model your potential costs
- Yes, in this current form, it's possible for successful games with very high install counts and low enough per-install revenue to lose money when more people install their game.
- When this is raised internally, the answer is "we would fix this with the customer to not bankrupt them". It would be great to prevent this upstream in the actual policy.
Personal hopes for further corrections to this pricing model:Take care of each other, and take a break from all this for your mental health if you need it.
- Address point 5 above so we don't punish success
- Reverse course to charge per-install fees to already published games (that still generate sizable revenue)
- And change the terms to guarantee that a similar retroactive price change can never happen again!
- Get our act together in terms of comms and marketing to avoid generating so much needless panic and anxiety both from you all and internally.
And don't stop respectfully yelling at crazy ideas so they can be corrected.
The death threat towards Unity is itself a demonstration of why some devs have been so nervous about this monetization scheme; game developers are very familiar with receiving death threats from gamers, as well as facing persistant way-out-of-proportion malicious actors. A producer at the game Rust says that "The Rust cheat community already has a working reinstall script for Rust with a unique HW spoofer on each install". The developers know that there are harassers out there happy to use Unity's new terms to harm them, and don't have any faith in Unity's ability to prevent that. An employee flat out admitting that they haven't actually figured out how to count the installs for this earthquake change happening in three months is not reassuring in the slightest.
Anyway apparently not caring about the details of this charge might make sense if the point isn't to get revenue via the install fee but to strongarm mobile games into using Unity's LevelPlay for advertising monetization instead of the more successful rival's AppLovin platform, by waiving the fee if you do so. If the point isn't to use the installation fee to make money, but to use it as a way to take games hostage and force them onto Unity's advertising platform, then figuring out the exact details of how it works aren't relevant to the real goal. Anyone that doesn't fit in that pattern is, apparently, acceptable collateral damage.
posted by foxfirefey at 5:05 PM on September 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
Thanks, foxfirefey, for this. This is basically what I suspected, i.e.: upper management rolled this out rather prematurely, over the objections of rank-and-file employees.
Unity hasn't actually completely figured out how to count installs yet.
No, of course they haven't. Upper management probably just assumes that this is doable (along with the fraud/botnet detection, etc...). If they find out in 6 months that it actually isn't doable, then what? Probably nothing, they can just report whatever random, un-auditable numbers they want and just demand people to pay.
When this is raised internally, the answer is "we would fix this with the customer to not bankrupt them"
Now, I understand that this statement was aimed at answering Unity employees' concerns, but it seems like this is basically also the stance they're taking externally. To which I gotta say ell to the fucking em-ay-oh, who in their right mind would trust this company any more at this point?
And change the terms to guarantee that a similar retroactive price change can never happen again!
Yeah, I don't see how this can work without some kind of judicial decision to bind them. If they've already changed their TOS once, changing it again to say the TOS cannot be changed in this way again does not sound very reassuring.
posted by mhum at 5:38 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Unity hasn't actually completely figured out how to count installs yet.
No, of course they haven't. Upper management probably just assumes that this is doable (along with the fraud/botnet detection, etc...). If they find out in 6 months that it actually isn't doable, then what? Probably nothing, they can just report whatever random, un-auditable numbers they want and just demand people to pay.
When this is raised internally, the answer is "we would fix this with the customer to not bankrupt them"
Now, I understand that this statement was aimed at answering Unity employees' concerns, but it seems like this is basically also the stance they're taking externally. To which I gotta say ell to the fucking em-ay-oh, who in their right mind would trust this company any more at this point?
And change the terms to guarantee that a similar retroactive price change can never happen again!
Yeah, I don't see how this can work without some kind of judicial decision to bind them. If they've already changed their TOS once, changing it again to say the TOS cannot be changed in this way again does not sound very reassuring.
posted by mhum at 5:38 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
"I am altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further."
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:56 PM on September 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:56 PM on September 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Update on the death threat: it came from a Unity employee.
posted by skycrashesdown at 6:49 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by skycrashesdown at 6:49 PM on September 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Unity employees, a land of contrasts.
posted by Artw at 8:10 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:10 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
How about we make it so contract clauses allowing one party to unilaterally redefine the purpose of the contract are unenforceable? I love Godot and I love OSS, but it really shouldn't have to be a binary choice between full open source versus the cult of private equity/venture capital/quarterly earnings ghouls.
posted by Riki tiki at 8:24 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Riki tiki at 8:24 PM on September 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
It does seem the shitty part is them monetizing projects that begin before Jan 1, 2024. The contract the developers entered into HAS been unilaterally changed, but that doesn't mean that it should begin in the manner in which the company says it should.
I wonder if there's some federal agency that should be stepping in about this.
posted by hippybear at 8:30 PM on September 14, 2023
I wonder if there's some federal agency that should be stepping in about this.
posted by hippybear at 8:30 PM on September 14, 2023
My local library system allows you to borrow video games. I don't know how they source those games - if they buy it outright from the developers, if there's some kind of main distributor, if they get donated copies, etc. I also don't know if they have to pay licensing fees.
Are they going to be on the hook if Unity counts libraries as distributors? How will temporary installs be calculated - based on the number of people that have borrowed the game in the library's history? Will libraries start charging for games or will they just not bother stocking them anymore?
posted by creatrixtiara at 10:49 PM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Are they going to be on the hook if Unity counts libraries as distributors? How will temporary installs be calculated - based on the number of people that have borrowed the game in the library's history? Will libraries start charging for games or will they just not bother stocking them anymore?
posted by creatrixtiara at 10:49 PM on September 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also Cult of the Lamb isn't actually going to delist their game
posted by creatrixtiara at 11:44 PM on September 14, 2023
posted by creatrixtiara at 11:44 PM on September 14, 2023
GameDeveloper: Unity's Just Not Into You, Indie Developer:
When looking at these numbers, looking at the direction of Unity over the past few years, and looking at Unity’s management, it is quite clear that this is just the next step on the path Unity has been on for some time. It is a F2P services company that also provides a game engine as a service, and it is going to continue to develop in that direction.posted by foxfirefey at 9:24 AM on September 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
...
The many indie developers who will be left by the roadside are completely incidental to Unity’s goals, and are not going to be a significant factor in its future decision making. As a developer, you have to assume that Unity will make more decisions like this that will harm you, because it just doesn’t care about what you do.
> Unity is in deep trouble. You don't need 8,000 employees to make and ship a game engine.
This is the key problem. Markets have a size. Fifty or so people could make a really good living as a coop building and improving a game engine and charging for it. This is how Franz, Inc. has operated for decades with their Common Lisp. The market for game engines is probably bigger than that for Common Lisp systems, but the margins for their customers are probably much lower.
Instead the company got shoved on an IPO track, raised funding...with no one pointing out that this was never going to be a unicorn because the market isn't going to support a unicorn. This was doomed from the beginning. But their current CEO and his ilk don't know how to run a company longterm, just how to repeat a particular financial playbook whether it is relevant or not.
posted by madhadron at 11:32 AM on September 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is the key problem. Markets have a size. Fifty or so people could make a really good living as a coop building and improving a game engine and charging for it. This is how Franz, Inc. has operated for decades with their Common Lisp. The market for game engines is probably bigger than that for Common Lisp systems, but the margins for their customers are probably much lower.
Instead the company got shoved on an IPO track, raised funding...with no one pointing out that this was never going to be a unicorn because the market isn't going to support a unicorn. This was doomed from the beginning. But their current CEO and his ilk don't know how to run a company longterm, just how to repeat a particular financial playbook whether it is relevant or not.
posted by madhadron at 11:32 AM on September 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
The market for game engines is probably bigger than that for Common Lisp systems
Lol you think?
posted by Nelson at 12:08 PM on September 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lol you think?
posted by Nelson at 12:08 PM on September 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wait, is Unity allowed to just change its fee structure like that? Detailed armchair legal analysis from Ars Technica of the various changing license terms Unity has offered over the years. It seems destined for negotiation or legal action.
posted by Nelson at 12:24 PM on September 15, 2023
posted by Nelson at 12:24 PM on September 15, 2023
I am very, very curious about what the people inside of Unity thought was going to happen when they made this announcement.I'm guessing it strongly depends on exactly who inside of Unity you're talking about, but in the case of the people who decided this was going to happen, I bet:
"FREE MONEY!"
posted by Flunkie at 3:44 PM on September 15, 2023
It seems destined for negotiation or legal action
There doesn't seem to be a lot of grounds to succeed though. The primary terms basically let Unity change the ToS at will at any future point, while the terms describing being able to 'freeze' the ToS were quietly removed a little while back, and were in supplementary terms. Plus being a business-to-business contract, there's a lot less protections compared to consumer protection against unconscionable terms, because businesses are presumed to be on a more equal footing, and able to hire their own lawyers before they sign something.
There is an argument to be made on promissory estoppel from what I've seen (I am not a lawyer, obviously); basically, if you make a promise that you will (or won't) do something, and another party relies on that promise - and you then turn around and break your promise, they can recover the financial harm directly caused by doing so. But given the main terms basically said 'we can do what we like, when we like and your only option is to stop using our software', it's not exactly a slam dunk - especially when a business can indeed just walk away, stop using Unity entirely and not owe them any money.
The most likely option to succeed is probably where companies did build a game using an older version of Unity from say, 2021 or older, predating when the terms were weakened, and haven't updated that game since so have the best argument for saying we shouldn't have to pull that game from the market because the ToS at the time said we could keep using this old version with a fixed ToS, i.e. pre-fees; and if they won, they could indeed keep using the old ToS as long as they don't update their version of Unity. Developers who are using a recent version of Unity, or have yet to launch the game are probably stuck with having to cough up fees (assuming they're making enough sales) or cut Unity out of their software though.
Unity are fairly clearly swivelling towards extracting more money from the F2P market (especially on mobile) - either by extracting installs rent, or discounting that by getting them onto the other Unity services - to become a cloud services-and-ads platform first, with a game engine attached, in effect. That successful indies are an immediately obvious casualty of this plan doesn't appear to be of concern, and it doesn't bode well for future improvements to the engine either.
The other course of action that could succeed would be disputing how Unity count installs once the new terms come into effect - their 'pick-a-guess-out-of-a-hat-but-using-AI' mechanism is a pretty novel approach. Normally you ask the dev how many sales they have (being as they're in a position to know!) and calculate fees on that basis, with the right to audit how the dev got those numbers if they look sus. But you'd still be stuck with the install fee itself, even if you manage to sue to get the black box number adjusted down; better to run away from Unity entirely.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:55 PM on September 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
There doesn't seem to be a lot of grounds to succeed though. The primary terms basically let Unity change the ToS at will at any future point, while the terms describing being able to 'freeze' the ToS were quietly removed a little while back, and were in supplementary terms. Plus being a business-to-business contract, there's a lot less protections compared to consumer protection against unconscionable terms, because businesses are presumed to be on a more equal footing, and able to hire their own lawyers before they sign something.
There is an argument to be made on promissory estoppel from what I've seen (I am not a lawyer, obviously); basically, if you make a promise that you will (or won't) do something, and another party relies on that promise - and you then turn around and break your promise, they can recover the financial harm directly caused by doing so. But given the main terms basically said 'we can do what we like, when we like and your only option is to stop using our software', it's not exactly a slam dunk - especially when a business can indeed just walk away, stop using Unity entirely and not owe them any money.
The most likely option to succeed is probably where companies did build a game using an older version of Unity from say, 2021 or older, predating when the terms were weakened, and haven't updated that game since so have the best argument for saying we shouldn't have to pull that game from the market because the ToS at the time said we could keep using this old version with a fixed ToS, i.e. pre-fees; and if they won, they could indeed keep using the old ToS as long as they don't update their version of Unity. Developers who are using a recent version of Unity, or have yet to launch the game are probably stuck with having to cough up fees (assuming they're making enough sales) or cut Unity out of their software though.
Unity are fairly clearly swivelling towards extracting more money from the F2P market (especially on mobile) - either by extracting installs rent, or discounting that by getting them onto the other Unity services - to become a cloud services-and-ads platform first, with a game engine attached, in effect. That successful indies are an immediately obvious casualty of this plan doesn't appear to be of concern, and it doesn't bode well for future improvements to the engine either.
The other course of action that could succeed would be disputing how Unity count installs once the new terms come into effect - their 'pick-a-guess-out-of-a-hat-but-using-AI' mechanism is a pretty novel approach. Normally you ask the dev how many sales they have (being as they're in a position to know!) and calculate fees on that basis, with the right to audit how the dev got those numbers if they look sus. But you'd still be stuck with the install fee itself, even if you manage to sue to get the black box number adjusted down; better to run away from Unity entirely.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:55 PM on September 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Unity engine proposed fees leave video game developers confused and outraged
posted by Artw at 8:48 PM on September 15, 2023
posted by Artw at 8:48 PM on September 15, 2023
I'd be curious, with this announcement and probably a lot of dev classes or people newly wanting to try out game development maybe starting right about how, how much Unity's developer kit download numbers are doing compared to, say, a month ago. Or a year ago.
posted by hippybear at 11:53 AM on September 16, 2023
posted by hippybear at 11:53 AM on September 16, 2023
Unity’s Trap. Indie game developer and journalist Tom Francis writes about a sense of betrayal of trusting Unity and having the licensing rug pulled out from under them.
if you offer me Unity 2019 at $150 a month, it’s a scumbag move to wait til I’m too far invested to switch, then change it to a per-install deal even if I keep using the old version.posted by Nelson at 2:48 PM on September 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
It should be more than a scumbag move. It should be illegal to change the terms retroactively. Hoping a friendly court will enforce a Promissory Estoppel claim is not a strong enough protection here. Has there ever been a successful class action promissory estoppel case before?
posted by I-Write-Essays at 5:14 PM on September 17, 2023
posted by I-Write-Essays at 5:14 PM on September 17, 2023
Update:
>"We have heard you. We apologize for the confusion and angst the runtime fee policy we announced on Tuesday caused. We are listening, talking to our team members, community, customers, and partners, and will be making changes to the policy. We will share an update in a couple of days. Thank you for your honest and critical feedback."
https://twitter.com/unity/status/1703547752205218265
posted by rifflesby at 5:59 PM on September 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
>"We have heard you. We apologize for the confusion and angst the runtime fee policy we announced on Tuesday caused. We are listening, talking to our team members, community, customers, and partners, and will be making changes to the policy. We will share an update in a couple of days. Thank you for your honest and critical feedback."
https://twitter.com/unity/status/1703547752205218265
posted by rifflesby at 5:59 PM on September 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Overshoot and Back Off."
Extreme demands followed up by small, slow concessions. Perhaps the most common of all hard-bargaining tactics, this one protects dealmakers from making concessions too quickly. However, it can keep parties from making a deal and unnecessarily drag out business negotiations. To head off this tactic, have a clear sense of your own goals, best alternative to a negotiated agreement (BATNA), and bottom line – and don’t be rattled by an aggressive opponent. [1]
They haven't learned anything, they're just following the standard negotiation playbook. They have generated so much chaos, negotiations start with their executives resigning.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:09 PM on September 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
Extreme demands followed up by small, slow concessions. Perhaps the most common of all hard-bargaining tactics, this one protects dealmakers from making concessions too quickly. However, it can keep parties from making a deal and unnecessarily drag out business negotiations. To head off this tactic, have a clear sense of your own goals, best alternative to a negotiated agreement (BATNA), and bottom line – and don’t be rattled by an aggressive opponent. [1]
They haven't learned anything, they're just following the standard negotiation playbook. They have generated so much chaos, negotiations start with their executives resigning.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 6:09 PM on September 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
Some of the quote tweets on that "apology" are hilarious.
"angst" is such a word choice here. We apologize about the ennui you felt. Sorry this very pointed change of policy created melancholy.
Nobody's confused. I have never seen a community *less* confused. Everyone perfectly understands the shit you're trying to pull
We have heard you. We are listening. Every time we listen, that counts as an install. If we listen again, that's 2 installs.
posted by mediareport at 5:54 AM on September 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
"angst" is such a word choice here. We apologize about the ennui you felt. Sorry this very pointed change of policy created melancholy.
Nobody's confused. I have never seen a community *less* confused. Everyone perfectly understands the shit you're trying to pull
We have heard you. We are listening. Every time we listen, that counts as an install. If we listen again, that's 2 installs.
posted by mediareport at 5:54 AM on September 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
What has been the result thus far of the whole WOTC thing? Last I really heard anything about it was after their (seeming) unconditional surrender (which was pretty quick on the heels of their patronizing concessionless "Hooray! Everybody's a winner!" statement, which in turn followed their "We have heard you; thank you for your feedback", which seems to be the stage that Unity is at now). Has that basically held up? Has the community (generally) been satisfied with WOTC's behavior since then?
posted by Flunkie at 2:24 PM on September 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Flunkie at 2:24 PM on September 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lately the community is mad that WOTC published a book with shitty AI art, but everyone's too busy playing (WOTC-licensed) Baldurs Gate 3 to actually complain about it.
The companies that promised to make knockoff DnD 5e books are currently in the writing stage and not for sale yet.
posted by fomhar at 2:39 PM on September 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
The companies that promised to make knockoff DnD 5e books are currently in the writing stage and not for sale yet.
posted by fomhar at 2:39 PM on September 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
If we go by the WotC playbook, Unity's next move will be to send the Pinkertons after Unity devs.
posted by Tenuki at 3:07 PM on September 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Tenuki at 3:07 PM on September 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Unity reportedly told dev Planned Parenthood and children's hospital are "not valid charities"
Developers of indie puzzle game Orgynizer have claimed that Unity said organisations like Planned Parenthood are "not valid charities" and are instead "political groups."
You are dead to me.
posted by adept256 at 10:59 PM on September 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Developers of indie puzzle game Orgynizer have claimed that Unity said organisations like Planned Parenthood are "not valid charities" and are instead "political groups."
You are dead to me.
posted by adept256 at 10:59 PM on September 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Verge: Unity announces its revamped pricing model.
Unity's blog: An open letter to our community.
posted by Nelson at 3:27 PM on September 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Unity's blog: An open letter to our community.
posted by Nelson at 3:27 PM on September 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
"I’d like to invite you to join me for a live fireside chat hosted by Jason Weimann today at 4:00 pm ET/1:00 pm PT, where I will do my best to answer your questions." (from the "open letter to our community")
I wonder how many of those questions were variants of "what moron thought these changes would be acceptable and have they been fired yet".
posted by egypturnash at 4:35 PM on September 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I wonder how many of those questions were variants of "what moron thought these changes would be acceptable and have they been fired yet".
posted by egypturnash at 4:35 PM on September 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
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